Adult Sunday School - Predestination And Marriage

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Lesson: Predestination And Marriage Date: June 2, 2024 Teacher: Pastor Conley Owens

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Dear Holy Father, thank you for this morning. I pray that you will bless our time Considering your word and what it says about marriage.
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We pray that you would help us to understand your truth. Did you see? All right
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Okay, so we've been going through Marriage the topic of marriage and Last time we were looking at Ephesians 5 and how it talks about marriage being
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Defined by the relationship between Christ and the church that not being merely an arbitrary analogy, but really
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Intentionally being created by God as a reflection of Christ in the church, and if that's the case and let me go ahead and read
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Ephesians 5 23 for the husband is the head of the life as Christ also is the head of the church being himself the
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Savior of the body And we saw how Paul is observing that not even just the things he knows
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About marriage are similar to the union between Christ and church But even the things he doesn't know are similar, which means that there is an organic connection there that is not
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Is not just being imposed on this as as we might see with other analogies that are made in Scripture Now if that's the case, then what's the best way to to learn about marriage?
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Certainly, you can learn about marriage by Observing human marriage and the way God has made nature He's baked in a lot of the realities that are supposed that we're supposed to understand even pagans have marriage right even outside of Church, it's a creation ordinance.
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It's not a church ordinance. It's not a government ordinance and so if even
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Pagans have marriage they can understand marriage through nature, but we can understand marriage more fully if we are
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Looking at the union between Christ and the church and seeing how to apply that to marriage
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Now we went over some rules some hermeneutics hermeneutics mean Interpretation of how you would apply it.
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For example When we look at the nature of Christ in the church and apply that to how we should understand marriage
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First of all clear passages of Scripture interpret less clear passages of Scripture yeah, just because we have certain analog ways that analogy is used does not mean that that is a
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Providing good ethics for us if we have other passages that clearly say the opposite secondly the purpose the purposes of marriage as defined in Genesis 1 and 2 and Genesis 9 even
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Demonstrate There's also put constraints on how we should read that analogy, right if if some application
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I think the example I gave last time was oh, well this betrothal Last 2 ,000 years. Maybe we should have very long betrothals
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Well, that would not be a good application because that goes against the purposes of marriage. The purpose is once again being
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With the increase of legitimate offspring the prevention of uncleanness and the mutual health of husband and wife
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It would it would work against all three of those if you were to have too long of a betrothal period or an engagement
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Okay, so today I just want to look at the topic of Predestination Right.
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So predestination breaking that down to the notion that second Peter 110 speaks of election and calling election calling
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So if we were supposed to look at the union between Christ and church and then make applications to marriage It makes sense for us to just walk through How Christ has saved the church and say ask ourselves, you know, are there any applications for marriage?
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and so I'd like to start that all the way at the beginning of salvation right with election and calling and a couple of terms that might be helpful for you the
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Order of salvation and a person's personal night life is usually known called the order of salutis right, so First you are, you know first you're regenerate then you're justified and you're sanctified then eventually you're glorified, you know
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That's just the order of salutis. There's also what's known as the history of salutis, which is the history of salvation
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Which is the the story of how Christ saved the church. So, you know, yeah He's elected us and he came in time and then he and then he left and he will return again
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You know, this is the story of salutis. So we're going to be walking primarily through the History of salutis also taking into account some of that order of salutis and a person's individual life and ask ourselves what applications are there for the church and this is
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This is something where if you look at modern authors, they're a lot less willing to do this I find that modern authors are very very hesitant to try to Read too much into the text right like they're willing to do it when
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Paul says it directly But when he doesn't say it directly they don't want to do it The thing is Paul is trying to give us like a whole framework to work with Right instead of only take what he gives us directly and then not use the rest of that framework
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Would be negligent even though it can be it can be difficult and so we want to do it soberly But at the same time we want to take full advantage of what
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Paul is Offering us here and trying to point to this connection between Christ and church. So let's let's talk about election
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Okay, so very beginning of the story of salutis Election this takes place outside of time, you know before time as it were as though you could have the time before time and Yeah, God Father Son and Spirit have covenanted together to save the people of their choice the church
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This is known as election, of course, so Once again, you know if our understanding of marriage is supposed to be rooted in salvation
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You know that phrase that we read He himself is the Savior of the body if that notion of salvation is supposed to inform us about marriage
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This is a key part of salvation. It's worth considering as Applying to marriage. It's not an unrelated topic
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All right. So let's let's talk about election first. Let's talk about the father Electing so in our own culture
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Typically parents often have very little Interaction with with the bride and groom or very little involvement
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With the process of choosing a spouse right in our culture It's you know off the college and hopefully you find somebody right?
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That's about or maybe a little bit of instruction beforehand. Maybe a lot of parents don't give any instruction, right?
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They leave that to the health class In your high school, but let's look at how the father is involved with this choosing of a bride for the son
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Well, actually sorry, what's um Let me let me go through some of the biblical examples where you have the father's involvement in human marriages, right and this is this was the norm in biblical times as well as a lot of a
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Lot of times past a lot of cultures that aren't our own even in our current time Genesis 24 for but you shall go to my country to my relatives and take a wife for my son
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Isaac This is Abraham speaking to a servant Genesis 28 to says Arise go to Padana Ram to the house of Bethul your mother's father and take a wife there from the daughters of Laban your mother and that's
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Jacob There and then Genesis 38 6 and Judah took a wife her
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Fort sorry took a wife for her his firstborn and her name was Tamar So it describes it describes the father as taking a life for the son
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Okay, so you have you have a couple of examples on of this and even in the case where the man had chosen the bride for himself
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He still asked for parents participation and judges 14 to this is Samson and he came up and told his father and his mother and Said I have seen a woman in Timna of the daughters of the
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Philistine now Therefore get her for me as a wife, right? I've chosen someone now you chose her choose her for me, right?
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It's interesting how that works. And so Scripture speaks of God's election of the church
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Of the father's election Ephesians 1 4 says Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love
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Having foreordained us to the adoption of sons through Jesus Christ to himself According to the good pleasure of his will to the praise of his glory
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Of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed upon us in the beloved And then second
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Thessalonians 2 13 says but we are bound to give thanks to God always for you brothers beloved of the
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Lord For God chose you from the beginning to salvation and sanctification of the Spirit and of belief in the truth
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Okay, so the Bible talks about God Electing the church right choosing the church of God the father specifically
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John 6 39 and John 10 talk about him not just Electing the church but electing him electing her for his son
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John 6 39 says in this is the will of him that sent me That of all that which he has given me
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I should lose nothing but should raise it up at the last day Right. So the father is giving the bride to the son
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John 10 28 and I give to them eternal life and they will never perish and no one will snatch them out of my hand
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My father who has given them to me is greater than all and no one is able to snatch them out of the father's hand
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Okay, so the father's father is giving The bride to the son Okay, so I Understand that a lot of this feels like it's just totally cultural, but it's it's really worth considering you know if you have not only a biblical pattern people were doing in the time, but even even the marriage of between Christ and church union between Christ and church incorporates
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The father's involvement does that have implications? I believe it does Proverbs 22 6 talks about us raising our children in the way that they should go and they won't depart from it
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Does is not marriage, you know a significant part of of them making that transition to adult life
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I know that once again in our culture a lot of times marriages delayed so far They've been adult for a long time before they get married and actually
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I'm gonna mention this a few times I think that's that's a really important thing to consider as you're reading all this because a lot of this is happening
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While the children are still technically minors, I guess and would need parental approval for things, right?
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And so that's going to Once again that's going to guard the way that we interpret this right do we interpret this is saying
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Oh a father must give his approval. Well, if the children are minors, yeah, you know if the children are not are not
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You know if they're being betrothed at a stage that is before they're Before they're even ready for marriage, right?
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And then on top of that the marriage itself is happening at a fairly early age where where they're both part of their parents household still
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Yeah, it would require Absolute it absolutely require permission, right?
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We'll talk about this some of this later How the how we should consider the importance of the father's blessing
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Okay. So anyway, it is important for parents to lead them the way they should go If you look all the way back even at the even at the first marriage you might say well
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Adam didn't have a father you know But but Luke 338 says his father was
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God and God did indeed choose his wife for for Adam All right
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Yeah, so this is more than just offering advice right which is typically, you know Fathers there when the son when the son asked for advice and the father will give advice
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Now this is more this is more involvement I think it would be good for parents to be involved in helping their children choose by more than just offering advice, but even eating being involved in their church in such a way that they're aware of Young women you're young or if you're a parent of a woman a young Young woman that you would be aware of people in your church network
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You know as a church It's good to be a part of association so that we're you know Connected with other churches and part of the larger body and it's not just you know
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The world of marriage isn't just something that's like out there in in college or in the secular world, right?
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but something that's able to flourish in the church with the guidance of Older people in the churches and especially especially parents
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And this would also include prayer, of course parents should be praying for their children to And the choice of their spouse
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Genesis 24 7 Abraham says Jehovah the God of heaven who took me from my father's house and from the land of my nativity
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Who's and who spoke to me? So he's communicating with God and who swore to me saying to your seed
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I will give this land he will send his angels before you and you shall take a wife for my son from there He likewise required his servant to do the same by requiring an oath of him
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Sorry that was reading my own handwriting there and Genesis 24 to says and Abraham said to his servant the elder of his house that ruled over all that he had
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Please put your hand under my thigh and I will make you swear by Jehovah Swearing being you know a form of you know, soliciting
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God. So another kind of prayer in a sense the God the
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God of heaven and the God of earth that you will not take away from my son of the daughter of the Canaanites among whom I dwell and More prayer you see the servant praying later
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Oh Jehovah the God of my master Abraham Please send me a good speed this day and show kindness to my master
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Abraham behold I'm standing by the fountain of water And the daughters of the men of the city are coming out to draw water and let it come to pass that the damsel to whom
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I will say please let down your pitcher that I may drink and she will say drink and I will water your camels
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Also, let the same be she who you have appointed for your servant Isaac and by this I will know that you have shown
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Kindness to my master once again, you know, there need to be guards here I'm not saying that we should be asking for miraculous signs to determine who spouses are or things like that.
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But Yeah, it should be if you're a parent or if one day you are a parent You should be praying for your for your children to find an excellent wife or an excellent husband
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I was I was personally blessed. I knew my parents were I mean I heard them frequently You know when I was a small child praying for for me to find a good wife
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Eventually and I did, you know, I do believe God answered the prayer So any any questions on that?
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I know the way we're going about this might feel really different than how you've heard marriage taught on before So and we're and a lot of this feels pretty countercultural to say, you know
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The father should be fairly involved in this and this is I don't see this as like a controlling thing. I see this as you know
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Positively offering real help that I would have found really valuable, you know if I were Like I said, my parents prayed for me
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But once you know once I was out I was kind of on my own Figuring things out on my own meeting whoever I happen to meet any any questions about this before we move on.
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Yeah right, so he so In this when
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I say predestination, I'm I'm putting together election and calling so right now we're talking about election
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Which is the choosing now for knowing? That's an interesting word because sometimes the
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Bible talks about I Have to go look at the examples, but whenever it uses for know as a verb the object is a person right who is foreknown and so it suggests a
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It's not, you know, just his knowledge of the future, but it is his
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Like Celtic knowledge of someone like an act of saving knowledge now maybe
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I Know I'm not answering your question if you want to try asking again, maybe I could uh Yeah, well, obviously, yeah, obviously we can't you know, we can't
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For know anything in that way But if election refers to choosing right it's God choosing his people before time
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He has chosen a people that has implications for us choosing and so that's that's the way I'm flattening this out to make it
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Make sense and so for knowing would also just involve that choosing Okay, oh
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Yes Yeah, that's totally reasonable
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I mean your mother is a believer right and yeah, you could ask her to Pray for you.
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You could even say, you know, I'm interested in marriage. Do you know any you know?
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Yeah, any godly women who you would recommend to me, you know I I think I think parents would typically be honored by you know that request a lot of people feel a
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Lot of a lot of parents have this thing where because their parents were too controlling They don't want to be too controlling and they will like just avoid this at all costs, right?
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I noticed some of that with my own parents right that I have to I Have to give them permission for involvement in my life that I don't feel like I should necessarily have to give
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But you know some some my grandparents were a bit too controlling and so they're trying to be extra careful
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Right, so I think a parent a lot of parents typically Some of them are not involved because of apathy some of them are not involved because they're afraid of crossing boundaries, right?
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And so Yeah, I think a parent would appreciate the request for help All right.
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Next son's election. So this is Yeah election is not just the father father son and spirit
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And yeah, because of the inseparable operations, it's known as the inseparable operations of the trainees God is one being then none of the persons of the
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Trinity can act In a way that's you know entirely independent of the others
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Yeah, there's no While there's certain activities you might attribute particularly to one like typically we attribute election particularly to the father
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Or there are some actions that are particularly to the son because of his humanity, you know as far as God acting
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His operations are inseparable so all of them are are electing even though that's particularly attributed to the father
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And so we see this, of course Yeah, and In for example
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Jacob, right he was supposed to he was supposed to go select from the daughters to lay them So you have parents involvement, you know
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Parent is this is not an arranged marriage where the parent is, you know choosing without any input, you know, absolute authority, right?
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the parent is the parent is Helping the son choose in those in those biblical examples and to be clear.
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Hopefully hopefully this is already clear I'm not saying that like whatever existed whatever culture existed in biblical time we need to like resurrect that from the dead and operate it with it exactly but In as much as it is a reflection of of the picture of the union between Christ and church
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We should really so really consider whether or not that that was there for a good reason Okay Yes, so the the husband's choice of his wife demonstrate the special love for her
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Obviously, you know, why do you why does a man choose a particular bride because he has a special love for her
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All right, John 15 16 Jesus says you did not choose me But I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide
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That whatever you will ask of the father in my name he may give it to you All right, so while That choosing of a spouse is mutual, you know, it's not like the man gets to choose him
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The wife isn't also choosing the husband There is a there is an initiative that we see with the man here and you know exists in our own culture, too
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It's the man who you know proposes and and gives the ring etc Right. This is not just some arbitrary culture and it would be just as good if it were the other way around It really is reflective of something true in the way that God has designed humanity
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That the man be the one to to initiate that proposal in that way Yeah, and that it should have some
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That should have some presence in the pre -engagement Stage of the relationship as well, and that's not to say that a woman can't
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Express some interest before the man does you see with Ruth, you know There's a like I'm available kind of thing and then you know
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After she does that then the man takes the lead and so I'm not saying that that I've heard
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I've heard some people suggest that you know Like like women should show no interest in minutes until until the man shows interest in her first, right?
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And it's like just over reading all of this And you you've got plenty of examples in the Bible where you know that good examples where that's not the way things are happening
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But yeah, it's good for the man to show initiative Yeah, and notice that Proverbs 18 22 was it talked about doesn't talk about a wife finding a good husband
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It talks about a husband finding a good wife. Whoever finds a wife finds a good thing and obtains favor from Jehovah All right
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Yeah And also it's more common to speak of a man marrying a woman Like it's another cultural aspect more common to speak of a man marrying a woman than it is to speak of a woman marrying a
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Man, I don't know if you've ever noticed that before There's something this something feminists really hate because they when they if you've ever heard the phrase and I know you have
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Don't objectify women that originally was not referring to treating women as inanimate objects
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It refers to treating women as the objects of sentences where men are the subject, right?
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And so the husband marrying a woman Is that's that's objectifying women and you know older feminist literature
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But that's what they're what they're balking at There is the is the biblical picture you see between Christ and the church where he is the primary one doing choosing even though There's mutual consent.
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He is the he's the one initiating Okay Yeah, and so that's this gives a special weight to the to the husband's role, you know
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He should be especially a man searching for a wife should be especially, you know, praying seeking wisdom exercising wisdom in that selection you know if he
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Not that not that a couple should ever look at themselves as a bad pairing and then decide that it can't work out
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But you know if a couple finds themselves in a in a marriage relationship where they realize they hadn't thought it through as well
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As they ought to have Yeah, the burden for that falls particularly on the man All right, any questions about that any questions about the son's election
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Yes yeah, we'll be talking about and of course that will be more apparent and Yeah subsequent sections when we talk about About how the passage talks about women, but just But yeah, we're gonna we're gonna talk about consent essentially in this session.
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Yeah, we'll get to that some today All right, the Spirit's election. All right.
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What about the Spirit doesn't the Spirit also elect? Yes, the Spirit does also elect does that invalidate this analogy because who would the
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Spirit be if you got father? You know father son who is the Spirit in this whole analogy?
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All right. Well, first of all, yes, but yes the Spirit elects first Peter 1 1 Peter an apostle of Jesus Christ to the elect who are sojourners of the dispersion and Pontus Galatia Cappadocia Asia and Bithynia first Peter 1 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the
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Father and sanctification of the Spirit to Obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ grace to you and peace be multiplied
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So he talks about he says according to the foreknowledge of God the Father in sanctification of the Spirit so God's foreknowing right
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God's election is in the sanctification of the Spirit. The Spirit is also participating in election and So, how do we yeah, how do we think about?
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What what how do we apply that to marriage? first Corinthians 2 11
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Speaks of the Spirit as the mind of Christ For who among men knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him
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Even so the things of God none knows except the Spirit of God For who has known the mind of the
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Lord that he should instruct him. Well, we have the mind of Christ Right, so so there in verse 11 you have the saying that No one knows the things of a man except for his spirit and talks about the
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Spirit of God Knowing the things of God so the Spirit is the mind of God and then later on in verse 16 It says that we have the mind
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Christ meaning we have the Spirit Right It's me
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Okay, and so the so what does that mean that there should be In that choice, there should be a real volition a real, you know willingness and desire
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Not just a not just a mechanical Selection, you know off an assembly line
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Implies. Yeah, it implies more of a heartfelt choice All right.
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Now, let's talk about the basis of divine election God frequently Mentioned that he has chosen us not on anything in us
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Ephesians 1 11 Says in whom we were also in whom also we were made an inheritance having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will
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Alright, and so according to the counsel of his will gives us this idea that you know
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If we were to think of God anthropomorphically as though he were a man His considerations and deliberations are not are not looking outside himself, but rather within himself
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You know, he how does he determine what he does based on the counsel of his own will? Right and scripture repeats us many times that this is it's based on the counsel of his own will rather than any inherent goodness in us
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Romans 9 16 says so then it is not of them him that wills or of him that runs but of God who has mercy 2nd
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Timothy 1 9 says he who saved us and called us with a holy calling not according to our works
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But according to his own purpose in grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before times eternal
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Ephesians 2 8 says or by grace you have been saved through faith and not out of yourselves It is the gift of God one more
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John 3 8 the wind blows where it wills and you hear it But do not know from where it comes and where it goes.
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So is everyone who is born of the Spirit Meaning that you know, it's not it's not the rich that God chooses.
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It's not those who seem the most humble Yeah, it's by the will of the Spirit so Consider What our confession says our church's confession?
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Those of mankind that are predestined to life God before the foundation of the world was laid according to his eternal and immutable purpose and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will has
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Chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory out of his mere free grace and love Without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto
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Yeah, so this in this This design of God's to choose without any basis in us
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Continues through the order salutes to write the order of salvation and we see that repeatedly in the confession to let me
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Let me read several things so 8 .8 in our confession says Christ unites himself to his people without any condition foreseen in them to procure it 10 .2
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says this effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone Not from anything at all foreseen in man nor from any power or agency in the creature 11 .1
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says those whom God effectually calls he also freely justifies not for anything wrought in them or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone and 11 .3
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says Christ was given by the Father for them freely not for anything in them All right, and someone might object and say well now at this point
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I mean, we're talking about election of individuals and when we talk about the church being the bride we're talking about corporate election
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You can't really have individual election without corporate election. He's choosing the whole people for himself Deuteronomy 7 7 speaking of corporate election says
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Jehovah did not set his love on you nor choose you Because you were more in number than any other people for you were the fewest of all people
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So even in the corporate election of Israel, it's not because of the goodness in them All right. So let me ask you a hard question now, and I want
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I'm hoping for good answers. How could this apply to a husband choosing a wife?
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Does this mean the husband should have no consideration just whatever? What Yeah Try to I would
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I would like you all to try to make some application before I do On what this would mean for for us and choosing a spouse
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All right, so he chooses. Yeah, but but the basis of election Okay, we're talking about that right now.
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We're talking about the basis of election not being anything found in us What would that what would that entail for husbands and wives?
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I? Mean it seems it seems obvious enough that we shouldn't be So choosing without any basis, right, but how do you
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You got a thought? Okay.
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Yeah less external things maybe okay All right, let me let me throw this out here first of all
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God is not Choosing on no basis at all. All right, no basis in us, but he's choosing according to counsel of his will
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He does have some reason right and we don't he hasn't fully disclosed to us what that is But he has disclosed the main purpose right?
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The main purpose is for his own glory Isaiah 43 6 it says
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I will say to the north give up and to the south do not keep them back Bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the end of the earth
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Everyone who is called by my name and whom I have created for my glory whom I have formed. Yes whom
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I have made All right So he is choosing on Some basis, you know his counsel of his own will something we don't fully understand but for the sake of his own glory and so what
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I think the I think the application here if you really meditate on what's going on is he is not
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Choosing the bride based on her present status, but on the potential status on what could be through that union
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He intends to make her beautiful. He intends to make her excellent And so he chooses her not on the basis of what she is but on the basis of what what she can be through that union
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Ephesians 525 says husbands love your wives even as Christ has also loved the church and gave himself up for it
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Ephesians 526 says that he might sanctify it having cleansed it by the washing of the water with the word All right, so and we see this throughout scripture right like the weakness of God's church the weakness of his individual people.
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It's not necessarily a bad thing It is the platform on which he displays his strength right, and this is and this is just how
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The Bible speaks of of women too as being the weaker sex, right? This isn't just oh
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They are lacking, you know scriptures not just saying that women are inferior in this way
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It this is a this is I didn't dynamic that is supposed to exist in order for there to be a more glorious union
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Where there is a giving and receiving etc All right Some other things about God Second Corinthians 12 9 and he said to me my grace is sufficient for you for my power is made perfect in weakness
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Most gladly therefore. I will rather boast in my weakness that the power of Christ may rest on me, you know
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Paul Satisfied with his weakness because he knows that that is good for the glory of Christ 1st Corinthians 1 30 but of him you are in Christ Jesus who is made to us wisdom from God and righteousness and sanctification and redemption that According as it is written he who boasts let him boast in the
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Lord okay, so a Yeah, so what you see with God choosing this bride is not based on what she is
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But based on how he can demonstrate his goodness with her All right, and so Yeah as we consider what this implies, you know think about how how foolish it would be it with a man who
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Is and I get that in our culture It's a little it's a little harder to imagine this because we have so many careers that are available
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To those without like a lot of physical strength, right? But But if you have the capacity to work hard and provide why would you look at a woman in a low?
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Socio -economic condition as a man and say oh, I'm I'm not interested in her because she's in a low
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Socioeconomic condition is not that an opportunity to be the provider as as the
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Bible describes right and is not that And not just I'm saying that this is like Oh a tolerable lack that you could find in a woman
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I'm saying this could be a platform for the goodness of that union to involve giving You know in a receiving and a in a in a building up of one another
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Now once again, I'm not saying there could be there aren't real things, you know, we're we're we're limited here.
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We are not Omnipotent as Christ is, you know, he can take something totally worth it and build it into something great.
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We have we we have limits But still the idea being we should be thinking about the potential with the
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Union not what things are without the Union You know, it might be the case we're talking about socio economics
35:13
There might be a case where well a woman who's I'm not saying that a man who is very well educated and likes sophisticated conversation should
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You know necessarily marry someone who's not going to be able to converse with him at a level that would support
35:28
Him in the ways that he would like to be supported So I'm not saying that like all these standards go out the window. What I'm saying is that And you know all notions of compatibility go out the window.
35:38
What I'm saying is that yeah, we should consider How the man can give and how can
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I can be a good thing The same is why it applies the spiritual status as well.
35:49
You know, I've talked to a number of guys who have been very, you know, they've talked to women and been just completely disinterested because They weren't already, you know aligned with them and the kind of doctrine that we have at our church, you know
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They aren't already Calvinist. They aren't already etc Well, you know if they if they have a gentle and quiet spirit and they just haven't been raised and haven't been led in that Direction, is this not something that you as a man could provide right?
36:15
Do you really want a pre -led woman, right? Oh men are supposed to be leaders. Do you want a woman who's already been?
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Who doesn't need anything right like is that is that really the marriage you want to enter? That's not what the
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Bible describes. It's a marriage. We should be entering It's one where the man actually has an opportunity to give and that's that's an exciting and good thing
36:35
Yes Like it could yeah, that could be the case now
36:44
He is offering less in that situation, right? Like he's not necessarily offering her stability or whatever, right?
36:51
and so it's going to that in itself could feel potentially emasculating right but But I'm not saying that that one little thing like throws it all out the window
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Right, but in general but in general a man should be part of his Selection should be a woman that he has he has something to offer.
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God made him to be a provider protector, etc Right, and so if you find someone who has no need for provision has no need for you know
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Spiritual leadership has no need for any of those things. What are you gonna do as a husband? Like it's not Like she might be the most beautiful woman.
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She might be a lot of things but like You're not gonna you're not gonna feel like a good husband You're not gonna have that joy of giving that God made men to have yeah
37:37
It does It does Right.
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Yeah. Yeah, Sarah came from a much more wealthy family than I came from. So I yeah so I you know like but that was not uh
37:53
Yeah, but I definitely feel like I am you know, I I'm giving it to her, you know I'm helping her.
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I think that we are we are both better together than we are apart Yeah, oh
38:19
Sure, right. Yeah, we shouldn't we shouldn't join a union with someone's not Christian the
38:26
Right. Well, I do think it's good to share the gospel you see it Yeah, I don't I mean you can do that with pure motives, you know, you might be
38:34
Yeah concerned that you're I know guys who don't want to share the gospel with beautiful women because they feel like That they're only doing it to you know because of their interest in them, but No, like I don't think there's anything wrong with that, you know share share the gospel with them and say, you know, they convert that's great
38:53
That's why I did with Sarah. She wasn't a believer when we met Right, and so what you're looking for is
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One way I say this sometimes is trajectory over maturity, you know what excited me about Sarah when we
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When we met and especially after she became a believer, but we didn't by the way We didn't start dating until after she was believer
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I knew that that was that would be wrong to enter into any kind of relationship like that before but she was
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There were all kinds of there were all kinds of really wrong on biblical ideas She had but whenever I would show her the
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Word of God and what it said about it She would she wouldn't hesitate she would change she would change her mind on all of it.
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And so that was I Knew that that could that could go places, right? That was very exciting.
40:08
So First Peter 3 for the woman has a gentle and quiet spirit meaning, you know is is able to be led in that way
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Those are those are good things and Yeah, that's it adds to the glory of the marriage.
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It's a good thing. You know, I Yeah, I appreciate what I have with Sarah for those things.
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I don't see those as all man This were real road bumps along the way. I know they're good things that I cherish
40:36
Yeah, and I'll point out I'll point out here that a lot of times like if you listen to Especially right now.
40:43
There's all kinds of weird youtubers giving dating advice and stuff like that and there's a lot of talk about women being hypergamous, you know, which means marrying up and And I'll talk about it in really crass ways that Talk about marriage is like a game or a marketplace
40:58
But there is there is Some truth to that like they might be talking about it in crass ways
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But behind it all is a dynamic that is there in Christ in the church about about the man's role being
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To pull up that woman in such a way right Okay.
41:19
So yeah, there's all kinds of there's all kinds of ways that a man would not have the capacity to Simply Bring the woman up in a way that would be
41:34
Appropriate that would make them, you know a good union Like you see in Christ in the church him being omnipotent and being able to do that with the church is not something that any of us are but Yeah, hopefully that principle is clear, right?
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The principle here about the basis of election is not that you should just have no Have no consideration of who she is, but that it should be one
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Yeah, that should take into account the potential for that. You know, all right a lot of stuff.
42:06
I know once again Probably is not what you're used to hearing. So any any questions before I move on to effectual calling?
42:15
All right, yeah, it's actually effectual calling. Okay. So in addition to God electing us right he effectually calls us
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Our confession 10 .1 says those whom God has predestined unto life. He is pleased and has appointed an accepted time effectually to call by his word and spirit out of the state of sin and death in which they are by nature to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ Enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God taking away their heart of stone and giving
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To them a heart of flesh renewing their wills and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good and effectually drawing them
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To Jesus Christ yet. So they come most freely being made willing by his grace so as we consider the
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Historia salutis Effectual calling is usually something considered in the order salutes because it happens in the individual
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But it has been something that God has been doing since the fall and so I think it makes sense to speak of it here So, yeah, this effectual calling is often called drawing
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Let's see Now it might seem yeah, it might seem odd to Apply this to marriage once again, but consider
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John 6 44 No, man can come to me except the father that sent me draw him and I will raise him up on the last day once again inseparable operations
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You know The Son and Spirit are involved as well and I if I'm lifted up from the earth will draw all men to myself
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That's John 12 32 and then Titus 3 4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and his love toward man appeared not by works done in righteousness
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Which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy he saved us Through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the
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Holy Spirit All right, so Yeah, yeah, the
44:13
Holy Spirit also being involved in that Transforming of mind that draws us to that draws us to God and then also
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Bible speaks of Jesus as a king, right? and what is the role of the King our confession and 8 .10
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says we need his kingly office to convince the dew draw uphold deliver and preserve us to his heavenly kingdom
44:34
So, you know as a result what how do we think about this in marriage?
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Is it not right for the man to do, you know, the wooing in a lot of senses? once again, not a problem for a woman to express interest, but Most people recognize that when the when a woman
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Acts as forwardly as it might be appropriate for a man to act that would be you know More seductive and the role of the seductress it is this isn't just mere cultural norms, you know
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These things are rooted in in What we see between Christ and the church And also
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Part of that effectual calling is the transforming of mind to be persuaded right so that we are persuaded to love
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God And so what does this say? Well, it's not like I said this this selection is not just one directional
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It's coming from the other direction too. There's a mutual consent a lot of people
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You know, we've been talking about election a lot a lot of people Misrepresent that as a saying that God draws people kicking and screaming into the kingdom of heaven
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Not the case. He transforms them so that they come willingly by his grace Yeah, and people are called in Scripture God's people are called in Scripture willing volunteers
45:54
Psalm 1 10 3 your people offer themselves Willingly in the day of your power and holy array out of the womb of the morning you have the dew of your youth and so the son's election and drawing of his church does not
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Negate the willing consent on the part of the church Song of Solomon 2 16 says my beloved is mine and I am his he feeds his flock among the lilies
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My beloved is mine and I am his you know, there's a there's a mutual love and consent there
46:23
Right, and so there have been coerced marriages throughout history. That's that's wrong for obvious reasons
46:29
Like I said on this all of this you can just get from nature itself But God has given us extra revelation by teaching us
46:36
The of it being rooted in and the union between Christ and the church So it's already obvious that coerced marriages are wrong
46:43
However, this gives additional evidence that coerced marriages are wrong is once you realize
46:49
Oh Factual calling is a representation of how these unions come about All right, and then let's talk about the father's approval.
46:58
So not only the Children's mutual consent I say children because you know children of a father in this relationship
47:06
But let's talk about the father's approval Okay, he has given that approval to the son and the son
47:16
Yeah, he is. Sorry He gives the church of the Sun and he gives the Sun to the church Romans 8 32 says he who do not spare his own son, but delivered him up for us all
47:24
How will you not also with him freely give us all things so he is given the church's son but then in John 6 39
47:32
And this is the will of him that sent me that of all which he has given me I should lose nothing but raise it up on the last day so God is the
47:40
Once again, you know the analogy breaks down here a little because God is the common father of both the church and the
47:46
Sun in John 2017 Jesus says Do not touch me for I'm not yet ascended to the father
47:53
But go to my brothers and say to them I sent to my father and your father and my God and your
47:58
God so The father in this picture. It's the same father for both the bride and the groom
48:07
So, what does this Entail for marriages once again, you know, there's some limitations obviously having the same father makes us a little bit different But yeah, there is a there is a role in the parent
48:22
Giving approval and You know our custom of having the father walk the bride down is not without place
48:30
Given that you know, we just talked about the father's role in election Representing something about a human father's participation in the
48:37
Sun's Selection of the spouse if that if that is implicit already, then it makes sense that there is a response from the other party
48:45
Right with the with the father of the bride having that role in the wedding Yeah, now
48:53
I asked the question a minute ago does Does this mean you know, given that we see the father's approval?
49:00
Does this mean that such approval is necessary a lot of people I know even hear a lot of you know Other reform
49:05
Baptist teach that that the father's approval is absolutely necessary. There's some good teachers out there who say, you know
49:13
Like I think I think it was Paul Walsher who said that his father -in -law did not approve and so he he did not
49:21
Yeah, he didn't move forward until I don't know how much time passed before the father -in -law approved But there's a lot of people, you know in reform
49:28
Baptist Church who would say the father has absolute authority even even well into adulthood Is that is that the way that we should?
49:36
Think about that. Once again, just like Christ is an omnipotent and so we are not Omnipotent to change things and that has gives limitations for how we apply this.
49:46
Yes, man. Oh Okay, all right, but he would have waited years, you know the way he was talking
49:55
All the same my same way, you know human fathers, I'm not omni sapient all wise like God is all wise so first of all
50:02
Human fathers are not always right. So that's one thing to consider Secondly as I mentioned before a lot of what you see in Scripture and what's modeled in Scripture is a picture where Both parties are still part of their parents household and fairly young and such absolute
50:19
Approval would make make a lot more sense, you know, even in our own country if you want to get married at 17 You know, you need your parents or approval in most states, right?
50:27
I think that's how it works You would need your parents approval and so it makes sense that you would see this more frequently in the biblical picture where it's happening at earlier ages, but that does not mean that You know a full -grown
50:43
Adult, you know well into adulthood a person would need the would absolutely need the approval of their their parents even though it's still good
50:52
Yeah, one thing I often say is that you should you should honor your father and my mother by giving them a good legacy
50:57
Not this which is not necessarily the legacy. They think that they should have right? That's not necessarily what the good legacy is
51:07
Let me let me give you two more direct scriptural proofs of this first In first Corinthians 734
51:14
It says so also the woman that is unmarried and the virgin is concerned about the things the Lord that she may be
51:21
Holy both in body and in spirit, but she who is married is concerned about the things of the world How she may please her husband and so what's that?
51:27
What's the contrast here the woman who is married versus the woman who is not married, right? This is talking about people who decide to go into adulthood unmarried
51:34
The difference is, you know concerned about her husband versus concerned about the Lord It's not concerned about her husband versus concerned about her father
51:41
It's not you know this, you know everlasting headship thing that a lot of people refer to Secondly first Corinthians 739 a wife is bound for so long as her husband lives, but the husband is dead
51:54
She is free to be married to whom she will only in the Lord To whom she will not to whom her father will a
52:02
Lot of times what you'll see in the circles to where they advocate for that kind of absolute authority of a father is well
52:07
She doesn't have a father then she needs to find You know some person who plays the role of the father like her pastor or something the pastor has absolute authority
52:14
And I think this is all going way beyond what said and I think we've got direct texts there that that Give the woman her own authority but all the same the
52:25
Yeah, of course, there is there is a good thing and having a father's approval in marriage and ideally that would that would exist
52:34
Even if it's not absolutely necessary. So hopefully We're gonna we're gonna keep going talking about more aspects of salvation how they would have the implications for marriage
52:45
This is challenging good But uh, yeah, hopefully hopefully you can understand that I'm trying to approach this the way
52:53
I've been doing a lot of reading and the Reformers and how they approach marriage. I'm trying to approach it in the same way of Really being willing to take
53:00
Paul's framework and apply it more broadly than Paul Because if he's giving us the tools to work with and I want to try to expand that more
53:16
Okay parents that aren't Christians right
53:46
So some of this is guided by the fact that Man shall leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife
53:52
So that that kind of authority right does not exist every now You're still to honor your father and mother that that obligation considered continues
54:00
But what is but honoring is not absolute obedience And it's not even at that at that stage in your life.
54:08
It's not even obedience in the Lord, right because When I say in the Lord, I mean
54:15
Qualified by something that is good so Let's let's take this back to before you're married right before you're married to what degree should you obey your parents?
54:26
Ephesians 6 1 says the children should obey their parents in the Lord So meaning that as long as it's not in disobedience to God now disobedience to God is not just the you know
54:36
The Most substantial breaking of the Ten Commandments that you can find
54:41
There are a lot of things that would be dishonoring God and honestly I believe that not pursuing marriage is the good thing that it is would be dishonoring to God So I don't think you it the the child who decides that his parent has absolute authority
54:56
Over over his life in that way and does not pursue the good things that God has told him to pursue I think he's actually disobeying
55:01
God in that circumstance Not as only just obeying God But if his the way a child is supposed to honor there and I keep saying child know that I'm not talking about like, you know
55:10
Small children or whatever. I'm just talking about sons sons and daughters. But uh, but yeah the child wants to honor their father
55:20
They do that and mother they do that by giving them a good legacy Right, and if the parent is saying
55:26
I don't want a good legacy, right? I want you to You know, I mean Sarah's mother wanted her to like have a career for a long time, etc, right she she wasn't necessarily happy that there were grandkids when there were because That kept
55:40
Sarah from pursuing a career, right? She wanted a different legacy than the one we believed was good
55:45
Right, and we wanted to give her a good legacy, even if she didn't think that was the good legacy So that's how it's important on your parents
55:51
But then in addition to that man shall leave his father mother and cleave to his wife that at that stage
55:57
They don't have authority over you in the same way that they would when they're in your home So when you're choosing to go along with their with their wishes that family reunions or whatever that's not out of Obedience so much as just desire to get along and honor them in that way.
56:15
Hopefully that makes them Thinking about it in terms of the wooing process, right?
56:26
Yeah, and I know that's a weird term, but you know what I mean Like I don't know what else you call it like dating slash courtship
56:34
But I it makes sense analogously to speak of it as wooing. Yeah Yeah, right that it is right for the man take more initiative in that regard even if it is appropriate for the woman to express interest yeah, and yeah, and that it should be a
56:57
Yeah, and that wooing should result in a like You know a reorienting of affections that they both desire each other right not just one directional
57:24
Yeah, it really depends on what you mean by that. There would be ways that are are Too forward or scandalous or inappropriate for a woman.
57:34
However, you do see the example of Ruth You know, she didn't just like, you know languish as a as a widow, but decide to you know
57:44
Let the potential Redeemer know that she was available right and interested I don't think that was a
57:49
I don't think that was inappropriate for her to To make herself available in that way
58:05
Yeah, I think that I mean I think that's starting to I think that's starting to cross the line a little right Yeah, I mean and I keep in mind.
58:11
I'm really trying to just Take this text right and and think about what?
58:17
You express availability, you know that you would like that invitation just the same way
58:22
I don't think it's appropriate for a woman to get on one knee and you know offer the ring to the man I think that's what we're talking about the same thing there.
58:29
Yeah Like she can she can make herself feel she can let Him know that she would say yes, would he you know, like she could let him know that that's her way of going.
58:40
Yes Often right now.
59:13
It's concert, you know right now Everything's so topsy -turvy that a lot of people think oh, no, it's dignified, you know,
59:19
I'm not gonna open doors for women I'm not gonna I'm gonna let her do it, you know It's just crazy.
59:24
Yeah Sure. Yeah, he should be.
01:00:00
Yeah, he protects her dignity by being the one to By being the one to get rejected essentially, right?
01:00:08
Whereas if she yeah, she's the one who? Who asked that she gets rejected? Yeah Not necessarily
01:00:26
I do think that that happens more often in our culture than it probably should like there's a Is it sorry is it wrong for a young woman to leave her father's house and I assume we're talking about an adult woman
01:00:37
Yeah, right. So I do think That that happens more often than it should there's just like there's a lot of independence that is like fueled by you know transformation in our society that's happened over the past, you know hundred years that It's hard to argue with because people are so used to it right and just feel so it feels so normal Oh, once you you know turn 18, you're out of the house.
01:01:02
You're living your own life You're going to whatever parties you want, etc. I do think I do think the dignity of a woman
01:01:10
Yeah, typically would involve you know being a part of the household and you see that You see that throughout scripture even in Isaiah 4 where?
01:01:19
Maybe it's Isaiah 3 where the women are, you know Clinging to a man and saying just give us your name.
01:01:25
Like all we want is your name You don't even have to provide for us Just give us your name right because there's so because so many women have been cast out right, and so like even the name is considered a
01:01:36
Like a thing of dignity for the woman now. Yeah, is it good that if a
01:01:44
Yeah, it felt like let's say a woman has to Abandon her home for the sake of Christ or something like that could be totally reasonable
01:01:52
And it's good that she does not have to suffer a lot of the shame that she would in previous times
01:01:59
But yeah all the same. I don't I don't think that where we are is necessarily the right place and the level of independence
01:02:06
Yeah Yeah That's a great point, yeah, yeah exactly and and it would be by you know having that kind of Spirit that would that would desire to be a part of the home rather than striking it out on her own
01:02:52
Right All right, let's go ahead and in there Dear Heavenly Father.
01:02:59
Thank you for your word. We pray that you would give us wisdom We are people who desperately need it.
01:03:04
We know that we are Blinded by the things that we're used to we are It's hard for us to reason