Pastor Preaching to Man Who Denies Truth

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He sees the Word of God, in quoting it from the Old Testament, as truth. I, I, that's...

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You, you would agree with that? No, no, no, I don't agree with that. You don't agree with that? No, no, no, I, I, everything is diluted.

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Everything is diluted. Does that include your statement that everything is diluted? Yes. Okay. So you don't have any basis for truth?

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Oh, definitely do. Is that diluted? Definitely? I know when

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I suffer. And I assume that you would suffer similarly. That's true, that's real.

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And, uh, I know when I feel loved and nurtured, and I assume that you would feel so similarly.

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That is real. What is real is true. So, so, how do you know this?

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How do you know it? How do you know? It's through revelation. How do you know when you suffer? Well, no, I'll tell you how, if I make a knowledge claim,

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I'll say how I know that with certainty is because God has revealed himself. And that's the objective revelation

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I stand on. If suffering and... Well, animals suffer. If suffering and joy are real, yes, animals suffer.

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How do you know it's real? How do you know that it's you who's actually suffering, experiencing joy? Well, if it's not, that's okay, but that's the only reality we know.

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So, so the point is you have no certainty? You have no certainty that you're even here right now. Well, certainly we do.

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You do? If the word certainty means anything. Certainly, we don't have certainty. If the word certainty means anything.

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So how do you know that what you're saying is true? Here I am.

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Well, you're basing it upon personal experience, but truth is something that's objective outside of you and your experience.

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If you poke me in the finger, it will hurt. Right, but that, but you're only telling me about, you're only telling me about your personal experience.

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What you're describing, what you're describing is a nervous system. That doesn't make it true.

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Yes, it does. It certainly doesn't. Well, we don't know that there's a world around us, but if... There you go. And that's, and there's where your worldview has brought you.

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If the word certainty, if the word certainty means anything. It does to me. There is a world.

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It does to me as a Christian. I think as Christians can have certainty, but you've already granted, I mean this humbly to you, you've already granted that you can't have any certainty.

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You don't even know that you're here. Well, you said it, you said you don't even know you're here. So you do know you're here now?

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What certainty other would there be then? The objective revelation of God himself.

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But that's not certainty. Oh, sure it is. Because God says, well, I'll give you one thing that God says.

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He says, if you reject his revelation, you're a fool. Now, I'll give you one demonstration. I'll give you one demonstration of it.

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See, not only does God make the claim, but you're evidencing it right now. He says, if you reject his revelation, you're a fool.

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And you reject his revelation, and you just said you don't even know if you're here. You said it.

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No, I assure you, sir, you said it. You said it. Okay, so now you're saying that you do know you're here.

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If there's any meaning at all to the word now. Okay, so... If there's any meaning at all to the word certain.

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Okay, so I don't think that really answers the question, because you base your knowledge of whether you're here based upon a nervous system.

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We have a nervous system. I certainly do, but I don't base my knowledge on my nervous system and an experience

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I have of pain or a lack of pain. But I think a better thing is... I don't want to play games.

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Well, I know, I think it's important, because we're talking about... I'm not trying to catch you guys. No, I know, I know. I don't think you are. I think I'm trying to get to the bottom of what you and I believe.

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So it seems to me that you believe things based upon personal revelation. You've had experiences that drive you to a position where you think,

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I know this based upon my epiphany, my own personal revelation. Reality, I believe you're real.

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Okay, but you believe what you do now, spiritually speaking, because you've had an epiphany.

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I hear you say that. That's a part of it. I believe other people, too.

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Okay, so I just had an epiphany. I mean, I believe the

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Bible came. Can I watch it? Okay. I believe, you know, the

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Bible is real. It's real? As in the paper and the leather?

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No, the phenomenon of the Bible is real. Describe that. It's a miracle from who?

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Well, it's a miracle that these radical words of Jesus on the mouth have survived not more diluted for all these thousand, two thousand years.

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Right, yeah. Over 5 ,700 manuscript pieces and copies of the Greek New Testament, over 19 ,000 early translations from the

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Greek into other languages, like Latin, Ethiopian, English, of course, is in there. So yeah,

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I mean, God's preserved his word. And one of the things that God says in his word, Jesus says, I'm the way, the truth, and the life.

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No man comes to the Father but by me. Was he right? In a certain sense, that is true.

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He said he's the only way to God. If you don't have him, you're going to die in your sins. Well, that's not the only thing he said.

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Well, there's plenty more like that. But he said that he was the only way to reconciliation with the Father. That's not the only thing he said.

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Okay, so do you accept... What did he say when the young rich man asked him, what do I need to do to have eternal life?

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He's talked to... He knew the man. He knew what he had not done. He knew what he was not willing to give up.

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And he knew he had not truly kept the commandments. And he said, go sell everything you own. What did he say first?

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He said, you know the commandments. And he starts listing off the commandments. And then the rich young ruler thinks that he's done it.

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And Jesus says, here's what you lack. Sell everything you own. Give it to the poor.

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Because he knows that the rich young ruler has not kept God's law in terms of what he's supposed to do with his money. God's commandments and his law regarding money had a lot to do with how you treat the poor.

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And so what he told him, this is what you have not done. You haven't kept God's law. He says, sell everything you own. Give it to the poor.

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And here's what you lack. Come follow me. And when people heard Jesus say that to the rich young ruler, they said, how can anyone get into heaven then?

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And Jesus says, with men, it's impossible. With God, all things are possible through Christ alone.

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In that passage, Jesus teaches you to follow him. Any other place where Jesus answers the question, what do

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I need to do to have eternal life? I can give you a number of places, but you've rejected the one I gave you.

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He says, I'm the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father but by me. Was he right or wrong?

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Well, he was... I'm not sure about the...

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I have as much respect for John as for the three synoptic Gospels. But obviously, a

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Chinese person or someone doesn't come to the Father through Jesus, you've never heard of it.

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Well, yeah, the Bible talks about that, too. So things are true from a certain perspective, and for a certain purpose.

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I don't want to reject that totally. So let me put it to you this way. If God says something, does that settle the issue for you?

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Well, who knows what God says? So if God spoke, let's get theoretical here, okay?

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If God spoke, does that settle it? Well, how would

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I know God was speaking? Well, God has the ability, as God, to communicate in a way that is clear, with clarity.

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So I would say that Scripture has perspicuity to it, clarity to it. God, who is all -knowing, all -powerful, and can communicate with a creature like you that He made, is able to communicate with His creatures.

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And when God communicates with His creatures, He says simple things like, whoever has the Son has the life, whoever does not have the

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Son does not have the life, but the wrath of God abides in him. There's another example. And so He says, if you don't have

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Him, God's wrath abides in you because you're a sinner. That's beautiful for those who heard

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Him, but it doesn't make any sense for someone, for most of the people in the world that never heard of Jesus.

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If every person... Oh, the Bible answers that, though. It says all of us are made by the same God, and we come from the same first parents, and all of us are sinners and fallen.

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That's a testimony of Scripture from Genesis to Revelation. Well, I understand the way that... The Bible says it.

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Historical Christianity looks at these things. Well, the Bible teaches it. Do you have a dispute with, say,

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Romans 5? I believe insofar as I can gather it in the way that the early

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Christians before Constantine lived, and Felicitas, and Perpetua, and Origen, and Justin Martyr, and the

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Didache, and the amazing effect that Jesus had on the Jewish Christian community.

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I respect that. I don't take that to be... You know, our beliefs...

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We don't say that our beliefs are true because a creed, or a confession, or Constantinople taught it.

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We say that it's true because the Word of God teaches it. Everything I've done so far, I haven't quoted one historic

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Christian to you. I haven't quoted one creed or one confession. We've just quoted Scripture. Well, I think it'd be a little more safe to believe something's true if it does good for everybody.

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Okay, so would you say salvation for fallen people is good for everybody? It is good if it reduces suffering and increases well -being.

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Okay, and who says that? How do I know that's true? Well, what do you like? Well, okay.

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So what I asked you, though, was how do I know the claim that you just made is true? You said, if it produces joy, then it's good.

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But if I reject the testimony of Scripture about what the nature of this is, and you and me, image bearers of God, God governing the universe, if I reject

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His Word as you do in many places, then what I'm left with is a cosmos with no governance, no guidance, no knowledge to justify anything at all.

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I can't make the claim that joy is a good thing. I can't. Well, you can. I know a lot of secular people, a lot of atheists, including

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Sam Harris, Jordan Peterson, Steven Pinker. The point is, they can't justify it.

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They can't justify it, though. Yes, they can. Certainly can't. No. They know that suffering is real.

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You know, Sam Harris doesn't believe that you're making any real choices right now. That's fine.

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He believes that all we are are basically meat machines with chemical processes happening in our brain.

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So you can't get biochemical responses, and therefore, joy is an odd.

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That's his honest understanding. As an atheist. Right.

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That's his honest understanding, and he's living the best life he can. As an image -bearer of God and God's world, he certainly is, but he has no basis to believe the things that he is.

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Well, he does. No justification. No coherent justification. I think

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God loves atheists. I believe that God loves atheists. I believe God's loving to atheists, and he's loving to you right now.

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But see, if I pour a bottle of seltzer water on the floor, and it starts to bubble chemically,

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I can't say, oh, look, a university. Thoughts.

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All that's happening is chemical reactions, right? And you can't get from chemical reactions the ought of joy, the ought of kindness.

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So Sam Harris's worldview leads him to... Well, that's between you and him.

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My point was he rejects God's word, and so do you. He has no basis. I don't reject

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God's word. Well, you have already. I accept that. The parts that corroborate with what you like.

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No, no, that's not really true. He gave you a version. I didn't want to... I possibly didn't want to do all the changes

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I made in my life. But I did them because they were right, because I was called to do them. How do you know they're right? Who called you?

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Because I have good fruit. Who called you? Well, the master teachings. What master teachings?

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The Tao Te Ching, the Bhagavad Gita. So the Bhagavad Gita... You know, all master teachers throughout the ages have said these things.

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So the Bhagavad Gita, the mishmash of different spiritual beliefs and teachings...

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Well, same thing in the Bible, there's a mishmash. Oh, no, I would say it's a unified revelation and testimony. But I know you would, but... Right, and I think

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I could demonstrate that. That's what God says about it. I know you would, but... Right. I know. Right. So let me just ask you this final question.

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You seem to believe a lot of things based upon personal revelation and experience. If I said to you right now that I had an epiphany, that I'm your

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Messiah and your God, and you must worship me and follow me for the rest of your life, are you ready to come with me?

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That'd be immoral, because... Who says? You don't have the fruits that would show... It's my personal experience.

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It wouldn't... You don't know. But I told you I have faith in humanity.

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Okay, so have faith in me. I'm now your Messiah. That's inordinate. Who says? I say, and we all say.

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I'm the Messiah. You can't argue with my authority. All that's silly. You don't have an answer for it.

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You see, because... Why do you say these things? Because... You say these things because you think them, but I don't say them.

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Well, you're not giving me an answer. How do you argue with my personal experience? You just said, no, you're not. Yes, I say, and everyone else says, no, you're not.

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Show the fruit. Sure, I'll give you the fruit right now. I come to you with the words of the living God. Okay, well, I'll follow them.

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If they match with the Bible, the Tao Te Ching, the Bhagavad Gita... Okay, so your worldview is you don't really know anything with certainty.

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You say that. No, that's what you said. It's all recorded, so... You say that. No, as a

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Christian, I wouldn't say that. We have certainty. You say... You're putting words in my mouth. Okay, so how do you know?

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You're not being kind to me. How do you know what you know? How do you... How do you know what you know?

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Okay, sir, you can't answer the question. You can't answer the question. I've already answered it. You're not making sense.

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Okay, I'll give you the answer. I'll give you the answer. I know what I know because I know when I prick my finger...

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That's a nervous system. There's no knowledge there. It's a nervous system. You said that in order to know what was true, you had to know what was real.

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How do you know that? It's real. Demonstrate it. Oh, that's silly. Demonstrate it. How do you know what you're hearing? Based upon revelation.

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God's Word... That's fine. How do you want to know things? God's Word provides the foundation for how

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I know that I have being, that the universe is what God says it is, that God is governing the universe, that I have a basis for science, immaterial laws of logic, a foundation for ethics.

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Your worldview, when you take a mishmash of just what these people have had in private revelation, and you in private revelation, leads you to no basis to justify your claims to knowledge.

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Here's what I hope to have. Okay. I have a very happy home with me, my three sons, my two sons, my uncle, who's a year older than I am.

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Very happy home. I have a happy relationship with my sisters, my brother, my father, my mother.

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I'm building a company that's beautiful, and I don't cheat my employees. Good for you. That is real.

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You're experiencing a lot of grace. That is real. Okay? That is real. If you want to say

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I don't know what is real, you can put words in my mouth. No, what I'm saying is... You can put words in my mouth.

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Well, let me... I can try to answer what you said. But please don't do it. I can try to answer what you said. You're not being... You're not telling the truth as carefully as you can.

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I don't think you're hearing me. I don't think you're hearing me. Try to hear me. I want you to tell the truth... Okay. Why should

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I? ...as carefully as you can. Why should I? On what basis... Because that's what I want to hear. On what basis... And that's what will make you a real boy.

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What... Because if you're good and kind and true... Can you let me answer? On what basis... I answered. I asked me a question.

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I got you. On what basis ought I to follow your standards, that truth matters, and I ought to be honest in conversation?

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Try them out. Just... Just give it a shot? Give it a shot. If you've never heard it from anyone else...

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I got it. I got it. But if it seems... Well, gee, I heard my mommy say that one day, and my grandma said it, too.

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I hear ya. Maybe I'm another messenger of God to you. Your worldview is pragmatism.

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Whatever works. Just like Jesus is. Whatever works. By the fruit shall you know them. Jesus... No. Sir, in the

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Sermon on the Mount, where Jesus talks about by the fruit you shall know them, he specifically refers to false teachers.

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You do realize that. And he spoke to their doctrine, false teaching. So the bad fruit and good fruit

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Jesus referred to there, what's contained within that is false teaching. He warns them to beware of the leaven of the

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Pharisees and the Sadducees. False teaching. So anything that contradicted his word, his teaching, was false, was bad fruit.

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The whole world contradicts. It certainly does. And so the fruit that you've given tonight, according to Jesus, is bad fruit.

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You reject his testimony about himself? That's utterly ridiculous. That's... What word do you have for Jesus when he says he's the way, the truth, and the life?

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A happy home. None of those things are going to save you. No, they won't save you. That is utterly...

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You're still on your sin. Oh, that's silly. That's why you need Jesus. You reject Christ. That is utterly silly.

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Sir, you're rejecting his testimony, not ours. What shall a prophet of man if he gains the whole world and yet loses his soul?

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Exactly. So none of those things are going to save you. It's only faith in Jesus. Sir, saying this is silly.

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Okay, so the difference between the two of us, just say the three of us, is that we're saying you're lost in your sins on the testimony of Jesus.

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You're telling me that we're lost based upon the testimony of the Bhagavad Gita. I don't have the testimony of Jesus.

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You don't. That is the most absurd thing. You reject his word. That is the most absurd thing. Okay, so I'll give you his word. He says,

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I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father but by me. True or false?

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That was true from a certain perspective. From a certain perspective. Notice how you have to add those words? You have to qualify it.

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Jesus doesn't qualify it. This is unequivocal. You qualify it for him because it doesn't fit your theology.

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You don't know Christ, sir. You don't know him. That's fine. And that's what we want you to know.

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But I have salvation. You don't. Not according to Christ. That's fine.

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You can think that. Sir, it's not based on... We're giving you the declaration of scripture. You are welcome to think that. I bless you.

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Okay, go ahead. There is no other name given under heaven among men whereby we must be saved.

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Jesus is the Messiah. He lived righteously, died for sinners and rose again. And you need to turn from your sin and come and believe on him and have trust and put your faith in him alone.

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Oh, you know nothing about my having turned from my sins on the great work that God has done in me.

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You know nothing. Other than the little bit I have told you. You know nothing. I see the bad fruit of your theology.

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You stand here and judge me. Sir, no, no. It's based upon God's revelation. Theology is not what life is about. Peter. You just gave me theology.

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Do you realize that? When you said theology is not what life is about, that's a theological statement. You just refuted yourself.

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Have fun. Just encourage you to come to Christ, sir. May your faith bring you joy.

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May your faith bring you great growth, great blessing.

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May it bring your children joy. May the peace of your children be great.

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We appreciate the blessing. And we would encourage you. And may you rejoice in heaven at the last day in the presence of the

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Father and all the holy angels. Well, we can only do that because of Christ and his work on our behalf.

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We would encourage you to really grapple with the fact that Christ and his work is not yours if you don't trust in him and who he actually is.

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If you're following a false Christ, believing in a false message of salvation, you don't know

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God. That is the clear teaching of scripture from Genesis to Revelation. If you have the wrong

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God, the wrong way to God, you don't know him. That's why Jesus came to die. Well, that's wonderful.

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It's wonderful for those who know him. It's not wonderful. It's terrifying for you. You understand things about me you don't.

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I'm only basing it on what you said. There's no reason. I mean, if you don't need these cards,

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I'll take them. I was just trying to offer you a gift. Well, we love you, sir. That's why we're here. All I was doing was offering you.

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We appreciate it. And he was offering you a gift. Do you have faith in me? In what sense? In what sense?

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Do you have faith? I cannot know what is in your heart.

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No, and nor we yours. That's right. I can only go off what you say. I'm only basing it on what you say.

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Sir, when you ask me a question, I'll try to give an answer. I'll give you an answer. You've been talking a lot. Sir, you asked me a question.

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Yes. Did you want me to answer? Don't do that. Did you want me to answer? Don't do what you're doing right now.

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Did you want me to answer? Don't do what you're doing right now. Okay. Okay. So you're not interested in a conversation.

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So you're just being childish at this point. You've been interrupting. No, sir. You asked a question. Did you want me to answer it?

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You're trying to make me look bad. That's your only... Okay. All right. God bless you, sir. Your only point is to perform an inquisition.

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No. On me and make me look bad. Bible says, test the spirits. Test all things. Hold fast to that which is true.

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We're testing you. Okay. I'll test you. What do you want to test? We've already had the conversation, sir.

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You seem very disinterested in having a conversation at this point. I'm not interested in returning to a state that I previously was in.

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What was that? Where I had less faith and real spiritual power to do the words of Jesus.

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I'm not interested in taking the perspective that I took before where I didn't really take the power of the words of Jesus.

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You don't take them now. Well, you can... You reject his word. You can say that all you want. You've demonstrated it.

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I can give you scripture for the rest of the night about Jesus' exclusive way to God, and you reject one verse.

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I'll tell you one thing. I will not perform an inquisition on you. I will have faith in you that you're okay with God.

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It's not faith in us that's going to save you, friend. I'm safe. I'm good with God. I'm a friend of God.

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Not if you reject Christ. You're not, and it's hatred to tell you otherwise. We love you, so we're trying to tell you the truth, man.

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You don't have Christ, and he's the only one that can save you. You're lying. Christ is the only way.

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That's not a lie. It's the truth. And you're saying that to me because that's something you've been taught to say. No, it's based on the testimony of scripture.

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God's word says that if you reject him... You're telling me a lie. You're telling me a lie. Do you understand? Sir, you're getting visibly angry because God is penetrating your heart with his word.

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That's the charade, the spiritual veil you put before you, that you portray to others as being spiritual, has been broken by the word of God.

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And I think you know that. You need Christ. The false

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Christ that you promote, that you propagate, isn't a Christ that can save. He hasn't saved you. He won't save anybody that you talk to about this false

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Christ. You need the true Christ. And Zach told you that it's an act of hatred not to tell you the truth.

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That's why we're here. It's much easier for me to walk away and not spend time here talking to you.

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I have a family. I got four kids. I got a wife at home. There are things that I could be doing right now, investing in, but we're doing this...

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You wait 15 years. We're doing this as a sacrifice of love for you because we care about you.

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If you reject Christ and his testimony, you're lost. You don't know who you're working with. No, you don't know...

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You'll notice that the words that we're standing on, we can demonstrate from Scripture. What you're standing on is your own testimony. You're doing things that aren't right.

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Okay, so how do I know what's right? Is it based on God's law? You said you love the Sermon on the Mount. Do you know what

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Jesus says there at the beginning of the Sermon on the Mount? He says, do not even begin to think that I've come to destroy the law and the prophets.

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I have not come to destroy them, but to fulfill them. You deny his law. You say that his words are deluded.

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I'm not here to destroy you guys. I feel that you're here to destroy me. No, we're here because we love you.

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But that doesn't come across as... Do you believe you can be deceived, sir? It doesn't come across as... Do you believe you can be deceived?

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Is that an option for you? A possibility? Delusion is a human condition. Very good. Now, we acknowledge that too.

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And the only way that I can know that I'm not deluded and deceived is based upon the objective testimony of God.

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But that... That's the truth.

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No. That's why you're struggling. There's no answer for it, sir. No. There really isn't.

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No, I'm going to say it straight out. And you're lying to yourself to justify your godless world view.

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Oh, good grief. Godless world view. You don't know who speaks for God.

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Well, I know what his word says. Because you look at it as his word, but...

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That's right. But... And you don't. I look at... Come to grips with it.

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You reject his word. This charade... No, that's not true. This pretend,

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I trust in Jesus' word. It's all phony. It's all fake. You don't really believe him.

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Anywhere Jesus disagrees with you, you reject his testimony. There is no reason to think that the

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Bible is the and only the word of God. How about if Jesus says it is?

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You believe him then? Because you say you love Jesus. That's in the Bible. Right, great. So... We don't have any reason to believe that any given particular verse...

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Sure. Is an accurate... You want me to give it to you? We don't have any reason to believe that any particular verse is an accurate...

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How about... I'll give you two. I'll give you one macro reason, and then

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I'll give you one minor, okay? Macro reason. God says if you reject his word, you become a fool. Like you have, and I don't mean this offensive, tonight.

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No, that's internal. You become a fool. You've been weaving a case to try to say

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I'm a fool, but I haven't been a fool. Sir, you've demonstrated you can't even justify appeals to ethics, to knowledge.

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No, you say that. No, you've said that tonight. I've demonstrated that. The next thing is...

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And I'll give you an option. I'll give you an ability to actually shoot at something besides the big issue of if you reject God, you're a fool.

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John chapter 1, verse 1 says... In Archaean, Halagos kai halagos ein prostontheon kai theos ein halagos.

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That's the Greek. I don't speak Greek. I know, and I didn't think you did. My point is I read it in Greek for a reason. That's the ancient text that's been transmitted to us.

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I didn't think you read it. I'm trying to say that's the ancient text. Jesus didn't speak Greek. So, ready? Um, in Jesus' day, the

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Hellenization of the Empire had already taken place. Most Jews... Jesus spoke in Aramaic. Most Jews didn't speak

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Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek. And the New Testament words were written in Greek. The only way you know about Jesus is because of the

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Greek New Testament. We don't know... But that is... Those are late manuscripts of the gospel.

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No, no, no, I'm giving you an example. I'm giving you an example. So, John... Do you know that the first epistle of Paul is earlier than any of the gospels?

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Can I... No. You know that. No, sir, sir. John... I'll give you one example. John... John's a very late gospel.

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You know that. Can I just... I'll just give you one reason here, okay? You're trying to make me look like a fool, but I'm not being foolish. No, I'm telling you...

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I'm telling you, John... What's the oldest manuscript we have in the New Testament documents? Do you know?

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It's one of the epistles of Paul. No, no. It's the gospel of John. It's for the Rylands fragment.

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It's the Rylands fragment. You need to go to early Christian writings... Sir, sir, this is my life.

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Because that is not real. I'm a minister of the gospel, and I'll tell you to look it up. I'll give you... I'll tell you to look it up. It's not real.

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I'll tell you to look it up, sir. Early Christian writings... Okay, if you have something to write with, write this down. P52, the

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Rylands fragment. It's the oldest, most... the most of antiquity of the

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New Testament documents extant today. It's from about 100 to 125 AD. It was found in Egypt.

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It's the Rylands fragment. This last century, the Rylands fragment. Was it in the past 10 years?

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It's in the Trinity. No, no. Because... It's older than that. The last 10 years... Sir, you're an error.

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The earliest Christian writing in the New Testament was one of the epistles...

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Sir, your facts are misunderstood there. That's not true. When you talk about the earliest writing, you're talking about when something was composed.

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But the earliest extant manuscript we have is from 125

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AD, right? That's a different thing. Yeah, so the point is, I can demonstrate all the

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Gospels were written... You're trying to call me a fool. No, I said God calls you a fool for rejecting his word.

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Well, that's convenient. Psalm chapter 14. Psalm chapter 14. That's convenient. Psalm chapter 14. You're doing it.

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Okay, so... But God's not here. You are. So, right. God's not standing here. And God has spoken, and he says in his word...

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Wait, wait. Okay, I want to address that. ...are the ones who he uses as the means to promote his message.

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He sends people out to spread his message, right? He says the word, and he says, now go and send it, right?

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So, all the complaining about the fact that we're quoting Jesus to you, and God's word about being a fool, rejecting him, isn't going to change the fact that God says it, and he sends people to say it.

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Okay. Okay, so let me speak further. Got it. Okay. You say

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God's word, but God is not standing here visibly in the flesh speaking, and there are many people who claim this or that is

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God's word. You have no special claim that what you're saying is the word of God.

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If any person says, what did God say? The appropriate answer is, according to whom?

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That is simply real. Thank you. I'm glad you said that, because you just demonstrated that you now have no ultimate foundation for any of the claims that you make.

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Not the kind of a foundation you're talking about. No, you have no foundation. No coherent foundation. All you have is preference.

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All you have is preference. I prefer the Bhagavad Gita. Well, I prefer that you don't prick my finger.

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I prefer... I prefer that you don't lock me up. I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying now. I'm not talking about the physical stuff.

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I'm talking about... Wait, it's not physical. I'm talking about... I'm talking about the abstractions, the claims that you're making, right?

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Yeah, I prefer that you have faith in me as a human being. I don't. The Bible says the heart is deceitful of all things, and desperately wicked.

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Who can know it? Well, if you don't have faith in me as a human being, we can't have a civil society.

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I love you as a human being. You have faith in me too, but you don't admit it. I love you, but I don't trust... You just have faith because I'm not going to take out a knife and poke you.

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That's exactly right. I don't have any certainty... I don't have any certainty that you won't. Right, but you have faith.

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I trust God and his protection. You trust me more than you think. But I don't trust the words coming out of your mouth because they contradict

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God's words. That's okay. I don't need you to believe me. And I don't. In fact,

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I'm not telling you anything. You've been saying a lot tonight. No, I'm not giving you a message. All I did was offer you this if you wanted to use it.

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You have said that I have been a fool.

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You have said that I'm becoming angry. You said lots of things. No, that's not true.

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You've said a lot of things that are in your script, but they're not real. Sir, I'm a script. Yes, you do.

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I don't, sir. Just engaging with you in dialogue. You have a foundation.

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You know you have a tradition. You have a tradition. Absolutely. Yeah, every human being saying things.

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But you realize that my tradition. I'm not speaking. My tradition is based on the word of God.

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My tradition is based on the word of God. But God says if you reject his word, you're a fool. But I have not spoken as a fool.

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God says if you reject his word, you're a fool. You reject Christ's words.

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That's convenient. You reject God's law. Very convenient. For God. It's convenient for you.

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That's what God says. But you reject that too, don't you? It's convenient for you. To say

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God said this. Would you like the passage? I can go home and read it. Tell you what

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God's some other thing. God said. So I'll give you the passage. You can look in Psalm 14. One Romans chapter one.

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It's very convenient when things God says, sir. I just want to encourage you with a blessing.

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Then I pray that God opens your eyes and your heart to his truth. Your rejection of your rejection of Christ and his word.

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It will lead you will lead you to eternal death. I'm not headed toward eternal death.

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Without Christ, you are. In three minutes, you're going to be. I know. I know. That's why I'm trying to get. I'm trying to finish up here. Don't. Yeah.

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So the Bible says without Christ, the wrath of God abides in you. I've been blessed supremely by the things

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I've learned and had faith in. And I've taken Jesus at his word. But you don't take.

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You don't take Jesus's word. Just just don't just just drop. No, sir. I will not. No, you reject

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Christ. There's there's no end in what you're saying, sir. There's no there's no there is.

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It stops at Christ. No, there's no end game. Sir, I think it's everything. It's actually the opposite.

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Sir, you reject Christ. You reject him and say that you rejected his words tonight.

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It's not. You rejected his words. Saying is not real. How do you know about Christ? How do you know about him?

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Well, that's where you learn about him. To be honest, and I'm only interested in told the truth.

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OK, it's good material to me who said the things that are in the gospel. It's immaterial to me that there does appear, in fact, to really have been a person named

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Jesus. That's immaterial to me. It's immaterial to me. You know who is behind the miracle of the early

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Christianity? It is immaterial. What matters to be clear? You're denying that Jesus was actually a historical person.

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No, he's saying that he thinks there's some good evidence that he might have been. People that deny it,

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I think they've got a vested interest. There's somebody behind the phenomenon of the early

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Christian church, the Jewish church. There's somebody there. There's an amazing person behind that.

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But not the Jesus of Scripture. It doesn't matter to me. Not God in the flesh. The only one that can save you.

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So you reject the Jesus of history for a Jesus of your own imagination? Well, that's what you have.

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That's the truth. No, I accept the Christ of Scripture. You imagine something. There's three people standing here, two that accept the words in Scripture, one that accepts his imagination.

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Well, all of us accept our imagination. Your imagination includes what you think the Bible is.

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No, what the Bible says. What I think the Bible is. And what the Bible says. We're not different. Not what it is, what it says.

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We're not different. We're very different. But you reject it. God bless you, sir.