Matt Slick Bible Study - Romans 9

Just say just give me the finger. Hey We're good. We're on we're live right now right now

Okay, I guess so all right, let me jump in we'll pray we'll get into Romans 9 and Cause a little bit of controversy here.

I know the people are not gonna like what I'm gonna say about it But that's because I'm gonna read what it actually says and teach what it actually says and then people are gonna get mad at what

God Actually says that's what happens. Usually, you know being right all the time like this is reading the scriptures really upsets people

Yeah, let's see how many people throw something at me. All right, let's pray Lord Jesus thank you again for the time and the opportunity to be able to Go through your word and to teach your word and I ask

Lord that by your great grace You would open our hearts and our minds To teach us to reveal to us your greatness your sovereignty of who you are

And what you've accomplished in your word and through the Sun Lord teach us we ask this we ask for your guidance

And we ask that you bring people to watch who needs to watch and who people here need to be here

We ask this Jesus your precious name. Amen. All right.

All right. All right, so Getting into Romans 9 you guys see me. Okay on the cameras the full width and everything's good.

All right, so I'm gonna do is Is do this now why am

I doing this that's before not through Romans 9 and I know that people are gonna be Maybe a little bit disenchanted with the reform perspective and that's maybe why a lot of people won't be interested in this

But I'm gonna throw something out into this also and tackle a little bit of Mullen ism along with it,

I think It might be interesting. I know that Mullen ists are taking issues with some of the things

I'm saying good And the more I know about it the more I'm convinced that it's a problem and I'm gonna work on some stuff later on that But nevertheless, we'll get into some some of the issues now so if you want to turn in your

Bibles with me, you can turn to Romans chapter 9 and What I'll do is

I will Start at verse 9 just get right to the controversial part that area of Scripture where a lot of people just Well rebel

Back when I first read this I too had problems with what it actually said

But when it says what it says if you're a true Christian and you read God's Word what you're going to try and do is

Submit your heart your mind to the Word of God. You're gonna try and say well, this is what it says

Best of my ability. This is what it says and to the most of my best of my ability I'm gonna submit to what it says.

That's hard to do in a lot of areas I know that some people might be saying well Matt you're Calvinist. You don't do that You don't submit the

Word of God to what you Or what you believe the Word of God you do it the other way around and that's just a common

Accusation made by both sides actually The real issue is what does the Word of God say?

I've written on this on Calvinistcorner .com And I think I've had one or two responses that I've written to as well people who tried to get in to say that This is not about individuals.

It's about nations Etc. Now I'm going to say before the onset that Romans 9 has a test in it and we'll see if you pass the test and The test will determine if you're understanding the text better or properly and if you take the test

Well, what's so funny? You got some people commenting already They're commenting. They're negative What's that?

The Arminians least favorite chapter in fact, you know in the Arminian section of the Bibles and the in the bookstores

Romans 9 just isn't in there and along with Ephesians 1 is kind of in a grayed out area And and there's some other stuff that had little problems with usually soul depravity things

But you know, their Bible is a lot lighter, I guess. I don't know It's easier to carry

Doesn't weigh upon them as much and you know, I said I think some of them come with ear ticklers right on the edge and you can just you know, okay,

I know I'm making a lot of enemies here, but We're just having fun. All right. So let's just jump right in Romans 9 verse 9

It says this For this is the word of promise at this time. I will come and Sarah Shall have a son and not only this but there was

Rebecca also When she had conceived twins by one man our father Isaac all right, so In verse 10 here says that Rebecca's having a you know talks about having children

Jacob and Esau historically speaking Esau was a firstborn and then Jacob But their birthright was swapped switched etc.

And So it says here in Verse 11

For though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad So that God's purpose according to his choice would stand not because of works

But because of him who calls it was said to her the older shall serve the younger just as it is written

Jacob I love but he saw I hated now Let's stop here for a little bit and kind of go through this check it out

What it says for the twins were not yet born Now I want you to think about something Because I know that a lot of different perspectives are out there a lot of different people will have different ideas of what it means

For God to elect to predestine to call to make choices about who he's going to what vessel for honorable use one for dishonorable use

And that the reasons that he will do this is varied people have offered different explanations Particularly in this issue in this section of scriptures

What I want to do is talk about the issue here of the twins were not yet born now Not yet born had not done anything good or bad

Now of course not yet born and had not done anything good or bad

So we've got to think about this. What's going on here? They hadn't been born and there's nothing good or bad about them that they had done

It has nothing to do with that now To the to those who believe that God looks into the future No, it's a future exhaustively knows the counterfactuals to say that he knows what they would have done in different circumstances and all this kind of stuff

Does this support that? Well, the twins were not yet born had not done anything good or bad so that God's Purpose according to his choice would stand not because of works but because of him who calls let me expand on this a little bit

To make my point Well, the twins were not yet born and no Counterfactual knowledge about them was known because nothing about them had been decreed and had not done anything good or bad

Because there wasn't any good or bad sense at all just nothing So it's not about what he would know that they would do and nothing and they of course had been born yet But it's the whole context of not being born is what the context is.

So future context here is included in there So so that God's purpose according to his choice would stand not because of works not because of anything they would do

Now works decisions words anything choices not because of that but because of him who calls

I think this is a strong verse against the idea that God looks into the future in any way capacity and decides to act or Make decisions based upon what people would do in a foreseen circumstance whether libertarian free will

Calvinistic total depravity Compatibilist free will whatever you want to call it Pelagian ism semi

Pelagian ism counterfactuals free knowledge, whatever you want to call it Not because of works not because of anything foreseen not because of anything

They hadn't even born yet Is it not because of works the works have to relate to think that they would have done in other words God's thing

There's nothing nothing, so I'm gonna bring something up here.

I'm going to talk about Because I don't know if I'm gonna be I do not know if I'll be able to Articulate this as well as I would like to articulate this because I think there's some issues here that are important and Something that's just try and say it see if it comes out, right?

I've been doing a lot of research on Mullen ism and The issue of God decreeing based upon foreseen events of Choices that people are going to make under different circumstances

Which presupposes a libertarian free will prevent grace So There's a problem here.

I was I just got to get this out It's not because of him who works not because of what is seen not because what is foreseen.

Here's a question. I Was reading my notes about this earlier and the light went on Is it possible that in anybody's perspective?

Where God will know what people will do under different circumstances and then decides to act or choose

What will occur based on those circumstances is that circumventing the cross? That's a question.

Is it circumventing the cross? Because no act that anybody can do can be considered good

Without it being filtered through the blood of Christ Now that's an important point

So does God look into the future so to speak with that term? I say that very loosely looking in the future

Molinus don't like a term not gonna define it what it means now Not that he's looking down a quarter of time and seeing ramifications

Because they say all knowledge is instantaneous, but our minions give me the same argument If God is looking into various times in the future when he's going to see under different situations

What people will do under different things? Then is he doing that through the blood of the cross that was then future or is he not or is he what the question?

I'm asking is what is God seeing? Is he seeing potential decisions of people? That might become

Christian or will become Christian or won't become Christian and it's in his knowledge

But he's not filtering their decisions through the blood of Christ and they're not sanctified through the work of Christ It's just a question don't if I'm asking it, right?

But it's around this issue that I want to spend some time doing some research and some some thinking about and writing some statements out

I know that a lot of people are gonna say and I know I can think of potential responses to them to the

Comments, which I wouldn't mind to hear and I have my reasons for that. But nevertheless They will need to assert that God sees what they will do in Christ But if he's gonna assert

If God's gonna choose somebody to do something not based what they're gonna do in Christ Then why would he choose to do that?

if Libertarian free will is the issue about why moral responsibility is true.

It doesn't make any sense And I can get in some more details I'm not gonna get in that right now because I want to have a discussion on it with some other people later

Nevertheless it was said to her the older will serve the younger just as it is written Jacob. I love but Esau I hated what's going on here

And the text is God is making his choice not based upon any foreseen acts wills choices decisions of man

And he is simply making the choice on his own. It does not depend upon the man who wills or the man who runs

That's what the Bible says later on here in this chapter The older will serve the younger just as it is written Jacob.

I love but Esau hated So what a lot of people will say is no the reason that God loved one and hated another because he saw what they would

Do but the Bible specifically says in verse 11 not because of works not because of what they would do

But because of him who calls it was said this is an exact issue of the sovereignty of God now.

Here's a test Let's see if you pass this test for the text if you don't raise up an objection at this point

You don't understand what's going on if you are understanding Jacob, and he saw this to be nations And so he raised up one nation another nation and that they have these problems in these nations and individuals are the ones who retain their perfectly free will and They're the ones who make choices, then there's no reason to complain because it's all up to their free will choices anyway

But if that's not the case and it is individuals that God is ordaining for whatever purpose he desires

Then you raise the objection you go. It's not fair Because moralistically speaking what most people will say is that in order for someone to be morally responsible for something they have to be able to Choose between a or not a as well to choose

X or not choose X and be free to be able to do that Which I have problems with that kind of definition anyway

But if not able to do that Then how is it that they can be responsible because God didn't ordain it they they?

That they have the ability to choose That's the common objection raised against this text, and I want to say to them so stinking

What if you don't like that? Where's it say in the Bible that your reasoning has to be the right standard by which

God himself is judged? We'll get into the text a little bit more about that, and I'll talk about moral responsibility and God's ordination a little bit

But notice what goes on here in verse 14. What shall we say then there is no injustice with God is there may it never be

Now wait a minute. Why would Paul ask that question? He's asking the question because he's anticipating the objection to what he's teaching if he's teaching

That is just nations who are being spoken of Jacob as a nation Esau as a nation and individuals within those nations make their own free will choices.

There's no need at all to say well That's not fair He has a right to do with what he wants with nations right raise him up But people in those nations do different things

But you would object most people do when they say no, I don't want to serve a

God like that I don't want to serve a God who will pick one Jacob. I loved and Esau I hate it not because of anything that they would do

People Christians, I've had Christians say they don't want to serve a God like that. They don't want to serve the God of Scripture that's what it comes down to and Her man be

Pam be teaching that they're getting in churches, and they're getting the breastfeed me kind of thing.

It's just bad That's what they're getting it's weak and they're not sticking with the

Word of God and what it says So verse 15 for he says to Moses I will have mercy on whom

I have mercy and I'll have compassion on whom I have Compassion the word home there in the Greek is in the singular Now that could be plural or singular in the

Greek. I Will it's like saying I'm gonna have compassion on all those I want to have compassion or you can say it's like saying

I can have compassion on individual I want to have compassion and that's what's going on here on whom on the singular individual the single

That's a singular form on whom I will have compassion Nothing in the text suggests that God's mercy upon any individual is based upon anything in any foreseen context

Nothing in any way says anything is foreseen By God to know what they might do in different situations, and that's why he chooses

This works very much against that idea And if anyone wants to say that he doesn't like what that says, well,

I'm good Then you're understanding what Paul's teaching because he raises the objections And Paul says in verse 16

So then it does not depend upon the man who wills or the man who runs but upon God who has mercy notice the man

Now we know this includes individual women as well It does not depend upon the man who wills or the man who runs but on God who has mercy

Is it really just individual groups? I'm assuming groups of people or individuals themselves the man who runs the man

That a group of people or that one individual the man doesn't say the man doesn't say the people doesn't say the group doesn't say

The nation it says it does not depend upon the man who wills or the man who runs but upon God who has mercy

What does not depend on the man's will? What is it that doesn't depend on him on his will?

Look for what previously caught in the context God's mercy upon whom he'll have mercy and His compassion on whom he'll have compassion that does not depend on anything in the individual.

It's completely God's sovereign and free grace that's what's being said as Difficult as that might be to understand it means he didn't know you anything

He doesn't owe you anything and he chose you because of what's in him not because of what's in you he didn't look down the corridor of time whatever that might mean and see what potential you could have if you were in your wisdom choose

God and then he based his decisions on you No, he says it does not depend upon the man who wills or the man who runs but upon God who has mercy

This is what Paul the Apostles teaching a lot of people want to just object to say I refuse to believe that then refuse to Believe it demonstrate your total depravity to be true and so doing rejecting the

Word of God But that's what it says here To do it verse 16 does not depend upon the man who wills or the man who runs but upon God who has mercy

It's God's sovereign choice to bless or not to bless who to love and not to love it does not

Depend in any way on the person that's hard Which means he cannot base his decisions on what you might do under different situations

Counterfactuals Verse 17 for the scripture says to Pharaoh for this very purpose

I raised you up to demonstrate my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth

So God raised him up for that purpose To display his power through him Verse 18 so then he has mercy on whom?

Singular in the Greek he desires and he hardens whom? Singular in the

Greek whom he desires you'll say to me then why does he still finds fault for who?

singular again resists as well And wait a minute verse 18

He has mercy on whom he desires. He hardens whom he desires Then you people gonna say well, then why does

God find fault with them because they have no choice And the answer that God gives is on the contrary.

Who are you a man who enters back to God? The thing molded won't say to the molder. Why does it make me like this?

So what's God's answer shut up and sit down? Now this is an important point here because what a lot of people try and do at this point is solve a problem

What they see is a problem of God's for a nation man's free will his decrees man's decisions

Responsibility moral this and moral that and they try and get in they In They use a lot of philosophy a lot of ideas a lot of Reasonings to try and and answer this when

God just says basically shut up and sit down Who are you? Who are you to say back?

This isn't right because what people do is they'll say it isn't right So what I'm going to do is show you how to make it, right?

That's what they're essentially doing. I've encountered this so many times over the years in Romans 9. I Don't like what it says.

I'm going to show you how a different way to understand it will be When you do that, it's nations, for example, then the objection falls away

Then the complaints fall away the very complaints that Paul the Apostle is raising Here's the test if you don't ask the same basic questions and raise the same basic objections in the text

When he does then you don't understand the text and if you don't understand the text

You need to study it until you get to the point where you're scratching your head and go Well, that's doesn't seem to be quite right isn't quite it seem to be fair what he's actually saying here

That's when you know You've got it And if you've got it You got to believe it and don't try and rationalize it away to make it feel better for you

Because you want God to be the blonde -haired blue -eyed Caucasian surfer dude dressed in a woman's nightgown Standing at the door of your heart waiting for the unbeliever and the wisdom of his sin to try and pick him

God says on the contrary, who are you? Oh man singular Who Answers back to God the thing

Singular molded will not say to the molder. Why did you make me like this? Will it? Or does not the

Potter have a right over the clay to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use

Now, this is really interesting Doesn't God have the right to do that people will say to me. It's just hypothetical

It doesn't mean he's doing it. He just has the right to do it. He's not really doing it. That's what they say

He doesn't really do that. It's just hypothetical And that's what I usually say something like well,

I don't know and I can see what you're saying It's just hypothetical. But you know, I do believe that the God makes

Even the wicked for the day of destruction. I think that they all know he doesn't and I just quoted Proverbs 16 for to them

God does do this As much as I don't like it What this text says

I learned years ago To to submit to what the

Word of God says when I was at Concordia University a Lutheran College LCMS College back in the late 80s and Rod Rosenblatt a well -known professor in that that That camp the

Lutheran camp Taught me a lot of theology. He recommended I go to a Presbyterian seminary but He was a good man a good good teacher and we were in class when he told me told the class

In a theology class that God predestined people. He elected them. I stood up and I said no he didn't

It's up to our free choice up to our ability to do this. I Did I just challenged him right there in class?

He's very gracious and He said well Matt. I'll tell you what Why don't you go read and he gave me some chapters

To read just go on your own. Just go read and then let's talk later. That's how he responded to me

I said, okay, that's fair. I sat down and wrote down the chapters. You want me to go read two weeks later?

I stood up in class again. I said two weeks ago. I Challenged you mr.

Dr. Rosenblatt But I need to take that back now and apologize.

You were right. That's what the scripture says It says you're right It took me a couple of days to finally get to the point of accepting it

But that's what it says And he said All right Then he just kept teaching about something else.

I Believe what if you make a mistake in public take care of it in public, okay? and in order for me to get to that point where I was accepting what the doctrines of predestination election really were

I had to Re -evaluate my own heart my own understanding before God I Had to sit there and say what am

I going to submit to what? My feelings to the Word of God or the Word of God to my feelings

That's what it came down to for me and I knew right away. I only had one choice God's Word is supreme.

My heart is not if I don't like it that problems on me That's what it said. I owned it and then

I apologized to him in class and In order to do that I had to you know eat my words and I did no problem

But it taught me a lesson back then What does the word say? What does it say?

Not what I what do I want it to say? What does it say? That's the issue

What does the word here say? Verse 18 so he has mercy on whom on the individual he desires and he hardens whom the individual he desires

You will say to me then. Well, why does he still find fault? He hardens them and then he judges them for being hardened

That's not fair. They raise the objection and that's what it is right here So then why do you still find fault who resists his will?

And the answer on the contrary who were you oh man who answers back to God and that's the problem

That's occurring in the Christian Church today, particularly in this kind of a topic They're answering back to God and saying that I taught about this last week.

I don't want to serve a God like that They're answering back to God the thing molded is saying to the molder.

Why did you make me like this? You don't have the right to do as you want with your creation I'm gonna tell you what has to be and I won't serve a

God that would predestine I won't serve a God that would elect. I don't serve a God that would choose. It's up to me and my wisdom

That's what's going on and Romans 9 flatly stands in the face of that kind of arrogance that kind of pride

That's how it is Now people don't like it But oh, well,

I don't like it, but that's what it says. I don't enjoy going through this is saying see

I Know what this says. I'm not fond of what it says, but so what it's what it says now

Verse 21 or does not the potter have a right over the clay to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use

Another for common use the word vessel here It's used in different ways.

It's the word a Greek word skelos It's used in different senses. It can mean

Household instruments and things like that but also is

What's it in reference to people? It's always of individuals x915 Go for he is a chosen instrument a chosen vessel skelos again

Of mine, this is in reference to Paul the Apostle That he is a chosen instrument a chosen vessel of mine

To bear my name before the Gentiles and the kings of Israel First Thessalonians 4 for that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor talking about Your own body or your own wife depending on interpretation there of first Thessalonians 4 for Again in speaking of individuals in 1st

Peter 3 7 you husbands likewise live Likewise live with your wives in an understanding way is with a weaker vessel since she's a woman

How about Romans 16 13 greet Rufus a chosen man it collect us in them in the

Lord Chosen also his mother and mine 2nd John 2 1 and 13 the elder to the chosen lady

And her children whom I love and not only I but also those who know the truth

And the children of the chosen sister, so we see here That God uses the term chosen or skimming the word vessel of individuals

That's how he uses the term when speaking of people of individuals if I remember my research I don't ever recall any place where the word vessel is in the plural sense in regard to people

So we look at how God uses the term Does not 921 does not the potter have a right over the clay to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use one vessel one person one individual

For common use and another for honorable use or reversed in there Or does not the potter

God have the right over the clay us to make them from the same lump One vessel one individual for honorable use and another for common use does

God have the right to do that Yes, he does. And if anybody says no, he doesn't because it up to our free will to choose and you're a heretic

Because the scriptures clearly says that's what God says And if you disagree with that you're going against a clearly taught revealed

Word of God Verse 22 what if God all the willing to demonstrate his wrath and to make his power known endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction and He did so to make known

The riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he prepared beforehand for glory now Number 22.

What if God although willing to demonstrate his wrath and to make his power known endured with much patience vessels?

Okay vessels of wrath prepare for destruction These are individual people

Individuals prepared for destruction. There's a word vessels in a plural sense used of individuals So he is saying here that he has the right to make vessels of wrath individuals for the purpose of destruction

Proverbs 16 for God makes all things even the wicked for the day of evil for the day of destruction

Now I know that if people are resisting this it's my natural tendency to resist it because it's not fair It's not fair.

It's not fair that God would predestine people to damnation They say it's not fair.

Well, what is fair? What's fair is that they have the free will choice to be able to make their own decision?

But that presupposes libertarian free will that somehow something called prevenient grace re -enabled somebody somehow to be able to choose

God inside of their own sinfulness in order to believe in God and that's

The answer that makes people feel better about this text and other texts like this Because then it's back up to man's responsibility we'll get into Ford nation man's responsibility here a little bit more detail

The general consensus is as I've been going through this chapter for years Teaching it for years different ways for years different objections.

It always comes down to basically no, it's not individuals It's nations and God would never do this kind of a thing to individuals.

They have to build and make their own choice That's nice humanistic philosophy It's humanism

Humanistic philosophy is what it is People say well Matt, you know what you're

You're going way too far No What it says so this is what a creature should do a

Creature should should say your will be done Not my will be done Jesus said your will be done.

Not my will be done in Luke 22 42 God has for ordination

We have responsibility. We have the ability to make decisions. We have wills Now, let me run some stuff by you

Would you agree with me on this point? nothing in the future occurs by chance

Because God works all things in accordance with his will Ephesians 111 nothing in Actuality nothing in the world can occur by chance

All things work after the counsel of will of God's will there are no accidents in God's kingdom in God's knowledge

There's no chance Where God has to wait to see what's going to happen? That's not how it works

If there were such things as chance and randomness then That would mean the

Christian God is not the true God It also mean we couldn't trust God Because if there's randomness in the universe, how can we trust

God to be supreme over all of it? Now the open theists have some interesting ways of trying to deal with that.

We're going to do that now But what I see unfortunately in my

My let my later years here is a rise of humanism in the Christian Church Humanism is man -centeredness the ability the desire the want for man to be the one who's in control in charge at least in certain areas of his own realm and That he does not bow the knee or the heart or his own will to that of God That's the way of the secular realm and it's creeping into the church and it has been ever since Genesis 3

Human free will even at its greatest level Cannot be by chance Nor can it be by complete self -determination if it's by complete self -determination

Then how could God know what they're going to do How could God know their choices?

Because if he knows what they're going to choose as one argument goes Then they're not free to make a counter choice if God is the one who knows what they're going to choose

So they're not free at that time to make a counter choice so therefore they're not free So in order for them to be free

The implication is they have to be able to make a choice. That's not foreknown by God Otherwise, they won't be able to counter choose when the event foreknown occurs.

It's one of the criticisms Of course, it's unbiblical But that's one of the logic issues that some people like to raise and I'll show you that for donation and Human free will are compatible.

That's compatible as free will I'll show you we know that God knows all things first John 3 20

Now, why does God know what will occur? Is it because he's a good guesser

Is it because that the future is a film strip and what he can do is walk down the path? And you know, that's just gonna happen here

Not like that at all It does he is he just a brilliant? Extrapolator to extrapolate means to take things and draw conclusions and work them out into the future

Does he extrapolate? No The reason he knows things will happen for sure is because he's ordained that they will happen

Nothing can occur without God's will Whether decretive prescriptive permissive, whatever it is

God's will if it doesn't occur because God did not will that it occur even the death of my son 23 years ago hollow prosencephaly a birth defect

He died in my arms literally This happened by the will of God Now when

I say that a lot of people don't listen And they'll say Oh God purposely will that that happen.

I didn't say that Different kinds of wills within God's realm and I like to appeal to in theology

The decretive will where he absolutely desires and causes something to occur. That should be like there's light

The prescriptive will God prescribes certain moral conditions.

Don't lie. Don't steal That's a prescriptive will then there's a permissive will where he permits people to go against his prescriptive will

But it's his will to allow them to go to his against his prescriptive will So it's so it's his will to allow me to sin.

It's his will to allow you to sin It's his will to allow you to rebel against his word. If you're an atheist, it's his will to allow it

You can't do this unless it's within the will of God in that broad sense, you see So nothing occurs in the universe by chance

There is no chance in the Christian worldview. There is no chance everything

Even the casting of the lot. I forgot the verse is by the decree of God Yeah, there it is.

Proverbs 1633. The lot is cast into the lap, but it's every decision is from the Lord. There is no chance

Proverbs 1633 tells us you can cast that lot. The decision is from God Now we can get in some heavy discussions here, but we're not going to So God knows all things that will occur because God has ordained that they will occur either by a decretive prescriptive or permissive will

Nothing will occur unless it's within the realm of his will to allow certain things to occur

Little distraction with a little kid. I hope she's not crying. All right, that's funny

That's right Bad dash I've done that too. The free will choices of people are events.

Now check this out Because I know that people who are gonna object to Romans 9 what I'm saying about Romans 9 are gonna use philosophy to object against it

They're gonna go beyond what the scripture says, but I'm gonna meet you there Let's see how well I do tonight the free will of choices of all people are

Events that will occur and they're certain to occur

Because God has ordained that they occur Nothing can occur unless it's under the will of God That means the free will choices of individuals will occur when they're supposed to occur

Now the objection might then be well, wait a minute If it's ordained to occur and when it comes time for them to do it, can they do anything contrary to that in?

One sense. Yes another sense. No, can anyone go against the decreed ordained for ordained will of God?

Nope Of course not So in that sense, no, they cannot in another sense.

Are they able however To be able to make free will choices to do a or B or C or D.

Yes But what do we say when? God's ordained that their choice be made

Can they go against the foreordained will of God? No, he makes all he works all things after the counsel of his will

Ephesians 1 11 That's what the scripture says So when it's time for a free will creature

To act they do so because God foreordained that they freely act in that manner

Proverbs 21 1 God moves the heart of the king where he wishes it to go People might be saying well, this is like determinism.

No, it's not determinism doesn't mean you you Have free will like that. They're caught in their own loop actually so People will object if it is certain in advance that a person will act in a particular way

Then he can't do otherwise can he? If it's certain he's going to act in a certain way.

He can't do otherwise The reason he can is because God's foreordained that he will freely act in a certain way now we didn't know the scriptures already says

God moves the heart of the will where he wishes it to go and That's Proverbs 21 1 and Proverbs 16 33

That you can cast a lot but the decision is from God there's no chance Nothing is escaping

God and his foreordination his sovereignty But people will say if he cannot do otherwise when it's time to do otherwise, he doesn't have free will and therefore he's not responsible

Because if he cannot do otherwise He's not free to choose the contrary and contrary choices are prerequisite to moral culpability or moral moral responsibility

He has to be able to choose to the contrary when it's time to choose Because if he can't he's not free.

He's not free. He's not morally responsible This is the wisdom. This is the thinking of people

Who object to Romans 9 and some other areas of Scripture? Because they don't like the idea of God's sovereignty

But they don't understand foreordination does not imply the coercion of anybody to do anything

How do we know that Scripture tells us? This is where you need to take philosophy put it here and Scripture and you put it here

Because it guides the philosophy That's what has to happen.

See both are logically compatible It's logically compatible to say that the individual was not coerced because he did freely choose

But he could not do otherwise because God foreordained it Because he can't frustrate the will of God can he now

I got this from Greg Bonson just so just give you guys a credit where it's due and He gives the illustration.

He said It was certain that the Roman soldiers Would crucify

Christ But they were also responsible for what they did No one forced them to crucify

Jesus They did it of their own free will Yet they were responsible as well.

Did they have the ability to do? Otherwise in one sense? Yes in another sense. No You see they could have freely chosen to do something different but on the other hand it was ordained and They had to do what was ordained to do

But they weren't forced to do it How is that possible? Some people say aha

Matt. This is why you can't answer the question. Can you? Actually You're right.

I can't I Can't answer that question how that's possible Because God doesn't tell us the answer

He doesn't provide the answer. I am NOT Obligated to solve the mysteries in the mind of God in his eternal decrees and then tell you how

God works But that hasn't stopped a lot of people from trying to be the ones who can do just that If we go to Acts 4 27 28 for truly in the city they were gathered together against your holy servant

Jesus whom you anointed both Herod and Pontius Pilate along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel to do whatever your hand and your purpose

Predestined to occur so they these individuals notice what it says

Herod it's an individual Pontius Pilate. That's an individual Gentiles that's a group and the peoples of Israel a group we have individuals and we have groups

To do whatever your hand and your purpose predestined to occur We have groups who did this

Groups are comprised of individuals and two specific individuals listed specifically

Yet in Acts 2 23 this man delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God You nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put him to death the culpability the responsibility for that sin

Rested in the ones who had him crucified Yet it was the foreordained predestined will of God to occur

They could not have done otherwise because God had ordained that it would occur and these people are the ones who were named to do this and yet they also were called ungodly men and They were wicked and they're guilty

That's what the Bible says Now someone says me Matt solve it. I'm not going to solve it

No one can solve it because God doesn't solve it for us Who is anybody to want me or any theologian to try and get up and say

I'm going to tell you how God's mind works and all these possibilities He doesn't do this

Should we first Corinthians 4 6 do not exceed what's written? See I'm of the opinion

That We can step into error with the best of intentions And I'm serious the best of intentions seriously

We're trying to solve something where our minds are curious. We see something in Scripture. We offer ideas.

We start defending our ideas And we mean well but in so doing sometimes

I think we can teach error and Misrepresent God by trying to solve what

God himself is not revealed to us Now people might say at this point, but Matt look the

Doctrine of the Trinity is arrived at by logic and little philosophy I'd say okay

But what we do is we go with what the scripture says we conclude what it says one God Three distinct persons each one speaks to each other has a will loves hates as personhood three of them

The Bible says only one God Isaiah 43 40 43 10 44 6 44 8 45 5 1

God So therefore there's one God Three persons so we conclude one

God three persons. That's different than something like this Because all it says here the same thing ought to be done

This all it says here is God predestined that these individuals do these things in the sinful way yet.

They were responsible So we should stop at that point and say what God's able to do is

Predestined people to do individual things and yet they're also responsible Genesis 50 20 as for you you meant evil against me

But God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result to preserve many people alive

This is the issue of God's for donation The working of free will and don't think that he just knows what's going to happen that people are going to do in different search

Circumstances and God is able to weave his will Around the foreseen actions of people

Because Romans 9 9 through 23 refutes that whole idea because Romans 9 9 to 23

Says vote for verse 11 for through the though the twins were not yet born had not done anything good or bad

So that God's purpose according to his choice would stand not because of works but because of him who calls it wasn't because he would

See what they would do in some situation and works as well around foreseen, whatever's In any counterfactual sense, whatever it's not based on that but because of him who calls

God has his reasons and he does what he does and That's what the scripture says and that's how we ought to believe

It's how we ought to speak and we don't have the answers of how that works and because God doesn't tell us then we shouldn't

We shouldn't go beyond what it says And people just don't like this

But it's true We cannot Contradict the foreordained will of God if something is certain in advance

We have to agree that Nothing can happen contrary to what

God has decreed for to happen Even the free will of choices of people nobody can do otherwise than what

God has ordained for them to do. I Hope no Christian would say that we can unless you're an open theist

Now moral responsibility means that a person must not be coerced in order to do something they were not coerced when they nailed

Jesus of the cross The Jews were not coerced into it Roman soldiers. That was their job

They did it But they were ordained to do it the Gentiles the

Jews Herod Pontius Pilate They were ordained to do these very things that so many people said and rightfully said is wrong and It was wrong and yet they were the ones who were responsible for their actions

Get my notes here make sure not mixing something up. Yeah. Here we go. Okay now

Jonah 115 so they picked up Jonah threw him into the sea and the sea stopped its raging But in Jonah 2 3

Jonah says for you had cast me into the deep into the heart of the seas and the current engulfed me

The men on the boat threw him in to the water, but Jonah says you had it done.

You did it God It's a scripture What about inspiration of Scripture Does God violate the free will of men when he has them write inspired words and every single word is what

God has ordained will be on paper He doesn't violate their will But he's able to let's just say work his sovereign will around there's through there's with there's whatever you want to say it

So that what they write is exactly what God determined that they would Get they freely chose to do it

They had the moral responsibility to write Jonah had their moral responsibility to follow God Pontius Pilate Herod had the moral responsibility to obey

God, but they didn't They freely chose to work against God now

Let me just kind of conclude this

By saying that I'm gonna give you my opinion on something and Dismiss it.

This is my opinion. It's all it is I Miss studying aberrant stuff since 1980 and It doesn't mean

I got all the answers it doesn't mean I know everything certainly not There's a lot of areas where I need to study and need to improve but I'm a little unusual in the sense that I spent a lot of time doing it a lot

When I would have my jobs during my lunch breaks, we got to the car and read theology college seminary afterwards

I'm just pretty engrossed in it reading studying debating teaching as a

Thousands upon thousands and thousands of thousands of hours of doing this Means I have some experience

Again, it doesn't mean that my experience is right and I'm making doctrine out of an experience. I can only tell you my Observation through all of that take it or leave it right or wrong

I've seen over the years the past five years to maybe ten years the rise within Christianity the rebellion against the sovereignty of God and the exaltation of the sovereignty of man has taken different forms and Jesus says

In the last days when he comes back. Well, I forgot the verse which I had off top my head I don't when he comes back.

Will he find faith? Now in 2nd Timothy 4 verses 3 and 4

Paul says that in the last days People will no longer want to hear sound doctrine. They're gonna want to hear their have their ears tickled and turn to myths

Here's some myths myths That God looks into the future to see what's going to happen it makes his decisions based on the foreseen choices of man and that what he does is

Reacts to man in any way shape or form Romans 9 speaks against that does not depend upon the man who wills or the man who runs

It does not say that God looks in any way into the future that broad phrase look into the future that broad phrase

Knowing the future by decree knowing the future by anything if it decrees because it's foreordained

He knows what someone will do in different circumstances or gains that it's still reactionary How sovereign is the

God that you believe in Now some people get into what's called logical priority of his decrees

And when he knows counterfactuals The logical issues get that another time the problem is that This always comes down to one thing man's exalted and God is demoted

Now some of those who disagree with me might take real umbrage at that and just say that I'm just speaking arrogantly pridefully perhaps

I am one of the things I try and do and always have tried to do is stick with the Word of God at best of my ability

Now if I'm wrong and something God will correct me on that day Hopefully threaten you before that day of judgment and I can repent of it now and publicly confess

I blew it in this area or that area. I have no problem doing that But at least I'm a man of integrity in that I must adhere to what it says

When people start putting philosophy before scripture, I'm gonna object if they use philosophy

It needs to be subjected to scripture. Primarily. I want to see the attitude of Scripture first so God says that people are responsible yet.

He predestines them individuals to do certain things So that's what I believe because that's what the scripture says

I don't need philosophy to take me beyond that and try and make up something that doesn't exist in Scripture like prevenient grace

I Just really made a lot of people mad now And say that God restores them somehow some way

To make them be able to make free will choices That are really independent of anything else

Based on themselves that God sees that well They'll do that particular thing if it gives prevenient grace that he knew that would happen in the future

Which is why he's going that way This is this to me is the theology of those who don't want the sovereignty of God who will say

Why did you make me like this? That's what I see it as And I recommend that people repent and Just say

God is sovereign. He's a king. I'm not he's the Lord. I am NOT my ways are not his ways He has the right to do with his creation as he wants

He can make one vessel for honorable use another one for dishonorable use. That's his right We don't know all the criteria that he chooses

We don't know why the more we preach the gospel the more get saved we just know what happens

There are certain things in the scriptures that we are are informed about But they're not explained and God has chosen not to explain them

Trust me. I would love to build explain them. That's one of the things I like to do But I'm not going to try go too far beyond what the scripture says

Says don't exceed what's written 1st Corinthians 4 6. I don't want to do that. I Philosophical ideas and then making the scriptures fit in order to Excuse God for his sovereignty

That's the problem. I'm saying it's occurring in the church in a lot of ways Maybe I'm right.

Maybe I'm wrong and Maybe I just have misunderstood so many things which is certainly possible and if I'm corrected

I will say hey, I was wrong about this We'll move on But the more I've studied this kind of stuff the more

I'm convinced This is what I'm saying And people who say I'm wrong when I quiz them.

This is what this is it? Yes, it is Oh, that's what I was saying. People are just rebelling

Against the sovereignty of God, but I know that some will say Matt. You just don't understand We believe in the sovereignty of God far more than you realize

Maybe that's the case But we'll have more discussions about that another time you know and I want to represent the other side properly and We'll see what's going to happen

I'm still learning through this but this is Romans 9 nonetheless and Romans 9 is a difficult chapter and our obligation is to believe what it says and not submit it to our wisdom

Because as soon as you start doing that You help to develop idolatry. We don't want that now, do we?

All right, we take a break And we'll do some Q &A afterwards back in 5 or 10 minutes

All right. So let me pray real fast Lord Jesus, thank you for Romans 9

Thank you that it stirs our hearts that it challenges our minds That it causes us to examine your word more deeply.

I Asked Lord that as we do that all of us that we would humble ourselves before you and submit our hearts and our minds before your word and Not the other way around Lord Jesus Would you please have mercy upon all of us?

We are sometimes walking in darkness as we seek the light Trying to understand with the feeble minds that we have

But we know that if we look to your word that we can see better We can see the truth and we ask

Lord that you would open up our hearts and minds to your word We know Jesus you do this. We ask this in your name.