Crucifixion or Crucifiction?

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The following presentation is a production of Alpha and Omega Ministries Incorporated and is protected by copyright laws of the

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United States and its international treaties. Copying or distribution of this production without the expressed written permission of Alpha and Omega Ministries Incorporated is prohibited.

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Queen Aunt, Assalamualaikum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh. Welcome. Welcome. It's customary for us to normally start the event with a prayer from both the

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Christian side as well as from the Muslim side. I would like to honor

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Pastor Dennis Pillay to come forward to do the Christian renditioning and I would like to urge everyone to pay due respect, please.

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Thank you. Very good evening to all of you. Would you please bow your heads with me as we pray this time?

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Our loving Heavenly Father, we are thankful tonight for giving us this privilege of coming together and we do so tonight in the name of our

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Lord Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, our Savior, who died for our sins and rose again the third day and we bow before you knowing that his resurrection brings justification to our sinful lives and causes us today to come into your presence boldly, not on any merits of our own, but by the precious token of the shed blood of our

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Lord Jesus. We know, Lord, tonight we've come with two different religious groups and we know that your presence is most important.

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We pray for those who are participating and those who are going to preside over these meetings and those that are going to sit and listen.

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We ask you for the wonderful spirit of peace to prevail throughout our discourse and through all deliberations and dialogue, we pray that wisdom would be imparted to all of us through the learnings and through the teachings that we will derive.

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We do pray tonight that truth will prevail. At the end of the day, your name will be glorified.

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We thank you today for this privilege and ask you to bless everyone in Jesus' name.

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Amen. Thank you very much, Pastor. I would now like to call upon the

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Muslim side who will do the rendition of the Qira and I call upon Mohsin Rafiq.

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Al Rahman Al Raheem Malik Yawm Al Deen Iyyaka Na 'budu

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Wa Iyyaka Nastaeen Ihdina Al Sirata Al Mustaqeem Sirata Al Lazeena An 'amta

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Alayhim Ghayri Al Maghzoobi Alayhim Wala Al Zalleen Al Rahman Al Rahman U 'allama

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Al Qur 'ana Khalaqa Al Insaan U 'allama

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Hu Al Bayan Al Shams Wa Al Qamar Bi Husbaan Wa Al Najm Wa Al Shajar Yasjudaan Wa Al Sama 'a

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Rafa 'a Ha Wa Waza 'a Al Meezaan Al Laa Tatghaw Fi Al Meezaan Wa Aqeem Al Wazna Bil Qist Wa La Tukhsir Al Meezaan Wa Al Arza Waza 'a

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Halil Anaam Feehaa Fakihatu Wannakhlu Thatu Al Akmaan Wal Habbuz Al Asri Wal Raihaan Fa B 'ayyi

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Alaa 'i Rabbikumaa Tukazzibaan Khalaqa Al Insaan Min Salsaalin Kal Fakhaa Wa Khalaqa Al Jaan Min Maarijin Min Fa B 'ayyi

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Alaa 'i Rabbikumaa Tukazzibaan Rabbul Mashriqain Wa Rabbul Maghribain Fa B 'ayyi

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Alaa 'i Rabbikumaa Tukazzibaan Maraj Al Bahrain Yaltaqiaan Bainahumaa Barzakhun Laa Yabghiaan Fa B 'ayyi

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Alaa 'i Rabbikumaa Tukazzibaan Yakhruj Minhuma Al Lu 'lu 'u

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Wal Mawjaan Fa B 'ayyi Alaa 'i

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Rabbikumaa Tukazzibaan Walahu Al Jawari Al Munsha 'atu

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Fil Bahri Kal A 'laam Fa B 'ayyi

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Alaa 'i Rabbikumaa Tukazzibaan Sadaqallahul Azeem Thank you brother

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Hussain Rafiq Ladies and gentlemen I seek refuge in God the

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Almighty from Satan, the rejected one In the name of God Almighty the most gracious, most merciful the cherisher and sustainer of the universe

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Peace be upon all his messengers Honorable speakers guests and respected elders

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I greet you with the universal greeting of peace My name is

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Fadil Hassan and I'm indeed honored this evening to be your program director for the two leading professionals from two different continents

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One from the USA on my left and the other from the shores of South Africa on my right

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Dr. James White The Great White from the cold Atlantic will lock horns this evening with Ayub Karim the deadly dolphin from Durban in the warm Indian Ocean on your shores

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These intellectual giants in the field of comparative religion will lead evidence from each of their respective religious perspectives on the subject crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus fact or fiction

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I shall introduce them shortly but first just some important house rules for tonight's debate

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Firstly each speaker will have 35 minutes each to present their argument then we shall have a break for refreshments for about 15 minutes tea and biscuits have been arranged thereafter the first speaker will have a rebuttal for 15 minutes followed by the second speaker 15 minutes rebuttal as well during question and answer session which will last for about 30 minutes 1 minute per questioner and 2 minutes each for the debater to respond during the summation we'll allot 5 minutes each the second speaker followed by the first speaker to close finally

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I shall move the vote of thanks ladies and gentlemen I trust you will cooperate in making my task easy as the program director this evening in the same way that I remind and urge both honorable speakers to respect the decision of the program director at all times

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I would also urge them to be respectful from both sides and apply the necessary decorum that's required from both religions

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I'm ably assisted this evening by my colleague Rudolf Bosof and Rudolf is from an organization called

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ANVWRD the organization who invited Mr.

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Ayub Karim to respond to James White's challenge on this subject matter this evening welcome

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Rudolf ladies and gentlemen may I please urge you to switch off all cell phones as this would interfere with the acoustics of our video and sound recordings you'll notice that Dr.

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White is an international scholar and is probably going to post this on YouTube as well now ladies and gentlemen our first speaker this evening is the deadly dolphin from Durban Mr.

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Ayub Karim is an understudy of the late world icon Sheikh Ahmad Dirat Ayub is also the founder and president of the

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Islamic Comparative Religion Academy called ICRA here in Durban in South Africa and he is the author of an internationally distributed magazine entitled

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The Universal Challenge Dr. White may I bring to your attention that Ayub is also a didi not a doctor of divinity meaning

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Dirat's disciple ladies and gentlemen please welcome

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Ayub Karim Mr.

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Chairman Dr. White Rudolph honored guest peace be with you

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I know Dr. White said that we need to start the clock once I'm speaking but I want to make an exception here I'm going to start just now but before I do

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I would like to present this Quran to Dr. White as a gift now this is an

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Afrikaans Quran I don't know whether he understands the language but he can add this to his collection in the

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USA ok now

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I begin ladies and gentlemen tonight's subject that we are debating the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ peace be upon him fact or fiction and I would like to begin by throwing a challenge which is given to us in the

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Bible which I'm going to share with you where St. Paul in his letter to the

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Corinthian church 1 Corinthians 15 verse 14 he basically throws the gauntlet to us to the reader of the

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Bible not particularly Muslims but anyone who reads the Bible will see that this challenge is there and he says in no uncertain terms if Christ be not raised in other words if Christ is not resurrected then our preaching, then our faith is in vain and our preaching useless these are very strong terms it's like he's putting his neck on the block if Christ be not raised then our faith is in vain and our preaching is in vain that means everything that Christianity stands for is useless and when we read further on in his letter to the

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Corinthians this is in chapter 15 verse 14 and you read in verse 35 he poses another question he says but someone will ask how are the dead raised and with what body do they come naturally if Christ is going to be raised from the dead then

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I am curious enough I would like to know what does a resurrected body look like so he asks but someone will ask and I am asking how are the dead raised with what body do they come and he goes on further in the following verse and he says that it must die first before it is resurrected so what you sow must die and that which thou sow in other words in that which thou bury is not the body that will be so it must die and that which thou sow that which thou bury so in other words you are going to bury a physical body but that one that will be resurrected will definitely not be physical it will be something else and we read on further and we come to first Corinthians chapter 15 from verse 42 so he says and so it will be with the resurrection it will be the body that is sown is perishable it is raised imperishable it is sown in dishonor it is raised in honor it is sown in weakness and it is raised in glory it is sown a physical body it is raised a spiritual body he gives four categories rather three preceding categories to come to the fourth one now some bibles

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I don't know which bible Dr. White which version of bible Dr. White is using but if you are using the King James version or the

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NIV then the word that is used it is sown a natural body and it is raised a spiritual body the bible

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I frequently use is the revised standard version RSV 1971 and in that bible it reads it is sown a physical body and it is raised a spiritual body so you have the order if Christ be not raised everything within Christianity is useless with what body do they come?

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that which you sow is not the one that will be so you are sowing a physical body

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Jesus Christ was physical so if you buried him you buried him physically but when he resurrects he is not going to be physical he is going to be something else and he gives the criteria sown perishable raised unperishable sown in dishonor raised in honor sown in weakness raised in glory sown a physical body buried a physical body it will be raised a spiritual body this is what it says now in order for us to verify if these statements and this challenge how does it fare according to the words of Jesus Christ now

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I am going to go to the allegedly post resurrection era when

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Jesus Christ appears to his disciples in the upper room and Jesus Luke chapter 24 verse 36 and Jesus Christ himself appeared to his disciples in that upper room and when he appeared he greeted them in Hebrew in Islam and in English and his disciples upon seeing him were terrified they were affrighted why because they were thinking that he is a ghost version uses the word ghost standard version uses the word spirit why because they were thinking that they were seeing a spirit now these were his disciples they should have had first hand knowledge of the lord and savior their master their teacher their rabbi but when he appears to them they are terrified they are shocked and Jesus Christ asked them why are you terrified why are you frightened why do thoughts arise in your hearts why do doubts arise in your hearts now a relationship between the master and his disciples and for the disciples to behave like this my question is why were they frightened why were they terrified why did they think that he was a spirit the reason is simple because all the knowledge that they had about Jesus Christ being crucified was not first hand knowledge they were not eyewitnesses to the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ definitely they were not eyewitnesses so they heard that Jesus Christ was crucified they heard that he was resurrected but they never saw any of this so when

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Jesus Christ appears in the upper room they're terrified and Jesus Christ asked why do doubts arise in your hearts now in order to prove his case

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Jesus Christ tells his disciples behold my hands and feet and see that it is

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I myself according to the King James Version Revised Standard Version look at me and see that it is

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I myself now what I did here is that you know all of the emphasis is

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I myself he's making quite clear to them and I had to go and check the Arabic and the

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Arabic does not read anta it reads anta which means the emphasis that this is me myself nobody else and the reason why

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I checked the Arabic is because I don't know Arabic okay my knowledge of Greek is very very weak so the closest to it is to go and check where the emphasis lie and for what reason so if he said that this is

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I myself that this is myself that oh this is me there's no emphasis but he's telling them that this is

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I myself and then he goes on further because his disciples were still confused and he says handle me and see touch me and see for a spirit has no flesh and bones as you see me have ladies and gentlemen

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I ask you when a man makes that kind of statement when you think that he has died and resurrected do you think he will come and tell you handle me and see touch me and feel and he will go on to say that it is

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I myself and he will say for a spirit has no flesh and bones as you see me have is he telling you that he's a spirit or is he telling you that he's still human being in the flesh you decide but this is in the

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Bible so what Paul is saying is that Jesus Christ if he was sown physically if he was buried physical then naturally according to his claim in Corinthians chapter 15 verse 44 he was sown physical buried physically and naturally if he's resurrected he has to be spiritual but Jesus Christ denies that he says

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I am not a spirit I am still in the physical I am still and he says have you here anything to eat and they gave him a piece of a broiled fish and of a honeycomb and he did eat didn't anyone of you come anywhere written in any scripture whether it is the

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Quran the Bible anywhere that spirits would partake in a meal

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I know Dr. White might refer me to Abraham and the three messengers but generally the point

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I'm making here is that if Jesus ate when he had no reason to eat then that would be pretentious on the part of Jesus Christ and if any

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Christian believes and if Dr. White tells me that he ate for the sake of eating just to show his disciples but he did not need to eat then

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I would say that that is being pretentious so he needed to eat he was flesh and bones all the way that is the post resurrection so here

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I am producing evidence from the Bible itself to show proof and I'm leading this evidence from the

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Bible and this stands as proof that the claim that Paul makes that if Christ be not raised then our preaching that our faith is in vain and our faith is useless and I think that this is proof sufficient enough that Jesus Christ was not resurrected and if Jesus Christ is not resurrected then everything that Christianity stands for is in vain from where I stand and from what

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I read in the Bible I'm saying this with all due respect to all Christians even Dr. White I firmly believe that whatever

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Paul said over there his claim fails hopelessly and that would lead me to believe that everything that Christianity stands for whether it's the faith or the preaching is all vanity now why

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I say that there were no eyewitnesses I mean his disciples were not eyewitnesses because according to Mark chapter 14 verse 50 he tells us that the disciples of Jesus Christ in the garden of Gethsemane forsook him and fled they ran away and of course many people would say yes but Peter came in I've heard this argument before and he came into the courtyard and he was there for the trial true he was there for the trial it's in the

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Bible but then when the cock crowed three times he had already denied Jesus before that which

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Jesus has predicted or rather prophesied if you wish but then he went outside and he began wailing he was crying so when they took

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Jesus Christ to Golgotha the place of crucifixion he was not there so Peter himself was not an eyewitness to all that transpired but I don't want to belabor that point

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I want to get to the next point and you know I would ask Dr. White to please clarify this for us and he needs to tell me that if Jesus was physical then he must show cause he must lead evidence to prove that the resurrection is a physical thing and if he can prove that the resurrection is a physical thing then he basically bulldozes what

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Paul says so it's a simple case of Dr. White heads I win tails you lose now the second part of this is that if Christ was not resurrected if he was not raised then that means he did not die if he was not resurrected he did not die if he did not die he was not crucified if he was not crucified then

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I ask you what is the worthiness of your faith simple arguments nothing complicated simple

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English as it is simple in the Bible itself however we do have

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Christians I have met a few that you get Christians who would believe that Jesus Christ was crucified but not resurrected

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I think I watched one of Dr. James White's debates on his site where he debated somebody that actually didn't believe in the resurrection but I didn't watch it fully so I don't know the context and the material of the whole thing but there are

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Christians I mean I was told that you know 50 % you know of the Anglican church

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I'm talking about the hierarchy who actually reject the resurrection of Jesus Christ so let me deal with this point on the crucifixion now when we are dealing with the crucifixion

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I would like to bring in the sign of Jonah and in the sign of Jonah reference to it is the gospel according to St.

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Matthew chapter 12 and we will read from verse 38 so the scribes and the Pharisees they come to Jesus Christ and they ask master we seek a sign of thee so in other words they are telling him we want some kind of proof that you are who you claim to be some kind of mandate from God if you got a certificate from God we would like to see it if you got some kind of mandate we want to see it but they are asking for a sign they want a miracle they want

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Jesus to perform a miracle to prove that he is the Messiah that he is a man of God now look at the response that Jesus Christ give and we need to ask ourselves

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Jesus Christ was their benefactor for example he healed blind

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Bartimus at the gates of the temple he healed the woman with issues and he fed 4000 people with a few pieces of bread and fish in fact he did that twice once it was 4000 once it was 5000 as recorded in the bible these are miracles of Jesus Christ according to the gospel according to Saint John he even turned water into wine water into wine so amongst all these miracles he even raised

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Lazarus according to the bible so I am saying that with all these miracles that he has performed he did not tell the scribes and the

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Pharisees that you know blind Bartimus I gave him life you know the lady with issues for 7 years

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I healed her you know 4000 people on Mount Olive I fed them no he didn't use any of these miracles he simply told them an evil and adulterous generation seekers after a sign there shall be no sign given to it except the sign of the prophet

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Jonah except the sign of Jonah for as Jonah was 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of the fish so shall the son of man be 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth let me say that again in the heart of the earth not in a tomb there is a difference you see a greater miracle would be

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I'd say if you put somebody in the tomb and you roll the stone away and the tomb is empty

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I want to know what is miraculous about that but if you put somebody 6 feet underground and you come back and you find that everything is out and nobody is there

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I want to know what miracle is that but if the tomb is sealed and if the grave is still covered with sand and standing next to the grave or standing next to the tomb while it is sealed and Jesus Christ is standing there now

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I would tell you that that is a miracle and the reason why the stone was rolled away is because he was physically yet to walk out this is the only logical explanation if it was a spirit there is no need for the stone to be moved out but of course the counter argument is that and I don't think

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Dr. James Wright will say that is because they moved the stone so Peter and Mary could go in and witness it I say witnessing an empty tomb and witnessing

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Jesus outside while the stone I would want to know which is the greater miracle anyway coming back to the sign of Jonah now why would

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Jesus Christ choose to perform the sign of Jonah as his mandate as his proof that he is the

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Messiah an adulterous and evil generation seeketh after the sign there shall be no sign given to it except the sign of the prophet

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Jonah for as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the fish so shall the son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth that's the only sign he's giving now we ask our

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Christian friends and I'm going to ask Dr. James Wright tonight I would like to know did

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Jesus Christ fulfill that sign did he fulfill that miracle every

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Christian I meet tells me yes they fulfilled it I say show me how now in order for us to understand the sign of Jonah we have to go to the book of Jonah and I don't know whether this is true but I saw this on the internet a couple of times although Jonah is referred to a minor prophet in Christianity somebody referred to him as a one page prophet one page prophet which means that if you go in the

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Bible and you look at the book of Jonah it's simply one page one page and half way on this page and that is the book of Jonah so he was referred to as a one page prophet but in Christendom he's referred to as a minor prophet now why will the

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Messiah who is central and pivotal to Christianity that such a person would choose the miracle of a minor prophet

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I mean there were many other prophets look at David, David was king you had Solomon, Solomon was king

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Moses, Moses was king but why go and choose a prophet not that he didn't have a job to do, yes he had a job to do but I mean just a minor prophet and you're choosing that sign now in order for us to understand what

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Jesus Christ was saying we need to look at the sign of Jonah and I'm not going to go into detail because I have limited time but just to give you a summary of what

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Jonah was all about is that God Almighty commissioned Jonah to go to the city of Nineveh and ask the people to repent to repent in sackcloth and ash but Jonah thinking that he's going to a city of about a hundred thousand people and these people will not listen to me so acting presumptuously he goes to Joppa takes a ship that is going to Tarshish and he's running away from the command of God so at sea there was a storm and according to superstitious belief they believe that listen if somebody is running away from his master,

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God would send down some kind of calamity and because we are at sea there is a storm so they take him and they throw him overboard they take him and they throw him overboard now when they threw him overboard was he dead or was he alive

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Jonah when they threw him overboard was he dead or was he alive please help me out here he was alive and in the storm raging sea you expect the man to drown but he doesn't drown instead a fish swallows him up in the belly of the fish heat, suffocation lack of oxygen digestive juices whatever they may be you expect a man to die but he doesn't die because according to the

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Bible he prayed to God Almighty and I assure you dead men don't pray so in the belly of the fish he was alive and this fish goes to shore and vomits him out was he dead or was he alive he had to be alive because he went to the city of Nineveh and he gave the message of God and the people of Nineveh repented and the city of Nineveh was saved simply because when they threw him overboard he was alive when he was in the belly of the fish he was alive and when he went to the city of Nineveh he was still alive how was

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Jesus Christ when they put him onto the cross every Christian will tell you alive how was

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Jesus Christ when they brought him down from the cross and put him in the tomb every Christian will tell you he was dead the sign of Jonah for as Jonah was so shall the son of man be how was

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Jonah in the belly of the fish he was alive how was Jesus in the tomb you say he was dead is that like Jonah or is that unlike Jonah listen this is the only prophecy he's giving and the reason why he's giving that is because he knew that these

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Jews they knew the sign of Jonah Jonah was alive Jonah was alive

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Jesus was alive and then he's dead very unlike Jonah so if you believe that the prophecy is true and he fulfilled it then you have to believe that he didn't die but if you believe that he died then you are rejecting that prophecy in the

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Bible and if you are rejecting that prophecy in the Bible then you are rejecting Jesus again it's heads

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I win tails you lose now some

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Christians emphasize on the fact that it is not how he was but rather the time frame the time frame now

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I don't believe that the issue here is the time frame but if I have time I have basically 10 minutes left but if I have time

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I might as well explain this to you is that in the United States of America some years back alright

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I thank you some years back in the United States of America it was the

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Plain Truth Movement that had started this and in order to fulfill the prophecy they started researching and of course most

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Christians don't agree with them but you get Christians who believe in this and it states that Jesus Christ was not crucified on a

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Friday but he was crucified on a Wednesday so if you count from Thursday night Friday night,

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Saturday night early Sunday morning Jesus Christ was not in the tomb they had the three days and three nights because they say

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Jesus Christ said for as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the fish so shall the son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth so I say okay let us look at the calculation

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Friday night they brought him up from the cross Friday night he's supposed to be in the tomb Saturday day he's supposed to be in the tomb and I'm using the word supposed because he could have came out

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Friday night or Saturday so Friday night he's supposed to be in the tomb Saturday day he's supposed to be in the tomb

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Saturday night he's supposed to be in the tomb but early Sunday morning when Mary Magdalene goes to the tomb the stone is moved out and Jesus is not there so I want to know even if you look at the time factor how many days and how many nights because you are telling me three days and three nights but you have two nights and one day so even on that basis that prophecy is not fulfilled but however a

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Dr. Fay from the Plain Truth Movement started this concept and it has gained some momentum in the

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United States of America and a little bit in Europe nothing in South Africa is yet I don't think they've exported it to South Africa as yet but I received news of it is that they believe in a good

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Wednesday not a good Friday and if you calculate it like that now there is a lot but I just want to read this out quickly the difficulties connected with these three have arisen number one from not having noted these fixed points two from the facts of Gentiles not having been conversant with the law concerning the three great feats of the

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Lord and from not having reckoned the days as commencing some six hours before our own and running from sunset to sunset instead from midnight to midnight and it goes on to say that the first of each of these three feasts the

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Passover, the Pentecost and the Tabernacle was was the convocation that is a

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Sabbath on which no servile work was to be done and they referred us to Leviticus chapter 23 verse 7 to 24 that Sabbath and the high

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Sabbath of John 1931 was the holy convocation the first day the feast which quite overshadowed the ordinary weekly

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Sabbath this is the argument they use it was called by the

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Jews Yom Tov and this is the greeting on that day through our Jewry down to the present time the great

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Sabbath having been mistaken from the earliest times for the weekly Sabbath has led to all the confusion so in other words these people are saying that the

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Christians who now work on the weekly Sabbath and that has created all the confusion with regard to crucifixion we need to define what crucifixion is you see and I've checked the dictionary and crucifixion means by impaling by impaling on a cross either by tying or nailing to a cross but that is to put to death by impaling on the cross either by nailing or tying the person has to die on the cross for you to say that he is crucified now annually what happens in the

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Philippines we get more than 500 people in order to follow the ritual of Jesus Christ in commemoration of Jesus Christ some of them do it because of the vows that they have taken asking

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God for help and some of them thanking God for the benefits that they have received or for the favors that they have received they actually get themselves crucified and it's very easy for you to check this out just go google crucifixion in the

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Philippines and you will get it Ruben and age 53 years old has been crucified 27 times he's still living

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Ramiz Lazaro a dishwasher also been crucified Alex Laranga 59 had himself crucified every year for the past 12 years and I don't want to go on with this so when people go up to the cross and they come down alive do you have a word for it?

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Sheikh Ahmad Didat said that when a person goes up to the cross and he dies it is a crucifixion

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X -I -O -N but if a person goes up to the cross and he comes down alive then he's been crucified

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F -I -C -T -E -D all these people in the Philippines are not crucified they have been crucified

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Jesus Christ if they had put him onto the cross he was not crucified he was crucified because when he came down he was still alive he was physical he appeared to his disciples in the upper room physical he had told them that I am physical and not a spirit and even the prophecy the sign of Jonah now the question is that why would he choose the sign of Jonah many signs and he could have said to the people listen for as Moses split the

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Red Sea so shall the son of man split the Mediterranean Sea it's a great miracle but no the sign of Jonah why?

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because he was telling the Jews that listen whatever happened to Jonah the same thing is going to happen to me and I would just like to read a short note on the book that I've written why the sign of Jonah this is what

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Jesus was telling the Jews that Jonah received providence the sign of Jonah is basically related to providence

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God's help God's care this is what it means this is what

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Jesus was telling the Jews that Jonah received providence and he too will also receive providence

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Jesus was telling them you can do your worst but in the end

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I will survive just like Jonah that is why he chose the sign of Jonah because that fish saved

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Jonah and I must say tonight and I'm sorry to say this but I'm glad that I'm saying this that yes

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Jesus Christ was saved but your misinterpretation of the cross the cross was used to save him not to kill him why?

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it's his word against yours it's his word against the Christians it's his word against Dr.

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James White that he chose the sign of Jonah for a specific reason it's simple

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Jonah was saved he went to Nineveh he delivered the message Jesus Christ was saved he did not die on that cross if he was on the cross now

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I have just 2 to 3 minutes left and I just want to recap very quickly remember in the beginning what

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Paul said if Christ will not raise our preaching is in vain our faith is in vain and I have given you enough evidence to show cause that Jesus Christ did not die he was not a spirit which means he was not resurrected if he was not resurrected he did not die so all that Paul says and I'm going according to Paul that everything that Christianity stands for is fiction with regard to sign of Jonah he specifically chose the sign of Jonah because the

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Jews knew that Jonah was saved and that is why he told them for as Jonah was so shall

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I be Jonah was saved by the fish he was also saved God took care of that because remember the

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Jews he was hanging on the cross and they say you said you could save yourself let's see how you do it and you look at the prophecies that came it came in many ways there was an earthquake, there was darkness of the sun even so much so I still ask these

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Christians these questions and if Dr. White can help me out here tonight when the graves open up and the bodies from the graves came out of the graves and started walking to Jerusalem where are those bodies today?

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did they go back into the grave? what were they? resurrected bodies so all these things came to save Jesus Christ not to ensure that he died on the cross ladies and gentlemen remember what

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Paul said ladies and gentlemen remember what Jesus Christ said if Christ be not raised from the dead our preaching is vain and your faith is in vain

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Jesus Christ said the only sign I give you is the sign of Jonah Jonah was alive, we expect

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Jesus Christ to be alive so I think I've laid enough evidence to show cause that Jesus Christ was not resurrected and never died on the cross and Alhamdulillah Rabbil Alameen thank you very much

47:33

Mr. Ayyub Karim for that eloquent presentation ladies and gentlemen now

47:40

I would like to introduce the second speaker Dr. James White the great white as I said is a didi meaning a doctor of divinity he holds that is a doctorate in theology he reigns from America and is an author of many books and he is the director of Alpha and Omega Ministries in the

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USA ladies and gentlemen please welcome Dr. White will now present his case for 35 minutes alright there we go it is a pleasure to be with you all this evening it truly is this is a vitally important subject and it's great to see a full crowd here this evening and I would like to thank

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Ayyub Karim for presenting Ahmed Didat's position on this I have been looking for a long time

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I have listened to much of Ahmed Didat's teaching and I have been looking forward for a long time to be able to respond to someone who would present the same arguments there were some arguments that weren't presented but in general this was exactly what you would hear in Ahmed Didat's crucifixion or crucifixion lecture and so I'm very very happy about that.

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One of the reasons I wanted to do this is because I believe that this particular lecture is one of the primary stumbling blocks standing in the way of Christians and Muslims moving forward in their understanding of each other's faith now

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I'm going to have to say some very strong things tonight but I will back them up and I will ask you to be the judges this evening.

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I am challenging everyone in this room this evening check out what each one of us says listen to our references get the videos when they're available and check out what we say against the best that scholarship has to offer because I say this is standing in our way because this particular form of argumentation is fundamentally flawed on a scholarly level and I want to show that to you today

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I want to show why it is that to any Christian who knows church history knows the original languages of the

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Bible knows the cultural context of the New Testament, the arguments that were presented just now hold no weight whatsoever they have no possibility of being true.

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None. Let me begin with just two basic errors and then I want to go on to a positive presentation of what the

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Bible actually says these two errors undo everything that was just presented to you in 35 minutes

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Error number one instead of going to what the New Testament says about what resurrection means and what the

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Greek term for resurrection means, we had no discussion of that. We had a misunderstanding of 1

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Corinthians chapter 15 that goes against all of modern scholarship in regards to what it means natural body versus spiritual body the assumption that DDOT made and that was made this evening is that resurrection means you come out as a spirit.

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That is not what resurrection means the Greek term is anastasis anastasis means that which died coming to life again.

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That's exactly why when Paul preached resurrection on Mars Hill in Acts chapter 17 as soon as he made reference to the term anastasis the

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Greeks who were dualists stopped him in his tracks because they knew exactly what he was saying he was saying that the physical body rose from the dead they knew exactly what he meant and that's exactly what the term means.

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You can look it up in Bauer, Donker, Arndt and Gingrich the current standard Greek lexicon of Koine Greek.

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You can look it up in Loew and Nida I have all of those references with me and I will challenge Ayub Karim, show me any scholarly reference in the

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Greek language that's accepted by scholarship today that defines anastasis as being spiritual and there you go.

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You won't be able to find it. And in fact I have debated some of the leading liberal scholars in the world who have tried to present a kind of spiritual resurrection and you can go watch those debates so the first fundamental error the entire argument that Didot made was that Jesus was alive yes, he was resurrected but he had a physical body yes, that's what resurrection means and that's what every

51:54

Jew in the first century would have understood it to mean. No Jew in the first century would ever have made the argument you just heard.

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Not a one. Not a one. That's the first error. Second error is the sign of Jonah. What was the essence of the sign of Jonah?

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Three days and three nights. It wasn't a lie versus dead or anything else he was simply giving that issue of the three days and three nights.

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But it wasn't three days and three nights yes it was. The Jews counted any portion of a day as a full day.

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And so the fact of the matter is all the gospels say, including John that Jesus was crucified on Paraskewa now that is normally translated in English Bibles and one of the issues we have here this evening is that I've been asked, well what translation of the

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Bible are you going to use? I won't use a translation of the Bible. I teach both Greek and Hebrew. I read it in the original languages and the original term is

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Paraskewa and Paraskewa is normally translated as preparation.

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Preparation day. But there's a little problem it's also the formal word for Friday and all the gospels agree that Jesus was crucified on Friday before sundown because the

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Sabbath was coming on. And so you've got Friday, he's in the tomb on Saturday he rises on Sunday morning in Jewish reckoning, that's three days.

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Now you may not like Jewish reckoning you may want to argue with it you won't be able to make any sense out of the succession list and everything else in the

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Old Testament if you do, but everyone who listened to what Jesus said in his context would have understood exactly that.

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And the reality is Jesus defined what he meant by that. We didn't hear this but over and over again as we're going to see

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Jesus said to his disciples the son of man is going to go and he is going to be turned over to the leaders he is going to be scourged, he's going to be crucified, he's going to be buried and he's going to rise again.

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And he told his disciples exactly that. So once you understand what the people themselves would have understood the sign of Jonah to mean and once you understand what anastasis means the entire presentation that Achmed Didak made and it was repeated this evening collapses on just simply those facts.

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And they are facts and if you're going to say they're not facts then you need to refute them from the original languages and that's the challenge this evening.

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Now is the New Testament not clear on the crucifixion? Achmed Didak actually made it sound like and this evening

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Mr. Karim made it sound like that the New Testament writers themselves did not believe that Jesus died upon a cross and yet any meaningful reading of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul Peter and all of them they all referred to Jesus Christ as the crucified and the risen one using that term anastasis.

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Every single one of them. They all made this statement without any question. For example, let's look at Matthew.

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Matthew chapter 17 verse 22. As they were gathering in Galilee Jesus said to them the son of man is about to be delivered into the hands of men and they will kill him and he will be raised on the third day.

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Do you believe that Esau was a prophet? Was he a false prophet? Well here he says in Matthew 17 the son of man is about to be delivered into the hands of men and they will kill him and he will be raised on the third day and they were greatly distressed.

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Is that a true prophecy or false prophecy? I say it's a true prophecy. In Matthew chapter 21 verse 37.

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Finally he sent, this is in a parable this is in a parable that Jesus is telling finally he sent his son to them saying they will respect my son but when the tenants saw the son they said to themselves this is the error come let us kill him and have his inheritance and they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.

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Jesus is making the application to the Jews of what they're going to do to him and what are they going to do to him? They're going to kill him. Matthew chapter 26 when

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Jesus had finished all these sayings he said to his disciples you know that after two days the Passover is coming and the son of man will be delivered up to be what?

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Crucified. Was he a true prophet or a false prophet? I believe Jesus was a true prophet. If you're going to deny the crucifixion you're going to have to call

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Jesus a false prophet and I know why you deny the crucifixion I know surah 4157 very well but my friends think about something for a moment surah 4157 40

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Arabic words written six centuries after the days of Jesus in a different language 700 miles away would you accept without any foundation historically whatsoever someone who comes along 600 years after Muhammad and decides the barrage in the

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Israel never took place there was never any trip to heaven there was never any trip to Jerusalem there was no winged beast all of that didn't take place and when you ask him why he simply says cause

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I'm a prophet. Would you accept that? That's what you're asking us to accept that 40 Arabic words and most of you know there is no hadith commentary on surah 4157 nothing and so on the basis of 40

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Arabic words we're supposed to overthrow everything the new testament says and every single historical fact concerning the crucifixion of Jesus Christ there is no question whatsoever in the minds of even the most radical skeptics that Jesus Christ was crucified so I know why you don't accept these things but I ask you do you really have a consistent basis for doing so?

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I go back to the testimony of the Injil itself that we are told that we are to follow in how about we looked at Matthew and we see that he was to be crucified and killed how about Mark they went on from there and passed through Galilee and he did not want anyone to know for he was teaching his disciples saying to them the son of man is going to be delivered to the hands of men and they will kill him and when he is killed after three days he will rise but they did not understand the saying and were afraid to ask how about Mark chapter 10 saying see we are going to Jerusalem the son of man will be delivered over the chief priests and the scribes and they will condemn him to death and deliver him over to the gentiles and they will mock him and spit on him and flog him and kill him and after three days he will rise those are the words of Jesus was he telling the truth or was he not telling the truth

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Mark chapter 15 verse 24 and they crucified him and divided his garments among them casting lots for them to decide what each should take and it was the third hour when they crucified him by the way the only difference the only reason there is a difference between the hours in Matthew Mark and Luke and John is because Matthew Mark and Luke are using

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Jewish timing which begins at sunrise John is using Roman timing because he is writing later and Jerusalem has been destroyed by then and so he uses

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Roman timing which begins at midnight if you take that correction into consideration they all say the same thing there is no contradiction you see folks even scales the

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Quran says we are to use even scales right that means you need to apply the same standards in looking at my scriptures that you use in looking at your own you allow the

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Quran to define its own terms you will not take one section ignore another section don't do that to the

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New Testament don't ignore everything the New Testament says here now we see Matthew intended to communicate that Jesus was going to die

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Mark intended to indicate that Jesus was going to be died he was going to be crucified and he says in Mark 15 37 and Jesus uttered a loud cry and breathed his last that means to die not to swoon nobody who would ever read that in the original language would go oh he's not dead no he died and it's interesting in Mark chapter 15

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Pilate was surprised to hear that he should already have died why? well that was pretty quick folks the

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Bible says Jesus gave his life he had control of this situation he said no one takes my life from me

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I give it of my own accord he breathed his last he gave his life and he determined when he was going to die and that's exactly what he did and if you sit before me today thinking that the moon can be split and that prophets can fly on little beasts to Jerusalem you can't look at me and say that Jesus couldn't do that because we're all supernaturalists in this room we all believe

01:00:05

God has that kind of power even scales even scales Mark chapter 16 this wasn't presented this evening

01:00:15

I'd like to ask Job Karim if he accepts Dedat's argument on this but when the

01:00:21

Sabbath was passed Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Salome bought spices so that they might go and anoint him and in the crucifixion or crucifixion presentation

01:00:32

Dedat said that meant to massage I've always been shocked by that the

01:00:38

Greek word means to anoint it never means massage and I would challenge anyone to show me any place in all of ancient literature where Dedat was right he speaks the

01:00:47

Hebrew word how does he know what the Hebrew word was that Mark was supposed to Mark was written in Greek it wasn't written in Hebrew and the

01:00:54

Hebrew term is Mashiach which means to anoint not to massage it's an error on every possible level and he repeated it over and over and over again

01:01:04

I'd like to know if Job Karim would make that same assertion that Mary had seen signs of life and was going to massage the body of Jesus after he's had no water and been in a cold dark tomb for three days how about we've seen

01:01:19

Matthew we've seen Mark how about Luke for he will be delivered over the Gentiles will be mocked and shamefully treated and spit upon and after flogging him they will kill him and on the third day he will rise but they understood none of these things there you've got the prophecy of Jesus again in Luke chapter 23 and when they came to the place that is called the skull there they crucified him and the criminals one on his right hand and one on his left they crucified him

01:01:40

Luke 23 46 and Jesus calling out loud voice father into your hands I commit my spirit and having said this he breathed his last and again you show me anywhere where that language in the first century met anything other than die give me some scholarship give me something serious if I make an assertion if I say that a phrase in the

01:01:59

Quran had such and such a meaning it's up to me to provide a foundation for that same thing here even scales

01:02:10

Luke 24 Luke 24 7 the son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men and be crucified and on the third day rise

01:02:18

John then adds to this John chapter 19 so they took Jesus and he went out bearing his own cross to the place called the place of the skull which in Aramaic is called

01:02:25

Golgotha there they crucified him and with him two others one on either side and Jesus between them

01:02:30

Pilate also wrote an inscription and put it on the cross and read Jesus of Nazareth king of the

01:02:35

Jews John 19 30 when Jesus received the sour wine he said it is finished and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit that means he died

01:02:47

John 19 32 so the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first and of the other who had been crucified with him but when they came to Jesus and saw that he was already dead they did not break his legs now the argument is frequently made well that's the mistake that was the mistake that the

01:03:01

Jews referred to when they said the second mistake would be greater than the first no it is not the first mistake that the

01:03:07

Jews referred to was the acceptance of the idea that Jesus was a prophet or the Messiah the second would be to allow his body to be taken away so that it could be said that he was resurrected that is what the scripture is talking about has nothing to do with this these individuals who determined he was dead remember in Mark we are told that it was a centurion

01:03:29

Pilate inquired of a centurion as to whether Jesus was dead centurions were experts at death they knew a dead man and how to make somebody dead and so you have a centurion certifying and remember if he is wrong and Jesus wasn't dead it is the centurion who dies so he is going to make sure of these things and so he certifies to Pilate that Jesus is dead and here in John 19 they see but when they came to Jesus and saw that he was already dead they did not break his legs very clear

01:04:10

John chapter 19 so they took the body of Jesus and bound it in linen cloth with the spices do you have any idea the damage that is done to the physical body by taking it off of a cross it is bad enough to put it on think about what it is like to take it off do you really think someone who is swooned is not going to respond to be taken off a cross and the pain of wrapping the body so they took the body of Jesus and bound it in linen cloth with the spices as is the burial custom of the

01:04:42

Jews now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden and in the garden a new tomb in which no one had yet been laid so because the

01:04:48

Jewish day of preparation since the tomb was close at hand they laid Jesus there my friends no one can possibly fairly read

01:05:00

Matthew Mark Luke and John without coming to the conclusion that each one of those authors fully and completely intended to communicate to their audiences that Jesus Christ was crucified you cannot read them in any other way it is impossible you have to isolate one little phrase here one little phrase there connect these things together and then throw everything out

01:05:31

I would be embarrassed to deal with the Quran in that way and yet that's exactly what

01:05:37

Ahmed did with the New Testament exactly and so my friends the

01:05:45

Quran commands you to use beautiful arguments in dealing with the people of the book

01:05:52

I would not consider it a beautiful argument for someone to come along and to try to take the words of the

01:06:00

Quran and string them together so that the claim of the author of the

01:06:06

Quran is exactly opposite of what it obviously is if someone came along and tried to string together a phrase here and a phrase there to make it sound like the author of the

01:06:16

Quran was actually telling us to worship multiple gods wouldn't it be rather obvious that they were misrepresenting the

01:06:23

Quran and the author of the Quran and so when it is the absolutely unquestionable intention of the authors of Matthew, Mark, Luke John, we haven't even gotten to Paul and everything else yet, to communicate to us that Jesus Christ was crucified that he was dead, buried and then resurrected that which died coming to life again that's what anastasis means how then can we even begin to countenance an argument that would say well no actually they're telling us that Jesus didn't die that Mary was going to massage the body none of this has any basis in the text whatsoever, none now when you think of surah 4, 157 and its claims and this is the, let's be honest, this is the only reason you sit here this evening as a

01:07:19

Muslim denying the crucifixion, if you, think about it if you didn't have surah 4, 157 and you read surah 355 and you read surah 1933 and the standard translation of the

01:07:32

Arabic there is to die, talks about the death of Jesus, if you didn't have surah 4, 157 we wouldn't be here this evening because the only people who ever denied the physical crucifixion of Jesus for the first 300 years of Christian history were people called

01:07:52

Gnostics you do not want to be on the same side as the Gnostics the

01:07:58

Gnostics are not your friends the Gnostics denied the crucifixion of Jesus because they were dualists and they believed that anything physical is evil and anything spiritual is good, so since Jesus was a good guy then he could not have had a physical body, so they denied that Jesus even had a physical body, you believe he did have a physical body they also believed that the creator of this world was an evil demiurge an evil god, which means they believed that Yahweh was an evil god or in your theology that it was said that Allah is an evil god, that's why

01:08:30

I said you do not want to be on the side of the Gnostics, they're not your friends, but they denied the crucifixion for a simple reason,

01:08:37

Jesus couldn't have a physical body and it's very hard to crucify a spirit and so they're the only people every source other than the

01:08:48

Gnostics, secular Christian, Jewish every source that even makes reference to this affirms the crucifixion, it's so clear and so compelling that even the unbelievers know that Jesus was crucified, let me give you two quotes, one fellow that I've debated myself this fellow by the name of Bart Ehrman and he's probably the leading

01:09:08

English speaking critic of New Testament Christianity today in the world, he's an apostate he used to be a

01:09:16

Christian and now he's a, he calls himself a happy agnostic but I'll be perfectly honest with you, I've met him he is an agnostic but he didn't seem very happy and so even he has said these words one of the most certain facts of history is that Jesus was crucified on orders of the

01:09:34

Roman prefect of Judea Pontius Pilate he's a hyper skeptical critic and he says one of the most certain facts of history is that Jesus was crucified on orders, the

01:09:45

Roman prefect of Judea Pontius Pilate, another man that I have debated, John Dominic Croson a brilliant man a raving heretic but a brilliant man and I've told him he's my favorite heretic he doesn't really believe that there is a personal

01:10:02

God, he doesn't really believe in afterlife, he's a former Roman Catholic monk but he's considered one of the leading historical

01:10:08

Jesus scholars in the world today and here's what he said that he was crucified is as sure as anything historical can ever be that he was crucified is as sure as anything historical can ever be so if the most amazing critics will say you know the one thing we know for certain is the crucifixion so you've got them you have the

01:10:38

Christian sources, you have secular sources like Tacitus so on and so forth, you have the only denials are people on a religious basis who aren't really concerned about history anyways, they're more concerned about their religious rituals and then 600 years later you have 40

01:10:57

Arabic words about which you as Muslims know nothing in regards to their revelation, their background, there's no

01:11:04

Hadith commentary on it and that's a solid basis for me to abandon everything history says, everything that I have from the first century and by the way from eyewitnesses

01:11:18

I am I really would like to point something out my friends

01:11:25

John 1926 John was an eyewitness you have to call him a liar but according to John 1926,

01:11:35

John was there and I don't know how many times I heard DDot debate and speak on this, never talked about it why not because he was an eyewitness they all fled but they didn't stay fled

01:11:49

Peter was there, not at the cross but at the trial and John was there and in fact

01:11:55

Jesus from the cross entrusts his mother Mary to John's care in John chapter 19 that makes him an eyewitness and he's the first one to run to the tomb we do have eyewitness testimony don't we and that comes from the first century and so can you give me a reason other than just simply saying well we believe it, can you give me a reason why everything from the first century, everything from the second century, everything from the third century other than some weird

01:12:23

Gnostic people who think whoever created this world is evil said the same thing and then you tell me 600 years later someone comes along in a different language who was never in Jerusalem at least not physically that we know of and was not there at the time of the crucifixion of Jesus and he writes 40

01:12:41

Arabic words, never explains them no one for 250 years after Mohammed could remember a single word he ever said about these 40

01:12:50

Arabic words and I'm supposed to abandon everything that history and the first century writers in the

01:12:57

Injil itself, the Injil which is described as being sent down by a law containing light and guidance,

01:13:03

I'm supposed to ignore all that that's what we're being asked this evening as I said last evening in the debate and as I will say again this evening we must have equal scales if you apply to the new testament the standards of interpretation and fairness that you will rightly demand

01:13:26

I use in reading the Quran you will never substantiate surah 4, 1 -7 you can't do it so that's a question you're going to have to answer

01:13:39

I don't expect you to go well that's it, he must be right but I do expect you to think and to consider it and to ask yourself the question if you were in my shoes would you find that a compelling argument?

01:13:55

the argument that was presented this evening did not understand Anastasis did not understand the sign of Jonah, did not understand

01:14:03

Paraskewa and is wrong in each one of those things and those are the foundation wash them away and there was no argument made this evening, there really wasn't so how do we move forward from here?

01:14:18

my suggestion quite honestly is that we think about these things

01:14:26

A, when you read the new testament and I would invite you to do so,

01:14:31

I've read the Quran many times I think it's important for my people to hear what your book says to us but the reality is most

01:14:41

Christians have never read the Quran and most Muslims I know have never read the Bible read the gospel of Luke read

01:14:49

Jesus' interaction with his disciples after the resurrection how he points them to the scriptures how he has to open their minds to understand the scriptures the reality of the resurrection

01:15:00

I know the argument is, he was alive he was alive, yes, when you are resurrected you are alive and you eat fish and you can walk with people and all those things but the resurrected body is a glorified body, it is not a corruptible body any longer that's

01:15:18

Paul's point and so read what Luke says and read about how the resurrection is something that the spirit opens our hearts and minds to even understand and to be able to grasp and then ask yourself a question does my religion teach me that there is a spiritual realm that requires spiritual enlightenment and we both know the answer to that Allah guides who he wills, does he not?

01:15:45

are you being consistent to demand naturalistic answers from Christians when you yourselves are supernaturalists when you believe in the miraculous are you being consistent and then in light of that, how can we move forward my suggestion to you is this until this kind of argumentation is abandoned and no longer used you will not be showing beautiful words, beautiful arguments to the

01:16:20

Alal Kitab just as I have often rebuked

01:16:25

Christians who have presented less than meaningful argumentation against Islam and I see it all the time,

01:16:34

I mean I've taken heat today because I dared to be kind and to have meaningful interaction with brother

01:16:43

Yusuf this male in the back of this room there are Christians that think

01:16:48

I'm compromising because I didn't call him names and I didn't treat him with disrespect last evening because it's quite obvious I like him and I pray for him and I don't want

01:17:04

God's curse upon him, I want God's blessing upon him and every Muslim in this room,

01:17:09

I take heat from my own community for that and I would imagine it probably goes the other direction too there are people in both of our communities, they don't want communication, they don't want us to understand each other for a lot of Muslims I'm just a cougher don't listen to him doesn't matter how often he's read the

01:17:28

Quran, doesn't matter whether he's read the Hadith, doesn't matter whether he tries to understand what we believe, ignore him

01:17:33

I know those voices they're on my side too I blocked someone from Facebook this morning because I posted a picture and one of their comments was, because it was in the mosque one of their comments said, synagogue of Satan, they're all reprobates

01:17:50

I rebuked the person and blocked them. Okay, we've got hotheads on both sides, my question is, where are you?

01:18:00

Where are you? Do you hear the Quran's command to give beautiful words? Do you agree with me that Al -Haq one of the beautiful names that the

01:18:09

Bible itself uses of God is important and that we need to know the truth God's truth, but you know what?

01:18:15

You need to know the truth about people even when you disagree with them even when you disagree with them we have no right to misrepresent those even if we feel that they're wrong, not if we're people of truth and so my suggestion to you is this line of argumentation which completely misrepresents the text of New Testament must be abandoned if we are going to move forward.

01:18:42

If we're always just back here on the basic level stuff trying to go, I'm sorry but you don't seem to understand what resurrection is, resurrection is that which died coming to life again and so the resurrection was physical and so all the physical stuff

01:18:54

Jesus does after the cross means he was resurrected, that's how everybody understood it in the first century if we have to keep going back over that again and again and again how are we going to advance this discussion?

01:19:06

And folks if we don't advance this discussion, who's going to? If we remain in ignorance about each other's faith two communities that cannot argue knowledgeably and respectfully, the only thing they've got left is to fight and haven't we seen enough of what that brings in our world already?

01:19:27

And so I say to you when we address these issues and you may disagree, last night you said you didn't handle

01:19:36

Surah 5, 47 correctly but we discussed it we were able to talk about it, go to the text this kind of argumentation is simply so far removed from the obvious intention of the

01:19:52

New Testament writers that it needs to be abandoned it doesn't matter how popular someone might be who presents it if we're going to move forward that's the only way we're going to be able to do it

01:20:05

I've come across the entire globe, halfway around the world, I've got a long trip tomorrow and I've come here because I care about God's truth,

01:20:16

I care about the gospel of Jesus Christ, I am his servant my life is in his hand to use as he wishes but even your own

01:20:24

Quran says that in the heart of the followers of Jesus, God has placed compassion, does it not say that?

01:20:32

and I can assure you I speak to you with compassion I speak to you because I care about you and I want you to know what

01:20:43

I believe and I can trust the spirit of my God with the truth from that point forward

01:20:51

I respect you I love you, I care for you as well as for you

01:20:56

Ayub Karim and I want our discussion this evening to be marked by respect because of that and I'm not trying to be disrespectful to anyone but saying we need to stop using bad argumentation when it has been proven to be very bad and so unless in the next period

01:21:14

Mr. Karim can provide some pretty heavy duty substantiation for what anastasis is supposed to mean, the original language and how the

01:21:24

Jews kept time and all these passages that I have read then

01:21:29

I would say we need to abandon this form of argumentation and move forward in a more meaningful way to discuss what is surah 4157 about, what does it really mean how can we understand it within any meaningful view of history that's something we need to discuss and maybe in my rebuttal time

01:21:46

I can discuss what some of those options have been that some people have taken, unfortunately it's not the majority

01:21:53

Muslim view, but some people have taken it maybe we'll have the opportunity to discuss that we'll see now in how

01:21:58

Mr. Karim responds, thank you very much for your attention this evening ladies and gentlemen our next segment is the rebuttal we're into the rebuttal session, each speaker will have 15 minutes and I'm now going to call upon brother

01:22:21

Ayub Karim to proceed immediately, thank you testing, testing 1, 2

01:22:27

Dr. White, can you hear me? alright thank you Dr.

01:22:33

White said he can hear you, but he doesn't want to listen to you Mr. Chairman, can

01:22:43

I begin? Bismillahirrahmanirrahim Bismillahirrahmanirrahim ladies and gentlemen

01:22:52

I have a difficult task in front of me that I need to rebuttal Dr.

01:22:58

James White but the difficulty lies not in the content, but in the quantity that I have to deal with and I would like to begin by rectifying the concept of the resurrection and I think the only person will be able to rectify what a resurrected body looks like I don't think it'll be me,

01:23:26

Dr. James White or even St. Paul I think the ideal person we need to ask is

01:23:32

Jesus Christ peace be upon him so, like how the scribes and Pharisees went well actually it was

01:23:43

Sadducees they didn't believe in resurrection, so they approached Jesus Christ according to Luke chapter 22 they came to Jesus Christ and they were asking

01:24:00

Jesus Christ listen, there was this one Jewish person and I'm summarizing because I have limited time there was this

01:24:12

Jewish person and he married a certain woman but then he died and according to Jewish custom is that if he didn't have any children, so the next brother will marry that woman and the children that she will bear will take the elder brother's name and it so happened in this case the first brother died the second one married her and he died and then the third one married her and then he died and the fourth one married her and then he died and it carried on like that with seven brothers until they all died and ultimately she died

01:24:45

I don't know if she killed them all but they died according to Jesus Christ you know if you were listening to Bala in Peru then you would say, no probably she gave the mushroom curry ok, but so they come to Jesus Christ and he says master, at resurrection whose wife will she be because at resurrection everybody will get up and the first brother will say this is my wife and the second one will say my wife and they all will fight for her as she being each one's wife so at resurrection, whose wife will she be and Jesus Christ answers and he says that at resurrection they neither marry nor are given into marriage for they are resurrected like unto the angels

01:25:36

Mark uses the word angelized, angels are not physical angels are not physical so the resurrection of Jesus Christ definitely could not have been physical it had to be spiritual but Jesus Christ was physical so that means he was not resurrected he was not spiritualized, not angelized he was not like unto the angels but here's a twist in the argument here's a twist in the argument and I would like Dr.

01:26:05

James White to correct me if I'm wrong you see, according to John 20 verse 15, there's a dialogue between Mary and Jesus and Jesus sees

01:26:14

Mary Magdalene and says Mary, why weepest thou whom seekest thou and she, turning around, sees

01:26:26

Jesus Christ but she doesn't know he's Jesus Christ and she according to the

01:26:32

Bible she sees him and she supposes that he is the gardener, she thinks that he is the gardener, now two questions

01:26:42

I have for Dr. White, number one is that she's looking at Jesus Christ after the resurrection at the empty tomb nearby there, but she sees

01:26:50

Jesus Christ, she doesn't know it is Jesus Christ and she thinks that he is the gardener now

01:26:59

I want to know why will she think that the person she's looking at is the gardener and if he's resurrected and later on he identifies himself as Jesus then

01:27:11

I want to know do resurrected bodies look like gardeners I'm not saying this it's in the

01:27:19

Bible do resurrected bodies look like gardeners, that when I will be resurrected, my dear friend

01:27:25

Fadhil Dr. James White and Rudolph and all of you would be resurrected as gardeners evidence in the

01:27:32

Bible she supposed he was the gardener this man you claim was resurrected so why is he looking like the gardener, according to Jesus Christ they are angelized they are like unto the angels he's supposed to be a spirit but here is he there looking like a gardener and then in the upper room handle me and see physical somebody getting tired in the audience, ok let me lighten things up for you now what happens is this

01:28:06

Dr. White is talking about standards and very quickly there was this debate between a

01:28:12

Pope and a Rabbi and they need to maintain even standards although I don't find it here but we'll let's try and see how this standard works so the

01:28:23

Pope didn't want the Jewish people to live in the Vatican city so he wanted them to go and they said they won't go, so they said ok we will have a debate a dialogue, call it whatever you want and the one that wins will go,

01:28:34

I mean the one that wins will stay and the one that lose must go so they arranged a date, the Pope was there but they decided to have it privately so the

01:28:42

Pope starts his debate by doing this and the Jewish person, he looks at that and he points down to the ground and the

01:28:50

Pope goes like this and the Jewish guy goes like this and then the

01:28:55

Pope breaks bread takes Holy Communion and the

01:29:00

Rabbi takes out his takes out an apple from his bag and eats it and the Pope walked away, in the secretariat of the

01:29:09

Pope his people are asking him what happened, what happened so he said you know he knocked me point for point so he said what happened so he said

01:29:18

I said God is everywhere and he told me God is right here I said

01:29:23

God is the Trinity and he said no way God is one and in good faith

01:29:29

I took Holy Communion they asked well then what, he said he took an apple to show the sin in every man, meantime in the camp of the

01:29:39

Rabbi they are asking the Rabbi what happened, so he said listen he told me you all got to go and I said not one of us is leaving here, he said you have three days, he says no one is leaving, he says then what he broke for lunch so I started eating mine now when we talk about the resurrection it's a difficult situation

01:30:07

I understand for Christians is that if Jesus Christ is telling you that they are angelized then I would rather believe

01:30:12

Jesus Christ so he was physical he was looking at the gardener and you need to tell me why he looked like a gardener with regard to three days and three nights

01:30:21

I don't think I need to belabor this point, I will leave that for a future debate between those who celebrate

01:30:27

Good Friday and those who celebrate Good Wednesday, the day you'll have that sorted out then come and talk to us

01:30:32

Muslims, in the meantime you sort it out listen to Jesus Christ in the context, you see telling us that he went to Sanhedrin telling us that he was beaten telling us that he had to carry his cross but then they gave it to Simon of Cyrene and telling us that they hung him on the cross and telling us that he died, all that is good you are telling me a story please lead evidence to prove such a case this is my simple request lead the evidence, prove to me that he died, don't tell me he died, now while Christians say that he was crucified,

01:31:19

I have here a few references from the Bible Acts chapter 5 verse 29 to 30

01:31:26

Jesus Christ was hung, was killed by hanging on a tree not a cross, Acts chapter 10 verse 39, they killed him by hanging him on a tree,

01:31:35

Acts chapter 13 verse 29, they took him down from the tree Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, he was hung on the tree so you have another dilemma which you need to sort out the gospels are telling you cross the book of Acts also written by Luke and he is telling you tree, so you have a contradiction within yourself please sort that out and then we can discuss it further, was it cross, was it tree, but now here is the third twist to it, the

01:32:05

Jehovah's Witness they say he was neither crucified he was not even put on a tree, they say he was put on a stake a straight forward poll and while Christians believe that Jesus Christ was like this on the cross

01:32:16

Jehovah's Witness say he was like this on the cross I mean on the stake so between the cross the tree and the stake it's a serious

01:32:25

Christian dilemma which I don't have to deal with, I have my faith secure in what the

01:32:30

Quran tells me this is something Christian scholars need to sort out now with regard to him being dead,

01:32:43

I wrote on so many points I just got to work with it with regard to him being dead the most the

01:32:55

Bible can tell us is that they received confirmation from a single centurion a

01:33:04

Roman God that he was dead, other than that you have no other proof but what creates the doubt is that only

01:33:14

Mark the other three gospel writers don't say anything about this, it is only Mark who says and Pilate marveled that he died so soon on the cross

01:33:23

I mean here's it, in the Philippines the average time spent on the cross is six hours which means that a guy could have spent one hour on the cross he could have spent twelve hours on the cross and he still comes down alive so Pilate marveled that Jesus Christ was already dead because he's governor and he actually ordered many executions by crucifixion and he knows that it takes a pretty long time for somebody to die on the cross the cross is meant to make you suffer it's lingering suffering, but your death does not come as soon as what people say that Jesus Christ died to me it's a near impossibility it just can't happen so Pilate being the governor, he wonders if Jesus Christ was dead, so what was the standard to verify the death in those days, you just see somebody dead and he's dead

01:34:20

I don't think so now just because they said he's dead, doesn't mean he's dead

01:34:30

Pilate marveled that he died so soon and then Mark chapter 9 verse 26 the spirit shrieked convulsed him violently and came out, the boy looked so much like a corpse the boy looked so much like a corpse the people said he's dead so they said he's dead, but was he dead no he was not dead the guards were so afraid, this is about the tomb

01:34:56

Matthew chapter 28 verse 4 the guards were so afraid of him that they shook and became like dead men, they became like dead men, but were they dead, no they were not dead, but here's the one that clinches the deal for me

01:35:14

Acts chapter 14 verse 19 they stoned Paul our famous Saint Paul, they stoned him and they dragged him outside the city thinking he was dead can you see

01:35:31

I mean, they didn't have medical practices in those days to take a pulse and see whether he was still living, they didn't understand that concept, they would wait a period of time and if the person is dead, he's dead and they would bury him, but then there was a very good chance, they knew that the person is not dead, but for whatever reason they couldn't understand it, but then in a case like Paul, thinking he was dead, they dragged him to the gates and they left him there, and what happened to Saint Paul when the crowd dispersed his disciples came, he got up and he walked away so if the chances are that the corpse, the boy they thought he was dead, he was not dead the guards they looked like dead, but they were not dead,

01:36:12

Paul they thought he was dead, but he was not dead this centurion, he saw that Jesus Christ was dead, yes he saw but there was no way to verify it so there is precedent in the bible many cases where they would think a person is dead, but he's not dead and the same principle applies here why the sign of Jonah is because this was a method of God Almighty to save him, when

01:36:34

Jonah was swallowed by the fish, everybody on the ship thought Jonah is dead so now he's on the cross and he comes down and everybody thinking that Jesus Christ is dead applied the principle of the sign of Jonah, he has to be alive he has to be alive he has to be alive

01:37:03

Jesus Christ was not a willing person to go on to the cross

01:37:11

Hebrews chapter 5 verse 7 yes Dr. White, I'm quoting this he in the days of his flesh cried to God Almighty prayed to God Almighty with loud cries and fervent prayers to the one that was able to save him from death and God heard his prayers, what does

01:37:32

God mean by God heard? Is God deaf at any time? God is hearing all the time and Abraham prayed for a son and God heard his prayers and Ishmael was born which means

01:37:42

God accepted and Zechariah in his old age prayed for a son and God heard his prayers and John the

01:37:49

Baptist was born so heard in this term means accepted, so God accepted the praise of Jesus Christ and he was definitely saved

01:37:58

Jazakallah Thank you very much Mr. Karim Ladies and gentlemen without much further ado, can

01:38:09

I please call Dr. White to present his 15 minutes of rebuttal time

01:38:17

Alright, let's listen very carefully to what has been said, I wish to go through a number of statements that have been presented and once again focus our attention on the facts of the issue.

01:38:29

It has been said this evening that all the knowledge that the disciples had of the crucifixion was second hand, that has been shown to be false in light of John chapter 19 verse 26

01:38:39

It has been said that the sign of Jonah was the only prophecy that Jesus gave that is untrue, we have read a number of times when

01:38:46

Jesus prophesied aside from the sign of Jonah to his disciples that he was going to go to Jerusalem, be betrayed into the hands of the chief priest, that he was going to be scourged, he was going to be crucified he was going to be buried, and he was going to rise again on the third day so we have seen that the statement that this was the only prophecy he gave is untrue then we have had the story about the folks in the

01:39:08

Philippines, folks, none of those people are ever crucified as Jesus was, they don't intend to die, they were not scourged, they were not whipped they did not have a crown of thorns, and they did not have a sword thrust into their sides, into the pericardium of their heart there is a vast difference between a full crucifixion and a partial crucifixion

01:39:32

Jesus experienced the totality, and the Roman centurion knew it and history tells us that of the tens and hundreds of thousands of crucifixions that took place on the

01:39:44

Romans, and by the way, the Quran mentions the Egyptians crucifying people history says they never did that that's a question you might want to look into in regards to your own scriptures, but in regards to all the records that the

01:39:57

Romans ever kept of all those crucifixions there is one story where the Jewish historian

01:40:03

Josephus was returning to a city, he saw three of his friends who had been crucified

01:40:10

I think earlier that day, he went to the governor since he had a poll with the

01:40:16

Romans, they were taken down and even with the best Roman care that they had, now they had not received the death blow so they had partial crucifixions only one survived, the other two died, because again, removing a body from the cross actually probably causes more trauma than leaving it on the cross does, and so you have, what you're being asked tonight is to become a hyper skeptic oh yeah, sure

01:40:41

Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John all say he died, but we don't really know who dies really, that's how you look at history, is centurions said he died, the authors said he died, that's what they're communicating and every bit of information we have from history says he died but, who knows we accept 40

01:41:01

Arabic words and 600 years later, it overthrows all of that, where's the even scales, do you interpret the

01:41:06

Quran that way do you allow people to come along and interpret the Quran the way that you are now interpreting our scriptures,

01:41:12

I don't believe that you do we were asked about Matthew's resurrected saints where did they go, well, they obviously died, there was only a certain number of them they had to have died fairly recently because they were known to the people in Jerusalem so,

01:41:26

I don't see an issue, sounds like we have a rattlesnake in the room someplace oh, that's from outside, ooh, somebody needs to tell him he needs a tune up alright,

01:41:37

I was concerned about that then, in just the last few moments, Matthew chapter 22 he said

01:41:45

Luke chapter 22, it's Matthew chapter 22, Jesus and the Sadducees and the woman married to the seven, it was the

01:41:52

Leveret Law and it was about the nature of the resurrection we were told that Mark uses the term angelized

01:41:59

I would like to challenge Mr. Ayyub Karim to show us the Greek term angelized, there is no such term, there is no such term in the original language,

01:42:07

I've got the Greek New Testament right here if you'd like me, I'll give it to you and you show me the term angelized it doesn't exist,

01:42:13

I heard DDot say it he was wrong, he never read Greek he made numerous errors in Greek there is no angelized the phrase is ὁς ἄγγλοι ἐν τῷς οὐρανοῖς as angels not angelized, there's no verb there and you say, oh, angels are all spirits, well, they are ministering spirits but ask ask someone who wrestled with an angel in the

01:42:39

Old Testament whether they can have physical form, ask the two angels that appeared with Yahweh in Genesis 18 and 19 they sat down outside of the tent by the

01:42:51

Oaks of Mamre with Abraham and what did they do? They ate food that was prepared by Sarah, remember that?

01:42:59

Huh, the point of Jesus' statement is not to talk about the body every

01:43:06

Jewish person look, just look at what the Jews believed in the first century about the resurrection, just look you will find out

01:43:12

I'm not deceiving you the term anastasis has a specific meaning that would have been understood by the people and no one of them would have understood either

01:43:22

Matthew chapter 22 or Mark chapter 12 in the way it was just presented to you, they understood the resurrection, there's that which died coming to life again, that's why

01:43:31

Jesus could say to Mary and Martha I am the resurrection of life and one of the answers is oh yes I know he's going to rise in the resurrection at the end of days and Jesus goes actually it's going to be a little earlier than that,

01:43:43

I'm the first fruit of the resurrection, I am the resurrection of life but they all understood what resurrection was and Jesus was not disputing about the nature of the resurrection body, what he was saying was the whole basis of the argumentation that they had was flawed that this issue of well who's she going to be married to those human relationships are transcended by the resurrected state that's all

01:44:08

Jesus was saying so you're missing that point, there is no term angelized and if you think there is

01:44:13

I would like to challenge you to do that next you have the issue of the mistaking of Jesus for the gardener just read the text, what does

01:44:23

John tell us she was crying she doesn't expect to find Jesus she thinks she's been moved and so she's weeping and you're in a garden and someone says why are you weeping, who do you think it might be, it might be a gardener there's no difficulty there it has nothing to do with disguise,

01:44:44

D -Dot used to say Jesus was in disguise, there's no reference to disguise anywhere in the bible it's all fantasy, it's just not there prove to me that he died we just said prove to me that he died prove to me

01:44:58

Muhammad rode a winged beast to Jerusalem, right now show me I will not accept anything but a videotape well

01:45:07

I'll take a digital version videotape can't do it can you there you go and that's exactly what

01:45:16

I say if you believe in revelation that challenge makes no sense the real question is what did the writers of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John intend to communicate to us that Jesus died and was resurrected that his body rose from the dead, he showed

01:45:36

Thomas the signs of the wounds that was their intention that's what they intended you're reading something into them that they never intended and so if the question is what a naturalist would say is well give me forensic evidence from a medical, transport a medical person back in time or something like that that is not a meaningful challenge to an ancient text yours or mine yours or mine what about the cross versus the tree well the quotation in regards to the tree goes back to Deuteronomy and a cross is made out of wood and you hang people on a cross, you hang people on a tree you sometimes hang them differently

01:46:18

I mean you can hang from the neck or you can have crucifixion but they're both talking about the same thing and since Luke wrote both of them why do you assume

01:46:25

Luke's contradicting himself do you interpret Muhammad as contradicting himself do you start off with that assumption or when you look at the different versions of the fall of Iblis and they're not the same and you look at the different versions of what happens with Lot in the

01:46:40

Quran they're not the same the words aren't the same, they're not in the same order they say different things, some say this, some say that do you just automatically assume contradiction,

01:46:49

I'm going to become an agnostic no, you don't you fairly allow for different versions of the same story why not do that with Luke because you have to assume that Luke who writes the

01:47:02

Gospels about the crucifixion and then records the story about the tree is going oh I've forgotten what I wrote earlier so I'm just going to come up with something new that's uneven scales again let's apply the same standards then we have the good old

01:47:16

Jehovah's Witnesses wow, even the Jehovah's Witnesses have shown up this evening and we have the difference between crucifixion where your arms are out like this and being put on a stake where your hands are over your head explain that one for us

01:47:30

I don't know what it has to do with the subject of the debate but I will, it's real simple you know why the Jehovah's Witnesses are wrong? I've debated them too, by the way you know why they're wrong?

01:47:38

Because of the word Halon Halon, Halon means nails and in the book of John what does

01:47:46

Thomas say? unless I see the print of the Halon plural in his hands, plural if his hands were over his head there'd be one nail through the two hands it's plural, so his hands are out does it really matter?

01:48:01

It doesn't but there's the answer to that we are told that we only have one testimony of the centurion to the death of Jesus I don't think the centurion was alone when he took

01:48:11

Jesus off the cross he was not unaccompanied by other Romans his life was at stake, so was theirs and according to the very same gospel references that are being ignored there were eyewitnesses that's how

01:48:24

Mary knew where the tomb was that's how Joseph of Arimathea was involved you had multiple people involved including

01:48:32

John, which has been ignored as well so there wasn't only one testimony a boy looked like a corpse, he had not hung on a tree, been beaten to within an inch of his life by Romans and had a sword thrust into his chest either, did he?

01:48:48

this kind of skepticism well, you know, it's possible, maybe this is not how you do history and this is not how you interpret your own

01:48:55

Quran I mean, I can imagine, wow if we use this kind of interpretation of the Hadith you could come up with some really wild stuff man, you really could but let's not do it because it really is not the proper way to do things in Acts chapter 14 verse 19,

01:49:13

Paul is namid zantas, thinking him to be dead well, he had been stoned, he had been knocked cold he's dragged out, it's possibly a miracle even if it wasn't there was no death blow and Jesus wasn't stoned if all you've got is, well, you know, there have been times in the past that people thought people were dead if that's the best you have that kind of hyper skepticism then you now have to overthrow the prophecies of Jesus we didn't have any response to almost anything

01:49:45

I brought up did you notice that? I asked a simple question, Jesus prophesied his own death, burial, and resurrection is he a true prophet or a false prophet?

01:49:54

what do you do with those texts? you just have to reject them, aren't you? well, once you start ripping parts out of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, aren't you admitting okay,

01:50:01

I really can't deal with what your text actually says and so I'm going to reject it that's exactly what's going on what was the purpose of Mark in recording the centurion's verification of Jesus' death?

01:50:15

was it not Mark's purpose to communicate to his audience Jesus truly died? there's no question about that there's no question about that so you have to accuse the author of deception as your starting point and why do you do so?

01:50:28

because of 40 Arabic words written 600 years later about which you know very little

01:50:34

I mean, let's be honest you say that text is Mubinun? why are there so many different interpretations of it?

01:50:42

why is it that the majority of Muslims believe in the substitution theory but you can come to my United States and the majority of the

01:50:49

Muslims in the United States shy away from the idea that anybody else was put on the cross in the place of Jesus and last year

01:50:54

I was debating Shabir Ali and he holds the same view as the Ahmadi on that the Jesus was crucified but he swooned so which one is it?

01:51:02

I mean it says he was not crucified so was he crucified or was he not crucified? he said he was going to be crucified so if he's a prophet then he was crucified but if he was crucified then surah 4 is wrong see the problem you've got?

01:51:16

this is what happens when you take a later source and set it in authority over the primitive sources that actually come from the first century this later source has no connection to the first century once again the sign of Jonah was brought up ignoring the fact that Jesus placed the sign of Jonah within the context of his own clear words as to the nature of what it meant and that was the son of man will be killed, buried, and rise again the third day so if you've got a problem with Jesus' use of the sign of Jonah take it up with Jesus but what it means is you are the one misinterpreting the sign of Jonah not

01:51:49

Jesus finally he quoted from the book of Hebrews Jesus cried out and he was heard

01:51:57

I just finished preaching through the book of Hebrews translating it eighty sermons six years and if you read the book of Hebrews the author of the book of Hebrews affirms over and over and over again in the plainest of language the crucifixion, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ to quote

01:52:18

Hebrews in any other way is to grossly misrepresent it well then how was those words fulfilled?

01:52:25

Real simple my friends Jesus was saved by resurrection that's the point of the writer of the

01:52:32

Hebrews that's the point of the entire New Testament he was heard because Jesus did not stay in the grave he was resurrected and then exalted the very right hand of the father on high so that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is lord of the glory of God the father that's the

01:52:51

Christian message and that is the consistency of the New Testament and you have to simply shred it and treat it with disrespect to come to any other conclusion then that's what it says reject it if you will but don't try to make it say something that it doesn't say thank you very much spot on he's exceptionally accurate to the second thank you very much ladies and gentlemen we're coming to the penultimate session the questions and answers session may

01:53:24

I request that the questions that you wish to pose to Ayub Karim just please kindly form a queue here to occupy this particular mic on my right and then of course the questions directed at Dr.

01:53:42

James White please occupy my left the mic at my left on the side I want to remind you that you will be limited to one minute precisely one minute we do not want a sermon or a speech within your question period and I will rule you out of order if you do not make your one minute

01:54:11

Dr. White I would like to know about first of all

01:54:17

I would like to ask whether you believe that Jesus came to die for the sin of the world as Paul says

01:54:28

Christ has made curse to us yes and the mission of Jesus death was mission of God almighty yes so how come in the book of Luke chapter 22 verse 3 it says then entered

01:54:48

Satan to Judas surname Iscariot right being of the being one of the 12

01:54:59

I can't think we can't hear you through your hand being one of the 12 yes and he went his way and he betrayed

01:55:11

Jesus Christ so how come the mission of betrayal was the mission of devil in the bible sure

01:55:19

I won't need two minutes for this but the bible is very very clear that God uses

01:55:25

Satan just as he did in the book of Job to test Job Satan is under the control of God and in fact

01:55:31

Judas is identified as the son of perdition he's prophesied Jesus prophesied that he would do exactly what he would do and so it was an absolute certainty and the means by which

01:55:42

Judas was caused to do this was the entrance of Satan into him but Satan is under God's control it was the purpose look back at the psalter you have the prophecy of one who would betray the son of man and that would be the means of that betrayal would be the one that would bring him into this position of being able to give his life as a sacrifice for sins so it's a simple biblical concept and it's just the fact that God uses means and even

01:56:05

Satan himself is under the control of God very simple salvation of you've asked your question asked for it actually you had your one minute

01:56:17

I respectfully requested that you condense I'll give you a chance perhaps later ok

01:56:28

Dr. White answered you would have a two minute opportunity to respond which he has and we're going to allow a one minute rebuttal on that or you've got the option to give up your one minute he responded well

01:56:49

I don't know it's a miracle four questions and really I could not understand the follow up of those questions so Mr.

01:56:57

Chairman I'm going to decline to answer that's fine you've got the right to give your one minute up next question on my right does

01:57:09

Jesus say that he was in physical form or was a spirit you're asking the question from the bible or the

01:57:19

Quran just to clarify that question is does

01:57:24

Jesus Christ in the bible or the Quran says that he from the bible

01:57:29

I think I've made my point very very clear in that he was physical all the way even in the supposedly post resurrection era the evidence

01:57:46

I produced is that when he had a dialogue with Mary he was still in the physical and in the upper room he still was physical and yes

01:57:57

I believe that he was always physical and not spiritual that is why I believe that because he was not spiritual he was not resurrected he was not resurrected he was not crucified thank you

01:58:08

Dr. White one minute well I think what is being missed again is the intention of the new testament writers when they talk about the upper room

01:58:14

Jesus enters in through locked doors his physical body is a glorified body something has changed between the crucifixion which they all affirm and now the resurrection they affirm the reality of the physicality the marks are in his hands he eats and yet for example when he's with the disciples on the road to Emmaus their eyes are kept from recognizing who he is it wasn't a disguise this is if you look at the greek it's a force outside of themselves keeping them from recognizing who it is so you're missing again the difference between us is

01:58:48

I'm reading the new testament documents and asking what are you communicating the muslims reading the new testament documents in light of 40 arabic words from 600 years later and not asking what are you trying to communicate and I just say to you this is the very kind of thing that we need to eschew because it does not advance the conversation thank you

01:59:06

Dr. White next question it was said that by the way your

01:59:11

Tajweed was beautiful thank you thank you so much it was said that Jesus wailed and was wrapped up after being crucified if I'm not mistaken something and wrapped up I didn't hear the other part he wailed in pain and was crucified and was wrapped up after being crucified there's nothing about wailing in pain there was nothing about wailing in pain so he did not die he did not die as a result of being crucified he died on the cross is that what you're saying

01:59:39

I'm not sure what you mean by crucified but Jesus died upon the cross of Calvary so he died on the cross not as a result of the torture that he faced while on the cross and another thing was you say that one question

01:59:52

I'll let him finish this one if it's okay because he obviously wanted to finish I'm going to allow you one last question they say that Jesus obviously was a spirit after being resurrected you don't say that let me answer that I made it very very clear if anyone this audience really really wants to dig into this this man is not as conservative as I am in many ways but on this subject there is a scholar in England by the name of N .T.

02:00:24

Wright who has written a book on the resurrection that's literally about that fit with I don't know how many thousands of footnotes

02:00:34

N .T. Wright and I have actually debated one another but I think he's on the side of the angels which means I think he's on my side even though we have a lot of differences with one another his dealing with the subject of resurrection is massive and so what

02:00:46

I'm saying is if you want to look into these things, if you really want to pursue the truth of these things the information is there but it sounds to me like if you thought

02:00:54

Jesus was wailing or something you've been reading something other than the New Testament I would strongly encourage you to actually read the original documents thank you you want to take one minute

02:01:07

Mr. Chairman I need to appeal to you is that I'm having a problem following through a series of three to four questions if you could kindly my request, my appeal is ask them to pose one question so we can deal with it please that is quite true but also remember they have a minute so in that minute they can decide how they want to utilize their minute

02:01:30

I will appeal though that you keep your question succient and to the point relevant to the topic please next sir

02:01:41

Mr. Karim you quoted the Apostle Paul very eloquently I want you to comment on two passages of scripture,

02:01:49

I'm going to read it the first is from 2 Peter 3 and it says here, just bear with me as I adjust this mic 2

02:02:01

Peter 3 verse number 15 it says bear in mind that our

02:02:07

Lord's patience means salvation just as our dear brother Paul also wrote to you with the wisdom that God gave him he writes the same way in all his letters speaking in them of these matters his letters contain some things that are hard to understand which ignorant and unstable people distort as they do the other scriptures to their own destruction the second portion of scripture is 1

02:02:32

Corinthians again written by Paul and he says that spiritual things to the natural man is foolishness your question

02:02:43

I'd like Mr. Karim to just comment on that to respond to the quotation comment firstly if it's hard for me to understand then that means your scriptures are not simplified enough right, then that is not my problem because if you believe it is inspired scripture,

02:03:03

I believe in the simple theory, keep it simple the other thing is that with regards to foolishness

02:03:10

I can't really comment on that if you think I'm a fool, I'll accept it but other than that I believe that listen it's a contradiction that you need to sort out in your

02:03:20

Bible itself, I'm just showing what's in the Bible, either you accept it it's fine, you don't accept it, you're welcome to, thank you that's what the

02:03:28

Bible says, sorry thank you Dr. White one minute both texts are simply telling us that we need

02:03:38

God's guidance and the spirit of God for us to understand God's truth but what the one text is warning us about is if you're untaught and unstable, you can twist the scriptures and my statement this evening has been fairly clear this entire argument that tries to say that the

02:03:57

New Testament writers were not communicating very clearly the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ is a misrepresentation of their intention their words, it requires you to rip the words out of context and I'm simply saying if we're ever going to get any further in our conversation, this kind of treatment has to end it does not advance anything it is not beautiful words it's not an obedience to the

02:04:22

Koran, in my opinion and so that's my point all along thank you, next please

02:04:28

I have a question for Dr. James Wright did you know that wearing a black tie like that makes you look like a

02:04:37

Mormon missionary? that looks like what? makes you look like a Mormon missionary Dr. Wright, you're imposing on this one minute and I'll have to penalize you then for doing that carry on please there are some inconsistencies with the crucifixion of Jesus Christ who went to the tomb?

02:04:58

I'm sorry, inconsistencies with what? I've noticed some inconsistencies with the post crucifixion so who went to the tomb who was seen at the tomb and who moved the stone away from the tomb because according to Matthew, Luke and St.

02:05:19

Matthew, Mark and John, there's some inconsistencies with that one of the most important things that we have to do, all of us have to do in looking at any of the places in our sacred scriptures where you have multiple accounts that are given is to recognize what happens when you have multiple witnesses now

02:05:40

I have Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and I have been teaching through the Synoptic Gospels Matthew, Mark and Luke for I believe nine years now at my church and one of the basic principles is for example in one of those accounts you have one angel and in the other you have two why is that considered to be an inconsistency?

02:05:57

For example in the story of the Gadarean demoniac in one you have one demoniac and in one you have two why can't a person focus upon one while the other one gives further information?

02:06:09

When we look at these particular instances the same thing has to be done in a couple of the parallel passages

02:06:15

I've already mentioned a couple of times this evening in the Quran, why do you have differences between the fall of Iblis, why do you have differences in regards to what

02:06:23

Lot said to the people of Sodom and Gomorrah? Now one of the problems here is I have different people recording so Mark has one purpose in writing to his group

02:06:32

Matthew has another purpose of writing primarily to Jews, Luke to another people and so they're going to make different decisions as to how much information they're going to include how much detail they're going to include if I understand the

02:06:45

Quranic understanding the inspiration of the Quran, that's irrelevant to the Quranic text and so why are there differences?

02:06:53

I can explain the differences because Mark includes more data or Matthew telescopes something but why would there be differences in the instances in the

02:07:02

Quran because you don't have multiple authors speaking to different groups that's

02:07:07

I think a question that again, equal scales we have to apply the same standards either direction we go

02:07:14

Can I use one minute to All right

02:07:20

I would just like to say that although Dr. White say that there are no inconsistencies and he keeps on referring to the inconsistencies in the

02:07:27

Quran we are not dealing with inconsistencies of the Quran we are dealing with was

02:07:32

Jesus Christ crucified and resurrected and I think we should maintain that subject if the people were writing for different reasons

02:07:41

I can appreciate that but when you give wrong information and I wouldn't say wrong information, contradictory information to your readers what the gentleman is saying

02:07:52

I truly agree with him that these are inconsistencies because according to Matthew Mary Magdalene and the other

02:07:58

Mary went to the tomb that's two people then according to Mark chapter 16 Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Salome brought spices to the tomb that's three people and then according to Luke the women went so that because it's plural it could be two, three or four and then according to John chapter 20

02:08:19

Mary Magdalene went alone so is it one, two, three or more?

02:08:24

Time out. Thank you. Next question. Hey you

02:08:30

I'd like to ask do you think it's valid that the

02:08:35

Quran comes 600 years later and Mohammed dictates that Jesus was not crucified he was never in Palestine he contradicts everything that the

02:08:48

New Testament writers say about the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus he also contradicts what the

02:08:56

Roman historians of that time says about the Christos that he was crucified, he also contradicts

02:09:05

Josephus that's a Jewish historian that's writing at that time and there is no historical evidence that supports what the

02:09:14

Quran says. Do you still believe the Quranic position 600 years later concerning the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus?

02:09:26

I will need more than two minutes to answer this You're not getting more than two minutes unfortunately

02:09:33

Okay, there are many facets to his questions but your first part of it yes do I believe the Quran? Yes I believe the

02:09:40

Quran You see with regards to the history part I'd like to take it with a pinch of salt and I know

02:09:45

I'm not going to do justice to answering your question, maybe you and I can do this privately, but very quickly you see when it comes to history yes we have to rely on history but who wrote the history?

02:09:56

I need to verify the source, I need to verify the historian itself, simply because if you look at South African history, you know when

02:10:02

I was in school we were taught that the white man that came from the Netherlands the Dutch, he came to South Africa and we read this in history that the natives of this country stole their cattle, and my question is, how many cattle did they come with from the

02:10:19

Netherlands for the natives here who had thousands of cattle freely roaming the land, how many did they steal from the

02:10:25

Dutch that they ended up in war? Now you go and read South African history on the ANC government it's a totally different ballgame so normally superior powers, the ruling race writes the history to suit the needs so with the history

02:10:36

I'm a bit skeptical, I want to check the source out first with regard to coming 600 years later, it's more difficult for you as a

02:10:43

Christian because now you have two standards that you need to work with one is the Quranic standard, but the

02:10:48

Quran only came 600 years later, when they were debating this at the council of Nisi 325, the council of Trent and all the other councils, there was no

02:10:56

Quran so how did they debate the subject without the Quran? Sort that out first then we'll deal with the

02:11:02

Quran Thank you

02:11:09

Thank you, Dr. White, one minute I have no idea what the

02:11:15

Quran has to do with Nisi or Trent at all the point is that we'd have uneven scales here once again, we have a source that is ahistorical there is not a single historian anywhere that claims surah 4, 157 can be traced back through history over against four sources that come from the first century and so you have that contradiction

02:11:38

I can respect a Muslim that says, you know what, I just accept surah 4, 157, it itself says that it was made to appear to them, should be halahum, so that's what they thought happened, and I just accept it as divine revelation,

02:11:51

I can deal with that, but what we have tonight is not just that, we have then the twisting of the

02:11:57

Christian scriptures to try to make them say something that they never said, the fact of the matter is, the testimony of the

02:12:03

Christian scriptures of the crucifixion is much clearer than surah 4, 157's denial of the same

02:12:10

Thank you Next question My question to Mr.

02:12:17

James White I want to quote a verse in the Bible Hebrews 3 verse 1 to 2

02:12:30

Can you read the Bible to me and the second is Romans 9 verse 5

02:12:44

You want me to read these to you? Yes Do you want to in the meantime ask your question relative to those verses?

02:12:53

You wanted Hebrews chapter 3 verse 1? 1 to 2 Therefore holy brothers, you who share in a heavenly calling, consider

02:13:02

Jesus the apostle and high priest of our confession who was faithful to him who appointed him just as Moses also was faithful in all

02:13:08

God's house Romans 9 verse 5

02:13:16

You're going to run out of time with your question It's alright To them belong the patriarchs and from their race according to the flesh is the

02:13:23

Christ who is God over all, blessed forever, amen Your question My question

02:13:29

Jesus died like a prophet or Jesus died like a God Jesus died what?

02:13:35

Did Jesus die like a prophet or like a God according to the Bible I don't even understand what you mean by died as a prophet

02:13:46

I think the point he's making is that Christian believes in the trinity, Christendom and fundamentally he wants to know then when

02:13:56

Jesus was on the cross according to the Bible and died, did he die as God or as man or prophet

02:14:04

Jesus was the God man Am I correct? I just want to know did I sum it up correctly

02:14:11

Your question is did Jesus die in terms of the concept of the trinity, did he die as Jesus man or Jesus God?

02:14:20

What is read in the Bible is the same Bible Jesus is a prophet and the same

02:14:26

Bible says Jesus is a God so my question is did Jesus die like a prophet or did

02:14:32

Jesus die like a God? Thank you If Jesus died like a God the time he died, who was controlling the universe

02:14:40

Thank you Couple things, very common question Jesus is both

02:14:46

God man, prophet, priest, king we cannot boil him down to anything simpler than that, the presentation of Jesus, one thing is for sure, he's not a mere result, if you would take everything the

02:14:57

New Testament says, that is very clear, it is a common misunderstanding of Muslims that if Jesus dies then who's running the universe well,

02:15:06

Jesus isn't the father Jesus isn't the spirit so the father and the spirit are still there but what's more what

02:15:11

I don't understand is why do you assume that death means non -existence do you think death means non -existence? When you die do you cease to exist?

02:15:18

Of course not, and Christians don't believe that either so when Jesus gives his life voluntarily upon the cross, he doesn't cease to exist, in fact the

02:15:25

Bible even tells us some of the things that he does during those three days, so he doesn't cease to exist, instead he voluntarily gave his life upon Calvary's tree he had that authority to do so and he did so out of his great love for his people, and so what you're trying to do is reduce the

02:15:45

Jesus of the Bible down to what you have in the Koran, but the Jesus of the Bible is too big for that, and I commend you on knowing

02:15:53

Romans 9 -5 it is one of the clear texts that demonstrate that Jesus Christ is identified as God, and I appreciate that, but it also identifies him as a prophet as a priest, as king as servant all these things are true, it's like Jesus is a diamond, you don't look at a diamond from just one direction, you can turn it every different direction and each facet will show you another aspect of his beauty and that's what the full text of the

02:16:18

Bible, Old and New Testament does with Jesus Christ Thank you

02:16:24

I have to stop you there please, one minute you want to rebut

02:16:32

I will still maintain that Jesus Christ never died whether you refer to it as being you know, die as a

02:16:39

God or die as a man it really doesn't make a difference to me alright thank you next question sir

02:16:49

Hi, I would just like to ask if you brought up the three days that Jesus spent in the grave and their correlation to Jonah's three days in the whale

02:17:01

I was wanting to know, are you also then aware of the correlation between Passover and first fruits and the three days that came between that as we see

02:17:11

Jesus as our high priest as well and he was sacrificed on Passover as our perfect Passover lamb because all of the feast days that the

02:17:20

Lord gave to us are foreshadowings of things to come Passover being Jesus' sacrifice to cover our sins during that time the three days after Passover the high priest being a mirror of Jesus would go into seclusion for three days he would be hidden from Israel and from the rest of the world he would go into seclusion for three days and then emerge on the day of first fruits to give his first fruits offering to the

02:17:47

Lord and that is then mirrored in Jesus being crucified on Passover going into the grave, going into seclusion for three days and then emerging on first fruits with his first fruits offering his life as well as those who were resurrected around him.

02:18:03

Are you aware of that correlation as well as that of Jonah being not alive alive alive alive dead alive but being alive in seclusion and emerging again.

02:18:16

Time out thank you It's a beautiful concept but I'm not buying it okay okay if you want to believe in it like that then you are welcome to but the thing is that Jesus Christ said you know for as Jonah was and if you are looking at the correlation like that you would believe that Jesus Christ is a sacrifice for redemption for your sons and things like that however

02:18:41

Jonah was not a sacrifice they went out to murder him they threw him overboard you know and my question would be then is listen if Jesus Christ was put to death and only to be raised on the third day then

02:18:55

I want to know what is the worthiness of the sacrifice when you kill somebody you expect him to remain dead that is a purpose of sacrifice that is a precedent set in the in the

02:19:04

Old Testament but now you tell me that he died and then after three days you say he is alive so what kind of sacrifice is this is this some kind of a bogus a pious fraud do you understand what

02:19:14

I'm saying so if you killed him fine you killed him but I expect him to remain dead then that's a sacrifice but only to be resurrected

02:19:23

I don't think so thank you Dr.

02:19:30

Wang one minute I'm not sure why there was applause there and here's why here's what

02:19:36

I just heard the text is there and you quoted the text but I'm not going to buy it because we don't believe in atonement that makes as much sense as my saying well when

02:19:46

I read the Quran oh yeah it says that Muhammad is a prophet but I don't believe it so I don't buy it is that how we deal with texts is that how we deal with each other's scriptures we will never get anywhere if we continue doing that the point is my opponent this evening has quoted from the book of Hebrews and he expected you to believe that part about crying out to God that book talks all about Jesus as high priest and fulfills all sorts of the aspects of the high priest so you can't just go

02:20:15

I don't buy it because I don't believe in atonement that would be like me taking the Quran and going I don't buy it because I don't believe

02:20:21

Muhammad is a prophet so what that has nothing to do with what the Quran is actually saying does it my disbelief doesn't change what it says equal scales thank you next

02:20:35

Mr. White I think we all believe that God is not author of confusion that's

02:20:45

Corinthians 15 34 33 I mean in the churches specifically exactly

02:20:51

God is not author of confusion so if there's any confusion any contradiction inconsistency one will be in difficulty to choose as to which one is correct and which is incorrect because it's the two opposite things one must be correct one must be incorrect now if you read the book of John Mark Mark 15 verse 25 it says on the third hour he was crucified in John 19 verse 16 sixth hour he was brought out to be crucified now which one was crucified on the third hour which

02:21:37

Jesus was crucified on the sixth hour that's really easy I've already explained it once I'm sorry you didn't hear it you need to understand that Matthew Mark and Luke use

02:21:45

Jewish time John uses Roman time they start the day at a different time they're writing to different audiences real simple real fast real easy there's no reason for me to say anything more about it because once you allow that then their times all match up no contradiction and I would disagree with one other thing if you think that there can be no differences and if there is differences of opinion about something that means that it's not from God you mean you all agree on everything

02:22:12

Muslims agree on everything right you have no divisions of course you do so do we so be careful equal scales both in our interpretation of text as well in how we live out our lives thank you one minute no comment ok passed next please you'll have to get a little closer to the microphone sir could you speak in the mic please you know the gospel of Barnabas why gospel of Barnabas was close to the microphone why gospel of Barnabas was banned in Roman Empire till the arrival of Islam the gospel of Barnabas is a 13th or 14th century fraud there is no historian in the world that believes that it's accurate or that came from that time period it is filled with anachronisms it is one of the most obvious examples of something that was written long after the times that it narrates it is to be rejected as having any relevance that time period whatsoever there is an epistle of Barnabas that comes from that time period but you're talking about a 13th 14th century fraud all critical scholars recognize that including many

02:23:27

Muslim scholars that recognize it for the fraud that it is it was banned till the arrival of Islam untrue, document it sir it was given in those days those who contained this what do you say laughter laughter laughter laughter you know laughter

02:23:55

I admire this man's faith in me it reminds me of this I admire this man's faith in me and it reminds me of what is written in the gospel about you know that woman with issues touching

02:24:08

Jesus Christ and she was healed and when Jesus Christ said be healed your faith has healed you unfortunately

02:24:13

I can't help you with this one laughter sorry excuse me sir let me respond see the gospel of Barnabas is not accepted within Christian circles in fact it is not accepted in Christendom and I personally

02:24:29

I studied the gospel of Barnabas and while there are many anti -Christian sentiments in the gospel of Barnabas there are clearly many anti -Quranic sentiments in the gospel of Barnabas as well so based on those words

02:24:40

I personally would not use the gospel of Barnabas thank you applause applause thank you next question greetings to both you gentlemen fantastic discourse well

02:24:56

I don't really have much of a question as such it's more of your professional advice that I require and I hope

02:25:01

I could get some from you I've learnt a lot today but I really want to adopt your concept of equal scales you know what you see there you've got to try it on this side as well in order to understand but my problem with this is that which authentic scriptures or collection of scriptures from the

02:25:19

Christian side do I take you know I'm a bit confused I'm the layman on the street but I'm listening to you guys and I want to try and get to know

02:25:25

Christianity better but there's so much I don't really have the time to take on too many you know

02:25:30

I've heard Luke and Corinthians and Old Testament and New Testament could I ask you a question when you say there are when you say there are different kinds

02:25:39

I'm not sure what you mean by that you mean translations? No no no collections you know what is the difference between the

02:25:44

Old Testament and you've got the New Testament what is this Luke and John and Paul are they just a collection of sayings like what we've got the hadiths from different sahabas you know what is it which if I need one bible which would you advise me to go and get in order for me to try and understand

02:26:00

Christianity sure I'll sit and listen to you thank you I'll try to do this be as full as I can in two minutes the only differences meaningful differences you're going to find as far as the content we call the canon, canon means the listing of authoritative books is the

02:26:17

Roman Catholic Church has what's called the Apocrypha there are 13 or 14 depending on how you count them additions to the

02:26:22

Old Testament the New Testament is going to be the same amongst Protestants and Roman Catholics as well and I've done entire debates on the subject of the

02:26:31

Apocrypha you can find them on YouTube if you'd like to look at them what you want to find is a good

02:26:37

English translation in fact I would compare English translations I would highly recommend both the

02:26:43

New American Standard Bible and the ESV ESV is now extremely widely available you can frequently get it for free in various phone apps, iPad apps things like that but please remember something the bible wasn't written in English just as you would always ask that the final authority interpretation, the tafsir of the

02:27:04

Quran be the Arabic text the Old Testament was written in Hebrew the New Testament was written in Greek the bible is those two things put together and so every

02:27:14

English translation has to be under the authority of what the original language has said and so often confusion and misunderstanding comes because people ignore that reality that was written in another language so I would love to say

02:27:32

I would be glad to ship you a bible, the problem is your guys postal system ain't working real well right now, if you notice that I'm afraid to send anything down here because it's going to end up in Botswana some place so if there's some way

02:27:47

I could help you to get one of those maybe electronically talk to me afterwards I'd be happy to help you out Thank you

02:27:53

James thankfully we're not in the apartheid era so there won't be any sabotage from the postmaster

02:28:02

Ayub, would you like to comment one minute The gentleman that posed the question

02:28:08

I'd like to offer him a free seat at Iqra Islamic Comparative Religion Academy in our comparative classes and I will introduce you to the

02:28:16

Dubai Bible, the King James Version the RSV 1952 RSV 1971, New International Version ESV I've even got one bible that has the word

02:28:25

Allah in it, the Scofield Bible, so I'll even introduce you to that as well and I'll teach you okay, you join the classes come to the office, enroll and we will go through the whole course in comparative religion and this office is open to everybody else as well

02:28:37

Muslims and Christians, thank you Thank you

02:28:42

See no more questions I don't, so you got a last question

02:28:49

I'm going to allow you one last question I didn't see any physical bodies over here, it must be the spirits

02:28:58

It's pretty clear that from the Christian side the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ is crucial to our faith and Dr.

02:29:06

White has done an excellent job on that, however this evening would not be complete if from you, who claim to be a

02:29:15

Muslim scholar who denies the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ what alternative do you have for all of us in terms of salvation and the promise of eternal life the forgiveness of sins and the promise of eternal life, which the death and resurrection does for Christians, because from my understanding and from my study of Islam even your prophet did not have that answer, because on three occasions, when you read the

02:29:44

Hadith literature he was asked by the Sahaba his friends, his disciples Oh Prophet of Allah tell me what will happen to your soul when you die, and on three separate occasions he said the same thing he said,

02:29:56

I do not know what's going to happen to me neither do I know what's going to happen to you, only Allah knows so I propose that you don't have an answer either

02:30:06

Thank you Two minutes There were two questions posed there so are you going to give me four minutes?

02:30:15

No, unfortunately not I'll have to be not Alright, the concept that you would get eternal life by believing that Jesus Christ died and resurrected for your sins

02:30:32

I don't think that is really true because then that would go against the grain of what Jesus Christ taught and I don't want to sound arrogant and say okay, but this is the concept of the

02:30:43

Antichrist you know, I would still need to prove that but you have the concept of the prodigal son where God Almighty is giving you a parable, and he's telling you that there were two sons, and one is his inheritance and he paid him out and he went, he squandered it and he ran into poverty and he came back to it, and his father was overjoyed and he said, this is my son who was dead, is now alive who was once lost, is now found.

02:31:14

So this is how it will be. Basically, God Almighty wants you to repent, and by that repentance,

02:31:20

God willing, he will save you. So, if the resurrection story is true, then what is the worthiness of the prodigal son?

02:31:28

But I believe that the prodigal son makes more sense because that is consistent with what is given in the

02:31:33

Quran it is also consistent with what is given in the Old Testament it preached repentance, repentance, repentance

02:31:39

Jesus Christ also preached repentance but while you're talking about the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, a man -God

02:31:45

I just want to let you know that there were many earlier civilizations that actually believed that God had to come down in human flesh, get sacrificed, and then you'd have eternal salvation.

02:31:58

Orises, that's in Egypt, Bel in Babylon Attis in Vigra and Khaira Tammuz in Syria, Dionysus in Greece, Krishna in India Herseus in Europe and I've got many

02:32:10

I've got 16 listed here but all these were man -gods who had to be sacrificed and they were also raised to give eternal life.

02:32:18

Thank you. Thank you. I'm very, very disappointed at that last section The attempts to parallel Jesus with Osiris, Horus, Isis or any of those are absolutely positively offensively ridiculous

02:32:32

They're offensively ridiculous They were not monotheists They were not dying and rising gods, most of them had to do with crop cycles

02:32:40

Jesus has nothing to do with crop cycles I have debated atheists on these things and I have destroyed them in the facts

02:32:47

Please never repeat that again Don't repeat that, it is one of the worst arguments, it is as bad as the worst arguments raised against Islam Please, please, please don't do that The New Testament message is that Jesus Christ gave himself as a ransom for many, that's his words

02:33:07

The parable of the prodigal son illustrated the Jewish rejection of the coming in of the

02:33:13

Gentiles It was not meant to be a summary of the entire gospel, listen to what Jesus said, I give my life a ransom for many

02:33:22

Thank you. Last question Hello Hello When somebody asked you a question early on regarding the different versions like with the three hours and the six hours you said that one was using the

02:33:42

Roman time and one was using the standard time or whatever, am I right? There is a difference between Jewish time and Roman time

02:33:50

So what time was the author using, why couldn't he calculate, didn't he do his maths and he could say that three hours is three hours or six hours is three hours the person who wrote what you stated, the author

02:34:03

I'm not understanding what he's saying, I'm sorry the passage what? He's saying there appears to be an inconsistency in terms of Roman times and other times so yeah

02:34:12

So the author should have said three hours is three hours

02:34:17

No, no sir No sorry, he should have said three hours is six hours using

02:34:22

Roman time and six hours being six hours Sir, when you read the Quran you can assume that Muhammad is using the time measurements of the people of that day for example, lunar cycles

02:34:34

I could come along as a solar cycle person and accuse you of error why didn't you say that?

02:34:40

This isn't an argument, I'm giving you a response, okay Again, this is just being fair when

02:34:49

Matthew is writing to Jewish people before the destruction of the temple in AD 70 by Titus in the 10th

02:34:56

Roman Legion, he's writing to a people who measure time in a certain way and so he uses their standard

02:35:02

John is writing later the temple's gone, he's not writing to Jews and so he uses the time standard that they use they weren't talking to each other and saying well

02:35:13

I'm going to use the same standard you do John's writing probably after Matthew's even dead, so there isn't any contradiction between them if you use equal scales because I could come along and accuse the

02:35:25

Koran of those things but I'm going to interpret the Koran in the context in which it was written to be fair to it

02:35:30

What you are saying now, you're actually confusing the normal layman from what you're answering the

02:35:37

Bible should have said it as it is Oh the Bible should 3 equals 6 and 6 is 6

02:35:42

So the Bible written by multiple authors over multiple times should have been written in such a way that a person living two millennium later who uses a different time thing would not have to do the work to go back and ask what the original authors intended

02:35:56

Sir, I would never treat the Koran that way I'm simply saying to you, you shouldn't treat the New Testament that way

02:36:02

Are we getting to an argument now? No, you've asked your question and I've been tolerant to allow you another subsequent question after that Let's respect the rules

02:36:13

If you'd like to have a debate after the session, I wouldn't mind No insult intended to anyone

02:36:22

I just have to be perceived to be fair and I also have to be fair not just perceived to be fair I think that's the qualities of a good chairman

02:36:31

I'm not claiming to be a good one Would you like to respond? You have one minute Okay, I just want to make it clear for the gentleman

02:36:40

You're talking about the contradictions See, there are contradictions I believe that there are contradictions and maybe one day in the future

02:36:48

I'd like to debate that with Dr. White you know, contradictions in the Bible and he believes that there are contradictions in the

02:36:53

Koran and we can do that but on this one regarding the six hour and the three hour you're talking about, I can't really comment on it because I didn't have a very very close look at it, but he's telling me that one is calculating a

02:37:04

Jewish time and one is calculating according to the Roman time. For now,

02:37:09

I have to accept until I have a look at it and honestly, I did not have a look at it Thank you Thank you very much

02:37:15

Ladies and gentlemen, I don't see anymore physical bodies, neither spiritual bodies I'd like to thank you for that particular section

02:37:24

We're coming to the final session and that is the summation Each speaker will have five minutes each to summarize and from there we will leave the rest to you to decide and you know, make your own research there after I'm now going to allow

02:37:45

Dr. White to proceed with your summation I came here this evening because I believe that if we as a community of believers even though we have many differences from one another are going to advance in our understanding of one another we have to stop assuming things about the others that are untrue

02:38:14

There are people in the Christian community who will not listen to what you have to say

02:38:21

They will not treat you fairly They believe things about Mohammed and Islam that are not true.

02:38:26

They will not allow you to define your own faith and I believe that is wrong It's just as wrong for you to paint with a broad brush that all

02:38:36

Christians are the same and not listen to what we're actually saying You especially have a requirement here.

02:38:43

You know why? Because the Quran specifically makes reference to the

02:38:48

Torah and the Injil and in fact, in Surah 5 Surah Al -Maidah, if you follow the argument, you will see that the

02:38:55

Torah is sent down to Moses It's Netzal. It's sent down It contains light and guidance

02:39:01

The Injil is given to Jesus and it is sent down The Quran contains light and guidance and the

02:39:07

Quran is given to Mohammed. There is a chain of prophetic authority leading to Mohammed there

02:39:14

That is what the Quran says and that means you of all people should be most careful in handling the scriptures, the people of the book

02:39:23

Even if you think they've been changed you have to think very deeply about, well, when did that change take place?

02:39:30

What was the nature of that? Can the words of Allah be changed? How did that happen? There are many issues.

02:39:37

You as Muslims must think these things through and in this situation, my friends, I have proven this evening and no rebuttal has been offered

02:39:45

No redefinition of anastasis has been offered. No redefinition of the meaning of the word preparation day or Friday has been offered

02:39:56

My points stand completely unrefuted and every point that my opponent brought up,

02:40:02

I responded to and refuted with scholarship and so my appeal to you is that on this matter it must be recognized the message of the

02:40:13

New Testament text is the crucifixion burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ Now we've got to deal with it

02:40:20

We will never be able to deal with Surah 4, verse 157 We will never be able to deal with these issues in an honest way until we recognize what the intention of the

02:40:30

New Testament writers was and what they actually said and Achmed Didat's arguments and the arguments of this fine gentleman here misrepresent the

02:40:40

New Testament in a gross way They've been refuted this evening and it's time for us to lay them aside and move past this stage in respect and concern for one another so that we can actually start making some progress in dealing with the real issue and that is you have a scripture that you believe comes from God that comes 600 years after mine and there are contradictions between the two of them and you don't solve the contradiction by twisting what came before Even the

02:41:08

Quran does not teach you to do that. Even Surah 279 does not substantiate that but see we can't even start getting into those issues as long as we're not being honest with what the other side is saying

02:41:20

We have to be able to move forward with one another and so listen to what was presented, consider it and then let's do that but please on this issue on this matter drop the crucifixion argument

02:41:36

It has been refuted It is not worthy of those who want to follow the truth who believe in Al Haq and want to give beautiful words to the people of the book

02:41:46

It's not worthy of you. It's time to lay it aside. Thank you very much for listening Thank you very much

02:41:58

Dr. White I'm going to ask Ayub to do your summation 5 minutes please

02:42:20

Bismillahirrahmanirrahim In these 5 minutes I just want to go quickly and mention to Dr.

02:42:31

White that I beg to differ that he has refuted my arguments, my arguments on the crucifixion, my arguments on the sign of Jonah still stand and he hasn't come anywhere close in refuting it

02:42:46

The other thing is that you know, Dr. White is always talking about even standards and even in words

02:42:54

I don't see any even handedness in his words. I mean he's talking about, I'm talking about tree and crucifix and he says that well wood come from trees, the cross came from the trees so it's the same thing so I'm going to go back to the office and I will tell him you know this podium is made out of wood so I will tell him that Dr.

02:43:18

White stood by the tree and delivered his lecture. Seriously if this is how you're going to handle it you just can't do that and I am not misusing the

02:43:29

New Testament wood is wood although you get wood from tree but tree is tree so you make up your mind was he put onto the cross, was he put onto the tree, was he put onto the stake then with regard to Hebrews chapter 5 verse 7 again there is no consistent application of the

02:43:48

English language, the words I am telling you that according to Hebrew Jesus Christ was saved and then

02:43:59

Dr. White tells me that he was saved through the resurrection man do

02:44:04

English words have meaning when you want to be saved if you are in danger you tell somebody to help you like if I'm in danger then the man standing there he wants to kill me and I say

02:44:14

Mr. Chairman please help me so he says no no I'll save you but let him kill you first are you saved?

02:44:22

No no this is not the English language I seriously I don't know what language Dr. White is speaking now so there is no evenness when he asked to be saved he asked to be saved from death so you don't kill the person and say okay

02:44:33

I'm going to resurrect you so you are saved there is no logic in that it's a very poor argument with regard to those people in Philippines that are being beaten they are beaten

02:44:47

I am not going to read it they are beaten where their backs are beaten to pulp with regard to the things that our

02:44:57

Prophet Muhammad Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam has mentioned we are not debating our Prophet tonight so that is beside the topic we need to stick to the topic but the debate is almost over and I just want to mention

02:45:09

I don't have much time okay my stopwatch has stopped working how much time do

02:45:18

I have left? two minutes alright why we believe that Christ was not crucified as Dr.

02:45:25

White pointed out one verse forty words وَقَوْلَهِمْ إِنَّا كَتَلْنَا الْمَسِيَّ إِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَا رَسُولُ اللَّهِ وَمَا كَتَلُوهُ وَمَا سَلَبُهُ وَلَاكِنْ شُبِّعَ لَهُمْ وَإِنَّا الَّذِينَ اخْتَلَفُوا فِيهِ لَفِي شَكٍّ مِنْهُ مَا لَهُمْ بِإِلْمِ إِلَّا تِبَعَ الزَّنَّ and they said in boast we kill

02:45:46

Christ the son of Mary the apostle of God وَمَا كَتَلُوهُ وَمَا سَلَبُهُ they didn't kill him nor did they crucify him وَإِنَّا الَّذِينَ اخْتَلَفُوا فِيهِ لَفِي شَكٍّ مِنْهُ مَا لَهُمْ بِإِلْمِ إِلَّا تِبَعَ الزَّنَّ and those who differ therein but it was made to appear to them so but those who differ therein have no certain knowledge but only conjecture to follow and this is the conjecture

02:46:07

I was showing you one woman, two women, three women cross, tree, stake and there were many inconsistencies the son of Jonah and whether he was physical or spiritual, all these are guess works nothing concrete وَمَا كَتَلُوهُ يَكِنًا وَمَا كَتَلُوهُ يَكِنًا he talks about exegesis the interpretation of the

02:46:29

Bible has always been about possibilities and he says it has to be about probabilities I don't know if he wrote it but I saw it there now

02:46:37

I'm saying forget the possibilities forget the probabilities now you have something sure, something definite وَمَا كَتَلُوهُ يَكِنًا وَمَا كَتَلُوهُ يَكِنًا for a surety they did not kill him and all

02:46:50

Christians that are seated here even Muslims, you need to ask yourself how is it possible that one man, 600 years after the incident, 1000 kilometers away, can make such a bold claim, just like how your

02:47:03

Paul made that claim, our Muhammad is making a greater claim that they didn't kill him, nor did they crucify him how is it possible, you think about it وَاخْرِدْ دَوَانَهُ وَالْحَمْدُ لِلَّهِ رَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ

02:47:20

Thank you Thank you very much Ayub Karim I would like to, can

02:47:25

I just urge you to to remain for one last minute, we have to do the final item on the agenda and that is the vote of thanks, is to basically share the respective viewpoints from Christianity and Islam and leave you the audience to go home and do your own research and seek your own truth, as your conscience would dictate, it's not a contestation and see who is going to be the winner, the winner is

02:47:54

God and we have to find that path within our own souls, I really have to say now, moving on to the vote of thanks, personally

02:48:03

I would like to thank both speakers, I would like to say that the decorum and the respect that was shown was commendable it reminds me that both great religions of the

02:48:20

Abrahamic faiths were respected, Jesus showed love in accordance with the

02:48:26

Bible, the Holy Bible and so too did the Quran in chapter 16,

02:48:32

I think it's verse 125, where it says that invite them with beautiful language and I think both giants in the

02:48:41

Christian and the Muslim faiths here tonight displayed that kind of respect and that kind of following and I really appreciate that from my personal good self,

02:48:53

I also would like to firstly thank the almighty for allowing his grace to prevail and his wisdom upon us,

02:49:03

I would like to thank you the audience for being such a wonderful interactive audience you have shown the kind of respect that made my task easier, thank you,

02:49:13

I would like to also thank again a special thanks to our honored guest, who came all the way from the

02:49:20

USA he's been fantastic I'm sure you will go home with lots of knowledge that he imparted and so too from the other side,

02:49:30

I would like to thank my colleague here, Rudolf who assisted me with time keeping and made my task easy it was great to have you

02:49:38

Rudolf, thank you and good luck to your organization who posed the challenge to Ayoub and was quite instrumental in getting

02:49:48

Dr. White here, they did a fantastic job, I would like to also thank the video man and the sound people

02:49:57

I would like to ultimately thank the ICRA staff who went through great lengths to prepare for this particular day and to for the coffee and the tea and the hospitality that they've shown me personally in helping with the logistics can

02:50:19

I just call on the ICRA staff to come forward and people can see who they are, males and females particularly the females who worked exceptionally hard you are stars thank you very much ladies and gentlemen,