April 27, 2016 Show with “A Tribute to William Norman Grigg”

A Tribute to William Norman Grigg and the Mountain Meadows Massacre

On April 12, 2017, a dear old friend of mine unexpectedly entered into eternal peace with his beloved Savior, Jesus Christ, at the age of 54. His name is William Norman Grigg, a Mormon convert to the true Christ and true Gospel of the Scriptures.

He was former senior editor of the New American Magazine, an outspoken Christian libertarian and unwavering constitutionalist, and a frequent guest on the old Iron Sharpens Iron radio broadcast airing out of Long Island, New York.

It is in loving memory of Will that I now air two one-hour interviews with him back to back. I hope you are as blessed listening to them as I was conducting them. William Norman Grigg will certainly be missed, but our loss is Heaven's gain.

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Proverbs 27, 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and direct you to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. And now, here's our host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Long Island, New York, Connecticut, and those listening internationally over the internet. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron. The attack on the World Trade Center here in New York City was not the only massacre conducted by religious fanatics following a false prophet on the date September 11th.

Today we're going to be discussing an entirely different massacre that occurred on September 11th, 1857, the Mountain Meadows Massacre, involving the brutal murder of 120 women, men, and children by a Mormon militia.

These innocent victims were immigrants, mostly from Arkansas, traveling to California, who had the misfortune of passing through the Utah Territory during the infamous Utah War between Mormon settlers and the United States federal government.

And we're going to be discussing the Mountain Meadows Massacre today with our guest, William Norman Grigg, who is a former high priest in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the Mormons, who converted to evangelical Christianity by the grace of God.

And we are excited today to be addressing this very fascinating topic. We'll be right back after these messages with William Norman Grigg.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnsen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron. And as I just announced, today our guest is my friend William Norman Grigg, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron. William Norman Grigg is a former high priest in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, more commonly known as the Mormons, who converted to evangelical Christianity.

And we're going to be discussing the Mountain Meadows Massacre, a horrific event in our nation's history, which ironically occurred on September 11th in 1857, involving the brutal murder of 120 men, women, and children by a Mormon militia.

And as I said earlier, these innocent victims were immigrants, mostly from Arkansas, traveling to California, who had the misfortune of passing through the Utah Territory during the infamous Utah War between Mormon settlers and the United States federal government.

These Mormon assassins only spared the lives of 17 of the youngest children. And this is a timely interview today with William Norman Grigg, due to the extremely controversial motion picture, September Dawn, starring Academy Award winning actor John Voight, which is scheduled to debut on the 24th of August.

But welcome back to Iron Sharpens Iron, William Norman Grigg.

Chris, thanks so much for having me again, it's a blessing to be with you.

Yes, and it's always a blessing to have you on the program. Well, before we even go into the topic at hand, the Mountain Meadows Massacre, just briefly give our listeners some background about your conversion from Mormonism to Biblical Christianity, because some of our listeners may not have heard your interview in the past.

And we are now recording our programs on downloadable MP3s, thanks to Alpha and Omega Ministries in Phoenix, Arizona. So this will have a lot farther exposure, I believe, than your previous interviews.

Well, that's very good to know. As you mentioned, I was raised in the LDS church. I was adopted at the age of six weeks by a Mormon couple. And they are among the nicest, most decent people you'd ever want to meet.

I think there's no man I've ever met finer than my father. And my mother has helped me in every way. And they are fifth generation Mormons. And at the age of six weeks, I was adopted into that family and baptized in the Mormon church at age eight, and at age 12 became a deacon, which was an Aaronic or Levitical priesthood as the Mormon church designates that office, and served a Mormon mission to Mexico and Guatemala in 1982 to 1984.

And it was while I was in Guatemala, on October the 11th, not September 11th, October the 11th of 1983 that I was reading in the book of Luke, and specifically about the experience of Jesus in the garden, when it suddenly occurred to me that I was completely incapable of saving myself or playing any significant role in the transaction whereby my sins would be expunged and I would be made worthy in God's sight.

And as a Mormon, I had been taught, and I had taught as a Mormon missionary, that salvation consists of a transaction in which God does most of the work, but you have to do a certain portion of the work in order to be saved and to be put on a course for what is called exaltation or Godhood.

And it was impressed upon my soul at the time that inasmuch as I was going to be saved, it was God who was going to be doing that, that I was never going to be a being like God. I suddenly understood the personal dimension of salvation that I had been paying lip service to, which is specifically that Jesus died for me.

And it obviously changed the way I looked at Jesus, because I had never really fully come to understand Him as my Lord, my God, and my Savior. And it changed the way I looked at Mormonism, because Mormonism is centered on Joseph Smith and the works and poems of Joseph Smith and not the saving role of Jesus Christ.

And from the moment that I had that experience, I had really no interest in talking about Joseph Smith. I wanted to be talking about Jesus and teaching about Jesus. And it took me a number of years, the better part of two decades as a matter of fact, fully to reconcile myself to the fact that Mormonism was preaching a gospel as it styles the doctrines that it teaches that was completely foreign to what the Bible taught about the person, the role, the identity, the teachings, and the saving influence, the saving work of Jesus Christ.

And it wasn't until actually I had been married in the Mormon temple and started to raise children in the Mormon church that I came to realize that I simply couldn't be part.

Of it.

I couldn't see our children having the same experiences that I had, where I was being raised in a system where my future had been planned for me and thinking was to be kept to the minimum, and that it seemed to be a tremendously cruel thing to inflict that on our children.

But more importantly, I didn't want them to be alienated from the true Jesus as taught in the Bible, whom I had come to know at the most unlikely time of my life, which is while I was serving a Mormon mission.

And through the grace of God, my wife Corinne and I and our then four, now five children were able formally to leave the Mormon church in 2003.

Yeah, well, it blesses me every time I hear your testimony. It's obvious you get very moved by retelling the story of your conversion, and I praise God that you have not taken your conversion for granted.

It's still something that's very precious to you, so much so that you are moved every time I hear you explain how the Lord saved you. In fact, we have to have you on once again for a full hour just to give the longer version of your testimony, because the last time that you were on, that was truly one of the most moving programs I can remember ever doing.

So basically this, just so any Mormons who may be listening don't get the wrong idea about William Norman Grigg, you don't have some axe to grind about the Mormon church that you were treated horribly or something.

This is just because of the fact that you discovered that the true Jesus Christ and the true gospel of scripture, and you came to realize that the Mormon church theologically was wrong on every single major point, really, of theology.

It started with the most important point, which is who is Jesus Christ?

Yes.

The Mormon church teaches that Jesus Christ is just like us, but he's a little bit further along in the program, as if salvation were arranged through a multi-level marketing scheme. And Mormons, I hasten to point out, are among the most hard-working, decent, talented, intelligent people you'd ever encounter, and I love them.

They are my people in the same sense that Paul would refer to the Jews as his people. And as Paul said of the Jews, I say of the Mormons, it is my wish that they would all be saved. And it is my earnest hope that God will make some use of me in bringing these wonderful people to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.

Well, it's very interesting how, I think in only two generations or so, two, perhaps three generations, the Mormons went from being a despised and feared cult to being embraced as a part of Americana.

As much as baseball and apple pie, really.

It's a remarkable transformation. I can't really think of the likes of it in recorded human history, at least Western history. But the Mormons at the time, immediately following the Mountain Meadows Massacre, were looked upon with a type of skepticism and hostility not all that dissimilar to the attitude we have toward the Taliban.

And the parallels are not merely facile, they're actually quite fascinating. Here you have a desert-dwelling, polygamous theocracy that had been involved in a relationship with the central government in Washington, D .C.

Brigham Young had been a federal, though he was a federal government, the territorial governor of Utah, and he had also been the Indian agent. And by virtue of making him the Indian agent for Utah, he was able to arrange with some of the renegade Indian bands to make sorties against people who were traveling through Utah to get to California.

And according to Will Bagley's book, Blood of the Prophets, Will Bagley being a lay historian from Utah who had remarkable access to a lot of the documentary evidence that had not been previously accessible, one of Brigham Young's objectives in helping to plan the Mountain Meadows Massacre was to demonstrate to Washington at a time when there was a low-grade war between the Utah Mormon government and the federal government of Washington, that the Mormons controlled access to California by controlling the overland routes, and that by allying themselves with renegade Indians, they could attack wagon trains and other ventures that were being conducted at the time to take emigrants from the United States out to California.

And so there are some really interesting parallels here because there are elements of the Taliban who had been allied with Washington against the Soviet Union during the 1980s. And as well, you have here this horrific spectacle of mass murder being conducted ritualistically in the name of religion.

The original plan, according to Bagley, was that the Indians would conduct the massacre. They would be a deniable asset of the Mormon theocracy, but it would be pretty clear that the Mormon theocracy could control the Indians.

At least that would be the subtextual message that would be sent to Washington. But the Indians couldn't take out the Fancher train. The leaders of the wagon train, their last name was Fancher. And the Fancher train was led by some very experienced people who had been on many previous expeditions.

And so they were able to withstand the initial assault of the Indians. And the assault was being directed or at least in some sense assisted by Mormon leaders who were on scene directing the attacks. And so on the final day of the siege, September 11th, the local Mormon leaders, under a flag of truce, had negotiated an arrangement whereby the Fancher train would be let out of its defensive position.

And what happened was that the women and children were separated from the men, and each of the men was accompanied at his immediate side by an armed Mormon. They were disarmed. This is supposedly the condition under which they were going to be released by the Indians.

And as soon as the men were separated from the women and children, one of the Mormon leaders said, Brethren, do your duty to Israel. And at that point, the Mormon standing next to a male member of the Fancher party turned and shot that male member of the Fancher party.

And then the massacre began where Indians and Mormons alike set upon the women and children and killed them, all of them, except for 17 small children who were considered to be beneath the age of accountability, which is eight years old in Mormon theology.

And by doing so, supposedly they were sparing innocent blood. If you were to kill somebody above the age of eight, the assumption was in Mormon theology to be killing a sinner. But somebody beneath the age of eight, below the age of eight, was considered to be not accountable before God.

How nice of them.

Oh, yeah, very thoughtful and discriminating in that respect. But there were children younger than the age of eight who were killed. There was a mishap, a really fascinating incident that occurred in 1999 when an excavation was taking place out in the region next to the Mountain Meadows Memorial there in southern Utah.

The backhoe unearthed a shallow grave that contained some of the remains of the victims. And the immediate reaction of the part of the state government of Utah was just to bury back up again. But of course, that would have been a crime because it's a crime scene and you can't tamper with a crime scene under state law in Utah and most other places.

So they allowed some forensic scientists of the CSI variety, if you will, to inspect the remains that were contained in some of these shallow graves. And they found, among other things, the skeletal remains of very small children who must have been younger than eight who had been dispatched by a single gunshot, apparently at point blank range to the head.

That wasn't the sort of thing that would have happened if you had Indians besetting these people with tomahawks and knives and so forth. I mean, that was clear evidence that one of the Mormon militiamen had dispatched the victim in that fashion.

And so obviously you're dealing here with a premeditated mass murder that was conducted partially for reasons of state, because once again, the Mormon theocracy was in a relationship that was somewhat hostile with the government in Washington.

But it was something propelled by a religious ideology. And one of the really important contributing factors to the hostility that led to the Mountain Meadows Massacre was that several months earlier, Parley P. Pratt, a very beloved Mormon apostle, had been tracked down and killed in Arkansas by Hector McLean, who was the legal husband of a woman Parley P. Pratt had converted to Mormonism and then had taken into his polygamous seraglio.

And Hector McLean was an unbalanced man. He was an unbalanced, violent man who decided to track down Parley P. Pratt and kill him. And that deed was accomplished in Arkansas. And according to Will Bagley, Hector McLean's wife was present in July, the July 24th celebration of the arrival of the Mormons to Salt Lake.

She was there on the dais next to Brigham Young. And that emotional resonance, this outrage over what was perceived as the martyrdom of the beloved apostle Parley P. Pratt, who, by the way, is an ancestor of mine.

My father is a direct descendant of Parley P. Pratt. I don't remember which of his wives. Now, that's the miracle of polygamy is that you have a rather wide ancestral net of that.

Sort. But Parley P.

Pratt was well-beloved. And when his quote-unquote widow, who, of course, was his paramour, not his widow in any legitimate sense, was there amid the sense that the Gentile government was going to come into the Utah Valley, their place of refuge, and wipe them out.

There was a real war psychosis that took hold of the Mormons. And so this was something that was cultivated and diligently nurtured by the Mormon leadership, because every totalitarian or authoritarian government just loves to cultivate a sense of siege on the part of its subject population.

In fact, let's pick right up on that when we return from a break, William. Sure. Be right back after these messages with more of William Norman Grigg and the Mountain Meadows Massacre. Tired of box store Christianity, of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert?

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Welcome back to Iron Sharpens Iron. If you've just tuned us in, we are interviewing today William Norman Grigg, a former high priest in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who converted to evangelical Christianity.

And he is addressing with us today the Mountain Meadows Massacre, a horrific event in our nation's history which ironically occurred on September 11th in 1857 involving the brutal murder of 120 men, women, and children by a Mormon militia.

William, where we left off, you were talking about the siege mentality that was being cultivated by the Mormons at this time.

Well, starting about a year before the massacre, actually as early as 1855 or 1854, Brigham Young and his counselor Jedediah Grant had been preaching a series of sermons about sifting out the people for their righteousness, the idea that there had been a number of reverses in their existence.

Just take a look at the history of the Mormon Church. It really is pretty much fraught with all kinds of adversity, much of it self-inflicted. Most of the persecution that they endured, I believe, consists of pretty much standard museum-quality exhibits of the type of thing that happens when innocent people get the worst of fights that their leaders pick with others.

And Joseph Smith, from the very beginning of Mormonism, had been perceived as a very presumptuous, arrogant, and pushy man. And when they moved from location to location, Joseph Smith would conjure out a revelation declaring that said location was to be the God-given inheritance of the Mormon people.

And, of course, that didn't sit well with the people who were already living there. That happened in Missouri in 1831, and that resulted in about seven years of intercommunal warfare that was just horrible.

If you remember, Missouri, in the years leading up to the Civil War, was the spectacle of all kinds of violence of the sort that you would later associate with places like Beirut and Bosnia. And the Mormons ended up in the middle of this.

And so, often, there was an inclination on the part of the Mormons already to feel some of the siege by the larger world of the Gentiles, as they were constantly referred to. And so, the Mormon Reformation of the 1850s focused on the idea that they had to purify themselves, they had to be rebaptized, they had to reassert their temple oaths, which is something that had started Nauvoo after the temple was completed.

I believe it was completed following the death of Joseph Smith, or it was never fully completed. That would have been in 1844. One of the things that Brigham Young and Jedediah Grant both preached about very prolifically was blood atonement, the idea being that there are some sins that are so serious.

This goes back to the nature of Mormon salvation doctrine that I alluded to in the first segment. There are some sins so serious that the blood of Christ cannot avail when someone seeks salvation. And so, in order to accomplish salvation, someone guilty of a sin of this sort, which could be murder, adultery, ironically enough, or apostasy from the Mormon faith, in order to seek salvation, it was necessary that the supplicant allow his blood to be shed so that it can compensate for the fact that the blood of Christ is inadequate to cover that sin.

Now, if there are sins the blood of Christ cannot atone for, then we can't be confident, we cannot have faith that the blood of Christ can atone for any sin. You see, the point is, that's not what the Bible teaches.

You know, that's something that's not unique to Mormonism, but is certainly distinctive in the American sense of Mormonism. There are cognate teachings that you can find, for instance, in some strains of Islam.

And you can find other cultic movements that preach very similar concepts, the idea that there's a certain type of altruism that one must display by being willing to kill somebody in order for that person to be saved eventually.

There are some unfortunate things in Christian history where people have succumbed to that same delusion, but this is something that was being taught in 1855 -1856 in what was called the Mormon Reformation.

And of course, when it became clear that the Mormon priesthood government in the territory of Utah was unwilling to submit to civil authority, Washington became concerned, and hostility began to escalate between Salt Lake City and Washington.

And at the time, 1857, when all these events sort of coalesced, you had on top of that the death of Parley P. Pratt by Hector MacLean. Parley P. Pratt had made a way with Hector MacLean's wife, converted her to Mormonism, taken her on as his ninth polygamous wife.

And Hector MacLean, being a violent, unbalanced man, stalked Parley P. Pratt all the way from San Francisco to Arkansas, where he killed Parley P. Pratt. And then Hector MacLean's widow reportedly was there in July of 1857 as the sanctified widow of the late departed apostle.

And so by this time, there was something, as I said, akin to a war psychosis that had gripped the Utah Mormon community, and it was cultivated by the Mormon leadership. George Smith, another apostle, he was somebody who was sort of a vainglorious individual.

He wore a girdle and a toupee, and he had false teeth and glasses. And some of the Indians he dealt with referred to him as the man who comes apart.

Sounds like a televangelist. Yeah, really.

He was a type of televangelist. This individual, known by the Indians as the man who comes apart, did the circuit-riding preaching tours of the settlements down through southern Utah, where he was talking about, among other things, blood atonement and the evil of the Gentile world, and how the time had come for a confrontation between God's people, the Mormons, as they styled themselves, the Gentiles, and how perhaps someday in the near future, you would be using the blood of the Gentiles to water your fruit trees.

That's a particular illustration that he used that I found to be particularly offensive. And all this was coalescing just as this wagon train showed up from Arkansas in the late summer of 1857. And the rumors started to circulate, and I have a distant ancestor who was involved in circulating these rumors, that this Arkansan wagon train contained members of the Missouri Wildcats, who supposedly boasted that they had killed and otherwise oppressed Mormons in Missouri, that they had raped Mormon women, that they supposedly had the very gun that was used to kill Joseph and Hyrum Smith in July of 1844, and so forth.

There's not so much as a particle of truth to any of those rumors, but they had been circulated in the summer of 1857, and they have been more or less canonized through repetition in Mormon folk history.

The idea being that this was a degenerate band of wastrels, that they were disreputable people, they were violent, they were abusive, and that they boasted about doing horrible things to Mormons. None of this is true.

As a matter of fact, a fellow by the name of Ronald Esplin—actually, I think it was Richard Turley—Ronald Esplin and Richard Turley are Mormon Church historians who are putting out the Mormon Church's version of what happened on the morning of September 11, 1857, in the forthcoming book.

And they have both admitted that there's no truth to any of these rumors about the misconduct by the Arkansans immigrants as they reached the Salt Lake Valley. It was just their misfortune—or not the Salt Lake Valley, it was Utah—it was their misfortune that they happened to be Gentiles in a wagon train approaching Utah at a time when Utah was being primed to hate Gentiles and to expect war with the Gentiles.

Everywhere they went, they were denied forage, they were denied supplies, they were denied the opportunity to trade and conduct commerce, to resupply the wagon train. This is a decree that was set up by Brigham Young.

They were not to trade with the Gentiles. And those who actually went so far as to do so were punished, often quite brutally. There were a couple of instances in, I believe, Spanish Fork, Utah, where on one occasion a man who actually sold, I think it was onions, to a member of the Fancher wagon train was beaten and punished by his local church officials because he was trading with the Gentiles.

But they were driven down to this remote and fairly inaccessible place near Cedar City, Utah, called Mountain Meadows. And the Mormon priesthood leadership of the Cedar City Stake, working under the guidance of Salt Lake City—this is what Will Bagley has documented—they knew that this wagon train was to be used up.

And the idea, once again, was that the Paiute Indians were supposed to conduct the attack, but because they weren't adequate to the task, the Mormons, who were more or less backing them up and giving them advice and direction, took the matter in hand themselves and consummated the dirty deed.

There's a journal entry that Will Bagley located and published in his book in which Brigham Young is talking with an Indian leader and offers them the cattle and the wealth contained in that wagon train, specifically referring to the Fancher party wagon train.

And the only reason he would do this, obviously, was so as to induce that Indian leader and his band to attack that wagon train and plunder it. And the Indian leader in question, whose name eludes me right now, was somewhat reluctant to do so.

I mean, he thought that the Americans had been treating them quite well, but there were some elements of the Paiute tribe who were willing to carry this out.

So they basically hired assassins, the Indians.

Yeah, they didn't really want to be doing the dirty work for the Mormon hierarchy. And that was the theme, by the way, that you could see in Brigham Young's speeches of the period. He talked about Brother Lemuel, and that refers to the Book of Mormon passage where Laman and Lemuel, who were the older brothers of the main character Nephi, Nephi being the good, righteous brother, Laman and Lemuel being the rebellious brothers.

Laman and Lemuel were cursed by God and smitten with a dark skin as a token of divine disfavor. And they're supposedly the ancestors of the American Indians. And as it happens, I am what Mormons call a Lamanite.

That is the Mormon expression for an American Indian, a Native American, a Mexican of Indian ancestry. I'm a dark brown individual who has that ancestry. And that played a role in my perceptions of the Mormon Church, because I found it puzzling that God would color code people for righteousness.

It seems a summarily unscriptural concept. But in any case, Brother Lemuel, the Indians, were supposedly going to be the strong arm of the Mormon hierarchy in rebuking the iniquitous government of the Gentiles.

And we can see from the documentation in Will Bagley's book that there were covert plans being made to bring this about that led to Mountain Meadows.

So basically, this wagon train could have been any non-Mormon group, and they would have been massacred anyway.

Probably. In this case, because they came from Arkansas, which is where Parley P. Pratt had been killed, there was that much more envenomed reaction on the part of the Mormons to this particular wagon train.

And the fact that Arkansas, of course, borders on Missouri, and that led to speculation that there were Missourians who were part of that train, that added another layer of rancor, if you will, to the perception of the Mormons as those wagon trains showed up.

I do think it's interesting to point out that the Fanchers, the brothers who led that wagon train, were of French ancestry, and they were Reformed Christians. They were descended from Huguenots who survived the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre.

Wow.

Boy, that is a family that has a little bit of baggage in its genealogy.

Wow, I never heard that before.

Yeah, that's another thing underscored in Will Bagley's very fine book and a couple of other sources I've seen where they talk about the lineage of the Fancher party, that you have people who survived the hideous, horrible, world-historic atrocity called the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre, who end up in the United States and get wiped out by a group of Mormons on September 11, 1857.

What's really interesting about that particular date, by the way, is that on exactly the same day, or within a 24-hour period of the Mount Meadows Massacre, there was a steamship that sank in the Gulf of Mexico, called the Esa Central America, that contained a rather large quantity of gold that was being taken to eastern banks in order to help finance some of the agricultural businesses that were then thriving.

And so you had this really weird juxtaposition where suddenly it looked as if people couldn't travel the overland routes to California. And the Esa Central America journey started out with people in California going across the Isthmus and into the Gulf to get to Florida.

It seemed like you couldn't travel on the sea lanes, either, because your steamships are going to sink. And it led to a mini-depression. These two events together really threw a scare into people, the same sort of way that our September 11th threw a scare into people about air travel and other means of transportation.

And it had that kind of emotional impact for a lot of people. They were really concerned about the possibility that until this fanaticism was arrested and somehow dealt with, that really the country was going to be very badly off.

And that makes it all the more dramatic to see that within a couple of generations, Mormons were being brought into the mainstream, and now there's a university named after Brigham Young. If you were to put yourself in the mind of an American circa, say, 1861 or 1870 or so, the fact that Brigham Young has a university named after him would strike that American as being as bizarre as if you could look 100 years in the future and see a university named after Osama Bin Laden.

Yeah, or Hitler High.

Yeah, exactly.

We have to go to a break right now. If you don't go away, we'll be right back.

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Find Harvey Cedars on Facebook or at hcbible .org, hcbible .org. Call 609 -494 -5689, 609 -494 -5689. Harvey Cedars, where Christ finds people and changes lives. Welcome back. This is Chris Arnsen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, and we are interviewing William Norman Grigg, a former high priest in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, commonly known as the Mormons, who converted to evangelical Christianity, and William is addressing the Mountain Meadows Massacre, and this is largely due to the fact that there is a movie coming out this month, debuting this month on August 24th, actually, called September Dawn, starring Academy Award-winning actor John Voight, and I'm very eager to see this movie.

I don't know how accurate it is. Obviously, I haven't seen it yet, and I don't believe you've seen any preview of it, have you, William?