Incredible argument between Jeff Durbin and an Agnostic

The Challenge of Martyrdom and Sincerity

Why would the Jonestown people sit there and, you know, commit mass suicide?

They were dying for what they thought was true. But the disciples were dying for what they could confirm was true or not.

Right. It's one thing to be sincerely wrong. It's another thing to know that you're wrong and then die for that.

But not to be too contrary to you guys. Like, I think they're saying, I know. And, like, reasserting what you're, like, you're very happy to know, no offense or whatnot, doesn't really, isn't really evidence in and of itself.

So you're like, oh, like, they didn't know. We know. And we believe them. So, like, I agree with them. Like, I really feel like that isn't really a statement in and of itself. It isn't really, like, a...

Do you mind if I say?

Sure. I'm Jeff, by the way. How are you, Eli? Nice to meet you. I would, I think I would start at the bottom. And, you know, you're talking a lot about evidence, talk a lot about proof. And yet you profess to not believe in God.

The Agnostic's View of Evidence and Belief in God

I profess that I'm not an atheist and I'm not, like, I'm not, like, I'm not a Christian. I was raised Baptist and whatnot. I wasn't really given enough evidence to sit there and, you know, fully go towards, you know, believing in any kind of deity.

Whether it be, like, you know, an impersonal one like Ben Franklin believed in or, like, an actual personal deity. So I don't believe anything in that sense. But I'm also, you know, not, like, so, like, like, my hatred of, like, all things religion does not sit there and make me say there is no God and therefore I can make the claim that, you know, that an atheist does.

That there is nothing and I know there's nothing. You're more of an agnostic. Yes.

Okay. Okay. So here's what I would say to you. God says that he's so clearly known, he showed himself to all of us, that we're without excuse for denying him. So God's claim is that you do know him but your problem isn't a lack of light or evidence.

It's like me before Christ and all of us, our sin before God causes us to suppress that truth. And if I could just sort of, like, ask you to think through something for a second. Sure. You bring up all these comments about evidence and proof.

But evidence and proof would necessitate at its bottom a dependence upon the uniformity in nature, laws of logic being necessary, being universal and absolute ultimately and unchanging. It would necessitate, when you're asked for proof, the moral requirement that I'm honest with you and I have integrity to present the truth, right?

Now all those things, with your rejection of God, are irrelevant and not necessary. In other words, we can't depend upon the uniformity in nature. We have no certainty the future will be like the past.

I feel like this is a bit of a left turn from what you're going from and what not. But rather than sit there and stay on the rhetoric of absolutism, I feel like if we're going to sit there and try to refute Christianity, I'll go from the infallibility of the Bible and go from this idea that God exists beyond our plane, that his logic is beyond ours, to sit there and go, like, why this, why that, is to sit there and futilely try to understand the logic of God, and God is just beyond us, he's smarter than all of us.

All of that. I would say that. I feel like that's a hard stretch for me, to sit there and even think about the apostles, like they died for the truth, because the book that's talking about them is, well, flawed in the historicity of it, which would then be torn apart by any school.

That's merely a claim that I would reject. I would fully reject. But I would point out to you that you just avoided the challenge I presented to you that would even allow you to speak about flaws and inconsistencies.

In other words, your rejection of God has led you to a place where flaws and inconsistencies are irrelevant. If you don't have God, you don't have a basis for logic as a necessary thing, you don't have a basis for the uniformity of nature to appeal to evidence.

The Basis for Logic, Uniformity, and Moral Truth

So you're saying rational thought never existed before God?

No, I'm saying that God is in himself the standard of all consistent thinking and truth, and apart from him, you can't make any...

Oh, okay, so it's pretty much up there with the logic of, like, oh, okay, this doctor sits there and prescribes this medicine for this,.

But thank God for creating medicine. No, you're not understanding. What I'm saying to you is this, is that your rejection of God has led you to a place where you have no basis to make any appeal to evidence, laws of logic, or even integrity right now in this discussion.

Your rejection of God has led you to a place the Bible calls foolishness, because you're going to sit here and argue for appeals to evidence and for logic and everything else, but you have absolutely no basis for it because you've rejected your creator.

And that's a problem of our sin. It's not a problem of light and evidence for you, it's a problem of our sin. That's why Jesus came to die for sinners and rose from the dead, so we might have forgiveness in life, be reconciled to God.

And I'd say, just not to insult you or anything, but I'd say that's a very convenient way of dismissing everything that people say. No, I'm dismissing...

It may seem convenient to you because you don't have an answer for it, but you haven't provided even an attempt to respond. Because, like, how do I put it?

I don't like to respond to, like, you know, double binds here, you know what I mean? It's kind of like...

I'm asking you a very simple question. Give me a rational justification, something that provides the preconditions for intelligibility, for even the uniformity in nature that the future be like the past.

This whole question here about proof and evidence depends upon you.

How do you know... I don't think anybody has ever, like, you know, made the claim that, you know, the future is going to be like the past, that there is this consistency...

Well, you're assuming it right now and asking for proof. Okay, then don't ask for proof. If you're not assuming it, don't ask for proof. Proof depends upon induction, the future uniformity in nature.

Hold on, so you didn't mean, like, you know, the progression of, like, you know, the change of, like, organisms over time, okay? No, right now you're standing here. I'll point out to you what I mean.

Do you know what induction means? Induction is the future. Be like the past. That past experience... Oh, okay. The future experience will be congruent with the past experience.

And listen, right now... Oh, no, no, no, I understand what you mean. It's like, okay, it's like... It's like to sit there and, like, you know, sit there and use, like, you know, like gravity is, like, uh...

Not just gravity. No, like, or anything. Like, I'm just using gravity because that's one of the things that, like, every scientist is there and say is, like, a consistent... Yeah. ...governing principle that has been there since the dawn of time.

You know, like, gravity. You sit there and, like, say, like, you know, gravity... Well, number one, they don't know that. And number two, they can't depend upon it in the future because they live apart from God in a universe that's...

Okay, no, no. Okay, okay. Let me finish. I have a response to that. Let me finish. Okay, sure. Time and chance acting on matter. Apart from a sovereign God governing the universe, giving personal order to it, time and chance acting on matter does not...

I feel like... ...uniformity in nature. I feel like... A dependence upon it. So what's your... Uniformity. Uniformity in nature is the absolute basis of everything we're doing right now. Now, I want you to give me a justification with your rejection of God.

No personal order. No sovereign God governing all things. Give me a basis for certainty the future be like the past.

God's Sovereignty, Sin, and the Ground of Human Knowledge

Oh, okay. So you're saying that, like, you know, without God we can't rely on the laws of matter?

Absolutely. You can't... You have no certainty the future be like the past. Oh, okay.

So we can't sit there and, like, rely on, like, scientific absolutes because God created these scientific absolutes to begin with? No, you're... No, no. You're... No.

No, no. It's a category error. I'm saying, very simply, you're asking for proof and evidence. You're depending upon uniformity in nature, but your rejection of God has led you to a place where that is an absolutely irrelevant thing to be challenging on.

Now, with me as a Christian, I have a basis for asking for proof. I have a basis for asking for evidence. I have a basis for objective truth. You've rejected God. You have none. You've given it up.

You already gave it up. Wow. And once again, I come back to the point that I think that's convenient that you can sit there and ignore everything I say just because... No, I'm not ignoring you. I'm actually...

No, you feel like I'm in the realm of foolishness because, you know, I don't accept your God.

You reject your creator and so you've been reduced to foolishness. And listen, can I offer you a challenge? No, not stupid. I didn't know...

Foolish, like, it's a biblical way of saying, like, oh, you know nothing because you don't know God.

No, I didn't say... No, actually, you do know God, but you're suppressing the truth about Him. You know Him, and your problem isn't a lack of lighter evidence. It's your sin, like me, and like everyone out here.

We're all sinners before God.

So everybody previous to the birth of Christ, you know, like, what was there, you know... They were all sinners, too. All born of the same parents. And none of them given, like, you know, the chance to sit there and review themselves through Christ in person.

Okay, well, you're changing the subject now, away from the point we were talking about.

But those are sinners who... No, no, no, I thought, like, God's love was always consistent, you know. Well, God is loving and everything.

God has always been loving and He's loving to you right now, even with your dependence upon Him. Even though God is calling for genocide and said, go forth, Ezekiel, and kill all the... Well, you don't have any problem...

You don't have any problem with genocide. I have a problem with genocide. No, you don't. You've rejected God. You don't have any basis for being morally indignant about anything. You've rejected your Creator.

Oh, okay, okay. So seeing as that is the ultimate, like, you know, display of, like, arrogance here, nothing else I say really has credibility.

No, I'm showing you, I'm pointing out to you that your rejection of God has led you to absolute absurdity. You need to choose God or absurdity. And it's your sin that's in the way. And if you turn to Christ...

And I feel like I'm being given a false choice here. Like, you know, my choices are Heaven, Hell, and that's it.

No, it's God or your sin. It's the same thing. You need to put it in a different category.

God or your sin. It's God or nothing is basically what it is. No, it's God or your sin. And I would point out to you that...

God or this world. I would point out to you that you haven't even attempted an answer to justify even the most basic things of life right now. The most basic things of life. Laws of logic, rationality, truthfulness in discussion, integrity and uniformity in nature.

That's where your rejection of God has left you.

The Call to Christ and the Final Appeal

You're saying that an absolute, you know, i .e. God is needed to sit there and understand anything in this world.

I'm saying the true and living God is the very basis and foundation.

For all that you're doing right now. And... It sounds like you're making more of an absolutist argument. More than you're making like a Jesus Christ is the...

No, I'm telling you about there is only one God. And yes, Jesus is God. I'm not coming to you from some sort of theistic there's something out there. I'm coming to you with the message of the true and living God, the God that you do know.

And listen, you and I have the same problem. I'm not different than you. I'm under God's grace. I'm not better than you, smarter than you. Nothing. We're all sinners. And it's our sin that gets us into a position, my friend, to where we would actually live in God's world according to God's truth but deny it with our profession.

You're living like a Christian right now depending upon laws of logic that are universal and unchanging and necessary. You're living like a Christian and your dependence upon uniformity in nature. You're living like a Christian and you're decrying moral atrocities, right?

You're acting like those are image-bearers of God but you've rejected God. You've already given that up.

Well, I mean, the fact that I don't really know enough from a year since the third and, you know, really give like a good argument as to, you know, why I feel like I don't... I'm not absurd just because I reject God.

Like, I've had a good time discussing with you if that makes any sense. Like, I actually do have to get back. Okay, well, let me just encourage you. My name is Jeff. I'm Eli. Eli. Right on. Good name, man.

My brother's Joshua and my younger brother's Paul. Listen. I wanted to say one last thing to you.

I care very deeply for you. Thank you. And I want you to know that my being out here today, even talking to you, I consider a privilege and an honor. And I want you to just think about something. You're going to walk down that street right now.

You're going to depend upon uniformity in nature, laws of logic, integrity. You're going to live like a Christian. But it's not... It's not a lack of evidence, my friend. It's all of us are sinners. God is love.

He died for sinners and rose from the dead. You can come to him for life. Okay? God bless you, man. Thank you. All right, man. Have a good one. Uh-huh.