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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona, this is the Dividing Line.

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.

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Our host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

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This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll free across the

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United States. It's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now, with today's topic, here is

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James White. And good afternoon. Welcome to the Dividing Line. On a Thursday afternoon, we are in June, believe it or not, of 2011, and I am going to introduce take the time to report to you on a very interesting experience

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I had Tuesday evening as I sat in a chair right in front of the pulpit of the

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Mormon Ward Chapel up on Rose Lane in Phoenix, actually the home of the

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Deer Valley First Ward, and had an opportunity discussing Mormonism with a future convert and a brother in the

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Lord. But first, I need to let you know that I'm going to be starting to rack up more frequent flyer miles over the course of the next number of months, and I start tomorrow morning.

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I'm heading down to Grace Reformed Baptist Church, which is at 3930

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Glade Valley Drive in Kingwood, Texas. Now, I have been told that it's going to be like 97 degrees there today, with about 97 % humidity.

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Houston, I'm going to tell you, is the one place that ...

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In August, we understand Houston, but it's tougher than even here.

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Now, you're not going to start doing that today, are you? Doing what? That. You're talking about Texas.

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I think about the Dallas Cowboys. I think about barbecue. I think about a lot of cool things going on down there.

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You're lucky you're getting to go there. Very providential. Okay, Rich, break fingers in the future, just so you know.

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We've got some training going on in the other room, and the Dallas Cowboys do not count as an appropriate means of interruption.

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No, that doesn't ... Besides, this is Houston. They had the other team, which went to Tennessee, didn't they?

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Now, they went ... They can't even keep football teams around. What was the Cowboys' record last year again?

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Just remind me. What was it again? I've forgotten. We have a call coming in, that's why

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I've got to go now. That's what I thought. Grace Reformed Baptist Church, 3930

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Glade Valley Drive, Kingwood, Texas. I am going to be ... When did

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I ... I had this up. I had it up on my screen. Anyways, I'm speaking tomorrow night at seven, and then twice on Saturday, and once on Sunday morning, and Islam is going to be the primary topic of discussion there at Grace Reformed Baptist Church.

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I've been there once before, looking forward to being with the elders there in Houston this weekend. Oh, it's right in front of me, duh.

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Seven o 'clock, Saturday, 1 .30 to 3, 3 .30 to 5, and then 7

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Saturdays is going to be a long day, and then Sunday morning at 10 .15 is when I will be preaching there at Grace Reformed Baptist Church as well in Houston.

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Then I come home for a few days and head right back out. I am going to be over with my good friends at Calvary Santa Fe, Santa Fe, New Mexico, which is ...

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That's good, has a bat in his hand, that's good. Santa Fe, New Mexico on Saturday, June 11th, 6 p .m.

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at the church, 2520 Camino Entrada in Santa Fe, New Mexico, 6 p .m.

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the Practical Implications of Reformed Theology on Christian Living, Sunday 10 a .m. the Practical Implications of Reformed Theology on Maintaining a

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Christian Worldview, 1 p .m. the Practical Implications of Reformed Theology on Suffering, and 6 p .m.

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the Practical Implications of Reformed Theology on Evangelism. Now, this is the first time I've actually looked at that that closely, and I just realized that they have made the mistake of scheduling me to speak during my

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BAPTANAP. The Practical Implications of Reformed Theology on Suffering will fit well with what

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I will be going through at that time, because I will be suffering, because I am a Baptist, and by genetic programming,

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I go to sleep on Sunday afternoons. So, that's going to be a short sermon, because I will be suffering at that point.

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But anyway, that's Calvary Santa Fe. You can go to calvarysantafe .org

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if you want to take a look at that and look at that information.

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Then I'm going from, and that's calvarysantafe .org, I'm going from there up to Boulder, Colorado.

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Boulder, Colorado, and I will be talking, I will be at Flatirons Baptist, the reference is flatironsbaptist .org,

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Flatirons Baptist Church, 5475 South Boulder Road in Boulder, Colorado. I will be speaking on the subject of the

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Authorship, Canonicity, and Transmission of the New Testament. And so, I'll be speaking

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Thursday evening, June 16th at 645, Friday evening,

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June 17th at 645, and Sunday, June 19th at 915 and 1030 a .m.

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in the services. You may be asking, that's a little bit odd that you would be speaking

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Thursday night, Friday night, and Sunday, but we decided it would be best not to speak on Saturday, because I and other people from the

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Church are going to be riding in the Sunrise Century, which is a ride out of Boulder, Colorado, 100 miles, 7 ,000 feet of ascent, and so I just couldn't really guarantee the orthodoxy of pretty much anything

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I would say Saturday evening, after having ridden 100 miles, climbing 7 ,000 feet to as high as 9 ,300 feet above sea level, so we've thought wisdom would be to, you know, not do it that way.

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So, that's the next three things I have coming up, Houston this weekend, Santa Fe next weekend, and Boulder the weekend after that, and so what that obviously means is, while next year, next week's schedule of the

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Dividing Line should be pretty normal, after that it is anybody's guess. I will try, if I can, to do some

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Skype DLs, if I've got a good internet connection, you know, I can't guarantee that, we'll see, we've made it work before, we'll work it out, we'll see what happens.

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So, we'll work on that. So, there's the information, I will try to get that up on the website as well, just in case you didn't get all that, but if you didn't, just hit the backwards thing on the player and you'll be able to get all of it.

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877 -753 -3341 had clearly one of the most unusual opportunities this

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Tuesday evening I've ever had. It came up really fast, that's why I didn't even know about it during the

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Dividing Line on Tuesday. And it is interesting that I decided

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I was going to talk about this on the same day that Mitt Romney has announced that he is running for President of the

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United States, which I think he started running for President of the United States about six years ago. So, he's got a running start here.

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And that's raising all the questions once again about the subject of Mormonism.

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This ministry began first and foremost with a focus upon Mormonism.

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And while that is not our main focus any longer, it has never ceased to be something very, very important to me.

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I do not believe that our movement away from that as the central focus of our work is in any way reflective of any diminishment of the importance of presenting the gospel of Jesus Christ to the

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Mormon people, because they are just as much in need of that gospel today as they ever were.

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Yes, Mormonism has changed and is changing. The core theology has not changed, but the emphasis of the teachings of the leadership of the

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Church has changed over the years. And the experience of talking to Mormons has certainly changed over the years.

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There was a day when we would go out to the LDS Easter pageant, and the young people would gather around us, and they wanted to talk about what they believed and what we believed.

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And they had distinct beliefs that they felt were important enough to defend.

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And the missionaries would actually say, this is the one true church. I mean, most of them wouldn't go quite as far as Elder Hollywood did when he, early on, back in the mid -1980s, got in my face and was pointing at me.

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He was a good six inches taller than I was, and he was pointing at me, and in a very loud voice that everybody around us could hear, he said, someday

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I'm going to be a god, and you're going to worship me. And then he realized how loudly he had said that, and was sort of embarrassed by that.

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But, you know, I can talk with folks like that. By the way, I ran into him years later in Salt Lake City. He wasn't even a

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Mormon anymore. But, be that as it may, I can talk to folks like that, because they have a belief.

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It's always been difficult for me to talk with the liberal who really doesn't have any beliefs at all, or doesn't feel that there's any need for consistency in belief, and things like that.

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And so, there was a day when the missionaries would do everything in their power to get as many tracts out of people's hands as they could.

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I still have a picture somewhere of this one young missionary with his suit jacket pocket stuffed with our tracts that he had stolen from people, that he had literally taken from people.

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He was going to throw them away. And that just doesn't happen anymore. The missionaries don't really seem to care.

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The Mormons don't really want to talk. Things have changed. The Mormonism of 3 .3

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million people, or 5 million people, is different than the Mormonism of 13 or 14 million people.

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And we could talk a lot about why that is, and the fact that the growth has been so fast, and I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that Mormon epistemology, and interestingly enough, one of the young Mormons I was speaking with Tuesday evening, in the first question he asked me used that term of epistemology.

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Mormon epistemology is pretty much incapable of resisting post -modernism.

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And I think that has impacted greatly the issues and the practice of Mormonism.

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But anyway, it used to be, there was a day when the missionaries in the city of Phoenix, in the

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Arizona Phoenix Mission, knew who I was because I was so often being asked to go meet with missionaries in people's homes.

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There was a time when we were meeting with missionaries so regularly. There was also a time we had a special phone line for Mormons to call, 2662

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LDS. We had 2662 LDS, 2662 JWS, and 2662 RCC.

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And those were numbers that you could call, and you could listen to messages from Mormons, and Jehovah's Witnesses, and Roman Catholics.

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And I still have very fond memories of gathering after church on a

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Sunday night to record those messages. And sometimes, I know a few times, no matter how hard we try, you got into one of those moods where you couldn't say something without cracking up over it.

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And we had some very interesting times trying to get some of those things recorded. But anyways, and they'd leave messages, and we ended up having conversations with more missionaries.

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And we had just some incredible... Rich was telling me about one encounter. I don't even remember a bit of it, but I remember some others very clearly.

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And there was a time, I do remember very clearly, I went to someone's apartment to meet with some missionaries, and they were on the second floor.

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And I was standing in the window of the second floor looking out, and the missionaries... This is an apartment complex.

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So they came up on their bikes, they looked up, they saw me, and they kept going. And a few minutes later, the phone rang.

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They had gone to a Circle K. This is before the days of cell phones. They had gone to a Circle K, called the homeowner, and said, we'll be glad to talk to you, but not with him there.

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Now, I'd never met these guys before, but they recognized me by my picture from the second floor of an apartment complex.

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So there was a time when my picture was being circulated, and beware this person, etc.,

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etc. Well, then we got very involved with Roman Catholicism, and we still kept going up to Salt Lake City.

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Really, a lot of this is traceable to the King James Only Fundamentalist Baptist street preachers, who have ended the outreach up in Salt Lake City and things like that, along with moving into other areas, especially in Roman Catholicism, the 1990s, and then middle of the last decade into the subject of Islam as well.

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And so, obviously, the Mormons in this area are...

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And of course, the area has grown so rapidly since then. Phoenix is a much larger area than it was back then.

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And so what happened was, a gentleman who is known to the

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Mormon community for a long time, and I was talking, and he was talking about a young man, a young man in the sense of about the age of my kids, so that's what

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I consider young men, but mid -twenties, who is scheduled to be baptized into the

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Mormon Church. And he had been meeting with him and talking with him. And we were talking about some of the conversations that were coming up, and he said, you know, would you be willing to meet with him?

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And I said, sure, you know. And I hadn't heard anything for a while. And so Tuesday afternoon,

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I get a text, are you ready to meet this evening? And I said, well, I hadn't heard anything. Where is it going to be? And I was surprised when the information was passed on to me that the meeting with this young man and the

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Mormon missionaries with whom he's been meeting would take place at a Mormon ward chapel.

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Now, in all the years, I mean, I've been in Mormon ward chapels, but not in this context. In fact, back in 1983 or 84, somewhere around in there, a group of five of us, as I recall, went to the

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Glendale Sixth Ward in Glendale, Arizona on a Sunday afternoon during fasting and testimony meeting.

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And I got up and gave my testimony during fasting and testimony meeting in the Mormon ward chapel.

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They didn't say you weren't allowed to. Anybody wants to give a testimony, so I got up and gave my testimony.

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And we ended up talking with the bishop for Christ in time, Bishop Stanley Buell was his name. And that was the first time

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I ever had someone tell me that they believe that there were perfect men on earth, that there were men who had not sinned on earth.

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I immediately added a few more Bible verses to my memorization list at that point after my conversation with Stanley Buell.

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I think I was 83, because I know I was married, obviously. I hadn't been married very long, so I think it was probably 1983.

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And even as I spoke to the missionaries this last time around,

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I was realizing these missionaries are a good bit younger than my youngest child. So things have changed a little bit since my first conversations with Elders Reed and Reese back in 1982, which is what began my study of Mormonism and eventually led to Alpha Omega Ministries.

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So I was like, they want to meet at the ward chapel? Well, okay. The missionaries were sisters, so they weren't

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Elders, they were sisters. And so, you know, I can understand why they might want to have it someplace where there are other people around and stuff like that.

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That might be a good idea, but I thought it was going to be pretty interesting to be going in and talking with these individuals in that type of a context.

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I've never done anything like that before. And so we got together and we go in and they bring some chairs in.

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And ironically, instead of going into one of the side rooms or something like that, we met in the actual room, in the actual meeting room itself, where the talks are given and where the testimony, fastening and testimony meeting is and stuff like that.

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And so they brought some chairs in. And so some people, there was me and my

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Christian brother, and there was the young man who's getting baptized. And then there were the two sisters.

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And then there were two more Mormons, a guy who's a college age and a young woman about, seems about the same age, somewhere mid -twenties,

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I would estimate, someplace in that range. And so there were four Mormons, a soon -to -be

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Mormon, and my brother and I. And I sat in the chair right in front of the pulpits.

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So from six o 'clock to 730 for 90 minutes, as I sought to address the issues of truth, of who

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God is, of the fundamental conflict between Christianity and Mormonism, I was sitting right in front of the pulpit of the meeting house.

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I did think back briefly to getting the opportunity years ago of standing in front of the high altar of one of the largest

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Roman Catholic churches in Southern California, in El Cajon, and debating the subject of the mass and justification in two different debates with Mitchell Pacwa, and said, boy,

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I've gotten to go to some very interesting places. Not quite as interesting as, Lord willing, next

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April, when we seek to arrange the debate in the

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South London Mosque. We've already been invited to do that. The South London Mosque is currently the largest physical mosque in the

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UK, or at least in London, maybe not the UK. I should take that back in London. And that will prove to be quite interesting itself.

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So anyway, how'd the conversation go? Well, I would love to report to you that, you know, all the

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Mormons repented and believed and hit their knees right there. That's just unrealistic. We had an opportunity, once again, to see the fundamental issues at play.

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And there were things that had not changed since the last time I had spoken with Mormons in depth.

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But there were a few things that had. What did surprise me is that the ladies did most of the talking, and the one guy that was there was pretty quiet.

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Now, that could have just been a personal thing, but that's not really the way it was back in the mid to late 1980s.

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You know, Mormonism is still a rather patriarchal system. But it was primarily the ladies who did the talking and not even the two sisters.

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It was another lady named Mary who did a lot of the conversation.

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The things that stayed the same was the subjective nature of the

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Mormon testimony and the confusion on how you even know what truth is.

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It came up over and over again. It did not matter how many times I addressed it, how many times I attempted to make it very, very clear what the foundations of knowledge are and the fact that our feelings are not to be our guide.

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Unless the Holy Spirit of God brings conviction of that to a person's heart, I'm wasting my breath.

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But you still have to attempt as best you can, in as many ways as you can, to explain, to illustrate, to rephrase.

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And that's what I was attempting to do. And I was straight up front with who I was, what

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I do. I told them about the books I've written on the subject of Mormonism, and it was very, very clear very quickly that they immediately defaulted back into your standard

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Mormon ways of thought. And what do I mean by that? Well, if things are going the

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Mormon way in a conversation, then they'll be willing to discuss anything. They'll be willing to quote -unquote

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Bible bash as long as they feel the Spirit. In other words, as long as they're getting their points out, there isn't any meaningful refutation, they're not being put in a corner and shown to be inconsistent or things like that, then the

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Spirit's there and all is well. If they are being shown to be inconsistent and they're being asked questions that they really can't answer, then very quickly they default back,

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A, well, I know these things are true. I know these things are true. And then, B, well, I don't feel the

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Spirit. And as soon as they start saying, I don't feel the Spirit, you know they're trying to wrap this up. And that started about a little bit before 7 o 'clock.

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So I managed to get about 55 minutes in before the, I don't feel the Spirit started, and still managed to get another half hour in after that before everything got shut down.

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But obviously, what I had done is I had photocopied the key page from pages 4 and 5 from the

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Achieving Celestial Marriage student handbook that the LDS Church published back in 92.

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And I just wanted to go over that. My biggest concern was this young man and wanting to make sure that he knows what it is that Mormonism teaches, specifically on the doctrine of God.

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Before he makes this commitment, he needs to understand this isn't, you know, being a Baptist and becoming a Lutheran or something like that.

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This is a completely different religion. It involves a fundamental repudiation of Christian belief.

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It is a polytheistic religion that has a completely different view of the nature of God, the nature of man, the nature of reality, the nature of the universe, the nature of truth, the nature of revelation, completely different than anything

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Christian has ever held. It is a foreign religion. And I want to make sure that was very clear.

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And so I actually photocopied that, brought the book with me, passed it out, never really got to it, because whenever I start going in that direction, well, you just want to argue doctrine.

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Well, of course, they were arguing doctrine. They just didn't want to admit that they're arguing doctrine. And so I would, in the way of illustration, bring up issues to demonstrate that they're continually going back to, well, it's the spirit that tells us, it's the spirit tells us.

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Okay, well, who is the spirit? Is he not called the spirit of truth? Will the spirit of truth testify to the truthfulness of falsehood?

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Well, no, it wouldn't. Okay, therefore, if that's the case, let's look at, for example,

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Isaiah 44, 24, where Yahweh creates the earth all alone, spreads the word of heaven all by himself.

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Now, in Mormonism, Yahweh is sent down by Elohim in company with Michael. He doesn't do this by himself.

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He doesn't actually create anything. He only organizes preexisting matter. So you have the

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LDS Church's teaching, and you have the biblical teaching. Which one are you going to accept and why?

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And I raised other issues, Colossians chapter 1, Jesus Christ is the creator of all things. And so who created the that Elohim lived on when he was a man?

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Well, we don't need to know that. We don't need to know that. Really? Joseph Smith said it was the first principle of the gospel.

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No, it's certainly the character of God. No, we may converse with him as one man converses with another. Yea, the God himself was once a man lived on the planet.

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It seems like he thought it was the first principle of the gospel, a foundational thing, not just something we go, well, you know.

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And I was a little bothered by the fact that I had to drag out of the Mormons a confession of their own scriptures.

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At one point they were talking about how terrible it would be that I would disagree with someone's testimony.

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And I talked about the book of Galatians and Paul's disagreeing with the testimony of the Judaizers. But then

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I wanted to point out that, look, you need to realize something. They had said, well, you've come here to attack our religions.

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Excuse me, I repudiate that. You remember the first vision.

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They always sort of look at me. What did Joseph Smith say in the first vision? And they start giving all this irrelevant stuff.

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No, no, no, no. When he asked which church he should join, what was he told? Well, not everybody has all the truth.

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No, that's not what he was told. Look, folks, I've got your scriptures right here.

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I know what they say, and I think you know what they say, too. What did it say about their creeds and their professors?

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I had to drag it out of them that, according to the first vision, all their creeds are abomination, their professors are corrupt.

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I said, now, you know, you're telling me how you don't feel the spirit because I say that Mormonism is wrong, and yet your own scriptures say this.

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And so I really had to, you know, sort of drag stuff out. And, you know, when I quoted the eighth article of faith, they only quoted part of it.

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I quoted all of it. And, you know, if they were talking with a

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Christian that did not know Mormon scripture, had not read the Book of Mormon, and all the other associated documents, you know,

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I'm sorry. This wasn't a really overly open, truthful presentation going on there.

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So eventually, you know, the missionaries wanted to, you know, shut this down and close it down, and we did.

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And, you know, the situation is ongoing, and I would ask for your prayer, not only for the

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Mormons to whom we bore testimony, but to the young man who as far as I know is still planning on getting baptized.

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But it's going to be a baptism of ignorance, because as far as I can tell, he really hasn't even finished the

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Book of Mormon, let alone does he even have any knowledge of the Doctrine and Covenants before a great price. And that, unfortunately, is something that Mormonism excels at.

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Get you baptized on the minimum amount of information, and then friendship you in easily to the rest of it over time.

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That seems to be the mechanism that they utilize, which is, I don't know, is very much a problem for me, from my perspective.

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I just don't think that that's the appropriate way of going. So it was, I don't know, it was a very, very interesting situation to sit in the front of a

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Mormon ward chapel and be able to testify that Joseph Smith preached a different God, and a different gospel.

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It brought me back a lot of memories, but it was sad to engage this one young Mormon woman, and she so clearly had such a completely unbiblical view of man, just a completely unbiblical view of man, that at one point

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I said, well, you know, they kept saying, well, are you saying that all these people who are involved in other religions are not sincere?

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Because that was their big thing, was sincerity. And why are there all these different churches?

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I said, sin? Oh, they didn't like that. They just mocked that.

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And I said, well, do you believe what the Apostle Paul said in Romans chapter three, there is none that seeketh after God?

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Well, now there you go with doctrine again. No, I'm just asking you a direct question. Do you believe? Yes, this is a yes or no question.

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Do you believe there is none that seeketh after God? Man, she wouldn't give a straight answer to that, but eventually, as long as I wasn't quoting the

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Bible, she said, of course there are people who seek after God. It's just absurd not to believe that. So once again, we're back to divine revelation says

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X, and you don't believe that. That's just all there is to it. And so again, without the convicting power of the

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Holy Spirit working in those folks' lives, they're never going to listen to what I had to say. But there's always a starting point, and hopefully that will be a starting point for them.

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So pray for those young Mormons and for the young man as well. And we'll go from there.

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You want to go all the way down there first? Okay. All right. Let's get some of our phone calls. Let's talk to Gregory.

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Hi, Gregory. Good day. Yes, sir. Yes, yes.

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I'm calling concerning some stuff that is on my mind. First of all, concerning limited atonement.

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Okay. Yeah, concerning limited atonement. I have heard and read some

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Calvinists, and I have heard them in reference to limited atonement.

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I have heard them reference Revelations chapter 5, verses 9 and 10.

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And there is a connection that I am yet to hear any Calvinist make.

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And I have made it. And in my country here in Saint Kitts in the West Indies, I have been on the air, and I have spoke with Armenians, and I am yet to hear them give me a decent answer.

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And I'm also yet to hear a Calvinist make this connection. And the connection is this.

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Revelation chapter 5, verse 9 says, it tells you about the work of Jesus Christ on the cross, that he died for men of all nations, tongues, etc.

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But then verse 10 also tells me that all who he died for in verse 9, they all are kings and priests unto him, and they all will reign with him.

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All of them who he died for in verse 9 of Revelation chapter 5.

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And I am yet to come across a Calvinist who make that definite connection.

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And I said I was going to mention it because I think it is a very, very, very strong connection and evidence concerning which

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I am yet to hear an Armenian give me, even attempt to give me a decent answer.

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Well, Gregory, certainly in my discussions of Revelation chapter 5, verses 9 through 10 in the

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Potter's Freedom and things like that, have very strongly made the same connection that you are making, and that is that what you have very plainly in this text is a focus upon the worthiness of Christ.

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It is Christ's work. It says, worthy are you. You were slain by your blood.

32:45

You ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation. You made them a kingdom and priest to our

32:52

God. All of that is the work of Christ. And so it is directly connected with the self -sufficiency of the atoning work of Christ, the intention of the work of Christ, and the fact that Christ's work is sufficient in and of itself to accomplish the triune

33:11

God's purposes in the accomplishment of his self -glorification. So I believe you are exactly right, and it is a point that I have made.

33:21

And when I have raised the issue, generally, the response from Armenians has been to flee

33:28

Revelation chapter 5 and go to one of their main texts, like Matthew 23 or something like that, but not to deal with the actual words of the song in Revelation chapter 5.

33:40

Yeah, because when I ask them on the air and talking to both, when I ask them, well, verse 9 is dealing with his work on the cross, and verse 10 is telling me that all who he died for on the cross, this is true of them.

33:53

They are kings and priests, and they will reign to him. So if you believe that some are going to hell, then how do you explain this, that all who he died for, we are kings and priests, and we will reign unto him?

34:07

And I am yet to have an Armenian give me a decent answer. The only attempt one ought to have made is to say that in Revelation chapter 5, verses 9 and 10, it is talking about different people.

34:20

Different people, you mean different people between verses 9 and 10? Yes, that's the closest one

34:28

I told them to try to answer me, that it's speaking about different people who are going through the tribulation period.

34:34

But I continue to say to them, no, verse 9 is dealing with the atonement of Christ on the cross, where he died for a certain set of people that he actually covered.

34:46

Well, not only that, but just simply on a grammatical level, autous at the beginning of verse 10 clearly is referring back to those that are found in verse 9.

34:59

So there's no way to insert some type of break there and introduce some kind of different audience there.

35:05

So no, there's no question, and this is one of my favorite texts. I normally connect it together with John chapter 11, as well as John chapter 6, verse 39 and 40, where Jesus says he's come down out of heaven to do the will of his

35:18

Father. The will of his Father is that of all that he gives him, he lose none of them, but raise up on the last day.

35:24

Again, the focus is upon the ability and power of Christ, not in creating some type of self -help methodology, but in actually accomplishing the redemption of his people to the glory of the triune

35:39

God. So I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for a meaningful response to Revelation chapter 5.

35:46

I don't think you're going to be getting it. Yes. Also, what I wanted to speak about quickly as well,

35:53

Romans chapter 11, verse 36, and also when

35:59

I speak to Armenians, when they come to me with their freewill concept, I say to them, Romans chapter 11, verse 36 says,

36:07

God, all things are from God, by God, and to God. And I say, if all things, as the

36:15

Bible says, is from God, by God, and to God, and to God, if that is so, then how can one have freewill?

36:23

And they're not able to give me any decent answer on that one as well.

36:29

And this is one of the passages I always refer to in going against the freewill concept.

36:39

Well, I would imagine that the response from the Armenian at that point, if I can take their position, would be that the language of Romans 11, verse 36, is the same language that is used, for example, in 1

36:56

Corinthians chapter 8, verse 6, where it's divided up between the Father and the Son.

37:02

It's primarily creative language. And while I would agree with you that this is about the sovereignty of God as creator over all things,

37:10

I would imagine the Armenian would say, well, but man's will, though it is not ultimately autonomous over God's will, yes, can still be of, yes, are you still there?

37:23

Yes, I'm here, I'm here. Okay. I would imagine that they would say that God can create man with a quote -unquote freewill without violating the sense of this passage,

37:37

I think would be the argument. I think it's best to deal on that level either philosophically with the fact there can only be one autonomous will, and that is

37:46

God's, or I tend to focus more biblically on the fact that the scriptures are very plain that man's will is captive to sin, and that there's much more in the that's concerned.

38:02

So I think that's something to keep in mind there. Hey, Gregor, we're getting some noise, I think, but thank you very much for listening from Mid -Island

38:08

West Indies, and keep up the good work down there. Yeah, thank you. Thank you, Gregor. All right,

38:14

God bless. Bye -bye. All right, I'm going to go ahead and take care of this phone call so we can go to the other subjects here, and because I had left a comment,

38:25

I've not had an opportunity to go back. Let me give some background here real quick before we bring him on.

38:32

Last week, I believe we had a call from a man who identifies himself as open -air atheist.

38:38

I had never heard of him before. I'm sorry, I just hadn't. After we had our conversation that sort of ran us out of the program, we didn't have much time really to conclude things, which

38:52

I like to do on programs. We went right up to the music at the end, and it was not one of those situations where we could extend the program.

38:59

Sometimes we can, sometimes we can't. It all depends on everybody that's involved with the program and what their schedule is. But be that as it may,

39:07

I had a few minutes, and I'm very, very busy right now with book projects and things like that and with the traveling coming up and everything else, but I had a few minutes to go to his

39:16

YouTube channel, start looking around, and I started watching one particular video. I watched the opening video that's placed at the beginning of his channel, and it had pictures of Greek texts and textual criticism and stuff like that.

39:30

I was like, oh, that's my field. I've taught Greek, and it sounds like this fellow's claiming to know

39:38

Greek and textual criticism and stuff like that. So I found a video about that particular subject and started watching it, and lo and behold, there is a whole section from Bart Ehrman.

39:51

Of course, I've debated Bart Ehrman on this very subject, and so I left comments about this.

39:58

Now, this would be a subject that we could discuss because it's something I've written on and something I know a lot about.

40:05

I've been told that there was a response. I have not had time to look at it. Someone summarized for me in channel. I think it was

40:10

TurretinFan summarized for me in channel that the response had something to do with, well, yeah, we can discuss this, but here are my demands,

40:21

I guess. One of them was that I couldn't say that he was a denier or something, that he was in denial of God's existence.

40:28

I'm not sure what that has to do with textual criticism. But one of them was that I had to provide him with a DVD of my debate with Bart Ehrman, which means he's not seen the debate with Bart Ehrman, I guess, which makes me wonder just how thorough his research was in his quick deconversion of Christianity.

40:45

But it just struck me as odd because when I challenged

40:51

Bart Ehrman to debate, I never wrote to him and said, dear Bart, I'll debate you, but would you send me all your books?

40:58

I've been buying Bart Ehrman's books. I have all of them, including his Brill compilation, one of which is $169 just simply for one volume.

41:07

When I debated him, I had his doctoral dissertation sitting on my desk, which I had read as well. And it just struck me as,

41:14

I don't know, humorous. Again, I didn't read it, so maybe I was wrong about that. But there's the background, the information.

41:20

So let's go ahead and take Open Air Atheist. Welcome back to the program,

41:25

Open Air Atheist. That's a very long title to use, Open Air Atheist.

41:31

It seems sort of impersonal, doesn't it? Yeah, I guess. If you want my real name, it's

41:37

James Theodore Stilwell III. Yes, I knew it was James, but there's two

41:43

Jameses, and that gets really, really confusing. But there's a billion Jameses out there.

41:49

I have a question first before we begin this, and that is, can

41:55

I record this conversation for my viewers? Well, you're recording it already.

42:01

I'm sure you are. No, I'm not. Oh, well, everybody's listening to this.

42:07

That's fine with me. I appreciate that. I'll try to hook you up. Especially since, as I recall, you had a video up within about an hour of the last program.

42:18

But that's irrelevant. Just wanted to basically follow up on the comment, because I didn't see what your response was.

42:27

And that is, I think it would be useful, if you do take

42:32

Bart Ehrman's perspective, to have a discussion of his claims.

42:38

But to be honest with you, I was struck by your opening video that you seem to be making a claim to have certain knowledge in that field.

42:49

So I wanted to find out, what knowledge do you actually have? Can you actually read Greek? Yes, I can.

42:57

Actually, I was noticing there are some passages I'm not really well -acquainted with.

43:04

So it's not like you can just flip to any random page, and probably any random page, and then

43:10

I'll be able to make out some things. And then I may or may not have to go and see what tense it's in, and what case, or whatever.

43:16

There are some passages that I know quite well. I noticed that one of your debate presuppositions, of course, is that every scripture is theanoustos,

43:28

God -breathed. And that's something

43:34

I wanted to touch on. I'm not really prepared to get into textual criticism at this point, because, again,

43:40

I made stipulations, and I feel unwise to get into any kind of discourse when

43:47

I haven't seen your anti -arguments for Dr.

43:53

Ehrman's works. That strikes me as odd, because it does seem like your conversion was rather rapid.

44:01

My conversion really doesn't have anything to do with whether your God exists or doesn't exist.

44:07

Well, it certainly has a lot to do with your claims that you're making about yourself, because right now, what

44:14

I was asking you, what is your formal training in Greek and textual criticism? Well, I never attended any kind of seminary or college.

44:26

I listened to a lot of lectures. I studied on my own. So you're self -taught in it? Exactly. I don't have any kind of, and I've never claimed to have, to be some sort of Greek scholar.

44:38

No, but come on, let me just ask you one thing. James, James, James, James, James. When I was doing evangelism, for instance, say

44:45

I would use John 3, 16, and I would study the original language of that.

44:52

Every single one constantly exercising faith into Christ will not perish, but have life eternal.

45:00

James, hold on. James, are we going to have a give -and -take, or are you just going to keep going on here? I'm trying to have a conversation here.

45:08

It did strike me that your opening video, the one that comes up when you come to your channel, the things that you put on the screen there did seem to indicate that you were claiming some level of knowledge, and yet even what you're doing just right now.

45:27

Now, I do not teach New Testament Greek on a regular basis any longer. I did for a number of years for Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary, but I can read

45:37

Greek, and I can read across from Matthew to Revelation and outside of that, and I know the danger of a little knowledge of Greek, and you were just illustrating that for me.

45:52

And so my question is, when you made your move, and again,

46:00

I would consider it a rapid move. I mean, if we met and you were, quote -unquote, on my side when

46:06

I debated Dan Barker, that wasn't that long ago. And if you're now so firm that you are doing this atheism stuff online, that's a fast move.

46:16

If you want to dispute that, fine. We can argue about what's fast or not. But who did you read in defense of the integrity of the text of the

46:29

New Testament? Certainly, the text of the New Testament wasn't the only thing that caused me to take my current position.

46:38

There are many, many things, and just one of them I brought up, you know, evolution I brought up while I was trying to bring up other things.

46:46

But who did you read on that subject? I mean, you put it in the video. If you hadn't put a picture of a

46:51

Greek New Testament, and I think at one point I could bring it up here, don't you have textual criticism?

46:58

Isn't that one of the things you actually put on the screen? I'd have to go back to that video. I think

47:04

I did say that I'd studied textual criticism, and I have. What did you read?

47:10

I'm sorry? How did you study it? What books? Well, one book that I used a lot was—I can't remember the name of it, but it's by Dr.

47:19

Geisler. Norman Geisler? Yeah. You mean his general introduction—

47:24

My pastor gave it to me for, and he gives it to— You mean his general introduction to the Bible with Geisler and Nix?

47:31

I can't remember. It's been a while since I've been into textual criticism. But that's not on textual criticism.

47:37

Geisler's not a textual critic. There is a rather lengthy portion in the book that I am referring to on textual criticism.

47:44

Okay, so you had a very basic introductory text, but you've not—have you read Metzger? Have you read

47:50

Fee? Have you read anything by Epp? Any of that kind of stuff?

47:58

You know, it's been a while since I've been into textual criticism. A lot of the textual criticism that I've done is in comparing manuscripts and watching what phrases are added, what phrases are not in the newer manuscripts, and trying to contemplate why.

48:21

Why are they not there anymore? Newer manuscripts. So you can—do you have facility with the

48:27

Nessie Olin 27th edition, with the textual critical material in the United Bible Society text? Yes.

48:33

Actually, I have the—hold on a second. Let's see if I can get out here.

48:43

I have the Texas Receptus, and I also have the critical text. Which critical text?

48:49

Let me whip it out here. United Bible Society's or Nessie Olin? It's not one that I use quite often.

48:58

But that would be the only one that has textual critical data. It's a revised edition. Yeah, UBS 4.

49:04

Okay. Okay. That's a translator's text. So you don't even have Nessie Olin, which is the one that gives you the vast majority of the textual variants.

49:12

The UBS only gives you a very select portion that are relevant to translators or translating languages. No, no, not at this time.

49:18

I'm just saying what I have now. It's been a while since I've done any kind of textual studies.

49:23

And can I ask— This is something that actually started me wanting to learn

49:29

Greek when I was a Christian. Of course, you would debate me on whether I was ever a Christian, but this is something that kind of intrigued my interest in Greek.

49:39

Of course, of course. But my point is that if you have the Texas Receptus, is that the blue case -bound edition from the

49:45

Trinitarian Bible Society? This is—

49:50

TBS on the spine? Blue? Uh, yeah, it is from the

49:58

Bible Society. Right. But the guy who puts this particular thing out is J .P. Green. Oh, okay.

50:04

Yes. All right. All right. Okay. That's interesting. Okay. All right. So I would simply say to you, it doesn't sound like you even have access to the meaningful resources.

50:16

I could direct you to some meaningful resources. We offer them, for example, Comfort's New Testament Text Translation Commentary would certainly be a good addition for you there.

50:26

And you'd have to have the Nessie Olin text. I don't know what kind of computer platform you use, but all this is available electronically now, either in Logos, BibleWorks, or Accordance.

50:37

But to engage meaningfully the subject of textual criticism and to, as a quote -unquote atheist, have it on your website.

50:46

Well, hold on a second. I was appealing to Dr. Ehrman's works. I was not claiming any kind of assertions really on my own.

50:53

Uncritically. Excuse me? Uncritically. No, not uncritically, because some of the conclusions that were very basic and some of the things that he'd brought up were things that I'd saw on my own.

51:06

But you cannot check them out, can you? I did at one time, but like I said, that's been a while.

51:12

But I've already asked you, James, I've already asked you if you have read the most basic introductory text that would allow you to critically analyze

51:21

Bart Ehrman's claims, and you have not. And I'm simply saying to you, if you're going to put that on your opening video, if you're going to have it as you put that stuff out there, how is that any different than the people you would criticize for parroting creation arguments that you would now find ridiculous?

51:38

What I was dealing with, okay, in that video was, for instance, how the woman caught in the act of adultery—

51:48

John 753 -811. Excuse me? John 753 -811. The Piricope adultery, one of the most—

51:55

Okay, and how that was, you know, not found in a manuscript in the 10th century.

52:01

No, it's actually in Codex Vesae Canterburgiensis, which is in the 5th century. 5th century, okay, correction there.

52:09

So, you know, many scholars, while you look in your study Bibles, it always says this was, you know, added later.

52:17

Right, but Christians have known that all along. How is that relevant to the criticism of the New Testament? Well, these are things that I'm pointing out.

52:24

If you have things that are added later, if you have little things that are changed as time goes on, then how do you know it wasn't changed a lot?

52:36

Ah, there we go, and the answer that Christians have offered, which certainly you had to evaluate it and reject it, is what?

52:47

What, are you talking about your presupposition that God has protected— No, sir. —scriptures in their,

52:54

I mean— No, sir. See, James, let me tell you something.

53:01

I've known about the Percopaea Adulterae in John 7, 15, or 8, 11 since the time I was a sophomore in college.

53:09

It's basic -level knowledge. I'm sorry you weren't aware of it as a Christian, but it's basic -level knowledge.

53:15

I was aware of it as a Christian. Okay, good. Then as a Christian, what did you do with it?

53:22

As a Christian, what did I do with it? I simply—I think one of the ways I would answer that question is

53:28

I would say, well, it probably did happen. It's something that wasn't in the original text, but it's something that probably did happen, and so they were placing that in there.

53:39

Yeah, it's called the Dominical Story, allegedly has an origin in Jesus, but I would never preach on it as scripture, because it is not found until Codex Vesae Canterburgensis, which is not a really reliable source, in my opinion, when it has major textual variations in the form that it does here.

53:57

But the point is this. These are not things that Christian scholars have not known about. These are not things that we have swept under a rug.

54:05

There's very little that Barthes says that we were not already aware of. It's the presupposition that Barthes has that's the problem.

54:10

The presupposition that Barthes has that he doesn't really want to debate—and believe me, I know this because I've directly interacted with him—is his assertion that if the

54:18

Bible was inspired, there would be absolutely no textual variation whatsoever. There would be no differences at all.

54:23

There are, obviously. Everyone has presuppositions. Me and Dr. Bonser would definitely agree on that, but the problem is which one is more reasonable.

54:33

Well, let me ask you this. Which one is more reasonable? Given Barthes' presupposition, the Bible could not have been revealed until 1949, because that's when the photocopier was invented, right?

54:46

Uh, again, I'd have to, you know, look at that further if I really—I wasn't really prepared to comment on this subject.

54:55

I'm not trying to be— Okay, James, I just wanted to let you know, I did know that you would respond.

55:01

I didn't have the opportunity to look at it. What I'd like you to do, if you would, please, is that the best way for us to communicate and to set up a discussion or something like that is through email and not through comment pages and stuff like that, because I just don't have that type of time, especially when

55:15

I'm traveling. So if you would be so kind, what I will do is, especially since we've got two callers, one has been on hold for 52 minutes,

55:23

I need to get to him before the program runs out, and we're going to have to go a few minutes late if we can, is I'd like to put you on hold.

55:29

I will have Rich or Barry give you my email address, okay?

55:34

So then you can contact me directly. We can work it out from there. That be all right? I think that would be fine.

55:40

I didn't really get into what I was calling about. Well, I'm sorry. You were the third caller, and we had an overseas call.

55:47

I just wanted to make that known that I... That's all right. I'm sure we'll have an opportunity in the future. But, James, I appreciate it.

55:53

Let me put you on hold and let them give you my email address, and we'll go from there. I need to get the other callers quiz again.

55:58

Thank you very much for your call. I'm putting him on hold, and let's talk with Paul. Hi, Paul. Sorry to make you wait for so long.

56:05

Oh, not a problem. Not a problem. I appreciate you taking the call, Dr. Mike. Yes, sir. Hey, I want to leverage your expertise in the

56:12

Greek New Testament, specific to 1 Corinthians 15, 16. I've been told, and I haven't got a clue about the

56:20

Greek grammar, so I'm just relating to you what I've been told. I've been told that the word translated raised in that text is a present passive indicative, and therefore, it's reasonable that it should be translated for if the dead are not being raised, as if it's a current condition, as though they're being resurrected at the point

56:47

Paul is writing that text. And the question I have is, I went through and I looked up a number of translations.

56:55

I can't find any translation that renders it that way, nor do I have any, nor could

57:01

I find any commentary that would suggest such. That's because someone who makes that kind of assertion doesn't read

57:08

Greek very often. That's a problem when people, when you don't actually, and I'm not talking about you,

57:13

I'm just talking about someone who dives into the text, they get themselves a Bible program, they go, oh, this is present indicative, and present indicative normally means present tense, ongoing action, and they don't know what's in second and third year

57:25

Greek, which is called syntax. And syntax is the relationship of words, and we do not communicate in single words.

57:32

We put words together so that words as phrases, sentences, and paragraphs have meaning, and we have to understand what the meaning is at each one of those levels.

57:42

And so a present indicative, there's numerous syntactical categories that describe the present indicative, and it does not have to emphasize some kind of, it has to be ongoing action right now, especially in a context like this, because you have a clause, for if the dead are not raised, then

58:03

Christ was not raised. And so you're looking here at making a contrast between the resurrection of believers and the resurrection of Christ.

58:19

And so unless there is something in the context itself that demands that you focus upon the tenses in the sense of an ongoing action, not in the sense of conditional sentences where you're comparing one thing with another thing, etc.,

58:38

etc., then you don't emphasize those things. And that's the situation here. You know, it's just a simple matter of reading and not saying, well, and if the dead are not being raised, then not even

58:54

Christ has been being raised or something. I mean, you know, it's a perfect tense there.

59:00

So then Christ himself has not been raised or something along those lines. There's no reason to make that kind of emphasis.

59:08

And normally, when someone dives onto something like this, it's a Harold Camping type person that's trying to come up with some new thing to give themselves something to grab folks with and get followers.

59:20

But the fact is 1 Corinthians chapter 15 has been talking about the relationship of death and life and the resurrection, the resurrection body, etc.,

59:29

etc. And Paul makes it very clear that the resurrection of the body is yet future. And hence to say, well, there's actually a resurrection of the body going on right now or something like that wouldn't make any sense.

59:43

Yeah, the argument was being put forward to support something akin to like transmigration of the soul type deal.

59:50

Oh, well, there you go. There's that, that tells you where we're going right there.

59:56

So, all right. Hey, thank you very much. Thanks, Paul. All right. All right. God bless. Bye bye. All right.

01:00:01

One more real quick here. Steve in Detroit. Hi, Steve. Good evening, Dr.

01:00:06

White. Yes, sir. We're in overtime. So it's sort of like, you know, in a football match, a soccer match, you know, at the end of the game, they've put in just a few minutes so here we go.

01:00:19

Yeah, I was recently watching a video that you did on, it was a seminar on total depravity.

01:00:27

And what I got out of it is no one can, on their own, make a decision to repent or turn to Christ.

01:00:38

They need to have the Lord's involvement in that. Yes. Now, that reminded me of someone who frequently calls in to Jesus or Muhammad on ABN.

01:00:49

I know you're well acquainted with Manu. Oh, yes. I know that every time he calls, people tell him to finally make a decision.

01:01:00

And I'm sure there's always people praying for him. But is it really his decision to make? He is responsible for that decision.

01:01:08

Yes. He must be exhorted. We are not given the information as to who God's elect are.

01:01:14

And so we can't make that decision. We can't say, well, Manu isn't, so I'm not gonna bother to tell him.

01:01:21

We are commissioned to proclaim the gospel and to proclaim the responsibility of every man and woman and child everywhere to repent.

01:01:29

Acts chapter 17, God commands men everywhere to repent. And that is what we tell people.

01:01:35

Now, personally, as I listen to Manu, and given how many times I have personally, clearly presented the gospel to him, clearly refuted him, how many times

01:01:45

I've heard Sam do that and David do that and everybody do that, it does make you, after a while, start pondering the phrase casting pearls before swine.

01:01:54

And it does make you wonder about someone who has heard the truth so many times and is hardened to it.

01:02:01

But I think it's best to err on the side of grace in this life. You don't know what he's really heard and what he hasn't.

01:02:09

And so you continue to call him to him. Now, does he have the ability in and of himself, outside the

01:02:15

Holy Spirit, bringing spiritual life to him and freeing him of his spiritual blindness to, quote -unquote, make a decision for Christ?

01:02:22

No, he will remain in love with his sin and his religious deception. Why would anyone pray for Manu if the

01:02:30

Arminian position was right? If the Arminian position is right, God's already done everything he can for Manu. In fact, look what he's done for Manu.

01:02:37

I mean, he has given him more light than almost anybody else can. But God is helpless if all he can do is work with Manu's, quote -unquote, free will.

01:02:46

But the reality is, the reason you can continue to pray for Manu is that no one's beyond the grace of God.

01:02:52

And so I do pray that Manu's eyes will be open, but I realize I cannot do that with my argumentation.

01:02:58

That is something that must come from the work of the Spirit of God, opening his heart and mind and melting that heart and mind in love for Jesus Christ.

01:03:07

All right. You got it. Okay, man, thanks a lot. Thanks for your call today.

01:03:13

And thanks to everybody else for calling the dividing line today. Thank you, Barry. You did a good job in there, you know, despite the

01:03:20

Dallas Cowboys insertion. And thanks to Steve for calling in and for everybody for listening.

01:03:27

Lord willing, we will be back next week. But I'll see everybody, all my friends down in Houston.

01:03:33

Everybody will be sweating and fanning themselves and everything else down in Houston. And then looking forward to meeting all my friends in Santa Fe, and then

01:03:41

Boulder, Colorado, and all the rest of that stuff. Pray for traveling mercies. We'll see you next week.

01:03:47

God bless. Yeah. The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega Ministries.

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If you'd like to contact us, call us at 602 -973 -4602. Or write us at P .O.

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Box 37106, Phoenix, Arizona, 85069. You can also find us on the

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World Wide Web at AOMIN .org. That's A -O -M -I -N .org. Where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books, tapes, debates, and tracks.