WWUTT 1795 Q&A Assurance of Salvation, the Lordship Salvation Controversy, and Visions of Heaven

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How often do you doubt the assurance of your salvation? What is lordship salvation and is it biblical?

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And if we've got a friend who thinks they're making trips to heaven, how do we respond to that? The answer is when we understand the text.

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This is When We Understand The Text, a daily Bible study in the Word of Christ. So that we, who believe in His name, may know that we have eternal life.

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Tell your friends about our ministry at www .wutt .com. He once again is

00:39

Pastor Gabe. Thank you, Becky. You're welcome. Somebody on our Facebook page had said,

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I forgot to copy down this comment, so I can't remember who said it, but they said we're the

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Gabe and Babe show. Because sometimes

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I'll come out of that and go, thanks, babe. That's true. That's true. That reminded me of that right there, but I forgot to copy down who it was that made that comment.

01:08

That was clever. Anyway. So in that introduction of yours, you were quoting from 1

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John 5, 13. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the

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Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life. And oftentimes if you come to a pastor and you say to him,

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I'm struggling with assurance of my salvation. If he's a good expositing pastor, knows his

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Bible well, he'll tell you to read 1 John. Yes. Read that over and over again. So I put this question as a poll out on Twitter earlier this week.

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The question was, Christian, how often do you struggle with assurance of your salvation?

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All the time, occasionally, never, or some other answer. What would you say?

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I would say never. Never. You never struggle with assurance of your salvation? I used to.

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Sure. But no, not anymore. Good. I mean, I struggle with a lot of other things, but that's not one of them.

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Isn't it nice to know you're saved? Yes. No matter the other things you're struggling with. Right.

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You're still safe in the arms of God. Right. So you have come to a good, confident assurance of Roman's aid.

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There is neither life nor death nor anything else under heaven that can separate us from the love of God.

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In Christ Jesus, our Lord. But at the same time, I could say that today and something happened tomorrow, and I'm right back where I started.

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But today, as of today, yes, I can say. You're absolutely confident in that.

02:47

Yeah. That's great. So here's how the odds came out or the percentages came out on the poll.

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Sure. I think it was 300, 400 something people had voted or something like that. Anyway, so 10 % said all the time.

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10 % say they struggle with assurance of their salvation all the time. That's a lot. 10%. 10 % of how many?

03:08

Out of what? 400 or something like that. Okay. I can't remember exactly the number of people that voted. That's still a lot. Okay. 52 % said occasionally.

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Okay. That's a lot more than. That's the biggest number. Yeah. 52 % is the biggest number. 32 % said never.

03:24

Wow. Good. 6 % said other. Kind of curious about that.

03:30

Yeah. I don't know. I just stuck an other in there with the polling options. Maybe they're just looking. Yeah. I can't really say all the time.

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I wouldn't say it's really occasionally. It's definitely not never, so other. What do you mean? Isn't that occasionally?

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Depending on the day. Yeah. Probably occasionally. Other. Usually you say other and then leave a comment or something like that.

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Right. So here were some of the comments that we got underneath that poll. Jeremiah from Colorado said, When the thought that a sinner like me probably is not saved,

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I remember that my salvation is based on the work of Christ, not of myself, and I reflect on God's work in my life, that he has only promised to those who are saved.

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Amen. D from South Carolina, God saved me and said so. For me to doubt that would be doubting him.

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I doubt my ability, but in that case I make certain I'm not grieving the Holy Spirit.

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This one from Katie in Pennsylvania. I know I am not worthy, but Christ died for the unworthy.

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I have to remind myself of that a lot. Yeah. This one's also from Katie, but in Colorado. I used to,

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I used to a lot. So she's saying I used to doubt all the time assurance of my salvation. Yeah, I get that. For years

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I didn't understand that God's saving work had or has nothing to do with me, but him alone.

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If it did have anything to do with me, I would struggle. So humbling and assuring that it's him alone.

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And this is Rusty from Ohio. I struggle with this occasionally because I see myself more sinful now.

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The degree and magnitude of my sin is less, but it weighs more heavily on me now than it ever did.

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I often have to remind myself that it's upon Christ's merits and sacrifice that I'm accepted.

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Definitely. And lastly, Tracy from somewhere, didn't have anywhere marked where she was from.

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I truly never question it. Salvation, which is by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone, was not mine to earn nor mine to lose.

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That is justification. Sanctification, on the other hand, is ongoing, but salvation is never in jeopardy because of it.

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That's where I stand right now. Great. Yeah. Awesome. Good word, Tracy. Yes. Good word, Becky. Yes. Thank you for voting in our poll.

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Now, that was on Twitter. Somebody told me you can do polls on Facebook, but I've not been able to find it.

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You know how to do that? I think so. You'll have to show me. I haven't done one yet. Maybe because you have greater administrative powers on the

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Facebook page than I have. That I don't use. That you don't even use. Now, we figured out

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Becky can do things I can't do. I'm like, wait a minute. Yeah. That's not fair. It's funny. So, maybe you can enact the poll.

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They just like me better. That's right. You haven't been on there longer. And this is true.

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I don't make my personal account open to anybody. I have no reason to be on Facebook for any reason other than just to have the what

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Facebook page on there. Yeah. So, look us up on Facebook. It's facebook .com slash when we understand the text.

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I'll put out another poll question on our Twitter what on Monday. So, being the

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Friday edition of the broadcast, we're taking questions from the listeners. And you can send those questions to when we understand the text at gmail .com.

06:51

This one is from Eric. Pastor Gabe, is it possible to get all of your Ecclesiastes podcasts into one spot so that I can listen to them all together please?

07:01

That'd be awesome. I don't know. I have no idea how to do that. Can't you search? Yeah. You can definitely type in like if you typed in what

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Ecclesiastes. Yeah. In the search result. You can just do that in Google. Mm -hmm. And then what you would get would be every episode that I did in Ecclesiastes.

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In theory. No, it does. It'll probably throw in a couple like, here, this is suggested or whatever.

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Yeah, something like that. Right. But. But yeah, or if you go to Podbean even since that's the main site that I'm hosted from.

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Yeah. If you go to, I don't know if there's a way to do it through Apple, Apple's pod player.

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I don't use it, so I don't know. Is that what it's called, a pod player? I don't know. Anyway. Podcast app.

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Yeah, what I want to try to figure out how to do is if there's a way to categorize it. Now there was a time, Podbean changed all of this.

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Hopefully they've changed it back, but there was a time where you could label each episode. Mm -hmm. So I could label this episode's in Ecclesiastes, this episode's in Romans, you know, whatever else.

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But then what ended up happening was Podbean changed the way that you label and they limited you to like 15 labels.

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Well, I've taught through like 30 books of the Bible. Yeah. So I need more labels.

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So I had to start compiling them into bigger categories. So like any of Paul's epistles or just in Paul's letters or something like that, any of the wisdom books, which that would,

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I mean, that's a huge chunk. Yeah. That's Psalms, Proverbs, Job, Ecclesiastes. Yeah.

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Song of Solomon, all of those, or Song of Songs, sorry. There you go. Got it right. All of those would be in the wisdom book.

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So I had to put one category together for all those books. I need to go back and see if Podbean changed it back to the old way.

08:47

Yeah. I don't know. I don't know anything about that. Because I had run out of labels. But if I can figure that out,

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Eric, I'll let you know and try to email you the link. This next one comes from Jackson. This is the question that I said we were going to answer last week.

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Oh, yeah. But we were running out of time. So coming back to this one, Pastor Gabe, I want to first thank you for the

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What podcast. Out of all the various podcasts that I've listened to over the years, yours is one of the best.

09:12

Oh, that's sweet. That's awesome, Jackson. Thank you. I know that I can always trust you to thoroughly and properly exegete the text to help us better understand the author's original intent.

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I'll tell you this, this is something that none of you know. You don't even know that I do this. There are times when

09:31

I'm recording an episode, I've prepped on it or I've taught on the book before. It's one of the two. Either I've had to do some prep before recording or I've taught it many, many times.

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So there's much less prep that I have to do other than reading the passage through and kind of formulating in my head, okay, here's where I'm going to go today.

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That sort of a thing. So something you probably don't know that I do is if I'm ever exegeting a passage and I come across something as I'm going through my exposition that I discover

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I have a harder time explaining than I thought. Like I read it in advance, but as I'm going through the teaching,

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I'm going, okay, that might be a little harder to put into words than I thought it would be. I stop,

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I stop the recording. I'll probably spend another 20 to 30 minutes figuring that out. And then

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I resume the recording and just pick up right where I left off. And y 'all are none the wiser. You don't even know

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I've done that because I just splice it all together and it just sounds like I'm really smart.

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It's the editing job. It's the editing. That's what it is. But that's to put together for you something that is the most biblically accurate that I can give to you.

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So now when Becky and I sit down and we do this Q &A, this is the fastest recording that I do all week.

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Right. I help move it along. She does. That and also, you know, you have a short timeframe with me before I fade.

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That's the truth too. It's kind of like, I have to get this in one take. You do. Because you're not going to last.

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Otherwise you're doing it again all by yourself. That's right. Which we've had to do before.

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We have. That's why I'm laughing. So Jackson continues.

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He says, anyways, just as much as it's like he throws in the anyways, like he's had to deal with us laughing about this.

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Anyways, guys, just as much as I've grown to appreciate you over the years,

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I've also grown to appreciate John MacArthur. And I have to agree with Steve Lawson that he is the greatest preacher of our times, though that's not to downplay the importance of all the other solid preachers out there.

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I'm extremely thankful for John MacArthur. I think I just said to somebody this past week, I believe he's the greatest preacher since Martin Lloyd Jones.

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So it's kind of like every era kind of has their great. And that's not to say that nobody else out there is great.

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I love Pastor Tom. Yeah. You know, there are other pastors I enjoy listening to. My personal favorite is still

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Votie Bauckham. But I just think personally, the kind of an impact that John MacArthur has had on so many people over the last 50 years, there's not been another preacher like him in, you know, these two centuries combined here, the 20th and 21st centuries.

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He's been incredible and irreplaceable. And the the kind of impact that he's made on expository preaching,

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I think, has been more than any other preacher has had an influence on in the last, you know, 50 plus years.

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Yeah. But yeah, I would agree with you there with with MacArthur. And I've expressed before I have personal disagreements with MacArthur.

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He's dispensationalist and I'm not. Yeah. But still, I think he's one of the greatest preachers.

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Yeah. So anyway, Jackson going on to say, can I just add my favorite, Mike Riccardi?

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Yeah, you like Mike Riccardi. That's right. I do. Becky. I can just sit there and listen and understand everything.

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Yeah. He's great. Just amazing. You know, he's gonna be here in Lindale in February. Yep. Yes. I'm there.

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We have an expository workshop that we're doing here at First Baptist Church in Lindale February 2nd and 3rd.

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And I think Tom's having him preach that coming Sunday, too. So, yeah.

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But you got to go to G3's website. Go to G3MIN .com to register for the expository workshop.

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Yes. If you're a pastor, if you are an aspiring pastor, if you're a Sunday school teacher, you just want to learn how to exposit the text better.

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You want to learn how to find structure, the theme and the aim, how you take all of that and you put it into you synthesize it into the lesson that you're going to teach.

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Yeah. How do you do all of that? That's what we teach in the expository workshop. So, we'd love to have you for that. And it's for men only still?

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Men only still. Okay. Yep. There is that desire to put one together for women to do, but right now it's still the men only.

13:56

Gotcha. Yep. Just making sure. Where did I leave off, Jackson? I'm sorry about that. Let's see. With that said,

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I've been hearing more and more solid men publicly denouncing the doctrine of lordship salvation that MacArthur is famous for.

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They claim that it goes against the doctrines of grace as it is works based and thus it is heretical.

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What exactly is lordship salvation? I don't quite understand it. And is it biblical?

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Solus Christus Jackson. Well, lordship salvation comes from the book that John MacArthur wrote.

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Man, I don't remember when this was. Was this back in the 90s? But the gospel according to Jesus. And let's see.

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I want to say that's late 80s. 1988, 89, somewhere in there. Anyway, so the big controversy that came out of that book was what becomes known as the lordship salvation controversy.

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Basically, what MacArthur put forward in that book is that submitting to Christ as Lord goes hand in hand with trusting in Christ as Savior.

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If you are a Christian, then you're going to show it. You're going to demonstrate it in your life. You know, hence

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Jesus saying in the Sermon on the Mount, you'll know them by their fruit. A good tree produces good fruit.

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A bad tree produces bad fruit. And the tree that produces bad fruit, God's going to cut down and throw into the fire.

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So just because you walked an aisle, you prayed a prayer, you got baptized at VBS when you were a kid, that does not make you a

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Christian. The genuineness of that conversion is going to be demonstrated in that you are still professing that years later.

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You are still turning from sin to Jesus Christ. Yeah, I was going to say not just saying it, though, but actually able to make those decisions.

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Like whenever I was not saved, I was not able to turn from my sin. I was not able to stop no matter how much

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I wanted to stop. I just couldn't. I couldn't do it on my own. And then once I've saved, it's a lot.

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It's still work to turn from sin, but it's still something you have to do.

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But you can do it now. Right. You're convicted. I can do it. Exactly. You're convicted and you listen to that conviction.

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Yes. And you turn from your sin. You're growing in holiness. You're growing in knowledge of God. You're growing in love and affection for the people of God and the body of Christ.

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And things make sense in the Bible, not just confusion. Now, I remember this big controversy back in the 80s and 90s over all of this because my dad was involved in fighting against it.

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He was in Christian radio back in the time, back at that time. So there were churches that we would go into and he would preach at.

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And I would hear about the controversy there. Well, what do you think about a carnal Christian?

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That was the term that would get thrown around back then. There was even a song that was on the radio, on Christian radio, that would be,

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I don't want to be a carnal Christian. Oh, yeah. I remember that. You remember that song? Yeah. So all of that kind of stemmed from that whole lordship salvation controversy.

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So some believed in the carnal Christian. They profess that they're believers. And they may live like they're sinners.

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But that doesn't mean that they're lost. They really are Christians. They really are going to go to heaven, even though you don't actually see any evidence in their life.

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They're just not growing. Of the conversion. Yeah. Yeah. Dude. Which, as we've been reading from 1

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John here. I was going to say, the Bible talks about that all over. Right. About how you need to be growing.

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Exactly. And getting to the meat of the Bible. 1 John chapter 1 says, if we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

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Mm -hmm. Chapter 2, beginning in verse 1, my little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin.

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And if anyone sins, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, the righteous. And he himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

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And by this we know that we have come to know him. By this we know if we keep his commandments.

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Mm -hmm. The one who says, I have come to know him, and does not keep his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

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But whoever keeps his word truly in him, the love of God has been perfected. By this we know that we are in him.

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The one who says he abides in him ought himself to walk in the same manner as he walked.

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So you're going to demonstrate in your life that you are a changed believer. Right. You have put off the old and put on the new.

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Mm -hmm. You have gone from the kingdom of darkness and been transferred to the kingdom of light. Right. You demonstrate with your life that you wear his righteousness, that you have the righteousness of Christ, and so you walk as Jesus walked.

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Mm -hmm. The main argument against lordship salvation is that it's always looking inside yourself.

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It's always introspective to see if you're doing what is necessary to affirm your faith, where you should be fixing your eyes is on Christ.

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But I disagree with that. I really don't think that there's anything about the doctrine of lordship salvation that makes it exclusively introspective and not fixing your eyes on Jesus.

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Yet you need some of that introspective just to make sure that you are following the right path and you're continuing to work in the right way of God honoring.

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I mean, if you don't have the introspective moments, you're just going to ignore your sins.

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Precisely. I mean, what we're reading here in 1 John 2. I'm doing good. I'm doing good. No, you're not.

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No, you're not. You're awful. Everybody's awful. What we're reading here in 1 John 2 is a self -examination.

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Yeah. I mean, for you to say, I have come to know him. Well, examine yourself. Do you keep his commandments? Because if you say that you know him and you're not keeping his commandments, then you're a liar.

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Right. And his truth is not really in you. Jesus says to his disciples, John 14, 15, you will show me that you love me when you obey my commandments.

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Are you doing that? Right. I mean, you read a passage like that and it causes you to go, wow, I guess keeping the commands of God was more important than I thought.

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I thought I could just fall back on Roman six. I'm no longer under the law, but under grace. So I'm good.

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I'm fine. Right. But what do the scriptures say? Second Corinthians 13, verse five, test yourselves to see if you are in the faith.

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Examine yourselves. Right. Or do you not recognize about yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you, unless indeed you fail the test?

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Nothing about the doctrine of lordship salvation, anything that I've read on it, whether it's that book from John MacArthur read it years ago or anything else

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I've read from somebody that I hear someone say, oh, well, that guy's lordship salvation or something like that.

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I've never seen anything from that label that leads me to believe something unbiblical is going on.

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Maybe there's, I don't know. Is there a splitting hairs in there somewhere? Is there a picking mitts? I don't know.

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I don't know. Or just quarrel over words. Yeah. Just quarreling about words. Right. Because that term itself, lordship salvation is not in the

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Bible. What does the Bible say? Right. And that's what I've been pointing you to. Right. What does scripture say?

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Personally, I don't use the term lordship salvation. I don't think I've ever stood in the pulpit and said, hey, today we're going to, in fact,

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I know that I haven't. I was going to say, I don't remember, I don't recall you saying that ever. Yeah. And nobody's heard, nobody other than myself has heard more of my sermons than Becky has.

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And I've never stood in the pulpit and said, today we're going to talk about lordship salvation. I mean, it's just not, you know, it's a doctrine that labels some sort of collection of theological ideas,

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I suppose. The name that sort of labels that. But I don't stand in the pulpit and teach lordship salvation.

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At the same time, I've never seen anybody who's teaching lordship salvation say something that's contrary to what scripture says.

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So, yeah, I think, like you said, I think it's kind of a quarrel over words. Yeah. I mean, a person who believes lordship salvation is not going to cut

22:03

Hebrews 12 out of their Bible. Right. Fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and the perfecter of our faith.

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Right. It's like saying, eat apples. They're good for you. Well, does that mean

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I can't eat vegetables? Yeah, right. Vegetables are good for you. So you're saying vegetables are bad. Yeah. All we need to do is eat apples.

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They only think we need to eat apples, you know? So, I mean, I'm not saying that's everybody's approach, but it could be.

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Right. But anyway, so there's your, there's your answer, Jackson. Encourage you to read the gospel according to Jesus if you haven't read it yet.

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That's a good book. Usually pretty cheap. And, you know, if you call Grace to you and ask them nicely. They might send it to you.

22:44

They might just send it to you for free. Yeah. Yeah, you never know. All right, this one is from Hannah, Richmond, Virginia.

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She says, Dear Pastor Gabe, thank you for your podcast and your teaching of the word as well as your knowledge of the word.

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My husband introduced me to your podcast and it has been part of strengthening our marriage as well as our individual walks.

23:03

Oh, good. Thank you so much, Hannah. I have a sister who listens to the Power Hour, a group of people who prophesy.

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That's what that sounds like. Yeah. I would assume that that's probably what that's about. I have many conflicting issues with this and the things that she shares with me.

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One person in particular has shared that God will come take her into heaven and show her around at any given time.

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She made statements that he showed her Whitney Houston wearing one of his robes walking around.

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Okay. Also stated that there is a soccer field where Jesus will come and play a soccer game with former soccer players who have passed.

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Other statements were made as well. Well, you know, the famous song says there's a big, big yard where we will play football.

23:53

Okay. I thought it was pigskin, but apparently football as in soccer. No, that's where it's known everywhere else.

23:59

That's right. How it's known everywhere else. Soccer is more popular in the world than the

24:04

NFL. True. Makes sense. True. Yeah. This all sounds nice, she says, but I struggle believing that God is taking someone to show them around heaven.

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I feel conflicted when I hear my sister talking about these things, and it's more of a warning that I feel inside, but I don't know how to express that to my sister who gets excited when she tells me the things that she hears.

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I want to be excited, but I'm missing a lot of biblical backing with these stories. Am I missing something with all of this?

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Am I doubting or am I being wise about having caution? I hope that this made sense.

24:39

Yeah. In fact, as soon as you start in on saying that they believe that God will take you up to heaven anytime and show you around.

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Yeah. People like Jesse Duplantis have talked about that exact thing. In fact, his story of going to heaven is really wacko.

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It's like he goes up to heaven in a cable car or something like that, and even like he goes and talks to Jesus, and Jesus is sad, and so he has to cheer

25:04

Jesus up. Oh, wow. Oh, yeah. It's nutso. Jesse Duplantis is a through and through heretic.

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So anyway, what were you going to say? I was going to ask, now to clarify, is her sister experiencing these or just telling her what she's heard?

25:20

Hang on. Let me look back over that and see. Yeah, she's made statements that he showed her

25:29

Whitney Houston wearing one of his robes and walking around. So, yeah, she's claiming that she's seen this.

25:35

Okay. So her sister is experiencing this. Right. Okay. And sharing that.

25:40

Okay. Yeah. In fact, one of the warnings that I have given as a pastor is if anybody ever tells you, that they've been to heaven and had a personal audience with God, get out of that church.

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They are lying to you. Now, maybe they had some sort of delusion or a dream. Maybe they are telling the truth as far as their experience goes, but they're not telling you according to Scripture, because the

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Bible says we will not experience these things. It's appointed to a man to die once, and after that comes judgment. We do not see

26:11

Christ. Jesus gave us these warnings in Matthew 24. If anybody says to you, look, here is the

26:17

Christ, or here he is in the inner rooms, don't go to them. Right. For as lightning is seen as the east as far as the west, so will be the coming of the

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Son of Man. Jesus is not showing himself privately to us before his second coming.

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Yeah. The apostle Paul states in 1 Corinthians 15, 8, he goes through a succession of people that Jesus appeared to after his resurrection.

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And in verse 8, he says, last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.

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Paul was the last one who would see the risen Lord. No one after Paul has seen the risen

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Christ. That was one of the requirements of an apostle, that they would see the risen Christ and they would be personally appointed to apostleship by Christ himself.

27:03

Right. So, this is an apostolic claim that your sister is making. But isn't she dreaming?

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Like, isn't it in a dream? Would that qualify as the same thing? Hang on. You're making me go back to the letter again here.

27:17

I'm verifying. So, God will take her into heaven and show her around at any time. She made statements that, yeah, it's nothing about a dream.

27:24

Okay, not a dream. But, you know, people like Mike Bickle, who have talked about this, Mike Bickle, who started the International House of Prayer.

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He claims to have gone to heaven and had a personal audience with God. Okay. And he describes it as, like, being taken up out of his body or being, like, lifted up out of his bed.

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So, there's a physical thing that happens. Okay. Where he's transferred into this place and gets shown around and gets to see things.

27:47

Okay. This is a very charismatic, neo -Pentecostal thing that some of these preachers will do, claiming that they, you know, it's a statement of authority.

27:58

Like, how much closer are you to God than I am? Yeah. Because I've actually had a personal audience with God.

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Right. That's kind of how I feel like it's going. Like, going to the, if you don't speak in tongues, you're not saved kind of mentality.

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If you don't have this experience, then you're not saved kind of thing. I don't know how serious she is about it, but that would be a big concern.

28:21

So, I mean, how do you suggest that she talks to her sister? I mean, it's different when it's a friend or an acquaintance or somebody that you don't even know.

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But when it's your sister, that makes things a little more complicated, maybe a little more delicate.

28:39

I think it makes it a little easier, personally. You think so? Yeah. Of course, I'm coming at this as a brother who is always fighting and arguing with my brothers.

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This is very true. So, I would be, I mean, if this was my brothers, I'm going, great, something else we get to argue about.

28:53

Yeah. So, yeah. That is very true. Entering that prepared for debate. But really, you want to take the scriptures.

29:00

That's what you want to do. Definitely. So, Proverbs 30, let me begin in verse 1.

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The words of Agur, the son of Jacob, the oracle. The man declares to Ithiel, to Ithiel and Ukal.

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Surely I am more senseless than any man, and I do not have the understanding of mankind. Neither have

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I learned wisdom, nor do I know the knowledge of the Holy One. Who has ascended into heaven and descended?

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Who has gathered the wind in his fists? Who has wrapped the waters in his garment?

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Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name and what is his son's name?

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Surely you know. That question in Proverbs 30, verse 4 is answered in John 3, 13.

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First, let me read the question again. Who has ascended into heaven and descended? Jesus said,

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John 3, 13. No one has ascended into heaven, but he who descended from heaven, the

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Son of Man. Only Jesus Christ has seen heaven and has come down to tell us what it is like.

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The Apostle Paul saw something in 2 Corinthians chapter 12. He says,

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I know a man who was taken up into the third heaven. Whether in the body or out of it, I do not know. Yeah, that's what I was going to.

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You were going to go to that one too? Yeah, no, go ahead. He was speaking of that in the third person because he's speaking humbly.

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He's not taking bragging rights. He could easily squash the arguments these super apostles are making winning over the

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Corinthians there in Corinth. That's what Paul is arguing for. He's trying to win their hearts back to the sound teachers and the sound gospel.

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These guys are false teachers. They're agents of Satan. He could easily squash these guys in the mud.

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Like, hey, they say they've got visions. I've got better visions than they've had. But he speaks of himself in the third person rather than boasting in himself when he gets to these exceedingly high great revelations here.

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So he says, I know such a man caught up into the third heaven where he heard inexpressible words which a man is not permitted to speak.

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On behalf of such a man I will boast, but on my own behalf I will not boast except in weakness.

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For if I do wish to boast, I will not be foolish. If I wish to boast, I won't be foolish in my boasting, he says.

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I will be speaking the truth, but I refrain from this so that no one will consider me beyond what he sees in me or hears from me.

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Paul has been taken up into heaven and seen things that we have not been privy to see because he's an apostle.

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So God showed him something. And then he came back and he wrote a bestselling book about the trip that he made to heaven.

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No, he did not do that. Paul didn't talk about what he saw.

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Right. So he said, I could boast about it. I could. If I want to squash these guys,

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I could tell you what it is that I saw up there. Now, how is that different than Jesus going and coming from heaven, going to and coming from heaven?

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How is that different from? Paul was not permitted to speak it. He saw it, but he wasn't permitted to talk about it.

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Got it. Now, he says there, I don't know if I was in the body or out of it, like whatever happened.

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He doesn't even know the state of himself. Now, here's my theory. I'm just kind of this like a sideline here.

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But I said this when we were teaching through Second Corinthians earlier this year. I believe what

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Paul saw was what John saw, but it was not for Paul to write it.

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He wasn't going to be the guy that was going to write Revelation. Right. John was going to be the guy that wrote Revelation.

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Right. So, I believe that Paul saw the same thing, and there were probably other apostles that did as well. But John was the one that was given the

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Revelation to write down and have it delivered to the churches. Gotcha. So, he got to see and be the author of that, whereas Paul was not permitted to do that.

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But again, this goes back to Paul is the last one to see the risen Lord. Right. He's the last one to be given these things.

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And every occasion that you have in the Bible of a prophet or an apostle seeing

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God and his glory in heaven, they either can't talk about it or they're terrified and they hit their faces.

33:20

Right. But how do you hear these charismatics talking about the trip and the experience that they had when they went to heaven?

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Like God was in their backyard. I saw Whitney Houston in a robe. Yeah. That's not what's in the

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Bible. That's not what the Bible describes. Right. I just – just a lot of patience and let her know – let your sister know that you love her and that you care for her soul.

33:48

Yes, it is probably – And that it's very scary of what she's saying. As excited as you can hear me get, it's probably better that you're talking to your sister and not me.

33:57

Yes. Yeah, you come a little harsh.

34:02

I come on a little strong. A little strong. Yeah. Consider, Hannah, consider – I mean, seriously speaking, though, you give the truth, but it's just in one big punch.

34:14

So whether you survive it or not, that's a whole other subject. I can't just give you one scripture.

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I've got like 20 of them. Right. But I would recommend – I would recommend to you, Hannah, that before you have this conversation with your sister, read

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Luke 16. Okay. So let's go ahead and look at this. Luke 16, beginning of verse 19. Now, there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.

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But a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate covered with sores and desiring to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man's table.

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Besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. Now, it happened that the poor man died, and he was carried away by angels to Abraham's bosom.

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And the rich man also died, and he was buried. And in Hades, he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw

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Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried out and said,

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Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.

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But Abraham said, Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise

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Lazarus bad things. But now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.

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And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you are not able, and none may cross from there to us.

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And he said, Then I am asking you, Father, that you send him to my father's house, for I have five brothers, in order that he may warn them, so that they may not also come into this place of torment.

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But Abraham said, They have Moses and the prophets, let them hear them.

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But the rich man said, No, Father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.

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And this is Jesus telling this story, by the way. Who would know that this exchange had even taken place?

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Right. Only Jesus Christ. Only Jesus. And Jesus, telling this story, says that Abraham responded to the rich man,

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If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded, even if someone rises from the dead.

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So ask your sister, why does she think that she needs these heavenly visions? Does it enhance her faith somehow?

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She's saying by these visions that she claims she has, that scripture is not sufficient. It was not powerful enough for me.

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God's word was not enough for me. I needed these visions and these other esoteric experiences in order to feel fulfilled in my faith.

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And she's saying God is not enough. And that's a serious place to be. She's going to have to take that up with God.

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But also, this is for your comfort in knowing that if she doesn't accept, it's not your fault.

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It's something that's between her and the Lord. Right. And it's only the Lord that saves.

37:21

Absolutely. So. Let me pray for you, Hannah. I got one more question to get to here. But let's go ahead and pray for Hannah. And then we'll move on.

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Heavenly Father, I thank you for Hannah listening to the program and trusting us with the question that she asked.

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I pray that you would give Hannah wisdom. That she would know the scriptures and be able to show her sister what the

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Bible says. So that her sister will not be relying on these feelings and experiences to justify her faith.

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Or feel fulfilled in her faith. Those things don't give us any genuineness in our faith.

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They're useless. For even the word of Christ says that if they won't listen to Moses and the prophets, they're not even going to be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.

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Jesus Christ himself. And it sounds like Hannah's sister is not even convinced by Christ to have to have all these other experiences.

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Or feel like she's seeing these visions. Help us to be content with what we have in your word.

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We understand the words that Jesus said to the Apostle Paul. My grace is sufficient for you.

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For my power is made perfect in weakness. Right there in 2 Corinthians 12.

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So Paul says, I'm going to boast all the more in my weaknesses. For where I am weak, then he is strong.

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And may that be Hannah's heart. And may she be able to guide her sister's heart in that as well.

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We thank you for your word. We thank you for the conviction of your spirit. And may we all desire to live according to these things.

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Not by our ways, but by God's way. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. Amen. All right, last question.

38:55

This one comes from Ferdy. This is not a question, in fact.

39:02

This was in response to something that I said a couple of weeks ago.

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I don't think it was last week. But two weeks ago where I said that if I'm looking at my phone late at night, it's harder for me to go to sleep.

39:14

Oh, yeah. But if I'm reading my Kindle, then it's like I want to go to sleep within 10 minutes. I can't even finish my chapter.

39:20

So Ferdy contacted and said, good day, Pastor Hughes. We came across the What YouTube videos a couple of years ago and recently started listening to the podcast.

39:29

Awesome. Thank you very much for the faithful teaching, clear presentation, and expounding of God's word.

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We benefit from it greatly as we navigate these times of false teaching and apostasy.

39:40

Just an input to your social media causing you to lose sleep. The mobile phones here in South Africa, we call them cell phones.

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Yeah, smartphones. I think we used to call them cell phones. Yeah. It's smartphones now.

39:54

Yeah. That's what anybody calls them. Smartphone or dumb phone. Yes. If you have a cell phone, it's a dumb phone.

40:01

But Ferdy goes on. He says that these phones emit large amounts of blue light, which keeps the body awake, fooling it into thinking that there's daylight around.

40:10

It prevents the production of a hormone called melatonin that helps you relax as you get tired and ready for sleep.

40:17

If you install a blue light filter app on your phone, you'll see just how much blue light dominates the display.

40:24

The electronic ink on a Kindle emits grayscale colors, mostly black text against a yellow or light color background.

40:33

Here, there's virtually no blue light and you experience the normal release of melatonin, which will make you relax in preparation for a good night's rest.

40:41

Just like a regular book would. No wonder the social media devices are compared to drugs, which keep people engaged way beyond bedtime.

40:49

And combined with sensational topical information, people just drown in it. This is especially harmful to children in the formative years, including teenagers and young adults.

41:00

Yes, we have old smartphones, but I don't let the kids just take them and play with them.

41:06

Yeah. It's a very occasional thing and it's kind of a treat. Yeah. So anyway,

41:12

Ferdie says all the best to you and your family in Texas, USA. And once again, thank you for the excellent work and spreading the gospel truth.

41:20

Kind regards. Well, thank you. An email from South Africa. Yeah, it's pretty cool. Thank you so much, guys.

41:26

But yeah, so social media, it really is like a drug. It's so addicting to a lot of people that they find it to be like if something bad happens on there, it's their world that falls apart.

41:41

Well, what are you talking about? Hang on, I'm checking my messages. Stop. And then a lot of people use it like a public diary.

41:53

That's how I described it whenever it first came out back when I was younger. Well, that is kind of the way you use it, isn't it?

41:59

Because you keep like pictures of the kids and stuff like that. I keep it more of like a scrapbook. Not like a diary.

42:06

Like a diary is your inmost like I'm angry at this person or I feel like I should just go kill myself or something.

42:14

You know, it's like very exaggerated in the moment. You don't really feel that way.

42:20

But in the moment, it's real. So you're going to blog, you know, not blog it, but post it.

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And then everybody's like fawning over, you know, well, don't feel that way. It's okay. Calm down, you know, so on and so forth.

42:33

And then they do it again and again and again. And it's like if you do feel that way all the time, then that's an issue.

42:41

Right. Go take care of that with actual people like in person. Nothing on social media is going to make you feel better about yourself.

42:52

Right. Nothing. Nothing. Let's come back to where we started with the episode today.

42:57

So in Matthew chapter 12, beginning in verse 33, either make the tree good and its fruit will be good or make the tree bad and its fruit will be bad.

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For a tree is known by its fruit. You brood of vipers. How can you being evil speak what is good?

43:14

For the mouth speaks out of that which is in the heart. The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil.

43:25

But I tell you that every careless word that people speak or type or swipe on Twitter and social media for every careless word they shall give an account in the day of judgment for by your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned.

43:44

That's Matthew 12 verses 33 to 37. Yeah. So let's keep a watch on what we say.

43:50

We sympathize with David in the Psalms. Lord, keep a guard over the door of my mouth.

43:57

Yeah. And then also that goes back to the whole lordship thing that we were talking about.

44:02

Yeah. Self -check. Yep. Self -check. Exactly. Examine yourself. Yes. Ephesians 429, the instruction that we have to build one another up with our words, not tear each other down so that it may give grace to those who hear.

44:15

Mm -hmm. So we do need to be graceful and uplifting or graceful, gracious.

44:21

Gracious. Yeah. And uplifting with the words that we say, not tearing one another down, but sharing the grace of God.

44:28

If you have the grace of God that has been given to you, then the grace of God should even be demonstrated in the words that you say.

44:35

Mm -hmm. Practice speaking graciously at home. Yes. I need to do that more this week.

44:41

Yes. It's been a rough week. It has been a long week. And I've done a lot of typing this week, so I'm mostly glued to a computer and then

44:48

I come home and have to interact. Yes. Kind of tough to switch gears. That's right. That's exactly it.

44:55

But it's wonderful to be married to you, my love. Aw, likewise. My favorite part of the day is going home, so let's do that.

45:05

Yes. We're at the church office recording this episode, working on the deck.

45:11

I'm still doing that project and hopefully able to build the office underneath and then we'll be able to record at home and not have to leave and come down to my office at the church.

45:18

That would be a blessing. It would be. So continue to pray for us in that project. Let me say a quick prayer.

45:24

As I just prayed a little bit ago, we'll say a prayer to close out. Yes. And then stay tuned. I think we've got an outtake at the very end.

45:31

All right. Heavenly Father, thank you for this time together.

45:37

Thank you for your word. The things that we've talked about, may we put these things into practice so that we may walk as Jesus walked.

45:45

May we know how to check ourselves and do so humbly so that we will put off that which is fleshly and put on that which is heavenly.

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We do, as is said in Colossians 3, fixing our minds on Christ, on the things that are above where Christ is.

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And when Christ, who is our life, appears, then we also will appear with him in glory. It's in Jesus name we pray.

46:08

Amen. Amen. Lights.

46:19

Camera. Action. This is when we understand. Why do I sound funny? Now it's better.

46:30

It sounded fine to me. No, I was talking in the side of it, so I wasn't. And I talk quiet anyway.

46:37

There. There. Better do it that way. Do I have to get closer? No, now it's not tight.

46:43

What did you do? It just sounds weird.

46:57

There. Okay. You got it? No. Don't pull it too much. How's this?

47:03

That's better. Sorry. Okay. Now that that's covered. You sound nice.

47:10

Stop. Are you ready?

47:19

Yes, yes I am. Oh my goodness, stop. Hey, if you can't flirt with your wife, who can?

47:29

Stop. Just stop. Just stop. No. You don't have to finish that.