March 26, 2021 Show with Doug Wilson on “An Update on Sticker-gate & the Political Scam of White Supremacy Slander”

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions and now here's your host

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Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

01:19

This is Chris Arnzen, your host at Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this 26th day of March 2021.

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I'm thrilled to have back on the program a returning guest by the name of Doug Wilson, a conservative,

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Reformed, and evangelical theologian, pastor at Christ Church in Moscow, Idaho, faculty member at New St.

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Andrews College, author and speaker, founder of Canon Press, host of the

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Applied Theology Podcast, and blogger at Blog and Mayblog. Today we are going to be addressing an update on Stickergate and the political scam of white supremacy slander and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Doug Wilson.

02:07

Thank you. Great to be here. Thanks for having me. The pleasure is all mine, brother, and before we get into the topic at hand for our listeners that have not heard you on the program before, may not be familiar with you,

02:20

I'm sure that they are very small in number if they're not familiar with you, I'm assuming the vast majority of my listeners know who you are, but why don't you let our listeners know about Christ Church in Moscow, Idaho.

02:35

Sure. I'm the senior pastor at Christ Church. Moscow, Idaho is up in the panhandle of Idaho, up north, and we are,

02:47

I've been the pastor here for 40 plus years. We are a member of the

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Communion of Reformed Evangelical Churches, the CREC, so I'm, that's basically it.

03:03

The pastorage is my day job, preaching and involvement in the church, and I also write and blog at Blog and Mayblog.

03:13

And tell us something, I don't think I've asked you before, something about not only the polity there, but also what might, what one might expect when visiting

03:27

Christ Church, what kind of worship service they may experience, is it more of a liturgical worship, etc.?

03:34

Tell us something more about that. I describe what we do at Christ Church as sort of high church puritan, so it's a structured liturgical service.

03:47

Most people would just think of it as a traditional worship service. We don't have, we don't do robes or candles or anything like that, that's not what

03:57

I mean. I don't wear a collar, I don't preach in a robe, so, um, but it's a formal set liturgy where there's a call to worship, and then there's a time of confession, and we all kneel for confession, and then there's the assurance of pardon, and then the preaching of the word, and we sing quite a bit over the hour and a half.

04:19

We probably sing 10 to 12 songs, somewhere in there. So we sing a lot, a message, we have the

04:27

Lord's Supper every week, so it's a structured liturgical service, but it's not

04:35

Anglo -Catholic or anything like that. And when you said that there's a time of confession, is this basically a general congregational confession, or do individuals publicly announce?

04:50

It's both. So we all kneel together, and then the minister who's officiating at that part of the service will pray a prayer of confession that's corporate, that involves the nation or the

05:07

Christian church or, you know, a general corporate prayer of confession, and then there is a period of silence where everyone is invited to confess their own sins individually.

05:19

Yeah, that's something that you don't hear too often in evangelical churches, I think that is something very biblical and refreshing to hear.

05:28

And as far as the polity, are you more Presbyterian, Episcopalian, how would you feel? No, we're basically

05:34

Presbyterians. I tell people that we're Presbyterians who believe the Bible. Yes, and even our conservative

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Presbyterian friends that actually wear the name Presbyterian are typically the first to fully admit that there are many

05:58

Presbyterian churches out there, perhaps the majority, that wear that name that are either very far to the left or even over the boundaries of apostasy, so I'm sure any

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Presbyterian worth his salt listening would take no offense by what you just said. Right.

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And if anybody wants more information about Christ Church in Moscow, Idaho, all you have to do is go to Christkirk .com,

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Kirk being the Scottish word for church, Christkirk .com.

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And if you want more information about all of Doug Wilson's activities and other ministries outside of the realm of Christ Church, you can go to Dougwills .com,

06:51

an abbreviation for Doug Wilson, Dougwills, Doug and W -I -L -S, only one

06:57

L, .com. Well, as I already announced, we are going to be addressing today first an update on Stickergate and then we're going to eventually be addressing the political scam of white supremacy slander, which we hear every single day, multiple times a day in the media.

07:17

But tell us, what on earth is Stickergate? Yeah, what is it?

07:22

I believe that you have had my friend Gabe Wrench on your show before, so some people might be aware of Moscow, Idaho, isn't that the place where they arrested the people of the

07:35

Solentzing? And yes, that is correct. We...

07:40

To just give you a little bit of background, Latah County, where we are, is and has been one of the most lightly touched areas of the country when it comes to COVID.

07:54

So other places have been hard hit, but not here. And it was a very minimal effect, and yet, our progressive city council issued a mass mandate, you know, the first...

08:15

Well, the whole deal, right? And when it became apparent that they were doing this, it was a political sort of thing, and they extended the mass mandate in a way that was just completely unnecessary, given our circumstances.

08:36

Our church scheduled a Solentzing at City Hall. Now we've done

08:42

Solentzings, we've done Christmas carols things outdoors, and Solentzings periodically for years.

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It's just something we do, where we sit in the public square, reserve it, and spend time singing

08:55

Praise and God there. And so we scheduled this one at City Hall.

09:04

The edict or the ordinance that the city council had passed had carved out an exemption for political speech and for religious activity, and so when we did this protest at City Hall, everything we did was completely and entirely legal.

09:27

So but nonetheless, three of our people were arrested at the Solentzing, and there was a great deal of potter and to -and -fro -ing over a number of weeks, at the end of which the city finally dropped the charges against those three, acknowledging that the arrests had been illegal.

09:52

So we had basically, we knew what was in the ordinance, and they did not know what was in their own ordinance.

10:00

So that's the setup for all this. And just over the course of this last week, the three people who were arrested have filed suits in federal court against the city of Moscow and against some of the individuals who were involved in the arrest, not for a zillion dollars, but for their court costs incurred while defending themselves.

10:25

So that's the setup. Right after those arrests happened, my son,

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Nate Wilson, or he writes under the name of N .D.

10:41

Wilson, my son and his business partner, Aaron Wrench, who is the brother of Gabe Wrench, one of the arrested, were trying to figure out a humorous, light -touch response to the tyranny, the overreach of arresting people at the

10:59

Solentzing, for pity's sake. And so they came up with the idea of printing out little stickers, little red stickers that said,

11:10

Soviet Moscow, Enforced Because We Care. And so these little stickers had a hammer and sickle, there was a red sticker with a yellow printing, a hammer and sickle in the middle,

11:25

Soviet Moscow, Enforced Because We Care. Because that, Enforced Because We Care, is the motto of our city on the mask mandate.

11:33

And so Nate gave them to different people, you know, put it on his coffee cup, and so they had these stickers.

11:42

Well, in the aftermath of these arrests, my two...two

11:49

of my grandsons, one who's 19 and one who's 14, went downtown at like 3 in the morning, and were putting stickers on poles and such.

12:04

Now, do you know anything about how poles and stickers in college towns go?

12:10

Yeah. Yeah, light poles are basically bulletin boards. Right.

12:16

I live right down the street, about one block away from Dickinson College, so I know the drill there.

12:23

Okay, so they put these stickers up, and they were stopped by some cops, and the police asked

12:35

Rory for ID, and Rory said something like, I thought that Idaho was not a stop and identify state, which it isn't.

12:47

He was correct on that. Well, he was then handcuffed and sat down on the sidewalk, and he was separated from his brother.

12:58

They were basically arrested and questioned and interrogated and whatnot, but not taken into custody.

13:07

So all the...if you take the legal definition of an arrest, Rory, the oldest grandson, met four out of four, and the younger grandson, whose name

13:19

I'm withholding because of his age, met three out of the four. So then they called

13:26

Nate, my son. He came down and got them. They released them. Nothing happened. About a week later, papers were served at the

13:35

Wilson household indicating that they were going to be charged, the three of them. Nate, Rory, and my youngest grandson were going to be charged with 13 counts of putting stickers up.

13:51

Now, each charge is a misdemeanor and can take up...can

13:58

earn you up to six months in prison. Wow. So the boys were threatened with basically six years in prison, and Nate was charged, and his offense was having had the stickers made.

14:16

Okay, so he was asleep when the stickers were being put up, and he's being charged with having made the stickers, and the boys were charged with putting them up.

14:29

Just recently, the charges have been dialed back to one count instead of 13 counts, because I think the city is realizing what an impossible position they've put themselves in, because it's just...

14:48

Oh, the other thing is, the ordinance that they were charged with violating has never, in the history of Moscow, has never had anybody charged under that ordinance until now.

15:03

That is Moscow, Idaho, of course. Moscow, Idaho, correct. So then, things are going along.

15:13

They've done a number of things illegally. My youngest grandson was being tried as a juvenile, and the juvenile judge was removed in the middle of a

15:23

Zoom trial, and another judge replaced him, which was totally illegal.

15:30

It's against the law to do what they're doing. So there was a motion to dismiss, lots of legal drama back and forth, a motion to dismiss the judge who did the wrong, decided against the motion to dismiss, and so as we speak, there's a trial coming up.

15:50

I'm hoping that the lawsuit that was just filed in federal court by Gabe and Sean and Rachel Bonet is going to make the city think twice about what they're doing.

16:02

It's really untenable, but I think they've gotten themselves into a situation where they can't go forward, and they can't go back.

16:11

They've got a grizzly bear by the ears, and they can't let go. Now, was this something, as far as the police officer involved, or plural, officers, was it something they were interested to be involved in?

16:27

Were they enthusiastic in their arresting and so on, your family members, or were they reluctant?

16:35

No, I don't think they knew who they were when they stopped them, and I think it was just somebody called, and, hey, they're doing this, and so they did what they did, and then they let them go.

16:49

I don't think the cops were expecting any kind of prosecution from it, but then a week later, the prosecuting attorney made the decision to go ahead, and by that time, they did know who they were, and so my view is that they're being prosecuted because their last name is the same as mine.

17:12

You know, this is amazing, because your local governing authorities, in their actions, are actually proving the legitimacy of the comical stickers with the hammer and sickle.

17:27

It's like saying, how dare you call me a racist? I'm going to burn a cross on your lawn, you know?

17:34

That's exactly what it is. Utterly amazing. So now you're just basically waiting to see the outcome of the next hearing.

17:45

Well, our listeners should pray for Doug Wilson's family about that, and I assume that you are going to be maintaining updates on that at DougWills .com.

18:00

Will do, yes. And by the way, folks, for similar issues, I have interviewed, just very recently, a few days ago, the attorney for James Coates, the pastor teacher at Grace Life Church of Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, who was just released from jail.

18:23

I interviewed James Kitchen, who is James Coates' attorney, on the arrest, incarceration, and release of a pastor who refused to stop holding church.

18:34

And I intend to interview James Coates himself once he has the opportunity to spend a few more days of rest and relaxation with his family.

18:47

And you can find that interview on irontriponsirenradio .com. All you have to do is type in Kitchen.

18:54

He's the only person I ever interviewed with that last name. Just like the room in your house where you cook food,

19:00

Kitchen. Just type that in the search engine at irontriponsirenradio .com. Also, I have interviewed

19:08

Ernie Springer, my own personal physician, Dr. Joel Yeager, and Dr.

19:15

Daniel O 'Rourke on their book, Coronavirus, and the leadership of the

19:20

Christian Church is sacred, trust broken. All three of these men are vehemently opposed to shutting down churches because of the coronavirus hysteria that is going on.

19:34

And in fact, my doctor that I just mentioned, Dr. Joel Yeager, who is a co -author of this book, he does not believe in mask wearing.

19:43

He says trying to keep coronavirus away with masks is like trying to keep mosquitoes away with a chain link fence.

19:50

And no one in his office wears masks. So I think you'll find not only his book interesting, but the interviews

19:59

I've done two so far with all three of them, and I've done one with my doctor alone, which was actually at the tail end of James Kitchen's interview.

20:08

And if you type in Springer, that's Ernie Springer, one of the co -authors last name.

20:13

He's also the only one I've ever interviewed with that last name. If you type in Springer, S -P -R -I -N -G -E -R, you'll get all the interviews involving that book.

20:23

Well, now we are going to be entering into one of these issues that you could be easily accused of being a racist for even addressing this subject and for doubting the legitimacy of many accusations of racism.

20:47

We are going to be discussing the political scam of white supremacy, slander.

20:54

And when did this start to enter into your mind, seeing what was going on in the world and in this nation that made you think, now wait a minute, this has really become out of control.

21:12

This is insane. This is nothing but slander. I just saw

21:18

Votie Baucom not long ago conduct a seminar in Pennsylvania on critical race theory.

21:25

He is vehemently opposed to it, as anyone who knows Votie Baucom would immediately guess.

21:33

During one of his lectures, he brought up the fact that in one of the

21:38

Lego movies that his kids love, there is a little song that is sung in the movie,

21:45

Everything is Awesome, Awesome, Awesome. So throughout one of his lectures against critical race theory,

21:52

Votie would interject now and again at poignant parts, Everything is racist, racist, racist, because it seems that everything is racist these days, even things that it is mind -boggling to even detect any connection at all with that sin of bigotry.

22:09

But if you could, tell us about when you first started to get your ire up over this. What were the circumstances and how long ago was that?

22:18

I probably started having my first difficulties with these things, these issues, when

22:26

I was in high school. Back in the late 60s.

22:32

I graduated in 71. But it's very different now from the way it began.

22:42

So it was really strange, if you don't mind my sharing a little bit of autobiography here.

22:49

Sure. I grew up in Annapolis, Maryland, in the 1950s.

22:57

And if you know Maryland, the northern border of Maryland is the Mason -Dixon line.

23:03

And so Maryland was very much a southern sort of place.

23:13

It was a border state in the war between the states. But it was very much like Virginia.

23:19

The only reason Maryland didn't succeed in the Civil War is that Lincoln arrested the state legislature so that they couldn't.

23:30

So I grew up in that town, and the public schools,

23:37

I went to public schools. The public schools were segregated. I went to the white elementary school.

23:46

There was a black elementary school just a little over a block away from our house.

23:52

But I went to the white elementary school. It was a couple miles away. And then the

23:58

Supreme Court decision came down. There was this integration mandate, and white flight began.

24:10

So a bunch of white families fled, and some of them,

24:15

I'm sure, for reasons of bigotry. Others, I think, for reasons of wanting to protect their kids from unrest.

24:24

There were all sorts of reasons. But there was white flight. My dad, at the time, we were in the southern city.

24:31

My dad didn't want to have any part of that. And so the middle school

24:38

I went to was the former black high school. And so I was all part of the churn of a segregated southern -type culture being integrated by fiat.

24:56

And at that time, our family was simply, bigotry is bad. We don't want to participate in that.

25:03

We want to stay put and cooperate. So that's what we did. Well, then we moved up to Ann Arbor, Michigan, which is where I went to high school.

25:13

And when we got to Ann Arbor, the climate was completely different.

25:21

So we were in the southern setting. My folks were evangelicals, not all that politically active.

25:31

But if you tagged them with anything, it would be as sympathizers with the efforts at integration and whatnot.

25:42

Well, then when we got to Ann Arbor, which is basically a commie stronghold, it was a leftist sort of place, my high school had an

25:57

SDS chapter. You know, the Students for a Democratic Society. And I remember coming out of homeroom one time and walking out of homeroom and there was a line of policemen running by with their clubs out.

26:12

There was a race riot in the high school while I was there. So I walked around to the front of the school after seeing the cops run by.

26:22

And by the time I got to the front of the school, which was just a few minutes later, there was already an attorney representing the rioters standing on the front steps, declaiming for the cameras, okay?

26:37

In other words, I had seen actual racial prejudice in the town

26:46

I grew up in, where it was aimed at blacks, basically. I saw the real thing and disapproved of it, as I think all consistent

26:56

Christians ought to. But then when we were in Ann Arbor, we saw something, we saw the hustle was being run the other direction.

27:06

The hustle was being run the other way. Now, initially I thought, okay, this is just, these people have been aggrieved and put upon and mistreated for a long time, and what they're doing is they're reacting and they're overreacting, okay?

27:21

So, and basically the line was, you white people don't know how badly you've treated us, and let us explain to you how badly you've treated us.

27:33

That was the setup then. Now, it's morphed into something else. And what it is, is because we've successfully gotten to the point where the overt racism, the overt bigotry that I remember from when

27:51

I was a boy, is now disapproved of by everybody in every direction. Nobody supports it.

28:01

What do you do when you've got a racism industry that successfully stamps out racism?

28:11

Well, if you want to keep your industry going, you have to discover ever finer, ever more pestilent forms of racism.

28:22

Yeah, what on earth would Al Sharpton do for a living if racism would disappear? That's exactly right.

28:30

So, I believe that the race hustlers, and I distinguish race hustlers from civil rights advocates.

28:41

So, civil rights advocates, God bless them, race hustlers are a different thing.

28:47

The race hustlers are people who see their main chance, and want to jump at it, and they can make their dreams come true by riding the race train.

29:01

Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, people like that are hustlers.

29:06

In fact, we have to pick up right where you left off there with the race hustlers, because we have to go to our first break. All right.

29:11

And we'll pick up right where you left off. If anybody wants to join us with a question of your own, send it to chrisarnzen at gmail .com,

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37:05

This is Chris Arnzen, if you just tuned in. Our guest today for the full two hours is

37:10

Doug Wilson, and we are now discussing the very controversial theme, the political scam of white supremacy slander.

37:20

If you have a question, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com. Give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence, if you live outside the

37:28

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. And right before the break,

37:33

Doug, you were distinguishing between the race hucksters and the civil rights advocates.

37:45

Yeah, a civil rights advocate is someone who thinks that basically the law should be colorblind.

37:56

So, and you can see, and this is something, although I have problems with Martin Luther King Jr.'s

38:05

larger agenda, there's a phrase that he used in his famous I Have a Dream speech that I do agree with, where we ought to judge people by the content of their character and not by the color of their skin.

38:19

Amen. Right? That is basically a statement that he approved of the idea that Lady Justice be blindfolded, that when a case comes up before her, she doesn't need to know what color you are in order to find out what happened.

38:39

So you follow the biblical rules of evidence, two and three witnesses, independent confirmation, ability to confront your accusers, the assumption of innocence, you know, all of those things.

38:53

Now, we've gotten to the point where if there's a shooting, like we just did within the last week or so, we've had two.

39:01

We had the shooting in Atlanta where most of the victims were

39:06

Asian and the alleged perpetrator was white. And then we had the shooting in Boulder, Colorado where all the victims were white and the perpetrator was a

39:17

Muslim ISIS sympathizer. Right? Now, the thing that is astonishing is we've gotten to the point where people don't want to say what they think of it until they find out what color the people doing it.

39:34

What color were the people dying and what color were the people doing killing? What color were they?

39:40

Because I can't tell you what I think of it until then. Well, Christians should say, well, we object to murder, period.

39:49

Right? The victims in Atlanta and the victims in Boulder were all created in the image of God and the people who took their lives didn't have the right to do so.

40:01

And I don't need to know what color you are before I weigh in on what

40:06

I think happened. So we've gotten to the point where the one thing we absolutely refuse to do is judge people by the content of their character and we rush to judge them by the color of their skin.

40:22

And this is not only is it a failure to live up to the civil rights, the laudable civil rights goals, it is a full -scale assault on them.

40:36

The people who are woke today, people who are flying under the woke banner are enemies of civil rights.

40:47

Yeah, it is really amazing how not long ago colorblindness was a virtue, not the kind of colorblindness that I actually have, where I can't distinguish between blue and purple and orange and green.

41:05

The colorblindness in regard to Martin Luther King's I Have a

41:11

Dream speech, that we are not to judge people according to the color of their skin, according to the content of their character.

41:20

It was very recently when universally liberals and right -thinking, biblically moral conservatives agreed that that was true.

41:32

In fact, the Bible even goes further than that. We're not supposed to judge people according to what clothing they're wearing.

41:38

If they are rich and they show up at church the finest of clothing and somebody from the street comes in with rags, we're not supposed to treat them differently.

41:47

And we could go on and on how we're not supposed to treat people differently because of their appearance.

41:52

But today, that's racist? I don't even understand that. How can you come to that conclusion in the 21st century that being colorblind is racist?

42:04

What you have to do is if actual overt bigotry is on the run and it's hard to find it anywhere, you can still find it if you know where to look.

42:18

But it was largely exiled from public life. If you have an economic incentive to be able to still keep finding racism, you have to set the mesh on your filters to a finer and finer scale.

42:37

So basically, another phrase we see now is white supremacy.

42:44

Okay, well, if you say, what does white supremacy mean?

42:50

If someone says, well, it means that whites are superior to all other races, then that's a problem and we should talk to that guy.

42:59

But what it's come to mean is that this country is still predominantly white.

43:06

And so consequently, there are certain assumptions that people make that are just baked into that.

43:13

Right? But here's the thing, it's just the way it is. It's the way life is.

43:20

There's nothing objectionable about it. If I were to move, let's say

43:26

I uprooted my family from Northern Idaho and we all moved to Norway and we moved up to the

43:34

Northern end of Norway, right? And then let's say having moved there,

43:39

I started complaining about Norwegian supremacy. I happen to be half

43:48

Norwegian. So I agree with that. I'm only kidding. So I go to the grocery store and there's all this

43:54

Norwegian food. I go to a restaurant and there's on the menu, there's all these Norwegian dishes.

44:01

I turn on the radio and there's all these Norwegian songs. And I think, well, look, you moved to Norway, right?

44:11

Now, the Bible does teach that Norwegian Christians should be watching out for the stranger and the alien in the land.

44:18

That's a biblical thing. But it's biblical to watch out for the person who's the fish out of water.

44:25

That's a good thing to do. But it's not a good thing to do to start apologizing for the existence of the water, right?

44:35

And that's what we've started to do. So you grew up in a white family and in a white neighborhood and most of your friends are white and you don't know what it's like to be black in Africa.

44:49

Well, that's right. God didn't put me there. God put me here. There's no sin in being with your people.

44:57

There's no sin in being more comfortable with cultural things that you are used to.

45:04

There's no sin in having moments of awkwardness when you're trying to communicate with someone from a different cultural background.

45:12

The thing I like to tell people is that I want to go back to this. One of the things that the left has done very well or by well,

45:21

I mean effectively, is they've made racism a sin. But the Bible doesn't talk about there's only one race and it's the human race.

45:31

Or if you want to go in a theological direction, there are two races. There's the human race in Adam and then there's a new human race in Christ.

45:42

Exactly. And in fact, I believe that, for instance, the white parents of a white daughter are in sin if they are happier that their white daughter is marrying a non -Christian white man than if they were to see their white daughter marrying a

46:06

Christian black man. I believe that they would be in sin being, preferring,

46:14

I should say, the daughter marrying somebody of their own skin color but who denies the

46:19

Christian faith. That is exactly correct, right? So my fundamental allegiance is to my brothers and sisters in Christ.

46:29

So I have more in common with a black brother who loves Jesus Christ than I do with a fellow white person who doesn't love

46:38

Jesus Christ. Because the two believers are members of the new human race as opposed to our old membership in the old human race that was under the wrath of God.

46:49

So fundamentally, there's only one human race, right? Now, there are various ethnic groups, ethnicities.

47:00

But even there, skin color is just one component. Cultures, what the

47:07

Bible would call, we get the word ethnic from the Greek word for the nations.

47:14

So in the Great Commission, we're told to disciple the ethnoi, all the tribes.

47:21

We're to disciple all the nations of men. But those nations are comprised of things like religion, language, culture, geography, and racial types, what we call racial types, like skin color, things like that, ethnic traits.

47:47

So if I am talking to, let's just take it out of the realm of the two human races, the believers and non -believers, and I'm talking to a black man who grew up in the same town that I did, went to the same schools

48:08

I did, has the same culture, an affinity with a number of the things that I have an affinity for, and then we went over to South Africa, the two of us, and we talked to a white man and a black man there, and that white man is

48:25

Dutch, and the black man is Zulu. Okay, this black man, just even on a national, tribal level, this black man and I, my fellow

48:38

American, we have more in common than we do with the people on another continent who happen to share the same skin color.

48:51

So the skin tint is one of the least obvious, is one of the least relevant circumstances that you can take into account.

49:03

Family culture, broader culture, language, expectations, all of these are really important.

49:13

So, for example, in Thomas Sowell, whom I love,

49:18

Thomas Sowell, he's just a marvelous thinker. I read a book of -

49:24

He's about 90 now, I think, and he's like still as sharp as he ever was. Yeah, he's just fantastic.

49:32

I read a book of his called Pink and Brown People, Pink and Brown People, and he pointed out, and he had the research to back himself up, he pointed out that blacks in America who were of West Indian descent, who were, like, for example, from the

49:53

Bahamas, as opposed to blacks in America who were not of that West Indies descent, had remarkably diverse outcomes in their lives here in America.

50:10

But his point was that a racist can't tell the difference, right?

50:17

Two black men in the American South are both the same to a racist.

50:25

He can't see past the skin color. But he said if you looked at the blacks of West Indies descent, they were far more successful in life than their counterparts.

50:39

And the reason was because of family expectations, family cohesion, you know, things that the racist isn't going to take into account at all.

50:49

So the thing that we have to come to grips with is that you can't blame everything on skin tint.

50:58

It's just, it's ludicrous. In fact, you shouldn't blame anything on skin tint.

51:05

The melanin content is, when you think about how utterly insane it is to treat somebody differently because of the melanin content in their skin, it's mind boggling how anybody ever began to do this.

51:21

Right. But we have to go to our midway break right now. And I hope that you folks are patient because as always, the midway break is a bit longer than the other breaks in the show because Grace Life Radio 90 .1

51:33

FM in Lake City, Florida requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show because the FCC requires of them localizing

51:40

Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio to Lake City, Florida geographically and all of their program for that matter.

51:46

So what they do is while we air our globally heard commercials, they air their own public service announcements and other local things to localize the show to Lake City, Florida.

51:58

So please be patient. Also use this time wisely. Please write down as much of the information as you can for as many of our advertisers as you can so that you can more frequently and successfully reply to them, respond to them and whenever possible, patronize them.

52:14

And when you can't actually patronize them, you can't buy their products, you can't use their services, you can't visit their churches, well, at least reach out to them to thank them for sponsoring the show.

52:25

If indeed you love the show and you don't want it to disappear, just contact them through whatever information they provide in their ads and thank them.

52:33

Say, I thank you so much for sponsoring Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio. Please continue to do so, et cetera, et cetera.

52:39

If indeed you love the show. That will go a long way, brothers and sisters, for helping us keep on the air because we absolutely positively depend on our advertisers and the finances that come through our advertisers to exist.

52:53

So write down the information they provide in their ads and also write down questions for Doug Wilson on the issue that we are addressing today, the very controversial issue at hand today, the political scam of white supremacy slander.

53:08

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com gives your first name at least, your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the

53:15

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. We'll be right back after these messages.

53:28

I'm James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. My friend Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio, and I are headed down to Atlanta, Georgia, once again for the

53:37

G3 conference. This year's G3 will be held Thursday, September 30th through Saturday, October 2nd on the theme

53:44

Christ is supreme over all. I'll be joined by over 20 other speakers and musicians to lead in the worship of God through preaching, teaching, and singing, including

53:54

John MacArthur, Phil Johnson, Conrad M. Bayway, Daryl Bernard Harrison, and Virgil Walker.

54:00

For details, visit g3conference .com. That's g3conference .com. Chris Arnson and I hope to see you

54:07

September 30th through October 2nd at G321. This is James White reminding you that Christ is supreme over all.

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That's l -i -y -f -c -dot -org. As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

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Gary DeMar, president of American Vision, had to say about Iron Shop and Zion Radio recently.

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How much do I owe you for that? You don't have to owe me anything.

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I just want to remind you that if you want this program to remain on the air please visit ironsharpensironradio .com

01:10:41

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I have helped people all over the world find churches that are biblically sound sometimes right around the corner from where they live that they didn't even know existed or they didn't know that the churches that they passed by every day were biblically sound

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I have extensive lists of biblically faithful churches spanning the globe so wherever you live send me an email if you are in that predicament of not having a biblically sound church send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

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and put I need a church in the subject line that's chrisarnson at gmail .com I need a church in the subject line and that's also the email address to send in a question to our guest

01:12:33

Doug Wilson we are talking about the political scam of white supremacy slander again the email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:12:45

chrisarnson at gmail .com give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the

01:12:52

USA only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter and we do have a listener in Kinross Scotland his name is

01:13:01

Murray and Murray in Kinross Scotland says just a couple of questions that occur to me with regard to what is being discussed regarding whether skin color matters did the

01:13:12

Shulamite woman need to mention that she was black in the Song of Solomon should believers be bothered that our

01:13:20

Lord Jesus is often portrayed as being white rather than of Middle Eastern appearance and this is

01:13:27

Murray from Kinross Scotland do you have any comments on that Doug? sure first Murray what a great

01:13:34

Scottish name good job I will congratulate his parents for that yeah so the mention of the

01:13:45

I'm dark but comely in the Song of Solomon doesn't have the there's no problem with that being mentioned obviously because it's in scripture but that is the sort of reading that in our modern racial sense would be genuinely anachronistic it wouldn't have the same connotations for them as for us so you know was she referring to the fact that she was a shepherdess that worked outdoors and tanned or sunburned or was you know what was we we have no reason for thinking that it was an ethnic issue like David was

01:14:30

I'm sorry not David the Joseph in the Old Testament was referred to as Ruddy or perhaps it was David or maybe they both were yeah yeah it was

01:14:39

David yeah and then Esau was red probably so anyway we want to make sure that we don't read our modern ethnic tensions back into an ancient setting or wouldn't have had the same import at all that's the first thing the second thing is that people it's not that whites paint

01:15:06

Christ as white it's the Chinese well first I'm reformed

01:15:13

I'm reformed I don't think we ought to be painting portraits of Jesus in any color right one of my few disagreements with R .C.

01:15:23

Sproul was having the giant picture of Jesus in the narthex of the church there at St. Andrew's yeah so I basically

01:15:30

I'm on second commandment issues I don't think we ought to be painting portraits of Christ but let's say let's sidestep sidestep that and make it a picture of the

01:15:41

Apostle Paul or you know a picture of Joseph and Mary something like that if I go to China and I see their artists painting them as Chinese and I see black artists in Africa doing the same

01:15:58

I don't think anything of it we you know we do that if you watch Kenneth Branagh's Henry VIII so Henry VIII played by Kenneth Branagh has a serious case of 80s hair because because the because the movie was made in the 80s and and we it's just a human trait that we tend to project on the ancient times things that are that we take for granted that are invisible to us but someone from outside our our culture could point out hey that's historically inaccurate and I would say yeah that's historically inaccurate

01:16:45

I grant that Jesus was not blue eyed brown hair you know yeah he wasn't blonde hair and we should yeah long long flowing hair looked like he was in a

01:16:58

Clairol commercial so yeah

01:17:05

I I object to pictures of Jesus where someone is making the serious point that he belongs to my particular ethnic group but if it's just a human foible where you you tend to think of you know when when if someone says hey how do you imagine

01:17:27

Adam and Eve what race I you know I think Adam and Eve are probably closer to Chinese than anything right and or Noah and his wife and if if they're coming off the ark and you've got a picture of them and they're they he looks like Noah looks like a

01:17:43

Mongol chieftain and that brings you up short then okay you were reading too much of your own modern ethnocentrism into the ancient world but it's not a big deal yeah

01:17:59

I guess a lot of it has to do with the motivation behind why someone is made to look a certain way even though there is biblical evidence that they weren't from the region that is the painting would imply about what we don't typically know the motives of somebody's paintings right there could be a good story that I I could illustrate this with it doesn't have to do with ethnicity but it illustrates how background assumptions can can dominate your thinking when

01:18:31

I was in the navy I was in the submarine service and we went to one time we went to Guantanamo Bay Cuba and I was a

01:18:40

Cold War kid grew up in the grew up in the 50s and 60s I mentioned earlier grew up in Annapolis, Maryland which is close to DC which meant that our our school used to have nuclear war drills right what to do with all the kids when in case of nuclear war well

01:19:00

I grew up in this Cold War setting and I joined the navy I joined the submarine service and we were going to Cuba now

01:19:08

Guantanamo Bay is held by we hold that but the country is communist country and I remember vividly the moment

01:19:15

I came up out of the hatch we were sailing into the harbor we came up I came up out of the hatch and got my first glimpse of Cuba and I was startled

01:19:24

I was surprised you know whoa and I was startled I said I suddenly realized

01:19:30

I was startled because it was in color and I thought what what on earth well

01:19:37

I had grown up my picture of communist countries was a grainy newsprint photo of Budapest in the rain

01:19:47

I thought of communism in black and white and I'd done done that my whole life and then

01:19:54

I saw this emerald green tropical paradise time in this country and I was surprised well

01:20:02

I had never given a moment's thought to that right it wasn't it was just an unspoken assumption and I don't think anybody ought to be faulted for that kind of thing it's just amusing so when you assume that Noah and his wife were

01:20:18

Caucasian and someone paints them as oriental well you think well that's interesting but if you cling tenaciously know they had to have been suburban white people then you've got a problem yeah and if they were depicting

01:20:40

Moses and his wife they would have to be different in appearance because Moses's sister was very bigoted against his wife and God struck her white with reluctancy as a result of her sin right because Moses had married a

01:20:57

Kushite woman in Numbers chapter 12 and that would be normally understood as a black person wouldn't it right from Ethiopia right and also interestingly a little free information

01:21:13

Josephus that's not scripture but Josephus tells the backstory of that and as Josephus recounts it when

01:21:23

Moses was still a prince in Egypt before he left for Midian the first time he had besieged a city named

01:21:33

Saba and the queen of the city had fallen in love with him from the city wall and offered to surrender the city if he would marry her and and so he he agreed the city fell and that and Josephus says that that's where his wife came from now apparently she had not gone out with the exodus but shows up in the camp later and my guess is that it threw the balance of power off and Miriam was

01:22:06

I think it was a little bit of palace intrigue where Miriam objected to the arrival of this new important person but she was an

01:22:15

Ethiopian princess we uh have a listener named

01:22:22

Susan and he used to talk at Long Island New York doesn't have a question but has a word of I think affectionate warning for you okay she says

01:22:33

Doug should be very careful because his name is high on the condemnation list at the

01:22:38

Southern Poverty Law Center yes and an evangelical Christian should actually wear that as a badge of honor shouldn't they yeah

01:22:47

I like to say the Southern Poverty Law Center the world's richest civil rights organization yeah right now why why don't why do they dislike you why don't you explain that well they put us on a list of hate groups and stuff in the past years ago and I think that basically their reason for doing it is to raise money from liberals because the liberals need to believe that white evangelicals are the biggest threat to our country right now and whenever there's fear there's a fundraising opportunity and so the

01:23:30

Southern Poverty Law Center has made a lot of money out of scaring people with tales of doom and dire danger coming from people like us when we just want to be left alone yeah so and basically in other words nobody should take seriously anything they have to say they are a slander factory are they not they are so they you know they put they put groups smaller groups like ours on their list but they've also targeted people like the

01:24:09

Family Research Council I think and you know just crazy things well thank you

01:24:16

Susan and Issa to talk at Long Island New York now let's get into the heart of why this is more than just something annoying and more than something that can very seriously disrupt or in an earthly sense ruin the life of a person a family a business a church if they are falsely accused of racism when there is absolutely no basis for it there's something beyond that going on here that we should be aware of in regarding to the political arena is there not yes there is what

01:25:04

I've said for years that all of our culture wars are basically battles over who is going to have control editorial control of the dictionary okay if they if they have control of the dictionary they have control of the

01:25:25

Bible if they can if they can define terms then they can define

01:25:32

God man woman boy girl they can define hate is another term they've defined race racism so they can say you're a white supremacist by definition you are racist you are racist by definition why because we control the dictionary right and and quite honestly there's no defense against that sort of thing if they if they're going to condemn you they're going to condemn you and you can't you can't do anything about it there's no need for a trial because you're guilty by definition right and so the issue is what what

01:26:16

I want to do is every attempt that they make to define a term

01:26:22

I want to challenge them at every every instance of it where they say hate is not a family value right or they they want to say there's such a thing as homophobia someone who's fearful of homosexuals well

01:26:40

I've been counseling a lot of people for many many years I've been I've been in Christian circles my entire life and I have never met would never once met someone who had a phobia of homosexuals you know

01:26:54

I've actually actually I think politicians do across the board yeah they are they're the true homophobes typically both on the democratic and right and the republicans they're actually the truth of folks right they don't they don't want to say something how however obvious it is and however true it is they don't want to say anything that's going to get them blow back or or to be challenged and so I don't see

01:27:29

I don't see where does this homophobia come from well it's just simply decreed as this problem and all of a sudden if I am not a practicing muslim and I think that islam is a threat

01:27:44

I'm islamophobic well wait wait can't what happened to just simple disagreement what happened to opposition why do

01:27:54

I have to be are you saying that general eisenhower was not phobic no you can be enemies you can fight you can be staunchly opposed without having an irrational fear of so if someone's claustrophobic or someone's agoraphobic or so if someone is has a a true phobia that is an irrational fear you know fear of flying or fear of lights or fear of open spaces that's an irrational fear

01:28:31

I've not met anybody who's afraid of homosexuals per se and if they were we then have to go on to discuss if it was irrational or not you know is this is there a real threat there so basically what this comes back to is control of the dictionary if they have if they have control of the dictionary then they get to define race they get to define racism they get to define white supremacy they get to define white privilege well but there are all sorts of worldview assumptions underneath these things so for example if someone says well yeah but you were born in America a majority white country so you can't deny that you have white privilege certain privileges that someone who does not share your ethnic background doesn't have and I would say that's right but that's not a sin why is it why is it isn't when

01:29:33

I get to Thanksgiving and I bow my head and say grace over the food

01:29:39

I'm fed and other people are hungry isn't that a privilege we're warm it's cold outside isn't that a privilege what are we thanking

01:29:47

God for if not our privileges when did privilege become a sin right right well it became a sin because they're running they're in control of the dictionary right and I think that Maxine Waters living in her multi -million dollar home would have a hard time convincing a poor white family from Appalachia that their whiteness gave them any privilege at all in this country right so some of it is just absolutely ridiculous and it's really the hurling of the slander racist everywhere at anyone who disagrees with the leftist agenda isn't it really just to neutralize any argumentation and commentary and beliefs that we care to present in the public square it's like you know if you're calling somebody a pedophile or something immediately no matter what the person says or does even if they are completely innocent this satanic crime it's going to be hard to overcome such a an accusation in the minds of those who are standing there when the accusation is made right right so they're doing it because it works right they're making these accusations against us because we care what they say one one of the things we have to do is we have to stop caring what they're saying just i would put it pretty strongly if you go to a church and your pastor has not been accused of racism you need to ask him what he's doing wrong that's right yeah and one of the things that is utterly insane about this whole thing is not only is the woke movement the intersectionality movement the black lives matter movement the critical theory movement not only is it all racist and bigoted and hateful towards white heterosexual males they are actually ironically saying things that are really insulting to people of the black community for instance this whole idea of trying to diminish and remove many of the qualifications such as voter id from being able to vote because well that's that's racist because you know you're trying to stop black people from voting it is treating black people like they are incapable of doing a simple task is getting a voter id which is just totally untrue there are many things that that black citizens need to do just like white citizens and brown citizens and asian citizens need to do that involve ids so i mean this is really like flying on an airplane yeah exactly and isn't this whole concept of hurting people's feelings being elevated to such a high level of importance and such a high level of wickedness in the minds of the left isn't that in and of itself a bigoted understanding or attitude towards those who are minorities or whoever is the protected group that the that the left is trying to protect from these hurtful statements when is it a good thing and a complementary thing to treat anybody like a fragile delicate little child right what is that a healthy thing to perpetuate that atmosphere not only a person like a child growing up but a nation what is how is this a healthy thing it's demented so it used to be that you were you were an offensive person if you said or did an outrageous or offensive thing right if you if you went up to someone and started calling them names or calling their mother names or if you did this offensive boorish rude thing then you were you were offensive but now we've moved it around so you're an offensive person if another person is offended okay or acts offended and they don't they all they have to do is act offended they don't have to show that there was ever actual ever any actual contact so what's happening is we have a world full of women and blacks race hustlers homosexuals who are flopping like belgian soccer players so you can you come within three feet of them and they they flip over backwards and start rolling around on the field and we've gotten to the point where if someone's rolling around on the field holding their knee then you must have hit them right right it used to be that you were a vile person if you said something vile but now you're a vile person if someone else erupts and starts calling you vile names so if your behavior causes someone else to behave in a vile way then you're the vile person right you're the you're the racist if a black person starts yelling at you well because black people are sinners just like the white people just like white people are if you start paying them if they start getting rewards for false accusation then you're guess what you're going to get more of them you're going to start getting false accusations by the way folks it just occurred to me that I should recommend our listeners to listen to the interview

01:37:04

I just did very recently with Virgil Walker who is co -host along with Daryl Bernard Harrison of the

01:37:12

Just Thinking podcast and he's also the executive director of operations at the

01:37:17

G3 ministries the ones who conduct the G3 conference I did

01:37:24

I conducted an interview with Virgil that turned out to be utterly fascinating on the southern baptist conventions caving in to the woke movement in fact in the title of our interview

01:37:41

I identified it as how a denomination that was purged of liberalism could go back and poison itself at the very same well and it's a really insane thing going on with that denomination but when we come back from our final break which is going to be a lot shorter than the other two breaks

01:38:09

I'd like you to discuss the whole concept of why any affection towards confederate history in this country is not a sign necessarily that a person is hateful and bigoted and then we'll have you address that when we return if anybody wants to join us our email address again is chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:38:39

chrisarnson at gmail .com give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the

01:38:46

USA only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter don't go away we'll be right back with Doug Wilson right after these messages from our sponsors hello dear ones my name is

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01:50:28

Welcome back This is our final segment of today's interview with Doug Wilson and if you have a question

01:50:35

I would suggest that you send it in immediately because we're rapidly running out of time chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:50:41

chrisarnson at gmail .com and before the break I had mentioned that we were going to be entering now a very controversial issue that even

01:50:50

I would imagine divides a lot of conservative Bible -believing Christians and even Reformed ones

01:50:56

That's the whole concept of how to view the

01:51:01

Confederacy historically Should there ever be any affection towards the Confederacy and those that were well -known figures fighting for the cause of the

01:51:12

Confederacy Robert E. Lee comes to mind as a figure that many Reformed Christians even if they're

01:51:18

Yankees seem to have a great affection for and I think he is a greatly misunderstood figure as well but if you could tell us about that what your thoughts are on that sure the

01:51:33

American Civil War is probably one of the most written about historical events ever you know it's a fascinating thing to historians and biographers and so forth but one thing that I think we need to come to grips with is that after the war that war killed over 600 ,000

01:51:54

Americans all right so it was a it was a devastating judgment from God on both both

01:52:02

North and South it was a really hard providence very hard providence one of the things that the country did in coming back together in and I'm saying after Reconstruction and so forth one of the things that the cooler heads on both sides decided to do was they made a peace by both sides being proud of how both sides fought right so think about this for a minute up until recent memory the

01:52:40

United States Navy was naming ships after Stonewall Jackson for example right right so you could so you had this great

01:52:49

Civil War and the when the South was brought back into the

01:52:56

Union and it was it was bumpy and you know it was bumpy and horrendous in lots of ways the reason it was navigated at the end of the day was because both sides embraced how both sides fought right it was sort of embraced as a

01:53:17

Civil War now what's happened in the last half generation is that deal that treaty is being broken right and and it's not being broken because certain

01:53:32

Yankees have decided to declare war on the South again it's being broken because the woke want to declare war on America they they want to go after the

01:53:45

South and the North that's why when these statues have been pulled down they've been pretty indiscriminate about is that a

01:53:54

Union General or a Southern Confederate General well we're not sure and it doesn't matter even abolitionists statues have been desecrated and torn down right and black soldiers who fought for the

01:54:06

North a memorial for them was desecrated so basically what this is is an attempt to get us going at each other's throats again and what we need to do is resist the woke wokeness is not the cure wokeness is the disease so I can think that I can believe that Robert E.

01:54:28

Lee was a conscientious Christian man and look up to him and honor him as I do and respect him as I do and not believe that slavery was a positive good like food air and sunshine

01:54:46

Robert E. Lee didn't believe that yes I understand that he used to have debates over the legitimacy of slavery with Stonewall Jackson and so it is obviously we could take two hours talking about that one issue itself but what do you say about how do you respond to there are

01:55:15

Christian men who would be right on the same page with us I mean even you and I differ on many things theologically but they would be relatively on the same side on us on many as us on many issues and yet they would say a statue is a statue it's not a human being if it offends people let them take it down let them take the confederate flags down because even if you view it one way that may have some nobility to it too many people are going to be offended by it and not unnecessarily hurt by it how do you react to that that attitude that that even some of my personal friends have yeah

01:55:57

I would say okay great how about the American flag right all right the American flag flew over slave owners didn't didn't it right the uh the

01:56:09

American flag is is is flying over a country that has killed 60 million unborn children do we take that down what what is basically when you're capitulating you don't know where it's going to stop

01:56:26

Winston Churchill once said that an appeaser is someone who throws everybody else to the crocodiles hoping hoping to be the last one eaten appeasement doesn't work right you're just not going to be able to you're not going to be able to say oh

01:56:44

I don't care that much about the the romantic legends of the old south we can just give in and it's going to stop and go away well the answer is no it's not going to stop and go away then you take the

01:56:59

Redskins out of the Washington Redskins and they're going to be back next year demanding you take the Washington out of the

01:57:05

Washington Redskins right and in fact from what I understand there were hardly any

01:57:10

Native Americans who were opposed to that name in fact they were they were somewhat proud of it right right in other words the the wokeness one of the things that people have to understand is this woke business is really a white problem right right white suburban

01:57:30

Karen moms and the one of the evidences of that is that as long as I've been a

01:57:38

Christian I've noticed something very interesting in regard especially being from New York originally the black community even when they identify with liberal politics and vote for Democrats and campaign for Democrats they have as a people typically in the community still nonetheless been opposed to same -sex marriage opposed to homosexuality as a practice and yet this whole woke movement has that as one of its highest reasons promoting those things as one of its highest reasons for existence well we are out of time now and I want to make sure that our listeners have all of your contact information well actually let's see if I can squeeze in a quick question from a listener from Palm Bay, Florida Thomas wondering if Pastor Wilson has read the article by Kevin DeYoung and it's a gospel coalition article so I don't

01:58:45

I couldn't even give you the website it's too long do you know are you familiar with what he's talking about? the recent one about that he was talking about the four different types of reform type yeah

01:58:57

I read it the other day and appreciated it very much okay well thank you Thomas in fact I think you're a first -time questioner send me a full mailing address because you've just won a free

01:59:07

New American Standard Bible by virtue of being a first -time questioner well once again

01:59:13

I want to let our listeners know that if they want to find out more about Christ's Church of Moscow you can go to Christkirk .com

01:59:21

that's Christ K -I -R -K the Scottish word for church Christkirk .com and also to find out more about Doug Wilson himself

01:59:30

Dougwills .com D -O -U -G -W -I -L -S abbreviation for Doug Wilson Dougwills .com

01:59:37

thank you so much for being such an excellent guest on the program I look forward to your frequent return to Iron Trump and Zion Radio brother thanks much thanks for having me

01:59:45

I want everybody to have a safe blessed and happy weekend and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater