June 29, 2017 Show with Dr. Terry Mortenson on “The Great Turning Point: The Church’s Catastrophic Mistake on Geology… Before Darwin!”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 29th day of June 2017, and I'm delighted to have back on the program Dr. Terry Mortenson. He is a historian of geology and researcher for Answers in Genesis, and he's the author of a number of books, including the one we'll be discussing today, The Great Turning Point, The Church's Catastrophic Mistake on Geology Before Darwin.

It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr. Terry Mortenson. Well, good to be with you, Chris. And in studio with me is my visiting co-host, Charlie Liebert, the founder of sixdaycreation .com.

Great to have you back in the studio, Charlie. Thank you, Chris. Great to be here. If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question for Dr. Terry Mortenson, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Charles Lyell, Darwin, and the Church’s Shift to Old-Earth Thinking

Well, a lot of the information that we have discussed in regard to the age of the earth and in regard to evolution and so on, a lot of that content involved Charles Darwin. But it's interesting that The Great Turning Point, this book that you have written, deals with this issue, corrupting Christianity before Darwin.

If you could explain what was the catalyst behind writing this book and how you discovered this corruption of scientific thought within the church before.

Charles Darwin. Well, I was in seminary for many years over in Eastern Europe and I had a burden to study. Then I went back to seminary and I had already been studying the scientific side of the question for over 14 years.

And as I was doing that, I thought, I want, and I, from my reading at that point, and a group of authors that collectively became known as The Scripts, and I thought, that's what I'm going to do. My thesis is of geology and on some controversy.

It was like a neon sign for me and to dig into. Actually, Darwin was going on. How that idea developed is response to those. That's funny that you.

Mentioned the name Lyle because there's actually a young earth creationist named Jason Lyle.

Yeah, that's L-I-S-L-E. The other one is L-Y. So, what did the church believe about the age of the earth before Darwin? Well, what I document in other writings, stories, were all hold a young earth view.

I document this in my book, most of them, and to reject that view, 19th century thing, the gap theory of Genesis, of Noah's flood. Now, why did they so quickly catch onto this? And tell.

Us more about this old earth Lyle, not our contemporary with us, Jason Lyle, the young earth.

Creationist. Yeah, well, in my study, I've come to the conviction that the Enlightenment was when the Enlightenment, of course, in the 17th and 18th century, of modern science. But modern science was born in the womb of the Christian world and Kepler and Galileo and on and on into the 19th century.

Founders of the different disciplines of modern science, beginning to unravel as the Enlightenment and observation and observation manipulate the world technology. So, in the in the groove life and is becoming the queen of knowledge and the queen of knowledge, very much how things were in fossils.

So, tell us about this individual that you mentioned, Lyle, who was such a great influence, unfortunately, upon Charles Darwin was actually trained in law at Oxford University. Lyle was, and he argued that the result of slow gradual process, now he didn't come up with the idea of millions of years or long ages.

There were three volume work beginning in 18th and closed on a lot of people that his now I have heard known as uniformitarianism, because he said the processes of geological change have always been going on in the past at the same rate and frequency and powers and in sedimentation.

And one of the things that kind of took the wind out.

Of my sails is when I found out that one of my Christian heroes from the 19th century, B .B. Warfield, one of the great minds of Princeton Seminary before the liberals really took the institution over and brought it down to the horrible state theologically that it is today.

But there was a time when Princeton was a very biblically sound think tank, if you will, of great minds. And I was just so disappointed to learn that B .B. Warfield, I don't know if he was 100 convinced of Darwinianism and the old age of the earth and so on, but I know that he at least had a great impact upon his way of thinking where he at the very least offered it as a very plausible, if not probable, answer to the questions on the.

Age of the earth. Do you know how he became corrupted in that way? So he had these ideas before becoming a Christian. Sure. Yeah, because from my research initially came out in 1859, although it was scientists.

Why were the scientists opposing Darwin? What's that? Why were scientists opposing Darwin at that time? Because they knew the science and Darwin hadn't even come close to presenting scientific evidence.

And they being very convinced that living creatures exhibited the design. And of course, since they were contemporaries of his,.

They knew that he was not a scientist, really. They knew that he wasn't somebody to be respected.

In the field of science. Yeah, well, he was a good naturalist and observed all kinds of things.

And he went on that trip. I know plenty of people in New York City that do that,.

But they're not scientists. Yeah, he made a five-year voyage around the world in 1831 and logical formations. But when he went on that trip, he took Charles Lyell's principles of geology on the boat with him.

And he said, if you want to understand my theory, you just need to understand Charles Lyell's thinking. Because my ideas, half came out of Charles Lyell's head. He would have died in the womb, if unanimously.

But by 1850, most of it, almost the whole church was dying off, reproducing them. How the universities did it, societies in different countries, 19th century. A number of reasons why Princeton went downhill in the field.

But I think that with the millions of years and toying with the idea of evolution under the, under the prophet, I think it contributed, not only there, but.

What were the religious backgrounds of Charles Lyell and Darwin, Charles Darwin?

Well, Darwin, Darwin had a Unitarian mother and a father who was some people try to present Darwin and Darwin even in what he said. Now, how about Charles Lyell? Charles Lyell was, these guys were masters at giving a nod to God in their writings to keep Victorian England, into the 19th century, real good idea.

If you wanted to be socially acceptable,.

Would that be something similar that was going on here in the states in North America?

And thinking maybe, and the impact of the evangelical awakening.

So you mean, you mean less of a resistance to the atheistic and evolutionistic ideas would be here in the, in the United States and in North America?

No, I think, I think more resistance.

More, even though there was not a, a church state and so on?

And the negatives of having like we have in the states, but Britain and America, that's where the European continent had already been. To my knowledge, there weren't very many people are fighting. One of the most power is a small country with lots of seacoast of geology.

In fact, the first geological society in the world.

Uniformitarianism, Lyell’s Geology, and the Age of the Rocks

We have a listener in Ben Salem, Pennsylvania. Her name is Jenny. She has two questions. I am stumped on how Charles Lyle determined the age of rocks. What was his thesis? That's her first question.

Determining the age of rocks in any specific, which were formed over long, long ages, because, and they were, they were back in, he wrote in one letter to one of his good uniformitarian buddies, who was also a member of parliament, that he wanted to free the quote, to free the science of geology from Moses.

Wow.

Isn't that an odd statement?

Yeah.

He was, he was, he was attacking the nation and the flood and the age of the earth. And it makes perfect, you can form.

And Jenny's second question to you is I saw the recent movie is Genesis history. Have you seen it? And if so, what is your opinion concerning this movie?

We'll need to watch it and really ponder what is being said.

Yeah, I saw it on Netflix advertised. So I definitely will watch that then.

The scientific community today has done a very good job of brainwashing almost the whole world into thinking not only that evolution documentary.

Are these all young earth creationists?

They're all young earth creation from a mail order catch. They got them from only evolution. Yeah, because it's their degrees the hard way.

Yeah, it's a shame that some of our old earth brothers and sisters in Christ use the same rhetoric against young earth creationists as the atheistic secular scientists. Well, thank you, Jenny, for your excellent questions.

And you have won a free copy of the book that we are addressing today. The Great Turning Point, The Church's Catastrophic Mistake on Geology Before Darwin. And we thank New Leaf Publishing Group for supplying these books for our listeners today.

And we also thank Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service for sending us these copies. Well, I'm sorry for sending you, those who win the book. We thank Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service for shipping them out at no cost to you or to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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And we're going to go to a break right now. And what I'm going to do, Dr. Mortensen, is I'm going to email you two questions from another listener who is actually a scientist. Her name is Deborah from Durango, Colorado.

And her questions are fairly lengthy. So I think it's a good idea if I forward you her two questions so you could look them over a bit while we are on a station break. And then I will read the questions one by one when we return from the break.

So I'm assuming you're near a computer where you can read these fairly quickly. So I just sent you the two questions now. And if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, c-h-r-i-s-a-r-n-z-e-n at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, at least your city and state and your country of residence. If you live outside of the good old USA, don't go away. We'll be right back with Dr. Terry Mortensen. World News Group.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arns. And if you just tuned us in, our guest today is Dr. Terry Mortensen. He is a historian of geology and researcher for Answers in Genesis, and we are discussing one of his books, The Great Turning Point, The Church's Catastrophic Mistake on Geology Before Darwin.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com. That's C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, at least your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA.

And before the break, Dr. Mortensen, as you know, I forwarded you two questions by a listener in Durango, Colorado, named Deborah. And she says, this is indeed providential. I will restrain my desire to ask a dozen questions and keep it to two.

These two questions might not be exactly on the topic of The Great Turning Point, but feel free to use them if they seem to fit the discussion. In any case, please earnestly thank Dr. Mortensen for his work.

Her first question is, on an earlier Iron Sharpens Iron show, Dr. Mortensen mentioned that old Earth creationists generally seem to ignore young Earth creationists and their research, instead of engaging publicly in discussion and interpretation of the physical data.

I believe this missing interaction is a serious problem, since the secular scientists will engage neither group. As Proverbs 18, verse 17 says, the one who states his case first seems right until the other comes and examines him.

Competing claims are very difficult to validate, unless the various sides engage one another so that the strengths and weaknesses of their arguments emerge. Even between the various young Earth creationist ministries, there seem to be limited interactions.

At least publicly. How can we encourage more interaction among scientists in the origins fields, so that the strength of the available arguments can be ascertained? By the way, this is not just for the benefit of those on the fence.

Those of us who are committed to a young Earth view wish to use only arguments that are valid and well substantiated, and wish to avoid anyone who engages in misrepresentation, no matter how lofty the goal.

And by the way, our listener Deborah in Durango, Colorado, had already previously made it clear to me that she is a scientist. I'm not really sure what kind and what field, but if you could answer Deborah's first question, and then we'll move on to her second one.

I'm sorry, I had you on mute.

...talking about, because one of the things that I discovered in my research on the early 19th century was that the almost complete... Some of these men, they actually... Same thing has been going on most...

And in the text, they're not dealing on each side of Lee and prepare for Saturday morning to... And every time when the young... We learned this and we learned that. We didn't know that. In our minds, we thought, well, 14 authors, most of the evangelical theological...

By most. We tried to, on our technical websites and our popular websites, we engage with them, we document so that people can cross-examine to see if we're representing their views accurately and quoting them accurately, going the other way very much.

I would also say, though, that...

Well, perhaps I can get my old earth creationist friend, Ken Samples, to help me bring about some kind of ongoing dialogue. Ken is not a scientist, but he is a theologian and philosopher with reasons to believe.

And although I disagree with Ken on the age of the earth, we have remained very close friends for quite a long time since the late 1980s. And who knows? And I also know Calvin Beisner, who I'm not sure what his view on the age of the earth is, but he's founder and national spokesman at the Cornwall Alliance for the Stewardship of Creation.

And he has...

I know Cal real... I know Cal well and good friend.

And he has scientists that work with him on both sides of the age of the earth issue. So maybe we could start to have some events or something that would be conducive for more dialogue between the opposing views.

Because I am disturbed when I hear some of my old earth creationists make it clear that they just want the young earth folks to go away because they think that young earth creationists are an embarrassment to Christianity.

And that we're actually hindering the effectiveness and hindering the impact of the gospel on society because we are basically making a fool out of ourselves by holding on to a young earth. And that's really disturbing to me.

Yeah. Let me add one other thing. I'm very...

Great. Great.

Transitional Forms, Punctuated Equilibrium, and the Fossil Record

And Debra in Durango, Colorado's second question is, I previously did not think the lack of transitional forms was a very strong argument against evolution. However, recently I realized that if evolution were responsible for the development of current life forms, then there should be many thousands of different classes or families of extinct animals and plants in the fossil record.

Instead, if I'm not mistaken, almost all fossils seem to represent animals and plants currently living or slight modifications thereof. I can think of only dinosaurs and tribulites as widely known exceptions.

Is this the right way to think about the missing transitional forms argument or am I conflating it with a different issue?

And a 1959 book did not support his theory and he got around it or dismissed it by saying, well, we just haven't found enough fossils. In 1977, the geologist Stephen Jay Gould said, the extreme and nodes of the...

...that they called punctuated equilibrium in small populations and that's why we don't have any fossil evidence. And the punctuated equilibrium guys said, you don't have any evidence. And also in 2001, given the fact of evolution, one would expect the fossils to document a gradual steady change from ancestral forms to descendants.

But this is not what the paleontologist finds. Instead, he or she finds gaps in just about every phyletic series. The discovery of unbroken... Now, one thing that we have of the major... ...family order and so on.

This is one of kind what modern science to microbiology within a created kind.

Well, my co-host, Charlie Liebert of sixdaycreation .com has a question for you now.

Yeah, one of the things I'd like to hear you address is the concept of uniformitarianism was put forth in Lyle's Principles of Geology. But it goes back before that. Can you just kind of trace the history line as to how that comes up finally into Darwinism?

...of naturalism is already coming into science. And we can explain this by time and chance and the laws of nature, chronology in Scotland. And he and then Seven was the one who really... And they begin to see no evidence of a beginning in the rock record.

It's just a cyclical process of erosion and sedimentation. And Lyle built on those ideas.

Any follow-up, Charlie?

Yeah, it's interesting to me that both these people, Hutton and Lyle, didn't have degrees or training in geology itself. One was a lawyer and one was... What was the other one? A doctor? Yeah.

So as I said, up until about 1840, there were no professional geologists and you couldn't go to the university anywhere in the world and get a degree in geology. It was the infant state of geology. They knew hardly anything about the rocks of the earth.

And that's great. Thank you very much.

By the way, I think I forgot to tell our listener Deborah in Durango, Colorado, that she has not only won a free copy of The Great Turning Point, The Church's Catastrophic Mistake on Geology Before Darwin, by our guest, Dr. Terry Mortensen, but since she is a first-time questioner, she is also winning a free New American Standard Bible, compliments of the publishers of the NASB.

So Deborah, if you could, give me your full mailing address in Durango, Colorado, because all I have is your city and state there. And we'll have Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service ship those two things out to you as soon as possible.

Thank you very much for contributing to Iron, Sharp, and Zion with your question today. And we hope to hear a lot more from you in the days, weeks, months, and years ahead, God willing, especially since you have a scientific background.

So thank you very much. We have John in Simsbury, Connecticut. My question is, do we have... My question is, do we have to believe the gap theory to line up with science-slash-Earth's age? Thanks.

No, because there's no exegetical basis for a gap. That idea was developed in the early 1800s, right in the marginal note of Genesis 1 -2. It doesn't stand up in the fossil record. It contradicts the order of Genesis 1.

And the big problem, extinction in the animal world before Adam sinned, and that makes the curse in Genesis 3, the end of Genesis 1, and called it, we find dinosaurs that have cancer, dinosaur bones in the fossil record.

It's a big problem. There are thorns and thistles, dead thorns and thistles. It doesn't harmonize at all. So the gap theory is really today, it's only the old popular views of the day age view, so theistic evolution, John Sailhammer's promised land view.

There's a lot of different views. Jack Collins' analogical day view.

Well, thanks, John. In Simsbury, Connecticut, give us your full mailing address because you've also won not only the great turning point by our guest, Dr. Terry Mortensen, but you've also won a free New American Standard Bible since you are a first-time questioner.

So we look forward to having those shipped out to you by Cumberland Valley Bible Books Service, cvbbs .com. We're going to a break right now, and if you'd like to join us, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com, c-h-r-i-s-a-r-n-z-e-n at gmail .com.

Don't go away, God willing, we'll be right back after these messages with Dr. Terry Mortensen.

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Conferences, Donations, and Sponsor Appeals

Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours with a little less than an hour to go is Dr. Terry Mortensen, and we are discussing his book, The Great Turning Point, The Church's Catastrophic Mistake on Geology Before Darwin.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Please always give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the good old USA.

Before I return to our discussion with Dr. Mortensen, I have some very important announcements to make. Coming up in August, the 3rd through the 5th, the Foundation Conference New England is being held in Portland, Maine, and the speakers at this conference include Pastor Don Curran, who is the Eastern European Coordinator with HeartCry Missionary Society, the organization founded by Paul Washer.

Also speaking is a very dear friend of mine, Pastor Mac Tomlinson, who is the pastor of Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas, and an author of several books. Also speaking is Pastor Jesse Barrington of Grace Life Church in Dallas, Texas, which is the sister church of Grace Life Church in Lake City, Florida, who has the radio station, Grace Life Radio, that airs Iron Sharpens Iron Radio every day in its pre-recorded form.

Also, Pastor Nate Pickowitz, who we just had on this past Tuesday on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio as a guest. He is the author of Reviving New England and a soon-to-be-published book Why We're Protestant.

Pastor Nate Pickowitz is also pastor of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmanton Ironworks, New Hampshire. You'd like to join me at the Fellowship Conference New England August 3rd through the 5th in Portland, Maine, go to fellowshipconferencenewengland .com, fellowshipconferencenewengland .com, and you will find out how to register there.

Then after that, November the 17th through the 18th, the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is conducting their Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology at the Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Quaker Town, Pennsylvania.

The theme is For Still Our Ancient Foe, obviously a line from Martin Luther's classic reformational hymn A Mighty Fortress. Speakers at the Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology include Kent Hughes, Peter Jones, Tom Nettles, Dennis Cahill, and Scott Oliphant.

If you would like to register for this conference from November 17th through the 18th, go to alliancenet .org, click on events, and then click on Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology. That's alliancenet .org.