Why Theology? :: The Trinity

What is up guys, my name is KJ and this is Y Theology and I'm my co -host, Jeremiah Nortier.

He's been shy. He gave me the cue, I just sat there in silence.

No, it's so great, man, to be back, man. It's been a while since we've been on here together, man. But look at the Lord, man, we're finally back.

I feel like the Benchers, man, the team united back together. Yes, it has been a while. I've really missed hanging out with you and getting to dive into some theology.

I'm more of a Justice League guy, so I probably shouldn't say, you know, Justice League United, but that's another story. Yeah, I'm more of a

Marvels fan. I heard

KJ's feelings just then. We was doing so good. I always like Superman and Batman.

Now, Jeremiah came out a while ago and taught on my campus about Trinity.

And as I was hearing that, I was like, man, this is some good stuff, man. It's not too much teaching about this kind of stuff, you know, just listen to it.

And so I kind of wanted him to teach it on the podcast right now. And so how'd you kind of like, you know,

I guess, get interested in Trinity? I know it's one of those fundamental doctrines that we all should believe as Christians, but what was it about you that kind of made you do like a lot of research about it?

Yeah, there's a couple of things. The more I was sharing my faith, I shared the gospel to a

Jehovah's Witness. And sure enough, he was like, so you keep talking about how

God is a Trinity, and you have the God, the Father, Son, Holy Spirit. I just said, where is the Trinity found in the

Bible? And in that moment, I found myself lost at words. I thought, I have no idea how to articulate the

Trinity, and it's important to the gospel. Because we were all talking about how God the Father sent the Son, and how the

Son, you know, fulfilled, you know, was perfectly obedient to the law, and how the Holy Spirit regenerates believers.

And so yeah, it was through sharing the faith, realizing that I was not equipped to talk about the

God that I adore and worship. So that did not sit well with me. I thought this,

I must figure out, you know, better how the Scripture explains this. And I will say that James White's Alpha and Omega ministry,

I noticed he had a particular love for the Trinity. And he said something that was super convicting to me.

He said, you got so many Christians that are passionate about their eschatology, but have no idea how to explain the

Trinity. And that hurt, because I was like, oh, he's so right. And I began to, man, just dive into the

Word, and look at all the resources that have existed throughout church history. And I've just been blessed.

The more I've looked into this topic, I've been blessed. And I've noticed what a lot of pastors say is the

Trinity's too complicated to understand. And KJ, that's not true, man. The Bible equips us greatly with who

God is, and what He has been like for eternity. And so I want to encourage people to study the

Trinity, not to run away from it. Perfect, man. Perfectly said, man. So I guess an initial starting point,

I guess, defining the Word of the Trinity. So how do you define like the word Trinity itself?

Yes. So beginning with the word Trinity is super helpful, because if you break down that word, you have tri and unity.

Tri means three, and unity essentially means one. And so the Trinity is saying in some profound sense,

God is three, and then in another profound sense, God is one. But as we get into this,

KJ, we are not saying God is one and three in the same way. And so we'll go ahead and say God is one in His being, and in His essence with His eternal existence,

He is one. And then God is three, not in His being, but He is three in His personhood.

So you have two categories for the one and the three. Okay, okay.

So as we get, we're going to get to that in a little bit, kind of, you know, break them down a little bit more. So like listeners being us, you know, kind of know what it means.

But we can kind of like break the Trinity down in three categories, I guess, three different ways. These are basically your notes.

I took some good notes. No, I'm just playing. But I guess the word monotheism, that God is, you know,

He's one truly God. Another one is the three divine persons. And then lastly, the equality between those three persons.

So first, I guess, initial point will be kind of understanding what is the word monotheism mean?

Yeah, and real quick, KJ, those three bullet points, you're talking about monotheism, three divine persons, the inequality of those persons, that comes from a book that I really want to recommend to our listeners,

The Forgotten Trinity, by Dr. James White. This is kind of his three bullet outline of saying this is crucial to looking to the

Scripture alone. In all of Scripture, these three we're going to unfold are crucial to understanding the

Trinity. So once again, that's The Forgotten Trinity by Dr. James White. So monotheism means that there is one true living

Creator God. There's one God who exists, not a pantheon of gods. Polytheism says that there's many gods, right?

So you think about Mormonism, believes in that. And then you have, and all different, you know, forms of that.

So monotheism says that there's one God. And this is a foundational truth to the

Old Testament. And so probably one of the best places to go to, to just show monotheism is in the

Shema, Deuteronomy 6, that says, Hero Israel, the Lord our God is one.

Now that begins to just let us understand there's one Creator God. The book of Isaiah says that he is from everlasting to everlasting.

The Psalms kind of confirm that as well, and that he's the Creator. So this one

God is Yahweh, who has created all things, spoke the world into existence.

So we begin with the Old Testament that affirms that. Jesus in the New Testament affirms that.

In Mark chapter 12, verse 29, he simply quotes the Shema. Jesus affirmed that there's one true

God. And then the Apostle Paul into the New Testament, he confirms in 1 Corinthians 8, verse 4, that there is no

God but one. And there's actually more places. So it's all over the scripture monotheism, that there's only one

God to ever exist and will exist. That's pretty well said, man.

Now, I guess when we think about that, I know somebody's probably wondering, you know,

Jeremiah, how can God be one, but then at the same time be three? And so how do you kind of like help to kind of understand like the oneness about God?

That's probably what people are probably, I guess it's no wonder, I guess it's more questions about the oneness versus, you know,

God being in three. How would you kind of explain the oneness of God? Yes, I know we kind of got a structured notes here.

But what helped me the most is understanding the two different categories between being and person.

They're not the same thing, because it would be illogical, contradictory for us to say

God is, there's one God, and yet there's three gods. If we presented the Trinity like that, then the

Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, they would rightly be able to say that does not make sense.

And there's no way that that represents the truth. So I just thought we're not saying God is one

God, yet three gods, or God is one person, yet three persons. And I think that's the wrong way to approach.

And I don't think that's the way that the Bible explains it. So understanding these two categories of being in person is really the best way to approach it.

So when I came on to your campus, and we started talking about it, I think the best way to differentiate between being a person is to start kind of in our created order, our common experience, we differentiate between the two.

So for example, everything that exists has been a rock, has rock being, we're human beings, we exist, right?

And God has eternally existed. You got angels, these are angelic beings, they exist.

So the point is, everything that exists has been. But not everything that exists is personal.

Okay, this is a huge point. So that rock being is an impersonal being, right?

You and I are fundamentally different than rocks, lamps, chairs, a lot of these inanimate objects, but they still exist.

So we clearly see, to be personal doesn't mean that, to be a personal is distinct.

And really, we get into how people reflect God, because we're made in his image.

We have a moral compass, right? So human beings, we're distinct from rocks and things like that.

But our being is shared by one person. So I'm Jeremiah, but my body is not

Jeremiah. My inner soul, my spirit, my inner being, that is

Jeremiah, right? The thing that makes me, me is immaterial, so to speak.

Now, here's the train of thought. Since human beings are limited and finite creatures in this world, our beings can only be shared by one person.

Now, once you grasp that, then the next step really makes sense.

God's being is limitless, transcendent, eternal, omnipotent.

Therefore, his one being is fully shared differently than us. His one being is fully shared by three persons eternally.

And that doesn't exhaust the mysteries to the Trinity by any stretch of the imagination, but that at least helps us understand, oh,

God is one being, eternally existed in his attributes. And then that eternal being is fully shared and revealed in three divine persons.

That's pretty good, man. And you kind of just say, being is just as defined as existence.

Yeah. Existence along with attributes, right? Because it's funny, we could easily step into a world of philosophy, which is fine with this, but you got to think, we profoundly share something with everything that exists, and that's namely existence.

And yet we're all particularly distinct and different from one another, from human beings and other objects.

And so all this reflects the tri -unity of the creator. He himself is both unified and diverse.

So that might be another topic, but the more you study the Trinity, you're just left with this overwhelming awe of who

God is. I got you, man. Now, you kind of hinted at early that God is one in his being, but then three in his person.

So we'll kind of go there with the three divine persons. Now, typically, this is a little bit more easy to understand because the

Bible is kind of clear. But for someone who has, I guess, maybe not know, where in the Bible do we see these three divine distinct persons?

Yes, that is an excellent question. So there's a few different places. When we talk about persons, we're talking about beings that can communicate, have relationship with one another and other persons.

So one of the best places to talk about the three persons of the Godhead, God the

Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, you remember we went to, I think it was in the Great Commission, Matthew 28, 19, where it says you have the name, baptizing them in the name, the

Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. You have the name singular, and yet you have three names. So this is the name

Yahweh, who has revealed himself in the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. That's the best Trinitarian verses.

And what I also like to point out is that the three persons being distinguished from one another.

You got God the Father speaking, this is my beloved Son, who I'm well pleased. You have Jesus being baptized by John the

Baptist. You have the Holy Spirit descending like a dove. Now, we've not really talked deep into this yet, but we can get into some of the that the

Father is personal. He speaks, he has a will, he has a desires, he has the personal pronoun he.

That's the same thing of Jesus. He's a man, he has a will, he talks with people, he talks with God the

Father, he prays to God the Father. And the Holy Spirit, this is what's confusing for some people. He's not an impersonal force like electricity.

He's a person. If you look in the book of Acts, he speaks to people. If you look in 1 Corinthians 12, he has a desire to give gifts to believers.

In Paul's writings, he can also be, oh goodness, what's the term?

Quench. You can quench the spirit. You can, whatever the other word is. But the point is, you don't grieve, there you go.

You don't grieve a rock. You don't be mad at a rock. You grieve a person. And so the point is, the

Holy Spirit is referred to as a he in John chapter 14. And so he's a person.

And we're going to get into this, but he's an eternal person. So you have three eternal divine persons, right?

Now, before we go to like those scriptures that you kind of talk about real quick, what is kind of like,

I guess, some false illustrations of how people like throughout history kind of define the Trinity? Because what we're saying here, you kind of hinted at, we're not saying that there is one

God and then three gods, that would be heresy. But we're saying that there is one eternal God and his being within the three persons.

What are some false, I guess? Oh, I'm really glad you brought this up.

And I want to encourage anybody, go on YouTube and look up bad analogies with St.

Patrick or whatever. It's a hilarious video that illustrates no analogy in the created order can rightly represent an eternal truth that exists outside of creation.

And we understand all analogies break down. But the thing with the Trinity is all analogies break down in a heretical way.

So that's why we have to differentiate between being a person because that's how the Bible presents the

Trinity. And we learn quickly that any analogy you think of will not only fall short, but it just does not come close to representing who

God is. So what I was taught growing up was that God is like a man.

That's already a bad analogy. He's like a man that is a father, a son, and a brother.

Now this commits the heresy of modalism because, and I love how your students respond because I asked them, what's the problem with that analogy?

And one of the first people to answer was, well, that man is one being in one person acting in different roles or different modes.

And I thought, man, that's so spot on because God is categorically different from us, right?

You know, it's interesting. Modalism is a form of Unitarianism, which says God is one being in one in his person.

Well, that just fails to take into account all the scripture that is spoken to the matter. So God is not like a man who just operates in different roles.

God is categorically distinct from that. And so let's see. Another analogy is the

Trinity is like water. Water can change into gas or liquid or solid.

Once again, this is modalism because you're saying water, this one thing can change into different modes.

It just doesn't even begin to articulate who God is. So yeah, those are some analogies that I was told growing up and the more

I've studied it. The one that I'm not as harsh against is you got time that is past, present, and future.

You know, I'm more sympathetic to that one, but obviously time is created and time is impersonal.

So those are things that just do not carry over when it talks about the Trinity. I know,

I've always heard too growing up, you know, the egg analogy, you got like the egg, the shell, the yolk, and then it's like...

I heard that one growing up too. You go ahead. Yeah, so that reminds me of another one.

The sun, you got the sun that radiates heat and light. Well, the problem is the heat and the light radiates from the sun.

So the sun and the Holy Spirit are not created from the sun.

So we're just illustrating that, you know, all creative analogies break down in a major way.

And wouldn't that one be partialism? Or would you just say it too? Yeah, the egg for sure is partialism.

It's kind of like a three -leafed clove. You're breaking God up into parts, like the egg is broken up into parts. God is not, the

Father is not a third, the sun is not a third, and the Holy Spirit is not a third. They're all, they all equally share in the divine essence and being of God.

So that's a good point. Now, I like what you mentioned too, when you were teaching this on the campus is like, this doctrine is not just like, you know, you have to look at the totality of scripture to get this doctrine.

And so before I kind of say that, you look at Old Testament, you know, Genesis, I believe it's

Genesis 128. I could be wrong. It says, let us create man in our image. Oh yeah, yeah. Right, right there.

And 27, right around there. So when you think about this, like this is a plural, us is plural. And even seeing the very first verses that, you know, in the beginning

God created, and then it says, you know, the spirit of God was hovering. I get this plurality language a little bit, but we don't kind of fully see this doctrine,

I guess, expounded upon into the New Testament. Now we do see, I believe it's Psalms.

I forget what Psalms it is, when David prays. Psalm 110. He says, sit at my right.

Some of you know how it goes. How does it go? Yeah, now it's an incredible verse, just like you're saying, because we read in English, the

Lord says to my Lord, sit at my right hand, make enemies your footstool, things like that. But when you look into the

Hebrew, it's Yahweh says to my Adonai, and David is praying that.

Now, it's interesting because the Jews read that back in the day and had basically, they did not grasp what

David was praying. And that was an ongoing discussion into the

New Testament. And it's interesting, when you go to Matthew 22, Jesus quotes that verse as a showstopper to the

Pharisees and the Sadducees that are trying to stump him, make him trip. And he asked, so basically, who is the

Messiah? And they said, the son of David. He's going to proceed from the offspring of David and be a son of David. And they're right.

But then he said, how can David pray to his offspring? Yahweh says to Adonai, my

Lord, how can he pray that if the Messiah is going to be his son? Now, us, we would say, well, it only makes sense if Jesus is divine, that he's eternally exist, so how he can both exist during the time of David and before and after, right?

And it only makes sense in a Trinitarian fashion. Yahweh, which in that context would be

God the Father, speaking to Adonai, the second person of the Trinity. That's pretty interesting, man.

Now, you also showed us like, I think of the passages in Isaiah, that like, you know, the Jews, you know, today, they don't kind of, you know,

I guess, affirm the New Testament, because they don't believe that Jesus was the Messiah. But it kind of would just go that route, or like the old law, it says that this

Messiah will come, will be God. What passage was that that you had quoted? So, I think we went to Isaiah, we went to a number of places.

I think Isaiah 9 -6 was a unique passage that tells us that a son will be born, a child will be given, and then it goes into these descriptors of how this son is going to be called mighty

God, El Gabor, which is later used to describe Yahweh. And he is also everlasting

Father. And we talked about the Hebrew, that means that he is the creator of all things. Was that what you're talking about,

KJ? Yeah, I'm gonna try to find and read it to you so they can hear it. Yeah, excellent passage.

Yeah, so Isaiah 9 -6, it says, for unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government will be upon his shoulders, and his name will be called

Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Now, the increase of his government of peace, there will be no end upon the throne of David over his kingdom.

Now, at first glance, my reading, I'd probably be like, well, this teaching on, you know, modalism, that Jesus is the son and the prophet.

But kind of you said the Hebrew lets us know that, no, it's talking about the father of creation. There's a

John 1 that says, in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God. I'm paraphrasing this, but through him,

I think Colossians says it, Revelation says it, through him all things were created, through Jesus. And so after creation, it wasn't just the

Father, it was the Son and the Spirit, all working in creation. And so here, that's a good passage, man, to think about this doctrine.

Isn't that wonderful? That's typically a Christmas verse, right?

We say that at Christmastime, and it's a great Christmas verse, sure, but there's so much more like we're talking about there. Now, we've mentioned

Genesis, we've mentioned Isaiah, I know you mentioned the baptism, as well as the Great Commission. That's a good one that we see, like, you know, the name of the

Father, Son, and the Spirit. Do you have, like, you know, maybe one or two more verses that kind of teach the doctrine of Trinity? Absolutely.

And I think it's great if we can go to a single verse that illustrates the

Trinity, but like you rightly pointed out, this doctrine is more clearly seen when we appeal to the totality of Scripture, or the analogy of faith, the

Old and New Testament. But there are some good Trinitarian verses. I think it's

John chapter 14, let's see here, verse 26.

I think Jesus is talking to the disciples the night before their crucifixion, and he says here, but the

Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

So, that's wonderful. You see the key distinctions between the Father, Jesus, who is speaking, and the

Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit is referred to as a he, personal pronoun.

So, this is referring to the Holy Spirit not being just an impersonal force, but actually another person.

Some of Paul's closing salutations, he will, you know, depart with people saying, peace be with you, with God, Jesus Christ, and in the love of the

Holy Spirit, things like that. So, there are these triadic expressions that we often see throughout

Scripture. I want to say another Trinitarian verse in the Old Testament. I may have to do some double checking on this, but in Isaiah chapter 11, verse 2, really,

I'll read verse 1 with it. There shall come forth a shoot from the stump of Jesse.

So, it's talking about King David. A branch from his roots shall bear fruit.

So, this branch is a Messianic, this is a Messianic verse, right? And verse 2 says, in the spirit of Yahweh will rest upon him the spirit of wisdom, and understanding the spirit of counsel in mind, and the spirit of knowledge, and the fear of Yahweh.

So, it just seems like that has Trinitarian nature, you know, Messianic prophetic verse there, and it's talking about the spirit, and it's talking about Yahweh.

So, it's cool when we can see verses like that. Now, we kind of talked about this a little bit in that camp, but I think it's kind of interesting because, like, when you think about the three divine persons, people always wonder, well, when

I die, who will I see when we get to heaven? I know you do too, because it's three verses, right? So, I see the Father, the

Son, and the Holy Spirit. You mentioned something I never thought about, that John, I think it's John 1, 18, Jesus said that no one has ever seen the

Father except him himself, and when I think about that, in the

Old Testament, we have what's called Christophanes, and that's basically Christ appearing in the Bible in his pre -incarnate self, and you see that, like, you know,

Moses and Vernon Bush, it says the angel of the Lord appeared to, you know, in the bush. I'm trying to think of what other examples right off my head.

I think Jacob wrestling with the angel of the Lord, that was Jesus. What's my example? I know, like, you basically have, like,

Jesus appearing in the Old Testament a lot of times, but, like, how would you kind of, like, you know, deal with that topic? Yeah, and I'll just be honest with it, here's two.

I'm not, this is something I'm still searching out, but an idea that I'm really, I really like is that all the times that God communicates and makes himself known in the

Old Testament, I tend to think that this is God the Son, because he seems to be the mediating principle between the

Godhead and creation, and I just, I like that principle. Jesus has always been the mediator for mankind, even in these

Old Testament passages, and you do have interesting verses in the New Testament. There's other places in the Gospel of John, but John 1 18 says, no one has ever seen

God, the only God who is at the Father's side. He has made him known, and then

Jesus, you know, would say in John 14 that if you've seen me, you've seen the

Father, so those are interesting verses that just show that Jesus is mediating, has always mediated between God and man, and he will continue to do so into eternity, so I just,

I tend to lean that way. When you see God speaking or Yahweh speaking, I've had

Mormons and people say, well, which member of the Trinity is speaking, or is this all the Godhead?

Well, for one, Yahweh was being personal and distinct from all the pagan nations, revealing himself in a personal way, which is already different than the pagan gods, but just because we don't know if God the

Father or the Son is speaking, or even the Holy Spirit, doesn't mean that one of them is not, and I would actually say we could probably make the case that God the

Son, in fact, is Yahweh speaking in the Old Testament, and, you know, there's something profound that even sinless angels, cherubim, that can't even look on the

Father, you know, in their worship, and this is speculative, but I know

R .C. Sproul brings this out in his book, The Holiness of God. I'm reading a book, The Burning Bush, that he wrote.

We share something, even as fallen man, that are created in the image of God. This would be similar with Adam and Eve in the garden before the fall.

We still share something with those cherub and seraphim that we are created, so there's a profound sense where I'm convinced that we cannot behold the glory of God because we are created, but once again,

Isaiah in the throne room saw Jesus revealed to us in John chapter 12, so I just,

I lean towards the view that says even into eternity, we will see the fullness of Jesus, God the

Son, because he is that mediating principle. Something that probably would be helpful as well is to kind of understand that God is a spirit.

I think that's John 4, and Jesus is the only member, like, of the trinity that took up all flesh, and so he's the actual one, the actual physical person, like, but we do see kind of the

Holy Spirit with a bodily form, but it's kind of unique that, like, you know, the Father we've never seen, like, take upon, you know, bodily or, like, you know, fleshly kind of, you know, characteristics.

I always kind of use an anthropomorphic language, kind of, kind of describe God, but it's never been, like, the

Father, like you said, taking upon flesh or, you know, bodily form. It's always been, like, Jesus or the Holy Spirit.

We kind of see that, so it's kind of questionable to find out, I guess, like you said, but it's kind of interesting, though, if you think about it.

Yeah, we talked about this a little bit when I came down to the BCM, but a lot of people, and there's grace in this, but, like, even in our prayers, we will thank

God the Father for dying on the cross for our sin, and we're like, whoa, wait a second, that was

God the Son who did that, not God the Father, so you're right. We got to, once again, and we ought to desire to handle the

Scripture with precision, to rightly divide it, so when we're praying to God the Father, revering

Him as holy, the way that Jesus taught us how to pray, we want to be biblical, even in our prayers, right, but I kind of jokingly said this, but Romans 8 talks about how the

Holy Spirit intercedes when we don't know how we ought to pray. I've often thought, when I pray unbiblical prayers, the

Holy Spirit has my back. Amen, amen. I know, like, what is it,

Matthew 6, like, the Lord's Prayer, how Jesus teaches us to pray like, you know, Father, to do these things, and so that's kind of, like, where I've done it, but, like,

I like, when we think about this, like, there's different roles in eternity, so, for example, you said, like, the

Son was the one that died, it wasn't the Father, the Spirit that died on the cross. The Son died on the cross, the Spirit created a day.

He's the one that changes people's hearts from deadness to life, and so, when we pray these prayers like that, it's kind of,

I guess, we should be kind of praying to the specific person, the member of the Trinity, but like you said, what's on our side, the

Holy Spirit still kind of helps us. Now, we'll get to our next thing.

So, we talked about, you know, monotheism, that God is one, one in his being, and three in his person. We talk about these three divine persons.

Now, lastly, the equality of these three persons. What does that kind of mean, and kind of how you want to tackle that, man?

Yeah, you know, great question. We're simply appealing to verses, like in John 6, where it says,

God the Father has set his seal on, you know, his people. So, that verse clearly tells us that the

Father is God. A number of places in the New Testament tell us that Jesus is God.

The number of places, one of my favorite is Romans 9, verse 5, Christ came, who is overall the eternally blessed

God. Amen. This verse, along with many other verses, we were talking about John 1, tell us that the

Word became flesh. That Word was with God, and the Word was God. No matter how much, how far you want to push back the beginning of time, the

Word was there. Jesus was there, because he is God. And then, one of the best places to see that the

Holy Spirit is God is in Acts 5. The verse says, why has Satan filled your heart, Peter says to Ananias and Sapphira, to lie to the

Holy Spirit. Once again, you don't lie to rocks, things that are impersonal. You lie to persons. Don't lie, though.

Why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit? Why is it that you've contrived this deed in your heart?

You have not lied to man, but to God. So obviously, you know, we see some,

Peter is a man, right? And they've not lied to man. And he's also saying, but you've lied to God. You've lied to the

Holy Spirit. There's more places. We see the Spirit of God, knowing all things, searching the deep things of God.

So yeah, the Holy Spirit is equally God. And that's where we just appeal to the totality of scripture, to see each of these three persons are distinct from one another, yet that they fully share in that divine nature.

That's awesome, man. I know a good chapter to read, it kind of, I guess, teaches this as well. I know you said

Ephesians 1 through 13. I know people say Paul is very excited writing that because so many times, periods, but he was very excited.

But you look at that, you see kind of every single memory of like the Trinity, and it's kind of cool.

He actually does it right, too. Like each role that the Trinity, you know, member plays, he addresses it rightly. So it's kind of an example for us.

Now, a good topic, somebody's probably wondering, I know we probably did, but I mentioned to you earlier, but, you know, the turn of sonship.

So we're saying that, before I turn to sonship, we're saying that there's one, you know, guys, one is being, but also three is persons.

Well, some people wonder, you know, question, well, has Jesus, the son, was he just the son when he took upon flesh, or has he always been the son?

I'm laying your mic on top of this. So the reason why this is a great question, it's something that's been disputed for the past 2000 years.

And I love John MacArthur, KJ and I both do, and he wrestled through this. He actually changed his view on this over time.

I'm glad he did, by the way. But he initially held to a view called the incarnational sonship, which is the view that, yes, the second member of the

Trinity always existed, but didn't always exist as the son, but just as, and I don't even know how they define it at that point, but became the son at the incarnation.

And MacArthur held that view for a while. And I encourage you to go look up the article that he wrote on how he changed his mind.

He went from the incarnational sonship view to the eternal sonship view. Now, what this means is that the father has eternally been the father, the son has eternally been the son, and the spirit has eternally been the

Holy Spirit. Now, I think, at the end of the day, we want to be biblical, right?

And I think there's a number of places that give us insight to there's an eternal glory that the father and the son held with one another in terms of these relationships.

So, I think John 1 probably is one of the key places to go to that, because you do have this word, this divine logos flesh.

And KJ actually read the verse, verse 18, where it seems like they've been in face -to -face relationship.

That would go back even into eternity past. No one has seen God, the only God, who is at the father's side.

So, literally face -to -face relationship, when you delve into that, those words there.

And then the son, the unique God, the monotheos, monogenes theos, he has exegeted the father.

He has made him known. And we, that's like a bookend to verse 1, which says, in the beginning was the word.

The word was with God. That's key. The word has been in relationship to God.

Now we know verse 18 kind of tells us, tells us the same truth from a different angle.

It kind of tells us the father's side. Well, that tells us the father has been the father from eternity past.

And the son was with the God, the father in eternal relationship.

And the word was God. So, I think that's a good place to get into that.

And then John 17 talks about this eternal relationship of glory that they shared.

So, verse 3, one of my favorite verses, and this is eternal life that they know you, the only true

God in Jesus Christ whom you've sent. And it's just wonderful because a lot of people think eternal life starts, you know, the next line.

No, eternal life starts now. It starts when you know the one true God, which is a triune

God. And, you know, and we see in Jesus Christ whom God has sent. So, Trinitarians, we can get away with referring to the one true

God as referring to the father or the son or the spirit or all three.

So, of course, Jesus and his high priests of prayer, when we see

John here referring to the one true God, referring to the father, of course, Jesus was a monotheist, right?

So, he can refer to the father in that fashion. And so, to have eternal life is to know, to have relationship with the triune

God, to pray to the father, to have relationship with son and the spirit.

So, when you go on in that verse, verse 4, I glorified you on earth and having accomplished the work that you gave me to do,

Jesus says, and now father glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

So, you know, in conclusion here, it's, you know, the father has been the father from eternity past as we kind of see in John 1.

And we see that the son has been at the father's side from eternity past.

And it's the son that's made the father known to man. That's good, man.

Now, just for somebody that's probably wondering, you know, what are they talking about? So, essentially, just kind of a summarization is like, you know, you think about this,

Jesus in his earthly ministry, he had no earthly father. Now, of course, Joseph was his father.

You guys know this, but typically how children are made, you guys know this, a man and woman come together. But that wasn't the case between Jesus.

You guys know, Joseph was ready to kind of, but she was conceived by the

Holy Spirit. And so we know that Jesus' father wasn't Joseph, but it was the father. And so some have said that, like, you know, throughout history that this is the moment where Jesus becomes a son because he had no earthly father.

But what we're saying is that no, Jesus has always been the eternal son throughout the scriptures, but also in eternity past.

That's essentially what we're saying. Now, what's key, a lot of these things for somebody that may have no idea what we're talking about, it could, may not make sense because you might not have understanding of these things because you could not be saved.

And so, Jeremiah, how does, we can probably talk about this together, how does the Trinity work in our salvation?

Well, excellent question. And you already alluded to one of the passages I would go to, to show that the gospel is a

Trinitarian gospel in Ephesians 1, where we read that it's God, the father, predestined, elected a people, check this out, a bride for the son by his grace and mercy, right?

Electing unconditionally something that's nothing good found in us, but by God's own good pleasure and by his grace and his mercy, the gospel find its origin with God, the father in eternity past,

Ephesians 1 says before the foundation of the world. Okay, that's really neat. I mean, I mean, it's wonderful, especially as a

Christian. And then we see in verse five that he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, by the redemption of his blood.

So the gospel's origin is with God, the father, and Jesus Christ accomplishes the gospel, right?

Through his shed blood on the cross. You and I have talked about how he is the perfect savior, right?

This gets in kind of to limited atonement or particular redemption. Jesus is the perfect savior to all that the father has given him.

And he died a substitutionary death on the cross for those who the father gave him, for whosoever believes, for anyone that is going to repent and believe the gospel.

So the origin of the gospel is found with the father, the gospel is accomplished by the son. And then where is it at?

I think in verse 13, we see that believers are sealed by the promise of the

Holy Spirit. So the scripture goes into how the Holy Spirit applies the gospel to believers by regenerating them, indwelling believers and sealing them unto the day of redemption.

So we must understand the gospel is a Trinitarian work. This is at the very core of the gospel message itself.

I think about this, one of those core attributes that each member of the eternity possesses is holy.

And we think about holy, like it's, you know, simply defined as like, you know, being set apart, you know, without sin.

And like, that's the problem that me, you know, me, me, me and dry half, but also like everyone in the world has is that God is holy or unholy.

And because of that, that means that we're sinners and we've sinned against a holy God. And we're deserving of God's wrath.

But what's so special that you're not already in it as the second member of the Trinity came in flesh and died on the cross.

And the law says that like, if you were to keep all these laws, you were going to get life. And Jesus, in fact, the person that he was supposed to get life, but he got death on the cross.

And that was because of, you know, our sins that he paid. And the good thing is so special. I think it's accurate is 521.

It says he who knew no sin became sinner on behalf so that in him may become the righteous of God.

And so all our past, present and future sins for those who are in Christ, Jesus paid for.

And by trusting in that promise that Jesus both God and man, he died and rose again, showing that he was

God, you'll be saved. So that's kind of what the gospel is. And that's kind of, if you don't understand that, then everything we've said is, you know, here on probably what makes no sense.

That's why I wanted to kind of hint at that. So. So true.

Now, Jeremiah, on Monday, he did a debate with, I think, a Roman Catholic about Mary sinless.

Do you know the details of kind of when you have recorded that? So we can upload it. Yeah, go to YouTube and go to the gospel truth.

Marlon does a wonderful job of moderating debates. And I've had the pleasure of getting to talk with him on a personal level.

Loves theology. He's reformed. I don't think he minds me telling people that. But he just does a great job of being loving and kind to his guests.

And he just it's a platform to let kind of lay people or scholars just to interact and to dialogue through, you know, hard issues, but important issues nonetheless.

And so go there. You can also go to my channel on YouTube. I don't really push my

YouTube channel that hard, but I have a lot of content there. And I also have that episode recorded, along with a couple other debates that I've done.

And you can just YouTube my name, Jeremiah Nortier, or I guess. Oh, goodness. I think my YouTube channel is zero.

Jerry Curl zero. I'll probably change that. That was from my high school days.

KJ, you have to forgive me. You got the Jerry Curl, y 'all. Let your soul go.

Have you seen that movie? Oh, what is it? Like, have you heard, like, when someone says let your soul glow?

Have you seen? No, I have not. That's what I think about when I think about Jerry Curl.

Wow, thank you guys so much for listening to us. Hopefully we made your mind. I know summertime so we had to get back and more consistent schedule and be pushing episodes.

I don't think about Jeremiah is very passionate with on presupposition of apologetics. And so I'm going to kind of do a teaching, maybe weekly kind of teaching everyone kind of what that is, and apologetics.

And they were probably also continue to walk into the confession and revelation, hopefully. So be on the lookout for those.

Again, go to his YouTube channel. Say one more time. You can just YouTube my name,

Jeremiah Nortier, and you should be able to find all my content. And I also want to plug

Marlon's channel, The Gospel Truth. Awesome, amazing content there as well. Now, how do you say your last name for somebody has no idea?

It's actually French, I found out, but it's pronounced Nortier, which in the South, we don't we don't say that, but it's

N -O -R -T -I -E -R. All right, guys. So those are the connections we got right there.