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Hello, welcome back to Coffee with a Calvinist. This is a daily conversation about scripture, culture, and media from a Reformed perspective. Get your Bible and coffee ready and prepare to engage today's topic.
Here's your host, Pastor Keith Foskey.
Welcome back to Coffee with a Calvinist. My name is Keith Foskey and I am a Calvinist. Today is December 29th, 2020, and we are going to be talking today about a question that was asked of me after my sermon from last Lord's Day.
One of our church members, as she was leaving the church, had a question about my sermon. Just to give you a little background on the sermon, I was preaching on Daniel 3. I was preaching on the narrative of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.
I was talking about how they stood firmly in the midst of a pagan generation that they were in, a pagan culture that they had been exiled into, or they had been taken captive into. Toward the end of the sermon, I said something that caught the attention of one of our church members, and she asked me this question on her way out, and I thought it would be a good question that I could address on the podcast.
I said in the sermon that often we like to equate America with Israel, and America is not Israel. And I said, if you're going to make an analogy in this text, America would be Babylon. It would not be Israel.
And I said, the church is Israel. So if you think of it just from that context, the context of what I was saying, I was saying if you look at the situation of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego standing up against the false religion of the Chaldeans, standing up for their faith, standing up for Jehovah, and they were saying, we will not bow, we will not worship the golden image that's been set up, we're just not going to do it.
And so my point was to simply say, if you look at the analogy, the analogy is, America is not Israel. In this analogy, the American culture is much closer to the Babylonian culture, much more pagan, and so certainly that would be the case.
But when I said Israel would be the church, I also made this point. I said, a lot of dispensationalists get offended when they hear someone say that Israel is the church, and the church is Israel. And I know that that would be offensive, and I knew that that would catch some off-guard because we do have folks in our church who have dispensational backgrounds, even though we do not teach dispensationalism in our church.
Our church is more covenantal, we are not dispensational, but I knew that there were some who had that background, so I made it a point to say, the church is Israel. And I was glad that one of our church members came to me afterward and asked the question and said, listen, I've heard of replacement theology, I've been told it's bad, and I've been told that Israel is not the church, and to equate the two is wrong, and I need you to tell me from the Bible where you get the idea that Israel is the church, or rather that the church is Israel.
And so I thought this might be good to do on the podcast today, to walk through a few texts of scripture and to talk about the argument logically. I tried to, with the church member, have a short conversation, but right by the back door is a very difficult time.
So member, if you're listening, you know who you are, and I'm so thankful, I want to say I'm so grateful for this question, I'm grateful to have to think through and give good answers to difficult questions, because this is a difficult question, and this is a question that divides many in the church.
This is a question that I would answer quite differently than, say, John MacArthur, who is a dispensationalist, or many in the Baptist churches who are heavily influenced by dispensationalism. But let me very quickly give a very quick overview of what I mean, I keep saying the word dispensationalism, and some of you don't know what that means, so let me very quickly explain what I mean by that.
In the mid -1800s, there was a system of theology that was established based on the idea that Israel and the church were to be distinguished from one another, and that God had a distinct plan for Israel, and he had a distinct plan for the church, and those two plans were not the same, and that the end result of those two plans were not necessarily going to end up the same, and this led to a very popular teaching by, it started, I believe, with J. N. Darby, and then it was popularized in the notes of the Schofield Reference Bible, and many pastors, even today, still use the Schofield Reference Bible.
The old joke is, my hope is built on nothing less than Schofield's notes and moody press, so that's kind of an old joke, but somewhat true, there are a lot of people who take Schofield's notes as the 67th book of scripture, and Schofield had outlined very clearly the dispensational framework, which was based on the idea that Israel and the church were distinct, and actually, dispensationalism goes even further as to say that the church is not really the primary focus of God, but rather it is a parenthesis in the plan of God, that the plan of God was for Israel in the Old Testament, the church comes along because of Israel's rejection of the Messiah, and therefore the church becomes a parenthesis in the plan of God, but by parenthesis I mean there's something before and something after, you know, if you put parenthesis in a sentence, there's something before and something after, well Israel's before and Israel's after, the church is this sort of center point that started with Pentecost and will end with the secret rapture, which is believed by dispensationalists to take the church away, and therefore God can again begin to focus on Israel, and a lot of this is based on, I would say, misunderstandings of passages like Romans 10 and 11, and particular verses in Revelation in regard to the Millennium, Revelation chapter 20 specifically, and I'm not saying these people are bad Christians or even bad theologians, I just think that this is an area where lines are drawn where I don't think lines should be drawn, in fact the whole idea in scripture is that Christ came to break down the dividing line between Jew and Gentile, not to continue to maintain it, and the idea that there's going to be this continued maintaining of a division between Jew and Gentile is, I think is unbiblical, and this is why I don't really like it when I see what are often called messianic Jews, Jewish people who focus on the fact that they're Christians but they're also Jews, and so therefore they are holding on to their Jewish heritage, now there's nothing wrong with holding on to heritage, but often it's almost as if, well we're a distinct group, you have Christians and then you have Christian Jews, and I don't think that that is a biblical category, I don't think that that's a category that should be maintained, and so what I want to do today is I want to show some scripture because the church member who asked did ask for, she said is there a scripture verse that says the church is Israel, Israel is the church, and there is no verse that says it that way any more than there's a verse that uses the word Trinity or something like that, it doesn't say it that way, but there are many many verses that let us know that the wall of division between Jew and Gentile was broken down in Christ and therefore in Christ there is no longer Jew and Gentile, and therefore the idea that you have Israel and the church, it just can't be, it's either you are in Christ and therefore you are in the church but you're also part of the faithful remnant of Israel or you're not, and so let's look at some scripture and I hope to make this point very clear.
One of my favorite passages to look at in this regard is actually in the second chapter of Ephesians, starting in verse 11, now most people are very familiar with Ephesians chapter 2 but most people think it ends at verse 10 because that's the part that we, especially Reformed folks, we know Ephesians 2, Ephesians 2 1, we use for when we're arguing about total depravity, you know you're dead and trespassed in sins, Ephesians 2 8 -10 to argue for justification by faith alone, these are Reformed passages but like I said a lot of people don't realize that it goes on, and you get to verse 11 and the Apostle Paul writes this, he says therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh called the uncircumcision by what is called the circumcision which is made in the flesh by hands, here he's talking about Jews and Gentiles, remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, you Gentiles were separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world, so basically what he's saying is you Gentiles, you were outside of Christ, you were separated from Christ, you also were separated or alienated from Israel and you were strangers to the covenants of promise, you had no hope and you were without God, that's who you were if you were a Gentile, that's who you were before Christ.
Verse 13, but now in Christ Jesus you who were once far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ for he himself is our peace who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, the two there being Jews and Gentiles, so making peace and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross thereby killing the hostility.
Think of that, that is the promise of the gospel, that there's no longer Jew and Gentile, that we are now one in Christ Jesus. Now keep that in mind and turn in your Bibles to Galatians chapter 3, keeping that in mind, that in Christ the wall of hostility has been broken down and there's no more Jew or Gentile in Christ.
Now go to Galatians 3, Galatians 3 verse 28, there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus and if you are Christ's then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to the promise.
Think about what that says, it says if you're in Christ, you are Abraham's offspring, what is Abraham's offspring? Israel, Abraham's offspring is the Jews, Abraham's offspring is the Hebrew people, that is Abraham's offspring, so what are we by faith in Jesus Christ?
We are Abraham's offspring. If we think about it, we think about Jesus, think about the conversation that Jesus had with the Pharisees and when Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees, he told them, he said if you really were sons of Abraham you would believe in me.
That's what we are by believing in Jesus, we become sons of Abraham. In fact, there used to be a song that we sang if you grew up in church going to vacation Bible school and to Sunday school, you probably heard the song, Father Abraham has many sons, many sons has Father Abraham, I am one of them and so are you, so let's all praise the Lord.
That's the point, if I am a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, if I've been born again, I have become a son by faith, a spiritual child of Abraham, therefore I am made part of spiritual Israel. Now, I want to take a step back and address some of the arguments that often come up against this.
Often it is said the Jews have to have their own plan from God because there's promises that God made to Israel that they have not yet to receive and if they don't receive them as a physical people, then they would make God a liar.
That's often one of the arguments that's made and I may be articulating it a little oddly, but basically the argument is if God doesn't fulfill his promises to the physical offspring of Abraham, then God is a liar.
My response to that is that the promises of God have been fulfilled through Christ and the promises of God to Israel are not fulfilled in any other person except Christ. Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the promises.
In fact, in 2 Corinthians we have an allusion to this in 2 Corinthians chapter 1 verse 20. It says, for all the promises of God find their yes in him. This is referring to the promises. In fact, if you have an ESV study Bible, you can look over the notes on verse 20.
It says God's promises find their fulfillment in Christ indicating that the Old Testament scriptures should be read as pointing to Christ. Remember, go back to Luke 24. When Jesus is talking to the two men on the road to Emmaus in Luke 24, what does he say?
It says, starting with Moses, he explained to them all of the scriptures which pointed to him. He explained to them how the scripture pointed to him. Jesus Christ is the fulfillment. What greater fulfillment, what greater promises could there be than the promise of the Messiah?
Jesus is the fulfillment of every promise in the Old Testament going all the way back to the Proto-Evangelium, Genesis 3 .15. He is the one that would crush the head of the serpent. Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the promises given to Israel.
Someone might say, I don't see how Jesus can fulfill this promise or that promise. They may point to this scripture or that scripture. I don't see how Jesus can be the fulfillment of this. Well, if we think about it, we don't have to understand completely because God knows for sure how Jesus would be the fulfillment of those promises.
But think about what outside, what do you need other than Christ? What benefit is there in being a Jew if you are not also a believer in Jesus Christ? Now, the Apostle Paul answers that question. What benefit is there to being a Jew?
He answers that question in the book of Romans. He discusses the issue of what it means, the blessings of being a Jew. He says in Romans 9, he says, to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, the promises.
To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen. So there's a benefit to being a Jew. But here's the thing that he goes on to say in that same chapter.
He goes on to tell us that just being a Jew alone does not provide salvation. You have to be in Christ to be saved. In fact, he says that, in verse 3, he says, I wish myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my brothers, my kinsmen, according to the flesh.
Essentially saying that if, in fact, he could save his Jewish brethren, his brethren according to the flesh, by going to hell, that he would do it. And we know this is true. This is not just Paul using hyperbole here, because he is speaking Scripture, or he's writing Scripture, therefore he's writing what is true.
And so the idea that Jewish people are saved simply by being Jewish, and I've heard people say that. Pat Robertson was interviewing a Jewish man on his program, and the Jewish man said, well, I guess I'm not going to heaven because of I don't believe in Jesus.
And Pat Robertson said, oh, no, no, you're a Jew, so you're going to be saved. All Israel will be saved. And that is an absolute and I think, well, it's an absolute and shameful misuse of that text, the text that all Israel will be saved.
Because there is a passage that says that. But in my estimation, that particular passage, it does not mean that Jews are saved simply by virtue of being Jewish. Because if it did, that would make Romans 9 .3 have no sense whatsoever.
Because Romans 9 .3, Paul says, I wish I could be accursed if it meant the salvation of my brethren according to the flesh. Why even say that? Why even say that if their salvation comes simply by their being Jewish?
It doesn't make any sense. So getting back to the argument of or the question of why do we say Israel and the church are the same? Because we have been made one in Christ Jesus. And so now there is no salvation outside of Christ.
The idea of blessings for simply being Jewish, the scriptures teach us that if you are not in Christ, then the only thing that you have to look forward to is eternal damnation, eternal punishment, eternal wrath.
And so there is no benefit to being a Jew unless one argues from the dispensational perspective, well, there may come a day when the church is raptured out and God will then turn his attention back to the Jews.
But what, even in a dispensational framework, what is the purpose of that? The purpose of that is to convert that remnant of Jews to Christ. So even in the dispensational framework, nobody gets saved outside of Christ.
And therefore I go back to Paul's words, in Christ we are all made children of Abraham. Therefore the idea that we should maintain some type of distinction between Jew and Gentile on this side of the cross, I think is unbiblical.
I think it causes a misunderstanding of Jew and Gentile that is unhelpful and unuseful in the church. But I want to take a step further and I know I've got to wrap this up because I've been going on now and I knew I'd go a long today.
But something to consider is in Romans chapter 11 because Romans chapter 11 is often used as the passage which does make a distinction between Jew and Gentile and they'll say, see here's where the real distinction is.
But I want to just simply make a point about this passage because it begins with asking the question, has God rejected His people? And Paul says by no means. I am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin.
God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. And remember back in chapter 8 it says for whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. So Paul is hearkening back to his own use of language, the word foreknew.
God has not rejected any of His people who are the remnant and he goes on to say that. He says, do you not know that scripture says of Elijah how he appeals to God against Israel, Lord they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars for I alone am left and they seek my life.
But what was God's reply to him? I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal. So too at this present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. So Paul is saying this. He's saying God hasn't given up on Israel because there are Israelites who trust in Jesus.
That's the point. He says so too have at this present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. What is that? It's the ones who are like Paul. It's the ones who have trusted in Jesus. Paul uses himself as an example.
I'm an Israelite. I'm a descendant of Abraham and I trust in Christ. God has not rejected all of Israel because I'm part of Israel, Paul says. But there are those who are of Jewish descent who God has given over to a hardened heart.
We see this in verse seven and then in verse eight has given them eyes that would not see, ears that would not hear, a spirit of stupor. And he uses the distinction between the Jews and the Gentiles and he talks about God grafting the Gentiles in, and again this is the language that's important.
Notice he says, look at verse 17, but if some of the branches were broken off, actually let's go back up. We'll read through this. We'll begin at verse 13. Now I am speaking to you Gentiles and as much then as I am speaking as an apostle to the Gentiles I magnify my ministry in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous and thus save some of them.
Because how do you get saved? You get saved through Jesus and that's the purpose, point. For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?
If the dough offered as first fruits is holy so is the whole lump and if the root is holy so are the branches. But if some of the branches, verse 17, if some of the branches were broken off in you although a wild olive shoot were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches.
If you are, remember it is not you who support the root but the root supports you. Then you will say branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in. That is true, they were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith.
Do not become proud but fear for if God did not spare the natural branches neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of the Lord's severity toward those who have fallen but God's kindness towards you provided you continue in his kindness otherwise you too will be cut off.
And even they if they do not continue in their unbelief will be grafted in for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree and grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree how much more will these the natural branches be grafted back into their own olive tree.
Notice the use of the illustration the olive tree is Israel, the branches are Jewish people by birth natural branches and the wild olive tree is Gentiles and what are the Gentiles brought into by trusting in Christ?
They're brought into the tree, they're brought into this tree which is what? Which is Israel because the Jews who have rejected Jesus are no longer a part of the spiritual family of God but the Gentiles who have trusted Jesus have been made part of the family of God.
So does the Apostle Paul make a distinction between Israel and Gentiles? In this passage yes but ultimately the most important thing is the root, the root of Israel, the spiritual root of Israel is what we have been grafted into.
We who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ have been made fellow heirs with him and we are children of Abraham. We see this in Ephesians, we see this in Galatians, we see this in Romans, we see this all through the teachings of the Apostle Paul and might I add I believe also in the teachings of Jesus again who said that those who believe in him are the true sons of Abraham.
So I hope that today's lesson has been helpful. I know this is a difficult subject and it's important that we don't try to create divisions where they're unnecessary and I know that many of my believing dispensational brethren are wonderful Christians.
John MacArthur is a wonderful Bible teacher and he's a dispensationalist and I know many of you who are listening may have had a dispensational background and this is not an attempt to create a fight or to kick anyone.
This is simply my attempt to provide a position of what we would believe when we say that the church is Israel because some people would say well that means the church has replaced Israel and that's replacement theology.
But I don't think that the term replacement theology is the most helpful term. I prefer to think of expansion theology where the gospel was held in seed form among the Israelites, among the Jewish people, among that small community of faith throughout the Old Testament.
When Christ came, the gospel went to all the world, to Jew and Gentile. This is the expansion of Israel, not the replacement of Israel. And so I hope that this has been a helpful lesson and again for the church member who asked this question, I want to give you a big thank you for inspiring today's podcast.
And I want to remind everyone who's listening that the podcast also now has a email address that you can send your questions to and I know today may inspire some questions and if you send a question I may use it in an upcoming episode.
But please send your questions, comments, questions or comments to calvinistpodcast at gmail .com. CalvinistPodcast at gmail .com. Thank you again for listening to Coffee with a Calvinist. My name is Keith.
Foskey and I've been your Calvinist. Thank you for listening to today's episode of Coffee with a Calvinist. If you enjoyed the program, please take a moment to subscribe and provide us feedback. We love to receive your comments and questions and may even engage with them in a future episode.
As you go about your day, remember this, Jesus Christ came to save sinners. All who come to Him in repentance and faith will find Him to be a perfect Savior. He is the way, the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father except through Him.
May God be with you.