Alister Begg and Same-Sex Marriages

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00:02

Okay, so let me get started. Welcome to another

00:51

Theology Throwdown, where all of the Christian podcast community podcasters can come in and join and have a discussion on some theological topic.

01:01

And, well, tonight's topic is one of those ones that is not controversial at all.

01:08

Everyone's going to be in complete agreement, or not. There's no brush up at all on the internet on some pastor named

01:17

Alistair Begg or same -sex marriages. Nothing at all. Nothing at all. Nothing to see here. Well, I think there's going to be a lot of discussion.

01:25

In fact, this will probably be one of the more livelier ones, I'm guessing. But we have a number of the folks here, and I'm going to let each of the different podcasters to introduce themselves and give a quick elevator spiel, elevator pitch for their podcast.

01:43

And I'm just going to say maybe we should just sing happy birthday for one of the podcasters. I don't know.

01:49

We'll see if that individual will identify themselves when they introduce themselves.

01:55

But we'll start with Pastor Dominic. Go for it. Hey, Andrew, what's up?

02:01

Yes, Pastor Dominic Romali. I pastor a church here in Casa Grande, Arizona, and the podcast

02:08

I do is Street Talk Theology, where we take theology and bring it to the street. So it's an honor to be here tonight.

02:15

Thanks, guys. Next in was Rebecca. So Rebecca, if you want to unmute yourself.

02:24

Yes, hi. I am Rebecca Berschwinger, and I'm the host of One Little Candle podcast. And One Little Candle is a place where believers can come and be encouraged to be that light that God calls us to be, a witness for God, and to hopefully, by the time they've listened to me, make a difference in their own little corner of the world, no matter how small their sphere of influence might seem.

02:48

So we explore actually a lot of issues and topics that impact our faith and the world around us.

02:54

And then at the end, I steer my listeners to some practical guidance for responding to the issues and applying their

03:03

Christian principles to their everyday lives. And for folks who are listening on audio, your picture is not actually you, but it is a website to loventruthbooks .com.

03:16

So that's L -O -V -I -N truthbooks .com. Books that will help train your children against the transgender nonsense.

03:28

So you can check that out. Melissa, you are next up. Sure. My name is

03:35

Melissa Lacks. I'm the host of Thoroughly Equipped, and we basically look at women's ministry and the female teachers within it and look at some of their books and what their, quote unquote, either sermons or presentations and conferences, basically what they teach and then compare it to scripture.

03:58

And yeah, we basically use critical thinking and the scriptures to analyze what they've taught, basically.

04:09

And there's never any controversy in women's ministries. No. Oh, no, never. Let's go to another area where there's never controversy.

04:19

Eve Franklin, you are next in. Hi, yes. I'm Eve Franklin, and I'm one of the hosts of Are You Just Watching?

04:27

where we basically talk about a movie from a Christian worldview. We try to pick secular, something secular so that there's something to discuss.

04:37

And our most recent one that we just posted—actually, I think it just got in the feed today—is on the

04:43

Book of Clarence, which was recommended by another friend of mine, and that had some interesting theology in it.

04:51

So you might enjoy that podcast. Seeing a theme of critical thinking going through tonight.

04:57

So, Spencer, you're next up. Yes, thank you so much for having us.

05:03

We're happy to be here. I am Spencer, and I, along with my wife, the birthday girl here, we host the

05:10

Religionless Christianity Podcast. It's just a weekly podcast. We just take a look at whatever's happening in the world, news from this nation, around the world, and try to think about it from a

05:21

Christian perspective. So we've recently discussed Alistair Begg. Really, whatever is happening of note in the news, we try to offer up an opinion from what we believe to be the

05:34

Christian perspective, and how a Christian ought to digest that news and live in this world.

05:40

I guess not be too critical and speak the truth in love. We try to not be too harsh.

05:46

Unless it's needed, of course. I didn't throw you under the bus,

05:53

Nikki, just for the record. I am blessed. Another year that the Lord gave me my blessed wife.

06:01

What a wonderful joy. Next in was the man, the myth, the legend himself,

06:07

Mr. Phil Cessa. Hey, Phil Cessa here from Stop and Think About It podcast, where we look at things through a biblical lens, and having been able to come on for quite some time, and looking forward to spending some time with all of you, including

06:28

Andrew. And we got someone,

06:34

I think this is your first time, Brandon, to a Theology Throwdown. So, introduce yourself and your podcast, and welcome for a first time.

06:44

Hey, guys. I apologize. I have been incognito for a while. A lot going on on this end.

06:50

About to finish school, fingers crossed, and then off to seminary in about another year or two.

06:58

I'm not going to announce that because she might watch. But anyway, my podcast is called

07:05

The Ear, which stands for Evangelical Reform. And this month,

07:10

I am going to be attempting to bring that podcast back. A lot of life stuff happened that kind of took me out the loop for a while, but I'm trying to get back into it.

07:20

Now, for the record here, we have a police officer, Brandon. You're muted,

07:25

Andrew. I don't think so. Can you guys hear me? I can hear you.

07:30

Okay. Okay. So, we got a police officer, Brandon, and an ex -convict,

07:39

Pastor Dom. There you go. All together, Dom's ducking out of the way. See, this is what

07:44

Christ does. He brings the police and the criminals together. There we go.

07:50

All right. So, let's get into this. There's been lots of discussion. I've done two episodes on Apologetics Live discussing

07:57

Alistair Begg. We did one, and then Alistair came out with his sermon, just to clarify.

08:07

I don't know if it really clarified. For the record, if folks heard his sermon, I didn't get a chance to say this on Apologetics Live, but listening to the sermon, which,

08:20

A, I don't think you should use a text description to address something that you're trying to address online, okay?

08:28

But it sure seems like he didn't actually know. He's probably not online, and he's just going by what people told him, because it didn't seem like he actually was answering the things that people were saying.

08:41

So, you got to realize, he may not have known what's really being said and what's really out there.

08:47

But I want to start with some basic questions.

08:53

So, for folks who may not know, may not be on social media, good for you for not being on social media.

09:01

You're much happier. But if you're listening and you're going, hey, I love

09:06

Alistair Begg, what's going on? So, let me just give a quick synopsis of what transpired, and then we're all going to discuss it.

09:15

So, Alistair Begg had an interview, this is back in September, so this isn't actually recent, it's just that it got noticed or shared, and people started jumping on it.

09:27

But in this interview, somehow the issue of a same -sex wedding came up, or transgender wedding,

09:33

I'm not quite sure. However, the result was that Alistair came out and said that he was going to say something he knew some people wouldn't agree with, but he told a grandmother who had written to him, and he expressed that he said to the grandmother that, have you already shared that this lifestyle is wrong, shared that it's a sin, so he's acknowledged it was a sin.

10:07

But for the sake of the grandson, or transgender, we'll go with the grandson, because that's how

10:14

I thought I heard it. But said to the grandson, to go and attend this grandson's, and it's so hard to get it straight, whether it was a same -sex wedding, or whether they were both transgender and getting married, it was just, either way, it would sound like a same -sex wedding, where either one was transgender, what

10:37

I don't get. But, and he said, out of love, they expect you not to show, they expect you to be against their decision, you've already explained that, but his response was, go to the and even get a gift.

10:57

Why? Well, to show grace. The concern was on the focus on the relationship between the grandmother and the grandson.

11:08

Later, what ended up happening during the week, there was discussion, people started coming out and demanding that Shepard's Conference remove him, especially after, well, first it was

11:19

American Family Radio, and American Family Radio didn't actually talk to Alistair Begg, but someone on his team, on his staff, or whatever, and they decided to remove him.

11:34

And so after that, there was calls to remove him from Shepard's Conference. What I've heard,

11:41

I haven't heard from firsthand information, but from what my understanding is, Alistair and John MacArthur had a conversation and thought it best that Alistair pull out.

11:51

Whether Shepard's Conference removed him, whether Alistair pulled out, the argument was that it would be a distraction to the conference.

12:01

For the record, I've gone on record saying I don't think that that seems unlike Shepard's Conference.

12:08

I mean, typically, they would not uninvite someone, they would just bring the issues up in the Q &A.

12:14

So that's what they've done in the past. But that's what had happened after that.

12:22

There was also a sermon, oh, my bad sermon. Alistair usually does good sermons, for the record, but this was a bad one.

12:31

He basically tried to take, and I don't know if he was just in that portion of scripture, but he took the parable of the prodigal sons, and he took that and used that to explain the grace he was trying to show in this situation with the grandmother.

12:53

The parable of the prodigal sons has nothing to do with this whatsoever. It was really bad hermeneutics for that sermon, which is very unlike Alistair Begg.

13:04

So with that, the first thing I'd like to do is address, before we get to Alistair, address the same -sex marriage issue.

13:15

And by the way, I'm very clear to describe it that way. It's not homosexual marriage.

13:24

Homosexuals have been getting married for decades, for centuries. They get married to someone of the opposite sex, and they practice their homosexuality.

13:33

What we're talking about here is same -sex marriage, where two people of the same gender are getting together and calling it a marriage.

13:42

That's the distinction. So my first question, and we'll do a raise of hands to see who wants to tackle this one first.

13:52

The first question I have, I want to address the same -sex wedding part. So I want to first ask the general question.

14:01

Actually, maybe I'll just go around and ask each of you. I'll start with you, Dominic. Your view, can a

14:08

Christian attend a same -sex wedding? Yeah.

14:13

First of all, I don't think we should even call it a wedding. That's my first thing.

14:20

I don't know if we should call it a wedding, because the wedding that's ordained by God is between man and woman.

14:28

So I don't know what you want to call it. You can call it whatever you want, but I don't think we should call it a wedding.

14:34

And I think anytime that whatever you attend, I think you would give credence to it by attending it.

14:43

So I would say absolutely not. But I wouldn't call it a wedding, Andrew. I don't know what

14:49

I'd call it. You can give it a name and I'll respect it, but I wouldn't call it a wedding. I don't think we should attend something like that.

14:58

I think we give credence to it. Yeah. Let me just touch on that before we go to Spencer and Nikki.

15:05

I agree with you that it's, you know, why do they focus on calling it a wedding?

15:12

You know, when New Jersey was looking to enact a same -sex marriage and legalize it,

15:20

I went down to the hearing where they had for open discussion, and I asked all the legislature,

15:27

I just asked them two questions. I asked them if they, the first question was, do you believe in a separation of church and state?

15:35

And every one of them agreed that there's a separation of church and state. So my second question is, then why are none of you bowing out of this discussion altogether as members of the state trying to legislate a church issue?

15:52

You have no business in it. To which, of course, there was silence, and they voted for it anyway, because they just want the church out -of -state issues.

16:01

They don't want the state out -of -church issues. So yeah, I mean, and part of the thing

16:07

I had said to them is, you could call this a same -sex union. You could call it anything you want. So why are you stepping into trying to define what

16:15

God has defined? You know, and the answer is clear. Spencer?

16:22

Yeah, so, you know, call it same -sex marriage or union, whatever you want to call it. I think the question, can a

16:28

Christian go to a same -sex marriage? Sure, a Christian can go to a same -sex marriage. I don't think you're going to lose your salvation or be cast to hell for going to it.

16:36

I think the question is, should a Christian go to a same -sex marriage? And I think that is a resounding no, you should not attend.

16:43

I think if you do, you have the opportunity to object. I mean,

16:50

I don't think there's anything wrong with going and then stating why you don't approve of it.

16:56

Yes, but do you know that you'll be given that opportunity beforehand? You're right. I don't know.

17:02

I would assume if the person who's, like, the story of this grandson, he knows his grandmother's beliefs, then maybe they wouldn't even afford her the opportunity.

17:12

But ultimately, I think, sure, you can go. I don't think it's a salvation issue, but I think it's a resounding no, you should not.

17:19

Your allegiance and obedience should be to Christ and not to saving some relationship that probably wouldn't be lost in the first place to your grandson.

17:27

I think if you go and people know you're a Christian and you're going, you're causing confusion for everyone else, if you don't object.

17:37

Yeah, okay. Rebecca, your next tip. Yeah, you know, in talking about the subject,

17:47

I think first and foremost is, you know, why do people even attend a wedding? And people are invited or attend a wedding to celebrate something with the people that are being wed, and they're asking for your support and your commitment, you know, being witnesses to it in your approval.

18:08

For me, I don't think a Christian has any business being anywhere near a same -sex wedding ceremony, especially when

18:18

I think about that. I think about Ephesians 5 .11, which tells us as Christians that we're to take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, and God calls same -sex unions, relationships, you know, they're an abomination to him.

18:33

But we're instead, as the Christians, to expose unfruitful works of darkness. And it says, for it's shameful to even speak of the things that, you know, that they do in secret.

18:44

And I know it's not just, it's not referring specifically to homosexuals, but all kinds of sins.

18:49

So we are to come out from that and, you know, not take part in it at all.

18:58

All right. So, Melissa, you're up next. Yeah, I went right where Spencer went.

19:05

Can you go? Yes. Should you? No. You shouldn't, as a

19:10

Christian, because you want to call it a marriage again or a union.

19:16

They are basically saying vows to be unre, to live in this unrepentant state, to live in a union, and to not only just celebrate it, but persistently pursue it for however long they're going to be together.

19:39

And if you go, you're basically, even if you've said that you don't agree, and you've made your point that you don't agree, you are still celebrating that in a way by just going and giving.

19:57

I don't say, maybe you're not giving license to their pursuing of that sin for their, for their time together.

20:06

But you certainly, you know, are encouraging it by your presence,

20:13

I think. Eve, your thoughts? It's a tough question.

20:20

And as a person who has a brother who is living a sinful lifestyle, it's thankfully a choice

20:31

I've not had to make. But I think, as many have said, you, it,

20:37

I don't think it's a sin to go. I don't think it's something you have to repent of, if you do.

20:43

But you probably, for the sake of your witness, you probably shouldn't. Okay, Mr.

20:50

Filsessa. So I'm thinking a little bit broader, not just individually, but me also as a member of my church.

21:02

And I mean, myself specifically as a pastor. So it's not just me, it's me as a part of the body of Christ as well.

21:15

And so if I wasn't sure, I would seek counsel from those who are more mature.

21:25

I could not bring myself to go to, and I agree with the brother who said it's not a marriage, to a same sex gathering at all.

21:40

So I would, I would bow out and maybe send the invitation back with a gospel tract or something.

21:48

But, you know, maybe a letter, why, why I could, why I could not go, why

21:54

I love them to death. And I would try to have sort of a pastoral heart and an evangelistic heart sort of converge together.

22:08

And maybe even send them, you know, a copy of a book that of somebody who repented and they were on one side and now they're not.

22:17

So I might send that not as a wedding gift, but as an evangelistic gift.

22:25

Okay. And I should say for the record, Pastor Phil is in a building, he's with his daughter doing something, and he's pulled himself out.

22:35

So if his audio doesn't sound too good, he wanted to be here. And so he's, he's not in his usual podcast setup.

22:43

So just so folks know. Brandon, you're next. Two things.

22:53

One, the thing that ticks me off with the alphabet community is they like to hijack words and meanings.

23:00

Okay. And I want to sound as graceful as I can when I say this. I absolutely agree with Mr.

23:07

Dominique. It should not be called a wedding, okay, or a marriage, because God took that word and he consecrated that word for his purpose.

23:17

And what is a marriage? It's for a man and a woman to come together, be fruitful and multiply, and all the things that call it marriage.

23:25

And I also don't like the fact that they're basically attacking the church on something that we don't believe trying to force us to do it.

23:34

Now I had a coworker and I'll admit this. I did go to a wedding and my goal was to oppose it.

23:43

And I was not given that opportunity. So I, you know, and the person that invited me, she knew exactly where myself and my other coworkers stood on the issue.

23:54

We went because we love her, but we also went to preach the gospel, and the person that did the officiating of the wedding did not give us the opportunity to oppose.

24:07

So I am going to say a resounding no. A Christian should never attend a wedding, simply because it does hinder and hurt our witness to other people.

24:18

All right. So we have a new person who joined us here. And I don't know, it may be your first time ever being in a theology thorough, because you're usually in class, but the squirrel himself,

24:30

Mr. Gene Client, if you wouldn't mind first introduce yourself, give a quick plug for your podcast, and the question we're asking is, you know, can a

24:41

Christian attend a same -sex wedding? Yeah, normally I'm in class on Monday nights, so I can't be here, but they're doing preaching labs and I'm an auditor, so I don't participate in the labs.

24:54

So they won't let me preach for a grade when you're not taking the class for a grade. Yeah, Squirrel Chatter.

25:03

I think it's the only daily, or one of the very few dailies on the Christian podcast community.

25:09

One of the few, but there are a few. Yeah, you can bring me in. One more,

25:14

I think. No, actually, Spencer and Nikki do a daily five -minute, and then a weekend -longer one.

25:22

Well, five minutes, that's not a podcast. That's like a— Hey, I will tell you something. You try that,

25:28

Gene. I know, I know. That was the one that I dropped, because the Monday through Friday five -minute took me longer than the once a week one hour.

25:38

I mean, it is hard. It's longer than it is shorter. Yeah, yeah. Just for the record.

25:45

Squirrel Chatter is every Monday through Friday, a live webcast with video, 7 .30

25:51

a .m. on Twitter, Facebook, and Rumble. And then we upload the audio for anybody who wants to listen in the car, because watching a video while you're driving just isn't a good idea.

26:03

So we don't let that happen. But there is—this has been verified—there is a hamster that watches.

26:11

There is a hamster. Actually, right now I have a mouse. Darby the hamster, the sixth of her name, passed away, and we have yet to have auditions for Darby number seven.

26:24

But I have Fiona the mouse is right over here to my left. When the tagline goes that Squirrel Chatter is recorded in front of a live studio hamster, most of the time that's correct.

26:35

But Darby needs to be replaced. I've got some traveling to do this summer, and we decided bringing in a new young pet and trying to raise and tame a new young pet while I'm away would not be a good thing.

26:50

It's in a cage. It is in a cage, but you've got to hand -tame them and get them used to you and teach them.

26:58

If you just leave them in the cage and never interact with them, as soon as you stick your hand in there, you've got claw and bite marks everywhere.

27:06

You want to be friendly with a hamster. So anyway, to the topic at hand—and boy, this has been a hot one the last couple of weeks.

27:16

Andrew, Spencer had his hand up. Oh, yeah, I know. I know. I was going to come back to him. Okay. You wanted to make a comment about my comment.

27:27

So yeah, the topic of the day is a hot one, and with the degradation that we are seeing in our society, this is something that is going to be coming up more and more because it's becoming so ubiquitous.

27:49

Everybody's got a trans kid these days because the schools are just brainwashing them into identifying themselves as something other than what they actually are.

28:01

And I just keep thinking about the fact that this is a—when you read

28:09

Romans 1 and other—sorry,

28:19

Spencer, you threw me off track. When you read

28:24

Romans 1 and other passages, while sexual sins aren't going to damn you more than other sins, sexual sins seem to be used in the

28:37

Scriptures as a barometer sin. When you look at an individual or a society's level of acceptance of sexual depravity, that kind of tells you where they are in the level of rejection of God.

28:57

So as you see a society fall further and further into sexual degradation, this is a good indication of how far that society is moving away from God.

29:11

And right now, Western culture—it's not limited to America—it's Western culture.

29:17

It's America, Europe, Australia, New Zealand, Canada. The Protestant West has just—not that the

29:29

Roman Catholics are far behind us—but the Protestant West has fallen so far away from biblical morality and not even just Christianity and faith in Christ, but just standards of right and wrong.

29:45

And we've reached that point where it has become irrational. You know, when you think it's fine—I just heard a story last week about a college volleyball team, college girls volleyball team, and five of the six of the starting lineup are boys in skirts, and this is a college volleyball team.

30:09

And two of the five players, they've injured opposing players because men are just bigger and stronger.

30:19

That's by nature. And so it is shameful, but it is indicating the depraved mind of the end of Romans 1.

30:31

So should a Christian attend a homosexual or transgender wedding? No.

30:37

Because I don't think we can in any way, shape, or form appear in any way to approve of it.

30:47

And like has been said multiple times, I don't think any of us are advocating cutting these people off from all human interaction.

30:55

How else are we going to share the gospel? So if you're invited to Thanksgiving dinner, go.

31:02

If you're invited to the wedding, don't. I think it's pretty simple.

31:08

Because if you, you know, when they say, you know, I now pronounce you man and wife, whatever they have to say, dude and dude, you have to, you know, everybody stands up and applauds and stuff.

31:26

I would walk out long before that. I would walk out long before that.

31:32

If I even showed up at all. And I understand, you know, was it you,

31:38

Brandon, said you went to oppose one? You know, yeah. If you went and waited until you realized they were not going to say, if anyone has a valid reason why these two should not wed, speak now or forever hold your peace.

31:52

And you realize they weren't going to say that. Yeah. Get up and leave. I could stay that long. I'd be surprised that any, they'd have that at all.

32:03

That would be a gutsy move. That would be a pretty gutsy minister to even try that.

32:11

Yeah. A different generation had that. They had a,

32:17

I think it was a guy that just went online and got his ordination to do the wedding.

32:23

Yeah. Yeah. So he didn't know what he was doing anyway.

32:29

Spencer, you had your hand up. I don't know if it was just to say your daily or not, but go ahead.

32:36

No, yeah. It was just to clarify. The daily we don't do anymore now that I'm in school. It's just Saturday, you know, news,

32:43

Christian living, and then Sunday is a family devotional. That's like five to 10 minutes. And that's just those two for now.

32:49

Although, well, I guess we do, sorry, we do daily, but they're like daily shorts minute on YouTube, TikTok, Facebook and Instagram, but then the two podcasts.

32:59

So that was all I raised my hand for. Thanks for giving me the chance to. Yeah, not a problem. And I mean, it is, it is kind of sad that, you know,

33:05

Gene, having been the one to encourage his, his friend, you know,

33:10

Wayne Floyd to join us, you know, doesn't know that Wayne's also doing it daily.

33:16

Just saying, I mean, not that he should feel bad about that. I actually know that Wayne's is a daily.

33:24

I do. I do. I'm still picking salami out of my teeth because I was bolting down dinner.

33:32

So I get on and join you guys. So, so, you know, I, I've said this on Apologetics Live actually for the two weeks that we covered this topic.

33:42

But the, the reality is, is, you know, my view I made clear and I was in, you know, positions similar to Brandon.

33:51

My cousin, she left her husband, decided that she would quote unquote marry someone of the same gender and, and get together.

34:02

And they knew up front. I mean, my cousin told me, she goes, you know, I want to, I want to invite you to the wedding, but, you know,

34:09

I'm sure you're not going to come. So she knew ahead of time and it gave me a chance to sit down with her and, and her,

34:17

I don't know, girlfriend, whatever the partner that, which, what they claim. But, and I got to explain the reason

34:25

I said, look, the, the, the reason I cannot attend, my wife and I cannot attend is because first off, you're calling it a marriage and it's not a marriage.

34:37

If it wasn't for the fact that, you know, it's trying to corrupt what the, the biblical definition of marriage.

34:47

So, you know, I explained that view, I explained the gospel, I explained that I could not attend, though I still love them very much.

34:56

And I have a, I have a great relationship, you know, with both of them. I mean, we don't get together that much, but, you know,

35:04

I can sit and talk with either one of them. I can share the gospel with them. I have plenty of other opportunities to show love outside of the wedding.

35:15

And that's what I chose to do. You know, I, I will, I actually probably spend, you know, have,

35:21

I'm probably closest with her of, of my cousins on that side of the family, but either way,

35:28

I probably go out of my way more for her because of the fact that they have the perceived idea of Christians, and so I want to,

35:36

I want to counteract that, but I can counteract that outside of attending the wedding. And so that's how

35:42

I chose to do that. We kind of tackled the topic of, is it even a wedding? I think it's important to kind of address that.

35:52

And I mentioned this, and, you know, Jean, you kind of got to this. I, I mentioned on Apologetics Live, why is this a big issue?

36:03

You know, I would argue that 20 years ago, if you had two people that were of the same sex getting married, it wouldn't be as big of a deal as it is in 2024.

36:16

Why? I, you know, Jean, you're, you're a historian.

36:21

You'll probably give more explanations for this, but I'll start with the, just a few.

36:27

You look at history, look at the early Christian church time of the writing of the New Testament, you had an issue of circumcision being such an issue that for some it was like this dividing line, or what

36:39

I refer to as a watershed moment. There was a watershed issue where, where people said if you weren't circumcised they were going to question whether you're really, in that case

36:51

Jewish, really willing to commit to, to the, the Bible, the

36:56

Bible they had at the time. The, but after that, shortly after that, you see baptism.

37:05

Baptism became such a watershed issue that you, people today try to make an issue that you have to be baptized to be saved because they don't understand the times, and baptism was one of those watershed issues.

37:18

If you were not willing to make a public proclamation that you are converted to Christ, knowing that it would, you'd be rejected by family, you'd lose your work, you'd probably have to leave town, you'd lose everything.

37:32

If you weren't willing to do that for Christ, they questioned your salvation. That's why it was so tightly tied, and that's the same way it is, by the way, in, in, you know,

37:41

Muslim countries. If people don't make a public testimony, it's not something they do in the church. When they do it, they get baptized outside and it's public, in a country where you can kill someone if they're converted from Islam to something else.

37:58

And so if, if someone says they're a Christian in those countries and they're not willing to make a public proclamation of baptism, people question their salvation.

38:07

It's a watershed issue. Going further in history, there's issues where, when, when in, before Constantine, Christians were, the

38:17

Romans came in, said, give us your Bibles, and there were Christians said, we're not giving up our Bible, take us to jail.

38:23

And they were taken off to prison. Others that just thought, you know what, I'll give you my Bible because you're just going to take me off to prison and go take it anyway, at least

38:32

I'm not in prison. And so they'd give part of their Bible or, you know, one of the

38:37

Bibles if they have another, or give up, just give up the Bible and stay out of prison. And then Constantine just declares the whole

38:44

Roman Empire Christian. And those that went to jail or prison came out and questioned the salvation of what they called the compromisers, because they gave up the

38:57

Bible. They weren't really, could they really be Christian if they weren't willing to sacrifice for Christ? And I'm using those examples to say that it is historically seen where people will have these watershed issues in certain times, in certain places, that becomes such an issue that to go against it, people start to question salvation because of it.

39:24

And I think that this issue becomes one of them because, not from the Christian perspective, and this is going to be a thing

39:30

I'm going to ask each of you guys to give me your thoughts on, but it's really from the

39:36

LGBT, or I think, Brandon, you said the Alphabet Society people say, being pushed by Google, and Google's new name is

39:47

Alphabet. That's right. Hey, there you go, Brandon. But it's the

39:53

LGBT that are pushing for Christians to celebrate their sin, not just say that it's not enough for them to say, hey, we don't want you to call it sin.

40:05

That's not enough. They want us to celebrate their sin. They who claim to be tolerant are extremely intolerant and want to force

40:15

Christians to celebrate what they're doing, and that's why it makes it an issue. And I think that's why there's been the uproar with Alistair is because it is the celebration of a sinful lifestyle.

40:29

So, I mentioned some history. I'm going to let Gene start first as our kind of resonant historian, and then we'll go around.

40:37

I want to hear what each of you guys think with this. So, the question is this.

40:45

I think we'd all agree this is a watershed issue for us today, and this is a

40:52

Christian liberty issue. So, let me ask this as the question, and you guys can all interact with what

40:58

I've said, but then the question for you is, when does Christian liberty become a watershed issue?

41:04

So, when is it that we go from Christian liberty to say, no, this is something now that we got to say, this may not be a liberty issue for this time or in this area.

41:20

So, Gene, let's start with you. Even for a future time or a past time, just a point of correction,

41:27

Constantine did not make Christianity the state religion. He legalized it. Theodosius, 50, 60 years later, made it the state religion, but just a point of historical correction.

41:39

Yeah, the other thing was, you know, in the Roman Empire before Constantine legalized

41:45

Christianity, how many Christians refused to say Kaiser Kurios, Caesar is

41:53

Lord? You know, all you had to do was say Kaiser Kurios and drop a little pinch of incense in the brazier in front of the bust of Caesar, and you were good for another year, and they wouldn't bug you.

42:06

You could worship any god you wanted. You could have any religion you wanted, and Christians would not say

42:14

Kaiser Kurios because Jesus is Lord. And, you know, they were ostracized, imprisoned, many were killed.

42:26

But yes, the compromisers after the people got out of prison for being thrown in jail for being

42:31

Christians, those who had compromised, who now wanted back in the church.

42:37

You have almost 100 years of dispute over that. There was even question about, well, your grandfather was baptized by a guy who later compromised, therefore you're not a

42:50

Christian. It was getting pretty technical, you know, as to how you were baptized.

42:56

Is this a watershed issue or a Christian liberty issue? I don't think so, because in every aspect of Christian liberty that we have, we are never at liberty to deny the truth.

43:15

God is truth. We cannot deny the truth and remain true to God, not without sinning.

43:25

And so I see that as beyond a Christian liberty issue, because with a

43:31

Christian liberty issue, you know, can you have a beer with your burger or a glass of wine with your spaghetti?

43:38

That's a Christian liberty issue. But you're not denying the truth at that point.

43:44

And so I think that's the key thing there is, are you denying the truth? And when you in any way affirm a homosexual relationship, you're denying the truth.

43:59

All right. One thing, I don't know if anybody mentioned it before I got on, because I was late joining you guys, but marriage in Scripture is the picture of Christ in the church.

44:16

And anything that distorts that picture really is a bigger issue than I think a lot of people want to admit it is.

44:28

We all want to be nice. We want our friends to like us, but there are things we can and cannot do.

44:37

And so, I mean, 50 years ago, this wouldn't be a problem, you know?

44:43

Although I guess 50 years ago, it would have cost Annette Bryant her music career to oppose homosexuality in the 70s.

44:52

You know, that pretty much ended her music career. But you go back to the 40s or 50s, and being a homosexual was still illegal.

45:03

So this is rapid. This is a very rapid change that we are seeing in our society.

45:11

And, I mean, it's like in the late 50s, early 60s, somebody opened up the

45:18

Bible to Romans 1 and said, here we go, guys. They started the clock, and we've just progressed through the end of Romans 1 in our society really in the last 50, 60 years.

45:31

My lifetime. And it's scary and very saddening.

45:40

I never would—yeah, Dom? No, again, Gene. I'm listening. Okay, you raised your hand.

45:46

I thought you had something to say. No, again, I'm sorry. Yeah, no, just saying that it's been very rapid, faster than I ever thought

45:55

I'd see. I never expected to be dealing with this, even when

46:02

I got into the ministry 20 years ago. I never expected to be dealing with this. It has been blindingly fast and getting faster, happening more and more rapidly.

46:15

Yeah. Dom, why don't you go? Yeah, and I think that Gene hit a good point, because that's—if you put all the players on the side, names and faces and all that, the bottom line in Scripture is that marriage is a picture of the church being married to the

46:34

Christ. And I think when you demean that in any way, shape, or form, it's coming against the inherent

46:44

Word of God. And that's the issue. It's not the faces or the names or the—you know, what's the old show,

46:55

Gene? The names have been changed to protect the innocent, right? It really has nothing to do with—you can put those faces on anything,

47:03

Andrew. The thing is that if something opposes Scripture, if we start capitulating there, it doesn't matter who it is, who you are.

47:15

At the end of the day, it's—the Bible says that that entity, that that marriage represents a bigger issue than just the marriage itself.

47:28

It represents the bride of Christ and the bridegroom who is Christ. So I think theologically it's a no -brainer, you know.

47:40

But, you know, Andrew, just quickly, and I don't want to take up a lot of time because there's a lot of people on, is that, you know, we're all going to be challenged in our churches one way or the other, because there's a lot of churches that are capitulating with the culture.

47:57

If it isn't with that, it's with another thing. And so welcome to the ministry,

48:06

Andrew. Yeah, yeah. Brandon, let me go to you next.

48:13

What are your thoughts? I'm going to allow Ms. Rebecca to go. She has her hand raised. Oh, I didn't notice that.

48:20

Thanks, Rebecca, you're next. Thanks, Brandon. I was going to go around to everyone anyway, but—

48:25

Oh, that's—yeah. No, I just—before it went out of my head, yeah, as far as being a

48:31

Christian issue, I don't feel as Christians we have any liberty to attend a same -sex ceremony unless, like Brandon, you were there to object, which most people that attend a

48:44

Christian wedding say they're Christian and, you know, still view traditional marriage as the right way,

48:50

God's way. They're going to support it whether they mean to or not.

48:56

Their presence there is, in fact, approval, and I think it's read that way by the people, you know, that are getting, quote -unquote, married.

49:08

And it is a ceremony that does mock something very holy. And so to attend, unless, again, like you're doing like Brandon did,

49:18

I believe it's definitely a sin for a Christian to something they need to repent for to say—because our actions have to line up with our words.

49:28

And, you know, I—and we should be avoiding even giving the appearance of evil. I had a pastor tell me who he's very much—he stands for traditional marriage,

49:39

God's way, but he also told me that if a friend asked him to, he would attend a same -sex wedding ceremony.

49:49

And I looked—I couldn't believe when he said that. I said, you've got to be kidding me. Um, if people see you there as a pastor, you're giving very mixed signals at the very least.

50:04

And people are going to somehow look for a way to feel as though you're somehow approving just by your presence there.

50:12

You know, I think we have to really be firm in our stance. And who says it's not loving? What's to say it's not loving to not go?

50:18

I think it's a very loving thing to do, to not attend. You know, it's unloving to shun the person, and I would never do that.

50:27

I have a niece who got married—well, married, quote -unquote, you know. We did not go.

50:35

And—but we love them. And outside of that, I haven't—we love them. We have a relationship with them, but we did not attend.

50:43

But yeah, I don't—definitely don't think it's a matter of Christian liberty. All right.

50:50

I'm gonna—I have a sister that's a lesbian, okay? And I kind of saw the signs very early on in her childhood.

51:00

And my oldest sister—and I'm still mad at her for this— made the remark that my sister needs to be baptized, which there is some truth to that.

51:12

I'm not upset about her saying that. But everybody here understands that baptism means this.

51:19

It means, like, you know, you are dying to yourself. You're rising to Christ. And I was not going to go.

51:27

And now, in the grand scheme of things, I should not have gone, because now this very sister that got baptized did not die to herself, and now she's living in a homosexual lifestyle.

51:41

And she asked me the question the other day if I would go to her wedding if she was to get married. And I told her, excuse my language, heck no.

51:49

I'm not attending your wedding. I'm not taking your pictures. I'm not even going to be the armed security guard at your wedding.

51:55

Like, you know where I stand. Why would you even do that? And she jokingly said, no,

52:01

I just—you know, I just had to ask you in case it happened. And everybody knows

52:06

I plan to be an ordained minister. I'm working toward that goal. And she's like, well, would you do the wedding?

52:11

I'm like, no, you're going to have to find someone else to live that lifestyle with you and live in sin with you, because I am not at liberty to do that.

52:20

Now, yeah, like Jean said, can you have a glass of wine with your meal?

52:25

Yes, you have liberty to do that. Just don't get caught and drunk with this. And I think that's the issue with Alistair Begg is, you know, he's probably coming from a very good spot of love, but is skewed by what the world wants versus what

52:43

God says. And I think that's the problem we have with a lot of these pastors.

52:49

So that's my take on it. Yeah. And for time, let me ask, does anyone else want to address that question?

52:55

If not, I wanted to go with something that Brandon just said. Go for it, Spencer. Yeah, I think, you know, the question that you asked was, how can we know when we're facing a watershed moment?

53:08

And what initially came to my mind, probably because I need to be sanctified further, was, you know, how do you know porn?

53:16

Like, it's hard to explain, but you know it when you see it. And, you know, I think it was Rebecca who referenced

53:21

Ephesians 511 earlier, you know, to take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead to expose them.

53:29

Well, in order to expose something, you have to be aware of what's going on around you. And if you're aware of what's going on around you in America and you have, you know, national leadership hanging pride flags from the

53:38

Capitol building, you have entire months devoted to a specific sin, and all of this stuff, you know, really highlighting one specific sin, you should really be cued in that this is probably the watershed moment

53:50

I'm facing now, right? It may be different later and hope to God it will be different later. We'll face some other sin and we'll win the battle here maybe, but you have to have your eyes open so that you can expose it, so you can stand against it.

54:04

And this was largely our big complaint against Alistair Begg. I was kind of with Brandon. I think the principle was right.

54:10

We should love our brothers and sisters. We should do anything we can to share the gospel with them and bring them to salvation, to a point, right?

54:20

I think his principle was right. His application was wrong, because we don't sin in hopes of doing good. That is not a

54:27

Christian principle. So I think he got the application wrong. And I just think, yeah, you have to be aware of it.

54:34

And, you know, in this country, in this time, we're getting some huge blinking red lights about what the watershed sin of our day is.

54:43

You don't want to miss that. Yeah, Brandon. I also want to say this.

54:51

I'm still in law enforcement. I'm coming up on nine years. But I spent a good bit of six years, two years to be specific, working in the juvenile section, where I was investigating crimes against juveniles.

55:05

And I'm not talking about random, you know, you beat your child here. I'm talking sex crimes.

55:11

And every single case that I worked or touched had something to do with the skewed view of sex and homosexuality.

55:21

And what scares me is, when a pastor who is supposed to be leading God's people comes out and says, yeah, go to that wedding and buy a gift, you're basically telling thousands of people that listen to you that it is okay to partake in a sin.

55:39

And what I want to add is, you know, Spence, I don't know if you're going to school to be a pastor or not.

55:45

But those of us that are in positions of leadership, I'm an elder in my church. I'm in a position of leadership.

55:52

And I'm also in a position of influence. And with that influence comes great responsibility that is given to us by God.

56:00

So I think it's very important that we do. Yes, we have to hold Alistair Begg accountable. And yes, we have to make sure that we're not participating in the world.

56:10

I think our liberty is limited. And it's limited by the parameters that God set for us in His Word.

56:19

And that's sort of what Pastor Phil said. He represents his church as well.

56:26

Spencer, I saw your hand go up. I just wanted to mention, I am in seminary, so hopefully someday

56:31

I'll be blessed. But I like that point that he mentioned there. He's speaking to all these people.

56:36

He's not just talking to a grandmother, right? He's talking to thousands of people through his truth for life, then his sermons.

56:42

And this was a big problem. Because again, I think the principle was right. But we live in a time where everything is muddied.

56:48

We kind of talked about on our podcast, crooked lines are being drawn everywhere. And in a time like this, it's so important for the church to be the one who draws the straight lines.

56:57

We do have Christian liberty, but at some point, we need to be black and white people. Like this is sin, you don't partake in sin.

57:04

Not just gray all over the place. You kind of have to be black and white, especially in a watershed moment.

57:09

I think now is the time Alistair should be drawing straight lines, really helping his people.

57:15

Instead of muddying up the waters further, just like every other Andy Stanley, Zach Lambert in the world is muddying up the waters.

57:22

We need some... And Alistair Begg should be that pastor. He has been that pastor for 50 years.

57:27

And now he's not, which is why it's so alarming. And we're right to be alarmed. But he should be making the water clear, not muddying it up more.

57:35

Okay, Melissa. So I'm trying to wrestle with the liberty to watershed.

57:45

And when you defined watershed, you included other Christians stating that people who do that action are actually not

57:57

Christians. So going based off of that, I have to say that the advice by Alistair Begg, and even if the grandmother went to the gay marriage, or let's just gay union, because it's not a marriage, and say even somebody, a

58:18

Christian goes there and supports it, they are still, as long as they're trusting in Christ and his work, they are still a

58:26

Christian. So to me, I don't think it's exactly the watershed moment as you define it.

58:32

But here's where I would say that it's highly, highly important. And remember, a liberty issue is always guided by what

58:45

Paul says, love, right? Love for our neighbor. It always curtails our liberty.

58:52

It's we walk in liberty, to love and spread the more importantly, to spread the gospel.

59:00

I think the issue is that this is a law issue, right?

59:06

It's they are transgressing the law. And we are by going to the marriage supporting their transgression of the law.

59:15

And what they really want is to be told that they're righteous in their sin, that they're still okay.

59:24

They don't need Christ. So this is where the gospel is hindered when we don't stand up for those things.

59:33

That's where I think then it becomes a watershed issue. Not that the individual is not a

59:39

Christian who may have attended the wedding and the

59:44

Christian themselves attended the wedding or whatever. That is something, if they're believing in Christ, they're not mature.

59:53

We all have blind spots. Obviously, Alistair Begg had a big blind spot,

59:59

I think. But that doesn't mean he's not a Christian. But we hinder the law, or we hinder the gospel and make the gospel unnecessary, make

01:00:12

Christ unnecessary if we say that sin is okay, if we approve this sin.

01:00:20

So I think that's where we draw the line. And for the record, there are people questioning Alistair Begg's salvation on this.

01:00:26

It was really funny because I put a post on Facebook and someone challenged me, because I basically asked the question of if the people that were calling out saying

01:00:38

Shepard's Conference has to remove him, and I asked if Shepard's Conference doesn't remove

01:00:44

Alistair Begg, are you going to now? Because I said in this rush to cancel Alistair Begg, if they don't, are you going to cancel

01:00:51

John MacArthur? And I had someone saying, oh, no one's canceling Alistair Begg.

01:00:56

I'm like, well, let's see. People are demanding he gets off AFR radio, demanding he not be at Shepard's Conference.

01:01:02

That's the definition of cancellation. But the thing is, it was funny, because a person who goes, no one's being that hard, and I was like, look at the comment right underneath yours, where the word was

01:01:14

Matthew 7, 21 -23. What is Matthew 7, 21 -23? Many will come to me in that day and say,

01:01:21

Lord, Lord, haven't we done many great things in your name, cast out demons, healed the sick, done many miracles? And Jesus says, and I will declare to you,

01:01:29

I never knew you. Right? They're questioning his salvation, and that wasn't the only one.

01:01:34

I saw that passage listed about a half dozen times throughout the thread. There's many people who are questioning his salvation over it.

01:01:43

Now, should they? I agree with you, Melissa. They shouldn't. But just like in the third century, they shouldn't have questioned if you still believe in Christ, but you gave up your

01:01:55

Bible to save your life. Should they have questioned? No.

01:02:00

Should they have questioned if someone didn't get baptized? No. That's not how you're saved. But it becomes an issue that people start to make anonymous with it.

01:02:09

Go ahead. And I just wanted to say before you pass it on, I wanted to say that if you want to make attending a gay wedding a watershed issue, we need to go back to even before when marriage for people who committed adultery and left the marriage and divorced under unbiblical terms, and yet Christians still attended those weddings.

01:02:33

There was no watershed discussion there. Nobody was questioning another Christian.

01:02:39

We were supposed to speak up then. We'd have a much more higher regard for what marriage is and the knowledge for marriages if we stood our ground back then.

01:02:48

Yep. Yeah, I agree with you. Gene. Yeah, I was just going to say, playing off what

01:02:55

Melissa said, I think it is wrong to say, you know, to question or say

01:03:01

Alistair Begg is a heretic. He's not. As a matter of fact, I would say you're going too far to say he's a compromiser, because he is very clear that homosexuality and transgenderism is sin.

01:03:15

He's never denied that. He's never even been soft on it, I don't think. Actually, he just recently preached

01:03:21

Romans 1. Exactly, and I was thinking about that exact series. It was flat out hammer on nail.

01:03:31

He had it right. So I understand his, you know,

01:03:38

I understand what he was saying and what he was going for in his advice, but it was still bad advice.

01:03:48

I think Melissa was right. He has a blind spot. He's not seeing how attending is affirming.

01:03:55

Yeah. He's seeing attending as, you know, loving the sinner but hating the sin, but it's not.

01:04:05

Because frankly, unless you're wearing a t -shirt that says homosexuality is sin, repent and trust

01:04:12

Christ, nobody's going to look across the room and see you sitting there and know why you're there.

01:04:18

Correct. You're going to look across the room and see you sitting there and assume you're there to celebrate the wedding.

01:04:26

Yep. And to be a witness, because that's what you'd be doing anyway. And to witness and affirm the wedding, which is what you're there to do in the formal sense.

01:04:36

So I just, you know, yeah, I think, yeah, in that sense, nobody should be questioning

01:04:43

Alistair Beggs. Nobody should be canceling him. As I said last week on Squirrel Chatter, I have had to move

01:04:53

Alistair Begg from my recommend wholeheartedly column to my recommend with reservation column.

01:05:01

Yeah, you and also on Truth Be Known, you know, Eckie said the same thing, and I think that was a fair way of looking at it as saying, look,

01:05:11

I said this on Apologetics Live, is Alistair a heretic? No. Is he, is he someone, well, we'll get to the whether we should mark and avoid him, so I'll hold that question.

01:05:22

But, you know, is he someone who I can endorse? You know,

01:05:27

I would still endorse his teaching. I, you know, but now it's a little question.

01:05:34

Now, here's the thing. Is he going down the path of an Andy Stanley? Well, time will tell. Right? There's I don't even see that.

01:05:42

Yes, I don't see it. But, and he's at toward the end. And, you know, okay, people do kind of do things funny when they're when they get to older age.

01:05:49

But yeah, there's there's now supposedly coming out that he allowed a woman to preach at the pulpit, whether it was really preaching or giving a testimony that I don't know for a fact.

01:05:56

So, you know, it's like one of the things like you said, you know, we got to just watch. But yeah,

01:06:01

I don't, I don't see him going heretical. I'd be surprised.

01:06:07

But Rebecca, you have your hand up. Yeah, so I was just gonna say I, I listened to Alistair Begg every day on the radio.

01:06:14

When I get out of work, he's on. I listened to him on the way home. I have his devotional truth for life.

01:06:20

We do that devotional every day of his and when I first heard about the advice he gave, you know, my heart sank.

01:06:28

I was I was disappointed. And I thought to myself, Oh, Alistair, like, I don't think that was such a great idea.

01:06:35

You know, I disagreed with it. And I was disappointed. But I didn't automatically think that, oh, he's a, you know, a heretic or anything like that, or question his

01:06:47

Christianity. But I also think that is in the Christian community, we really do have to be careful in how we respond to this, it has to be a prayerful response, because talk about ruining our

01:07:00

Christian witness, you know, how the Christian community response to this is also gonna, people are noticing, you know, are watching.

01:07:08

So we have to be careful. Yeah. So, and I want to get to that, or the

01:07:14

Christian response to him. So we got Melissa, Brandon, then Dominic. You want me to answer the

01:07:20

Christian response, or am I stating what I wanted to say? Say what you want to say. Okay. Oh, yeah,

01:07:26

I want to say, I just want to say that I think every

01:07:32

Christian needs to have discernment, even with our Reformed brothers, who

01:07:38

I think are so strong in the Word. I mean, because people, I saw in Twitter and discussion that people are comparing the

01:07:46

Alistair Begg thing to John MacArthur. And so, you know, the John MacArthur issue with the discipline that they did with,

01:07:54

I forget what her name is. But anyway, it was a big kerfuffle from Julie Roys and stuff like that.

01:08:02

My thing is, on both of those, they were advice issues, or discipline issues, or personal individual advice for the family or the individual at the time.

01:08:19

And all pastors are at one time going to give bad advice. I think of Luther, who made some very bad decisions, who gave some very bad advice to princes, who ended up killing people because of his advice, his suggestions.

01:08:39

So, but that's not going to make me not think that Luther was a great guy, and that I'm going to just cast aside all his teachings.

01:08:51

And I think every single pastor is going to have this.

01:08:56

So, we just have to say, okay, like you said, Andrew, just look and watch him.

01:09:04

I would still say, yeah, go listen to him. And then just say, yeah, he said this.

01:09:10

I don't agree with it, but go listen to the rest of his stuff. I think he's a great teacher. And then from then on, you know, just keep an eye on it.

01:09:19

But I have to keep an eye on every teacher. And for regular listeners, we all know,

01:09:26

Melissa, that you are a closet Lutheran. You've announced that on other episodes.

01:09:32

So, we know that about you. So, Brandon— He's a man after my own heart, or my heart is after his.

01:09:37

I don't know. Brandon, you're up next. Well, I'm a

01:09:42

Reformed Presbyterian, so there you go. No, I was going to answer the question on, you know, your upcoming question,

01:09:52

Andrew. And I put in a group chat that I think it's smart for us to discipline

01:09:59

Alistair in a loving, graceful way and then restore him versus, oh, we need to kick him off the air, kick him out of the

01:10:10

Shepherd's Conference, this and that. Because I'm going to be honest with you. I may be a Presbyterian, but I have learned a lot under Alistair Begg's teachings.

01:10:19

And I am not ready to throw that baby out with the bathwater. I'm just not. I'm not there yet.

01:10:26

But I will say, yeah, I am going to be more reserved than what he preaches. But you know what my job is as a

01:10:31

Christian as well? It's to pray for that man, to ensure that God will continue to use him for his glory and to keep him on the right track so that many more souls will be saved for the sake of Christ.

01:10:43

And I don't want us to lose that mission that we're called to pray for one another.

01:10:52

And I think we definitely need to do that as a body instead of just kicking him out and telling him to go find another child.

01:10:57

Yeah. Dominic, you had your hand up. Yeah. And I have to go, guys, but I really appreciate this conversation.

01:11:04

But I do want to say this and maybe I, you know, we live in different times.

01:11:10

I mean, this is our time. I mean, we're governed by the word of God. You know, this is not

01:11:15

Paul's time or Moses' time. This is Andrew's time and Spencer's time and Brandon's time.

01:11:22

And we're going to be responsible for where we're put on this earth at this time for such a time as this.

01:11:29

And, you know, these are things that maybe all may be dealt with a little bit in the

01:11:35

Roman culture, but these are huge issues today. And I guess we're going to have to take stands and sometimes there'll be tough stands.

01:11:43

But these are our times. These are the culture we live in right now. And, you know, what happened to people before us, maybe they didn't deal with these issues as much as they're at the forefront.

01:11:57

So I think we've got to make decisions on those aspects of the times that we live in today and what we're going to be called to do to how we can capitulate with the culture.

01:12:09

So none of that stuff's going to be easy. But you guys have been an encouragement to me and I just I pray for all of us to finish strong because I think that's the thing.

01:12:23

We see, you know, some people at the end and that's why I got to look at myself first before anybody else.

01:12:33

I just hope all of us by God's grace can finish strong. Yeah. Spencer, you got your hand up.

01:12:41

You got to unmute yourself, though. That usually helps. You are, you know, not a professional podcaster.

01:12:47

You don't get paid for it. But an experienced podcaster. Well, I'm reminded every time I put out an episode that I'm not actually a professional worth listening to.

01:12:55

So that's all right. No, I just figured since Brandon kind of dove in on the should we cancel him kind of question,

01:13:02

I would offer up my opinion on that if we're going down that road. If we're not, please stop me.

01:13:08

But I don't think we should cancel him yet. But I'll be honest.

01:13:14

The least concerning thing that I've seen from Alistair Begg lately was his advice to the grandma.

01:13:19

I've been far more concerned with Alistair after the fact than that, because like I said, I thought his principle was right.

01:13:26

Love to the extreme. Do what you can to reach people, but bad application. But since then, I don't know if it's just a pride issue in him, because I get that you're not going to listen to religionless

01:13:37

Christianity and Spencer Toasty tell you what you should or shouldn't do. He's Alistair Begg. But when you've got all of basically

01:13:45

Christendom coming down and telling you you're wrong and his equals to John MacArthur's, I think it was

01:13:51

Phil Johnson who came out when they removed him from the Shepherds Conference and said John would give completely different advice than what

01:13:58

Alistair did. And I'm sure when they talked, I would imagine that was brought up. So he doesn't have to listen to me, but not listening.

01:14:06

I mean, what's the point of iron sharpening iron if you refuse to be sharpened? And then even like you mentioned, listening to his sermon after the fact was probably even more alarming, right?

01:14:17

Because the prodigal son is not about you telling a grandmother to go to a transgender wedding.

01:14:24

You're misrepresenting scripture there, I think. And the pride issue just seems to be, because I think even in that sermon, he talked about how, well,

01:14:33

I've never been with the American evangelicals and those fundamentalists. It's almost like he was calling basically

01:14:42

American Christians extremists who had some warped theology where we should understand that he comes from a different tradition that's more,

01:14:50

I guess, in line with Christ's teachings, which I think was off base. And that's what concerns me about Alistair Begg, which is why

01:14:58

I think if it was just that standalone statement, I would be like, yeah, Alistair's fine. Go listen to all of his stuff and whatever he says that's not included in this.

01:15:08

But when I think the pride issue starts becoming what I think is apparent, and he's kind of taking this strong stand that he's right and everyone else is wrong, it also makes me think

01:15:18

I'm not a pastor, so maybe you pastors can clear this up. But I don't know how you handle necessarily church discipline in your own church.

01:15:27

When you do something wrong, all of the church tells you you're wrong and you refuse to acknowledge it, then how do you go to a member in your own church and go, hey, you shouldn't be sleeping with your girlfriend.

01:15:37

And they go, I think we're married in God's eyes. Have a nice day, Alistair. I mean, I don't know how you handle that question, right?

01:15:43

Because he's kind of set himself up to, I guess, lose some authority on that ground.

01:15:48

At least that's the way I see it. So I am concerned with Alistair, definitely watching him a little bit closer, scrutinizing a little bit closer everything

01:15:56

I hear him say, which was not the case with just the initial statement. Okay, so let me say some things.

01:16:04

I know Brandon raised his hand. Melissa, you got your hand up. Because I want to transition to how the

01:16:09

Christian reaction, okay? And with the time we got left,

01:16:15

I think it'd be good to discuss this, because we already started a bit talking about the cancellation, and it was.

01:16:21

I mean, that's when you're calling for people to be removed, that is cancellation, right?

01:16:27

Should it be? Well, there are times if someone, you know, Andy Stanley. Well, if Andy Stanley was invited to Shepherd's Conference, okay, just get over that thought.

01:16:36

But if he was, there'd be a reason they invited him. But it would be something where he was already in line, and maybe something happened over the year.

01:16:49

Let's take the real world example. You know, Al Mohler was invited, what, two years before, and they had the conference, and issues came up, and so they discussed it at the conference.

01:17:01

But let me just give some thoughts, right, with what we've heard so far.

01:17:09

And I have, it's sad that I have to do this, but I got to state again for the record, so people don't take me out of context,

01:17:14

I've already stated it. I think the advice he gave was wrong. I don't think it was good advice, okay?

01:17:22

Now, let's take a step back and examine this from a view of grace, right?

01:17:29

First off, did he know the grandmother? Is there something that Alistair Begg knew about this family that, because he said in that sermon that he wouldn't have given the same advice to others.

01:17:46

Hmm. Is there something he knows about the family that is why he gave that specific advice to that person, why he says he wouldn't give the same advice to someone else?

01:18:00

And because if that's the case, I get news for you, as a pastor, he's not going to share that, right?

01:18:07

And shouldn't share that. Maybe he should just, he could have just said, well, there's things I know about the family.

01:18:13

Done. That could, you're right, that could say, you know, clarify things, but it could be that, you know, we're also dealing with a local church issue.

01:18:22

This is something that should be handled within the local church. Part of the problem with internet

01:18:29

Christianity is the internet thinks they have the right to practice church discipline on everyone on the internet that they disagree with, right?

01:18:40

And so I want to try to show grace to Alistair, because I also have the question that, like, if I was talking to Alistair about this, the questions

01:18:48

I would ask is, how well do you know the family? Are there specific reasons that your knowledge of the situation gave you this, the reason for this advice?

01:18:59

You know, the other thing is, you know, I take a step back and say, how knowledgeable is

01:19:07

Alistair on some of the issues of the day? I mean, look, in his generation being, what, 71, does he have a computer?

01:19:21

And for some people, they're like, oh, of course he does. You know, not everyone does.

01:19:28

You know, my understanding is, you know, like Steve Lawson still writes out his messages.

01:19:36

He's not on a computer. So there are people that don't have smartphones and computers and are up on social media.

01:19:45

Most of these guys are not on social media. You may see a John MacArthur account on social media, but I'm pretty sure that's not

01:19:52

John MacArthur, right? That's someone who's managing it. And so I think that, in my opinion, and I said this on Apologetics Live, I think both sides are wrong.

01:20:08

It was wrong advice that Alistair gave, and it was wrong for everyone to jump on him so vigorously, so quickly, without taking a step back to say, here's someone who's been faithful at the pulpit for 40 years, just recently preached against homosexuality.

01:20:25

Maybe we should understand before we go on the attack. And that's kind of the thing

01:20:31

I've said. Now, that may spur things up, and I know that it'll probably take us to the rest of the time.

01:20:37

So let me, I'm going to throw this out too. So the question is, how should we, like, should we mark and avoid him?

01:20:43

We've kind of already addressed the cancellation issue. And Melissa, I know your hand went down, but you could still answer whatever you wanted to say.

01:20:52

But I also want to ask this, and I want to throw this out for thinking, and this is a question

01:20:59

I'd be curious for each of you if you want to answer. Would you go to a

01:21:05

Roman Catholic christening where they are believing that they are, by the same that the wedding is being butchered, the same thing, they're butchering the meaning of this?

01:21:28

Now, I think for me, I would probably go, well, I could attend the christening, probably because it's not a watershed issue.

01:21:36

It's not, the Catholics are not trying to force it in our face the way LGBT is with the wedding.

01:21:42

So I'll give my answer. It's a water issue. Go ahead, Phil. It's just a water issue.

01:21:51

It's just a water issue. And Phil, as a Baptist, it's a question of how much water.

01:21:58

It was a water issue, no shed. Yeah, water issue, no shed. Leave it to Phil to bring in some good humor.

01:22:08

Okay, so Melissa, I know you had your hand up, and then I think Brendan kind of raised his hand physically, so we'll go in that order.

01:22:15

Okay, I'll try to answer both of your questions. Continuing to show grace to Alistair Begg, I wonder, his doubling down and being unrepentant, if he's literally looking at this as a liberty issue, as in, if Christians on one side are saying, it's okay, but the other

01:22:39

Christians, the ones who have the big highest voices, us, are telling him, no, you should have told her this, and you are wrong, or you're unsaved, if that's what some of the, or a false teacher, if that's what some of the people are saying.

01:22:58

I'm wondering if he's coming down and thinking on this as in, Paul, when he had to decide about circumcision.

01:23:06

He had Timothy circumcised, and Titus not, because of the backlash, or what was, once the

01:23:19

Judaizers were saying, you have to circumcise, that's when he put his foot down, and was like, no,

01:23:26

I don't, this is not a salvation issue. So, I'm wondering if he kind of is equating it to that, not seeing it.

01:23:33

So, that's where I want to give him the grace with the kind of pushback, but I do wish

01:23:40

I heard some more before I say anything. Again, I wouldn't cancel them.

01:23:45

And then the other question would be, that you asked about going to a christening.

01:23:51

I've been to a Catholic christening, or yeah, a christening, I can't say it pronounced,

01:23:57

I can't say it right. If I had known what I know now, yes, I would not have gone.

01:24:04

Right. But just because it's my conscience, and I would want to be able to tell people where that is wrong, and why it's wrong.

01:24:14

When we make a stand like that, we have the opportunity to witness to the true gospel.

01:24:26

If we just go, and comply, and make everything nice, and everything's equal, or whatever, we don't have that opportunity.

01:24:38

And that's just because I believe, coming from a background where theology didn't matter, to reform theology, and Calvinistic theology, and realizing theology really, really, really does matter, especially when it comes to the gospel.

01:24:55

You start to see that false teaching, like routine, or traditions of other religions, these are opportunities to actually talk about the gospel, and talk about how our religion, or our faith, is different.

01:25:18

It's just a doorway into that, into Christ. And I said on Apologetics Live, I used the example of a

01:25:24

Roman Catholic wedding, even. I attended a Roman Catholic wedding, but I sat in the very back, so that when they got up for the

01:25:32

Mass, I was not going to partake in that, you know. And so it was clear, as every person walked back, and saw my wife and I sitting back there, we were not participating in that.

01:25:45

But Brandon, go ahead. I do want to touch up on some, and I didn't follow the

01:25:50

Alistair Begg stuff a whole lot, because again, I'm in school, which is no excuse.

01:25:57

But anyway. Well, then you just gotta listen to Squirrel Chatter, and he'll get you all caught up. I'll have to do that.

01:26:03

But what I will say is, that is the problem with some of these big -name pastors, is they get caught up in their pride and fame, okay.

01:26:15

That is why I said we should pray for him, and whatever he did and said, that's between him and God now.

01:26:23

And we just gotta keep praying for him, and I'll leave that one alone. But to answer your question about the Catholic christening, now,

01:26:30

I am of the Reformed faith. I am Presbyterian. We dunk babies. I mean, we do baptize babies.

01:26:40

However, for us, it's a whole different meaning. Correct. And that's the reason, because it's not, like, so as a

01:26:47

Presbyterian, you'd see it as a sacrament. That's why I was really clear, was that the removal of sin, because that would not be a

01:26:53

Presbyterian view. So their view is definitely anathema to what the

01:27:01

Bible teaches. Absolutely, 100%. And, you know, for us, it's a covenant. It's a sacrament, but it's a covenant.

01:27:07

You're bringing that baby into the covenant. I'm not going to get into the theology behind it. If y 'all want to throw stones at me later, go right ahead.

01:27:15

But moving on from that, I've been to some Catholic weddings, and I'm like you,

01:27:20

Andrew. I will sit in the middle of the church and let people see me from both sides.

01:27:27

So when they're coming back, they're like, why are you not participating? Well, the first thing people say is, oh, he's Black, he's Baptist.

01:27:32

That's what everybody thinks, which I think is hilarious. But for me, and this goes back to Alistair Begg, I don't know if y 'all follow up with T .D.

01:27:43

Jakes and Gino Jennings and their feud they got going on right now with all these, you know,

01:27:49

T .D. Jakes did something he shouldn't have done. And Gino Jennings is a oneness Pentecostal attacking

01:27:55

T .D. Jakes. And it's a bunch of nonsense going on on both sides.

01:28:01

And I think with us, we have such a beautiful spot with Alistair Begg because he's not so far out on his theology to where we can't bring him back in.

01:28:13

You know, so yeah, I wouldn't attend a christening for a Catholic baby, and I probably will stop going to Catholic weddings.

01:28:23

I don't know. Well, I can do you guys one better.

01:28:32

I actually officiated a Catholic funeral. It was a high school student of mine, and the family asked me to do it.

01:28:41

And I did the memorial service knowingly, you know, someone from a Reformed tradition.

01:28:47

I did the memorial service. I did the eulogy. I proclaimed the gospel, and I left the room before the mass.

01:28:57

I wasn't going to participate in that. I didn't say anything about it. I didn't condemn it. That wasn't the place or time.

01:29:03

You know, we mourn with those who mourn, and we were more. But yeah, so yeah, I've actually done a

01:29:09

Roman Catholic funeral. But yeah, I would go to a christening.

01:29:16

I can celebrate a baby. There's no, you know, even with the problem with the baptism and the problem with the beliefs that they're having,

01:29:27

I wouldn't participate in it. But I could sit there because I can celebrate that baby, and I can pray that God will save that baby, and then pray that God will save the rest of them that are trapped in that darkness.

01:29:42

Because there's nothing sinful. We're not denying the truth.

01:29:48

Even though we're dealing with a, you know, a religion that is full of heresy, you know, that baby didn't choose that.

01:29:59

The only reason you're going to be brought to a christening is your family or friends with the parents.

01:30:07

And so that's a different thing entirely. Same with a Roman Catholic wedding or funeral.

01:30:14

You know, you can attend something like that because the event itself isn't sinful, whereas a wedding is a different thing entirely.

01:30:26

Yeah. I can agree with you on that one. Yeah. Spencer, you got your hand up.

01:30:33

Yeah. I'm trying to remember. I probably would go to a christening. I've never been asked to go to one.

01:30:41

Never been, I guess, a participant in a Catholic wedding or funeral. But I imagine, depending on the situation,

01:30:47

I would probably consider it. But did you ask about how we should respond?

01:30:54

Yeah, like how to respond, how Christians should respond to Halster? Because, you know, part of the thing I'm thinking,

01:31:00

Halster Begg is probably in a Christian bubble, right? I mean, how many unbelievers does he actually interact with?

01:31:10

I mean, yeah, okay, you go pump your gas. Yeah. You know, you're gonna maybe...

01:31:17

Okay, you guys outside of Jersey don't know what it's like because people actually pump your own gas.

01:31:22

You guys all pump your gas. But yeah, Melissa's the Jersey girl going with her hands like this because Jersey girls don't pump gas.

01:31:29

And that's actually, by the way, that's the reason Jersey still doesn't allow pumping gas, is it came down to one vote, and the guy literally voted and said, my wife's a

01:31:38

Jersey girl, and Jersey girls don't pump gas. I don't want to be in the doghouse. And he voted no against it.

01:31:46

You know, he voted no, which people would be upset with, but everyone laughed at the way he did it. But in a

01:31:51

Christian bubble, I really do question how much does Halster actually know about what's being said online, right?

01:32:01

Is he really responding to what he's... Like, everyone's giving him a really hard time with that sermon, and doubling down or tripling down.

01:32:08

Well, he didn't actually double down because it was someone on his staff, I guess, that talked to AFR Radio, not

01:32:14

Halster. Did he double or triple down on the sermon? Well, again, I don't know how much he's on social media.

01:32:22

He may be responding to what people have brought to him from social media. And if they're working with him, they may not word it as...

01:32:33

You know, they may give the most extreme things. And he's like, oh, look at these, as the word he used, Pharisees, right?

01:32:41

We don't know... Or let me rephrase that. I don't know what his thinking is.

01:32:47

I don't know what he's responding to. I don't know what he knows. You know, I'm assuming he's kind of, you know, especially when we get older, we're not as active.

01:32:57

So I'm kind of figuring he's probably kind of put away most of the time just in his study.

01:33:04

And, you know, and Squirrel, you're bringing up the point that he spoke to John Mack, correct? And I don't know what came out of that, you know, because Johnny Mack is not on social media, okay?

01:33:17

So, you know, again, Johnny Mack is being told, is being brought it from folks that work with him, right?

01:33:25

And so, you know, it's a thing where I guess my view is

01:33:33

I'm not, I'm definitely not of the opinion, cancel him. I think it was, you know, this...

01:33:40

I don't believe that he sinned. You guys may disagree with that, but I don't believe

01:33:45

Alistair Begg sinned in giving advice. It's not good advice. It's not advice I would give, but yet people are treating him, some as if he's not saved, some as if he needs to be disciplined out of the

01:33:59

Church. And I believe I heard that he said that some of the elders,

01:34:04

I think, don't all agree with him on his position. So it's really a local Church issue, in my mind, that has to be addressed first, and let's see what that outcome is before...

01:34:16

I mean, this is my position. I want to see what the local Church elders are going to do first before I come out and make strong stances on whether he should attend things or not.

01:34:30

Does that clarify, Spencer? Yeah, that's, you know, I was going to say it's unfortunate where we are right now with Alistair, because that was my thought.

01:34:40

This should have been sort of a Church -disciplined, you know, a closed -door sort of discussion with Alistair, because he is so big, and he is, you know, world -famous in the sense of the

01:34:50

Christian world. Let me cut off to say this, just what

01:34:56

Sonia said. This is much better than what we saw with Charles Stanley, right?

01:35:01

Charles Stanley, who got divorced, he publicly said in a letter, hey, I said to the board,

01:35:09

I need to step down. They were like, oh no, the ministry couldn't survive without you, right? At least here, he's saying, hey, some of the board disagrees with me, and we're going to discuss it, right?

01:35:18

Well, is that the same board that got into a fistfight before they elected of his pastor? Not the best board on the planet, in my opinion, but it's unfortunate that it got out the way that it did.

01:35:29

It would have been nice, and I think maybe the outcome would have been different if it would have just been his eldership that talked to him, maybe a phone call from John MacArthur, things might have been settled.

01:35:40

But I do think, you know, we're here now. It is known to everybody, and it has become a big issue.

01:35:47

So I don't think that we should just sort of walk away from it and pretend like, well, you know, he didn't, you know, he's not repenting, but the rest of his teaching's fine.

01:35:56

So, or, you know, whether you want to say he should repent or not, he's not acknowledging, you know, what everyone seems to be acknowledging, that the advice was bad.

01:36:06

So we are here, and I don't think we should relent in asking him to walk that back or give some more clarification, because he didn't really give clarification in his sermon, at least not adequate clarification.

01:36:18

And it does cause me, you know, to be more concerned about what I might hear from him in the future, because, you know, what

01:36:26

I'd always known is he understood, you know, doctrines of grace. I would assume that he had a pretty solid understanding of God's sovereign hand in election, but somehow to come to the conclusion that, well, no, you have to go and sin in order to reach these sinners for salvation.

01:36:41

Well, what else does that uncover about what he may actually believe and teach to where it's not just a, like,

01:36:48

I think it was Gene said, just a straight up recommend wholeheartedly, you know, go listen to your ears bleed.

01:36:55

Now you're like, probably recommend? Let me know what you plan on listening to first, and then

01:37:01

I'll let you know. So I think we're right to be hard on him, because he should be an example for us to follow.

01:37:09

And I don't think he's setting a positive example for, and then not to mention just the church that he's pastoring.

01:37:17

If you hear him in that sermon, some of the things he says that I think are pretty outlandish, the loud applauses and, you know, hoots and hollers that come from the congregation, you're like,

01:37:29

I feel like they should be more discerning, or is that just pastoral idolatry at that point?

01:37:34

Well, maybe not idolatry, but I mean, look, you're going to want to support your pastor, aren't you? Especially if he's coming under attack.

01:37:41

And so some of that applause may be encouragement to their pastor, right?

01:37:47

Because the reality is the people that are super critical already left that in the first week. But, you know, and I don't know, it was either your podcast or Squirrel Chatter or Voice of Reason Radio, one of those that I was listening to from the

01:38:08

Christian podcast community, you know, was talking about that very thing, though, and, you know, pointing out that some of this, yes, some of this is local church, but some of this is also, look at the way the world is looking at it.

01:38:22

You had Matthew Vines, a prominent practicing homosexual who claims to be a pastor, and he's coming to the defense of Alistair, right?

01:38:37

And so you look at it and go, well, that should be kind of concerning if a bunch of solid believers are saying, hey, you know, you shouldn't be giving this advice, and then you got

01:38:48

Matthew Vines going, hey, let's support this guy. But does

01:38:53

Alistair know that? That's the question. Yeah, I doubt it. So let me ask you this, Spencer, and I'm curious.

01:39:00

May I have two parts? One, do you think Alistair was in sin, right?

01:39:05

And the reason I'm going to ask that is because the second question is, does he need to repent? Because everyone's asking for his repentance, but was it a sin, right?

01:39:15

Because sin would need repentance, but if it's not a sin, does it need repentance?

01:39:22

And I'm asking this as generally curious of each of you guys as well, so I'll ask Spencer, and then

01:39:28

I got to go to Rebecca because she has her hand up, and then you guys can all answer that. The initial advice was not sin.

01:39:33

I think it was bad advice, but I don't think it was sin. I would say if he is in sin, it's everything that's happened since then, which again, to me seems like a pride issue.

01:39:43

And then not to mention in the sermon, sort of lumping all of us American evangelical fundamentalists, as he called us, sort of into that pharisaical bucket, just to sort of not have to listen to us.

01:39:54

Because if you say someone's a Pharisee, you can just write them off, right? I don't have to listen to Pharisees, which is where he lumped in all of his detractors.

01:40:01

So I would say if he's in sin, which might have a good argument there that the pride, and then sort of,

01:40:08

I guess, speaking ill of your brothers and sisters in the faith who disagree with you,

01:40:15

I would say that's where he's in sin, and he would need to repent for that. But not necessarily the advice. I think that was just bad advice.

01:40:22

Yeah. And Gene pointed out that it was a different podcast transcription podcast community.

01:40:28

They've just heard so many of the podcasts as we're covering it, but it was actually Justin Peters, he said, that had

01:40:34

Dan Phillips on, and they addressed it on a Didache podcast. So yeah. Sorry, there was just so many.

01:40:42

Okay, folks, just to understand, I listen to everything on the Christian Podcast Community. I listen to the feed, the

01:40:47

Christian Podcast Community feed. We produce about 40 hours of content a week, and I listen to all of it.

01:40:55

I listen at triple speed for those who want to know how I do that, so I concentrate better. But I do get confused when

01:41:02

I'm hearing different people covering the topics. So, sorry, Justin, don't beat me up with your crutches.

01:41:12

Okay, for folks who are not, who can't see, I think I just almost made…

01:41:18

Brandon was trying to take a drink, and you did that. Okay, Brandon, you are going to…

01:41:24

Are you okay, buddy? Did I pat you on the back or something here? You almost spit out a soda there. Brandon, here's my encouragement to you.

01:41:32

Go to this website, you know, and you should do it now so we can see the reaction. Go to justiniwin .com.

01:41:43

Scrolls, is clapping, and you're going to need to look at the pictures.

01:41:49

There's going to be one picture. You're going to see me. That was round one. You got to scroll to see round two.

01:41:56

Okay, and then you'll understand why I said he's beating me up with a crutch. But you'll have to watch the video.

01:42:02

But he just, I see he's there because I can always tell when someone gets that page, the smile that comes on their face.

01:42:07

And you're going to have to later watch the video that gives the history of it. And when you watch that video, just know, Justin did not know we created this website at this point, but we needed a video to explain the website.

01:42:20

And so, folks, go check that out. Enjoy. Watch the video there.

01:42:26

It's classic, the look on his face when he realizes what we did and why we did it. And by the way, with his pastor's approval, it's classic.

01:42:36

All right, so let me go to Rebecca, who has been patiently waiting with her hand up. Not physically, she just...

01:42:43

You're right. No, the question on the question of mark and avoid, I feel it's way too premature to do anything like that.

01:42:52

You better have one heck of a reason or complaint against him doctrinally to do that.

01:43:00

I mean, I do feel that there should be a yellow light there, proceed with caution. At this point, again, for now,

01:43:09

I'm just thinking it's a terrible piece of advice. And maybe as time goes by, maybe he'll think differently.

01:43:16

But on attending a Catholic christening, so 38 years ago,

01:43:23

I was married in the Catholic church. I am married to a Roman Catholic. Would I have done things differently as far as where I got married now?

01:43:31

Yes. But I also have four children who were christened

01:43:37

Catholic church. I and my husband knew where I stood, that it does not take away their sins.

01:43:45

It does not make them a child of God. Basically that I felt it was a waste of time, that it was not biblical to baptize children.

01:43:54

But again, I'm married to a Roman Catholic and a couple of my grandchildren have also been been christened.

01:44:02

And I tried to discourage my daughter from doing so, reminding her again of what the

01:44:09

Bible says about baptism and that there is no infant baptisms.

01:44:16

So yeah, I, whether or not I would go to someone else's, again, not without letting them know where I stood, but I've only had to go to my family's a couple of grandchildren and they know where I stand on that.

01:44:33

So actually the last one, I got lucky. I had COVID. I didn't have to go.

01:44:40

But yeah, I have attended. There was good things that came out of COVID. Yeah, right.

01:44:47

So real quick, Rebecca, so if I invited you to my child's baptism as a

01:44:52

Presbyterian, would you come? I, look, I spent many years in the Presbyterian church.

01:44:57

I witnessed child baptisms. But wait, you went for better theology?

01:45:03

Is that what you're saying? And they always made it clear that it was not the same belief as the

01:45:08

Catholic church before they did it. I mean, I still, personally, I still felt, well, whatever, you know, but, but yeah, everyone knew that this had nothing to do with, you know, wasn't bringing them salvation or forgiveness of sins or anything like that.

01:45:24

So yeah, I would go. So Brennan, you could appreciate this. I spoke at a Presbyterian church and they had someone that was a first -time visitor.

01:45:34

He comes up to me because I'm the person he saw at the pulpit. And this is what he says.

01:45:39

He said, and the pastor of the church is right next to me. And he says, hey, it's my first time here.

01:45:48

What would, I grew up Baptist, what would this church believe, you know, different than me on, say, baptism?

01:45:56

And the pastor just gave me this look like, okay, what's he going to say? So I just said, okay, well, I'm a

01:46:01

Baptist, but, so I made clear, you know, I have a different view. I explained Presbyterian baptism.

01:46:07

So we go to lunch and the pastor just sits down with me. He says, Andrew, I gotta tell you, I wish people in my church understood

01:46:14

Presbyterian baptism as well as you just explained it to someone. Well, I'm dating a girl, and her stepfather's a

01:46:24

Church of God in Christ pastor. And we got into the debate on infant baptism and on New Year's Eve.

01:46:30

And I did not want to even have this debate. It's New Year's Eve for goodness sake. And I explained to him that, you know, we will gladly do believers baptism.

01:46:43

That's the differences between it. Like if, if I'm a pastor and a person that's an adult comes up to me and says, look,

01:46:50

I grew up in a Baptist tradition, you know, I understand the Reformed faith and everything, but I just want to be submerged.

01:46:56

You know what I'm going to tell him? Get me, give me some floaties, find me a pool, we're going to baptize you.

01:47:03

You know, I'm not going to get caught up in the mode. I've seen that in Presbyterian church. I've seen Presbyterian church that did a full immersion.

01:47:11

You know, by the way, my trick question, and you could use this, my trick question for Baptists is always, do

01:47:18

Presbyterians believe in a believer's baptism? And they always say, they almost always say no.

01:47:25

And I say, so what do they do with the adults that get saved? If you'll just sit there, go, oh, wait.

01:47:32

Yeah. Well, I know how you can resolve this. You know, I kind of take a

01:47:37

Lutheran view. I knew it. If you look at it as God's work, then he could be working on the baby and save that baby later.

01:47:47

And he can also do the work in the bed in the believer. So I can attend both.

01:47:57

You got the mic, so go forward. Yeah. I did want to go back to this, asking about whether Alistair Begg sinned.

01:48:07

And I've been kind of thinking about this, like, okay, well, maybe there's some sin in his advice.

01:48:13

Maybe there's a bit of coveting. He mentioned that it was, that he wanted a grandfather heart.

01:48:19

He wants to love. So maybe he's putting his or her, the grandmother's relationship and love higher than the gospel, higher than God's law, desiring the relationship more than what we are called to.

01:48:37

And maybe there's a bit of taking the Lord's name in vain, misrepresenting what

01:48:43

God has designed marriage to be. So I'm just wrestling with that.

01:48:49

I would have to think about that more. But those are kind of some thoughts that come to mind that maybe

01:48:55

Alistair Begg is trying to look at it through a law lens. Again, like, if he thinks of it as a liberty issue, he's not going to think of it as a necessarily sinful issue.

01:49:06

So these are just, I think, some other things that come underneath that are at the foundation of when we get advice, how we issue it, and how it might affect what sin really is.

01:49:21

The more we know what sin is and how much it affects us, I think the more we will give better advice.

01:49:29

Not that Alistair Begg doesn't know that. But Alistair said, you know, he repents every day, right? And so the thing for me,

01:49:37

I mean, I guess the reason I asked that question is this. I saw so much of a calling of repentance to Alistair, and it got me to wonder, but what's the sin?

01:49:50

I don't know anybody that's saying the advice was good. I don't know anybody.

01:49:57

There may be some. I mean, I've heard that there's people that are... because I had someone that said to me, I can't believe all these people are supporting

01:50:03

Alistair. And it could be that he lives in Ohio and knows people personally that go to that church, because they're friends with people that go to that church.

01:50:13

It could be. But, you know, like, I don't know anyone that's saying this is good advice.

01:50:20

But if there's not a sin issue, I go, what's he got to repent of? And that's where I'm wondering, like, are they saying it's a sin?

01:50:29

Is it a sin to give bad advice? Because if that's the case, every pastor, I forget who said this, someone said, every pastor is going to be guilty.

01:50:37

So if it's not a sin, then is it Christian liberty? Well, if it's Christian liberty, you know, right?

01:50:45

So that's where I'm kind of wondering. I just mark it up as bad advice that I don't think he should have given.

01:50:53

And it's a local church issue that I think they should deal with. And out of that, maybe after that,

01:51:00

I might be willing to come out and say, okay, this is, you know, a position. But I want to see what those who are local to him know him, know the situation, because we don't.

01:51:13

I want to see what they're going to say first. So I was against, and this will get me in trouble with some,

01:51:19

I'm sure, I was against him, if they asked him to, if they removed him from Shepherds Conference.

01:51:27

Like, I don't know how that went from, I guess, Phil Johnson said it was mutual, and I can see that. I could see him come in and say, hey, this will be a distraction.

01:51:34

He goes, I don't want to be a distraction, and steps out. I could see that. I don't know if American Family Radio should have just shut him off.

01:51:44

I think that we should give him more time with this and see. Even after that sermon, I still say

01:51:51

I want to see how the local church is going to handle it first. That's my view. Real quick,

01:51:56

Andrew, I'm with you 100%. Number one, the media will twist any and everything they can to fit their agenda.

01:52:04

The second thing is, I love Alistair to death. He's old. I don't think he uses a computer as much as we do.

01:52:10

He doesn't use social media as much as we do. You know, he probably still writes his sermons on stones as well.

01:52:18

There's a lot of things that I believe Alistair doesn't know and doesn't do. He's reacting to all the negative he's hearing.

01:52:27

He's not hearing the good stuff that's coming out of this. I think he's hearing all the negative that's coming out of this.

01:52:34

I'm not ready to just cut him off. I just want to listen to him some more, see where this goes, because just like everything else in the media, this will go away.

01:52:45

Yeah, I said this. I think he would have done better following the advice of the way

01:52:52

John MacArthur kind of handles things and just ignored it, because if he didn't do that second sermon, or if he didn't do that sermon,

01:52:58

I should say, it probably wouldn't have... I think a lot more people are responding to that sermon than they are to the initial thing.

01:53:09

I think there are people that are just that confirmed for them. So, I think you're right,

01:53:14

Brandon. If he would have just kept his mouth quiet, it wouldn't have been as bad for him, you know.

01:53:21

And American Family Radio lost me too. So, I'm not in the business of canceling people right off the bat unless it's something 100 % heretic, like, you know.

01:53:35

But anyway. If he'd officiated a gay wedding, that would have been clear.

01:53:41

The cancellation would have been there. But this advice, bad as it is, no. And as you were saying,

01:53:48

Andrew, I'm more upset by the message in defense of the advice and the response to the criticism than I am to the advice.

01:53:59

But Brandon raises up a good point. How much of what he knows about what has been said has been filtered through staff and not directly seen by him?

01:54:10

I'm sure most of it, if not all of it. Didn't he make a comment saying that he was...

01:54:19

Actually, they were filtering stuff for him, they were keeping him from seeing and hearing a lot of the negative stuff.

01:54:24

Yes. Yeah, I thought I heard that. Yeah. But how much of that is truthful?

01:54:31

Look, I used to work for a sheriff's office and part of my job was dealing with the media and dealing with press releases and whatnot.

01:54:39

And I shouldn't be saying this online. There's a lot of stuff that we keep from the public, if you will, for the sanctity and the safety of the case.

01:54:47

And Andrew brought up a good point. How many of his congregational members are protecting him?

01:54:56

Again, this is something that all of us need to pray about and just kind of see where God leads it.

01:55:04

Again, I'm not ready to just chop a dude's head off and say, be done with you, go to sleep or whatever.

01:55:11

I learned a lot from this guy and I or whatnot. But God used him in very unique ways in a lot of people's lives.

01:55:20

And again, what is his relationship with this elderly woman? Is she sick?

01:55:25

Is she afraid that she's not going to see her grandson or whatever he identifies as?

01:55:32

We don't know the totality of the circumstances behind his original comment, even though it was bad.

01:55:39

And we also don't know the truth behind what he's being told by his elders and other people filtering through this stuff.

01:55:46

So there's a lot. There's a lot. And I know that me saying both sides are wrong. I exposed myself to being canceled from the program.

01:55:54

I'm sure some people can be like, well, I'm not going to listen to you. I'm saying his advice was wrong, but I'm just also saying that some of the reaction to him was also wrong.

01:56:03

Yeah. Which is really coming from the American fundamentalist.

01:56:10

Like we're talking about. Not our fundamentalism. The other fundamentalists, you know, you will find most of them are just quick like that to condemn him.

01:56:24

And that's probably what he's getting. I'm seeing a lot of this out of the reform camp. Right. But I'm wondering if he's not hearing the middle.

01:56:32

Because that sermon was revealing that he went to both extremes, right?

01:56:38

He said he was receiving stuff or he mentioned the fundamentalist.

01:56:43

And I think he's putting the legalist fundamentalism in the camp there. And he's only revealed and he revealed at the end that he's only getting emails that his elders are allowing him to read or encouraging.

01:56:56

So he's not getting this. You're right, I think. And if you put it together, that he's also probably not online and all of his brothers are calling him to to look and think about it more or saying it's bad advice.

01:57:14

That's probably what he's missing. And you know, you may have he may have elders and staff who are like me that are saying, well, you know, your advice was bad, but this reaction was also bad.

01:57:26

Yeah. Okay. So that's why I my position is it's a local church issue, right?

01:57:34

I mean, I'm at least being consistent when it came to, you know, MacArthur. I forget who brought up MacArthur's church with that.

01:57:42

You did, Melissa. Okay. With the counseling situation. I said the same thing. Like, this is a local church issue, first and foremost.

01:57:51

There's a lot we could look at. There's, I mean, there's things you can see, but it's like, this is something not,

01:57:58

I mean, I think that social media has a lot of good, but it does have a lot of bad. And one of the things

01:58:05

I see that's bad is that we think we have, we are the church online. And if we don't like what you said,

01:58:13

Matthew 18, I mean, I've had, I've had a pastor. This is really bad.

01:58:19

I'm not going to say who, very well -known pastor. I had a pastor who, because I disagreed with him on a theological position, wanted to call my pastor under Matthew 18.

01:58:33

And I'm like, you go for it. I said, here's his number. And then I took all of our correspondents.

01:58:39

I gave it to my pastor. And he's like, what in the world, like, why is this guy want to call me? I said, because he thinks

01:58:45

I'm in sin. You know, he's like, my pastor was like, why would anyone want to debate you?

01:58:51

And like, do they think they have a chance? He was like, I'm not going to say anything to him. But I said, well, here's all the information.

01:58:57

But that is the way the internet is. People think that this is church discipline in an internet age.

01:59:10

I learned that somebody put pineapple on a pizza. That is a Matthew 18. That is a beautiful thing, my brother.

01:59:18

You just have not... It is wonderful. I love sushi.

01:59:25

Gene, I liked you for a minute, man. I gotta tell you, at the end of John's gospel,

01:59:32

Jesus cooked the fish. Now, y 'all remember the issue with Matt Chandler?

01:59:39

Yeah. Well, which one? Oh, he's had more? One or two, yeah.

01:59:47

Oh, goodness. I am way out of the loop on Matt Chandler. No, so the first one where he and his wife and his wife's friend and husband were in an appropriate chat together.

02:00:01

Yeah, the texting one. I thought the way... And the media took it and ran with it.

02:00:07

But I think the church did a phenomenal job at how to handle that. Now, y 'all can maybe look up some more

02:00:14

Matt Chandler stuff. And I got homework to do. It would only make you mad. It's all the woke.

02:00:20

Well, we're... Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, he's woke. Yeah, yeah. I get it. We're at the two -hour mark.

02:00:26

Let me just open up if there's anyone that has any last things that they want to say that maybe we didn't capture or felt we needed to address.

02:00:34

Well, I was just thinking that I think it's so concerning for people. I think it caught a lot people off guard because he is highly respected.

02:00:44

And I think the big concern is probably that his poor advice could be a potential stumbling block for Christians and even some pastors that follow and listen to him because sometimes people blindly do so.

02:01:01

You know what I mean? Good point. And might not use their discernment just because it came from Alistair Begg.

02:01:07

Yeah. You know... And I might add that we need to probably as a whole be careful about, because one of the things that is included in this is pastoral advice to just anybody, the radio talking and all that kind of stuff.

02:01:24

And I mean, it's providing a need. I think there's a need because they're probably not getting good theology, good pastoral advice in the bigger, broader

02:01:36

American evangelical sphere. And so they're looking for men who stand for the truth, like Stephen...

02:01:44

What's his name? Give me a man who stands for the truth. Stephen Lawson. Yeah. So they're looking for that, but the advice and stuff like that has to go back to their pastor.

02:02:01

They need to be looking for local truth, and we need to have more local pastors who are standing for the truth.

02:02:08

You know, I'll say this. I've been surprised on Apologetics Live, having dealt with this issue for two weeks.

02:02:14

The amount of email, the response I got of people thanking me for what they called a balanced approach leads me to believe that that's not what people are seeing.

02:02:25

You know, I think that there's some who are afraid to have caution with this for the fear of them being canceled, and say, like, look,

02:02:35

I'm being really clear that I don't agree with Alistair's advice, but I'm also being really clear that I think that people are jumping on a bandwagon.

02:02:44

And, you know, I don't know... Again, I don't know which one of the podcasts brought this up. I actually...

02:02:51

I want to... I forget. I forget which one, but Gene's going to let me know after. But, you know,

02:02:59

I heard something really interesting on one of the podcasts is keep in mind that many people who are responding to this are trying to build a platform so they know this is something that is...

02:03:09

it's a hot -button issue. That's why everyone's talking about it on their podcasts and YouTubes.

02:03:14

There's tons of YouTube videos. Go search Alistair Begg. This is, like, the only thing you're going to find for a while. My friend did one.

02:03:21

Yeah, and people are monetizing that. And so you're getting...

02:03:27

you know, they know it's not... if they say Alistair was great, they're not going to get the clicks and the downloads and the money.

02:03:34

But if they come out hard, people want to... there's people who are listening to that.

02:03:40

And so that has to be taken into account, too. You know, and I'll just say, if there's a

02:03:45

Christian who's doing that just for those reasons, that's a sin in my mind. If you're purposely...

02:03:52

it's clickbait, which is a lie. You know, if you're sitting there and you're going to say, oh, yeah, and you know your motivation is for attention to yourself or for money for self, and you're purposely willing to tear down a believer,

02:04:04

I'm sorry. That actually is a sin, and you should repent. That's actually something you should repent for. But I just think that we need to be cautious, and that's been kind of my message with each one of the times

02:04:16

I've talked about it. And I don't know, it'll probably come up again in Apologetics Live, because anyone comes and asks anything. So people have questions.

02:04:24

But I think this was good. I think it was good, healthy discussion. I think we got a lot of different views out. I wanted to make one comment, because I've just been listening through all of this, because I'm not familiar with Pastor Baggett.

02:04:39

He's not somebody I followed, and I was completely blindsided about this issue when

02:04:44

Andrew brought it up in our staff meeting, so I had no clue any of this was going on. So I've just been listening to everybody discuss it, because it's something that I actually don't have an opinion on, because number one,

02:04:57

I've never followed him, and I don't hold him—we've done a theology throwdown in the past on celebrity pastors and how we're supposed to handle that, and I think this may come under that to some extent.

02:05:09

It's like, we tend to put people up on pedestals, and especially in our virtual world today,

02:05:16

I think we do a lot of, what is it, ruling from the couch instead of the court bench.

02:05:24

It's like, you know, we're not judge and jury over these people, and whenever you take the information that you're publicly, and you make final judgments regarding that information, a lot of times we make the wrong kind of decisions, because we don't have all of the facts.

02:05:46

And so I think Andrew's position is one of grace, and I think that that should be the instinct of all

02:05:53

Christians, first and foremost, until we're proven wrong, to give especially fellow brothers and sisters grace, and as I think other people have said here, to pray for our brothers and sisters who are under attack, in whatever form that attack is, whether it's the kind of attack that Alistair Begg is currently facing from the internet, or if it's the kind of attack where it's internally in our

02:06:19

Church, where we have people who are pressuring our pastors especially to compromise, and we have, they're men, they're just like every one of us, they have faults and failings, and the temptations, and they need the power of the

02:06:36

Holy Spirit and the support of other Christians to stand against those temptations and to be strong, and so I don't have a position regarding him, because I haven't followed him, but I just think that Christians should have the first instinct is to take all of the information we're getting on the internet with a grain of salt, unless we are involved in the matter, and I mean, it would be any court case.

02:07:03

I mean, we're not judge and jury. God is, and the Holy Spirit is, and His local

02:07:08

Church is, and that's, I guess, my position on it. Well, I think it's a good position.

02:07:15

So with that, folks, we appreciate you guys tuning in. If you guys enjoyed this, share this with others.

02:07:22

You can, you know, we do this monthly. We choose a different topic each month where we discuss our differences, as we say, with love and charity, and I hope that we've done that here tonight, and we look forward to seeing,

02:07:35

I don't know what our topic will be next month, but I'm sure it'll be lively, maybe not as lively as this one, but we'll see.

02:07:42

This is a ministry of striving for eternity.