Pastor Preaching to Man Who Denies Truth

The Word of God, Truth, and the Possibility of Certainty

He sees the word of God in quoting it from the Old Testament as truth.

I... I... That's...

You would agree with that?

No, no, no. I don't agree with that.

You don't agree with that?

No, no, no. I... I... Everything is deluded. Everything is diluted.

Does that include your statement that everything is deluded?

Yes.

Okay. So you don't have any basis for truth?

Oh, definitely do.

Is that deluded? Definitely?

I know when I suffer. And I assume that you would suffer similarly. That's true. That's real. I know when I feel loved and nurtured. And I assume that you would feel so similarly. That is real. What is real is true.

So... So... How do you know this? How do you know it?

How do you know?

It's through revelation.

How do you know when you suffer?

Well, no. I'll tell you how... If I make a knowledge claim, I'll say how I know that with certainty is because God has revealed Himself. And that's the objective revelation I stand on.

If suffering and...

Well, animals suffer.

If suffering and joy are real, yes, animals suffer.

How do you know it's real? How do you know that it's you who's actually suffering and experiencing joy?

Well, if it's not, that's okay. But that's the only reality we know.

So the point is you have no certainty?

You have no certainty that you're even here right now.

Well, certainly we do.

You do?

If the word certainty means anything.

Certainly we don't have certainty.

If the word certainty means anything.

So how do you know that what you're saying is true?

Here I am.

Well, you're basing it upon personal experience. But truth is something that's objective outside of you and your experience.

If you poke me in the finger, it will hurt.

Right, but that... But you're only telling me about... You're only telling me about your personal experience.

Well, I assume you're the same.

What you're describing... What you're describing is a nervous system. That doesn't make it true.

Yes, it does.

It certainly doesn't.

Well, we don't know that there's a world around us.

There you go. And there's where your worldview has brought you.

If the word certainty means anything...

It does to me.

There is a world.

It does to me as a Christian. I think Christians can have certainty. But you've already granted... I mean this humbly to you. You've already granted that you can't have any certainty. You don't even know that you're here.

Well, you said it. You said you don't even know you're here.

That's not true.

So you do know you're here now?

What certainty other would there be than what you...

The objective revelation of God himself.

But that's not certainty.

Oh, sure it is.

Because God says... Well, I'll give you one thing that God says. He says if you reject his revelation, you're a fool. Now, I'll give you one demonstration... I'll give you one demonstration of it. See, not only does God make the claim, but you're evidencing it right now.

He says if you reject his revelation, you're a fool. And you reject his revelation, and you just said you don't even know if you're here.

You said it.

No, I assure you, sir, you said it.

You said it.

Okay, so now you're saying that you do know you're here.

If there's any meaning at all to the word no.

Okay, so...

If there's any meaning at all to the word certain.

Okay, so I don't think that really answers the question, because you base your knowledge of whether you're here based upon a nervous system.

You have a nervous system.

I certainly do, but I don't base my knowledge on my nervous system and the experience I have of pain or a lack of pain. But I think a better thing is...

I don't want to play games.

Well, I know. I think it's important because we're talking about...

I'm not trying to catch you guys.

No, I know. I know. I don't think you are. I think I'm trying to get to the bottom of what you and I believe. So it seems to me that you believe things based upon personal revelation. You've had experiences that drive you to a position where you think, I know this based upon my epiphany, my own personal revelation.

I believe in reality. I believe you're real.

Okay, but you believe what you do now, spiritually speaking, because you've had an epiphany. Did I hear you say that?

That's a part of it. I believe other people, too.

Okay, so I just had an epiphany.

I mean, I believe the Bible came from me. Can I watch something?

Okay.

I believe the Bible is real.

It's real? As in the paper and the leather?

No, the phenomenon in the Bible is real.

Can you describe that? It's a miracle. From whom?

Well, it's a miracle that these radical words of Jesus in the ceremony on the mount have survived on not more diluted for all these 1 ,000, 2 ,000 years.

Right. Yeah. Over 5 ,700 manuscript pieces and copies of the Greek New Testament, over 19 ,000 early translations from the Greek into other languages like Latin, Ethiopian, English, of course, is in there.

So, yeah, I mean, God's preserved his word. And one of the things that God says in his word, Jesus says, I'm the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father but by me. Was he right?

In a certain sense, that is true.

He said he's the only way to God. If you don't have him, you're going to die in your sins.

Well, that's not the only thing he said.

There's plenty more like that, but he said that he was the only way to reconciliation with the Father.

That's not the only thing he said.

What did he say when the young rich man asked him,.

What do I need to do to have eternal life?

He knew the man. He knew what he had not done. He knew what he was not willing to give up. And he knew he had not truly kept the commandments. And he said, go sell everything you own.

What did he say first?

He said, you know the commandments. And he starts listing off the commandments. And then the rich young ruler thinks that he's done it, and Jesus says, here's what you lack. Sell everything you own. Give it to the poor.

Because he knows that the rich young ruler has not kept God's law in terms of what he's supposed to do with his money. God's commandments and his law regarding money had a lot to do with how you treat the poor.

And so what he told him, this is what you have not done. You haven't kept God's law. He says, sell everything you own. Give it to the poor. And here's what you lack. Come follow me. And when people heard Jesus say that to the rich young ruler, they said, how can anyone get into heaven then?

And Jesus says, with men it's impossible. With God all things are possible. Through Christ alone. In that passage, Jesus teaches you to follow him.

I'm not aware of any other place where Jesus answers the question,.

What do I need to do to have eternal life?

I can give you a number of places, but you've rejected the one I gave you. He says, I'm the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father but by me. Was he right or wrong?

Well, he was, I'm not sure about the, I have as much respect for John as for the three synoptic Gospels. But, obviously a Chinese person, or someone doesn't come to the Father through Jesus,.

You've never heard of him.

It's obvious.

The Bible talks about that too.

So things are true from a certain perspective. So let me put it to you this way.

If God says something, does that settle the issue for you?

Well, who knows what God says?

So, if God spoke, let's get theoretical here, okay? If God spoke, does that settle it?

Well, if I, how would I know God was speaking?

Well, God has the ability as God to communicate in a way that is clear, with clarity. So I would say that Scripture has perspicuity to it, clarity to it. God, who is all-knowing, all-powerful, and can communicate with a creature like you that he made, is able to communicate with his creatures.

And when God communicates with his creatures, he says simple things like, whoever has the Son has the life, whoever does not have the Son does not have the life, but the wrath of God abides in him. There's another example.

And so he says, if you don't have him, God's wrath abides in you, because you're a sinner.

That's beautiful for those who heard him, but it doesn't make any sense for someone, for most of the people in the world that never heard of Jesus.

If every person, oh, the Bible answers that, though. It says all of us are made by the same God, and we come from the same first parents, and all of us are sinners and fallen. That's a testimony of Scripture from Genesis to Revelation.

Well, I understand the way that...

The Bible says it?

...historical Christianity looks at these things.

Well, the Bible teaches it. Do you have a dispute with, say, Romans 5?

I believe, insofar as I can gather it, in the way that the early Christians, before Constantine, lived, and Felicitas, and Perpetua, and Origen, and Justin Martyr, and the Didache, and the amazing effect that Jesus had on the Jewish Christian community.

I respect that. I don't take that to be...

You know, our beliefs... We don't say that our beliefs are true because a creed, or a confession, or Constantinople taught it. We say that it's true because the Word of God teaches it. Everything I've done so far, I haven't quoted one historic Christian to you.

I haven't quoted one creed or one confession. We've just quoted Scripture.

Well, I think it'd be a little more safe to believe something's true if it does good for everybody.

Okay, so would you say salvation for fallen people is good for everybody?

It is good if it reduces suffering and increases well-being.

Okay, and who says that? How do I know that's true?

Well, what do you like?

Well, okay. So what I asked you, though, was how do I know the claim that you just made is true? You said, if it produces joy, then it's good. But if I reject the testimony of Scripture about what the nature of this is, and you, and me, image-bearers of God, God governing the universe, if I reject His Word, as you do, in many places, then what I'm left with is a cosmos with no governance, no guidance, no knowledge to justify anything at all.

I can't make the claim that joy is a good thing. I can't.

Well, you can. I know a lot of secular people, a lot of atheists.

Well, we could.

Including Sam Harris, Jordan Peterson,.

Steven Pinker.

The point is, they can't justify it.

They can't justify it, though.

Yes, they can.

Certainly can't.

They know that suffering is real.

You know, Sam Harris doesn't believe that you're making any real choices right now.

That's fine.

He believes that all we are are basically meat machines with chemical processes happening in our brain. So you can't get biochemical responses, and therefore joy is an odd.

That's his honest understanding.

As an atheist.

Right.

That's his honest understanding, and he's living the best life he can.

As an image-bearer of God and God's world, he certainly is. But he has no basis to believe the things that he does.

No, he does.

No justification. No coherent justification.

I think God loves atheists. I believe that God loves atheists.

I believe God's loving to atheists, and He's loving to you right now. But see, if I pour a bottle of seltzer water on the floor, and it starts to bubble chemically, I can't say, Oh, look, a university.

Thoughts.

All that's happening is chemical reactions.

Right?

And you can't get from chemical reactions the ought of joy, the ought of kindness. So Sam Harris' worldview leads him to...

Well, that's between you and him.

My point was, he rejects God's word, and so do you. He has no basis.

No, I don't reject God's word.

Well, you have already.

I accept that.

Are there parts that corroborate with what you like?

No, no, that's not really true.

I didn't want to...

I possibly didn't want to do all the changes I made in my life. But I did them because they were right.

How do you know they're right? Who called you?

Because I have good fruit.

Who called you?

Well, the master teachings.

What master teachings?

Jesus, the Tao Te Ching, the Bhagavad Gita.

So the Bhagavad Gita...

You know, all master teachers throughout the ages have said these things.

So the Bhagavad Gita, the mishmash of different spiritual beliefs and teachings...

Well, same thing in the Bible, there's a mishmash.

Oh, no, I would say it's a unified revelation and testimony.

I know you would, but...

Right, and I think I could demonstrate that.

That's what God says about it.

I know you would, but...

Right.

I know.

Right, so let me just ask you this final question. You seem to believe a lot of things based upon personal revelation and experience. If I said to you right now that I had an epiphany, that I'm your Messiah and your God, and you must worship me and follow me for the rest of your life, are you ready to come with me?

That would be immoral, because...

Who says?

You don't have the fruits that would show...

It's my personal experience. You don't know.

But I told you I have faith in humanity.

Okay, so have faith in me. I'm now your Messiah.

That's inordinate.

Who says?

I say, and we all say.

I'm the Messiah. You can't argue with my authority.

All that's silly.

You don't have an answer for it. You see, because...

Why do you say these things?

Because...

You say these things because you think them, but I don't say them.

Well, you're not giving me an answer. How do you argue with my personal experience? You just said, no, you're not.

Yes, I say, and everyone else says, no, you're not. Show the fruit.

Sure, I'll give you the fruit right now. I come to you with the words of the living God.

Okay, well, I'll follow them. If they match with the Bible, the Tao Te Ching, the Bhagavad Gita,.

So your worldview is you don't really know anything with certainty.

You say that.

No, that's what you said.

I don't say that.

It's all recorded.

You say that.

No, as a Christian, I wouldn't say that. We have certainty.

You say, you're putting words in my mouth.

Okay, so how do you know?

You're not being kind to me.

How do you know what you know?

How do you know what you know?

Okay, sir, you can't answer the question. I've already answered it.

You're not making sense.

Okay, I'll give you the answer.

I'll give you the answer.

I know what I know because I know when I prick my finger.

That's a nervous system. There's no knowledge there. It's a nervous system.

You said that in order to know what was true, you had to know what was real.

I know that I am here now.

How do you know that?

That's real.

Demonstrate it.

How do you know you're here?

Based upon revelation. God's Word provides...

That's fine.

Anytime you want to know things, that's fine.

God's Word provides the foundation for how I know that I have being, that the universe is what God says it is, that God is governing the universe, that I have a basis for science, immaterial laws of logic, a foundation for ethics.

Your worldview, when you take a mishmash of just what these people have had in private revelation and you in private revelation, leads you to no basis to justify your claims to knowledge.

Here's what I'll tell you.

Okay.

I have a very happy home with me, my three sons, my two sons, my uncle, who's a year older than I am. Very happy home. I have a happy relationship with my sisters, my brother, my father, my mother. I'm building a company that's beautiful and I don't cheat my employees.

Good for you.

That is real.

You're experiencing a lot of grace.

That is real.

Mm-hmm. Okay?

Right.

That is real. If you want to say I don't know what is real, you can put words in my mouth.

No, what I'm saying is...

You can put words in my mouth.

Well, let me, I can try to answer what you said.

But please don't do it.

I can try to answer what you said.

You're not being, you're not telling the truth.

I don't think you're hearing me.

As carefully as you can.

I don't think you're hearing me. Try to hear me.

I want you to tell the truth.

Okay.

Why should I?

As carefully as you can.

Why should I? Because that's what I want to hear. On what basis...

And that's what will make you a real boy. Is if you're good and kind and truthful.

Can you let me answer? On what basis...

I answered.

You asked me a question.

I gotcha. On what basis ought I to follow your standards that truth matters and I ought to be honest in a conversation?

Try them out.

Just, just give it a shot?

Give it a shot. If you've never heard it from anyone else, blow me off.

I got it.

But if it seems, well gee, I heard my mommy say that one day and my grandma said it too.

I hear ya.

Maybe I'm another messenger of God to you.

Your world view is pragmatism. Whatever works.

Just like Jesus is.

Whatever works.

By their fruit shall you know them.

Jesus, no. Sir, in the Sermon on the Mount, where Jesus talks about by the fruit you shall know them, he specifically refers to false teachers. You do realize that. And he spoke to their doctrine, false teaching.

So the bad fruit and good fruit Jesus referred to there, what's contained within that is false teaching. And he warns them to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees. False teaching. So anything that contradicted his word, his teaching, was false, was bad fruit.

The whole world contradicts.

It certainly does. And so the fruit that you've given tonight, according to Jesus, is bad fruit. You reject his testimony about himself.

That's utterly ridiculous.

What word do you have for Jesus when he says he's the way, the truth, and the life?

A happy home.

None of those things are going to save you.

No, they won't save you.

That is utterly ridiculous.

You're still on your sin.

Oh, that's silly.

That's why you need Jesus.

You reject Christ.

That is utterly silly.

Sir, you're rejecting his testimony, not ours.

What shall a prophet, a man, if he gains the whole world and yet loses his soul?

Exactly.

So none of those things are going to save you.

No, this is silly.

It's only faith in Jesus.

Sir, saying this is silly.

You boys are lost. Okay.

So, well, the difference between the two of us, just the three of us, is that we're saying you're lost in your sins on the testimony of Jesus. You're telling me that we're lost based upon the testimony of the Bhagavad Gita.

You're trying to prove to me I don't have the testimony of Jesus.

You don't.

That is the most absurd thing.

You reject his word.

That is the most absurd thing.

Okay, so I'll give you his word. He says, I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father but by me.

True or false? That was true.

Okay.

From a certain perspective.

From a certain perspective.

Notice how you have to add those words?

You have to qualify it.

Jesus doesn't qualify it.

This is unequivocal.

You qualify it for him because it doesn't fit your theology. You don't know Christ, sir. You don't know him.

Okay, that's fine.

And that's what we want you to know.

But I have salvation.

You don't. Not according to Christ.

That's fine. You can think that.

Sir, it's not based on, we're giving you the declaration of Scripture.

You are welcome to think that. I bless you.

Okay.

Go ahead.

There is no other name given under heaven among men whereby we must be saved. Jesus is the Messiah. He lived righteously, died for sinners and rose again. And you need to turn from your sin and come and believe on him and have trust and put your faith in him alone.

Oh, you know nothing about my having turned from my sins and the great work that God has done in me. You know nothing. Other than the little bit I have told you. You know nothing.

I see the bad fruit of your theology.

You stand here and judge me.

Sir, no. It's based upon God's revelation.

Theology is not what life is about.

Peter.

You just gave me theology. Do you realize that? When you said theology is not what life is about, that's a theological statement. You just refuted yourself.

Have fun.

Just encourage you to come to Christ, sir.

May your faith bring you joy. May your faith bring you great growth, great blessing. May it bring your children joy.

We appreciate the blessing.

May the peace of your children be great.

We appreciate the blessing. And we would encourage you.

And may you rejoice in heaven at the last day in the presence of the Father and all the holy angels.

Well, we can only do that because of Christ and his work on our behalf. We would encourage you to really grapple with the fact that Christ and his work is not yours if you don't trust in him and who he actually is.

If you're following a false Christ, believing in a false message of salvation, you don't know God. That is the clear teaching of Scripture from Genesis to Revelation. If you have the wrong God, the wrong way to God, you don't know him.

That's why Jesus came to die.

Well, that's wonderful.

It's wonderful for those who know him. It's terrifying for you.

You understand things about me you don't.

I'm only basing it on what you said.

There's no reason. I mean, if you don't need these cards, I'll take them. I was just trying to offer you a gift.

Well, we love you, sir. That's why we're here.

All I was doing was offering you a gift.

We appreciate it. And he was offering you a gift.

Do you have faith in me?

In what sense?

I have faith in you.

In what sense?

Do you have faith? I cannot know what is in your heart.

No, and nor we yours.

You cannot know what is in mine.

That's right. I can only go off what you say.

So why do you perform an inquisition?

I'm only basing it on what you say.

Why do you perform an ideological inquisition?

Sir, when you ask me a question, I'll try to give you an answer. I'll give you an answer.

You've been talking a lot.

Sir, you asked me a question.

Yes.

Did you want me to answer?