Liberty Goes After Mohammad Khan

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona, this is the Dividing Line.

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.

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Our host is Dr. James White, Director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

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This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602, or toll free across the

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United States, it's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic, here is

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James White. Good morning, good afternoon, whatever time it is where you are.

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Coming to you live this afternoon from Denver, Colorado, where I was supposed to be out riding this morning, unfortunately.

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As I sit here in my hotel room, I'm on the fifth floor, I can hear, even though I'm on the sheltered side of the hotel,

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I can hear the wind outside. It is unbelievable out there right now.

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I was hoping it would calm down for an afternoon ride, but I just looked outside and saw the light poles in the parking lots swaying back and forth.

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They record a number of 75 mile an hour gusts up and down the front range here.

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And when you're on a 20 -pound road bike, a 75 mile an hour wind is not enjoyable. So no riding today, did get one in yesterday, the

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Morgal Bismarck Run. I guess I'm close to the mecca of cycling here. It is a beautiful place when the wind is not doing 75 miles an hour.

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So anyway, we are with you at our normal time here on the dividing line, so we would encourage you to participate at whatever the number is, 877 -753 -3341, 877 -753 -3341.

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That particular number is normally plastered in front of me in the studio, but it's not at the moment, so obviously we've had it long enough that I remember it.

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So your participation today is desired. I'm here in Denver speaking at the

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Northern Ridge Baptist Church and have spoken Sunday morning and Sunday night, spoke last evening.

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This evening I'll be speaking on the subject of particular redemption. Last evening

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I covered the electing grace of God, we covered the sovereignty of God and the deadness of man and sin on Sunday.

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And then tomorrow night we will be sort of wrapping things up, we'll be wrapping up irresistible grace and the perseverance of the saints.

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And so if you happen to be in the Denver area, you would be welcome. I think the information is on the

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Northern Ridge Baptist website, and you can Google that information and come on out.

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We'll be doing a 45 -minute presentation this evening and then getting together for questions and answers afterwards if you're interested in that type of thing.

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And so that's what we're doing up here in Denver, obviously heading straight from Denver on Thursday to Tampa and to the

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Innisbrook Resort and the CRI National Conference and my debate with Robert Price.

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And so I hope you'll continue to pray for that. I was working on my presentation just a few moments ago.

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I'm not going to do a whole keynote presentation this time, I'm just going to have one section where I go over the transmission of the text of the

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New Testament in response to Dr. Price's allegation that his theory about 1

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Corinthians 15, 3 -11 being a later emendation is not refutable from the manuscript tradition.

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And so I'm going to be attempting to explain with some graphics I've put together how it is that if 1

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Corinthians was originally written without that text in it, that it would have left evidence of that had the text ever been distributed in that particular form.

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And so I just finished up the graphics for that, and I'm very excited about that debate and looking forward to seeing those of you in the

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Florida area, very, very different area than where I am right now, where you have huge mountains in the distance and things like that, whereas in Florida, you might have a huge tree in the distance, and that's about all you would see in that type of a situation.

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So 877 -753 -3341, obviously I got back from the ride yesterday and very quickly discovered the

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Christianity Today article, and those of you who have not yet seen it,

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I linked to it on my blog. This situation has simply become one of deep sadness.

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Yeah, there's a real frustration that people who claim to be one thing act in such a completely different way.

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There is a frustration at the willingness to engage in rank politics, deception, all to maintain political power and position and prestige, and it's a sad thing to observe, there's no question about it, and there is frustration at the people who should know better.

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But it really is just simply sad to me to read through this

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Christianity Today article. I do not know Mr. Kennedy, we only spoke briefly on the phone.

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He just asked a few questions, there was no basis for me to have any knowledge really of who he is or what he's about or anything like that.

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It is very hard for me to avoid the consideration that Liberty University is a large source of advertising budget for certain

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Christian media outlets, because the whole form of the article was clearly not done in an unbiased fashion.

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The idea that this is just some bloggers trying to create problems in light of documentation, documentation that's never even discussed, linked to anything like that, and the fact that statements were made especially by Elmer Townes that are just so completely disconnected from reality.

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His assertion, for example, that the evidence would not stand up in a court of law.

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We're talking about legal documents here. We're talking about videotapes here.

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We're talking about audio recordings here. I sat there and read that and said, here's someone who just doesn't even know what's going on, very clearly does not know what's going on.

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If Elmer Townes has no idea what's going on, isn't even aware of what the actual information is, so as to say something as silly as, well, that would just never stand up in court, court documents would never stand up in court, videotape doesn't stand up in court, audio doesn't stand up in court, then clearly whatever this alleged inquiry that the

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Board of Directors has had could not have even begun to scratch the surface of being anything meaningful.

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I decided that after the debate's over and I get back to Phoenix and I have an opportunity to sort of catch up when you're away for quite some time, there's always a catch -up period of time, that I need to write a letter to Dr.

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Townes and lay out the exact questions that Ergen Kanter needs to answer and ask him,

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Welser, if there has been this kind of response, then the public needs to know.

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If you've already asked these questions, then we need to know what the answers are. As I thought through the number of questions, this could be a long letter, because especially in light of the

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Liberty cover -up, which is the only way I can describe this Christianity Today article, all the questions need to be put on the table now.

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There's no such thing as picking on any little issue. There might have been a time, if Dr.

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Kanter had been up front from the beginning, that some of the issues could have been laid aside, but not any longer.

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I'm going to write that, and I'm going to send it the old -style way, and I'm also going to post it openly and publicly, so that if we aren't given an answer, maybe other people will have the opportunity of contacting them and asking those questions.

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These questions need to become a regular part of what is being presented to the leadership of Liberty until they finally relent and do the right thing.

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Right now, it seems like they have chosen to follow the party line and to ignore the mountains of evidence.

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I was looking at the comments that are piling up on the

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Christianity Today article. A lot of people, a vast majority of people, from what I could see, were quite disappointed with the article and with the slant that it took.

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It was a little frightening to read Dr. Towns' comments, specifically, quote,

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Towns, who had a hand in hiring Kanter, says the Liberty Board has held inquiry and directors are satisfied that Kanter has done nothing theologically inappropriate.

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Theologically inappropriate? Well, that's interesting in light of the documentation of the myth -making that Ergin Kanter is guilty of.

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Evidently, making up your history and padding your resume and adding to your testimony, shall we say, is not theologically inappropriate.

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Simply being untruthful is not theologically inappropriate. Claiming to debate people you've never even met is not theologically inappropriate.

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One is truly left to wonder exactly what would be theologically inappropriate in Dr.

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Towns' estimation and in the estimation of the Liberty Board. One truly does wonder about these things, especially when he says it's not an ethical issue, it's not a moral issue.

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So, honesty and integrity is not an ethical or moral issue. Is it possible that Dr.

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Towns really thinks this is just about the Rankin comments that the

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Kanter made or about Kanter being a radical Arminian? Has Kanter possibly convinced him of this and he just simply hasn't even looked at the information?

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I'd like to think that's the case. I don't know. But for those of us who know what the situation is, these words just speak of someone who has really no possible idea of what's really going on.

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It is truly, truly amazing. It is also likewise amazing that they attempted to interview both

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Ergin and Ymir Kanter and neither would make themselves available.

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That obviously is, I think, the main issue here. These men will not come forward,

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Ergin Kanter in particular, to actually address the issues and to answer the questions.

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I think that's going to just continue to be the way this is handled until the secular media, which does not have the, shall we say, problems that Christianity Today would have as far as advertising money goes, come along and then things are going to change.

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Very quickly, because we do have a phone call we want to get to, I didn't want to spend my whole time on talking about Ergin Kanter again.

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I'm tired of it. Everybody's tired of it. That doesn't mean that it's time to go, oh well, okay, fine.

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Because look, this is a matter of integrity and ministry to Muslims and I can guarantee you that many

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Muslims who are aware of the situation are sitting back and just looking at the quote unquote Christian community, because we can't expect them to make differentiations any more than we do.

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And they are sitting there looking at this mess and looking at the behavior of the leadership and they're looking at evangelicals as a whole.

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And put yourself, if you can for just a moment, put yourself in their position. What if the tables were turned and there was a well -known leader in an

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Islamic school who claimed to be an expert on Christianity and once we started, once even some

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Muslims started digging through his own story, discovered that his story is bogus, it's fraudulent.

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That he claimed to be significantly more important than the Christian community actually was.

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Would there not be a temptation on our part upon hearing about this, seeing documentation?

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Well, I can give as an example my own videotapes, video recordings on YouTube where I go through the claims of Yusuf Estes, who is viewed as an expert on Christianity, as a former

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Christian minister by Muslims and yet I demonstrated that Yusuf Estes has such a gross ignorance of the

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Christian faith that it's simply laughable. So why isn't this the same thing in reverse?

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Why do we not see that this is the same thing? Put yourself in their shoes and then look at how the

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Christian community is responding to this. Would you not be very tempted to come to the conclusion that Christians simply want to believe the worst things they can possibly believe about Islam?

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They will believe anything, including lies, about Islam. As long as it's negative toward Islam.

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Why should they then take us seriously when we talk about the truth and our alleged passion there for the truth?

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Why should they when people behave like this? That's what really bothers me is right now it seems like the leadership at Liberty, whether purposefully or out of just abject ignorance and not doing due diligence, whatever it is, it seems like the leadership at Liberty is far more concerned about their institutional bottom line than they are about the massive amount of damage that their actions are doing to the very ministry that Ergin Kanner claims to be in the front lines doing, which we know he is not.

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It's a sad thing, but I did want to, we'll go to Greg and then Mike here in a moment, but there was, like I said,

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I was reading through the comments. I almost never do that, but I wanted to see what kind of comments. And they're almost, I didn't see any supportive of Ergin Kanner.

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I might've missed one. But one bothered me from someone that was posted early this morning from someone called

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Christ follower, Christ follower. And here is the comment as it was posted.

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This story shows many of the reasons why myself and countless others are turning away from organized, quote,

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Christianity, end quote, and toward being known as merely, quote, Christ followers, end quote.

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With only minimal connection to the institutional church, they say that they don't see how the bloggers will damage the seminary.

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Unfortunately, they don't see how this is further striking down Christianity as a religion. No wonder so many non -Christians laugh at us.

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Hypocrisy is everywhere, even in the seminaries. If the heads of seminaries are liars and exaggerators, what kind of church followers are they creating?

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What kind of example are they giving to the next generation? Do whatever you have to do to get to the top of the pay grade in Christianity.

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Then if anyone finds out, just apologize and Christians are obliged to forgive. These are sad times.

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Now, I'm going to assume that this person is speaking honestly. We all know that people pretend to be things they're not on the internet.

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That's what we're talking about here, sort of. And I suppose there's a possibility that this could have been posted by someone who's not really a

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Christian or whatever. But the reality, someone in the channel is saying that we know the person who posted this.

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Is that the case? There's a little bit of a lag here.

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But to anybody who would say that, to anybody who would make that kind of an argumentation.

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Oh my, hold on a second here. Breaking news. Looks like Liberty University is trying to cover up evidence

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Mohammed Khan's videos of Dr. Kenner on YouTube have been removed. This comes up when you try to view these videos.

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This video is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Liberty University, Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary. Also, Khan's YouTube account has been suspended.

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Is that so? Could someone verify that, please, in channel?

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I would very much like to find out if that's the case. We need to find that out. If that's the case, then, oh my, what an amazing thing that would be if Liberty actually went after that to try to suppress the evidence.

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I'm looking. Look at that.

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I'm not seeing his stuff isn't coming up. Let me see here.

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This is called this account is suspended. Look at that. Wow, that is amazing.

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My account has been suspended. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I hope not. Let me look. Let me look. It still says this.

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Oh, man, it came up with the same same screen like, oh,

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OK, we're still there. Uh, but, uh, his account has been suspended.

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Look at that. That isn't that how truthful people act? There you go.

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There you go. Hide and seek. Get rid of those videos, folks.

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That's that's how you do it. Way to go, Liberty, for showing us how it's done, folks.

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Unbelievable. Well, I'm awful glad I've downloaded a lot of that stuff.

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I'm really glad I've downloaded a lot of that stuff. Maybe, you know, maybe this is. Maybe this is what they're going to do.

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They're going to try to use their money and their their legal power. Unbelievable.

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I don't even know what to say. I don't even know what to say. No, I don't think they could go after me because I didn't post any of that stuff.

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And I didn't create any of that stuff. I did discuss it. Uh, but, uh, hey, if they want to, they want to try it, uh, that would be one of the stupidest things they could ever do because they go after me and I'm gonna make sure everybody and their uncle knows what they're doing and exactly why they're doing it.

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Uh, this is, um, this is not simply going to go away.

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And if they think they can intimidate people into, if they think they can intimidate Christians into backing off about what are clearly lies and bogus claims in the part of the president of their seminary, it's not going to happen.

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Uh, this is wrong. The only way to respond to Muhammad Khan is to come openly and refute the accusations.

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Uh, that is absolutely amazing. That is absolutely amazing. All right.

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Um, I, I was going to comment more on, on that person. Uh, but with that information coming up right at that time,

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I felt I needed to take a look at that. That's amazing. Uh, absolutely amazing that, uh, that that's taking place.

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Um, just shocking. Absolutely shocking. Well, let's get to our phone calls.

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Uh, 877 -753 -3341 is the phone number. And let's start off with Greg in Santa Ana.

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Hi, Greg. Hey, good morning. How are you? Ah, better than I deserve. Thanks for asking.

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Listen, um, in, in, in my public gospel proclamation now, uh, since I've, you know, recently, you know, become, you know, just thoroughly convinced of the definite atonement,

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I find certain phrases getting stuck in my throat, as in Christ died for you, when

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I don't know who I'm talking to. Um, you know, can you help me with that? Well, uh, yeah, it's interesting.

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Last evening in the Q &A, we were having the same, uh, same discussion. And I pointed out that time that, um, the, the key is to be apostolic in your proclamation.

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What did the apostles do? The apostles did not speak as we so often speak. Uh, the apostles, uh, did not, uh, present the gospel as if, well,

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God's done something good for you, something nice for you, therefore do something nice for God. Uh, which so often is, is what we say when we're saying, well,

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Christ died for you. The scriptures say that Christ will be a perfect savior for anyone who turns in faith and repentance to him.

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And so our, our call is to call for repentance from sin and faith in the

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Lord Jesus Christ. And the person who repents and believes will find Christ to be a perfect savior.

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The problem with the Armenian use of that, uh, aside from the fact that it's stealing from reformed theology, uh,

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Armenians don't actually believe Christ died for anybody. Uh, they don't believe in substitutionary atonement, at least not the consistent ones, the inconsistent ones, borrow

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Calvinism at that point. But the presentation is normally made is, well, look at how much

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God has, has done for you. And therefore, out of guilt, you should do something good for God.

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Well, that's, that's never what the, how the apostles made the proclamation. The proclamation is always repentance and faith.

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And so, uh, I would highly recommend looking at the conclusions of the sermons, uh, that the apostles, uh, preach

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Peter and Paul and others preach and acts and conscientiously seek to follow their own, uh, parameters in how they very passionately called men, uh, to abandon their sin and to cling to Christ, uh, for salvation.

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And, uh, they, they never did. So by, um, in any way, compromising, uh, the, the reality of the perfection of the atonement of Christ or making the atoning work of Christ, some kind of, um, a generic thing that then somehow puts men in a position of, uh, uh, of guilt or something along those lines.

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They, they did in talking to the Jews, talk about the, uh, their guiltiness, uh, in their generation of having been involved in, in the crucifixion of Christ.

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That's obviously a different issue than what we're talking about today. Okay. Do you understand?

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Do you understand what I've said? Yeah, I totally gotcha. Um, I wasn't so much, you know, you know, prior to this, you know,

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I wasn't so much saying, Hey, Jesus did this for you. So you do this for him. So much as it was just kind of like first Corinthians 15, you know, this is the gospel that Christ died for our sins.

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According, you know, but, but recently died for your sins, you know?

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Yeah. Yeah. But that's a, that's a Christian confession. That's a confession of the Christian people. And if you can certainly say to someone, if you want that to be true in your life, uh, that, that is only true for those who repent and believe, um, you know, it's not true for the person who is going to be spending eternity in, in hell and, uh, uh, throwing that back in the face of God that, you know, look,

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Christ, Christ failed in his work to save me or something like that. Uh, but yeah, I believe me.

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I understand the tradition is, is deeply embedded with it within us. And, uh, but there's, there's everything worthwhile in seeking to be consistent in the presentation that we make, because then you don't have to go back later on and try to do repair work.

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Uh, because, well, I know I said this, but what I really meant was this type of a situation, you know, you just, you just seek to be biblical.

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You seek to be apostolic, follow their example. And, uh, the nice thing is you don't have to utilize any of those methodologies, uh, that so often appeal solely to the, uh, emotions of men and, uh, or women.

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But instead you can preach the whole counsel of God. And, uh, that's when you can then have the joy that, uh, that Paul had when he spoke to the

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Ephesian elders in Acts chapter 20 and said, uh, I am, am guiltless of the blood of, of any man because I have proclaimed you the whole counsel of God.

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And, uh, that's a, that's a wonderful feeling to have after you have taken the time to, uh, proclaim the gospel to someone.

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So my, my strongest recommendation would be to, uh, to analyze how the apostles handled that situation and looking at the specific instances when they are talking to either a, a group that is clearly made up of only unbelievers or at least a mixed group of unbelievers and differentiate those from the statements that are made within the context of the church itself.

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Uh, the confessions of faith and things like that. I think that'll help provide a fair amount of clarity. Okay. And, um, can

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I, can I ask you another question or do you need to move on? Um, sure, real quick. Well, um, with the, with the, with the command, uh, say for example, when

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Jesus said, repent and believe the gospel where it says repent and believe. Now, I don't know

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Greek, but I know you do. And I've heard that there are certain constructions where when the conjunction and is used, it's connecting to like identical things like our great

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God and savior, Jesus Christ. And so I'm wondering if that repent and believe is, is that, is it, is it one in the same action?

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In other words, you know, the act of repentance is to believe in Christ and vice versa.

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Um, no, uh, that, that wouldn't be an example of what's called a Granville Sharp construction.

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Uh, however, um, the, the two are, are, are intimately connected together, but they, they have to be differentiated from one another as well.

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I don't think that you can have saving faith without repentance, uh, and true repentance, which involves a turning away from sin and turning toward God, uh, is both, both are gifts of God.

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Repentance and faith are both described in scriptures as gifts of God. So true repentance and true faith come from the spirit of God.

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And we have to be enabled to do those because we're slaves to sin. We're dead in our trespasses and sins.

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And unless that, uh, that situation is removed, then you're, you're talking to the heart of stone and the heart of stone isn't going to be doing either one.

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So, uh, the logical order would be like regeneration resulting in repentance and faith or.

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Well, yeah. I mean, obviously the spirit, the work of the spirit of God has to come first. Otherwise you're saying that those who are in the flesh can please

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God. Those who have hearts of stone can do what's spiritually pleasing before God, et cetera, et cetera. Um, but, uh, both actions while, uh, absolutely necessary, we can distinguish between them.

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They're intimately connected, similar to justification and sanctification are intimately connected to one another in the purpose of God, but they must be differentiated from one another or it leads to all sorts of difficulty in the same way.

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Uh, repentance and faith are intimately connected, but they're not necessarily synonymous.

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Uh, and so we have to allow that differentiation to, to stand. All right.

31:10

Well, thank you so much for your, for your answers. Thanks. Okay. Thanks, Greg. All right. Bye -bye. 877 -753 -3341.

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I believe, uh, we will be taking our break now and then coming back with Mike and Jonathan as well.

31:27

So we'll continue on with the dividing line, uh, right after this. The criminal mishandling of God's word may be

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34:42

Mike, how are you?

34:58

Hello, Mike from Wisconsin. Okay, not hearing

35:03

Mike. Hello, anybody out there?

35:12

I'm not hearing anything at all right now. Okay, I need some indication from the control room that we are still here, still doing something.

35:26

Hello? Hello, Mike. Hi, can you hear me? I can now, thank you. Okay, good. I'm good.

35:32

How are you doing? I'm doing good. Okay, good. I just had a question. Um, how would you,

35:40

I'm looking, I'm looking for advice on interacting with, um, sorry,

35:49

I think somebody picked up on my health. Um, how would you, um, trying to think how to phrase this.

35:58

I'm 23 years old. I, you know, I'm a young guy, and how would you encourage me to witness to the, like, adults, as well as just the culture that just has such, like, this carelessness about just life and religion and all this kind of stuff, and just that apathy that people have.

36:21

Because for myself, it's just like, people, you know, may look at me like, well, what do you know? You're just this young kid that, you know, and how do

36:30

I, how do I interact with people when they show that just total disinterest and they don't want to talk about it?

36:37

I just leave it at that, or I continue to try reasoning with them, or? Well, each person is an individual.

36:46

Obviously, what you're referring to is the continuing crippling of the spirit and the spiritual nature of our culture due to secularism.

36:58

And people have very little sense of spiritual realities. They are completely caught up with their own lives, their own things.

37:09

They don't see themselves as the creatures of God any longer. They see themselves merely as the chance result of an evolutionary process.

37:19

They don't have any concept of themselves in history. It's a real dehumanization of mankind that's taking place.

37:27

And outside of the Spirit of God awakening a heart, any discussion of redemption and justification and atonement is just simply, you know, not going to ring the bells of men's hearts.

37:45

They don't care about these things at this moment in time. And so, I think that's some of the wisdom that you see in bringing to bear the law of God upon people's hearts.

37:56

Of course, to do so requires that you be able to discuss why you believe that there is a

38:04

God, why you believe that God cares about what's going on, the law of God, all these things.

38:10

That's why apologetics is becoming more and more necessary to just basic evangelism because of the state of our society and its detestation of what is godly and what is good.

38:26

No question whatsoever about that from my perspective. So, the only way really,

38:35

Mike, to do so is, first of all, you've got to be doing it for the right reasons or you're going to be burning out very, very quickly.

38:44

You speak to people, not because you know everything, but because God has been gracious to And so, you speak as one having been redeemed to those who need redemption.

38:57

And you do so as a servant of Christ, recognizing that as a high calling. You remember the words of Paul to Timothy, let no one despise your youth.

39:08

You clearly recognize that you do not do so on the basis of any personal standing in the sense of any, you know, you're better than somebody else or something like that.

39:20

We're all equal along those lines, but that you represent a wonderful savior. And that just because you're a younger person doesn't mean that what you're saying is not true.

39:33

But hopefully, in each one of these things, you've seen that there is a necessity for you to be thinking through before you even start the fundamental disconnects between our society and a biblical way of thought, and that you live in light of them.

39:47

Remember when Peter told all believers, not just elders, but all believers, to set

39:54

Christ, treat Christ as holy, treat Christ as the Lord, as holy in your hearts, always being ready to give an answer to the hopes within you to anyone who asks you.

40:05

It is that behavior, it is that daily living under the lordship of Christ that results in people wanting to know from you what gives you this hope, a hope that they don't have.

40:16

And I think one of the reasons that so many of our evangelistic efforts are hampered is that we generally don't live in such a way that people can see that we think or believe differently in the first place than they do.

40:28

We look so much like the world, even the church is trying to look like the world as far as that goes. And so if you are living in light of the lordship of Christ, then recognize that your authority does not come from yourself, it comes from the one who gave you the message to proclaim.

40:47

And yeah, there are going to be times when you dust off your feet and move on, you know, when someone becomes abusive, someone becomes foul, whatever else it might be, you know,

40:59

I think you move on. But at the same time, there are people that you will speak to, the first time you speak to them, you do think they're completely apathetic.

41:09

But then all of a sudden, something happens in their life, and you're the first person they're looking up. So you just don't know.

41:16

You make yourself available, you focus upon living in light of the lordship of Christ, and you trust him from there.

41:23

I think as we become more and more of a secularized nation under the judgment of God, it's going to become all the more difficult to engage in that type of activity.

41:32

But we have to be faithful to what the Lord calls us to. Yeah, that's very helpful.

41:39

Yeah, very good, very good thoughts. Just good things. Thank you very much.

41:45

Okay, Mike, and you're up in Wisconsin, which is one of those secularized areas big time, especially around the universities.

41:52

So pray for faithfulness. Thanks for calling, Mike. Yep, you're welcome. Thank you.

41:57

All right, thanks. God bless. Bye -bye. All right, let's quickly go to Jonathan. Hi, Jonathan. Hi, Dr.

42:03

White. How are you doing? I'm doing good. Good. I had a question about a book, some of the ones that you've written.

42:12

I haven't read The Potter's Freedom yet. Well, I'm going to stop talking to you right now, then,

42:19

Jonathan, because that was a joke. Sorry, I couldn't hear you very well.

42:26

I'm sorry. I said I'm going to stop talking to you right now, then, if you haven't read The Potter's Freedom. I mean, just call in here and insult me like that.

42:34

My goodness. Well, I mean, the first one I read was

42:39

Debating Calvinism. I'm sorry. Yeah, I was really...

42:44

Well, the reason I say that is, look, if you want to know which one's which and which is best to do,

42:51

I always prefer The Potter's Freedom to Debating Calvinism, not just because only half of that book is really worth reading, but because of the order.

43:02

I warn Multnomah, if you don't force

43:08

Dave Hunt to stay on one topic, he never will stay on one topic. Therefore, especially given the format of the book, if he covers multiple topics, this book is going to be next to impossible to follow because it's going to be bouncing all over the place, and it's going to result in confusion.

43:26

Well, they couldn't hold him to what they promised to do, and as a result, it bounces all over the place.

43:33

The Potter's Freedom is... Yeah, the thing that frustrated me most is that I didn't actually... I wasn't a

43:38

Calvinist at the time, and when I was seeing the things that you were citing and actually going through them, and I was looking at my

43:47

Bible, and I'm like, whoa, okay, this makes a lot of sense, and it's a little scary that it makes sense, but I was seeing what

43:55

Dave Hunt wrote, and that he wasn't really responding, and that he was just saying, oh, God would never do this, and it was really frustrating for me, because I don't want to assume what

44:07

God will do. I want to worship him in spirit and in truth. Right.

44:14

And at times, I was sort of in between whether I believed in just the sovereignty of God or whether man has a choice in salvation, and what

44:26

I came coming back to is that it was the scripture I needed to go to, and that if that's who

44:32

God is, I'm going to love him for who he is and be grateful. The question about the

44:37

Potter's Freedom is, do you think it's a good idea to read Chosen but Free first, since it's a response to that?

44:45

Well, I would love to encourage people to...

44:52

In fact, I know someone in seminary who did an independent study class, and they use those two as textbooks, and so if someone wants to read a

45:01

Arminian non -reformed perspective, then go ahead and read Chosen but Free, and then read the

45:07

Potter's Freedom, and then read Dr. Geisler's response to the

45:13

Potter's Freedom in the appendix, and then read my response to that. That's as close as you're going to get to a debate, because while I have always been willing to debate

45:21

Norman Geisler on the subject, he is not willing to do it. But you don't have to, because I very accurately represented

45:28

Dr. Geisler's position and quoted it extensively. So, if it's a financial issue for somebody to pick up both books, then

45:36

I can honestly say that you will get a very clear, very honest presentation of Dr.

45:43

Geisler's position in my own book, to which I then respond. So, either one is fine.

45:49

I think I'll just go with yours, it's definitely a financial issue. Yeah, well, if that's the case, you're not going to have any questions about what

45:59

Dr. Geisler's position is, exactly how he argues for it, and it will be accurately represented.

46:07

So, hopefully you'll find it to be very useful. All right, and if it makes you feel any better, I got debating capitalism from a library.

46:14

All right, thanks for your call. Thank you. God bless. 877 -753 -3341.

46:23

Let's now talk with Adam. Hi, Adam. Hey, good afternoon,

46:28

Dr. White. How are you doing? I'm doing pretty good. I'm going to be heading over your direction here in a couple of days.

46:36

Yeah, you are. I'm hoping to be able to get up there. If I can, that'd be great. Excellent.

46:43

I'm a longtime listener, a first -time caller, and I just want to thank you, first off, for your take on the whole

46:50

Dr. Eragon -Kanner situation. You've done it with class and in love, and I thank you for that, because the situation really bothers me.

47:02

I'm an attorney here in St. Petersburg, and I'm obviously also a Christian, and that's such a documented liar and fraud, and that's really what

47:10

Eragon -Kanner is. That such a man could rise to the position that he's in really upsets me greatly, and I can't let this issue go, and I really pray that you and others with bigger microphones than me don't let it go either.

47:25

Well, I'll tell you, Adam, it is a tremendous source of frustration to look at this situation and to recognize that despite any of the personal applications

47:40

I might have, I mean, this man is basically pretending to do what I actually do, and hence complicating my interaction with Muslims and future debates and things like that.

47:53

Aside from that, which I would think would cause sound believers to have great concerns about what

48:01

Liberty's doing, it is the overall cultural situation, especially amongst the

48:08

Southern Baptists, this culture of celebrity that is, well,

48:16

I can tell it's frustrating you and it frustrates me as well, but it's just so far removed from where we should be as believers that it is difficult for me to understand how those involved with it cannot see it and they cannot sense it, and I have to constantly struggle not to jump to conclusions simply based upon what

48:39

I'm saying here about, well, it just must mean that everything there is all wrong and so on and so forth. You know, there's good people at Liberty, and I hope people understand that.

48:48

There are good professors there, there are good strong believers there, there are good people at Liberty, but I have discovered, and I'm sure you've seen this in your life, that especially when it comes to the point of having to run and support a large organization, that people can start doing some really strange things, and unfortunately, even

49:13

Christians can start doing some very non -Christian things, and I think that's what we are seeing taking place right now.

49:20

I am not going to back down, but I only have so much of a microphone, and I apologize to my

49:33

Muslim friends. Certainly, I've already heard from Muslims who have thanked me for taking the hits that I'm taking for even raising this issue, and I hope that that means

49:43

I will have some type of opportunity maybe to speak to them about the gospel from a position of integrity, but I really think it's going to be the people in the pew, it's going to be believers like yourself that make the difference here, and that honestly and respectfully and lovingly contact people like Dr.

50:07

Towns and say, Sir, could you please give us an answer for the questions that need to be answered in this matter?

50:14

Could you please do so? I think if that continues... I tried to contact

50:20

Liberty University, Liberty Seminary specifically, and it was like they thought a conspiracy theorist was calling them, that they wanted to know who

50:28

I was connected with, and who I was writing for, and I was a blogger.

50:34

It was just really a lot of nonsense. I tried to communicate to the... I think it was Dr. Kanner's secretary or someone answering his phone or administrator that I'm just a believer that's concerned about the situation, and that wasn't received very well.

50:48

But my specific comment concerns the breaking news, given my background as an attorney. I just want to comment,

50:55

Dr. White, that if Dr. Kanner and Liberty University, Liberty Seminary, refuse to repent and want to wield a legal sword, we have legal options as well.

51:07

You or other people can certainly post those videos, and if Liberty comes after you, well, let them.

51:14

Or the more difficult route, and one I don't think most people would be geared up for, is people, especially

51:21

Liberty students or former students, could sue Liberty and President Kanner. It seems that there might be a case here for fraud.

51:29

I know even some states, I'm not sure about Virginia law, have religious fraud on the books. And if that was the case,

51:36

I'm not saying that's the route we should go, but certainly then most information would come out, and if nothing else,

51:41

Dr. Towns would certainly understand that our arguments do stand up in court.

51:47

Well, yeah, it's sad that we even have to be discussing these things. If Liberty really does go this direction, they need to realize it is not possible in this day and age for the information that is already known, and more will be coming out, to be suppressed.

52:07

You might be able to take it down one spot, it's going to pop up someplace else.

52:13

You can't handle the situation this way, and Christians should not even be thinking about trying to handle the situation this way.

52:22

It is not only so counterproductive, it's so foolish, and it's so unbiblical.

52:29

You're exactly right. One of the issues that I have brought up is if someone came to Liberty Seminary and enrolled in the global apologetics program, based upon the idea that the head of that program is an experienced apologist who has engaged in debates with Muslims and Buddhists and Hindus and atheists all around the world in 13 countries and 40 states or whatever it was that he had up, and then

53:02

I discover that actually he's never done anything like that. He's done some interviews with people and been embarrassed in the process.

53:13

I think as a student in that context, I might be going, I wonder if there are some remedies for this because you're not getting what you expected.

53:26

I certainly hope that that's not what happens because as I said, there are other good people in the school, but yes, if they start trying to do the scorched earth policy, and obviously what they're thinking is here is, well, he's a

53:41

Muslim, we can go after him. That has disgusted me in this entire thing, and Mohammed Khan himself has pointed out more than once,

53:50

I have disagreed with Mohammed Khan. He can produce the emails where I have disagreed with him and said,

53:55

I think you were wrong about this, and I think you were wrong about that. But the fact of the matter is,

54:01

Muslims can say true things. When a Muslim says it's 12 noon, it may well be 12 noon for crying out loud.

54:08

The kind of bigotry that is behind this kind of attitude, and let's face it, given the way

54:16

Erdogan talks about minorities and stuff like that, this doesn't shock me a whole bunch.

54:22

I am amazed at the man's language as the president of a country.

54:32

He's half Swedish for crying out loud. I'm sorry,

54:38

I don't know how anybody half Swedish can get away with the stuff that he gets away with, but that's what's been going on.

54:46

But it really bothers me, and anyone who loves truth, it should bother us tremendously.

54:51

But what you mentioned is exactly what I've been hearing from everyone who's contacting the bunker mode.

54:57

They are in full conspiracy, everyone's after us bunker mode right now, and that just isn't right.

55:05

It's a sad thing to observe. Well, I hope that any Liberty Listers or college students or seminarians or professors listening to the show, they need to stand up now if they are lovers of truth.

55:18

Because like you said, Dr. White, once 2020 is out front, it's too late then.

55:24

And the Christian witness is going to be so just set back, and it's really a shame. Yeah, it's a shame that Christianity Today didn't press the issue properly and maybe help to avoid that.

55:35

But it does seem to be, across the board, an evangelical problem with integrity these days, as far as that goes.

55:42

So, well, Adam, just pray for us, and the Lord makes good things come out of bad things, so who knows what's going to come out of this.

55:52

But I appreciate your comments, and keep praying for us. Absolutely. Hope to see you soon, Dr. White. Have a good day.

55:57

Thank you very much. God bless. Bye -bye. Yeah, well, I will have to admit, this situation is somewhat distracting to me.

56:08

I am going to do everything I can, in essence, over the next couple of days to lay it aside.

56:14

My email box will not allow me to do that completely. I really need to become focused on what has been my primary focus, and that is the debate with Dr.

56:27

Price. And then, in a very short period of time, two debates in Dearborn with scholars,

56:36

Shiite scholars. And then, at the end of August, and we're going to be putting up some graphics about this this week, but don't pull the plug on the music quite yet.

56:52

Big announcement that I suppose I need to make it now, even before we get the graphics up, because that could be the last dividing line until afterwards.

57:04

But August 30th, Monday, August 30th on Long Island.

57:10

We have confirmed that I will be debating on that day, Christopher Hitchens. I put a blog article up last week saying that we need to raise the funds to make certain elements of that work, as well as the trip to Detroit for the debates with the date.

57:30

The date will be Monday, August 30th on Long Island. And so, we will have a banner up fairly soon that will give you the specific location, and the location is set, the time is set, and the topic of the debate has been agreed on.

57:51

And this is what I think a lot of people would be excited about. Most of Christopher Hitchens' debates have been just sort of bland atheist topics.

58:00

Does the God of the Bible exist, or something like that, which is fine. However, I looked at his book,

58:07

God is Not Great, and I looked at what he had to say about the Bible in two primary chapters.

58:14

And the chapter on the New Testament talks about the evil of the New Testament. And so, the thesis for the evening will be, is the

58:23

New Testament evil? And so, we're going to be able to have a little bit more of a biblically oriented debate.

58:31

And I think people who have heard Christopher Hitchens speak, and what he says about the New Testament, will look forward to a kind of encounter that will be very useful along those lines.

58:44

So, Monday, August 30th, myself versus Christopher Hitchens. Subject is the

58:50

New Testament evil. And I'm looking forward to that greatly. Obviously, you all know

58:57

I like to prepare. And so, I pray that you would pray for me as I prepare for these large number of debates over just the next couple of months that could be very useful and very helpful to God's people.

59:11

So, with that, we thank you for joining us on The Dividing Line today, live from Denver, Colorado. There won't be any program on Thursday, as that is my travel day to Tampa, but please be praying for the debate on Friday evening between myself and Robert Price.

59:28

Very important debate. We'll report back to you after that next week. Thanks for listening.

59:33

Bye -bye. We were standing at the crossroads, let this moment slip away.

59:58

We must contend for the faith our fathers fought for. We need a new Reformation day.

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