Should We Pray for Derek Webb?

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People are tired of hearing nothing but doom and despair on the radio.

The message of christianity is

that salvation is found in christ alone and any who reject christ therefore forfeit any

hope of.

Salvation any hope of heaven.

The issue is that humanity is in sin and the wrath of almighty

god is hanging over our head.

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come they will be consumed and they will perish.

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Welcome to bible bash where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask.

We're your host harrison kerrigan pastor tim mullet and today we're joined by pastor conley owens as we

answer the age -old question should we pray for derrick webb.

Now before we get into uh the discussion the meat of this episode i guess first i just want to say welcome

back conley.

This is like episode four or five for you.

So five.

So you know we're getting to the point man we we probably just need to have like your own dedicated uh we need a

higher power in the podcast.

Yeah we gotta we gotta hire you on man.

It's free a contract worker or

something.

Man we gotta we gotta do something for you.

But it's good it's good to have you back it's good to see you again.

Thanks good to be here.

Um so you know like like we said uh the title question for today is should we pray for derrick webb.

Now i'm gonna i'm gonna confess uh i'm gonna confess to you guys that i actually died.

You know i as a younger guy uh i don't know much about derrick webb.

So i'm gonna i'm gonna defer over to conley and let conley explain a little bit about why we're

why we're even mentioning derrick webb in this in this episode.

Can i defer over to tim and have him explain who wants to be the.

Oldest guy here right now.

Yeah so i go go ahead.

Tim.

All right.

So uh i i guess the the context here is i i never really was that into music so i

don't know a whole lot but uh derrick webb was a guy who was part of caveman's call.

I remember some song that i had on some uh you know worship music album i used to listen

to way back in 2003 or something like that and uh later on.

And i wasn't i wasn't really paying attention to any of this.

So this only became uh i only became aware of a lot of this very recently.

But uh he left the faith at some point in the early 2010s i suppose.

And uh now he's started making quote -unquote christian music again or at least it's music

about christianity.

But he's not making it as a christian he's making it as one who has left the faith about christianity.

And anyway recently i came across a facebook post that had a picture of him and address

and said uh pray for derrick webb.

And i responded uh that we shouldn't pray for derrick webb.

So yeah i'd like to i'd like to get into that today because i think bible actually does give us uh pretty clear

guidelines on who we should pray for and who we shouldn't pray for and how we should pray for each person.

So uh i don't think that we can just broadly say.

Um that we should pray for each and every person the same way.

Yeah so right now.

Yeah right now.

Derrick webb is kind of uh wrestling with this category of an ex -christian so i think it's a safe to

kind of safe to put him in the category of an apostate.

But what did you have harrison.

I was just gonna say you know as someone who is just like i don't know anything about this guy

uh i all i have is i watched the i guess this is one of his you know most recent

videos the one the one that you were that you're talking about conley uh where he's

number one he's singing the song with someone who's named uh flamie

grant and it's it's the the person flamie grant is a man

in drag.

And then uh and then um you know well they're both in drag.

They're both in drag.

Derrick webb is in drag as well with blue hair and you know blue eye shadow and these

ridiculously large eyelashes.

It's it's pretty bad.

I'm i'm definitely i'm i'm putting this in the thumbnail.

So so if i if i had a good if i had a good way to show the video right now we would be

playing the video because this is just i mean it's utterly astounding honestly so it's very disturbing to

look at you know and and i think some of the lyrics of the lyrics are were uh pretty

blatantly um you know like anti bible you know where basically

it's the same it's the same tired um you know hey if the church doesn't celebrate you

for who you are then then the church is wrong and you know you're beautiful and it's like i'm looking at

derrick webb and dragon and he's anything but beautiful.

You're not persuaded i'm not persuaded at all you know and and i guess you know hey look if look

you know if you're a murderer and the church doesn't celebrate you then i guess the church is wrong there too you know

and and if you're a thief then and the church isn't celebrating you then the church is wrong there too

i mean the church just needs to celebrate everyone.

That's what jesus would have done.

Apparently according to derrick jesus wanted us to be true to ourself.

So yeah he wanted he wanted us to follow our hearts.

And you know forget the forget the fact that your heart is evil above all things you know just ignore

that tiny little detail and you're golden i guess well i guess i guess connelly like the the

broader um.

The broader question we're asking you know we're asking should you pray for derrick webb is the question should you pray for an apostate.

So what do you think connie.

Why don't you tell us first what what apostate is.

Because maybe um everyone doesn't know what that word is.

So tell us what.

Apostate is.

And tell us why we shouldn't be praying for them.

Sure.

Maybe i can say even before that you know part of this.

Uh you know a lot of these um uh a lot of the the titles of these episodes are for their shock

value.

Right.

Because it sounds like it might sound like i'm saying that uh you know someone's sin is bad enough

therefore we shouldn't pray for them because that sin is bad enough.

Uh not exactly.

I'm not.

I'm not saying that uh that there aren't people who god can radically save from

the gray sins or that he ever doesn't acknowledge repentance rather he's revealed in his words.

Something special about apostates.

And apostate is uh that word can be used in different senses but the primary sense is

someone who leaves the faith completely having been part of it and then renounced it saying they

uh you know don't believe its core tenants anymore.

Now this is this is different than another sense which some people use the word apostate where it's someone who has left the

practice of the faith but not the belief of the faith.

So for example you might see the word apostate used to describe someone who has fallen

into great sin or something like that.

But i'm i'm using it in that first sense someone who has rejected the tenants of the faith.

And so the bible.

Yeah the bible talks about this on a number of occasions.

And i guess we could uh i don't know if we want to get into all those right now because man i could just talk for a long time

but uh basically god has revealed that this sin there is no turning back from it

there is no repentance granted to the one who has apostatized.

And uh therefore if we were to pray according to god's will to pray contrary to that revealed will

that there is no repentance for one who has apostatized would be to pray against his will.

And uh very simply not a prayer that would be answered fair enough.

So i mean i think you've.

Said a lot of things there.

Um in terms of like basically you've spelled out this responsibility to actually pray according to god's will.

And i don't know that everyone intuitively thinks that way about prayer in

general.

Like as if the prayer has guardrails on it or any responsibilities.

I mean in fact i mean most of most of the time when i'm getting in trouble as it relates to the topic

of prayer it's normally related to the subject of mentioning

that there's any responsibility that a christian has to pray in any specific way at all.

So maybe you could comment on that.

And you know make your case as to why we're supposed to actually pray in specific ways.

I mean isn't it fine.

I guess the question i would ask along those lines was like isn't it fine just to pray for anything like why is there why

can't we just pray for anything and let god figure it out you know.

Right right.

Yeah it.

It is uh something that a lot of people don't get.

I remember talking to one person who said you know i know the bible says that not everyone will be saved but isn't it

good to hope that everyone could be saved.

Or that.

Or to pray that.

You know uh that everyone would be saved.

Right.

And yeah his his idea seemed to be that this is a better outcome than the one that god has determined and therefore i'm

going to pray for that thing even though god has determined otherwise.

Uh yeah it's no.

We're never we're never to pray against god's will.

We're never to think that our will is better than god's will.

And so just like jesus did not your will but mine we're to we're to pray according to god's will.

Yeah.

I guess i guess that's kind of an.

Interesting thought.

Because you know i think most christians probably think the

same way that that person you know whoever it is that you're talking about.

And in terms of like hey i'm just i know not everyone is going to be saved but i want to hope

you know that everyone will be saved.

Or at least like you know most of them will be saved or something along those lines.

Um and and i i don't necessarily imagine that those people are thinking that

you know coming from a place of of like hey i know better than god.

Here they're not.

I don't think they're like probably consciously thinking i know better than god.

But then the reality is if god has said you know not everyone will be saved.

And i mean just go read romans 9 and what you know what it says there about.

You know how god is determining uh who he's you know who he's choosing to redeem and who he's not

choosing to redeem.

Uh whether whether you're consciously thinking it or or not it does it does seem like what you were hoping

for is is essentially saying like hey i am i am more merciful

than god because i want everyone to be saved.

And god doesn't want everyone to be saved.

Right.

That's that's what.

You're getting at basically you're asking him and you're kind of asking him to be more merciful than.

He's told like revealed himself to be essentially right and and then at that point you're basically

you're also at the same time asking god to not be perfectly just as

well right.

Yeah you're.

Introducing some new standard of goodness that you're asking god to conform to not recognizing that he is the standard of

goodness.

And yeah just to point people to some scriptures on this uh james 4 -3 says.

You ask and you do not receive because you ask and miss that you may spend it on your pleasures.

So yeah if we if we ask just what pleases us rather than what pleases god.

Um we won't receive it.

And that's what you see throughout scripture is that david he asks things that he desires but he makes sure that they

are in line with god's desires where he says in order that your mercy may be known in order that your your glory

may be seen so that i can praise you.

You know he has ways of uh tying this into to what god has revealed about himself that he

desires to show these things to man uh.

But you see later on in uh i guess not necessarily uh later on because it's not the same book but

first john uh 5 14 says.

And this is the confidence that we have toward him that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us.

And if we know that he hears us.

And whatever we ask we know that we have the requests that we have asked of him.

So there's an assurance that as we ask according to god's will because god does all that is his will

and his will is good.

If we are asking for good things they are actually there is a a 100 assurance if we happen to

know god's will in a matter for example if we pray for the return of christ we know that he will answer that prayer.

Right.

There are things where we're feeling out god's will.

And we don't we don't know for certain because we're uh fallible beings.

But in as much as we are praying in line with god's will we can be that assured that we will uh

get the answer that we're anticipating.

I think it's.

Just so i mean that really is such an important concept that i think most people don't realize about prayer in general.

I mean before we like dive into more of the reasons why um you're going to tell us it's wrong to

pray for apostates but i think it's such an important part of prayer in general that most people i think most

people are just kind of um treating prayer like they're blindfolded and they're throwing door you know darts at a dart board or

something and hope they stick.

Uh instead of just instead of thinking about like what is god's will and how can i pray

what i know his will to be.

And so people have.

I mean people obviously have that kind of concept to some limited degree as it relates to

like i shouldn't ask god to let me sin or something like that right.

So i think most people would would like if if you're praying for something that's explicitly condemned

in the bible as like a sin that you shouldn't do.

I think most people would maybe have some sort of break at that point but then you know just related to the concept

of praying towards god's will in general that you do have to kind of know what his will is for the world

and try to align your will towards that will and and you know there might be a lot of things that are just purely neutral but

you know trying to think well what you know how do i like align this request to

god's priorities and god's values and that might be that there's a lot of things that you're asking for that have nothing to do with

any of his priorities values at all.

Exactly.

So okay i have a question along the lines of this just to kind of maybe to help some people

think through this issue and we'll just use my life as like as the as the uh

lab as the lab work on this.

Um so recently i um i found it i found an auction

for um some guns that i want to buy and so i put in i put in some bids for

them.

And then i remember thinking to myself like i was i was driving home and i was thinking like

i wonder if i should pray to god and ask him to give me those guns.

That i that i uh put in bids for right and then i and then you know

i started thinking about it and i was like man that really feels like selfish

desires that i'm asking for right there you know.

But so so that that feels like selfish desires right now let's assume it hasn't

happened yet.

So i i don't know what what is going to happen with all that but let's assume you know

i get i actually get some of them right.

Um whether or not you know you know whether or not i actually prayed for it let's just assume that i

do get some of them now that that means that uh it was

god's will for me to get some of them right.

So then am i you know uh am i still praying contrary to god's will

at that point because you know in the future i did actually get them or you know

does it not matter.

Because hey you know like that's obviously just selfish desire type stuff.

How does that work.

Well there's a distinction between god's prescriptive.

Will and his decretive will.

So uh or uh other categories people use our secret and revealed will.

Basically he has revealed he has prescribed what is what is good.

What.

Uh.

So for example you know his glorification is good.

He has uh prescribed that uh different good works are good that other things are evil

and evil things happen all the time.

So just the fact that it comes to pass and it's part of his decretive will that it uh

occurs according to his decree does not necessarily make it something that was good to pray for.

You know you couldn't pray for uh you know the death of 100 people or whatever.

Right.

And the fact that 100 people die that that would be a good thing.

Necessarily.

Right.

Right.

Um.

Right.

So you can't just uh.

Yeah you can't just pray for something and it become good because because it comes to pass rather.

Yeah what we're talking about god's will here is that his uh that his

priorities be glorified.

And uh in the.

Occurrences that happen.

I mean he could give you those guns so that your wife could shoot you with.

Him

i mean we do have an assurance yeah yeah we do have an assurance that uh

that all things come to pass for the good of those who love god in romans 8 28.

So we do know that anything that does come to pass does glorify him.

Uh so in that sense.

But if you're praying for it with the wrong you have to do it you know with the right reasons you have to know how it would

play out to you know his glorification etc.

If you're just using that as a phrase it doesn't mean anything.

Now counter counterpoint here though and you know i think this is i think this is.

You know i don't know what you're going to be able to say against this basically.

But you know guns guns equals freedom and freedom is good.

So you know god's god god loves god's god of freedom.

Right.

Yeah god god loves a gun totin american you know.

So there you go.

I don't.

You know i don't know what else to.

You man well you know i do think there are legitimate reasons to to own guns as

do you apparently.

Right.

And so uh yeah and multiple.

Multiple.

And so if we're if we're told to pray to god for daily bread and for other things you know i don't think there's

anything wrong with incorporating anything that you might do that is reasonable into your prayer life however

you know it's once again is it for your own pleasures.

If it.

If it is for your own pleasures should you even be purchasing the thing.

Right.

So like it's the the command to pray in this way is not just a command to

limit what we speak to god about it's also a command to to change how we're living our lives.

So if you if you are doing something that you can't pray for god's blessing on maybe you shouldn't be doing that thing.

If you're doing something and it is reasonable then yes it's perfectly appropriate to go to the lord with that uh in a

way that is um that is acknowledging where it would fit into his his

priorities once again not for your own pleasures.

But with his priorities that's something that yeah that's something as i've looked at james for it and i've tried to pray

um prayers that weren't violating the spirit of james.

For it really does cause you to think about well why am i asking for this.

And am i asking for this for the right reason.

And it really does like help you to like think about like what you're actually doing in your life and what your the

decisions you're actually making.

And you know if you if you can't pray for it with a good conscience then you know as you're saying it really is an indication that maybe

you.

Shouldn't be doing the thing anyway.

All right i'll go.

All right.

Fine i'll go cancel the bill.

Hey hey you may need them you know in order to stop this tyrannical government

connelly really needs them because california just passed that bill or is trying to pass that bill that

will throw him in jail if any of his kids start to uh feel confused about their gender.

I'll send.

I'll send you the link to the auction connelly.

Get your collection up before they uh but all right.

So back.

I mean back to the title question.

Should we pray for.

Yeah pray for apostates.

What do you think.

So i'm sure you're.

You gave.

You gave one kind of answer but maybe elaborate on some more answers.

So what's.

What's the case.

What's.

The case you have for what.

So i'm sure you're yeah sorry.

So i'm sure your listeners are you know just dying to know the answer.

Because we haven't.

Really we haven't really gotten to like why.

Why shouldn't they.

Uh the very next verse i read i read first john for uh 5 14 that says if we ask for anything

according to his will he hears us.

And then 15 the very next verse addresses this matter.

It says.

If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death he shall ask and god will give him life to those who

commit sins that do not lead to death.

There is sin that leads to death.

I do not say that one should pray for that.

All wrongdoing is sin.

But there is a sin that does not lead to death.

So there is a sin that leads to death that we should not pray for it.

Now i've pointed this out to people and they have said well saying that you don't have to pray for this is not saying not

to pray for this.

And i would argue that there's no reason that john would would mention that uh someone doesn't

need to pray for this unless the point is that you shouldn't be praying for this thing.

Uh yeah we are not to pray for this one who's committed the sin that leads to death.

And so the question is what is the sin that leads to death.

And there is enough other scripture that confirms that this is referring to apostasy.

Uh a complete leaving of the faith rejection of the faith.

Maybe you could spell out before you.

Those reasons.

Maybe you could spell that out a little bit more as to why.

Um that leap is uh the explanation you just give.

It is um necessary you know.

So i mean i've talked to people about this verse in general and they will instantaneously go to the you know the argument that

you just made and they will say well he doesn't say that you shouldn't he just says he's not telling you to.

So why is that.

Uh why is that such a poor response.

Maybe elaborate on that a little bit.

Yeah well i'd be curious to hear your thoughts too.

But basically if we're supposed to be praying

if we're supposed to be praying according to god's will and he has revealed his will for him to say that

we should not be praying for that or that um that he does not say pray for that then it either means it

either means that god has not revealed about this matter.

In which case why not pray for it.

Because if it is possible then you you should pray to lead this brother away from death you know.

Or or that uh he has revealed contrary.

In which case you shouldn't be praying for it.

So either way you know james should be giving a firm answer to pray or to not pray.

Um the idea that he's he's just leaving it up in the air.

I don't know whether or not you should pray or that it's like of a lesser priority or something.

It's uh yeah this is a poor way of approaching scripture that i think comes from a desire to

a predetermined answer basically.

Yeah i think the whole idea too like just to piggyback on that a little bit too like the whole idea of praying according

to the will of god that seems like a positive instruction that we're actually told to model our prayers after

and so that.

And i think that that's the thing that many people they really um they i really think most people

most christians think that praying according to the will of god just simply means saying like adding that phrase lord

will willing at the end and so like it i think in their mind what they think is you just pray

anything.

You want to pray for whatever reason you want to pray it.

And that's totally cool right.

Just as long as you like don't hold on to it too tightly and say lord you can do it if you

want or don't do it if you want.

So i think most people in their mind that's kind of the hang up you know the hang up is they have this view of prayer

that you just like you're just like i said you're like a blindfolded person standing in front of dart

board and hoping something sticks or something like that instead of like there being like a real obligation that you

pray according to the will of god and if there's a real obligation even in that passage to pray according to god's will

and then he says i don't say that you should pray for that then that should tell you that like

if you want to pray confidently you need to figure out what god's will is.

And john just told you he's not telling you to pray for that.

Right.

So right.

Yeah exactly all.

Right.

So along those lines then i mean what's your case.

So what's your case.

So first john is talking about um the sin leading to sending the death and you're tying that

to like how do how do we know what that is.

Right.

So the next response that people are going to give is well whoever knows what that means right.

So who knows what that means.

Why do you think you know what it means.

Who are you.

How dare you you know.

Uh so what.

So.

Tell us tell us why it's.

Um what it is.

Yeah.

Well if john expects his readers to understand what he's saying uh we are those readers.

You know we should we should know what he's saying.

And as i said scripture gives us enough hints.

They're not just hints.

Uh scripture interprets scripture.

And it lets us know what this is.

Uh jesus is clear there's only one unforgivable sin.

You know he talks about all the different things that will be forgiven.

But the one thing that will not be forgiven is blasphemy of the holy spirit.

And uh so if this is if this is the sin that can't be forgiven that we shouldn't be

praying for god to forgive.

And jesus told us what that one thing is.

That gives us an answer.

And then uh furthermore there's the related passage in hebrews 6 which likewise speaks of

uh the impossibility of repentance for the one who is apostatized.

And so when you realize that none of this makes any sense unless all these passages are talking about the same thing

uh that's when you are able to build this together and say ah these are all.

Talking about apostasy because you get you get.

Why does it.

Why does it not make any sense unless they're all.

I mean i agree with you.

I'm just i'm just need to spell it out so.

But spell out why they all go together and then spell out why.

It wouldn't make any sense.

Right.

Well it wouldn't make any sense in that we wouldn't be able to understand completely what's being said.

And they are written for our instruction.

Right.

These words are written for us to understand.

So in order for them to be understood fully fully.

And that's what i mean by making sense is to be understood fully.

Which we know is uh it's a guarantee in a passage that's didactic like this.

So if we can understand it fully we should be able to know what the sin leads to death.

Is uh given that jesus has said that there is this unforgivable sin.

Uh we know that that's the same thing.

Now when jesus talks about this blasphemy of the holy spirit it's a little difficult to discern what that

is i would say apart from having the interpretation of hebrew which also describes what

it means to uh be one who cannot be forgiven who who will not be granted.

Maybe you can read hebrew six for us yeah where it clearly describes apostasy.

So yeah let's go ahead and look at hebrew six.

Uh it says in verse four.

For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened who have tasted the heavenly

gift and have shared in the holy spirit and have tasted the goodness of the word of god and the powers of the age to

come and then have fallen away to restore them again to repentance since they are crucifying once

again the son of god to their own harm and holding him up to content contempt.

So uh yeah just uh just to point out some things here.

Uh this is one who has once been enlightened a state to the heavenly gift shared in the holy spirit taste the goodness of the word of god and

powers of the age to come.

Now a lot a lot of people uh worry or wonder is this talking about the process of losing salvation.

Or someone who has the holy spirit and then loses it.

Like is it isn't that talking about losing salvation.

Or there are some people who say who have a calvinist understanding of salvation they say you can't you

can't lose your um you can't lose your salvation.

But this is actually talking about losing your salvation.

You know uh charles spurgeon if you go and you read his sermon on this he basically says that he says this is talking about

losing your salvation.

Now this is never happened before and it won't ever happen.

But it's a hypothetical that could happen.

It's a.

Really it's a really weird take on it is that uh like treating the warning passage as essentially a

like an impossible hypothetical that's meant to um bring about perseverance essentially.

So it's a perseverance by telling you by warning you against something that.

Function can never happen.

Exactly yeah and i don't think that's a very sensible uh interpretation of this.

Rather you know we can see lots of examples in scripture where someone has the influence of the spirit on their life.

That is temporary right.

Like saul in the old testament the holy spirit comes on him and uh he prophesies.

Now a lot of people really get hung up on the pronouns of in versus on and stuff.

And i think that's uh honestly like a little misguided but uh also talking about tasting the

heavenly gift talking about being enlightened having tasted the goodness of the word of god what i think this is all

really getting to is not an experience of salvation but rather an

experience of the goodness of god so that your knowledge of the truth is not merely a propositional one

when it comes to the truth of salvation but an experiential one where you have you have felt the

goodness of what god is doing in his church.

Uh in a in an immediate sense not not a mediated way where you've you've heard about it or even you know

even gone to church and heard about it but rather have experienced it more fully.

So when i'm talking about leaving the faith i'm not talking about necessarily the the child who grows up in the church and

then they uh you know when they get there to their adulthood they have more freedom and so

depart from the faith you know say they don't believe it.

I think there's still a hope for for such a person.

Typically however because and the reason i say that is because they haven't necessarily

experienced what this is talking about you know they haven't necessarily participated in the fellowship in such a way to have

to have been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift.

But one who has been a part of the church in a larger capacity we have reason to say that they

have tasted the heavenly gift they have experienced these things and as such.

Then when they reject the word of god not just as a proposition but as something that they have no excuse to reject as one who has

experienced this goodness uh they're not losing so their salvation.

Rather they're one who has experienced the realities of salvation without having experience without having been saved

and then.

Reject reject that truth.

Would you think that part of that is um you know i'm i'm kind of thinking out loud here but this is something i've thought about over

the years with these passages but related to like tasted um the heavenly gift.

And like been once been enlightened having tasted.

Having a gift i mean over and over again as you're reading through hebrews it seems like the frequent kind of admonition is

you know today if you hear his voice you don't do not harden your heart as they did in rebellion.

And i mean obviously like the holy spirit he works on people in different ways and one of the ways that he works on people was to convict them

of sin righteousness and judgment and so like it.

You know if i'm trying to describe the difference between maybe like the kid growing up in church who uh as

compared to the difference between what you're talking about it seems like um part of

that might be just a real experience of conviction of the holy spirit that they had like he's been convicting them

and convicting them and they're suppressing that and unrighteousness and ignoring that.

But what do you think that that would be part of how you would explain the holy spirit language in there.

Or how do you explain the holy spirit language in there.

Are you more talking about it in terms of just like phenomenologically like experiencing the work of the holy spirit with other

people.

Like is there any aspect of the holy spirit being at work in the apostate.

Uh short of you know obviously indwelling or something like.

That that you're.

You think that this is referred to.

Right.

Yes uh there is some work short of indwelling short of what the believer has.

Where.

Uh.

And that's why jesus is willing to call this blasphemy of the spirit.

Right.

Because it is.

And he says that blasphemy against the sun will be forgotten but blasphemy against the spirit.

You think.

Why would why would he distinguish the sun and the spirit this way as it's not like the the spirit is higher than the

sun rather is that the spirit is the one who communicates these convictions these truths

uh to the heart of someone.

And then if they reject that truth there is a there is a higher level of uh

culpability such that because they are crucifying the son of god again and that's the way it

phrases you know the guilt of having done this.

Because they are doing this god will never grant them repentance.

And now it's not saying that he would never forgive one who comes to him in repentance.

So you know a lot of people get concerned that maybe they've committed the unpardonable sin or something like that.

If if you come to god in repentance you can be assured that you're you are not one who has committed the sin but

he is saying that he will never grant repentance to the one who has committed.

The sin.

So basically you're saying there that you know someone who apostatizes himself.

They're never going to want to come back to the true church in the first place

right.

Exactly yeah.

They may be tormented of soul they may have regrets.

You know later on.

In hebrews it talks about uh esau.

Uh you know who found a place for repentance.

Right.

Yeah.

There might be diligent with tears and all that.

Right.

Yeah.

So there might be there might be torment assault.

You know.

You even think of judas right.

He had a lot of regret but he found a place for repentance.

Um so it's not that that worldly sorrow is not godly.

Is not godly repentance.

Um.

But yeah godly repentance will never be granted to the one.

They will never have that in their heart.

The holy spirit will never uh will never regenerate them so that they would be born again and have that uh

have that uh level of repentance.

If anything.

It would just be like a true repentance if anything.

It would just be like a regret you know for any sort of negative consequences they face in this you know in this

life for their apostasy or something like that.

Right.

Yes exactly.

Okay okay.

So would you describe that work of the holy spirit primarily in terms of the language of conviction or is there another category that you're

it's in your mind that you would describe the thing that they're rejecting the blasphemy of the holy spirit.

Like is that um mostly like through the work of the holy spirit convicting the

world of sin righteousness and judgment kind of thing.

Or is there broader than that you think.

I think it's i think it's.

Broader than that um given that this passage lists multiple things and doesn't just say having shared in the holy

spirit right having tasted the goodness of the word of god the powers of the enlightened having

tasted the heavenly gift.

Like basically there's a there's a fullness to the experience of realizing the power of the kingdom

and and you know experientially having engaged in a way that even though the child may be catechized

and taught that these things are true the one who has experienced it should they who has truly

experienced it should they reject it uh having having been a part of it and how there's like

the pharisees know that they knew.

That jesus's miracles were true miracles and.

Right.

They.

And that led them to want to kill him.

Right.

So that kind of thing is the kind of thing you're talking about.

Essentially right.

Yeah.

And.

They're they're uh part of the people of god.

They are like the hebrews uh book of hebrews making the analogy to the people in the wilderness you know

these are the people of god experiencing the works of god experiencing the miracles of god as it be performed through jesus

they are.

They are seeing the powers of the age to come and tasting the goodness of the word of god.

And as they reject it there is no uh you know there there is no forgiveness for that.

Because they'll never be granted repentance.

So how does that work.

You know when you think about like the doctrine of calvinism one of the five

core tenets of it i guess is you know irresistible.

Right.

So how do we.

How do we uh harmonize this idea of irresistible grace with

uh what.

The bible.

You know the bible is essentially telling us there are people who will experience.

They'll take you know they'll taste the goodness of the holy spirit and then blaspheme against the holy

spirit.

You know.

So it seems like they're you know like in some way resisting.

Now you know i want i want to hear your explanation because that might not be what's actually that might not be the you know most faithful

way to communicate it.

But i think that i think that's probably what some people are going to hear is that you know uh you

have this doctrine of irresistible grace meaning anyone who's called by god cannot resist that call.

Right.

But then you know i'm saying that it's resistible.

Yeah.

And yeah.

And some might hear you saying hey it is.

It is actually resistible according to this other passage in the bible.

So so how do we harmonize those two ideas.

Well well uh yeah.

In the reformed tradition there's a distinction between the general call of god and the effectual call of the the

spirit.

So the general call is just anytime the word is preached the effectual call is when the holy spirit uh

regenerates someone you know and they become born again born of the spirit.

And so there that general call may come in different ways.

It may come with various levels of work of the spirit.

And so when i am talking about someone rejecting i'm not talking about someone rejecting regeneration.

You know when the holy spirit regenerates someone when he changes their heart to desire christ.

Uh there's no there's no undoing that work of the spirit.

But if he presents this truth apart from regeneration and they reject that work if

he presents this truth in a in such an experience experiential way that i've described previously

uh then they are uh they're apostatizing.

And maybe maybe some more uh explanation would be helpful.

There's these passages you know i talked about how they are all linked.

There's more linkages as you look around and really this is just one of those times where you only begin

to understand this more fully as you learn your whole at least new testament if not old testament

also uh very fully because the next couple of verses in hebrews 6a for the land that has drunk the

rain that often falls on it and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated receives a blessing from

god.

But if it bears thorns and thistles it is worthless and near to being cursed and its end is to be burned.

And so i believe that's the author of hebrews here alluding to jesus parable of the soils.

Right.

You have the soil where the seed is cast on different grounds.

You have the good ground where the plant grows.

You have the ground that turns into thorns and thistles.

And you have the the ground that's hard where the the plant falls away as soon as the first trial

comes.

And so these are these are different kinds of uh faith.

Right.

You've got true faith.

You've got false faith.

That that uh that uh blows away very quickly like maybe perhaps the you

know child growing up in the in the church or something like that.

Or you have uh this apostasy faith where you have thorns and thistles.

And so i believe he's interpreting uh the pair he's further interpreting not that jesus doesn't already interpret his

parable but he's further interpreting.

That parable to speak of an apostate yeah i remember i i had to write a paper

um in school on you know the security of salvation for believers and

towards the end of the paper i had a essentially what was like a you know quote unquote problem

passages uh for my position in terms of like here's the passages that

people are going to go to to try and refute um the security of salvation.

And one of them was hebrews 6.

And when i was when i was studying all of those things what what you just mentioned was the was

i was the thing that kind of helped me get through hebrews 6 was

connecting it back to jesus's parable of this of the um sower of the seeds.

Because you know like i think just thinking of it in the abstract it's easy to get lost um

you know in the in the words that are being used in hebrews 6.

But then when you think about the the parable that jesus teaches there i mean when when you think about like

the um you know the the soil that produces uh a plant with

with a shallow root like it says and you know the sun scorches it basically meaning yeah the first

trial comes and they immediately fall away from the faith.

Well that or you know that has to mean something right.

Uh now i said i say fall away from the faith you know not necessarily in a true spiritual sense but at least in like a

what we see with our eyes sense you know that that has to mean something what you know and and

for us as you know finite beings who can't always see and understand what's going on behind the scenes

spiritually and we you know definitely can't know the depths of someone's heart uh

that means like there's times where you have someone who looks like they come to the faith

right.

They they look exactly the same as any other christian might.

But then the minute the minute trouble comes their way or the minute some temptation comes

their way they immediately drop everything and reject it.

Right.

And so i think that for me that was the that was the passage that really helped me get through

hebrews 6 and come to a place where i felt comfortable to say this just doesn't mean you know

what a lot of people often think it it means you know i mean jesus had to have meant something

besides just you know hey i i shared the gospel to someone and you know i guess

they you know they didn't look like a christian you know because then that would destroy my that would

destroy my interpretation of hebrews 6 that says you can actually fall away from the faith.

So it didn't look like a christian but there are somehow a plant that did grow up you know that looked

like all of the other christian plants that eventually yielded uh you know 60 times what was

put into them or 100 times what was put in them.

So at that point it just feels like it all falls apart.

Basically yep kind of question i have for.

You related to that too is just um like just in terms of responses that people have i want to ask you

like about responses that you've gotten as you've argued with people over the years.

But then i'll tell you about one response that i think it's kind of an argumentative guy.

What's that.

Oh yes.

Yes.

Because i'm such an argumentative guy because you're so cranky and you like to you know get under people's skin.

So uh by saying things i don't want to hear.

But uh no.

So you know you've noted you've noted that there's some kind of subject um or sometimes

it's hard right.

Sometimes it's hard to know the difference.

So like in terms of like with a child who's growing up in the church this whole time it may be difficult to know

whether or not they're in this category someone like derek webb webb it made me much more clearer.

So the response that you know i typically hear from people related to this kind of topic is just to say

that well because it's fuzzy.

Isn't it just better to be safe than sorry and just pray anyways.

And so what.

So isn't it just because you you know you can't know absolutely whether or not they fit in that

category.

So shouldn't we just hope the best hope for the best and keep on praying.

And what's the harm.

And just keep on praying you know.

So so functionally.

Yeah i mean maybe there's some kind of category of someone in the bible that we shouldn't pray for.

But because we're not god and we can't judge the heart.

Shouldn't we just hope the best and hope for the best and just pray anyways.

So what do you.

What do you think.

Connelly.

Yeah i i think we don't approach.

Just let go and let god.

Right let go and let god.

I don't i don't think we approach anything else that way.

You know when when you pray for someone you pray according to the knowledge that you have of them

and what you think about their uh about the state of their soul given given what's been revealed.

Right.

You don't cover your eyes and you know hope that it's other than what you've seen.

Um you know god has given us information to work off of to pray and more than that we have this

statement from james i do not say you should pray for such a one.

We ought to be able to incorporate that into our prayer life and not just pretend that we haven't been

given this uh.

While it's not stated imperatively that we haven't been given this command that we that it needs to affect our prayers.

But doesn't that mean that.

You're kind of like a hateful bigot.

Aren't you being judgmental like connelly.

Aren't you saying.

That you're better than i'm.

God.

Yeah yeah i i get to judge even though i can't see the heart.

Right.

Isn't it wrong to judge the heart like.

You know it's it's just something though we are that we are fallen and i acknowledge that any one of my prayers might

be you know a bit off because i have misread god's providence in

some situation i only have to go off of what i have to go off of and uh

god has instructed that we that we pray according to his will in what he has

revealed.

And so i can't just i can't just reject.

Um what what i've seen or what he has said about about apostates or what i've

seen with apostates apostasizing so is the person who wants to take that route.

They're basically saying that john never needed to give this command and in fact it's probably harmful that he did give this

command because we should just be giving everyone the benefit of the doubt.

All right.

The.

Follow -up then you know because we really don't want to apply this at all.

Kindly so i mean not not us i mean but just people.

No one wants to apply this.

Like so.

You sound like a crazy person asking them to to apply it so is it wrong right.

Are you saying it's like it's wrong to pray for someone like derek webb.

Are you saying it's just worthless.

Do you get what i'm saying.

Yeah.

No that's a that's a good question and i'm saying it is it is wrong to that at that point you are

praying against the will of god and we should not be praying against the will of god because that point we're praying for what pleases us

rather than what pleases god.

So it's not just.

That it's not going to work and you're wasting your time.

Is that you're actively fighting what god has said and his decree.

So how do we know when we're in that situation.

So give us some guardrails.

How can we be confident that we're in.

Um what are some guardrails.

To say hey um you know and it's not.

It's obviously not rocket science.

But come on give us give us some guardrails.

I mean to the to a certain type of person it certainly is like um who wants to make everything

absolutely muddy.

They can make this kind of thing muddy.

But what are some you know.

Um guardrails.

To tell you that.

This is you're in this territory.

Yeah i would say it's primarily has to do with the depth of their church involvement that as they are deep

in the community of god and they are experiencing the things that hebrew six describes that that then

having left the faith having rejected the tenets of the faith uh that is uh that is

apostatizing.

So i really just comes down to the matter of discerning.

Uh was this person who is now rejecting the faith.

Are they one who has once been enlightened who tasted the heavenly gift who shared in the holy spirit tasted the goodness of the word of god

and the powers of the age to come.

You know is that person one of these.

Or were they you know just a person who you know heard a few tenths of the faith thought that seemed like a good message

and you know believed it temporarily.

What you're discerning is is this the rocky soil.

Or is this the uh or is this the thorny soil.

And the one who uh is experiencing this stuff with and then rejecting it

uh truly experiencing the depth of that uh that's that work of the power of god.

So.

So um you know one question i have with with that distinction

that you've made is you know it seems like essentially you're talking about the person who was at a

like a faithful church to begin with and you know they they left at

some point basically.

Um so you know when we're talking about this idea of like apostates are we

putting heretics in that same or you know false teachers in that same category.

You know because because like sure derrick webb like maybe maybe he was in a good you know good church

and then now he's dressing in drag and saying that you know all churches should call them beautiful.

Or they're or people in drag beautiful or they're not real churches who are faithful to god.

You know that seems like that falls pretty clearly into the category you've made.

But then you know if you think about like a kenneth copeland for example you know i'm not sure you know

i'm not sure where he went to church growing up but you know i'm just going to assume for the sake of the argument

right now like let's just assume he went to a bad you know bad church to begin with was raised

up in that bad.

Maybe like a costume type or something like that.

Yeah yeah just someone just someone who went who went to a who basically isn't hearing the real gospel

to begin with and then takes that and you know runs with it essentially so they're not they're not free of

guilt in any way.

But then in your mind does that person fall into the category.

As well as someone who should not be prayed for yeah a false teacher you know they're not necessarily one

who has tasted the goodness of the word of god.

Uh so for example you know my uh i've got a co -pastor who was a former jehovah's witness and he

was one of the early users of youtube who was going on youtube and teaching a false gospel

um you know back when he was a teenager but he was a false teacher and so you

know god god saved him out of that.

So it is it is possible for false teachers to be saved however what scripture also reveals now this is not

apostasy is not the unpardonable sin but does reveal that as someone is engaged in that sort of thing and the lord has

handed them over and over that there is a reality to what the bible calls the hardness of heart.

And so our prayers for one who has been hardened need to

take a particular shape.

You know what i mean like we can't we can't pray for each thing the same way if it's possible we pray for with the

exact same you know level of uh optimism or assurance or whatever.

Right.

We we pray according to how god has revealed things and we need to understand that some things are in a very real sense even though

god is all powerful uh less likely than others or that god has revealed things that would

make it uh very surprising that he would answer certain prayers rather than others.

Right.

So uh you know anyone who had prayed for uh the man i just mentioned you know while he was

teaching a false gospel on youtube uh god answered their prayers but um but yeah

one who has been deep in it uh the way you ought to pray for them isn't necessarily

just to just not pray they would be saved.

I mean i suppose you could pray for their salvation.

But it definitely has to be attended with a with the understanding of the gravity of of what hardness of heart

is.

So does the church.

Maybe yeah tim has some clearer thoughts than i did on that last one.

Well i mean does church help with some of this related to the binding and loosing and the keys and keys of the kingdom.

And you know that kind of thing.

Does that uh do situations like that where church has formally declared someone to be an apostate

apostate give us a indication of like hey you know whatever's been bound on earth is going to be

uh bound in heaven you know loosened on earth.

Is that where you'd go with that too with just situations to give us confidence in.

I mean not every church discipline case is obviously like a great case of apostasy.

But then.

They're some of them are okay.

Right.

So yeah.

So i think that's a good question and maybe this won't be the most uh

developed answer but i would say you do see two different kinds of church judgments

distinguished in scripture.

There is the binding and loosing of matthew 18 where someone's being removed because of particular sin now

that person can be restored.

The bible is very clear about that.

You've got the man in first corinthians 5 who sleeping with his father's wife removed from the church.

And it is quite likely that in second corinthians 6 it's the same man being restored back to

the church.

How.

And you also have uh i believe it's second thesalonians 3 14 that

speaks of uh correcting someone not as an enemy but as a brother.

And i believe the uh and maybe it'll be helpful if i pull that up.

Exactly.

But i believe what it's distinguishing between is saying that this person could never return.

And and uh hoping for their restoration rather than prescribing some uh

different level of uh excommunication some people have like different levels of discipline.

Well you're still a member of the church but you can't take communion.

And you know the bible really only has two categories.

Uh you know you're either in the church or you're out of the church.

But for the one that is out of the church that can be pronounced in a more or less insurious way

and so censorious meaning uh disapproval.

Uh yeah if anyone does not obey what we say in this letter take note of that person have nothing to do with him that he may be ashamed.

You know that's describing uh the process of discipline.

But and it says after that do not regard him as an enemy but warn him as a brother.

And so a lot of people take that as like i said saying that there's like some moderate level discipline that

should be used rather than full excommunication.

I think it's talking about full excommunication but it's saying that he basically should not be anathematized.

Uh so he should not be declared to be completely accursed that he would that he would

never be restored.

And where you see this the church making a proclamation of anathema is in uh

galatians one where it says that um but if we are an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel

contrary to the one we preached to you let him be accursed as we have said before.

So now i say again if anyone preaching to a gospel contrary to the one you receive let him be accursed.

So here you have uh the the judaizers who have come and remember this is a situation where

judaizers are a part of the you know people of god they're not.

It's not like this distinct uh you know church setting where they're where they're being fed a false gospel and so

teaching a false gospel uh they are part of the true people of god teaching a false gospel.

And uh the church is being commanded in galatians one where uh the letters being addressed

to the church that they are to declare them accursed.

So that would be giving some guidance on like the type of situation you have in mind in those.

Kind of cases correct.

Right.

Yeah.

So i do think that the church needs to play a role in making these judgments.

Many churches don't they just kind of churches today have very loose uh standards of membership

and uh loose understanding of what membership is and so a lot of these statements don't get made.

But i i do believe that this is not something that is each each christian needs to discern it in

his own life in order to pray correctly at the same time.

Uh this is something that i believe churches as a whole are called to discern and make judgments on corporately.

Fair enough fair enough.

All right.

Well so um so essentially as it relates to this case in general you're connecting all

of you.

You're connecting first john you know the sin that leads to death with uh hebrews 6 and then you're connecting

that with um the impartial sin that jesus mentions in the gospels.

Um what what other passages come to mind.

You said that um there's other connections.

Besides that um that you're thinking of yeah well you know i'm i am thinking i was thinking just about how a

broad understanding of scripture really helps ferret a lot of this stuff out like.

Because later in hebrews just elaborate elaborating on those concepts essentially.

Yeah like hebrews 12 talks about being aware of any root of bitterness that springs up you know a lot of

people take that as okay i gotta watch out for any root of bitterness in my heart.

They don't realize that.

What this is talking about is yeah it's alluding to a passage in deuteronomy that talks of root of

bitterness uh springing up in the camp.

It's talking about an individual who's secretly worshiping other gods.

So that command in hebrews 12 is not for each person individually to watch out for their own heart.

Rather it's telling them as a as a community as a church to watch out for any individual who might be

apostatizing secretly.

Um and anyway there's just a lot of uh related passages that um you know if you if you

can see these references or just click on the cross references in your you know bible app or whatever and discover a lot of these things

it can be really helpful.

Another passage that comes to mind though is matthew 1033 it says.

But whoever denies being before men i will deny before my father who is in heaven.

And so there is a there is a real gravity to a rejection of of christ.

Now we do see in scripture you know the example of peter who denies christ and yet he is

restored.

So i wouldn't i wouldn't say that you know anyone who engages in any kind of uh uh denial would

um would be subject to this.

But rather that uh that there is a way to reject him after having had this

experience where you are held uh completely accountable uh for that for that rejection.

Um there are the wilderness.

Wandering is kind of an example of that too.

Like where jude um um jude mentions that.

Right.

Like um now i want to remind you although you once fully knew that knew it that jesus who saved the people out of the land of

egypt afterwards destroyed those who did not believe.

Um like it seems like that that whole promised land experience and the wandering in the wilderness and the refusal to enter the

promised land is a picture of salvation.

And it's a picture of people as you said they experienced the miracles of god.

Um they they know that they're true right of all the people they've seen them.

But then god was not pleased with them they wouldn't enter into his rest.

Um in that way.

But i don't know if you would go so far with all the i don't know would you would you put all

the wilderness wandering people in there.

No i'm sure there were some who were uh sure there's some who saved i mean at least at least caleb and joshua i don't know at

least maybe moses.

But i mean it is an analogy that's meant to basically make the same kind of point.

Uh whether or not it's applied 100 in that case.

Uh for sure.

But maybe moses got in.

But yeah could you imagine moses not not making it.

Well harrison you you got any more uh questions.

On this uh um no no i i think i'm good but but connelly do

you have anything else that you want.

To do you want to say about this topic in general.

Yeah.

So there's one more interpretation of uh these passages about the unpardonable sin that a lot of people give.

So a lot of people say well this is just rejecting jesus all the way until your death.

I so have you ever heard this before.

Like someone saying basically that the unpardonable sin is just not believing in jesus.

Uh for your entire life.

Oh yeah yeah i i have heard a few well i mean i i don't know i've probably i can probably

count on one hand the amount of people i've ever heard talk about these passages at all

but i i have at least heard that one time.

Yeah i think this is the most common one.

I come across and so i would just say that uh i don't know where that flips into the idea of blasphemy of the holy spirit

jesus was talking to living people who had who had committed this.

They weren't people who had gone all the way to their death uh rejecting these things yet.

So um i'd say that's a reason to reject that another thing.

Another thing i get is you know you see these you see these people on uh social media and you know

people telling you that you need to pray for this apostate or whatever.

Uh should you perhaps do that.

Given that you don't know their personal situation you're far removed from them.

I would argue that we are much closer to them than the early saints were to some of the people that

they refused to pray for.

So one example uh in early church history is uh the emperor julian who's known as

julian the apostate because he had uh departed from the christian faith.

And uh christians of his time uh did not think highly of him.

Obviously.

And so uh gregory of nancy answers who's known for his uh very deep trinitarian theology

in his uh oration 18.

He uh this is uh basically his the funeral sermon that he

preaches at his father's funeral uh he talks about his father and how his father prayed for uh

all people and uh had no malice towards anyone.

So even those who persecuted him he prayed like stephen did uh.

But then later on in that same message he compares his father to hezekiah who

prayed for the destruction of snockerib and he said that his father hated julian

and that he he despised him with a perfect contempt.

Um and so so you have here in the early church an example of a of a god

-fearing man that people greatly respected uh gregory's father who uh prayed

for his enemies even but prayed for the death of emperor julian because he recognized

that this was not one that god was going to save.

There was no there was nothing good to pray for for this man other than his his swift removal from this life.

So that's a that's a stark contrast.

But um does that contradict the command to pray for our leaders.

Yeah uh to pray for our leaders.

Well that's a that's a good question.

I think we should definitely pray for um i guess he was technically praying for him what wasn't he.

He is.

And there's there's a sense in which is merciful for someone to be you know removed from this from this earth swiftly if they

are heaping up more and more judgment for themselves on god from god.

And there's no there's no hope uh and and no one should take me as saying that uh

we should you know that word hate a lot of people don't understand.

You know how that should be how that should be used.

I'm not saying that you know you go out and you find ways of assaulting someone right.

Or that you uh vigilante justice or something.

Yeah vigilante justice.

Or even that if you were in a situation where you know he was dying and needs your help you weren't you know compassionate or whatever.

Right.

Because you you've got you've got jesus saying that you should love your enemies because god loves his enemies.

But then you also have passages uh like in the psalms where

psalm 139 21 through 22 says do i not hate those who hate you.

Oh lord.

And do i not low those who rise up against you i hate them with a complete hatred.

I count my enemies.

So as we are walking the christian life we need to emulate god and hate the way he hates love

the way he loves and what that is is if he has revealed about someone's soul that their soul is given

over then we should pray accordingly.

But as he is still merciful to their body uh we must be as well.

And so i i think there is a way to to both love and hate someone simultaneously.

That uh that scripture calls for as we emulate god's own character who loves his enemies would give us some opportunities to

pray some more imprecatory prayers.

Right.

Exactly yeah.

And well most christians just pretend those aren't there and you all have an episode on that not too long ago that people can go

look at.

But uh yeah exactly we should give us an opportunity i know you've been

itching to pray.

Here's a case you know here's a good good opportunity to get it all out of your system.

Yeah here's a here's a uh example here's an example for you to think through.

What.

What do we pray for joe biden.

Yeah well i don't believe joe biden is an apostate.

You know he's okay that false church example that you gave.

Right.

And he's not even living in line with that false church.

So um you know while while what i said about hardening of heart as someone continues in sin for very long

times while all that is sure is perfectly applicable you know there's still hope for a soul god could be merciful to

joe biden.

We should as he is a ruler pray for.

His salvation.

Pray for his salvation.

Don't pray for his death.

No yeah.

Pray for good pray for sound.

For sound judgment that kind of stuff.

Right.

Right.

Yeah.

Exactly.

Okay.

And as uh yeah we're talking about imprecatory prayers.

Yeah typically people say well imprecatory prayers.

You just pray those.

Generally you don't pray those for specific people.

But you know here in these circumstances i think it is right for us to to pray imprecatory prayer specifically for

apostates.

Um that god would be just in his judgments and he has declared what his judgment is in this matter.

Okay.

All.

Right.

Well.

I think that's a good place for us to start wrapping up the episode on.

You know one one thing i was thinking about connelly as we were talking through all this is um

whenever i talk to people about who ask me about calvinism for example most of the time

it's people who who are opposed to the doctrine of calvinism

and one of the things i tell them is you know hey look this doctrine is at

at least you have to admit that as you read the bible the bible at least

leaves the door open for calvin the doctrine of calvinism to be true.

Okay so if it at least is you know obviously i think it just teaches this

doctrine to us.

But you know i'm trying to appeal i'm trying to appeal to them.

Uh if the bible at least uh leaves the door open for calvinism to be

true uh then you have to ask yourself if it is true

am i okay with that like or or am i at a place where i'd say

even if it is true i'm not okay with it.

You know.

And that and that's sort of a good that's sort of a good like test of your own heart to see am i actually opposing

this because i'm just truly convinced the bible doesn't teach it or am i actually opposed to it because i just don't like it.

And i think this is probably a similar a similar idea where at at least you have to

admit that at least the bible leaves the door open you know for this to those verses have to

mean something you know so so they're at least leaving the door open for you know what you're arguing

for.

And people need to ask themselves hey if it is true am i okay with that or am i

not okay with the god you know who who is actively condemning some people and

not giving them you know a chance at repentance at that point right.

Is that a fair.

Is that a fair you know thing to say.

Or or what are your thoughts on that.

Absolutely yeah.

So many people say well if calvinism is true i wouldn't want to worship a god like that.

Uh right.

You know you do have to you do have to check your own heart and make sure you're you know

uh yeah that your beliefs are being informed by scripture rather than your own sensibilities and sense of what

good and love and right and.

Wrong.

Right.

Okay.

Well you know i think that's something for you know all of our listeners to think through.

Who who.

Maybe have you know whether you're opposed to this idea or maybe you've just never thought about it before.

I think that is a good check to think through.

Is you know.

Hey if this is true am i okay with that.

Or am i in the you know am i in that position that says no if i'm not going to worship a god who does that.

And if that's the case then i think you're in a very dangerous place in general and you really need to repent of a

lot of things there.

But you know our hope with having these conversations is that you think through um you know we

you think through uh what we're talking about.

And you go and you study these scriptures for yourself and you you ask yourself you know what do these actually mean.

And and and don't go to all the people who like like tim says this a lot don't go to all the people who

are going to tell you everything that this verse doesn't mean.

Right.

Go to go and find the people who are going to explain to you what these verses actually mean.

And and that's that's part of the hope.

You know that's part of the goal with what we're doing here is try to explain these things.

So um you know our hope is that this is helpful for you and that this is glorifying to god and that this isn't

this encourages you to pursue uh faithfulness to the things that god um

you know has commanded us to do so as we close out conley you know do you have anything um

you know do you want to um point us back to any work that you're doing right now or any helpful resources on this topic.

Yeah.

So i would highly recommend.

For anyone who's uh interested in this subject uh john owens book apostasy from the gospel

specifically the first chapter.

If you're just trying to understand apostasy the first chapter is really excellent.

You can uh stop reading after that if you're if you're just looking for something short uh.

However the rest of the book is about that second kind of apostasy.

I said that kind of apostasy where you uh just generally um fall away from the practice of the

faith not necessarily reject the tenets of the faith.

And the rest of the book is an incredibly good uh devotional thing.

To uh ask yourself whether you're being sufficiently watchful over your own soul so that you might not fall

into that second form of apostasy.

But yeah john owen apostasy from the.

Gospel.

Uh very good work.

Okay all right.

Well thanks again calmly for coming on.

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