Mega DL! P&P on the NS; Great Statement on Critical Race Theory; 80 Minutes in Response to RC Video

Alpha & Omega Ministries

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

Comments are disabled.

00:31

And green welcome to the dividing line it's a dead cast dividing line today

00:36

We haven't gotten whatever the cable is. I guess they changed how they're doing stuff or something

00:42

I don't know and now it I don't work fine for a long time and not done work fine

00:48

And so we can't do live broadcast till we get this fixed. So we're working on get it fixed so till then we just record these this way and Go from there, so there's no interaction or anything like that, but that's that's okay

01:02

So you'll notice though the warp core is at about normal normal speed. Nothing. Nothing major We've got a lot to get to today.

01:08

However, so And not all of it is a whole lot of fun, but let me start off Nashville statement a lot of the responses, you know, you've seen this

01:19

Denver statement Which is really no statement at all, you know a statement if it if it has

01:25

Meaningful scholarship behind it if it actually brings people together from different perspectives

01:31

That are joined together on something. It's really important Okay, fine you get it you get it, you know three homosexuals together in Denver that's not exactly what

01:40

I would consider an overly important thing, but you you consider the balance of the

01:48

Nashville statement and the balance of its language and The care of its language, which obviously part of it was so you can bring more people together and That's what's caused a lot of people to go.

01:59

Well, what about this? I'd say it this way yeah, but what we're trying to do is is affirm a central core that is vanishing quickly the response to Nashville statement has demonstrated that What is called evangelicalism

02:15

United States is a dead shell. It's a rotting corpse It really is when you when you see the kind of response that simple basic Summary of biblical authority

02:27

God has the right to tell us The large portion of leadership of people

02:36

That once called themselves evangelical think that you have the right to tell God what's acceptable for him

02:41

Not the other way around that's what we've got today. This is this has been a bright bright light

02:47

You know what happens when you shine bright lights on a rotting hunk of meat. It smells even worse and It only accelerates its decay and that basically is what we've been seeing.

02:58

But anyway One one example given by Bob Gagnon who we'll talk about here in a moment

03:07

This is from Chris Garrett's a professor of history at Bethel University in st. Paul, Minnesota.

03:14

I Do know this anything that needlessly inflames divisions in the body of Christ is an essential departure from Christian witness but then confusing divisiveness for integrity also seems like a hallmark of theology in the age of Trump as if Trump has anything to do whatsoever with the

03:38

Nashville statement the concern of Having a biblical ethical morality understanding.

03:44

What does Trump have to do with anything? Nothing whatsoever in regards to this Fundamentally what you're you're being told by the people on the left is

03:56

Believe as we say Celebrate what we celebrate and shut up period end of discussion.

04:01

We're not gonna we're not gonna actually interact With what the statement says. No, no

04:07

We're not gonna we're not gonna you know that would require us to actually do something with the words of Jesus and in Matthew chapter 19 and and the consistency of Paul's utilization of legal categories going back to Deuteronomy and You know if we go into Deuteronomy someone might actually read all of it and find out that there's all sorts of stuff in there

04:27

You know might find out how humorous it was a couple years ago at that Matthew Vines thing

04:34

When what was that ethicist name just just escaped me for some reason was staying there and telling everybody

04:43

The former Baptist or I guess he's still a Baptist Baptist doesn't mean a whole lot Honestly when you're talking about a mode of baptism doesn't tell you much about your theological stance.

04:51

But anyway When he's actually telling people it's more important To to tell people to love their neighbor

05:03

Yeah, yeah, David Gushy It's more important to tell people Jesus would have taught us to love our neighbor rather than some obscure text from from from Leviticus We are all chuckling because love your neighbor actually comes from I guess that's what

05:21

Jesus quoting but anyway People might get into that stuff and find out what the Bible actually teaches on these things and so we don't do that we just we're just gonna you know, this side has recognized that as far as the

05:33

In light of the fundamental collapse of the critical thinking capacity of Western culture

05:38

They've won this war not because of the value of their arguments, but because no one values arguments anymore

05:45

They don't people don't value logic. They don't value consistency. And so Why in the world should they engage in any type of debate or argumentation?

05:54

They just don't need to do so and so it's easier just to mock the other side because you'll be accepted for that Than to engage so it's just believe what we say don't be divisive now

06:07

Because we now define orthodoxy Even though we stand against you know, 2 ,000 years of Christian Tradition on that that's it's interesting that Bob Gagnon was one that quoted that because he gets mentioned in a pulpit and pen article and My what

06:25

I've been informed is when the pulpit and pen Today Says news

06:32

What is what was it news group or news? Whatever it is. That's actually J .D. Hall. What? News division.

06:38

Yeah division is News division. Okay, that's actually J .D.

06:43

Hall, even though he's not actually writing for pulpit and pen. He is We all know that So anyway the news division wink wink

06:58

Wrote Concerns about the Nashville Declaration and Under the description of the signatories,

07:07

I found it very strange You know, you know once again, it's it's

07:15

It's the flamethrower approach which which puts a lot of people off. For example, it mentions

07:21

Rod Dreher The Nashville direct declaration according to ecumenist and Eastern idolater

07:28

Rod Dreher Yeah, yeah, you know, it's it's it's just like other people who start off their articles talking about someone

07:38

You know the very first few lines. I'm gonna review what this liar said or something like that You know, you're obviously not really trying to reach anybody

07:47

But the already convinced when when your your first approach is just you know, the flamethrower type thing

07:54

I don't I don't get it. But anyway In describing some of these people

08:01

Obviously, I got some sense they don't really like Rosario Butterfield though. It wasn't overly clear, but then we had anti LGBT incendiary

08:15

Robert Gagnon and I'm like What?

08:21

Well, first of all, why why buy? The Anti -LGBT type thing that is that is complete sellout to the

08:31

LGBT Lobby that wants everything to be either you're for us or you're against us as if they get to define things why on earth?

08:40

Would anyone? Identify Bob Gagnon who has recently lost his tenured position for his stand on this and I look

08:49

I Said for a long long time. I don't get how Bob Gagnon is teaching at a PC USA seminary.

08:55

I don't understand it The pressure must be intense and it obviously was but the reality is and a lot of people are really confused like Bob Gagnon, but he's

09:06

His views of scripture aren't quite as conservative as the rest of us. No, they're not the point is that the scriptural testimony is so clear that even when you don't have what we would say would be a

09:19

Significantly more consistent Conservative I would say sound bibliology.

09:25

It's still plain as day. It's still plain as the nose on your face What the

09:31

Bible's teaching about human sexuality about the male -female binary, etc, etc. It's clear.

09:36

It's obvious you do No way around it Well, here's a guy's lost his job recently for standing firm on this subject and the reality is

09:49

What he's produced his material on homosexuality is some of the deepest

09:55

Scholarly work on the subject that's available to us doesn't mean it's infallible. He wouldn't claim it's infallible either but he has stood firm why in the world does pulpit and pen and the news division

10:10

Take a shot at him like this I Don't get it. I mean talk about this is one of the criticisms

10:18

I've had of pulp and pen for a long time. They just shoot everybody including the people are supposed to be on their side You know, it's just like it's just like a machine gun.

10:27

It's just just just shoots every which direction why I Don't get it. We don't need that kind of thing right now, but I love this under the question section number one

10:37

Do you support those who crafted the document and are you completely? Confident that your support will not have unintended consequences in other words by signing the document will you become a useful idiot in Someone else's propaganda campaign, you know,

10:55

I don't know for some odd reason. I'm not really Big on that phrase useful idiot anymore

11:04

But This kind of separationism You know,

11:12

I've become less and less a fan of fundamentalistic separationism Because it smacks me very much as the attitude of the

11:22

Pharisees toward the AMHA audits, you know the AMHA audits were the

11:27

AMHA audits were the people of the land and they were their fellow Jews, but since they could not as scrupulously observe all the 632 laws as The Pharisees did daily.

11:40

They were called the AMHA audits the people of the land who did not really receive

11:46

God's grace the way the Pharisees do and the strongest language in all of Scripture is reserved for that attitude and I don't want that attitude and So I'm a little

11:58

I'm just a you know, maybe it's just me, you know Maybe no one else has a concern here

12:03

But I I just want to try to avoid that attitude at all cost and you know like I said, I think if you're gonna say someone's a

12:10

Christian, you might want to you know, treat him like a Christian and and This separationism, you know when he misses are you completely confident your support will not have unintended consequences

12:24

If I didn't intend it I mean Augustin his reaction to the

12:34

Donatist Controversy had unintended consequences a Thousand years after he died

12:41

Should we hold him accountable for that? If it's unintended if it was not something that you intended it to have that means it's in the future.

12:49

I don't know the future and If it is unintended in the sense of someone

12:56

Utilizing my words or my actions in a way that goes against what

13:01

I believe. How can I control that? I Can't control that and in the olden days when people were serious about truth and logic and rationality and and and being careful in their thought process then people would differentiate between what a person intended and What someone might have done with their words a later point in time?

13:25

So do you support those who crafted the document support them in what way?

13:32

As far as I can tell they all make credible Testimonies of faith in Jesus Christ.

13:38

I may not agree with every single jot and tittle and obviously the news division doesn't either when you talk about new

13:49

Calvinists and Charismatics and culture warriors and and so on and and so forth

13:56

That are that are thrown in here along along the way But Support them

14:05

I support any Christians Who seek to stand upon the

14:10

Word of God and accurately reflect it in a day when it's gonna cost them and it's costing

14:16

Every person who drafted that Yeah, I I do support them in that sense

14:21

Does that mean I agree with everything they say and here's where that fundamentalist mindset comes in mind

14:27

But if you disagree on anything, then you can't support them Mmm, okay.

14:33

That means the earth. There's only one person you can support and that's you cuz Don't do you know of anybody?

14:40

Anybody that you agree 1 ,000 % with on everything come on be honest be honest and sometimes you may agree with yourself.

14:48

So you're really gonna be alone. Anyway In other words by signing the docket when you become a useful idiot and someone else's a propaganda campaign.

14:56

Well If that propaganda campaign is based upon untruthfulness, there's nothing you can do about that God will judge someday

15:04

You act in accordance with what is right as you understand it before God's revealed will and If someone abuses your words and abuses your actions, they will be held accountable for that.

15:19

Not me and I think we all need to be looking forward that final day of judgment as As something we all look forward to when justice will be done so I've just been amazed at some of the responses that that the document look there's plenty of room for discussion.

15:37

There needs to be discussion of Whether mankind even has the right to self identify self identification

15:47

That is an objective right of God God Sovereignly defines by his creative act

15:54

Who you are, you know when I was a kid, no one even questioned that when you consider for example

16:00

God's will Will you look at what gifts God's given you? What do you mean? What gifts God's given me? I get to determine these things today.

16:06

Nobody no one even talks like that anymore Biblical to speak that way just gives an idea of how much the world has come into church, but We're gonna see a lot more

16:19

Developing from this because what we're seeing is that now even within the walls of what calls itself the church the expression of basic simple

16:27

Christian orthodoxy on this subject not allowed not allowed just Not allowed now what's switching gears?

16:34

What's fascinating to me? I Put up some links by the way to Some of the later

16:46

Presentations I made when I was overseas the folks at Heritage Baptist put up the Sermon of Galatians 3 that really went well

16:56

I hope other people will listen to that and hopefully be challenged along those lines and the Selhurst Church material was posted

17:03

Thanks to Ashley and the guys there for putting that up on sermon audio and So I've been putting those links out

17:11

Probably should put them on the blog too, but I forgot to at least put them on Facebook and Twitter, but Once again

17:20

Not only in regards to the dialogues with Yasir Qadhi and the interaction with Muslims, but The issue that I brought up last week in regards to critical race theory and the relationship between races in the church

17:38

Amazing amount of Supportive contact Supportive contact people saying don't stop we we just don't understand why so many big voices are promoting this stuff and almost nobody will say anything in response to it and Again, the fascinating thing is our our brothers and sisters overseas tend to have a little broader spectrum of View than we have here in the

18:06

United States in a positive sense. In other words, I think a more balanced view And in many of those places

18:15

They are so accustomed to a Culture where you have

18:22

You know the race is just you walk into a church and It's a mixture.

18:29

That's just the way it is That's just how things are done and so it's sort of like what's with you

18:36

Americans and you're Why can't you guys get this Type thing and so there is an

18:45

American element to what we're talking about but Totally unbeknownst to me.

18:55

We did that program in the second, didn't we? Same day Same day at the ecclesiasticalcalvinist .wordpress

19:04

.com Statement is released.

19:14

Oh, we did it on Friday. When did we do that? I thought we did the program on the 30th 31st

19:23

Yeah, and that's when this statement came out yeah, so the same day without any connection They didn't ask me.

19:30

I didn't ask them there. There wasn't to my knowledge any connection, even though I know one of the signatories

19:38

Have spoken at his church but Critical theory and the unity of the church comes out the same day

19:44

Okay, if it may have been a day before afterward whatever it ends up being let's not get hung up on that I didn't know anything about it

19:52

Didn't know it was coming out nothing You start reading it. It's like ah, it's wonderful for brethren to dwell in unity because that's what that's what it is

20:03

It's it's a it's a unified They're saying the same things that I said

20:10

Just it's it's great to hear another voice saying the same things that you you've been saying it really is

20:17

And I want to read to you It is it is really well worth looking at I should have blown the font up before I did this but anyway

20:28

Maybe I still can Show fonts. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

20:33

Yeah. There we go Steve See if that helps any no, not a bit.

20:39

Okay, anyway Oh, there we go, there we go Well, there's now one

20:49

M Middle of the whole thing that's larger than everything else was so that's that's sort of funny

20:58

There we go now I can now we can read it Critical theory and the unity of the church the undersigned concerned individuals are constrained indeed compelled

21:06

To speak to ideological dangers that threaten and subvert the unity of the body of Christ Some in the conservative reform community events a laudable desire to overcome racial injustice

21:19

But they often seek to understand racial divisions by relying on categories drawn from the critical theory of secular academia

21:26

That is notions of white privilege white guilt Intersectionality and more broadly the power analysis tradition that stems from Marx Foucault and others

21:38

Rather than from scripture and the Christian tradition Exactly exactly as the result of this

21:50

Uncritical borrowing some in the church are falling headlong into the divisive identity politics

21:56

That now plague the broader culture and particularly higher education These secular categories are often unhelpful for example

22:06

What are often taken to be examples of white privilege are simply the rights and opportunities that should be enjoyed by all and the appropriate?

22:15

Response is not to engender subjective feelings of white guilt But to work to extend these rights and opportunities to all

22:22

Furthermore the notion of white privilege is artificial in that many non -caucasians are similarly advantaged

22:29

While poor whites often experience problems and disadvantages similar to those experienced by impoverished people of color

22:36

Exactly, especially outside the United States while such thinking provides incentives for political activism and a stick to beat people with It does little to further careful analysis productive theological reflection and mutual understanding more broadly we contend we contend that reducing the complexity of social relationships to issues of power and Imposing a binary logic that divides human society into oppressors and oppressed which is

23:04

Marx all over the place by the way That's my commentary is unhelpful in a number of ways When the rich complexity of human society and motivation is viewed largely as a lens of power analysis much is missed

23:15

Such reductionist thinking also provides a ready rationale for unfairly marginalizing people deemed to be politically incorrect

23:24

Perhaps most importantly the identity politics that flow from this fixation on race gender sexuality, etc

23:30

Are powerful centrifugal forces that have the potential to tear not only society but also the church apart

23:38

Such a focus on identity almost inevitably gives rise to a psychology of Resentiment.

23:44

I love them. They throw a little French in there with its anger and desire for revenge

23:50

In short the grand inclusive vision one rooted not in Identitarian difference but in what people share in common of racial reconciliation evident for example in the work of African American Presbyterian pastor

24:03

Francis J Grimke is Being tragically subverted Grimke drew deeply and decisively on the tradition

24:10

Christian tradition for his views of justice and social change and he knew well that secular solutions would not suffice

24:16

He wrote I am hopeful because I have faith in the power of the religion of the Lord Jesus Christ to conquer all prejudices

24:21

To break down all walls of separation and to weld together men of all races in one great brotherhood end quote

24:27

We believe not only that such secular categories are inherently divisive

24:32

But that there is a better way drawing on the Christian doctrine of creation We affirm that all people are created in the image of God That all possess a dignity and value that flow from their relationship to their creator rather than from the contingencies of race gender and ethnicity

24:47

Drawing on the Christian doctrine of sin the fall we affirm that all people are sinners and that sin affects every aspect of our existence

24:53

All stand in need of God's grace and mercy while sinfulness can express itself in different ways depending upon social location

25:01

And God does have a special concern for the poor and marginalized. There is no superior virtue of the oppressed

25:08

The fashionable notion today that only white people can be racist Stands in stark tension with this

25:16

Christian doctrine of sin. I'll let that one sink in for a second

25:24

Because I'd like to make the comment If you don't think that people of color can be racist

25:30

You is one It's all there is to it. Let me say it again the fashionable notion today that only white people can be racist

25:38

Stands in stark tension with this Christian doctrine of sin Yeah, because sin doesn't care what skin color you have

25:45

Skin doesn't care about your melanin count since sin does not care You are a sinner one way or the other and if you're a sinner, then you can be a racist

25:56

That's the reality of the Christian doctrine of sin Which unfortunately is being undercut by some today

26:03

Drawing on the Christian doctrine of the incarnation We affirm the second person the Trinity has united himself with humanity

26:09

And by the way, may I note a non -caucasian human just in passing

26:16

Despite the dumb silly pictures that Unfortunately are all too common we affirm that the second person of the

26:26

Trinity Someone's not Bob, of course, how could that person be listening to the vine line because we're not broadcasting right now, but we will

26:36

We affirm the second person of the Trinity has united himself with humanity and become a member of the human community forever and that this has powerful implication for our understanding human dignity and community as Alexis took as Alexis de

26:51

Tocqueville wrote all the great writers of antiquity were a part of the aristocracy of masters

26:57

And it was necessary that Jesus Christ come to earth to make it understood that all members the human species are naturally alike and equal

27:05

Finally drawing on the Christian doctrines of reconciliation the church we affirm with the Apostle Paul that in Christ There is not

27:11

Greek and Jew circumcised and uncircumcised barbarians Scythian slave free But Christ is all and in all

27:18

We insist that the this union of the church with Christ in his obedient death mighty resurrection and glorious ascension intended in the eternal purposes of God and accomplished by the power of the

27:29

Holy Spirit is More concrete and vital than the contingent social distinctions of race gender and ethnicity and that this unity of the church must not be subverted by dubious and irremediably divisive secular theories

27:45

August 31st 2017 so God's purpose is more concrete and vital than the contingent social

27:55

Distinctions of race gender and ethnicity and that this unity of the church must not be subverted by dubious and Irremediably divisive secular theories good stuff really good stuff and like I said

28:20

Some of you are sitting there going. Are you all playing that you did that program the same day? But no had no idea.

28:27

No earthly idea saw it in my feet either that night or the next day and I'm like Whoa, where did this come from?

28:33

This is awesome. It's great to see somebody else Saying the exact same thing.

28:39

The fact matter is I've spoken about this subject with many ministers the gospel of Jesus Christ and many have expressed a sincere

28:50

Concern about what they're seeing taking place And I'm very thankful that these gentlemen put these these words forward and It's primarily

29:06

Presbyterian folks. I would You know, I'd love to add my name

29:12

There I didn't see any way to do so and I don't know what they'd want me to You know, I you know sometimes

29:18

I sort of have to sit back and go um, I Love to sign on but I don't know what you need the the pain

29:27

The the unnecessary and you know, he practices crystal arms type of stuff, you know that kind of silliness

29:35

Might just be best to leave that stuff aside. So but Good stuff.

29:41

Thanks gentlemen that needed to be said I Imagine you're gonna get some heat for it.

29:48

But that needed that needed to be said really really did so Two things there appreciate that Wanted to make sure that people saw that all right now

30:02

I'm gonna be honest with you. I Don't want to do this. I Don't want to do this because I don't like the attitude of The video

30:12

I'm going to be reviewing and the individual who produced it I find it.

30:20

I Find it immature Childish in many ways But I've been asked by a number of There was finally enough people.

30:32

So yeah, I started seeing this video that not this video but this person's videos and they first showed up and I looked at him and I thought well

30:41

This is pretty simplistic Roman Catholic argumentation You know, there might be some worthwhile something worthwhile and responding to some of this and then

30:51

I as I started watching the videos, I'm like It takes forever for this guy to make his point.

30:59

I Mean 95 % of the time is wasted And in fact as I was prepping for for this one

31:08

The thought crossed my mind this is this is like trying to deal with Achmed D dot Achmed D dot was a showman and He had he had this much argumentation and this much verbiage and This was all to cover for the fact that he had that much argumentation

31:28

This was all this is this is designed for a particular kind of person who is impressed by Anything but the actual substance because in both instances when

31:42

D dot would get to around actually saying something he'd just make the false assertion really quickly and then

31:49

Quickly move on to something else to try to prop that up without ever real. Well, he realized this is why he was doing it without ever actually substantiating

31:58

With meaningful scholarship what he had just claimed and said and that's what this guy's doing

32:06

It's how to be Christian on Twitter. It seems like a rather young kid

32:15

Obviously What's attractive to people about this I was gonna say it must only be

32:22

Millennials, but Today critical thought has just so flown the coop

32:28

That everybody's impressed by You know these these video tricks, you know, we're not gonna be using any video tricks.

32:35

I didn't bring a cowboy hat He's got two little looks like plastic squirt guns

32:41

I could do a lot better than plastic squirt But I thought I'd freak everybody out back

32:46

East the folks in Texas. We'd be going. Yeah Yeah, but the people in New York you'd be like it looks real yeah, it would be but anyway

32:59

We live in Arizona here folks, we're well -armed I The thought really crossed my mind of you know, grabbing a 45 and maybe my

33:08

Smith & Wesson m500 But that would be really great the Roger Rabbit gun the Roger Rabbit gun.

33:13

That's right Most of you have no idea what that means But look up the Smith & Wesson m500 and you'll figure out why it's well if unless you've not seen

33:20

Roger Rabbit. Yeah Yeah, yeah, my literally my holster doesn't go on the belt

33:26

It goes across the chest because it you couldn't if you put down there you could never get it out You can't it has to go across chest because it's so big.

33:34

It's the most powerful production handgun in the world and You'd say why would you ever use it? I went hunting in Alaska It's the only it's the only handgun that they respect in Alaska because it's the only handgun.

33:47

They can actually take a bear down Anything else you might as well throw it at him because it's not gonna have any more effect that anyways

33:52

How do we get on that? Oh wait as you're gonna see he's gonna sit down He's got these little plastic squirt guns.

33:58

He's wearing a cowboy hat and he's insulting He's arrogant. He's condescending as far as I know.

34:03

He's never done any meaningful debates Never taught biblical languages, but but he knows everything he's got he's got it all down and So to be and there are just so many

34:15

Face -plantingly bad portions of this that's a complete waste of time.

34:21

Here's here's what I could do In less than 60 seconds, I can summarize his entire argument

34:27

He doesn't even attempt to substantiate the heart of his argument he just does it without ever

34:34

It it will be useful to point this out But the entirety of his argument trying to overthrow the teaching of Romans chapter 8 aside from the fact that he skips

34:44

Romans chapter 9 which is gonna be really funny to notice. He just jumps it. It's like it's just been decanonized it's just moved out of the

34:51

Bible sort of fun to watch but his whole argument is He buys he's a

34:57

Roman Catholic. So he buys the Roman Catholic idea that you can have individuals who are justified who are not of the elect and That this opens the door for the

35:08

Roman Catholic understanding and this therefore refutes the reformed use of the golden chain which so clearly says

35:17

That if you've been justified you will be glorified. So he has to come up with alternate chains, but there's only one

35:23

He doesn't even he doesn't even try to substantiate that biblically he can't the man does not do exegesis

35:29

All I can do is just read stuff and highlight stuff. There's there's no evidence of any biblical language knowledge.

35:34

Nothing like that whatsoever but this kind of, you know piling cups up and stuff like that and just the

35:45

Schmaltzy schmarmy humor stuff evidently Especially younger folks find that to be really cool.

35:53

I guess that's why people, you know, they watch late -night Comedians and that's where they get their news and If you if you get your news primarily from late -night programs and you're gonna find this guy to be quite entertaining

36:11

Sadly I believe that the Theology and doctrine that we're talking about here does not deserve this kind of treatment, but it's what's out there

36:21

It's the day that we are That we are living in and so we will do our best to respond to it now what

36:29

I'm gonna do However, it's it's how long is this thing again? It's 28 minutes long.

36:35

So as I take it apart, I mean that would be like two hours so I'm going to play him fast because he wastes probably 25 minutes of the 28 honestly

36:50

It's it's repeating me and Jeff Durbin. He just repeats this over and over again. It's it's in a mocking condescending, you know

36:57

Disrespectful type thing It's it that's his schtick. That's that's who he is But I'm going to play him at 1 .3

37:08

I'm gonna try to because it's a video And that's the other thing is these are videos It's next to impossible to just do the audio and cut it because he does a lot of graphic stuff

37:19

You know, he's showing a lot of stuff. You can't really go to audio and hence cut out all the Wasted time.

37:25

So the only way to do it is to speed it up and in quick time I've got I hope I can remember how to do it right to get up to 1 .3

37:33

It'll be a little herky -jerky, but evidently that's a cool thing is herky -jerky Yeah, yeah

37:40

Stuff. I don't know. I'm just demonstrating that I'm obviously old enough to be this kid's dad, but All right, let's um, let's let's get to this.

37:49

We're all plugged in and I think if I do this, oh That's not it. Yeah Okay, it must be this one yes

37:59

Howdy, let's get started. Well, there's some phrases that sometimes little gun shy about in our theology and we might believe them but The fact that we try to find other ways of saying them

38:09

We're a little slow and get into it and when we say it We're pretty quick to explain ourselves might tell us we're a little bit gun shy about so that's

38:16

James White He's not that great at teaching with facts and logic He's part of alpha and omega ministries and he's a Calvinist We've looked at Calvinist teachings before on how to be

38:21

Christian and we've compared the Christian teaching to the Calvinist teaching because while Calvinist Do share several beliefs that Christians hold they also reject certain

38:27

Christian beliefs and substitute in their own So as we just saw there James White thinks that there are certain phrases which people in this Calvinist faith are a little gun shy

38:32

About we're a little bit gun shy about Well, one of those truths is laid out for us here in Romans chapter 8 and see if when we read it

38:40

You can recognize what it is. Okay, so one of these gun -shy truths supposedly according to mr White anyway is laid out in Romans chapter 8.

38:47

So since the suspense is already so much let's fast -forward real quick Mr. White's video and see what this truth supposedly is Okay, so limited atonement was the gun -shy phrase mr.

39:00

White thinks that is limited now Just for those interested This was

39:05

I don't know how long ago this video was It is amazing to me. I don't I don't have time in this life to be rummaging through people's old videos

39:17

Myself, maybe once in a while somebody else would do that for me But it is amazing to me that people rummage through old stuff just looking for things to do what they do.

39:27

This was a video from a Wednesday night prayer service at PRBC and I'd say it's probably five six years ago.

39:38

I didn't bother to look it up, but about five six years ago We're talking about the golden chain of redemption in Romans chapter 8 and the topic of limited atonement.

39:47

So that's Basically where we're going here. I've just got to remember that it's alt

39:53

There we go He is a truth now as you and many other educated Christians may already know the man -made

39:58

Calvinist doctrine of limited atonement is 100 % Antibiblical 100 % anti -christian and 100 % logically inconsistent with Calvinist beliefs now, of course, that's absurd

40:07

It's absurd on its face the the great strength of particular redemption is its consistency with Reformed belief and its deep exegetical basis in Scripture so what you just heard from a person who believes that the this guy in Rome is actually the infallible vicar of Christ believes that Mary was bodily assumed into heaven that Priests are the altar priest whose place is called purgatory and things like that Obviously things that the

40:35

Apostles never did teach That this individual who shows such great discernment on those levels can make this kind of assertion that the doctrine that the son the scope and intention of the sons work of redemption is

40:50

Exactly equal to and in harmony with the father's

40:57

Decree of the salvation of an elect people and the spirits application in the salvation of that elect people that that perfect harmony of the

41:06

Godhead is 100 % and a biblical 100 % anti -christian and 100 % logically inconsistent with Calvinist beliefs obviously this kind of of Rhetoric it's empty it it it's difficult to interact with people like this because it's hard to take him serious

41:23

It's just very hard to take this kind of thing in a serious way, you know in the same way when we look at our People on our side and the things they say about Roman Catholicism.

41:33

We try to be very careful and accurate what we're saying, but Evidently that doesn't go both directions, you know when we we say well

41:44

When I say what I said earlier The Apostles didn't teach these things. I've debated this man's betters

41:52

On those very issues we've demonstrated a willingness to go into depth and history and things like that on those matters

41:58

I I don't get any essence from the kid in the cowboy hat that that he actually has gone into a whole lot of depth on these these particular things, but We'll we'll see more of that Much more detail

42:12

You can check out the video of the Bible versus Jeff Durbin on the atonement The link will be put in the description of this video But to quickly prove that the Calvinist doctrine of limited atonement is false certain

42:18

Calvinist believe in something called a limited atonement a limited atonement belief claims that Jesus died only for the sins of people who will

42:23

Ultimately be saved and given eternal life. Okay, let's let's Provide correction because as as you know, there's too many places where this this poor young man just is in error

42:35

What is what would be the appropriate expression again that there is perfect harmony?

42:42

between the scope and intention of the work of Christ in redemption and that of the father in electing a particular people unto salvation and So it's not an issue of only and then notice who will ultimately be saved

43:01

It is that the father has a unique people According to Ephesians chapter 1 chosen before the foundation of the earth they are a specific people and Christ dies

43:15

Specifically to secure their salvation In other words

43:21

Christ does not try to save he actually does save a specific people that is in perfect Harmony with the work of the father and then work the spirit in other systems

43:32

You have the father desiring to save everybody but maybe having an election of some type subordinate to that You have

43:43

Jesus dying to save everybody even though that's not in harmony with the father's electing purpose of a particular people and then you have the spirit trying to save everybody but but only as far as he can limited by their almighty will and their resistance of his power and and and all the things that come along with that so a

44:04

Little bit of a difference when you actually lay it out the way it it should be rather than than this particular way

44:11

Only is important because they also say that Jesus did not die for the sins of anyone who will not ultimately be saved these

44:17

Calvinist also claim to believe in the teachings of the Bible However, the Bible teaches against the limited atonement. The Bible says my little children.

44:23

I am writing these things to use Okay. Now we've dealt with first John 2 too many times in the past I'll refer you to those more in -depth discussions, but I just want to point something out

44:32

What you're gonna see here is you're gonna see this gentleman demonstrate. He does not Even he hasn't even begun to listen seriously to what the other side says

44:41

Because the biblical argument for particular redemption is based upon the specific sections of Scripture that teach on the subject of The intention and purpose of the atonement which first John 2 2 isn't one of those.

44:59

So in other words when you go to Hebrews 7 through 10 Where the specific subject is the priesthood of Christ the offering of Christ the extent of his atonement the intention of his death the results

45:11

Of his death, you know the stuff that's actually talking about the subject. That's where you get. Well, nothing from him

45:17

Of course, he's not even go there. It's like that part of the Bible's not even there But that's where you get the the heart and soul of these things and so for him to go

45:28

Bible they don't believe this well, that's because we recognize as something called exegesis where you actually go to the plain parts the

45:36

Bible that address the subject and You don't go to parts someplace else that might mention the subject in passing

45:42

Build a theology out of that based upon primarily your tradition, which you don't believe in soul scripture Anyways, so don't pretend that you do what you're doing is you're taking a reference someplace else

45:52

You're taking your external theology your external authority from Rome You're creating a theology and then ignoring all the rest that would contradict that and then accusing us of not believing the

46:00

Bible that obviously Is really bad argumentation really really bad argument. That's why this type of stuff would never survive in a debate

46:08

Because you know if there is any meaningful period of cross -examination this stuff just evaporates very quickly when when you are asked

46:16

To be consistent at this point, which which you're not which you're not being So that's where we get it from but what you're also gonna see is

46:26

As we pointed out the issue here is going to be the term cosmos whole world Not just those who've been saved at this time the elected exist in John's day

46:37

But there is an entire world Jew and Gentile Outside of the work of Christ at that particular point in time the gathered church in John's day

46:47

There is many many more. They're gonna be reached and yes, they are Jew and Gentile The term cosmos in John at least one scholar has identified 14 different uses of cosmos between the gospel and the epistles and Probably at least seven in the epistolary literature

47:07

He's going to ignore all that and he's just going to cobble together all the uses of world

47:12

To create an argument that this means every single human being on the face of planet because the world's everybody else and Us little children.

47:21

So that means everybody So he's gonna make the world system of things which has in Most of the text he's gonna read has nothing whatsoever to do with the extent a number of people

47:33

Jewish Gentile distinctions any of that kind of stuff it has nothing to do with it at all but he's just going to assume it and Then create this idea that what you have here is an assertion that every single human being so Evidently, this would also mean the

47:50

Egyptians the Amorite high priest To whom God never even sent the prophets to call them to repentance for some reason

47:58

Jesus dies for all these people, even though he's not going to save the vast majority of those

48:04

Well, obviously those who came before his time. I'm not sure what he would do with that because if whole world means whole world

48:11

Does that mean everybody before the time of Christ too? I don't know we rarely get answers to questions like that, but you're gonna just just watch as The equivocation fallacy is committed and he doesn't even recognize the different uses of cosmos world in John's language

48:31

And It's so obvious that there are this for God so loved the world love not the things of the world

48:40

If if you don't notice the difference you're gonna make John say some silly things, aren't you?

48:46

Yeah, but he doesn't Doesn't exegesis. No, not not from the guy with the water pistols

48:53

Exegesis isn't isn't his thing a not sin And if anyone sins we have an advocate with the Father Jesus Christ the righteous and he himself is the propitiation for our sins

49:02

And not ours only but also for those of the whole world and I just went out in passing And by the way,

49:07

I dropped it down to 1 .2 because 1 .3 was just a little fast because he does tend to talk fast Um, it'll take us longer to get through this

49:15

If you want to say whole world is Exhaustive of all human beings from this point onward or all human beings

49:25

You are a universalist now, maybe he is I mean there are a lot of Roman Catholics that are today It's not historic

49:30

Roman Catholic teaching by any stretch the imagination, but maybe he is I don't know. I think Francis might be Ratzinger was not wouldn't that be fascinating to have two different popes?

49:40

Ratzinger clearly not a universalist and Francis might be it's hard to hard to say. He's at least an inclusivist.

49:46

Anyway, you are one Because what is propitiation mean? You see if you want it if you want to say for the whole world you have to make this propitiation you have to do

49:56

What people on our side of the tracks do and empty propitiation of its meaning? you have to turn propitiation into Probability rather than actual propitiation says he is the propitiation for our sins and not for ours only so either he is

50:13

It is real propitiation And not just not just well, maybe he makes it possible either it is propitiation or it's not and if he is

50:24

Then those for whom he makes propitiation are saved Dollar is to it.

50:30

You're saved. That's what propitiation does So if you make this Extensive for the whole world.

50:36

Well, you're universalist and there are a lot of universalists out there a lot A lot of people don't aren't don't realize how many of them there are

50:44

This is written to a group referred to as the little children and it tells the little children that Jesus is the propitiation for their sins and Also for the sins of the whole world now the whole world as it's used here might not mean every person on the face of the

50:56

Planet which is usually what Calvinist will try to point out about this verse But also for those of the whole world they said look the whole world is following him

51:05

Question what's every person on the face of the planet following Jesus at that moment? It was an expression, of course by pointing this out

51:12

They actually helped to disprove their own theory of limited atonement because if you keep reading him one John It says for all that is in the world the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of Life is not from the father, but it is from the world.

51:23

Okay, notice notice here. Here he starts Now is that the same world of? 2 -2

51:31

No, of course not This is the world system of things That's different than God's love the world

51:38

That's different than of the whole world in 1st John 2 2 John switches uses of term.

51:45

This is this is again standard exegesis 101 This is actually knowing something about your honey literature and style and things like that This is why you go to seminary

51:53

This is why you study these things so that you don't make really really silly arguments like the one

51:58

The guy with the cowboy hat is trying to make here Oops, this is one there we go on reading the next chapter starts out with see how great a love the father has bestowed on us that we would

52:09

Be called children of God and such we are For this reason the world does not know us because it did not know him keep on reading in the same book next chapter

52:16

You are from God little children and have overcome them because greater is he who is in you than he who is in the world?

52:22

They are from the world. Therefore they speak as from the world now I just point something out.

52:28

They are from the world that Differentiates them from the world Therefore they could not have appreciate propitiation if they are differentiated from the world for whom the propitiation is made.

52:38

It's just so It's so easy to pop holes through this kind of bubblegum theology where you just throw stuff together and you just you have not done your homework and When have you noticed something when when people are trying so hard To attack the truth of God they will end up producing arguments

53:01

That are just so fallacious that they turn the Bible into a morass of self -contradiction

53:08

But they're so focused upon that one thing. They don't even see it. Don't even seem to notice that it's happening.

53:13

It's Like I said, there's a number of really face -plantingly bad arguments in this video

53:20

But listens to them We are from God he who knows God listens to us he who is not from God does not listen to us so the little children and the world are two separate groups of people which means that it's perfectly fine for a

53:32

Calvinist to point Out that the world does not mean every person on the face of the planet. It was an expression however in pointing out that fact they actually helped to disprove their own false teaching because when you take that fact and you add in the

53:41

Fact that Calvinists supposedly believe in the teachings of the Bible and you apply the logic We know that the little children are from God now

53:48

You know, I just I don't mean to interrupt the flow of the bad argument But just watching the video.

53:55

How long did it take to do this? There is a huge amount of editing there It's just such a shame to see people wasting their lives on really bad arguments and trying to cover it up with all sorts of editing because just the audio editing and Trying to keep that that flowing.

54:13

That's a lot of time You do you do a lot of editing of debates and stuff like that, you know, just watching this

54:19

I'm just going Man, what a what a shame to invest so much time on on something. It's so empty

54:25

To the Bible, which is a book that Calvinists claim to believe in the people from the world are not from God again

54:30

According to the Bible, which is a book that Calvinists will commonly claim that they believe it So when you take the little children and you add them to those

54:36

Which is a book that Calvinists will commonly claim to believe it How do you respond to stuff like that, you know, especially coming from Roman Catholic denies sola scriptura, you know,

54:49

I Don't know it's You can either laugh or cry. I wanted to I suppose

54:56

World then what do you get you get every person on the face of the planet? which means that according to the Bible which

55:01

Calvinist will claim they believe in Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of every person on the face of the planet because when you take the little children and you add them to Those of the whole world you get every person on the face of the planet

55:12

So the facts and the logic completely eliminate the possibility for the Calvinist belief in the limited atonement Calvinist So you go to it you go to a text

55:20

You never even you never even admit You never even you never even touch on The nature of the perfection of the work of Christ in Hebrews 7 8 what you can't because of the

55:35

Roman Catholic you don't have a finished work. Anyway You've got you've got the mythology of the mass You've got transubstantiation

55:44

Yeah, that's why it's sort of hard To you know sit here and go Oh, let's let's think about the exegesis being offered by the

55:52

Roman Catholic here when you when you actually make the argumentation for stuff like that But but you don't go to those texts

56:03

He will Try to touch briefly on Romans a it's it's it's extremely shallow just skips over the reality of it

56:12

We'll see it when we when we when we look at it, but again, just just the surface level argumentation here is is astounding

56:20

They can choose between a belief in the man -made and anti -christian doctrine of limited atonement or a belief in the

56:25

Word of God Keep in mind that they can't pick both because if they pick this limited atonement Then they're going against the Word of God if they pick the

56:31

Word of God And they're going against this limited atonement for anyone interested in how to be Christian Christians choose the Word of God Okay, so we already know that mr.

56:37

White's end goal is completely false His limited atonement theory is not something you're gonna find in the Bible It is not a truth found in Romans 8, but let's rewind now back to where we started and see why mr

56:45

White is making this mistake One of those trues is laid out for us here in Romans chapter 8 and see if when we read it

56:52

You can recognize what it is Let's look at the golden chain of redemption. Let's dive right into the the meat of Romans 8.

56:59

All right So today we're gonna be looking at something that Calvin is referred to as the golden chain of redemption Take it away Jimmy and we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love

57:08

God to those who Are called according to his purpose For those who before knew he also predestined to become conformed the image of his son

57:15

So that he would be the firstborn among many brethren These whom he predestined he also called these whom he called he also justified and these whom he justified he also glorified

57:25

What then shall we say to these things if God is for us who is against us? He who did not spare his own son, but delivered him over for us all

57:33

How will he not also with him freely give us all things who will bring a charge against God's elect God is the one who justifies who is the one who condemns

57:40

Christ Jesus he who died Yes, rather who was raised was the right hand of God who also intercedes for us

57:47

Absolutely, no argument there. Mr. White just read straight from the Bible if mr White would do that all the time and we wouldn't be making these videos correcting him

57:53

It's when he goes off book and starts adding the word of white into the Word of God That's when the Christians step in but what mr.

57:59

White just read there is 100 % Christian Christians believe everything that mr White just read so giving credit where credit is due.

58:04

Mr White just did a great job at teaching Christianity because he read straight from the Bible That's such an easy way to learn

58:09

Christianity don't which of course makes us go. And so why are you Roman Catholic again? Does you reject so let's go check.

58:16

So when you're when you're Quoting from your Pope when you're quoting from encyclicals, that means you're not being

58:23

Christian, right? No, of course you would say the Bible teaches all the rest that stuff too, but we're looking for consistency and it's gonna be pretty

58:32

Pretty hard to find there The words around just read what's in the

58:37

Bible Do you know which other Calvinist can do a great job at reading directly from the Bible Jeff Durbin Romans chapter 8?

58:43

We're at the golden chain of redemption. Actually before we listen to him start reading from the Bible Let's take a look at that phrase that him and mr White are saying this golden chain of redemption the phrase golden chain of redemption is found nowhere in the entire

58:52

Bible Obviously, not everything has to be found in the Bible You can't even find the New Testament books listed in the Bible the list of books that Chris say here we go

58:58

So so if we use a phrase to describe the beautiful act of God, that's what we call it golden The golden chain, right?

59:08

I don't know who came up with it But it is it is a chain. It's not brass

59:16

It's it's meant to be, you know precious So if you describe something like this, this is an argument against sola scriptura

59:25

If your understanding of soul scripture is so twisted and so shallow and so errant to think that's an argument against soul scripture

59:32

Or that you would actually be willing to twist something to work You know, we use phrases not found the Bible that means the soul scripture is not true.

59:38

Well, then I have a real Concern that you actually accurately understand soul scriptura and your arguments aren't very good

59:46

It's for their New Testament is actually an unbiblical tradition and that's unbiblical as in not found in the Bible not anti -biblical

59:52

Which is going against the Bible So even though it's not automatically a bad thing that something's not found in the Bible just know for now that the phrase golden chain

59:57

Of redemption is not found anywhere in the Bible. We'll see if that matters later. But for now, let's just listen to Jeff Reed I'm gonna read you the passage

01:00:03

Romans 8 29 is actually where we're at today. Watch what it says here It says for those whom he foreknew

01:00:09

He also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son In order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and those whom he predestined

01:00:17

He also called and those whom he called he also justified and those whom he justified

01:00:22

He also glorified we call that the golden chain of redemption in a theological biz

01:00:28

Just like James White Jeff Durbin just did a great job at reading directly from the Bible if you want to know how to be Christian then listening to what

01:00:33

Jeff and James just read there out of Romans 8 is a great way to start learning about Christianity they both did an awesome job at reading what

01:00:38

I was gonna read to you anyway So now I don't even have to do that anything else Jeff notice that the terminology here is something that God does

01:00:45

Again score and points here Jeff got it, right? Notice that the terminology here is something that God does Romans 8 is talking about God It says that he foreknew he predestined he called he justified he glorified fairly simple thing to notice

01:00:56

But yes, great job to you Jeff for pointing that out Did you catch that did you notice that in a text that everything in the text is something that God is doing not?

01:01:03

You again Jeff nails it that's correct Everything in that text of Romans 29 and 30 is something that God is doing not you.

01:01:10

It's a very good Jeff I just make sure we're on the same page here does mr. White agree with all this this is a golden chain and that all those who experience the beginning

01:01:17

Those who experience the act and all these are actions of God. They're all finite verbs where God is acting God is the one who does all these things cool

01:01:24

So we can all agree that these are all things that God is doing God is the one who does all these things It says that God foreknows.

01:01:30

Yep. That's what says God predestined God calls that's also in there God justified do you see what

01:01:36

I mean when I say it's next to impossible to meaningfully respond to videos like this because 90 % of it is a waste of time he has just played both

01:01:46

Jeff and I reading the same text and It's just I don't know in in a rather condescending mocking fashion.

01:01:55

Hey, congratulations. You read that, right? Oh What what what uses this? That that's why

01:02:01

I've resisted even wasting the time because you can't help but waste time

01:02:07

Because eventually he gets to a point eventually here we're actually you get to the key issue when he starts stacking his cups up and Then he puts other cups over here and never even tries that doesn't try to substantiate why he does that That's where he violates the text.

01:02:22

That's where it all falls apart Well, I'll point that out But you got to go through all this stuff to get there or you'll be accused of skipping the important parts man

01:02:30

But it's just such a it's it's this is Ahmed D dotting this, you know, it's just I'm gonna make myself look good by You know manipulating

01:02:38

The time it's just it just takes forever Yeah, he does

01:02:44

God glorifies. No arguments there. You cannot break that beautiful chain I have no intention of breaking any chain whether beautiful ugly or in between not to say that this chain isn't beautiful or that it's

01:02:53

Ugly or whatever. It's just that beautiful is more of an opinion term. Whereas one person might say oh, yeah, that's beautiful Another person might say all right back to the main point though I'm not interested in breaking any chain that is found in Romans 8 we call it the golden chain

01:03:03

Yeah about that these two Calvinists call it the golden chain at no point Does the Bible ever refer to this golden chain first off?

01:03:09

Let's look at the word golden this word golden is more of a marketing technique than anything That's actually useful to this conversation as Jeff stated previously the golden chain is what they refer to it in the theological bits

01:03:18

We call that the golden chain of redemption in a theological biz So from a marketing standpoint golden chain is gonna sound a lot better than just chain.

01:03:27

This is just an advertising trick It doesn't matter what color this chain is. It could be brown. It could be purple. It could be rainbow colored

01:03:32

It doesn't matter so we can it amazes me. He didn't even get that to get get that point He didn't even get that point the the point is that you know, the

01:03:41

Bible actually uses the term Golden for for a reason, you know, the purifying of your faith is as gold purified in the fire, you know that there's

01:03:51

It you know, why don't we just go ahead and leave that down there instead of taking it full screen

01:03:58

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so I can sort of respond without having to start and stop all the time by just going

01:04:05

Golden part of this because it doesn't help us at all So let's focus on the portion of this that actually means something Let's look at the term chain is what is written in Romans 8 a chain.

01:04:13

Yes, it is. Great job guys. You nailed it I don't know why you put golden in front of it But it is a chain a chain can be a series of things connected or following in succession

01:04:22

This is the type of chain that Romans 8 gives us. I've said many times many many times

01:04:28

Just follow the pronouns in this text just follow from Great idea. Let's follow those pronouns for those.

01:04:35

Oh, that's a pronoun. So this will represent those Whom he foreknew. Okay, so he foreknew that so this is those whom he foreknew.

01:04:43

He also predestined Alright, so he predestined those whom he foreknew to become conformed to the image of his son

01:04:50

So that he would be the firstborn among many brethren and these that's another pronoun these we're talking about these ones here because it says

01:04:56

These okay before he puts the next covenant, please notice what he just skipped here. I mean this this part sort of important We need to we need to note what what he just skipped here

01:05:07

It was sort of like it was sort of like dealt with like it was just sort of a passing thing But notice predestined to what?

01:05:15

To be conformed the image of his son now what he's gonna do later on Hey, and this is this is the Roman Catholic argument and I think

01:05:23

I was debating this before he was born I don't know when he was born. I can't tell his ages, but December of 1990 no, no, no, no, no, not that far.

01:05:36

Not that far. Come on Not that old but the debate with Jerry Matatix Northwest Community Church, if you listen to Jerry Matatix's presentation at least

01:05:48

Jerry recognizing was debate actually got the point Considerably faster than this kid does.

01:05:53

Okay But this is their own Catholic idea that this is only about the elect

01:06:02

But you have other kinds of Christians You have Christians who are called and Christians who are justified who will not persevere

01:06:11

But that's the whole argument it's the way he's gonna do here in a little while is he's gonna put Called and justified as separate cups.

01:06:19

He's got little cups. He's made up. He's got son. He's got called over here and Then he's gonna have called justified he's not gonna find this in the golden chain because he can't because it's not there and It's violate.

01:06:31

This is where he violates the taxes where he teaches something against Scripture and Against what's being taught here?

01:06:37

That's why he's that's why he's even addressing this it's because he has to make room for the Roman Catholic sacramental system and it's sacramental failure

01:06:44

Because you have people who are justified who are then lost Because the grace of justification be destroyed by the commission of immortal sin.

01:06:51

Well, at least it couldn't historic Orthodox Roman Catholic theology again with the current Pope who knows

01:06:58

But we can just only go with what was taught up till now But we actually can't because the

01:07:03

Pope interprets all that it's it's that mess but anyway, so in the process

01:07:09

What he skips however is predestined what? To be conformed the image of his son

01:07:16

You cannot be called you cannot be justified without that being a part of it a person who's justified is

01:07:28

Conformed is being conformed the image of his son So the idea here is

01:07:36

The beauty of Romans 8 and that the reason that Romans 8 ends with the the glorious who can separate us in love of Christ Is because God is doing all this and there's a purpose in his doing all this including the calling and the justification and it's all in Jesus and being conformed to his image it's all about the elect and this calling is a

01:08:00

Specific calling that always results in justifications. He breaks the chain doesn't realize

01:08:06

Or doesn't even recognize it Because he puts he creates other chains, but in the process what he does is he comes up with a different kind of calling

01:08:17

Doesn't recognize this is the affection Affectual efficient calling the power of the

01:08:22

Holy Spirit because you don't have Affectual calling in that sense within Roman Catholicism because it has to be the synergistic system or at least his understanding

01:08:31

Roman Catholicism Whatever that might be. All right, we press on here Predestined so these ones these ones whom he predestined who are those whom he foreknew

01:08:41

He also called and these that's another pronoun these whom he called So these ones that he called maybe not this one that he called and maybe not this one that he called

01:08:49

But these these ones, okay, there it is right there. Do you see that? Where does he get that?

01:08:55

Where's he getting that from the text? He's just taken a term out of the text a part of the chain

01:09:05

Because predestined equals called Where do you get called? That's not predestined not from Romans 8.

01:09:12

Well, I get it from someplace else where See, this is this is where the external theology external

01:09:22

Theories are coming in and He's thrown these other cups in here and we're all sitting here going.

01:09:28

I thought we were in Romans 8 You're not in Romans 8 anymore, where do you get someone who's called who wasn't predestined?

01:09:37

Could you could you show us that because this is the effectual call So you have to theorize there's another kind of calling.

01:09:45

Well, maybe many are called but few are chosen Well that chosen there would be Paul's terminology of the effectual call going back to predestination.

01:09:54

So What what are you gonna show us where Paul has this calling in a soteriological sense?

01:10:02

That is not the result of predestination Because you've got a called over there and I got a called over there that calls not gonna have a justification

01:10:09

He's good about stick one in there called justification on the other one Purely Roman Catholic theology nothing to do the

01:10:16

Romans chapter 8 at all could never substantiate that at Romans chapter 8 and he knows it He knows it But you just throw him in there

01:10:24

While accusing the rest of us of actually not believing all the Bible. Yeah, which is sort of interesting He called if we're following the pronouns these whom he called which are also these whom he predestined and these whom he foreknew

01:10:34

These whom he called he also justified and these thrown out again these whom he justified he also glorified

01:10:41

So when you do as mr. White has said to do many many times I've said many times many many times and you follow the pronouns just follow the pronouns in this text

01:10:50

You can see that if you have this starting point of the chain Which is God foreknowing these people then you get all the rest of the chain now

01:10:56

Can I break this chain now if this called person was for no luck? Hold on Did you catch it? Did you see it?

01:11:03

It was it was a it was just a little edit Let me let me this is so hard to do

01:11:11

Okay now see right there What's over here stop that what's over here in the called one

01:11:18

There's two empty called cups There's nothing in the one on the left

01:11:25

Now now watch again. I'm just gonna go regular speed here so you can see this watch watch what happens starting point of the chain

01:11:31

Which is God foreknowing these people then you get all the rest of the chain now, can

01:11:36

I break this chain? No, if this person was foreknown and predestined to see that just by editing all of a sudden justification pops in Where did that come from from Paul nowhere?

01:11:48

Can you substantiate that Paul? No, you can't But poof by video editing you can and People find this so impressive

01:12:00

Wow I never thought of all that before and our forefathers would be watching this going you are kidding, right?

01:12:11

to catch that just poof In pops justification out of nowhere.

01:12:19

Yeah, there you go Landon Romans 8 and this is the final link in that chain

01:12:24

There's no avoiding that this cold person will be glorified as for these two cold people They're not guaranteed to be justified or glorified.

01:12:30

They might be justified, but they might not be This is just somebody who was called and then nothing else happened after that.

01:12:36

They weren't justified They weren't glorified and they didn't have to be because they were called They weren't one of these people who were foreknown predestined and then called they were just called like this person

01:12:44

This person was called and then justified. But again, they weren't one of these people who were foreknown predestined and then called Well, I don't know about you, but I think he realizes

01:12:51

I think he realizes That he is on ground way out of Romans chapter 8 here

01:12:56

He and he sort of hurrying up trying to let's let's just try to get this in here real real quick Cuz I cuz

01:13:03

I really I can't come up with anything to substantiate this from Romans chapter 8 so Yes, yes,

01:13:10

I believe the the magician kind of guys call this a slight of hand This is slight of hand slight of hand.

01:13:17

This is slight a video hand. Yes, it was And now it's slight of theological hand

01:13:23

Because how do you have people who are called who aren't predestined? Well, Paul wouldn't understand that would he no

01:13:29

Cuz you know, if you just read Romans after I you know, you know, it's just you know, just read this part, you know, just Okay, yeah, that's right there so in Roman Catholic theology

01:13:42

You have this idea being called and justified but then not glorified But if you accept this you've broken the chain

01:13:50

His whole argument is well, that's just about these people. It's just about those whom God foreknew

01:13:57

So from this perspective again, you can have people who God didn't foreknow he didn't predestined But then for some reason he calls them and he justifies them in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ Which which by the way from Paul's theology requires union with Christ Which is which is goes directly back to predestination and election

01:14:18

You can't avoid that in Ephesians chapter 1 but then who will not be glorified

01:14:26

And see what they're what he's trying to do here By the way, folks, is that the golden chain is a thorough refutation of Roman Catholic soteriology

01:14:34

Because the fact that in Roman Catholic soteriology just as they do not have the blessed man Because of non -imputation of sin in Romans 4 here you can be justified in Roman Catholicism, but not glorified

01:14:45

So the chain can be broken. So what he's trying to do is undercut that and say well Well, that chain

01:14:50

Romans 8 is is only about is only about those who are predestined You can have those who are called and justified but who do not achieve glorification

01:15:01

Though I have to wonder If you believe in free will couldn't you have someone who having been justified?

01:15:10

would remain faithful and Then hence be glorified So wouldn't you have to have the door open to the possibility of someone being glorified who was never foreknown and predestined.

01:15:20

I Can't see how you could avoid that But again now we're talking pure speculation we ain't talking

01:15:26

New Testament anymore. We're not talking apostolic We're not talking the teaching and this is again Why Rome denies soul scripture because they teach so many non -apostolic things they have to have another source

01:15:35

You can they cannot be limited to apostolic what comes from the Apostles Which again remember

01:15:41

I asked I asked Mitch Packwood Long time ago 1999.

01:15:47

Can you show me a single word the Jesus ever said? That has been defined infallibly by the magisterium of the

01:15:54

Roman Catholic Church. It's not found scripture No, how about anything the Apostles ever said? No soul scripture is important It only tells us about a specific group of people these people this bottom link here

01:16:08

It tells us that these people experience all these things Romans 8 doesn't tell us what happens to all called people if we follow the pronouns in Romans 8

01:16:16

Which was a great idea from mr. White. We cannot logically know what happens to all called people Have you noticed no substantiation whatsoever for any of those other two piles came from the single cup

01:16:27

But yeah, just he's put out there even had to sort of slide the hand throw justification They didn't even didn't even explain it just throws it in there for the

01:16:34

Nothing in the text nothing in the chain at all The whole idea is I'm gonna introduce these other categories that Paul does not introduce.

01:16:42

It's found nowhere in the text of Scripture It's gonna go against Ephesians chapter one. It's could go against Romans chapter 9, etc.

01:16:48

It doesn't matter That's not my ultimate authority. Anyways, that's that's that's

01:16:53

I guess You know putting up with all the other silliness. At least we've gotten to that part to be able to see

01:17:01

Where the real problem was? Recalled person is going to end up in this chain You can say that every person who was for known predestined in this way and called end up in this chain

01:17:10

But not just whoever was called ends up in this chain because that's not what the text says Is this called person in the golden chain? Yes, they are.

01:17:16

Is this called person in the golden chain? No, they're not Is this called person in the golden chain? No again, logically if you follow the pronouns this called person cannot be removed from this chain

01:17:24

However, you can't just shove every called person into this chain. It doesn't work that way if they're caught it doesn't work that way

01:17:29

This is external authority. No argumentation substantiating us. Nothing that there is that this calling which is based upon God's predestination

01:17:37

Show me something show me where in Romans chapter 8 that that term Kaleo is used outside of predestination.

01:17:43

You can't It's not there that's where your teaching is unbiblical you are teaching things

01:17:50

You are teaching the words of how to be Christian of this guy's name is you're teaching your words Rather than the words of Scripture.

01:17:56

You've been caught out. You've been damaged. We've shown it to everybody But that's why you're

01:18:01

Roman Catholic. I Mean, that's your your own church says you don't have to limit yourself to what's found in Scripture So if you you know, it's well anyway,

01:18:11

I think we've shown that I'm gonna pick it back Just feed back up because we've got to get this thing done someday Aim and that's where they're at if they're called and they're not in the chain

01:18:19

Then they're not gonna get in the chain So perhaps a more accurate name for Romans 8 instead of the golden chain of redemption We can lose golden because it's just a color that was slapped onto the thing and we can change chain to something that's more direct

01:18:28

Into the point which is conditional statement Romans 8 gives us the conditional statement of redemption If this then this then this then this then this you can always tell when you're talking with Roman Catholic Because The idea that God can save to his own glory

01:18:47

Will be repulsive to them. I I've told the story many times of a lady This was back when we had offices on 16th

01:18:53

Street in Camelback It's now a storage facility but I a lady from the

01:19:01

Keno Institute Wanted to interview a fundamentalist and so she came over and we sat in that front office

01:19:10

World's worst carpet man. It's shocking. We didn't get sued for how many people tripped on that carpet. Remember how bad it was? and Once we got to the point of my explaining to her

01:19:22

God sovereignty and salvation. I remember not only was she shocked just stunned

01:19:28

That anyone could ever believe in him like that but she

01:19:35

She looked at me and she said I would never worship a god like that and I looked back at her and said

01:19:42

I Know that's exactly why God calls you to repent and to believe because you won't worship a god like that unless your heart's changed and She just didn't obviously like that very much but same thing here

01:19:57

You can take this text that glorifies

01:20:02

God's power in salvation and Leaves no room for human

01:20:09

Addition merit of any kind And what's he doing with a bunch of plastic cups?

01:20:17

Opening the door for human accomplishment Opening the door for some other

01:20:26

Understanding so it now becomes the conditional statement not

01:20:33

God's unconditional glory But now the conditional statement of redemption because Rome doesn't have a finished work.

01:20:40

They have to do this. It's a tragedy It's a tragedy That's Romanism for you.

01:20:48

Yeah. Yeah rich is going. Hey moving those cups all over the place. Yeah, that's Salvation's under one of them.

01:20:55

Yeah, good luck if you can find it, you know Then this Romans 8 doesn't give us any conditional statement for this or this only this now

01:21:04

They wonder why would God call someone if they weren't gonna be part of this conditional statement of redemption? Well, God calls both of these people because God's giving us a choice.

01:21:12

We can either ultimate There you go That'll make certain people down in the

01:21:17

Dallas area happy. See it's all about free. Will there you go

01:21:24

There you go. That's why That's why those of you that won't accept what the

01:21:30

Bible teaches on the subject of man's enslaved Well will always be closer to Rome on this matter than you will the

01:21:40

New Testament. I Hope it makes you uncomfortable It should make you uncomfortable

01:21:46

To see just how much you share in common with Rome on this subject because if you hey, you're on Erasmus aside not

01:21:53

Luther's side You you don't you still stand with the Reformation? You stand against it on something.

01:21:59

It's very very important very foundational and I've I've got brothers that I love in the

01:22:04

Lord They're on the wrong side of that issue. And that's why I warned him about it It doesn't mean I'm gonna beat him over the head and kick him out of the kingdom because I can't it's not my prerogative

01:22:12

But I do warn you about it Paul writes the Thessalonians finally then brethren We request and exhort you in the

01:22:18

Lord Jesus that as you receive from us instruction as to how you ought to walk and please God just as you actually do walk that you excel still more for you know

01:22:25

What commandments we gave you now if you're wondering why he's reading this that has nothing to do with the current subject Again the synergist if they see anything in Scripture of Commandments assume the ability so here speaking to regenerated renewed

01:22:40

Christians Who according to Paul in writing to the Thessalonians God chose them from before the foundation of the earth?

01:22:48

So on so forth divine election, but once you're in drop of the Holy Spirit God gives you these commandments and that spirit drives you to his law and you desire to be obedient they just see that and because they don't have a biblical anthropology the deadness of man and sin and What the nature of regeneration that taking out the heart of stone giving a heart of flesh like that they just assume well if we can

01:23:09

Do these things and we've always had that ability to do these things. That's that's why in fact a little bit later on When dealing with Romans 8 he's actually jumped the first Kings chapter 3 as his rebuttal section the idea of context and category and Meaningful exegesis utterly unknown in this young man's experience.

01:23:32

Just just not even it's not even there It's it's sad to see honestly He of the

01:23:37

Lord Jesus for this is the will of God your sanctification That is that you abstain from sexual immorality that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor not in lawful passion like the

01:23:47

Gentiles who do not know God and that no man transgress and defraud his brother in the matter because the Lord is the Avenger in all these things just as we also told you before and solemnly warned you for God has not called us for the purpose of impurity but in Sanctification so he who rejects this is not rejecting man

01:24:00

But the God who gives his Holy Spirit to you so God didn't call them for the purpose of impurity But God did call them in sanctification now is that a call they have to accept

01:24:07

No, the next verse even tells us so he who rejects this is not rejecting man But the God who gives his

01:24:12

Holy Spirit to you so now that we know a lot more about what biblical okay, so let's let's stop for a second and Talk about that for a second.

01:24:19

So notice what he's doing. He's trying to create this idea See, we just have this free will and you know God's just giving us divine suggestions and so on so forth and what's

01:24:28

Paul saying if you reject God's revelation? what that does is tells us about who you are and what you are and again the idea of of Regeneration remember in Roman Catholicism, you can be regenerate unregenerate regenerate under there justified unjustified justified unjustified.

01:24:44

It's it's Because you don't have an Objective finished work of Christ and you don't have a meaningful doctrine of union with Christ is based upon God's divine election you've got a mess and That's how you can come up with this stuff.

01:25:03

That's how you're sitting there going Wait a minute what he just read didn't have anything to do with what he was talking about Yeah, he's just making an application based upon inappropriate categories that ignore most of Paul's teaching and now he now noticed biblical

01:25:14

Christianity versus Calvinist biz back to the real reason why he's

01:25:19

Torturing scripture this way and that is try to promote his his perspective He teaches let's check out this

01:25:26

Calvinist biz again and see what they're up to with our golden chain marketing campaign We call it the golden chain. It can't be broken because it's

01:25:31

God's work. That's why it can't be broken It's not dependent upon your will your action your failures your successes.

01:25:38

Well, now hold on there That's not entirely true part of what he said was true. That's God's work That's correct. All of those elements are things that God's doing.

01:25:45

That's God's work. No question there But what about this other thing that Jeff is saying? It's not dependent upon your will your action your failures your successes

01:25:52

Jeff has absolutely no biblical support for that statement. That is 100 % the word of Dervitt that is now, of course

01:25:59

We could sit here and we could point out Ephesians chapter 1 and walk through it and This young man.

01:26:09

I'm sorry with all due respect in his cowboy hat Has no earthly idea

01:26:15

How he could in any meaningful fashion respond to the functional exegesis of that text or Many other texts that we could go to a little bit later on He's gonna not only jump off to a completely irrelevant text at first King 3

01:26:32

But he's also going to jump over Romans chapter 9 because it won't fit as his parameters either

01:26:39

But in all of this He just wants to try to create these false dichotomies so he can put graphics up like this word of God word of Durbin Or myself which whichever one it might it might be yes, it's disrespectful.

01:26:54

It's immature It's childish all of those things But if we can if we can try to put the cowboy hats and the silliness apart aside what he's doing

01:27:01

He's been taught by Rome. This is the the silliness here is Rome's silliness this is a young man's been deceived by false religious system and He may arrogantly rejoice in that deception, but the real issue is that false religious system not just his immaturity and his behavior

01:27:22

That's what needs to be seen in in these situations God Jeff is taking the what which both sides agree on and Jeff is assuming the why so first off.

01:27:33

What is the what? What is God doing Romans a tells us God for new God? This is really gonna get very confusing because the young man really struggles to understand what we're talking about here

01:27:42

Because the biblical answer of the the why is not man's free will it's

01:27:49

God's glorification that's that's not only what what Paul has already taught in Romans and is going to Emphasize Romans chapter 9 which he doesn't seem to be a part of his

01:27:59

Bible because he never even mentions it but It's Taught elsewhere as this all

01:28:07

The praise of his glorious grace. It's just it's just laid out so plainly But Rome has no room for that Rome has has put herself arrogantly in the center of God's process of salvation the the sacramental system is how

01:28:25

Rome meets out God's grace and So you you have to have quote -unquote free will to have a sacramental system, that's what it's all about That's what it's all about God called

01:28:41

God justified God glorified. These are a bunch of what's what happened? God did all these things, but why did

01:28:46

God do with these? What's the word of Durbin says this we call it the golden chain? It can't be broken because it's God's work

01:28:52

That's why it can't be broken It's not dependent upon your will your action your failures your successes

01:28:58

Notice how Jeff didn't supply a single verse from the Bible to back up his theory He told us a bunch of what and of course, you know,

01:29:04

I don't Jeff has provided hours and hours of consistent biblical exegesis backing up his his position

01:29:17

We all have But you need to understand for the

01:29:22

Roman Catholic all that biblical exegesis exegesis is irrelevant The ultimate authority is not biblical exegesis.

01:29:29

It's not the teaching of those those texts It is the the statements of of the Roman system, and that's really where the issues coming down here

01:29:38

Which we already knew we already knew God did all these things But then he goes on to eliminate a bunch of reasons why

01:29:43

God did these what's it's not dependent upon your will your action your Failures your successes and he supplies absolutely no support for this

01:29:51

He's just teaching the Word of Durbin the Word of God on the other hand doesn't agree with the Word of Durbin Shocker nothing new there to give an example of what's happening here one

01:29:58

Kings 3 verse It tells us that the Lord appeared to Solomon in a dream and God said to him

01:30:03

I give you a wise and discerning mind That is the what God is the one doing this action God is the one who gave

01:30:09

Solomon a wise and discerning mind Solomon didn't give himself a wise and discerning mind Solomon got a wise and discerning mind because God gave it to him

01:30:15

So we now know the what but from that very little piece of the Bible that we just read We don't know the why yet same as with that little piece of the

01:30:21

Bible that we've looked at in Romans 8 Here's a study tip You shouldn't just read a tiny piece of the Bible like Romans 8 and then fill in all the blanks that are left over with Wild assumptions now in Romans 8

01:30:29

Jeff jumps to the completely unsupported conclusion that the why is not your will your action your failure or your Success, it's not dependent upon your will your action your failures your successes and Jeff makes these claims based solely on the fact

01:30:41

No, obviously do I I hope I don't I don't need to really mention at this point That Jess point and the point of the

01:30:50

Apostle Paul is that if anyone's ever glorified It's not because your will

01:30:57

In Roman Catholicism it is it's not because your action your own Catholicism it is it's not because of your failures.

01:31:02

Well The Roman Catholic Sacramental system is there to allegedly make up for those failures actually, even though those failures end up adding to your temporal punishment of sin

01:31:13

But that's nothing Not because your successes it is But for Paul it's not

01:31:20

So he's missing all of that Because he's blind to it. We just need to pray for the young man You know,

01:31:26

I mean, it's it's easy. It's easy when you have someone who's just so flippantly Handling or mishandling abusing

01:31:33

God's truth as he does here to just You know, but the young man needs salvation.

01:31:39

He's he's got a tremendous amount of self -righteousness and needs to realize If you're going to mass over and over again, you got the wrong sacrifice one time f -apox one time not not

01:31:52

Represented not a perpetuatory sacrifice represented over and over one time if you got to go back over and over again wrong one wrong one

01:32:02

Yeah Moments eight tells us about things that God has done on his own

01:32:07

So Jeff's logic here is if God did something on his own then it wasn't dependent on your will your action your failure or your

01:32:13

Success, so let's see how Jeff well Let's point something out here Jeff's logic.

01:32:18

What's actually Paul's logic? I I don't think Jeff will mind if I point out he's just simply repeating apostolic teaching but one things he didn't mention is

01:32:28

That these are all past tense verbs So so But we aren't glorified yet But God's intention is so perfect that it can be said that we're already seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus the reality of our union with Christ is so perfect These are things

01:32:46

God has done and it and define it You know the the final link in the chain is glorification. The Saints will be glorified

01:32:52

So this is if you're glorified, it's because you can trace it backwards these other things and it was what

01:32:59

God did and and Paul's point and Jeff following him is If God did something on his own, which is bring about the perfection of a certain people in Jesus Christ, which is the gospel

01:33:12

Titus chapter 2 Then it wasn't dependent upon your will your action your failures your successes.

01:33:19

Yeah, because this was done eternity past That's the point of the predestination part

01:33:25

This was before you existed. So it can't be dependent upon any of those things. So in that category now, what's he good?

01:33:32

What's he gonna do? He jumps off Somewhere into first Kings what has nothing to do with the subject

01:33:41

Nothing to this is it's painful to watch it's painful to watch but it's all

01:33:47

I've got It works out in reality We know that the what is God gave Solomon a wise and discerning mind

01:33:53

So according to Jeff's logic since God is doing the action on his own Then the why must not be based on someone else's will or action or failure or success

01:34:01

But let's read more from the Bible though Because we've already seen in past videos that just logic can be terribly flawed at times God said ask what

01:34:07

I shall give you and Solomon said give your servant Therefore an understanding mind to govern your people that I may discern between good and evil

01:34:13

It pleased the Lord that Solomon had asked this and God said to him because you have asked this I now do according to your

01:34:18

Word behold, I give you a wise and discerning mind So according to the Bible the what is that God gave

01:34:23

Solomon a wise and discerning mind and the why is because Solomon asked for This which means that the why here actually is based on someone else's actions

01:34:30

So we can already see that Jeff's logic is terribly flawed. It is illogical to assume that any action If if we had an

01:34:39

Eisegesis Award if we had a could you possibly?

01:34:46

Face plant worse when it comes to category errors award the young man would definitely be a finalist

01:34:54

Definitely be a finalist. Congratulations This is this is what Rome does to your exegetical mind it

01:35:01

Really I Is not dependent on your will your action your failure or your success because the

01:35:07

Bible proves that an action made by God can be Dependent on your will your action your failure or your success

01:35:12

God even tell Solomon I now do according to your word Solomon didn't make God do this action But God is doing this action because Solomon asked

01:35:19

God to do it God even said because you have asked this I give you a wise and discerning mind and if you keep reading just a few verses later

01:35:24

God goes on to tell Solomon if you will walk in my ways keeping my Commandments as your father David walked then

01:35:30

I will lengthen your days So again, God is doing the what all on his own God's the one lengthening Solomon's days But seeing as this is very clearly an if -then conditional statement

01:35:37

But what is dependent on Solomon's will or action or failure or success? So instead of just blindly putting our faith in just terrible logic

01:35:44

Let's do some actual research in the Bible to find out what the why is for the what's in Romans 8 all that Jeff has to do in order to figure out that his version of the why is

01:35:51

Incorrect is continue reading in Romans when you get to Romans 11 Paul says I say What what happened what what happened to the rest of Romans 8 and 9

01:36:04

Mr. How to be Christian cowboy man You can't even touch that can you it price scares you to death

01:36:14

Because the why is answered right right there

01:36:21

It's it's right there. I don't know how you could miss it In fact,

01:36:28

I'm gonna freeze that there and Well, look at that we didn't we didn't have to change anything is it all is it all there

01:36:40

Yeah, maybe it's pretty close What then shall we say to these things?

01:36:47

If God is for us We were following the pronouns, right?

01:36:53

Yeah, if God is for us who is against us You want to switch over this side since I'm gonna be looking at look in this direction

01:37:03

So I don't have to look looking back forth Unless you've turned it off or something. I don't know. Oh, look at that slide

01:37:12

He did not spare his own son but delivered him over for us all

01:37:19

Who's that I hadn't I hadn't I hadn't noticed this I had not noticed this

01:37:25

Do you see what I'm saying? Which pile of cups are we dealing with?

01:37:35

This is still the same pile of cups with the foreknown predestined called justified glorified and it says he did not spare his own son, but delivered him over for who that pile of cups

01:37:50

Isn't that what particular redemption is all about? Yeah, what about those other piles?

01:37:58

Well, there aren't any other piles You made them up remember you had to edit it in, you know, there is that little flash and all sudden poof

01:38:06

There is the justification cup you you couldn't come up with that one How will he not also with him freely give us all things so does he freely give all things to every single human being because here's the atonement and Those to whom he gives his son in redemptive death.

01:38:27

He also freely gives us all things Look, I've said many times before I'll say it now again. There's two options in New Testament You either reformed or you're universalist.

01:38:36

There ain't no other consistent option none So I can see why you didn't because because what's the next line mr.

01:38:45

How to be Christian fellow Who will bring a charge against whom? God's elect

01:38:52

God is the one who justifies. Oh, wait a minute you you came up with a justification on a different line

01:39:00

But God's the one who justifies who his elect. Oh Wait a minute

01:39:06

You broke the chain because you had justification without predestination Paul doesn't understand that because see your theology doesn't come from Paul It doesn't come from this text.

01:39:18

It's being forced onto this text, which is why you have to skip over all this part Because it contradicts your teaching hmm

01:39:26

God is the one who justifies who is the one who condemns? Well, if you're justified if you're over in that other little pile called justified

01:39:34

But you don't get glorified. That means you got condemned Right You lost it

01:39:42

Christ Jesus you died. Yes rather was raised his right hand of God who also intercedes for us Does Jesus intercede for all three of your stacks of cups?

01:39:51

Upon what basis you see the beautiful thing is scripture presents a consistent hole here

01:39:58

You shred it You shred it you tear it in parts

01:40:05

For the sake of your human theology but what's more is That then leads to you know, this who will separate us the love of Christ all these beautiful things, but then

01:40:17

You skip over Romans 9 And you skip over the answer

01:40:24

To the very questions that you're going to be asking Because he talks about God's, you know, all these things here the wise

01:40:33

It does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs but on God who has mercy

01:40:40

Hmm, that would be directly relevant to what you just had up on the screen, huh? The why part yeah, that does not depend on the wasn't man's will in the list of things you say it was dependent upon How come we can only go a few sentences later and Paul saying no, no, no, no

01:40:58

No, no, it does not depend on the man who wills the man who runs But on the mercy in God It's right there

01:41:06

So then he has mercy on whom he desires and he hardens whom he desires You will say then why does he still found fine fault for who resists his will on the contrary?

01:41:16

Who are you a man who answers back to God the thing molded will not say the mold or why'd you make me like this? Will it I see why you skipped this you had to skip this because it destroys your man -centered theology

01:41:30

But it's Paul's continuation before he gets to Romans chapter 11 and What you've skipped is now that he lays the foundation and eight and nine and ten he begins to transition into the

01:41:45

Proclamation of the gospel if this is the case if God has always had this freedom to choose his people

01:41:51

Then why should we proclaim the gospel? We are the instruments in his hands And so yes, he does warn people do not be obstinate

01:41:58

Do not when we go out and proclaim the gospel you and I don't know well not you and I we don't know

01:42:04

Christians do not know who the elect are. So we proclaim the gospel to everyone and We say do not

01:42:13

Be hardened in your attitude toward anyone do not look down upon anyone Because if you become complacent, hey says to the

01:42:23

Gentiles you want it You want to boast against the Jews God can harden you too as he's hardened them Boasting is not a it's not a sign of the presence of the

01:42:32

Holy Spirit in a person's life not in that way So you skipped all that and moved the section that's talking about Classes of people and you skip the very part that actually answers your question

01:42:42

Why would you do that because you have an external authority? You have an external authority rather than the actual text scripture.

01:42:49

Oops. Sorry Did it did a quick time player and ooh, we're right back.

01:42:55

I like that that that works well I'm glad we can do that. All right We have seven minutes and 16 seconds, which is less than that if I go at 1 .3

01:43:06

Well, has he may it never be for I too am an Israelite a descendant of Abraham of the tribe of Benjamin God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew or do you know what the scripture says in the passage about Elijah?

01:43:17

How he pleads with God against Israel. So Paul starts off by talking about Israel He then says I say then they did not stumble so as to fall today

01:43:23

May it never be but by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles to make them jealous Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the

01:43:31

Gentiles How much more will their fulfillment be but I am speaking to you who are Gentiles All right So Romans is being written to the

01:43:37

Romans from Paul Paul then tells these Romans that salvation has come to the Gentiles and for this next Part he specifies I am speaking to you who are

01:43:43

Gentiles. So when Paul refers to someone as you in here He's talking to the Romans, but he's specifically talking to the Gentiles if the first piece of dough is catch that one

01:43:56

There were places where he spoke to the Jews too I Mean the the eisegetical

01:44:05

Failures in this young man's training are astounding There are places

01:44:13

Romans chapter 2 where he specifically addresses the Jews Romans chapter 11 at that point he's talking to the

01:44:22

Gentiles, but you can't just oh look I can take a phrase from Romans 1 and I can hook it over here to Romans 11

01:44:28

Then I can make stuff up as I go. That's called Eisegesis reading into the text rather than reading the text the way it was intended from from the beginning.

01:44:39

So Yeah, that's that's a real bad example The lump is also and if the root is holy the branches are too

01:44:47

But if some of the branches were broken off and you the Gentiles being a wild olive So the Gentiles are the wild olive were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree

01:44:56

Do not be arrogant toward the branches But if you are arrogant remember that it is not you who supports the root but the root supports you you will say then branches were

01:45:03

Broken off so that I might be grafted in quite right. They were broken off for their unbelief But you stand by your faith

01:45:09

So remember this is about salvation coming to the Gentiles this root and branches metaphor is talking about their salvation by their transgression

01:45:14

Salvation has come to the Gentiles branches were broken off so that the Gentiles might be grafted in and why were branches getting broken off for Their unbelief continuing on do not be conceited

01:45:23

But fear for if God did not spare the natural branches He will not spare you either behold then the kindness and severity of God to those who fell severity

01:45:30

But to you God's kindness if you continue in his kindness, otherwise, you also will be cut off So again,

01:45:37

Paul's writing about how salvation has come to the Gentiles See how easy it is to turn this into a completely man -centered thing if you skip, you know

01:45:43

The stuff that Paul included, you know in the two chapters before Let's just start It's so sad to watch

01:45:53

Specifically to the Gentiles and he tells them how they're grafted in among the natural branches and salvation is now an option for them

01:45:58

It's an option. It's not a sure thing. What's the one word? Whoa, whoa. I mean,

01:46:04

I I'm sorry at one point three. I I I missed It's so hard to get this to do this just right ah

01:46:14

Okay, let me let me go a little slower here I forgot I didn't miss the option part I missed it must have been going too fast.

01:46:20

Let's see wise you also will be cut off So again, Paul's writing about how salvation has come to the

01:46:25

Gentiles and he's speaking specifically to the Gentiles and he tells them how they're grafted in among the natural branches and Salvation is now an option for them.

01:46:33

It's an option. It's not a sure thing. What? Did did you did you see that the term option in there he didn't

01:46:42

I didn't I didn't see that the term option in there and speaking

01:46:48

Specifically to the Gentiles and he tells them how they're grafted in among the natural branches and salvation is now an option

01:46:55

And then they I I do believe he'd be adding to the scriptures again

01:47:04

Yeah, gotcha again You having flashbacks? Is this a time for you to talk about your youth or something?

01:47:15

Oh, yeah Well, yes. Yes the Romans 9 debate Yeah, there is yeah, yeah, yeah

01:47:25

But but we done got you again using a quick edit to throw in a complete Theological point without having provided any basis for it at all and then emphasizing the part that you threw in.

01:47:37

Mm -hmm It's an option. It's not a sure thing. What's the what and the why the what is that God gives salvation?

01:47:43

That's the what but why does God do this? What why does God give salvation behold? Then the kindness and severity of God to those who fell severity

01:47:51

But to you God's kindness if you continue in his kindness, otherwise, you also will be cut off So why does

01:47:58

God do this? What why does God give people salvation according to the Bible? It's if they continue in his kindness if they have unbelief then

01:48:04

God can break them off if they fall then God doesn't have to Spare them from being broken off if they don't continue in God's kindness, then

01:48:10

God can cut them off sounds pretty severe, right? Keep on reading Otherwise, you also will be cut off and they also if they do not continue in their unbelief will be grafted in for God is

01:48:20

Able to graft them in again, so we saw the severity and we can see the kindness Yeah, God can cut people off from salvation

01:48:25

But if they do not continue in their unbelief and God is able to graft them back in again So even though the word of Durbin says this it's not dependent upon your will your action your failures your successes

01:48:35

The Word of God tells us that God's actions of salvation can be dependent on our will our actions our failures and our successes

01:48:41

Now do you see why this young man skipped Romans 9 because he doesn't believe Romans 9. He teaches the opposite of it

01:48:48

He's perverting the scriptures This is not how you handle the scriptures. He can't answer

01:48:54

Romans chapter 9 He can't make a consent because his theological system will not allow him to do so and so he asked to jump to a later discussion of Groups and Look, if if the if the church had listened to Romans chapter 11,

01:49:10

I say church externally So much of the horrific history

01:49:17

Would not have existed because there was boasting against the Jews. I mean, I just was teaching in church history and I We haven't gotten to this point in church history yet But I'm sort of mentioned it ahead of time because I was reading some books on it

01:49:31

But did you know that during the what we call today the Black Death they didn't call it the Black Death in that day

01:49:37

They call it the great mortality but starting in late 1347 through 1350 throughout almost all of Europe and it started a little bit earlier that in Muslim lands

01:49:51

At least a third of Europe possibly over half died Huge massive upheaval societal massive upheaval do you know that one of the

01:50:07

Saddest elements of that was that in many places especially like in Central Europe The Jews were blamed

01:50:20

And under torture Jews confessed that they had been putting poison in wells The thing is the plague wiped out everybody whether you used well water or whatever else that was irrelevant

01:50:34

But there were pogroms In in one place in Switzerland. I think it was in Bern I have to double -check this but I think in Bern they took all the

01:50:44

Jews in the city Put them out on a in a house on an island and burned them Uh This kind of thing took place because people didn't listen and by the way just in passing, you know, what's really interesting

01:50:57

I Saw no evidence at least, you know, I'm open to correction on this don't claim to be an expert

01:51:02

But I've been writing reading some books on this recently I've seen no evidence

01:51:08

That the Muslims because the plague hit Islamic lands Just as hard.

01:51:14

I saw no evidence the Muslims ever blamed the Jews For the plague but quote -unquote

01:51:21

Christian Europe, which was again Christian in name not in in practice

01:51:27

But that's this guy's forefathers Christian Europe did Which is you know something to keep in mind, but that was it an aside that I probably shouldn't have gone to because we're on We're not done yet.

01:51:38

But anyways, we press on There behold then the kindness and severity of God to those who fell severity

01:51:45

But to you God's kindness if you continue in his kindness Otherwise you also will be cut off and they also if they do not continue in their unbelief

01:51:53

Will be grafted in for God is able to graft them in again. So yes, God does all these things on his own This is what

01:51:58

God does. Why does God do it though? Because so there's there's a good there in other words your will your action your failures your successes is the why and What did

01:52:08

Romans 9 specifically say? No, no, no, no to all of those. That's why he skips it

01:52:14

This is eisegesis, this is Rome This is

01:52:20

Rome failing at handling the Word of God It was what you're going to do before you do it.

01:52:26

God knows who's going to continue in his kindness He knows who will have unbelief. He knows who will fall. He knows who will decide to not continue in their unbelief

01:52:32

So this is the golden chain of redemption that Romans 8 gives us you can call this the golden chain of redemption if you want You can call this the conditional statement of redemption

01:52:38

You can even call this the yellow tower of party cops with pieces of index cards taped to them of redemption It doesn't matter what you call it as long as you understand how it works

01:52:46

You can be called and you can be in the golden chain You can be called and you might not be in the golden chain. Both of those are possibilities this

01:52:53

And I just point out he gave no foundation for that. He just just threw it in there But in Rome, you don't have to worry about that.

01:53:01

Just just do it in there. Don't worry about exegesis Don't worry about a foundation, you know You know attack people who stick with the scripture is it called the word of Durban and the word of white or whatever else?

01:53:10

It might be but but you know Doesn't have to break though if this then this then this then this then this so now back to where we started

01:53:16

We already know for a fact that the Calvinist view of the limited atonement is 100 % incompatible with the Word of God So why did James White think that Romans 8 taught his theory of limited atonement?

01:53:24

Well, James White made the same mistake with this passage as Jeff Durbin did with other passages in the Bible We've looked at passages similar to this in the

01:53:29

Bible versus Jeff Durbin on the atonement The link to that is in the description if you feel like watching that but long story short James took one group of people that the

01:53:35

Bible tells us that Jesus died for and he made the mistake of assuming that Jesus only Died for this one group of people now, what is what is wrong with that?

01:53:43

Well, he's about to stumble into The text that demonstrates this see he doesn't understand

01:53:50

Because because of his theology Unbiblical theology is

01:53:56

Roman Catholic theology he does not understand the intimate relationship that exists between The redemptive work of Christ the purpose of the

01:54:06

Father the work of the Spirit the whole concept of union with Christ the the foundation of justification because in his is his

01:54:15

He would got justified by getting sprinkles a baby the idea of union with Christ the idea of the work of the

01:54:25

Spirit regeneration granting of faith the Forensic nature which is brought out in the text on the screen, but he's not gonna see that that's all missing for him

01:54:35

That's all missing for him. That's why he can make these these wild Connections that are not there and miss the intimate connections that are there

01:54:46

As as mr. White read for us earlier he who did not spare his own son But delivered him over for us all so the passage tells us that God did not spare his own son

01:54:53

But delivered him over for us all who is this us? Well, this is a letter to the Romans It's written by Paul So Paul plus these

01:55:00

Romans that he was writing to equals the us which already shoots a huge lot wrong

01:55:07

Major failure it here. I had forgotten about this, but I thought we were gonna wrap be able to wrap up here in a second

01:55:15

Sorry What his argument here honestly is going to be well the us has to be limited to The Romans and Paul the text says the elect of God How can you miss something like that?

01:55:36

But you know we've seen it over and over how many times that we've seen people who because their traditions there can be a word

01:55:42

Sitting right there Waving its hands wildly and you don't see it. I mean how can you look at Romans and Miss the fact that it says

01:55:55

Specifically when it talks about us. It's talking about who will bring a charge against God's elect

01:56:04

Well Paul wrote letters to other churches and talked about the elect Paul knew the tradition of Jesus John chapter 17

01:56:13

I have others who will believe because of them I pray for them and not for the world

01:56:18

I mean come on you have to tear the New Testament to shreds to come up with such a horrific

01:56:24

Argument is well actually this refutes Calvinism because that would just mean that the us here was

01:56:30

Paul in the Romans Seriously that is that has got to be one of the worst arguments.

01:56:36

I've ever this that deserves a Radio -free Geneva segment in of itself yes, sir

01:56:41

I just want to focus on the fact that he's framed the phrase really does depict the problem here

01:56:46

Really right there there you go there Yeah, when that when that's the freeze -frame for someone just completely destroying a text of scripture

01:56:54

It is appropriate and that was providentially Providentially done I think Well hole in mr.

01:57:00

White's theory because I'm not Paul and James White is not Paul and I'm not any of the Romans that Paul wrote to and James White is not any of those

01:57:07

Romans who Paul wrote to so if Paul really were teaching about this limited atonement And he was saying that Jesus only died for us all us being

01:57:14

Paul plus the Romans that he was writing to Then James and I would have to be stuck saying that Jesus did not die for our sins

01:57:20

He would have died for just Paul and these Romans that Paul this is the kind of argumentation you get

01:57:26

We can go through Hebrews 7 8 9 and 10 we can demonstrate the consistency of Each of the beautiful books and scripture and these and what do we get?

01:57:40

that's I Sometimes you just you just go. Okay. All right.

01:57:46

Well, I There will be something equally strange tomorrow Lucky them, of course

01:57:53

If we actually read what the Bible says we know that it doesn't say but delivered him over only for us all it says but Delivered him over for us all it doesn't cap it off at Paul and those

01:58:00

Romans that he wrote to but all we know from That verse is that Paul and the Romans that he wrote to are included in the people that Jesus was delivered up for in the

01:58:06

Durban Video, we looked at Galatians to all rights the Galatians I have been crucified with Christ and it is no longer I who live but Christ lives in me and the life which

01:58:12

I now live In the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave himself up for me again

01:58:17

That doesn't say he gave himself up only for me. It says gave himself up for me And of course, we don't say only for me.

01:58:25

We recognize that we are part of The elect of God the point is this man because he doesn't have an actual saving work of Christ Wants to make sure and unfortunately, we have some people who aren't

01:58:37

Roman Catholics But aren't on our side on this matter who tried to do the same thing That's why there's an entire group of people in the

01:58:43

Southern Baptist Convention Their whole argumentation is we need to find places where Jesus tries to save people and fails

01:58:50

Yeah That's what they're doing too for different reasons, thankfully But it's still the error of synergism is still the error of trying to to take from God His right to have an elect people and to join them in Jesus Christ so at his work and their behalf is perfect That's that's really what you've got going on here.

01:59:12

And it's It's sad to watch This too was our starting point

01:59:17

We would know that Paul is at least included in those who Jesus gave himself up for but it's not setting a cap at just Paul as we just looked at in Romans 8 the

01:59:23

Romans who Paul wrote to were also included in that group of people who Jesus Delivered himself up for and as we looked at in the beginning of this video in 1

01:59:28

John We know that Jesus gave himself up for every person on the face of the planet So that's how the Christians I'm gonna settle up and get on out of here.

01:59:34

Miss the holster How gotta get a band -aid on that and you have yourselves a great day So, I suppose

01:59:50

I could blame certain people on Twitter who demanded that I respond to that but I'm not going to because There were some teachable moments, but the problem is to suffer through The 90 % excess irrelevant verbiage to get to the 10 % that you can actually deal with is really really difficult and So a lot of people have said yeah, you can't respond that guy.

02:00:25

He's got nothing new In fact, it's low level. It's it's it's low -hanging fruit

02:00:31

Roman Catholicism This isn't this isn't Peter D Williams level Roman Catholicism. This is the the low -level stuff

02:00:39

But look the if and I don't I don't know if he's the one who does I'm assuming that he'd actually does all the graphics and editing and stuff.

02:00:48

I'm assuming that I could be wrong But whoever does it's very good congratulations, but there are a lot of people in this world that are good with computers and graphics who are

02:01:02

Theologically disasters and that's what we just saw That was a lesson in how to twist scripture

02:01:10

How to twist scripture and to twist what other people actually have said And that's that's what it is.

02:01:18

But we took the time to do it and I think That puts us right for almost exactly two hours.

02:01:24

I was Good good timing good time. So there you go.

02:01:30

I I Just it I don't want to do any more of those because it you know

02:01:40

If look if the young man wants to respond, let's do it this way Get to your point

02:01:47

Don't make it half an hour that I could summarize in 60 seconds Okay, maybe that's all you've got.

02:01:55

Maybe that's just I Don't know but if you know Be straightforward be straightforward.