Open Discussion with Matt Slick, 3/20/2024

CARM

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March 20, 2024

00:00: Getting this thing going. Hopefully you guys can hear you check this out here Let's see.
00:05: What's it? What are they? There we go.
00:36: That should be working. Why isn't it working? Nothing's working There we go. Wow, that was unexpected any rates, so I finally got this thing working and Wednesday night when
00:49: I'm kind of hoping that might happen is As I work the rest of this a little bit of a late start
00:55: I had a problem getting something going here for this thing and took me five or ten minutes longer than my thought
01:00: So that's why I'm a little bit late getting started so What what this is
01:07: I hope will be Maybe I don't know. We'll see if it's gonna be
01:14: You can hear me good. I Have to get the calendar thing going so I got to work on that as well and get it up in a couple places
01:23: He posted on Clubhouse Let me work on one thing at a time Like I was telling people I got stuck trying to fix something for this and it just took a long time
01:32: Something wasn't working, right? I just Scrap it and go someplace else and and create something. So now what
01:37: I'm doing is going into the Calendar right now. I'm gonna put the information in for the calendar
01:45: And then I'll get the other stuff going. So if you guys want to come in here You can
01:53: The That's the stream yard link. So this is what
01:58: I'm gonna do. Let's see This happens with Let's see.
02:06: Um I'm hoping some anti Calvinists come in Because so there's been a lot of people who have just been snotting on it lately and causing
02:16: I think causing problems And so Hey Charlie, how you doing, man?
02:23: Hey doing well, okay Am I very late no, no,
02:31: I was late getting started so I Had a little bit of a tech thing.
02:36: I had to get going And I had a file that wouldn't work right and to get it anyway here
02:45: I am okay, we'll see a Train What's that? I? Said we'll see how many people join and have a good time.
02:53: We'll see. All righty. That's true okay, so there you go and You watch go to Jenna have this stuff done well before but That's all right.
03:06: Things don't always work out like a plan. That's for sure And we'll see if anybody
03:14: There we go. We'll see if anybody Joints. All right. There's let's say
03:20: Salinas. Welcome. How are you doing? Alright, good afternoon being ourself.
03:28: I Could understand you. Sorry Sorry, can you hear me now? Yes. Yes, I do.
03:34: I'm doing great. How about yourself? Oh Hanging in there just you know, whatever in right now at the moment.
03:40: Hey, man, I said a quick question Sure I'm sure you've seen the interview with the
03:48: American Gospel I think it was the interview according to the concerning the gift of the spirit, right?
03:54: I think it was Justin Peters and I forgot the other guy's name No, I haven't Do you see it?
04:01: No, because it'll probably make me mad Okay But anyway, there are some things that I was
04:10: Interesting But I like I like, you know that the fact that there are both respectful both both sides are being respectful to each other and They were able to call themselves brothers, you know, regardless regardless of their of their position or their position in terms of the gift
04:28: Of the spirit or not, you know what they believe But I do
04:33: I do have a question did you Did you know about these the anti -semitism of Martin Luther?
04:40: What are your thoughts on that? Yeah, he made some mistakes. That's for sure. He blamed the
04:46: Jews for a lot of stuff. Yeah, he blew it. Yeah but would you consider him as a
04:52: How do I say it? I Guess what I'm trying to go at it's good.
04:58: Justin Peter was saying that you know that Sid Roth I'm sure you you you heard sir Roth before Sid Roth Sid Roth, okay.
05:09: Yeah So, you know how he you know, he brings up guests and whatnot and they have some crazy
05:16: Visions or you know, you just don't know if they're all true or not. But anyways, Justin Peters made the claim that you know that That for him said
05:26: Roth is not a brother in Christ. He's a charlatan Etc, etc, etc. So then
05:31: Michael Brown came back and say well, what do you think about? the What about Martin Luther, you know, he said he had seen or Martin Luther also said that he has
05:41: Seen some dreams of God or visions of God that you know, he commanded do things that were not right
05:47: And I'm guessing the anti -semitism stuff. So anyway, so it's a double standard, right?
05:53: So, you know, would you call him a false prophet or false teacher? so that's where Justin Peters kind of you know, kind of back, you know, he kind of just Can I see where he was a
06:03: They didn't want to come on Luther a false teacher, which I understand right? But I think that if we're gonna call somebody a false teacher like, you know this case said
06:13: Roth then We met you know, we have to measure the same way How are you gonna mention you a person?
06:22: well, so Without knowing some details because I think a lot of times
06:28: Details are really important when discussing something like this. So and so said this or said that and That's what
06:35: I'm curious about is to know What might have been said in the context?
06:41: So I know that Luther was an anti -semite. It doesn't make him a non -christian Okay By the way,
06:48: Matt is it is covered. What is this car sir? I just jumped in the stream yard Are you are you going over some studies or nope?
06:56: Just open discussion to see what happens. That's it I was hoping some anti -calvinists would come in here because that's kind of what generated it is
07:06: I've noticed I think because of Layton flowers and some others that they're becoming rabid anti -calvinists and I don't want you know, they don't have to be
07:15: Calvinist, but the idea of causing division in the body of Christ That's what's concerning me and it really is and so I wanted to see if I could
07:24: Just deal with some questions But I'm gonna test this headset thing here really fast really so that you guys can
07:30: If you say something to me go ahead and say something so I can hear it in here Yeah, you can hear me now.
07:36: Okay. Yes How about the regular you got that?
07:44: I guess you don't have me, huh? Well, we don't have you now.
07:50: I can see Charlie and Matt, but I just can't hear Matt. Yeah, Matt went Milk I hear you good, but not mad.
08:07: I think he's on mute. That's what it is. Not sure There we go.
08:13: It's supposed to be working Try this. Yeah. Okay. Now I'm on the instant instant.
08:20: What the camera But this is supposed to work because I can hear you
08:25: So I was a little curious because it's a new microphone I'm trying to get something that's gonna be better because when I've got his old so I'm just gonna
08:32: Work on it a little bit. That's all But let's see what happens here headphones and Yeah, it's supposed to be working
08:42: Okay, let's see if I can send this out in the higher def of the camera and let me try this one more time with with this
08:59: Looks like you're muted again Matt. Yeah, it muted you. Yeah, you're still muted here
09:24: Okay, just we have the troubleshoot later, okay, you got a rumble like It should be just going on rumble.
09:33: Oh, okay. I'll go look I think the normal way
09:40: Yeah, I've only got the link for the live radio show Well, look
09:46: I said, I'm new at this Or trying this thing right here to see and it's not really giving me well
09:52: I'm still practicing. So it might be a few glitches here. Let me get you back on the speaker
09:59: There we go. All right, so Rumble link. Let me see if it comes up.
10:04: I don't think it's going to the link I've got Yeah, it has to be a different one
10:12: Yeah, I get a message. It says please wait for your video to finish processing
10:18: Well, it says or not on rumble Yeah well so That's what happened.
10:29: We try and do everything yourself. Anyway, I don't think people gonna show up today I don't know what's going on people who wanted to have a search discussion on something
10:36: I don't think it's gonna happen, but that's okay. We'll see. All right It doesn't it doesn't
10:42: I got plenty to do that's that's for sure. Oh Man, look at this.
10:47: I did this And I can't figure out where my channels are that I sent it to in rumble
10:54: I'm looking at in rumble right now Really? Yeah says my
11:01: Channels and nothing's working. Yeah But it says
11:07: I'm live on rumble. Yeah, I know it says here too but then when I get there, it's a big red banner across the bottom of the the
11:16: Video box says, please wait till your video finishes processing says it's now at 50 %
11:23: Was 49 a minute ago, but hey someone in the in the
11:28: Chat from YouTube John 14 6 looks like he had lunch with the one that's
11:35: Pentecostals today I'm not saying because I don't speak in tongues and I'm also not saved as I was baptized in with Jesus What Well, that's typical of those guys
11:49: It's confusing. Okay, the tongues thing we can address but it says I'm also not saved because I wasn't oh that wasn't okay
11:57: I'm okay. Gotcha. Yeah, it's just they're a cult. Yeah, they're a cult. So yeah
12:03: Mm -hmm. Okay All right
12:14: Yeah, I cannot figure out where the content is or these I sent it
12:21: I'm looking it's alright my channels and Haven't creating channels yet.
12:33: It doesn't make any sense. Yeah. Well this processing message. I'm getting it's up to 51 %
12:40: So maybe it's processing your earlier show from from night. I have no idea.
12:47: Yeah It did well, I'll see people to join we'll see yeah library
12:53: Yeah, mass look live 320. It's just showing that and Okay, I don't know
13:02: I don't know why or what so Well, you know better than and ask me if I know what's going on Anytime it sounds like I know what
13:12: I'm talking about. That's a mistake Well, I thought
13:20: I had it figured out. That's They got too much in my plate, I guess good Duke do everything.
13:27: Oh, well, it's what it is We'll see if anybody comes in. I Put it up on the forums forums calm org a calm forums to see if any
13:36: I put it in yesterday I put it I talked today. I think was today also put the links in we got it going on Facebook We've got it going on YouTube and so the links are there.
13:49: It's also in the calendar on karma to put all that stuff up I'm late. Like I said because I had a problem with getting something to work, right?
13:57: But here we are. So I'm thinking that the open theists
14:04: They're not gonna be able to come in and and and hold a cogent discussion Like with that Warren McGrew last night, you know,
14:12: I just asked him a simple question. He couldn't answer it What I've noticed I've noticed is that a lot of times
14:21: They I don't know if it's arrogance pride stubbornness. I don't know what it is But you ask a question and you say
14:27: I'll say look I didn't see it. Could you just please restate it? I wrote it already. It's over here.
14:32: It's over there and they'll never just just show it. Well, why not? They get angry well,
14:38: I don't understand why they get so angry and Rebellious about you know, sorry, I'm doing 18 things at once.
14:45: I didn't see everything So that's what happens a lot and I think it's a deficiency in them mark
14:51: Our Pentecostals truly say because they don't believe in once they've always say Are they saved because they don't believe in it.
14:58: So mark tell you what once you rewrite that question What's happening pastor
15:03: Kevin? No, I'm not sure I eat or a Rita Everybody's having a lot of conmigo.
15:09: It was this But it was a Iraqi Yes ponio.
15:15: No was muy bueno Are you? Are you going to answer questions in the chat?
15:22: Or would you like to put put up the stream yard in link for people to come in and ask you?
15:27: I have a stream yard on I think I put it in here already. Didn't I? Yeah, it's right there
15:32: Oh anybody wants to come in they can there it is again. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, I've seen
15:41: Pentecostals. I've seen many cultists that I've run into that might be accidentally saved because they're just not they're ignorant of some of the the
15:52: Cultic doctrine in the group they've been raised in it or just never questioned it. It's the first time they've
15:58: Made a commitment toward which what they thought was Christianity So accidentally
16:07: They might be saved because of that reason but if they're in there and they're hardcore denying things and refusing to accept
16:16: Essential biblical doctrine then then they wouldn't be saved but it's a hard call to make and and in the final outcome that the call is only made truly by the
16:26: Holy Spirit because he judges their heart and He knows what their attitude is inwardly all we can see is how they act and if they act in rebellion to Sound Christian doctrine then that kind of fruit gives us an indication as to their condition with God That's right.
16:47: I Mean I was I was in the Catholic Church and got saved are the people saved in the
16:53: Catholic Church. Yeah is Catholicism sound no But Nevertheless the
17:01: Lord saved me and In my case, I found my way out of the church
17:07: I have no people that have accepted the Lord and there's Christian in their life's walk as I am who decided to try to Stay and do something about it with their loved ones and and witness to them
17:18: It doesn't seem they stay there very long But some have decided to stay in that church just to to be a witness and an example and to try to draw people out but You know, yeah, there's people on lots of cults that I'm sure are saved but not because They're committed to the cultic doctrines of that group.
17:41: That's for sure. That's right Okay, I got it all done. I got the rumble link in there.
17:48: Oh All right so I did find it and So there you go.
17:55: Hey, I see it Yep, what I did was I just went to rumble and I just typed in open discussion with Matt slick and it came up That's how
18:04: I got it So there you go. All right now I can focus. Okay So as Eastern Orthodox a cult depends on how we define cult but Eastern Orthodoxy is not
18:15: Christian because it also Denies a true gospel and teaches a workspace salvation that you have to participate in the energies of God Which is the grace of God and that it works through you and in you over a long period of time to make you more
18:31: Like Christ theosis by then you by which you eventually become justified
18:36: Through all this cooperative work that you do with God over long periods a period of time. So that is a false gospel
18:43: It's not Christian. They also promote adoration worship of Mary They say they don't worship
18:48: Mary, but they do and one of the fact that reminds me one of the where is that? Where is that?
18:54: Yes, so I have a document and Yeah, here it is, all right, so I just started working on it where I thought okay what is
19:09: There we go. What is the definition of worship biblically? And So what
19:15: I'm doing is I'm going through every instance of the word worship in the Old Testament and just learning what it says and how the
19:24: Bible talks about worship as it relates to What to God, okay, so the last
19:32: I'm at Psalm 81 and I'm not going to tell you all my stuff.
19:38: They're kind of still researching it. But what I'm looking for Okay, this one says worship, you know not have any foreign
19:45: God and all I do is just go to the next word Worship occurs in in there and I'm in salt now.
19:52: It goes to Psalm 86. So what I'm gonna do The energies are the grace of God not divinity.
19:57: I don't think but it might be in their view. So what I'm going to do is Summarize what what the
20:04: Bible says worship is so for example worship the Lord with reverence Worship the
20:10: Lord in holy array Sing praises to him. So this is the aspects of worship.
20:15: So here's a question. Are they? Are they being reverent to Mary? Are they?
20:22: Well, are they having holy clothing when they address Mary? I mean, this is just some of the questions
20:28: Are they singing praises to Mary the and doing all these things the same with God?
20:35: Then that would be evidence that they are worshiping in this idolatry, so that's what I'm working on Not a big deal.
20:40: That's what I'm working on Also, if you guys want to get in the rubble or some you can chat type in there as well
20:46: And if not, no big deal probably give it another 15 -20 minutes if people don't show up. I'll shut it down Nothing lost
20:53: So there you go Okay. Yeah at 9 6. Let's see. Jesus is the everlasting
20:58: Father. Let's go to Isaiah 9 6 Let me share my screen here a little bit I'll do is
21:06: There we go, I'll do this and I'll show you something in the text
21:12: Okay, Oh Isaiah 9 6 That they fail. Okay so There we go
21:22: All right, so you can see Isaiah Well Isaiah come on Nine six, all right
21:31: And they'll say see he's he's the father and that's what they'll do. They'll just say he's the father
21:37: Okay now I said I'll pay attention for a child will be born with us to us a son will be given to us and the
21:44: Government will rest on his shoulders his name His name
21:51: Now when you say someone's name a name represents in Jewish theology It represents the character of somebody like Methuselah means when he dies it will come
22:02: Nathan from the thon means to give Matthew gift of God Isaac means laughter.
22:08: So you have things like this. All right, so his name and notice it says singular
22:14: His name will be called wonderful counselor mighty God eternal peace prince eternal father prince of peace
22:20: So what they'll do is they will say He's seen he is the eternal father
22:27: What they're doing is Ignoring what the text actually says his name will be called. So I say, okay, so he's the eternal father.
22:34: Okay good Where's he called? wonderful counselor Where's he called?
22:40: Mighty God, where's he called prince of peace? Where is Jesus called these things in the
22:46: New Testament and From I understand he's not okay So if he's not then what's going on with it, why is it that he's called these things
22:58: Watch this. Let's see, for example Yeah, there's no prince of peace
23:07: No mighty God in the New Testament Mighty God everlasting father prince of peace
23:16: Go back here A wonderful counselor and then we know
23:22: I know that's not there. So I asked him, okay So he's the father because his name is called the father, right?
23:30: Yes So it doesn't say he is the father, but he's perceived as the father at the end of that Where's he called wonderful counselor mighty
23:38: God or prince of peace? Well, he's not called this because it's these four things are the one name
23:44: What's going on And they don't have any answer because they're not thinking like that they're not thinking what's going on with the text, okay
23:54: All right, so there's that Nobody else have a comment or question.
24:04: I do that phrase eternal father in Isaiah Also means origin source
24:15: He's the source of eternity he's the Actually That it's used in the same fashion of the adversary the father of lies
24:30: He's the origin or source of all lies Well, this is eternal father the word father.
24:37: There's a be we get a buff from yeah father of eternity the
24:42: Jews will Interpret it to me or translate it for me which gives it a better a clearer crisper understanding in our
24:54: English language in our way of thinking Yeah, he's the origin or source of eternity. Just as Satan is the origin or source of lies the father of lies he's called and this father of eternity will give you the
25:09: The idea that that he is the source of eternity so that titles is is wrapped up in this phrase
25:15: Yeah So the one is Pentecostals ignore a lot of stuff They only look for what they want to find but the one that Pentecost one this
25:23: Pentecostal is not Christian All right, and neither is either orthodoxy. All right.
25:28: Anybody else got any comments or questions? anybody oh
25:35: You mentioned works righteousness and ether North the docks. Do you know you know, you have to actually work after you die to make your way through toll booths in order to Get Yeah, talk about works righteousness, man
25:50: You can't even get arrest after you pass away from this earth in that system. That's right that there's a false religion for you.
25:57: Yep Could you go to a little depth in? Pelagianism Pelagius plagianism is the teaching that the human nature is not fallen that Adam's sin is not reckoned to our
26:10: Account but that the human being is when born Conceived is without sin without fallenness.
26:17: That's Pelagian is and it's a false doctrine. That's a plagiarism is Okay All right.
26:27: So that's what that is Okay Man we've got ten people watching in rumble and 29 watching let's see.
26:44: How's it work? On karma videos On YouTube 21 and only 7 on karma
26:52: Facebook So it's alright Some hope like I said hoping the
26:58: Antis will come in but you know what I've noticed with the anti Calvinists is They're they're good at hiding behind nicknames and And they're not good at actually having a real discussion where they can be seen that's different They don't want to do that.
27:17: And I find that a little bit disingenuous that They don't want to be seen now.
27:22: I can understand if someone wants to maintain privacy, especially the ladies I get that but it happens across the board all the time
27:30: Wherever I do this whenever I do this do this off and on for a few years now Having a polite challenge come on out and we'll talk and I've noticed that it very often they just like Yes.
27:41: Yeah, there's a couple articles you have. Yeah Yep, and semi
27:51: Pelagianism I Just heard a noise I'm the only one in the house Of course we do have a 20 -pound cat that moves around So won't worry about it
28:02: Always say by works or faith by faith not by works. Okay Chicelle, all right
28:09: By faith alone in Christ alone. That's how we're saved All right.
28:15: Let's see anybody else anything else Wonder how I can get that in now.
28:21: Let's see if No, it's not. Okay. I'd still have
28:26: Clubhouse will close it right now. Okay Good.
28:32: I will go to tell Clubhouse well, this was an experiment it's all it was and And Last week we had a good discussion the guy one guy showed up in a good discussion
28:45: And it was last week I also offered on the calm forums for people to have a live discussion and they didn't do it and Same thing for tonight and they didn't do it.
28:56: So You know Either they're either afraid or they can't whatever reason but what happens like this all the time
29:07: I find that to be a problem. So mark part two part per Don is asking a question.
29:14: Oh You already did didn't you? That was 15 minutes ago. Okay. Oh Let's go to comments.
29:20: Let's see. All right. Yeah, I don't see any other New stuff.
29:26: All right, our super my super infra lapsarian, you know, I don't know
29:31: I I kind of go back and forth and sometimes I say no neither and then sometimes
29:37: I say in front I lean towards in front of anything that God looks into the all of creation and all of things that will exist in order to arrange his decrees, but There's I think there's logical problems with that.
29:55: So I Don't know if I'm either one actually so because Because if he's gonna look into the created order, okay, if he only exists if he's the one who's ordained that exist
30:07: So, how can you look into what he's already ordained he's ordained from eternity past so that's why I have a problem with in front
30:13: Supra issues. All right. It's talking about logical decrees though So I can't help but wonder since God knows all things eternally simultaneously
30:23: Exhaustively that there could be an order of decrees in that Logical necessity I can see and this is where I get into this discussion on that kind of stuff.
30:31: But anyway, okay, I got one comment Word comment in the in there.
30:40: Yeah, I put that in there Okay To keep at it. Once a person goes on to others will follow
30:46: Yeah, I'll give another five minutes if nobody shows up that would happen I'll just end it because I got a lot of cleanup to do a lot of work to do
30:53: I got articles I'm working on and I might go on in an hour or two. It might go on Discord and start talking there
31:02: We'll see at least there. I can get in all these great conversations In fact, you know what?
31:10: I just thought of something. I have an idea I've never done this before So I'm wondering if I could share the
31:27: I bet you I could what I could do if I wanted to I could go into discord and go into a room and Share what's happening in that room and you can see what happens.
31:46: I often get accosted And it's stuff but I'm looking through different rooms to see if I want to try this or not
31:56: So I'm glancing and it's all it would take of me just Sharing the screen and there's nothing really happening
32:08: Christian chat We try this Hold on a sec.
32:17: Hold on. Okay, so You know, can you hear yes
32:37: I muted myself. I'm going to share the screen I'm on mute
33:05: So this is a Christian chat You see right there. I'm moving the mouse This is a room called
33:13: God ain't ain't real Great trans debate
33:26: Amen, how you doing, buddy? Good I'm actually doing a video thing and I had this thought of putting a
33:36: Discord in the video thing and that's what I'm doing the first time I've ever tried it. So People are watching this stuff.
33:42: So they're gonna hear and maybe see too Yeah Yeah, so everyone
33:55: Yeah, we're talking about different Well, basically differences between Islamic Christianity and why you know, basically
34:03: You know, he brought up some issues about the translations of the versions and I was explaining to him how real
34:08: Christians Don't pay religious honor to images. So, you know, he understands that we're not aliens, you know, like in Christianity Muslims think that right?
34:20: They think that because a lot of so -called Christians are a large majority
34:29: We think that because the majority of people who claim they are Christians do they do what?
34:40: Okay, so are you low are you a Muslim Yes. All right.
34:45: So let me tell you that within Christianity like Islam. There are divisions and And so Eastern Orthodoxy bows to images
35:03: Roman Catholics bow to images and both of those religions are False Christianity, they're not true
35:10: Christians because they do those kinds of things among other things which are against the Bible, okay
35:22: Yeah, so what we do is we go with the scripture what the scripture says and A lot of these churches because they're so old they have traditions that just got in and just became more important than the
35:35: Bible itself All right You could say that But the devil wants to work inside of Catholicism inside of Eastern Orthodoxy and inside of Islam Okay Yeah, what if I could show you that Islam is false
36:13: I'm sorry, what? Okay, does it not say well let me go here
36:25: So if we're to go to surah for 157 then
36:31: I'll ask you something. All right, I'll read it Says and this is from Usuf Ali No, I don't have a link but I can post the
36:43: I can post it in the text Posted Okay, good
36:57: So right there in the text or a for 157 they that said in boasts We killed Christ Jesus son of Mary the
37:03: Apostle of Allah, but they killed him not nor crucified him But so it was made to appear to them, right?
37:12: Yes, okay. And is that a proper translation? Is it the case that it was made to appear to them that Jesus was crucified
37:26: Yes. All right the tops the top seer I've read say that it was Allah who did that would you agree?
37:41: Okay, I guess I can I can look for him, but do you agree that it was Allah who made it look like someone
37:48: No, no, who didn't you know who did it then we believe we believe as Muslims All the depth the devil
38:04: So if there was someone There was someone who was going to snitch basically
38:12: Excuse my English who is going to tell where Jesus was at that time and God made that person
38:25: I'll explain that to you. God made that person appear to be Jesus as a punishment
38:33: So you're saying then that in this surah or a yacht that Allah made someone look like Jesus, but it wasn't wasn't
38:42: Jesus made him look like him God so this person was trying to tell where Jesus was because people wanted to crucify him
38:52: Obviously, you know that So the person who found his location and was going to tell where he was
39:00: God made that person look like Jesus as punishment to that person Okay, so so I found that person and thought he was
39:09: Jesus That of Jesus of the actual Jesus and they Said and they believe that he was
39:17: Jesus when he wasn't. Okay, so My question is real simple
39:24: It was at Allah who made that person look like Jesus Yes, and he made him look like Jesus to be crucified
39:39: Okay, then Allah is a deceiver Because according to the
39:48: Quran Jesus was not crucified but Allah made someone look like you him to be crucified So Allah by his direct hand deceived people to make him think that Jesus was crucified when he really was not
40:01: People people People are the cause
40:11: Your God made it look like Jesus was crucified But he was not crucified may look like Jesus, but it wasn't
40:20: Jesus to get crucified when he was not crucified So your God by his own direct hand deceived people
40:29: Yes So your God is a deceiver Yeah Jesus Doesn't matter good people or not
40:50: So what the point is The point is that your
40:55: God Deceived people your God deceived them. That's the point
41:03: Your God is a deceiver He deceived him. He made something to look true.
41:09: That was actually false That's called deception is this the
41:15: God you want to follow yes, okay, so you want to follow a deceiver, okay
41:24: How do you know he's not lying to you? How do you know he's?
41:32: What's that? I Believe he's simply punishing people
41:43: Who wanted to kill a prophet? Okay, so but he the point is because because in every in every story in the
41:52: Quran where a prophet was harmed or Someone attempt to harm a prophet these people were instead punished.
42:03: I got that your God Deceived people that's the point not he punished them.
42:10: He did this like that's not it. It's he deceived people That's the point he deceived he lied to them
42:18: He made it made something that was not true appear to be true. So your God is a deceiver
42:27: That's the point your God is a deceiver So, how do you know he's not lying to you right now about Islam since he's a deceiver
42:43: People who did wrong So you would make your
42:49: God to save people right Depends on your
42:57: Definition. Okay. Look so he deceived people. We already went over this. Okay, he made something appear to be true
43:04: That was false. That's a deception So you're all a operative deception.
43:10: That means your God is a deceiver Okay, so that's what it is got another question for you, you know
43:19: Another question for you Where's a man seed formed in his body
43:40: Yeah in the Quran Incorrect Not proven it correct, but it hasn't proven that it is incorrect
43:57: Therefore it remains a mystery until someone can prove it wrong Well Let's look at what it says in surah 86 5 through 7.
44:10: All right surah 86 I'll put the text in Okay 86 hold on I've hyphen 7 maybe
44:24: Lisa will beat me to it put it in there And notice what it says here, all right
44:32: There it is in the text. Okay Sir, 86 5 through 7 now notice what it says let man but think from what he is created
44:44: He's created from a gushing fluid a drop emitted, okay
44:50: Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs So What's he created from a gushing fluid as one translation says or a drop emitted a
45:07: Drop is a small liquid part of a larger liquid body So this is talking about the sex act
45:15: And it's saying that The man seed comes from his chest
45:24: Because it's between the backbone and the ribs what's between the backbone and the ribs that's called the chest so So that's that's important because it says in surah 482
45:44: It says this this is surah Whoops they put it in here for 82
45:54: They Do they not consider the Quran with care had it been from other than Allah they would have found therein much discrepancy well, let's see all of the deceiver and Seed comes from a man's chest
46:13: Obviously Those are problems and according to the Quran if there's problems in it, it's not from Allah.
46:29: So I Just showed that Islam is false You can do the same with the
46:35: Bible. Well one at a time, please. So One at a time
46:44: Yeah, and so And we'll get to him in a second who says that okay, could you get your get it ready?
46:51: Okay, just get it ready it your thing. You want to say about the Bible? Okay. I'll call you a second. So Low low low low and slow.
46:59: I just showed you things in the Quran that according to the it When the Quran says if there's a problem in it then
47:08: It's not from Allah okay, and So it has problems.
47:14: So there's the Quran has now been proven to be false by what the Quran says, okay
47:22: Okay, okay So who's the other guy who's the guy who said that spoke up and said it's in the same thing in the
47:28: Bible They copied from from this guy not only this but others as well
47:46: I'd love to see the documentation on that You know, have you got it You know, let me see let me serious send it to info at calm org
47:57: I'd love to see that Okay, yeah put in there
48:16: Well, I would ask the other guy though the guy who said that The same thing with the
48:22: Bible. I want to see if he could back it up That's all I think they will get to you. Okay. All right.
48:31: Where's who was the guy who said that? What's K dot? Okay, that's it. Okay kiddo.
48:37: So Can you got anything you want to offer? Yeah, you said the the sperm thing was like an accuracy, right
48:45: I can't understand you my hearing's not very good what Yes sperm does not come from man's chest, okay
48:56: Yeah Well, I simply look like the story of creation
49:03: That doesn't Science, you know, that's not how it's going to be.
49:08: So that's just one thing Okay, so So Okay, you're breathing into the mic look pretty heavily.
49:19: Okay, so you assume that science is true, right? You can test it can you test the truth how the universe was formed
49:39: No, I can't touch that. Okay. So then the science scientists are making a an educated guess about things, right?
49:46: It's not a fact So here's the thing Specifically talking about Humans came to be in on the universe because there's much less science
49:56: Speculation No, it's not you might want to look up an article called the mitochondrial
50:07: Eve Okay, and it talks about the common DNA mitochondrial the
50:12: DNA that is traced back to a single woman Okay mitochondrial Eve Just look it up I mean it's
50:21: I read it years No, you oh, I guess you can't type something in and look up mitochondrial
50:27: Eve, okay Okay, so okay so there's that and you said something about what human ancestors
50:42: No, I don't need to send it to you so Okay No evidence for your beliefs you just said science proves this or that you haven't said anything
51:02: We'll tell you what have some left someone look it up mitochondrial Is this what evolution taught you how to be rude
51:18: Okay so Yeah, hold on what a thing, okay there look mitochondrial
51:28: Eve I just found it on Wikipedia What's it mitochondrial Eve theory? No, a mitochondrial
51:34: Eve is not the first female of the species the myth of Eve molecular biology human origin scientists Scientists think they found my mitochondrial
51:41: Eve's first whatever. It's just right there. There's all kinds of stuff. Yeah So read
51:50: Okay, okay, all right good so let me ask you so let me ask you you said the
51:56: Bible's wrong about what I Can't understand this guy is he is he clear to you guys?
52:04: No, you saw blow you need to get closer to your mic Because Okay The you're assuming you're making assumptions and you're having problems with your assumptions.
52:30: Okay, so you assume that all things It's called uniformitarianism
52:35: You're assuming that the genetics act the same way now as it always has been this is an assumption.
52:41: You know, let me finish Yeah Biblically speaking Adam and Eve were created with perfect genetics
52:48: So they could have children that could interbreed and it wasn't till later When the interbreeding was too much that God said no no more of that.
52:55: So it's not a problem. Okay? You anything else? What Yeah, it's in the book of 2nd
53:12: Moronicles look are you gonna ask me are you gonna ask me to prove every single thing I say
53:17: Every time no, I just I asked you I asked you I asked you
53:24: I Asked you a question. Are you gonna answer the question? Are you going to ask me to prove every little detail?
53:31: I say with documentation. That's my question. No, no, I So the answer is no So the answer is no.
53:38: Yes. Well, just just answer simply. What's the answer? The answer is no. Okay good
53:53: Be quiet for a second. Let me finish talking. What is with you? Why are you so rude?
54:01: Yeah, dude, I'm just asking you a simple question and you just keep rambling
54:07: The Bible teaches us that God made Adam and Eve very good. It was good
54:13: It doesn't say the word perfect doesn't say genetics But the answer that we give us Christians is that because God had made them without any flaws without anything
54:22: And we know that that there's genetic entropy. We know that the genome is decaying that there's
54:27: Problems and errors that are creeping in that wasn't the case at the beginning so we as a
54:32: Christians we would just say then they could then interbreed for Generations and then after a while they stopped doing that.
54:40: That's the answer. Okay? Now you mentioned plummeted ancestors, right
54:52: Did you Okay Okay, I can't understand this guy it's so bad the connection so bad or it's so I can't understand half the words he's saying
55:10: Yeah, it's unclear. Yeah See he wants to talk about You know, he wants to just assume evolution is true.
55:18: I can guarantee you he's never studied the other side He's never studied the counter evidence to evolution or human ancestors.
55:27: He's never done it once Okay, have you ever studied or read any books that work against the theory of evolution
55:44: Okay, I didn't ask if you listen I said have you read no
55:51: So the answer is what what's the answer Okay Yes I'm really asking a reading here from chat.
56:10: It's as importantly mitochondrial Eve was not the first human first human woman
56:18: Nor was she the only woman living at her time? She lives the more population of humans but by chance her mitochondrial
56:27: DNA lineage is the one that has survived to all living humans and Today, this is the major criticism, which
56:36: I'm seeing from the atheist camp in regard of that argument How would you answer to that?
56:43: Chad GTP is only as good as the programmers who tell you what kind of information to find This is a problem with the
56:49: AI stuff and it's a well -known problem If you go to Science News releases of 2010 of I believe it's
56:56: August. This is what it says, August 17 2010 From it says mitochondrial
57:02: Eve mother of all humans lived 200 ,000 years ago summary the most robust statistical Examination to date of our species genetic links to mitochondrial
57:10: Eve the maternal ancestor of all living humans Confirms that she lived about 200 ,000 years ago
57:16: The study was based on a side -by -side comparison of 10 human genetic models that each aim to determine when evil
57:23: Lived using a very different set of assumptions about the way humans rich a migrated expanded spread economy across the earth
57:31: Okay, so there's an article that says it so look here's the thing. I Say to people you better go study
57:38: You better go find out if you want to say that evolution is true. You better find out if evolution is true
57:44: You better read the counter evidence and to see you better find out are these human ancestors really human ancestors?
57:51: What about the dating methodology what about energy form energy but information formation and transference in genetic models
57:58: You guys should study this stuff But what I see people doing is oh, we'll just read whatever they say and whatever evolution to say
58:05: We'll just believe it and they never check it There have been fakes there have been frauds.
58:10: There's have been lots of discrepancies inside the human ancestor line I've got a lot of them Listed here and when someone said you know, you got a jet
58:18: Chad GTP says it's a problem. Okay I find an article is that it's not a problem. So which is true the one you want to be true
58:26: Find out the evidence find out what's going on. Okay Find out research.
58:33: So here's a question How many of you have read any and what's the title of them any?
58:40: anti -evolution books Anybody Pages and it's
58:53: Refuting evolution and making a case for intelligent design. Oh good. Okay.
58:58: Yeah Okay I mean,
59:07: I'm sorry, but I had no patience to keep listening to So you do reject the truth of our shared naturalistic atheistic
59:21: What I'm on your side.
59:36: I just want to prove my responses. That's why Let him finish
59:51: Go ahead. Okay. So so what I am saying is I'm trying
59:56: I want to improve my Responses to that argument that they are bringing claiming that Michael Coyneville Eve wasn't the first Human but what what what they claim is that she was one of other women
01:00:12: This is a human being. This is a human being. This is a human being Check Okay, I get you one of the things
01:00:21: I'm concerned about I read an article recently about chat GTP and the AI and They're giving they're finding out and approving it.
01:00:29: They're giving skewed answers to things and So, you know, it's like okay that doesn't mean just miss everything it says
01:00:38: But it does mean that okay, is there evidence out there that it's not presenting it is some analysis of political questions
01:00:47: What are some things that Biden did wrong it with what it was exactly the sentence and it wouldn't produce anything
01:00:53: But when he asked exact same question negatively about Trump It gave all kinds of stuff and they ran some tests with some other areas like this too and found out that Conservative views were dismissed and liberal views were promoted
01:01:06: So there's and Google with Gemini it's been found to be guilty of this but Google's saying no
01:01:16: It's not the case that it's all it's all just the way the questions are asked But it's not because they're finding it across the board with the exact same thing or don't let different people get different results radically so I'm using
01:01:31: And what I can say is that what you're saying is true that it Proposes and famous naturalistic explanations
01:01:41: Origins, but if you ask check to be give me an answer from an apologist standpoint
01:01:47: But don't say it then he will give you valuable answers, which you can use as an apologist
01:01:54: Okay. Yeah, I'm trying to use it too, and I can't trust it Implicitly so I look up things and go.
01:02:01: Okay. What about this? What about that? And I know my theology really well So I'll ask I've asked it questions on some things.
01:02:07: It does pretty well, but sometimes it's like not quite but So anyway, that was a thing is that there's evidence
01:02:15: I know I'm familiar with both the evidence for and against a mitochondrial Eve So familiar that there are arguments on both sides, but the point
01:02:24: I'm trying to make to people is they're not studying They're just they're just saying I just believe whatever evolutionists.
01:02:30: Tell me why because it's easier because they want to and They're not believing in God because of responsibility that Actually are which explain organismal complexity and architecture
01:02:52: No yeah, that is what my book is about and basically the answer to that question is that Life is much more complex than most people think and you have a gene centric
01:03:08: It is based on genetic information, but mostly on epigenetic information and I have collected 223 epigenetic codes and languages which work in an interdependent fashion together and You need in many cases one epigenetic code working in interdependent way
01:03:30: Interdependently with another epigenetic language and it works in a synergistic manner together
01:03:36: And if you remove one language, it cannot do anything The other language cannot do anything with that other language.
01:03:44: We both languages operating and working together Wow, and if you don't have that no deal and we are talking about 223 epigenetic codes we are talking about hundreds of signaling pathways
01:03:58: We are talking about so many Interdependent things that need to work together that you cannot have that in an evolutionary
01:04:10: Stepwise fashion why I give you an example You need the gene regulatory network to express genes and you need that from the beginning of life if you have a fully formed genetic
01:04:23: Information a set of genes But you do not have the program to express that information at the right moment at the right time
01:04:31: No deal. You have no use for the genetic information. So you need both you need the genetic information and gene regulatory code and set which the
01:04:44: Orchestrates the expression of that information and you need that right from the beginning of life
01:04:51: That's awesome, I'd love to see that documentation Yeah, I can't give you the link to my book
01:04:58: Sure Are you familiar with? Go ahead.
01:05:04: I mean, it's a big book. It has 52 different Mechanisms which are employed in life to orchestrate organism of complexity
01:05:16: And and there are also the main tenet of evolution which is universal common ancestry there are 47 reasons and mechanisms which provide evidence that Universal common ancestry isn't actually true.
01:05:34: And one thing is remarkable that Science mainstream science admits that there are seven different lineages of viruses and that already falsifies universal common ancestry you need life and Viruses operating together from the beginning.
01:05:55: Well, what about you cannot have? about endogenous retroviruses Well, they are needed also our placenta needs endogenous viruses
01:06:06: They are necessary. They have very specific functions. Yes. No. Yes, but they're saying they're saying the
01:06:13: ERVs Viruses that were not human that became integrated into our genome and then provide certain areas of benefit
01:06:21: Which is why humanity can be what it is as complex as human structures and they say that they're in the same genetic
01:06:27: Areas among different species. What would you say about that? well, I have an entire chapter in regards of Claim that we and Apes have a common ancestor that is not for several reasons for several reasons
01:06:45: One is for example that the human brain is differently wired then the brain of apes a
01:06:54: Second reason is that we have we can speak and that depends on nine individual interdependent and irreducibly complex systems and Parts of the brain which apes don't have and they are also
01:07:12: Interdependent so you need the entire system of these nine different distinct systems working and operating together well, two or three years ago,
01:07:21: I had a debate on modern -day debate between me John Maddox and Erica and Cy guard, okay
01:07:32: I brought up in 15 minutes of my introduction. I wrote that argument why
01:07:40: I don't believe that Humans have common ancestor with apes and she in her entire stream
01:07:49: Anything of course what I said because she can't do it, of course not they can't
01:07:57: Right. Yeah. Yeah, I'm definitely interested in your book. I'd love to see it Seriously Pages it is it goes into the biochemistry to the details
01:08:12: I show all the mechanisms that are employed in constructing complex organisms
01:08:17: I list the codes. I list the signaling Pathways, I say
01:08:23: I list the 52 reasons Why we don't share universal common ancestor by going all to these topics
01:08:32: Good for you Yeah, this guy says really educated on this house. That's like right.
01:08:38: That is very good. There's another guy I know who studied ERVs endogenous retroviruses.
01:08:44: He's written a book and One of the things I want to do. I wanted to learn the basics of DNA up through Up to the level of explaining and understanding how the coding information works and is distributed
01:08:59: So, it's one of the projects I want to work on There's a lot Well, I know that we have about two to three percent
01:09:11: Folding DNA which codes for proteins But the other the other section the other 98 % with the encode
01:09:21: Project we don't yet still know how how much of that Previously called junk
01:09:28: DNA is actually jumping right on the exact number they came up with about Saying that about 80 % is actually functional.
01:09:37: It has a function. It's increasing The percentage is increasing.
01:09:43: Yes Yeah, so what we know is that it has function and Most is used in the gene regulatory network like micro
01:09:54: RNAs It regulates the expression of genes, so this means that like that argument that we have some
01:10:05: Retroviruses that share the same place where they're inserted in in apes and in humans that therefore we have
01:10:14: Ancestors that is disqualified and refused precisely by the fact that the common designer
01:10:20: He can't have put the same retroviruses in the same place Because they have function because they do something at that, right?
01:10:30: That's right Wow Sorry, I know I don't know as much as you do, but I know enough to know man.
01:10:37: You're nailing the right issues Good stuff. So I'm looking in the notes.
01:10:43: I don't see where the book is. I see the reason then science link Well, I send you a link the world that is about the
01:10:52: Islam guy about right From the Greek medic, but I'll send you a link to my book.
01:11:00: Okay? The name of the book is beyond the origin of species by design
01:11:10: Is it on a Kindle yes
01:11:17: Okay, I'm gonna look at it right now Okay, good good good man,
01:11:32: I needed that our hundred years of study Okay, I got it.
01:11:38: No, I'm ordering it. I'm buying it right now. They're just got it
01:11:48: Really Yeah, it's on Kindle I do everything on Kindle and I have
01:11:54: I'm gonna open my Kindle thing up here No, you'll take 30 seconds. I'll tell you how many books
01:11:59: I've got on Kindle. I used to have Thousands of books just paper books.
01:12:05: I mean and they're boxes and boxes and boxes I still have boxes of books and people have given me over the years.
01:12:12: I They became kind of useless because they're just lining walls Well, what am
01:12:17: I gonna do with them? you know, so if I do everything on Kindle then I can do a search inside of books just like that and Plus I can put all of them on my phone
01:12:29: So it's for me. It's just a lot easier Okay, it's Kindle's opening here
01:12:36: Yeah, good stuff, okay Well Well if I've already got it in Kindle that's fine,
01:12:51: I mean I appreciate it PDF Yeah, oh of course of course now what you go to church, right
01:13:08: Well currently I am not going to church actually Do you believe why the question do you believe in the
01:13:16: Trinity? Oh, yes. Yes, okay you should email me at info at karma org because we should keep in contact because Yeah, we should okay
01:13:28: I Did send you my Email address private.
01:13:35: So just send me a and I will return to you with the PDF version. Okay? Okay Well good
01:14:00: Do you think the shredder turns real or authentic Okay And there's some interesting stuff
01:14:16: Yeah Yeah, I got
01:14:30: Yeah Yeah, I think it is the science is very very solid today at 40 years of studying
01:15:00: The scientific evidence of the shroud We can say with high certainty that this isn't forgery from the
01:15:09: Middle Ages It's really forgery could make a photo negative with 3d information and cold it in that image
01:15:18: Yeah, that's the thing That's exactly the thing that caused me to pause to say how do they get the 3d relationship in there if it was fake?
01:15:27: How do you do sharing this And Besides that you have so many other different lines like the
01:15:40: It has also brought a B then and there is
01:15:46: Poland on both the cloths You know From from to reach out to it, which we know it comes from the region of Jerusalem.
01:15:58: Then there is also Calcium which we know is in the in the
01:16:05: Area from Jerusalem as well. Then the image itself it is 0 .2
01:16:12: micrometers thick this is very very thin and Today nobody's able to reproduce
01:16:19: The shroud nobody interest. Oh, how could that be fake? Interesting.
01:16:24: I'm gonna check this out good stuff Yeah, I mean my book on the shroud has 540 pages.
01:16:32: Wow This awesome good Okay, we'll check it out.
01:16:41: Hey, we got Fred Beale in And You know, the Sudirman for me a dough has been radiocarbonated to the 8th century and it has a confirmed historical track to the 6th century and We know that it is the face cloth which covered
01:17:00: Jesus which is mentioned in the Gospels Yeah, I'll check it out. There's a lot there and by the way, so I have 577 books in Kindle No, and a lot of Harrison And Then I have
01:17:24: I don't know how many PDFs, but anyway, I get a lot. Anyway, they appreciate information. That's good stuff
01:17:35: Yeah, I emailed you all right
01:17:43: Yep, good. All right. Okay. Hey Fred. How are you?
01:17:49: Oh, excuse me? So we talked about No, I'm just hanging out.
01:18:03: All right, it's hanging out. Okay I'm trying a Wednesday night thing here. And then
01:18:09: I thought I get this idea of including Discord so I have the discord running and Let's see.
01:18:17: Where is it? Yeah, see there's discord so and This guy right here
01:18:24: Rami. He's a good guy. He always he's always got my back when I go online and and Talk in discord.
01:18:32: So he's a good guy. I Download a discord one so I can figure it out Yeah, it takes a bit to get used to it's not exactly user -friendly but once you get the basics then it's easy to get around Anybody in the discord
01:18:51: Well, this one's in the politics Christian chat It's in politics.
01:18:57: I wonder No wonder I couldn't find you But is that your group or it's just a random group of your world?
01:19:05: No, I have my own groups Elsewhere, but I rarely go in there and the reason is is because if I go in there everybody comes in if I leave
01:19:15: Then everybody's in there. I don't know how it works. It's not moderated And so I've people have told me that they've gone into the rooms just shown porn shown stuff
01:19:24: You know, so I I go into these rooms and then I'm done. It's up to them to moderate.
01:19:31: So yeah That's Contrarian hey, look at that.
01:19:39: So basal any of you guys in Christian chat have any comments or questions? No Good stuff.
01:19:56: Okay. What what's your question? So I was talking with a reporter from there clear and he told me that we were basically, he told me that Synergists are not
01:20:09: Christian. They don't believe the gospel Okay, if they mean satirical synergism,
01:20:16: I would agree because monergism is the biblical position that Faith alone not our faith and our works
01:20:25: Contribute to salvation but faith alone is what saves us Synergism is the idea that faith and our works working together save you that's a false gospel oh, yeah, that is a false gospel, but like we're talking about faith alone the
01:20:42: Protestants who are Synergists who believe that they freely accept the gift from God and it's on the basis of faith and You know, it's by Christ alone.
01:20:54: They confess faith alone increase alone impressed alone They're just you know, like our million Protestants.
01:21:00: They're not like he's Orthodox or Roman Catholics Right here say he's saying even like the you know, all the
01:21:05: Protestants that are not Monarchists don't believe in the gospel, you know Well, it's he always the defined term.
01:21:13: I almost said to you. What do you mean by that? but I didn't but when we're talking to somebody if If someone's like some
01:21:20: Calvinist will say and I disagree with him for this they'll say that an Armenian will say well, I chose to believe and Therefore I'm saved and then some
01:21:28: Calvin's will say well, that's that's you taking credit and therefore it's synergism And I don't go that far
01:21:35: I just say that the Armenians just aren't well versed and well Polished in their understanding and articulation of it.
01:21:42: Not that you are aren't saved because of that. That's right. Yeah Like if you believe that It's synergistic then you're believing and you know a different gospel and then like What they say much usually they're like Protestant Armenians.
01:22:10: They're gonna say that It's all Christ who did the work and they just believe in Christ, you know
01:22:20: Yeah Yeah, we have to understand what they mean and what the definitions are like that So Here's a question
01:22:29: Jimmy says did the Apostle James and the Jewish Christians keep the old and new covenants during the four years before the
01:22:34: Direction of the temple. I Don't know Don't know what they did.
01:22:40: I'm not a historian and tell you what they did or didn't so that's beyond my purview Question for Matt.
01:22:49: Do you still say you're a five -point on the legal pedo -baptist non -cessational covenantal Calvinist? Yes, I do
01:22:55: Liberty troll so good. So you can't see this
01:23:00: Ronnie, but It's being broadcast on Rumble Facebook and YouTube So I'm getting
01:23:11: And what I've done is I've shared this Okay, so I'm inside a stream yard Which is feeding out to all those different ones and then
01:23:20: I went and got a discord open and I'm sharing the screen with discord Into here so that people are watching can see discord the way
01:23:30: I would see it and they can hear you guys talk as well Yeah, I like a comment on the the question about the
01:23:38: Apostles and the you're the the ceremonial system prior to the prior to 70
01:23:48: Well, it's cuz I'm like I said last time I'm preaching through Hebrews right now And it's it seems like from the book of Hebrews that That they weren't practicing the
01:23:59: Jewish ceremonial system anymore because that's really what the author is is a writing the the the epistle to the
01:24:06: Hebrews for that he's writing to rebuke the Those Jewish converts who were saying let's go back to these shadows, you know we we can have
01:24:18: Christ, but let's also we also need a Prophet and that's chapter one or or you know, we we can have
01:24:27: Christ but we also need the ceremonial law of Moses right or we also need the priesthood and the authors say no
01:24:34: There's nothing to go back to Christ has fulfilled it. All Christ is the prophet Christ is the
01:24:40: King Christ is the fulfillment of Moses. He is the fulfillment of the priesthood
01:24:45: He's the fulfillment of everything. There's nothing that you can go back to because Christ has already completed it so I don't think there's anything in the scriptures off top of my head that Makes me think that they were still going to temple and and doing all these
01:24:59: Doing this ceremonial system prior to 70 AD and actually everything that scriptures team seems to teach that they were teaching against them
01:25:12: The Jewish Christians keep the old new covenants There was a lot of it and I'm with you there's a lot of ignorance among the
01:25:20: Christians right away So they may have been keeping Old Testament stuff when they didn't need to But they didn't need to if they did so that's what the writer was doing
01:25:31: The writer was telling the Hebrews that had become Christians to knock it off and quit living like Hebrews Because it wasn't necessary That's right.
01:25:43: So I'm sure there were a lot of Jewish Christians who weren't doing it and some who still were
01:25:49: But yeah, yep, was it the early group needed some correction, yep
01:25:56: Yeah Well, you know old harbit have a hard to talk hard to to change.
01:26:06: So Fred, were you a pastor at? well, I'm not a pastor yet, but Just a small local
01:26:14: Reformed Church here where I live. Okay, that's right.
01:26:23: I'm tired Okay. Well, I think what
01:26:29: I'm gonna do is Get going
01:26:38: Because yeah, so it's look a slow night but not but kind of and that nothing's really happening a whole bunch
01:26:50: Adj who's here? What's he about? He's a brother Yeah No Catholic doctrine is not
01:27:16: Christian though It's gonna be the same
01:27:28: Yes, but their soteriology is false Okay, I'm sure when
01:27:33: Christ comes back it informs them that they're wrong I'm sure that those who aren't going to listen will feel he's wrong and those that will listen will come to the fault and same thing goes with us
01:27:43: Okay Official Roman Catholic Official Roman Catholic theology teaches a false gospel
01:27:54: I Can't understand what you're saying what you said how so Oh How so because in paragraph 20 68?
01:28:05: It says you attain salvation through faith baptism and the observance of the Commandments in paragraph 20 36
01:28:11: It says that it's necessary to keep the precepts of the natural law necessary for salvation in paragraph 2070 it says an express revelation of the
01:28:21: The precepts of the the precepts natural law are the Ten Commandments so That means you have to keep the
01:28:28: Ten Commandments to be saved So Roman Catholicism teaches you have to do good works in order to be saved
01:28:43: Well, the Catholics like anathematize the gospel of Trent, you know, they specifically anathematize like faith alone
01:28:55: Okay It is for you to decide if you know the
01:29:02: Word of God and you should be able to discern the Word of God because 1st Corinthians 2 15 says and that the Spiritual men can make spiritual judgments
01:29:09: So if someone were to deny for example that Jesus Christ is God in flesh deny the resurrection deny the
01:29:14: Trinity You can't call them a Christian you have must say if you continue like this when you die, you're gonna go to hell
01:29:21: That's that's the that's it. And so this is why Paul got in and started correcting all these errors He's warning you don't say get in and we're to do the same thing
01:29:29: Roman Catholicism teaches a false gospel Yeah It tells us just to be
01:29:53: Gatherers, right? Let us bro. Let us vote growing together until the harvest at that time I will tell the harvesters first collect the weeds and tie them into a bundle to be done
01:30:02: Then I will gather the way you bring him into my heart like we understand that he's the one who sorts them out Like he's gonna sort out
01:30:12: Just just because just because you're basically saying is because it is because Well, what a time what it's not go ahead
01:30:26: What I have Between me
01:30:35: Protestant Christian and Catholics that is for example the Shroud of Turing and I have group on Facebook and I have many many
01:30:45: Catholics. What do I do? I make videos on my channel where I clearly preach
01:30:51: The the gospel of salvation by faith and I put it there in the group and I do not confront the
01:31:00: Catholics in regards of these issues I try to find points of convergence where we do not disagree with each other and then bring this information and Not having debates with confrontation because I have experienced that many times this is
01:31:20: Okay, okay, but a part of that focus on the sectarian point of view of the gospel Okay, I am
01:31:29: I have absolutely confused the gospel is The death bill resurrection of Jesus Christ were justified by faith alone in Christ alone.
01:31:37: Do you affirm that? Okay Let me
01:31:46: Yes, it is When I read if it comes to you know building block for you to take on a start
01:31:57: What? It was chapter 2 Cornerstone am
01:32:03: I a building block or a cornerstone Cornerstone the chief cornerstone bring
01:32:11: Jesus. So yes, those are the only two options I have Did you know the
01:32:20: Bible says in 1st Corinthians 11 19 there must be factions among each other Those who are approved may become evident among you.
01:32:27: Don't let me ask you. Yeah, if someone denies the roots Jeez We're all going to sit at the same table together
01:32:39: Yeah, hold on let's start let me ask you some I can't hear that guy DJ do you affirm?
01:32:47: 80k do you affirm that we're justified by faith alone in Christ alone? Yeah, so if someone were to deny that would you call him a
01:32:54: Christian? Oh If you're gonna explicitly
01:33:01: If someone explicitly if they explicitly deny it, would you call him a Christian? Explicitly so you're making judgments
01:33:15: Okay, and you're causing division Yes, no, you can't treat him as a brother not a brother in the face
01:33:28: No, no not a brother in the faith No, no, no you listen you can be nice to them
01:33:37: They're not brothers in the faith Then your faith is false if you're gonna say that someone who did not is the gospel is a brother in Christ Okay, what why don't you do some serious
01:34:01: Okay Okay, why don't you stop with the arrogant foolishness and mockery once you listen to the
01:34:08: Word of God for a second You are the one who's supposed to be able to tell what the gospel is And now what you're doing is
01:34:14: I tell you, you know If someone denies this would you call him a brother in Christ you say no
01:34:19: I think you make a division stem and you say you still treat him as a brother and I was just being more Yeah, let me finish
01:34:27: Let me finish and Then I said and you could not call him a brother in Christ You can't call someone a brother in Christ if they're denying the gospel, right?
01:34:44: Well, I don't care if you have an issue with that apparently you don't
01:34:51: Screaming at me a little apparently you don't understand what the gospel Apparently Yeah, so so Matt would actually say that if someone believes the gospel they are
01:35:12: Saved even if they're like calling themselves a Roman Catholic or you know Like in the
01:35:18: Catholic Church, but then if they actually believe and they're saved by grace through faith, they're still safe So he doesn't deny that Catholics can't be saved.
01:35:27: It's just official Catholic doctrine is wrong and we should disagree with it
01:35:33: Like that's why we have the Reformation I Don't believe you understand what the gospel really is because you're not discerning
01:35:49: Okay, but I go I don't care but you're not discerning about what the truth really is and you're supposed to be able to Define and discern between truth and error if someone comes to you and says
01:35:59: Jesus did not rise from the dead He can't be a true Christian. I mean they affirm that and that's their position not ignorance.
01:36:06: We're talking. That's their position They can't be called a Christian if they add works to salvation They cannot be called a
01:36:12: Christian if you say I'm going to stop what? You're way too hostile
01:36:19: Well, you know what the Bible says It was
01:37:01: Like, you know discord bro channels with Christianity It's pathetic and all it does is highlights to the outside world and I've come from inside Well is
01:37:10: Christians aren't very good at being Christians and the one thing that Jesus prays for we don't even really care about We just care about the body people and being legalistic.
01:37:19: Well, hold on. Hold on. You're preaching a lot of stuff I'm gonna do I'm gonna respond to you. Hold on. Hold on.
01:37:25: So We are supposed to be discerning the spiritual man can discern all things he makes spiritual judgments
01:37:33: That's what we're supposed to do it says that the elder for example in Titus chapter 1 and first Timothy 3 according to God's Word is supposed to be able to teach sound doctrine and refute
01:37:45: Can you let me finish please Please let my respond and then respond like let's let's be brothers, right?
01:37:54: We're supposed to be brothers Yeah, let me respond because you were so rude. You keep interrupting and you call me hostile
01:38:01: Okay, so the time telling you where the scriptures say what elders are supposed to do
01:38:06: When I'm trying to raise a point you interrupt me and you let me finish the point the elders are supposed to The elders are supposed to be able to teach sound doctrine and refute error
01:38:21: The point I'm making is that there's a there is a differentiation
01:38:26: Between what's truth and error and the leaders in the church are supposed to know that and be able to make those divisions
01:38:34: Do you understand that? I'm an ex pastor.
01:38:39: I'm an ordained minister I was Look Okay ADG ADG what's the gospel to what the gospel is?
01:39:02: How are you just how are we justified? I didn't say I was an elder
01:39:09: Man Somebody waste me ten minutes of your time eight minutes is your fault.
01:39:19: So I think this is interesting. Okay, this guy Don't look dude, you're not even answering the question.
01:39:27: You're not even hearing what I'm saying. You asked me if I'm an ally Can you let me talk without interrupting?
01:39:35: Okay, and you please let me finish without being
01:39:41: Interrupted Oh Go away go away change your diapers someplace else
01:40:23: No, it's not he's acting like a child I've heard him do it before.
01:40:43: He'll talk about how we're saved by Christ alone and all of that, you know by grace alone But I don't think that's what we're gonna get from this guy
01:40:54: Sapphire who's you know trying to talk to you right now. Yeah so, you know,
01:40:59: I get I get where ADJ is coming from a principle sense because you know, we have a view it's not the same as a lot of Westerns types with the
01:41:10: There's there's a real legalistic view of salvation in a lot of a lot of mindsets a lot of philosophies push this legalistic view of you know, we committed an infraction a judicial infraction against God with our sin and Because of that we owe him some sort of Atonement that we can't of ourselves produce because we are famed by that very same sin
01:41:38: So we need in the place of our own works we need some sort of Substitution, right
01:41:49: However in the orthodox view, you know, we view sin slightly different We see it as rather than it being a legal affront
01:41:58: We see it as an illness that we suffer from and that source of that illness is no different Than the source in these
01:42:06: Western philosophies and see it's the disobedience of man's the sin of that ultimately Let her finish the
01:42:17: Just actually real fast to answer your question more directly about what the gospel is John 3 16 tells us it says for God so loved the world
01:42:26: That he gave his only begotten Son that whoever believes in him should not perish But have everlasting life for God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world
01:42:36: But that the world through him might be saved. So salvation is completely and utterly the work of Christ and the mechanism by which he achieved that was
01:42:48: His life death and resurrection not just the crucifixion but the entirety of the whole the incarnation
01:42:55: He was born of a virgin. We know perfect life The the crucifixion itself, but the fasting that lights up that led up to it the three days
01:43:06: We know this we know. Is there a point though? You're trying to get to Sapphire what is it?
01:43:24: What is the gospel? Seth separate.
01:43:30: No, what can you tell me in one sentence what the gospel is? Yes Okay for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten
01:43:40: Son And whoever believe in him, okay All right Okay, that's not the gospel, but it's nice the gospel is
01:43:54: Sapphire the gospel is the death burial of resurrection. That's 1st Corinthians 15 1 through 4 Oh, I didn't hear you.
01:44:01: Oh, so it's my apologies. I heard I'm 360. That's what I heard. So I Am I'm being honest
01:44:27: I thought you're rambling to Okay, well hold on hold on hold on hold on hold on look, can you tell me okay
01:44:37: Sapphire Are we justified before God by faith alone in Christ alone? Absolutely, and you're not
01:44:44: Eastern Orthodox I Know that's not what hold on. Hold on Can I Yeah, you're wrong
01:45:00: Appreciate appreciate you People talk without over talking there.
01:45:07: Yeah Listen You can respond when he's done
01:45:13: You're literally interrupting me while I'm asking you to stop interrupting. Just silence your mind until he's done.
01:45:19: It was like a cordial conversations Man it's like it's incredible I'm asking you a specific question and every time
01:45:27: I ask you something Sapphire You have to go on with a dissertation and you go on and on I mean, we're just asking something simple and I asked you are we justified before God by faith alone in Christ alone?
01:45:41: Now no works nothing. It's just by faith alone in Christ. Oh, do you agree with that or not?
01:45:49: I What Eastern Orthodoxy teaches is that justifications a lifelong process you familiar with that Yes, ma 'am and again
01:46:04: You can go back to your question if it's a lifelong process, how is it instantaneous well again
01:46:11: Matt The Calvinists the people that believe in predestination and all this so they believe in the same sort of thing with second patient Sanitation is a lifelong process.
01:46:24: Okay, I'll talk about justification in Eastern Orthodoxy Referred again.
01:46:30: It's a word word concept Also, so it doesn't mean the same thing in my group as it is in your group So we have we have we can we can define working definitions
01:46:39: If you want to ask me for clarification as to what I believe that I can tell you But you can't tell me what
01:46:46: I believe because of your word concept out to you Oh you hear Eastern Orthodox, and then you project what you think
01:46:53: Tell you what? Go ahead
01:47:09: Jesus or Christianity That means you don't believe in evolution Not necessarily depends what kind of evolution micros permissible not macro, can we get back to the justification something
01:47:25: So Sapphire I've been researching Eastern Orthodoxy for a while now years.
01:47:33: I have a document. That's 86 pages It doesn't mean I got everything right. I've talked to a lot of Eastern Orthodox people.
01:47:41: I've got documentation from Eastern Orthodox sources for example Justification.
01:47:47: This is from Orthodox bridge calm. This term deals with how a person comes into and maintains a right relationship with God Ultimately, this is made possible by the cross of Christ by which he made expiation for our sins granting us forgiveness and bringing us to a right relationship with God Justifications accomplished at baptism and maintained through a life of obedience to God and confessions of sins
01:48:09: Could you agree with that? Yep Sapphire do you agree with that?
01:48:16: Yeah, okay Then you the confusion I'm having is I said you believe in just a bit that justifications by faith alone in Christ alone
01:48:24: Where this says it's maintained through obedience. That's not faith alone
01:48:30: So the faithful are not obedient So you think faith is a bunch of works
01:48:40: Faith is inherently obedience. No obedience starts with the letter
01:48:46: O Faith starts with the letter F. They're in different parts of the dictionary.
01:48:52: They have different definitions Okay So they the faith the faithful are obedient though, correct
01:49:04: You normatively speaking but Paul the Apostle says we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law
01:49:13: Romans 3 20 So, how can you be agree that is justified apart from the works of the law when it says that you have to be justified?
01:49:21: by obedience You are Okay. So how are you both justified by works and not justified by works?
01:49:28: You're making an arbitrary you're making an arbitrary distinction between the two based on your interpretation of the text
01:49:35: No, I'm going with what you're saying. I'm asking you. Okay, and that's reading the text So you read
01:49:40: Romans and then you interpreted it in such a way where it is in conflict with this concept of obedience
01:49:46: I know I quoted it. Um, and so let me ask you Yes, they are now
01:49:55: I got a question for you I got a question for you So, do you know what justification is
01:50:05: Please stop so Sapphire. Are you do you want can you define what justification is?
01:50:17: Can you? Yeah Justification is how again like like it said what what you read is how we are made right with God And it was ultimately accomplished like this like what you quoted from the word that our source
01:50:31: Okay, Christ's work on the cross So is faith
01:50:37: Faith which is an intellectual thing. Is that the same thing as doing a hundred
01:50:42: Hail Marys? This is where you and I would also disagree like faith is not
01:50:49: Inherently just an intellectual thing. It's also a real Experiential thing.
01:50:55: So it's your actual life. It's not just Intellectual pursuit or practice. It's not about Gnosis, right?
01:51:02: There was a whole set that Paul talks about those who falsely Falsely called knowledge, right?
01:51:08: So it's not a purely intellectual pursuit There's also the lived experience the lived life of Christians.
01:51:14: Well, I believe that I believe hold on Stop Great.
01:51:21: What do you silence him? Who is it? I'm just trying to understand what you could
01:51:27: Yeah, just look So Faith alone is what
01:51:37: God grants to us in this thing. God grants that we have faith Philippians 1 29 to you
01:51:43: It has been granted to believe The faith is in Jesus John 6 29.
01:51:48: This is the work of God that you believe in human descent So here's my question is the faith that God himself grants to us.
01:51:55: That's in Jesus Is that faith in of itself sufficient to justify us before God? Yeah Then if it is that means when you have faith, you're justified, right?
01:52:09: Yes, then you are justified before God by nothing you've done no works, right
01:52:17: Yes, good So you have that's the perfect quintessential example actually because You're just going based on Purely the
01:52:29: Bible, right? But you take this old scripture, right? I don't but I will grant that There is no other
01:52:35: Mention of that beef being previously associated with Christ ministry So his confession of faith is at the moment of death be right before death
01:52:45: He confesses faith in Christ he is baptized in that moment But by a faith and again, that's something that it's also held as a tradition of the church that Perspective fits into our theology.
01:53:02: So, you know, ultimately there is that justification by faith but again, you know, I think the major distinction and problem here is again, mostly
01:53:11: I'm just like a word concept fallacy and part of like how the philosophy is applied where the emphasis is so like you have this more like It's pretty cringe to gain it.
01:53:22: Oh You're just you're just you're going on and on to get on again Okay, so we're talking about justification so You said we're justified when we have faith
01:53:35: Right. Is that correct? Yes. Okay.
01:53:41: Are we just by means are all of our sins forgiven at that point? when we believe
01:53:50: No So, okay, so Repentance Repentance must come first before faith
01:54:04: No before it comes then repentance but then and then you're forgiven so you repent and then you're forgiven
01:54:11: Okay, and so why does Unrepentant sin is what it's still there
01:54:17: So Doesn't decent Orthodox teach that you're justified at your baptism
01:54:26: Yes Okay, so justification But again, we the the timing in which we do our baptism is completely different And again, we also have a practice of confession that leads into the baptism
01:54:39: So there's an entire process here that isn't necessarily consistent with every single
01:54:44: Protestant, you know Church, so so we we do formal repentance that takes place and there's also the
01:54:54: The probationary period where you join the church like you're not just immediate. Oh, I just that's what baptism.
01:55:02: Okay. Yeah So at baptism, you're justified, right? Yes, but you're already justified when you had faith before baptism, right?
01:55:12: Yeah, which is again So then If the catechumen dies as a catechumen isn't baptized
01:55:21: They are still given the full burial rites as Orthodox Christian because their death is viewed as So ultimately can there is that like I'm not
01:55:37: I'm just asking simple questions. I don't need a dissertation every time. I'm just asking simple stuff
01:55:43: I'm trying to get to a point You said we're bad to justify when we get baptized. You said we're justified when we believe so therefore you're justified twice so what was your issue with like the
01:55:57: Multiplicity they justified throughout your life. I'm just asking I just asked are you saying?
01:56:03: Yeah, we're justified twice Okay, and that's not like a hard two times. There's like you're again.
01:56:08: Okay, just read from the source So it's a lifelong process Okay, so justification is a lifelong process
01:56:17: Yeah, are you justified right now? Yeah So if you were to die right now, where would you go?
01:56:33: Believer Participating in the church. I mean, I'm doing what I'm supposed to do, right? You say no words.
01:56:40: Okay, like you do what do you do? If not believe like what it what is your how does your faith manifest because again like When you read the text in your interpretation you invite contradiction a hard contradiction between your understanding of justification through faith alone and What is explicitly written in James 2 so in James 2?
01:57:04: Verse 14 it says what is what good is it my brothers if someone says he has faith, but does not have works
01:57:11: Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food
01:57:18: And one of you says to them go in peace and be warm and fill without giving them the things needed for the body
01:57:25: What good is that? So also faith itself if it does not have works is dead
01:57:30: So you have to you have to reconcile this this hard right that you have drawn arbitrarily
01:57:37: Let me correct you let me correct you on your heretical view of James chapter 2
01:57:44: Well what you said I listen to me you said I drew an arbitrary line What you did was you skipped the verses and you skipped the stuff that was in there in order to make it fit what you?
01:57:55: Wanted you just you've just graced the Word of God. You did not do what the Word of God said.
01:58:00: Listen to me. Hold on I Listened to you, and I know
01:58:12: I know James 2 14 through 24 Very well And I was listening waiting and you skip stuff and then you went down and you put stuff together
01:58:22: You took things out of their context and you drove something together that does not belong together To make it say what you wanted to say and you skip the issue of verse 18
01:58:31: Which says I'll show you my faith you show me your faith And he says James 2 19 the devil or the demons believe also that's the kind of faith.
01:58:39: He's talking about It's not real faith. You skip that whole thing You skipped it and that's wrong for you to do
01:58:45: Now I've asked you specific questions and stuff and and you're giving me contradictions So you tell me that you're justified at one point then you're justified again later
01:58:55: Which means then that you've lost your salvation in between is that correct that between these two different justifications?
01:59:01: You're no longer saved and get justified again, is that correct? Disagree I thought no.
01:59:11: Hold on. I fundamentally disagree with your characterization of what happened there. I didn't skip anything You should just stop before it
01:59:17: So again, you you're doing this browbeating you talking about how I'm going on But you want to occupy your time with insults and call me a heretic
01:59:25: But by what standard in my heritage because you you are is it your standard what what external
01:59:32: Body, am I being heretical against? Hold on. Hold on. I may need to be corrected here for one second
01:59:38: Did you stop at saying so faith that happens have no worse than it's dead, right? That's where you stop quoting
01:59:45: Yes, okay Okay Okay, okay
01:59:52: I Said okay, I know Don't believe
01:59:57: I said now I need to apologize to you because I thought you would skip something. We'll do something else Okay, so my apologies for that.
02:00:04: Okay Okay now, all right, so How can you be justified multiple times?
02:00:24: Yeah, we can do that with Paul what James is talking about there in James chapter 2 is what's called the difference between essential and fiduciary
02:00:32: Essential is mental ascent to a proposition or an idea. That's what James 2 19 is talking about You believe that God is one you get didn't believe these also
02:00:42: But what he's talking about here is the horizontal faith between individuals. You show me your faith.
02:00:48: I'll show you my faith That's verse 18. He's showing what's going on between individuals. That's how we know We have each other faith by or that you're true believers by the works
02:00:56: That's why he says Abraham was justified by works when he offered up Isaac. It's not just the king before God It's just a vacation before people.
02:01:03: This is not the vertical. This is the horizontal here That's what James is talking about a true believer is going to have true works because he's also regenerate along with that true faith and the
02:01:12: Regeneration that works that God brings to us first Peter 1 3 were causing born again Not of our own will
02:01:18: John 1 13 or made new creatures 2nd Corinthians 5 17 because of that we then do good works because we're changed in our hearts in our minds
02:01:26: But God grants us the faith and he causes us to be born again And he grants that we have repentance 2nd
02:01:31: Timothy 2 25 So it's all God's work But the reason that James is talking about what he's doing is because he's showing faith to one another on the horizontal between people
02:01:41: That's how Abraham was justified as a context but not before God I Agree that he grants it but in our perspective the way that he grants it is
02:01:57: By his grace and but there's also a synergy. So there's a participatory Element in us being made in his image.
02:02:04: So we do have free will Do you disagree on that point or? We believe free free will we believe we have free will that's another topic
02:02:14: So we're talking Relevant to the to the fundamental elements of this theology is because we have actual free will in the
02:02:25: Eastern Orthodox believe that like There is a participation on by the human agent in the energies of God so that again
02:02:32: He died great that he did he does give all these things the faith the love all this stuff Does the salvation all of it is really given?
02:02:41: Is achieved by faith It is Can you define can you define free will?
02:02:48: I'm sorry, but would define free will Sapphire, okay Free will is inherent with us
02:02:57: Also having spirit. So it is It's in line. It's in line with the new month.
02:03:03: So being a having capacity for real choice Having a will and a desire and an ability to happen
02:03:12: What do you need to die? Okay, hold on. Hold on. I'm sorry. Yeah, you just die
02:03:19: Dude Trying to have a conversation with there you guys are not helping you do not help
02:03:26: All right, so decision will and desire. Okay, that's that's what free will is, right?
02:03:35: Yes Yes, okay. Would you agree that you can't choose to do something that you can't desire?
02:03:48: If you can't desire something you can't choose it, right? right
02:03:56: Hello You can't desire something
02:04:03: You're not aware of you can't choose something. You're not aware of right? Sure.
02:04:11: So if the Bible says the unbeliever does not Understand or receive the things of God for their foolishness to him first good is 214 that he does not seek for God There's no good
02:04:22: Romans 3 10 11 and 12. He's a slave of sin Romans 6 14 through 20 that he's
02:04:29: He's born He's a nate by nature child of wrath Ephesians 2 3 that is harsh desperately wicked and deceitful
02:04:37: Jeremiah 17 9 then doesn't that mean then that his free will choices must be restricted to what the
02:04:43: Bible Describes his abilities and disabilities as being according to his nature which affects his desires
02:04:50: No, uh because um Again, they're still we are still made in the image of God.
02:04:56: So there is not like it's not like an inherently bad nature We have an inherently good one and that it is ultimately barred by that So so the participation in sin, it's like evidence of what our free will be free
02:05:09: So when the Bible so we also like it says again, like it Start just uh, just finish that point.
02:05:16: Um to respond to You to your verses about like from Romans and talking about Being unable the the carnal mind is in internal enmity with God is unable to keep his law, right?
02:05:29: Um We have to reconcile that with not only being made in God's image But having that love that predates the the sin having asked us to so like it's not
02:05:41: God loved us when we were yet sinners. So like, you know, I Hope I'm Know when the
02:05:50: Bible says the unbelievers a hater of God doesn't seek for God can do no good does not understand spiritual things
02:05:56: Then how does he just believe in God? Well, but again, he also has the conscience which is set against him as a witness.
02:06:02: So right so he it's not that he has like an innate lack of knowledge of God Is that he is a willful?
02:06:11: He has a willful ignorance of God, right? The Gentiles Know the
02:06:16: Bible says the unbelievers a hater of God does not seek for God Cannot receive spiritual things is full of evil by nature a child of wrath.
02:06:26: He's a slave of sin How does someone who's a slave of sin hater of God does no good doesn't seek for God cannot understand spiritual things
02:06:36: How does he then choose God freely of his own free will? When it comes to repentance, it's like the product of the
02:06:44: Son. So he sees That's right, let's try this again.
02:06:53: He cannot understand the things of God he does not seek for God There's no room.
02:06:59: There's no repentance there. He does not seek for God. He does not understand the things of God He's full of evil.
02:07:05: He's a slave of sin So I say these things and you dismiss them and say oh you can repent but yes
02:07:12: You're not listening. The Bible says these things. How does he do it? If that's what the
02:07:17: Bible is saying about him? Wow, okay, you're not
02:07:26: I don't think your theological perspective is broad enough to understand the concept of the depravity of man
02:07:33: I don't think you have a good understanding Calvinist precept
02:07:39: I Well, if that's what Calvinism is So then and again, well, don't get mad like I've got the questions to ask on like two different occasions as far as like You know where you're affiliated and and what standards that you try to apply
02:07:53: So like when you say like you use words like a radical How do you apply that term without having an external body to judge?
02:08:01: So like are you the arbiter? That determines heretical or not like no when you say heretical, what are you referencing?
02:08:10: a lot of what your your church teaches but You said a bunch of stuff so I quoted you scripture earlier and you called it
02:08:21: Calvinistic Interesting that when I quote God's Word when I quote
02:08:26: God's Word you say oh, that's Calvinism. So you're saying Calvinism The Bible teaches
02:08:32: Calvinism No, you said total depravity. So I said that Calvinist precept.
02:08:39: Yeah, I told the property is I didn't disagree with the quotations Interpretation of the quotation.
02:08:45: I didn't interpret them. You see I said The Bible says this is what I did
02:08:50: The Bible says the man is a slave of sin a hater of God who does no good
02:08:56: He's full of evil by nature child of wrath and cannot receive spiritual things How does such a man simply believe in the gospel on his own?
02:09:06: That's not interpretation. I literally was quoting what different verses Okay, you're not answering the question
02:09:15: Okay, no, he doesn't no he doesn't because you know here I'll show you something there Sure, it's part of the healing.
02:09:22: No, I'll show you grace because God's calling people eternal and I'll show you something Jesus says you cannot come to me unless it's granted to you from the
02:09:32: Father John 6 65 So can you come to Christ on your own?
02:09:40: Well, yeah, it's not Didn't ask that. Can you come to Christ on your own?
02:09:46: It's one question. No, no Jesus says
02:09:51: Jesus says you cannot come to me unless the Father grants it to you Do you agree that the
02:09:57: Father has to grant that you come to Christ? So you agree with what it says
02:10:08: Okay, so I agree also that what it says is you cannot come to me unless it's been granted you from the
02:10:15: Father So I believe you cannot come to Christ unless God grants that you come to Christ Okay, so that would be consistent with the scriptures that teach the heart is wicked deceitful doesn't seek for God doesn't understand
02:10:32: Natural man cannot receive the things of God is by nature child of wrath. He's a slave of sin So if that's the case that it has to be the case that God grants that you come to Christ, right?
02:10:42: Say again, there's no there's no accountability there. How do you have accountability again? You're talking about you're fundamentally unpacking
02:10:50: Actual free will that's what you're doing. No, I'm asking one thing at a time. You're not listening to the one thing
02:10:56: You're jumping all over the place. I know about culpability and I can talk about efficient and and Proximate causations that relates the responsibility and I can talk about that regeneration preceding faith logically and all this stuff get into all that I'm just asking very simple question, which you admit our
02:11:11: Calvinist precepts, right? No The Calvinist don't believe what you're saying, no, it's not a
02:11:19: Calvinist priest up. It's biblical Okay, and we we call Calvin on that like you it's
02:11:26: Calvinism, right? Yeah Calvinism is very biblical Yes, it happens to work that way. Yep And so what
02:11:33: I'm saying to you Just understand like your resistance also like I've also this would be my fourth time asking you like what value like are you a
02:11:40: Part of but you didn't say like the body of Christ, right? But like what church what like what what church is the correct one and don't give me like the dark
02:11:48: Dawkins Find a biblical church because obviously you and I disagree on like how to read the Bible, unfortunately
02:11:54: So like if I'm if I need to be converted out of this heresy of orthodoxy
02:11:59: Where do I go because obviously you can't rely on just my reading the Bible that you
02:12:04: I'm reading my Bible and I still disagree So like what external but do
02:12:11: I go to to verify if I'm reading it, right? What you do it?
02:12:17: What you do is you turn to Jesus? Jesus said come to me all who are heavy laden and I will give you rest
02:12:25: Matthew 11 28 Jesus Jesus said ask me anything in my name and I will do it
02:12:32: John 14 14 Jesus has all authority in heaven and earth. That's what he said Matthew 28 18
02:12:38: Jesus forgives sins because he has all authority and all judgment is passed over to the Son John 5 20 to 23
02:12:45: So we know that that's the case So if you were to ask you what to do you ask Jesus you turn to Jesus you go to Jesus And if you believe the scriptures,
02:12:55: I'm gonna read to you 1st John 2 27 As for you the anointing which you received abides in From him abides in you you have no need for anyone to teach you
02:13:07: But as his anointing teaches you about all things he is true and not a lie Just as it has taught you you abide in him.
02:13:13: You can actually read the Bible and understand it on your own Let's think about this
02:13:18: Think about this. We're made Specifically like so the inherent claim here is that I Don't understand my
02:13:29: Bible as of yet. So like the years that I've also been investing in the state I'm also an
02:13:36: Pastor the same qualifications you listed earlier to ADJ when he was when he was challenging you about being an elder
02:13:42: I have the same I'm an ex -pastor Where I left Protestantism and Western theology and moved to Eastern theology
02:13:49: So I had to put down a lot of learned stuff So like again, you know,
02:13:56: I have an experience that predates this and I also have Documentation paperwork the state recognized my ministry like I can tie it back to external things
02:14:06: But you and I know that none of that's valid without like it's a movement of the Holy Spirit Like there is an inherent metaphysical element
02:14:14: But the problem is with that math like when you say go to Jesus, how do I verify that outside of myself?
02:14:23: Like because I can go to Jesus all day long But if Jesus tells me something different than he tells you then there's a problem
02:14:30: We have two different Jesus's or Jesus is playing favorites So like what is what is going on?
02:14:37: How do you reconcile it? If I can read my Bible and you the reasonable capacity to do so and By doing that I arrive at orthodoxy after Being a person
02:14:51: Then like you know, I'm just getting it wrong. Yes. How do you know? I know you're getting it wrong because you contradict scripture
02:15:00: No, you invite contradictions into scripture, no, I don't by saying Well you you again you drew
02:15:07: Faith and works so far and then went back and reconciled it so far. I've only done this a thousand times
02:15:14: I know what I'm talking about. I know the definitions. I'm not inviting any contradiction. I'm exposing your contradiction Which is why
02:15:19: I'm asking you certain questions, which is why I said you justified how many times once twice three times four times? Justifications an event that occurs by faith and then you say it also occurs by the works that you do
02:15:30: But if it's by faith, it's not by work because Romans 4 or 5 says to the one who does not work But believes and he who justifies the ungodly there's justification by faith alone
02:15:39: I'm trying to show you this stuff. You don't understand God's Word. You don't you know, I don't believe you ever did
02:15:45: That's why you're a snort of God's person. I don't know You do not understand
02:15:50: God's Word it's clear you don't understand what God is really taking hold on you talked a whole bunch
02:16:01: Not just lampooning you and saying that you don't understand the XY and Z Yeah, I've been having an entertaining conversation.
02:16:07: So if you want to maintain that area of it, that's fine But like let's please not like invite tension in the conversation.
02:16:15: I'm talking about then didn't be polite When I ask you for an authoritative standard and you give me one that isn't actually authoritative you say go to Jesus But then you tell me
02:16:26: I got it wrong So I met the wrong Jesus and by what standard that's what I'm asking you.
02:16:32: How do you confirm? My I say something Don't hold on Sapphire Sapphire.
02:16:41: Um Sapphire I pointed you to Jesus I Pointed you to Scripture and you resisted the idea of going to Christ Jesus said
02:16:54: Yeah, yes you are because I Jeez you are so rude
02:17:05: You're constant You say I'm the one who's you know, making it difficult, but you are the one who's doing this constantly so look
02:17:14: I I Just shut up. Whoever that was just keep out of it
02:17:20: Yeah, Lee so look I point you to Christ you say how do you know that you go to Jesus Yeah, I told you where Jesus says come to me.
02:17:30: Yeah Don't Because we disagree like what is the standard, you know, you know, you're denying.
02:17:43: Hey Sapphire Can you shut up for a second? Holly come on. I'm running out of patience.
02:17:49: Can you be quiet? Look man,
02:17:57: I Mean seriously, I want to have a dialogue with you But you just jump off at the deep in the deep end and you just go and you go when you go
02:18:06: Yeah, what is wrong with you Sapphire that you can't have a normal conversation Just the evil of Satan working through people in the room, that's all that's happening there.
02:18:25: So look Sapphire I'm trying to have a conversation with you But I I told you, you know go to Jesus and you resist that.
02:18:34: Yeah. I already have I think a different ever did Well, wait a minute. Let's talk about it. You don't even want to do that You see
02:18:40: I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that Jesus here's what I want to ask you if you go to Jesus and ask him to forgive you of all of your sins because I'm trying to get this point to You but you keep interrupting
02:18:53: Jesus says come to me. Jesus says ask me anything in my name and I would do it Here's a question for just a simple question
02:19:01: If you were to go to Jesus and if you were to ask him to forgive you of all of your sins
02:19:07: Would he do that? That's my question. Go ahead I've already acknowledged
02:19:21: The experiential nature of my faith of Christ. I'm a reference at the very beginning. I talked about the synergetic
02:19:29: Experience So like when when when you say go to Jesus I agree on a superficial level with the words
02:19:38: Go to Jesus. The problem is in what you mean by that and When I ask for You know
02:19:49: Clarification I get the one -sided mute button because the only people that disagree with Matt are getting the mute button
02:19:55: And again, I don't get people there. I'm not even counting the hecklers from the PMO So I'm going to mute you here.
02:20:02: You're being muted purely for over -talking. Okay, and you're muted right now as a point of moderation
02:20:08: If we don't need to complain about the metamuting, it's obvious to all of the minds in the room We've been letting you go because Matt seems to be patient, but he's losing his patience and that's the reason you're being muted
02:20:18: It's not to create a one -sided debate So, please refrain from complaining about this meta about the mute and just address
02:20:25: Matt's point. Okay. Sure. Also, uh, you know There is the little side jobs that go in after the meeting too,
02:20:32: Herman Nudix So I just uh Complaining and responsibly. I mean,
02:20:38: I'm sorry Ronnie This is like the only negative experience I've had here bro, like, you know that it's been nothing but like good
02:20:45: Positive back and forth with me. I've not been a problem person So like well usually also don't talk over like, you know people and you seem like I don't know
02:20:55: Emotionally involved when it's not talking over him. So because I'm challenging I'm challenging him now
02:21:01: I don't have a problem with the challenge. I agree with the coming to Jesus My problem is is that when when
02:21:08: I talk about verifying a Personal experience. I'm not doing it for my sake, right?
02:21:16: Me and me and my relationship with Jesus is me and my relationship with Jesus You I don't have to verify that And you don't have to verify your relationship with me
02:21:25: All I'm saying is is that how do you do that? Because if you ask me the same question,
02:21:31: I could help I pointed other external sources But when you say go to Jesus That literally mean that there are people who believe that sentiment and have wildly different Beliefs about what it means.
02:21:45: So so what like when I disagree you can interpretation Take a breath disagree with your what
02:21:51: I disagree with your interpretation You tell me that I'm heretic that I had a genuine experience with Christ I must
02:21:59: I must have gotten it wrong and I'm asking you according to what standard and you hit me with the cyclical go to Jesus Okay, look
02:22:08: I asked you a question. Okay If you were to go to Jesus and ask him if you were to pray to Jesus and ask him to forgive you of all of your sins
02:22:18: Will he forgive you of all of your sins? Yes Yes, that is that is
02:22:28: Yes, so That is literally so the answer is yes So, okay good.
02:22:35: So do you need a priesthood then in your church? Yes, the priesthood was established by Christ Do you need a priesthood in order for your sins to be forgiven if you can go straight to Jesus?
02:22:50: Yes But why would you go to a priest when you can go to God? because the priest is
02:22:59: Just like Paul said Imitate me as I imitate Christ Jesus We look at them like there's no there's no problem with having elders in the faith
02:23:09: There's no problem with having a relationship that is reminiscent of your relationship with God. That's normative and good
02:23:15: That's what the point of churches Jesus said come to me. Did Jesus say go to a priest? We believe in the real presence of God in the church and see that again
02:23:24: That's the other part of it. Is that like okay. I didn't ask that Christ is there. I'm going to Christ every
02:23:30: Sunday I didn't ask that I said Jesus said come to me. Okay, I asked you about praying said pray to me ask me
02:23:36: That's what it means you go to Jesus. You're talking to him You're asking him and you I asked you if you asked you just forgive you of all of your sins
02:23:43: Willie Yes, if they're already forgiven then do you have to go to a priest to get them forgiven again?
02:23:51: The priest is an administrative member. I didn't ask that the church. I didn't ask that listen to the question
02:23:57: Do you have to go and get them forgiven again? It's part of the mechanism.
02:24:06: Okay, so here's a question if you go to Jesus and he forgives If you go to Jesus and he forgives you of all of your sins
02:24:15: Then how can you go and get all those sins forgiven again if they're already forgiven when you say go to Jesus?
02:24:23: What it means to go to Jesus is to go to the church where Christ is
02:24:28: Jesus said ask me ask me. Yes anything So when you ask
02:24:34: Jesus you talk to Jesus Jesus, would you please forgive me of all of my sins? You mean it?
02:24:40: Okay, and you're sincere. Okay, you mean it? Will he forgive you of all of your sins? You said yes
02:24:45: Okay, that means all of your sins are now forgiven. How can you then go again to get them forgiven if they're already all forgiven?
02:24:53: so again, it's your The problem is on how you're understanding What I'm saying versus you know
02:25:00: The words that we're using here when you say go to Jesus what that means in the Orthodox context is go to the church
02:25:07: Christ is at the church. I said pray to Jesus pray to Jesus Jesus says
02:25:13: John 14 Jesus asked me anything in my name in Jesus name.
02:25:19: I've come to you Lord Jesus in your name your authority I'm coming to you and I'm asking you forgive me of all of my sins
02:25:24: I already asked you that if you pray to Jesus you said yes That means praying to doesn't mean going to a church if he's praying to Jesus and all your sins are forgiven
02:25:32: You already said yes. So my question is if they're already forgiven, how can you get them forgiven again? It's called this it's called a cognitive dissonance this is what's happening you all you've already stated it's already forgiven
02:25:51: It's like this. It's like someone I owe a restaurant a bill a hundred bucks. They They know that I'm honest guy they say come back tomorrow pay the debt
02:26:02: I go I do that Okay, I go pay the debt. It's paid. It's done. It's forgiven right done.
02:26:09: No, not even there anymore I can't go again and pay because it's already done See if you've gone if you've gone to Jesus and you've asked him to forgive you of all of your sins
02:26:20: Then they're all forgiven There won't be anything left to be forgiven Because it's already done
02:26:28: Why would you disregard Christ's forgiveness by going to a priest?
02:26:34: I'm not yes, you are. Yeah with Go ahead let somebody tackle her for well
02:26:44: This I mean time because this is so obvious the inconsistency in the just the disconnect you have with logic
02:26:50: You can't What you're doing, yeah, oh, yeah what you're doing absolutely bullcrapping around.
02:26:59: Absolutely. You don't answer a direct question You don't know how to put two and two together You're not understanding the logic if Jesus has forgiven you of all of your sins, then they're forgiven
02:27:08: You can't go get them forgiven again because they're already forgiven simple logic your religion and your faith
02:27:16: Causes you to not think critically to not think logically to not think truthfully now What you're doing is you're having
02:27:21: Jesus forgive you of all of your sins. Then you go get him forgiven again. How's that work? Why is it Jesus work is not enough?
02:27:32: So go ahead and try and answer it because you sin throughout your life
02:27:39: Well, they go to Jesus each time We do. Oh So you ask
02:27:44: Jesus to forgive you Yes, then you don't need your priest do you forgive each other
02:27:53: If you vote if you go to Jesus and you ask Jesus to forgive you you don't need a priest over there to forgive you
02:27:59: Because Jesus has already done it But remember what I told the apostles, right
02:28:04: I asked you about the priest in regards to binding and There's no distinction in the
02:28:13: Orthodox understanding again that you know that the apostles were priests. So what's what's the problem?
02:28:18: No, they weren't priests again, like you're That's your understanding of it
02:28:25: We have we have held them to be priests the entirety of the Orthodox Church history So like you disagree with that and that's fine.
02:28:31: You call it unbiblical and that's fine But I'm just trying to demonstrate that that's your personal interpretation.
02:28:37: You got that, right? You got that, right? Yeah, because Jesus is our high priest.
02:28:43: There's no other high priest. We don't need any high priest anybody who has a priest They're under there.
02:28:49: Exactly. No, there's only one high priest. We only need Jesus and religion and Religiously speaking when groups have priests it's because the church is now in control of your salvation
02:29:00: Because now the church is taking the place of Christ Well, they revere Christ in word what they do is they take his place and they say look you want forgiveness
02:29:10: You got to go to the church. You want truth? You got to go to the church. You want to have forgiveness? You got to go to the church.
02:29:15: It's priesthood. It's authority. It's sacraments. It's work That's where you go and get all this stuff.
02:29:21: The church has your church has replaced Jesus because Jesus has come to me He didn't say go to the church for forgiveness.
02:29:28: He didn't say go to a priest for forgiveness He didn't say to go anybody else other than him. He didn't say to do that.
02:29:33: That's what he did. So you Excuse me, excuse me
02:29:40: You're disrespecting You're disrespecting the Lord Jesus Christ because Jesus pointed to himself and I'm telling you that and then you say it's a tirade
02:29:50: So apparently you don't like the Word of God and you don't like it when someone uses the Word of God truthfully and accurately
02:29:56: Against you and you have to keep talking You're the one who steamrolls because you've gone on and on and on and on and on You make on on on so many times and I've listened to you
02:30:11: I start to repeat Church is the body of Christ, correct? the body of believers
02:30:18: In the body of Christ, right is the church the body of Christ? Yeah, the body of Christ the true believers. Yes The hand separate from the body
02:30:29: That's a fallacy of conflation No, the heads part of the body
02:30:36: So when you go to the body, you're going where you're going to the body.
02:30:42: You're going where? Yeah, oh what what are you serious so why not going to the elbow?
02:30:54: Oh There's the hand say I have no need of the foot. What do you think? What you doing?
02:31:01: Pieces of the body up. Can you make it up? Could you try and make some sense? Go ahead make some sense out of it
02:31:06: Yeah, somebody again Matt like Christ is the head of the church. Yeah The body is the church of the body is the body price.
02:31:15: Yeah, the head is indivisible from the body So when you go to the body you arrive at what? the the arms and The feet and a femur
02:31:27: I Get your being facetious, but you know, the ultimate answer is the head. No, you didn't say, you know
02:31:35: Because what you're doing is you're saying Yeah, it's a mix exactly it's a metaphor you're the one playing the game with a metaphor
02:31:53: So if you go to the church Are you saying do you go into Martha down the street who happens to go to your church and you go to her and you?
02:32:02: ask her for forgiveness We do yeah, we do Okay, so forgive each other's forgive each other's sins, right where's this pay that Matthew 6
02:32:19: Matthew 6 12 Matthew 6 you want to go there forget, you know Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors.
02:32:25: We forgive one another done You go to Galatians 6 to bear one of these birds Yeah, I know
02:32:33: I know the scriptures I know I'm trying to show you something trying to show you something that you are replacing
02:32:39: Jesus with your church You're an ecclesiologist You are replacing the church your organization your particular organization that you say now is the church your
02:32:57: Organization with its priests with its bishops with its buildings with its rituals with its sacraments
02:33:03: You're saying that's the true church. We are in the true church Mormons say the same thing the
02:33:10: Jehovah's Witnesses say the same thing There's cults all over the place that say we have the true church and what they mean by the church
02:33:17: What you are heritage what what they mean what they mean
02:33:22: What What they mean by the church What they mean by the church what they mean by the church is their particular
02:33:33: Organizational structure that they say that retains the authority of God through their system and through their leadership
02:33:40: That's what the cults teach You're saying the same thing. They all do the same thing put themselves in place of Jesus.
02:33:49: Notice what I've done I've said ask Jesus to forgive you What if you have faith in Christ?
02:33:54: Are you justified? I've been pointing you to Jesus all the time And you have not
02:34:02: And you have not you have not you're not listening I have the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks
02:34:08: I'm the one who had to lift up Christ to you and ask you about Jesus when you're in a corner
02:34:14: Then you ask the questions But when you're free to speak you talk about the authority of your church and your priesthood and everything else that your church provides
02:34:23: Your heart is full of your church And it certainly doesn't seem to be that crisis is the one who's primary in your heart because you talk about your church so much not
02:34:33: Jesus Again, I've led with all of that and you talked about justification
02:34:39: And what was the primary thing that both me and the source that you reference pointed to Christ on the cross?
02:34:45: So when you when you say that you're not being honest when you talk about that. I don't know don't say my You said
02:34:52: I haven't put precedent on Christ that I've been putting the church in place, but that's not the case I didn't say that so again the church is
02:34:58: Christ. I Christ is the head of the church you you have drawn arbitrary extensions
02:35:04: And you've made claims that I don't even believe in and you snuck them in under the cover of actually having allies amongst this group
02:35:10: And that's fine the man. I know you know you're taking advantage of What Okay, don't read my mind.
02:35:17: You don't know what I'm doing or thinking sure okay, so we're done with that now But let's go back
02:35:23: Let's go back to again how I answered the affirmative to everything you asked you asked are we justified by faith?
02:35:28: And I said yes when I brought up works I brought it in concert with James chapter 2 which reconciles faith and works and doesn't distinguish them
02:35:36: It doesn't draw an arbitrary line between the two it shows that again The works are the theme of the faith that the the works are proof that the faith is the active
02:35:45: There you go, so when I asked you if the faithful are obedient What I meant and that of course what it means you know because it talks about the law in the in the preceding verses
02:35:57: So it's inherently about obedience in the entire So I've answered before and who are we being obedient to I've mentioned
02:36:07: Christ multiple times throughout this conversation and and the only time that I asked for a second
02:36:14: Secular or a separate authority is that when I'm talking about verification because even the
02:36:20: Bible itself talks about multiple witnesses The apostles had their ministries in twos
02:36:28: They went out and attested to what they witnessed in pairs They also had disciples so like it's fine if you don't believe in the validity of the
02:36:40: Authority for the apostolic succession, but can you vote can you acknowledge that it exists that there is an
02:36:47: Apostolic succession know that these people taught these people no Well, then how does that the church spread like how does the
02:36:55: Bible even form without some sort of succession for at least 300 years?
02:37:00: Because the Bible didn't exist in the current form it had to be ratified by a separate body
02:37:07: That's not true Okay tell you what
02:37:13: I need to use the restroom go ahead Fred jump in for a while have some fun I need you right and no
02:37:20: I just wanted to ask When did you when did you convert to Eastern Orthodoxy?
02:37:27: I've been Eastern Orthodox for a year for a year How long over a year
02:37:42: So I've noticed I've noticed I've noticed an increase of Protestants Converting to Rome to Eastern Orthodoxy, and I knew that was gonna be the answer because even in the private chat here
02:37:54: I said I guarantee this guy's been Been a convert for a year and Charlie can verify
02:38:02: I said that But what's interesting to me is I see a lot of Protestants that are leaving
02:38:08: Protestantism, and they're going to Eastern Orthodoxy and but what I find interesting is that The kind of Eastern Orthodoxy that they end up advocating for isn't really
02:38:18: Eastern Orthodoxy in my perspective So for example earlier you were you were you were arguing with Matt about Ultimate authorities and stuff like this and you were you were essentially trying to use presuppositionalism as a way to Against Matt Slick and you were saying well by what standard by what authority right?
02:38:38: That's a Western philosophy And not only is a Western philosophy But as a Western Protestant philosophy that Western converts to Eastern Orthodoxy are adopting thinking
02:38:49: This is a consistent methodology for Epistemology, I think I find that interesting. I wonder what your thoughts are on that I mean again like Darth Dawkins has got like an issue with like the use of like certain like Greek terms and phrases that have been lifted out of like the classical thinkers and like again with Eastern Orthodoxy There isn't this issue of like, you know a hard -off to these terms being used.
02:39:18: It's just about how they're applied So like that's why I was saying about like questions Because ultimately like it isn't it doesn't matter what you use like a specific tool to accomplish a job
02:39:30: So like so even though even though the tool you're using is Calvinist Do what
02:39:37: I? Said even though the tool you're using is reformed right the tool you're using is
02:39:43: Calvinistic. It comes straight from Calvin Yeah, but but what you're what you're professing is
02:39:49: As an Eastern philosophy, but your epistemology is actually not only a Western philosophy
02:39:54: It is Western but it's even more than Western it is Calvinian and I find that interesting
02:40:01: Well, that's why I was identifying But you believe in the
02:40:07: Calvinist precepts now again, I don't believe in their final conclusions
02:40:14: I don't believe because again, I don't believe in the rejection of free will But that's just you being inconsistent
02:40:23: It's not it's not inconsistent because again, I'm trying to expound so so the view
02:40:31: Richard Muller is No Richard Muller's Richard Muller's probably the leading
02:40:40: Scholar on the Reformation and specifically on Calvin himself and if you read
02:40:45: Richard Muller's Work called post -reformation reform dogmatics. He makes the statement that the root of the
02:40:53: Protestant Reformation Wasn't Sola Fie or even Sola Scriptura, but that the root was actually epistemology
02:41:01: It was a it was the rejection of Thomism it was the rejection of this idea that man has fallen but in some way his reason is still intact and Calvin and the boys argued essentially that that since it's the case that the totality of man has fallen right since since man's fallen not just in his will but also in his reason that God must first step in and regenerate man and That's that's how
02:41:26: Van Til actually develops presuppositionalism is by going back to Calvin and seeing this epistemological root
02:41:32: That's how presuppositionalism is developed and it's interesting. You're actually using the fruit of Calvinism But but rejecting it and I just I don't know if you saw that inconsistency
02:41:43: Sorry, I got a different Now I just want to say that I think that's really interesting because I know people like dark dog is obviously use the presub method and the way they describe it,
02:41:54: I think I think myself wouldn't that also apply to like predestination and like grace because like if we're going to talk about like man's sovereignty man cannot get to God without Like they dark and other people try to say that Using like natural theology makes man like sovereign like it makes man kind of his own
02:42:16: God, right? So I think that like wouldn't that also apply to like free will and issues like that.
02:42:21: I think that's Anyway Is all these all these all these um
02:42:29: Eastern Orthodox guys all the ortho bros online They're all new converts to Eastern Orthodoxy and I think it's a bad theology at this point
02:42:37: It's just a bad away from quote -unquote Protestantism But I don't think these people actually understand what what
02:42:44: Protestantism is because there's there even though they're rejecting Calvinism they're rejecting Protestantism.
02:42:50: They're still thinking like Westerners and they're still thinking like reformers and it's interesting Because it's blatantly inconsistent.
02:42:56: I just want to get your perspective on it Good point No, but it's a method that's a method that could only be developed with any
02:43:06: Calvinian framework, that's the point Let me let me read to you Richard Moller Man, you know,
02:43:20: I just want to point out I believe it's you know Kind of poison in the well to talk about you know Like how long that I've been in Eastern Orthodoxy because I actually you know
02:43:28: It's because it shows that it shows that this is a fad theology Again it's the poison of the well like it's a it's an inherent passive Like you're you're just out of hand passing it passing it out.
02:43:44: Like, you know It's not a coincidence that I knew you were a recent convert it's not a coincidence
02:43:52: I knew you were Here let me read something to you because I because you're not you you this is the this is the methodology you use
02:44:00: You're sitting here trying to argue with slick about oh, well, you know, where should
02:44:05: I go? What standard by what authority? These are all reformed ideas. So this is what Richard Moller says about the nature of the
02:44:12: Reformation this is in post -reformation reformed on mags volume 1
02:44:19: Page 108 he says this these early reformed statements concerning theological
02:44:25: Presuppositions focus virtually without exception on the problem of the knowledge of God given the fact that only that not only of human
02:44:35: Finitude but also of human sin the critique leveled by the Reformation at medieval theological presuppositions
02:44:43: That's Thomism adding a soteriological dimension to the epistemological problem Whereas the medieval doctors
02:44:49: Had assumed that the fall affected primarily the will and its affections and not the reason the reformers assumed also the fallenness of the rational faculty a
02:45:02: General a generalized or pagan natural theology according to the Reformers was not merely limited to non saving knowledge of God it was also bound and Idolatry this view of the problem of knowledge is the single most important contribution of the early
02:45:20: Reformation of the early reformed writers to the theological prolegomena of Orthodox Protestantism Indeed it is this doctrine is this doctrinal issue that most forcibly presses the
02:45:32: Protestant scholastics Toward the modification of medieval models of theological prolegomena
02:45:38: So what he's saying there is it's this idea that the whole of man has fallen not just his will but also his reason
02:45:46: That is the root of the Protestant Reformation and that's your apologetical methodology Isn't that interesting so your apologetic methodology can only be developed within a
02:45:57: Calvinian worldview But you're not Again Reacting to mass
02:46:07: Questioning I'm talking about But you're arguing against you are you against some like a
02:46:13: Westerner and you're advocating for Eastern philosophy Yeah, so yes Presupposition is limited to the
02:46:20: West Think it's not only limited to the West it's limited to a form thought it's this
02:46:25: Calvinian Presuppositional apologetics was used in like literally say
02:46:32: Gregory Mises catechetical discourse that's in the East So, yeah, well it was it was
02:46:47: So No, I do not yeah, yeah, so You know,
02:46:58: I know you've been Orthodox for a year, right? But I think it's probably not best to try and argue the faith especially that they do like that slick
02:47:06: So I thought I could answer that Confession forgiveness. I can probably do that for you.
02:47:11: So confession to be honest. Yeah, you're not gonna call my sleep But yeah, so what do you call me? What do you call me?
02:47:19: What do you call me? He said he said you were bad. Oh, yeah, that's
02:47:26: Okay No, you know he's got his opinion he thinks
02:47:32: I'm in bad faith, but I think that they're in good faith and that they're Sincerely defending what they believe is correct.
02:47:39: I believe that they're wrong in what they understand I'm not gonna say someone's doing it in bad faith as though they're disingenuous or they're trying to be deceptive
02:47:47: I don't believe any like like Sapphire. I don't believe Sapphire is intending to be deceptive in any way
02:47:53: I don't believe that he's trying to be disingenuous in any way I think he believes it. I wouldn't say that he's an arguing in bad faith because that's me saying
02:48:01: I know the person's heart I'm not saying that I think he's wrong Okay, that's the issue.
02:48:07: All right, so I need to go in seven minutes at the bottom of the hour just let you guys know
02:48:14: The reason that you see I think the reason you're seeing all these
02:48:22: Talking to once hold on. Okay, go ahead spread the reason that you're seeing all these conversions away from Towards Eastern Orthodoxy and also towards Roman Catholicism is because we live in a culture and notice it's primarily the youth
02:48:36: It's primarily Gen Z and and earlier and younger Millennials that are converting to Eastern Orthodoxy and Protestantism right now
02:48:43: I mean and wrong Catholicism right now, and I think the reason is is because they've grown up in a society that is so woke
02:48:50: Radically liberal radically woke that's all they know and they and then and then sadly often when they go to quote -unquote
02:48:57: Protestant churches Which are usually just you know Concert halls really it's not they're not really
02:49:05: Protestant they associate that with woke ISM and they and they end up thinking Oh, well, sola scriptura has developed into all this woke
02:49:13: ISM and society and stuff So I'm gonna go and become as traditional as possible And they end up running running into the arms of Rome and into arms of Eastern Orthodoxy And it's ironic because they're running into the arms of Pope Francis Who is who is anything but traditional?
02:49:28: So I just wrote an article on that on that idea and it's it's it's not
02:49:34: We see this right now I Understand that I understand the the tendency.
02:49:39: I love traditional values I love traditional theology but I hate to tell you if you're looking for tradition and you're looking to run away from woke
02:49:46: ISM running into the arms of Rome and And also into a type of westernized
02:49:52: Eastern Orthodoxy. You're gonna find it there. You're only gonna find it in traditional Orthodox Protestantism that accepts sola scriptura as the ultimate foundation any other standard if you're if you're ultimate standard
02:50:04: It's in the church. That's a changing standard. That's a modifying standard You're only gonna find it with an objective epistemological standard, which is the scriptures.
02:50:11: The scriptures do not change. That's the last time So that's historically inaccurate right the scriptures that the canon of the scriptures were accepted long before any council
02:50:34: It's a real quick point you talk about running into the arms of Rome I'm not gonna argue the ecumenism isn't common, but you can't sit there and act like there aren't
02:50:44: Denominations that are also doing the same thing. So it's again poisoning. Well, well, no, no, but there's a difference There's a difference because because the the
02:50:51: Roman cat. Let me just let me hold up. Hold up. Hold up the Roman Catholic That's running into the arms of Francis and is at the same time mad at Francis for being a liberal
02:50:59: Oh, he's being inconsistent with his ultimate standard Me who if I go to if I find a school across in church
02:51:06: That's not living up to the standards of the scriptures I can legitimately say you are not of you are not following the objective standard.
02:51:13: You are following the scriptures. You are abandoning them Meanwhile, if I follow Francis and and and I and I fall into that liberalism
02:51:20: I'm actually following and upholding my ultimate standard. You see the difference? I hope Well, that's why well, that's why
02:51:27: Matt Slick started his own church. He became a pastor because I think
02:51:33: Matt Slick was ordained in the PCA. That's not his own church Well, it's a common experience in the
02:51:38: Protestant world you you you you want okay, so this is really the root of it, right? So what's interesting is is for the last hour and a half.
02:51:45: I sat here and listened to you talk about well Orthodoxy and all this all this this tradition Really your objection the root of your objection is that you hate you hate soul scripture
02:52:00: Again, I don't hate soul scripture. I disagree. But like again the poison in the well It's just like why do you have to frame it like this?
02:52:07: There's this hatred of soul because because I want because I'd rather deal with the heart issue here Instead of dealing with the smoke screen that you're trying to develop
02:52:15: Because it's not a hating soul scripture. I love the Bible. I read the Bible all the time again The problem is is that I'm obviously doing it
02:52:23: Incorrectly, and I'm just wondering what standard I should apply. The standard is the scriptures. The standard is the text itself
02:52:30: Me defending and the reason why it was brought up like the the Blessing about teaching and stuff like that when we're arguing philosophy
02:52:38: There's a hard line and you know when I talk about like the presuppositional stuff I use it as a philosophical point
02:52:44: So when they talk when they come to me and they ask if I have like a blessing to teach like we're talking about theology
02:52:51: Eschatology we're getting into the beat of the Scripture and stuff like that. You know, uh The reason why as a new convert
02:52:58: I shouldn't be Teaching is because I'm not adequately but the reason they can say that is because there's a hierarchy you have a
02:53:09: Gauge is biometric that tells you that you don't just pick up a Bible and say I understand it and I can demonstrate through my
02:53:20: So what's interesting so what's interesting I'm not saying that you're saying this but Functionally, this is what you're saying functionally what you're arguing is that you're a literary deconstructionist and what literally literary deconstructionism
02:53:32: Is is that you believe that every reading of a text is a misreading of a text? There is no objective reading to the scriptures in your view.
02:53:38: Is there? No, I again, I disagree. I would argue that the objective reading of the text is the
02:53:46: Conciliar method used by the church throughout the centuries that you guys reject because you need to bring it down to the level of the individual
02:53:54: No, I don't believe in the I don't believe in one. You don't understand. Dr. Sola -Scriptura. That's what you believe No one that advocates for Sola -Scriptura
02:54:01: No one that advocates for Sola -Scriptura believes that it's me and my Bible alone and we're gonna figure this thing out
02:54:07: We believe in external authorities. We just don't believe those external authorities are the ultimate and final infallible authority.
02:54:14: That's what Sola -Scriptura is right again, like You can't verify what you're talking about because there is no
02:54:24: Second witness and you say Yeah, there is So, let me ask you
02:54:30: Is there an objective is there an objective reading? Hold on y 'all talked about Joseph Smith and talked about cults believing in divine revelations
02:54:42: Yeah, you tell me to go to Jesus and when I say that I have a real living experience with Christ Y 'all reject it out of hand because I must have had the wrong one because it doesn't line up with your experience
02:54:52: No, I'm I'm saying look I'm saying that I have my ultimate standards description One at a time you gotta just pick one at a time one at a time didn't didn't
02:55:04: Joseph Smith haven't have a unverifiable personal religious experience where he encountered
02:55:09: Christ and No, he never did. He lied. He's just a flat -out liar I get it.
02:55:16: I'm not arguing for the validity of Mormonism here. What I'm saying is is that like people can claim
02:55:23: Whatever they want independently and that like even in the Bible it was never an independent operation.
02:55:28: There wasn't a single pope Which is why I can't talk about Rome and the West Are you trying to compare are you trying to compare the development of Protestant theology with the development of Latter -day
02:55:41: Saint theology? Because the if you think that Joseph Smith sat down with a Bible and said
02:55:46: I'm gonna figure this out and develop, you know I'm gonna figure out the Bible. That's not what happened. Obviously, right Joseph Smith developed his own philosophy and he imposed it onto the text
02:55:54: And we're talking about X to Jesus We're talking about the pulling pulling truth from the text and and Matt Matt needs to go
02:56:00: But I just want to make this last point. The difference is I actually believe there's an objective reading of the text
02:56:05: I actually believe that you can do X to Jesus and you can read context and you can actually Understand the truth of the text
02:56:13: I don't think I think that language actually communicates and it seems like you don't actually believe that You think that the only way to understand these texts is to have some external authority?
02:56:23: That is I would I would hope you would say That must submit under that authority, right?
02:56:31: See can you get brought Fred can you get into a discord? No, I don't
02:56:37: I'm not gonna do that Okay, you're gonna take Well, God bless
02:56:54: The scriptures are the ultimate authority and there was no counsel that That's the dogmatically defined the scriptures
02:57:04: The scriptures were organically accepted by the church very early on. You can look at the moratorium fragment look at look at the the first Clement first Clement's quoting like 13 of the
02:57:15: New Testament books already as Scripture and that's first century So know that the the can of the scriptures were accepted very early on before any church or before any council
02:57:25: Decreed anything and what's interesting is the Eastern Orthodox Church actually has a canonical list in like what the eight hundreds that accepts first and second
02:57:33: Clement and Denies revelation. So your church is is all is confused on the cannon even latent to like a thousand years
02:57:43: But anyway, I'm out guys Good stuff and I got to get going to three hours and I guess have to do but this was just you know
02:57:54: Great good stuff, right? We should keep in contact So I'm out of here guys, okay,
02:57:59: I got to shut this down and get out God bless.
02:58:05: Okay There we go, that's out and You get it