Should Governments Obey Jesus?

The Prophetic Witness of the Church Against Injustice

Non rockabodas must stop. I don't want to rock the boat. I want to sink it.

Are you gonna bark all day little doggy, or are you gonna bite?

Delusional yeah delusional is okay in your worldview. I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional. You don't chastise pigs for being delusional. So you calling me delusional using your worldview is perfectly.

Okay, it doesn't really hurt.

Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men. The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men lauding them for their courage.

Go into all the world and make disciples not going to the world make buddies not to make brosives, right? Don't go in the world make homies right disciples. I got. I got a bit of a jiggle Nick.

That's a joke.

When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not.

Give the king your justice Oh God and your righteousness to the royal son. May he judge your people with righteousness and your poor with justice. Let the mountains bear prosperity for the people and the hills in righteousness.

May he defend the cause of the poor of the people. Give deliverance to the children of the needy and crush the oppressor. May they fear you. While the Sun endures and as long as the moon throughout all generations.

May he be like rain that falls on the mown grass like showers that water the earth. In his days may the righteous flourish and peace abound till the moon be no more. May he have dominion from sea to sea and from the river to the ends of the earth.

May desert tribes bow down before him and his enemies lick the dust. May the kings of Tarshish and of the coastlands render him tribute. May the kings of Sheba and Saba bring gifts. May all kings fall down before him all nations serve.

Him yeah, you did a good job. I usually you have a hard time with that one, which one. There's a lot of like shush.

I gotta know hearing that red with that background music. Isn't it? Great. Pretty epic. Yeah Tarsha the kings of Tarshish.

Yes, Sheba and Saba. It's a lot a lot of shush shush shush. Yes and Tarsha. Hey, welcome back everybody. Welcome back to another episode of apology or radio. This is the gospel heard around the world.

I'm Jeff. They call me the ninja. That's Luke the bear right there. What uh, that's diggity Zack Conover over there and you can get more at apology of studios .com. That's a p o l o g i a Studios .com apology a studios .com.

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Louisiana.

On Tuesday We made sure that we were on the streets doing we had to do for EAN and we made sure we got to the hotel. To do a live ask me anything. It's just for our partners in ministry where they get to connect with us once a month ask questions sort of hang out together and That's for all of all of you who partner with us in all access that's available to you guys once a month.

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So we're back. We just go back in last night. Some of us and our team got back last night from, Louisiana and.

We.

Drew we flew into New Orleans and drove to Baton Rouge I'm trying to say it all the right. So no one in front of me that Rouge and We were there Tuesday. We had a big jumbotron Playing photos of the murdered children in DC and the actual videos from our friend AJ Hurley who was there and Information was on the jumbotron telling everyone about the rally.

We have on the 30th and about our bill HB 813 is the bill to abolish it in, Louisiana it is the bill that calls what's in the womb and image bearer of God and Protects all humans with equal protection from conception.

It is a Christian bill through and through based upon the law word of God and so we were there we had it in one location at first in front of the Department of Health and Lots of cars people going by then we moved the jumbotron to the Capitol itself and we got us engaged in some conversation there.

But also we're able to let people know I will say that It was a very different feeling. I mean, obviously we know that in Louisiana the numbers of people who are professing pro-life are Really really really high.

Yeah, but if we were to do in Phoenix what we did in Baton Rouge I think we would have been in some trouble, but in Baton Rouge people were driving by they were honking their horns. They were cheering cheering it on saying thank you so much.

They were thumbs upping and people would walk by and stop and stare at that awful Jumbotron and say thank you. I was it was shocking. Do you get any birds? What's that any middle finger salutes, I know no, it was all it was all like actual encouragement.

We had one detractor. We had one person that was there fight and we had a good time. That's awesome to her. But I think that was recorded as well. So We just got back last night. I want to encourage everybody, you know, you oftentimes wonder like how can I help?

With this ministry, how can I serve in this ministry? I can maybe I can't go to the mill I can't do this or that. How can I help? Well number one and you know, I'm gonna say it. Please pray. Please. Please pray in particular pray for the legislators hearts in Louisiana that they would be courageous and bold and they would establish justice pray for us.

But you can also get involved by showing up on the 30th 10 a .m In Baton Rouge at the state capitol if you're in South Carolina, Florida Mississippi wherever you're at around or in Louisiana show up tell your church show up.

We need you there because we need to let the legislators know that they can be courageous. They can do the right thing and get the support of the church in that state. So we need you we need you and We need you to call call the legislators in Louisiana.

Let them know that you expect them to do the right thing to not compromise to establish justice. That's how you can serve with us alongside of us right now. And I will say that I think the people in Louisiana are just a tad bit crazy.

And I'll tell you why and I don't want to spend too much time out talking on this but I think you're nuts because we flew into New Orleans. And flying over it. It's like hey, there's nothing but swamp here.

We're flying over water. This is all swamp and then you get it to New Orleans and isn't it below sea level? Yes, so it's by an ocean and it's below sea level. And so people were like, this is a good spot to set up I mean every five years.

I'll lose us to everything. I love hurricane shmurka. Yeah, no big deal I'll lose everything every five years, but man Mardi Gras. All right that Mardi Gras though I don't know. So we land there and we got a drive from New Orleans to Baton Rouge and Dude, it's crazy.

Like you get out of the airport area and you are driving. There's nothing but swamp everywhere. I mean swamp swamp, you see any gators? No gators, but you know, you know. They're there and I will say that I thought this is crazy.

Like who thought like on the one hand you can go. Well, let's just scratch the idea. It was clearly a bad idea to build a city here in the swamp and like right next to the ocean. So instead of doing that they said well Why don't we just keep things as they are and we'll just build a bridge for 30 miles through the swamp.

And so it's like it's just miles and miles and miles and miles and miles of bridge on the water because all there is is water and I don't know. I just feel like you know. Maybe if you had a Christian worldview and some wisdom you'd say hey.

Maybe God doesn't want anyone to live here, you know sort of a thing, but the common grace is that the bridges did hold. Yeah, they did hold. You'll see we're gonna we're gonna drive you'll see you'll be like why would anybody do this?

How much did it cost to build this bridge? Probably a lot how much work and you you told me about this before because I think you and I were talking once and I Was like, how do you how do you do this in water?

Yeah, like cuz the water eventually erodes things and the waters constantly go down to bedrock. They go down to the bedrock. But they had to do that for like a long way a long way and so how much money did that cost?

So rather than move and say scratch it. Let's just move up. Let's let it be let it be and we'll just build bridges.

Right.

No, thank you. And you guys are just a tad bit crazy. Encourage everybody to go to reform con. Reform con dot org. Yes, get your tickets for reform con. It is Reformation Day weekend here in Phoenix, you're gonna be able to hang out with us get to fellowship get some great teaching and you're gonna get Encouraged with some of the best of the best in their field there's gonna be performances and talks from some of the leaders in their field that are believers who are standing on the Word of God in their area of Expertise and they are they are leading in those areas or have led in those areas and so whether it's art whether it's education whether it's Economics the title of the conference is by this standard.

We have some amazing speakers, but it's not just the speakers you want to come for it. Is this truly the experience? We're trying to build for you. It's not a church service. It's a Christian conference.

And so we're trying to highlight Believers who are leading and leading with the Word of God and with their testimony in each individual area. Like I said, whether it's whether it's a church whether it's government whether it's state whether it's economics arts, whatever Sports all that stuff.

It's it's gonna be just an amazing time together. We even have time to hang out. There's an after-party. There's time for fellowship and it's gonna be a good time. So reform con dot org get tickets now because it's limited seating and it when it runs out it runs out.

That's it. We cannot show any mercy and say well you can come. Anyways, if you don't get your ticket now You are not gonna get in once it's once it's full because we only have room for a thousand seats.

And so when it's out, it is out and right now the early bird tickets are still up.

I believe if it's not up, it'll be up soon. There is gonna there are family family pricing as well. And then very soon probably next week. We will have a lot of people been asking there's this we're gonna have the sponsorship page ups if you want to Advertise or sponsor anything and podcasts that I'll be up next week.

The after-party like you said those tickets will be going up soon. There's limited 250 people for that so that's gonna be pretty sweet and There are there is a link for the hotel on the on the website.

That you can get a special rate at the hotel. Yeah, so I'll be speaking there. Dr. James White speaking there. Dr. Joe Buddha speaking there. Andrew Sandlin is speaking there. David Bonson is speaking there.

We got a lot and Yeah, you don't want to miss it. It's gonna be a very very great time together. Not just time for for teaching and instruction we don't want to pound you with Messages just the entire time we want you to get fed and get encouraged.

But we also want to just create a place where you can connect to other believers get excited fellowship. Just have a great time and even at points be entertained. Because if we want to show that you can be a leader in a particular area We want to show that as Christians you can do that.

You can lead in all these areas and you can do it in a way that is inspiring and motivating all of that. And so it's the one conference. You don't want to miss this year. You notice that I wore what's left of my Rowdy Christian media shirt from the fight laugh feast conference.

Let me just say I I wore it. I was gonna like I was gonna wear something else I was like, I'll wear this. I'm gonna talk about reform con because you can see how this is all faded and pretty much irrelevant now, that's pretty much How we feel about Other conferences this year.

Wow, that's a statement. It is a state there. Yeah some people like to hold conferences and cattle arenas and treat people like cows and not have security at the door checking tickets and Have screens where you can't even see the speaker and you know people do that.

People will fly out for it and that's what they deliver to them apparently provide handmade shirts. Yeah, I don't know I don't know. Some people have just a different mindset. That's how many times if you want.

Maybe you're right a lot. 10 ,000. I have the same shirt and mine does not look like the 10 ,000.

Yeah, 10 ,000. Whoa and one and one thousand and one today.

So.

Reform con org. And I'll kick it over to Luke Luke.

Today I have an I FAC kit from our sponsors air if I 500. I FAC stands for individual first aid kit. It's pretty sweet. And I'm just gonna tell you what's in this because there's a bunch of cool things.

That's pretty neat. It's got a SWAT T the compacts twin chest seal EMS responder bandage compressor got gauze trauma shears duct-tape bear claw gloves casualty card and a marker.

And attorney training to tell me.

Um. No, okay, but we love air 500, you know, it's really cool about them because they they make tools of liberty. Yep, and they Say no king, but Christ and that's right. He stinking amazing there. Here's here's a great thing.

I love about them. Not only do they deliver amazing products, but they're unashamedly Christian. Yeah, say things like no king, but Christ they are an amazing business. It is a great job. They're killing it right now.

Oh, yeah there and and they're providing a really really good an important tool. To people and they're doing it all under the the flag of Christ Authority and Lordship and they're not ashamed of it. And they're super successful.

Yeah, and that's how things should be done. And so we you know, this will lead us right into the discussion. We have that's a good point. Dr Joe boot with us today. I'm gonna introduce him here in just a moment.

He has a new book by the way I'm gonna say if you have not gotten into your library mission of God yet You have to shame on you mission of God by dr Joe boot into your library get it from the Ezra Institute get it soon get it quick sell everything you own until you get it Ruler Kings new book.

We've been waiting for this for a long time. You know, I think it's probably the most excited. We all have been excited but the most excited probably James. Dr James, you know couldn't wait for this to get into the hands of people because he's just been moved by so much of this Ruler of Kings toward a Christian vision of government and this would be a good lead into it.

So we were at we were at Baton Rouge doing the live stream to let people know what's going on and how you can partner with us and you could be a part of what's happening there and. Somebody like I said, I don't usually see all the comments.

But somebody made a comment and they were like basically dissing it saying like just preach the gospel. You know, this has got nothing to do with the Jesus.

Like come in there and bring in the Word of God. The law word of abortion has nothing to do with Jesus, right?

It's it's not it's like this isn't this isn't within the realm of our responsibility to speak against something like this and really work like we're working in that state and all I just said because I don't usually Make comments back or even pay attention to him because there's tens of thousands a day prior to come in.

All I said was you should read Isaiah 1. Like try that yeah God rejecting the worship of his people because they Tolerate and put up with and even engage in the injustice all around them and he says cease to do evil learn to do good seek justice correct oppression and Bring justice to the fatherless and that's right before.

That's right before literally right before he says Come let us reason together says the Lord though. Your sins are a scarlet. There should be white as snow. That's right in the context of him rejecting the worship of his people saying it's it's it's it's a burden to him.

And he says now stop doing this seek justice Repenting your sins. And so apparently God does care and he has an unchanging character. So he does care as to whether there is injustice and evil around us and he does care that his people Have something to say and do about it.

And so Christian view of government. Especially after the tyranny we've just been under the last two years. Not just two years more like a lot more than that, but in particular the highlighted tyranny of the last ramps.

It's a good conversation to be having and we're having it with the right man. He's one of our very very favorites. And what were we saying about him this week? He was probably one of the greatest living theologians today most important.

One of the most important now. Joe doesn't want us to be saying this about her now. But what you and I were saying, yeah behind his back. That's right. Yeah was that he's one of the greatest most important theologians of our day.

If you don't know him yet, you should get to know him. Dr. Joe boot Ezra Institute. Welcome to the show brother.

Great to be with you guys. Thanks so much for having me as always and it's always entertaining listening to you. I.

Could just listen to this for the next half hour. Good. Well, if you want to hang on we'll just keep. Okay, so dr. Boots This is an important discussion. Obviously, you've written so much about this you've spoken so much on this subject is important because we live in the context of.

An.

Evangelical West that doesn't understand the Word of God on these issues in a coherent way. And doesn't even understand the history of the Christian Church on some of these issues. They don't understand how the Puritans viewed this the Huguenots.

They don't understand How historically Christians have viewed the authority of Jesus over every realm of life. Every sphere the government and all that. So we have we live in a time where people will say Well, that's not a gospel issue.

Like government is government. That's over there, but it's not a gospel issue. So we really don't need to have any concern over whether the government obeys Jesus. And you wrote a book ruler of Kings Toward a Christian view of government.

I think this is a highly controversial book in our day. It's very very important. It's highly controversial because Joe, let's face it. You are you are. You are facing a tidal wave of opposition in terms of how the Evangelical West views government today in the authority of Jesus.

So why would you write a book like this that is so controversial in terms of against the stream? Why would you write this book?

Well, of course one of the one of the tasks of Those who are seeking to be faithful to the Lord in in each area of life is to be willing to Go against the flow and to Bring prophetic witness, which is how I view the task of Christian apologetics and a Christian cultural philosophy Is we are countering Essentially, it's it's a form of prophecy.

We are countering The false prophecy of our age of the philosophers and thinkers of our age. It's been embraced So much by the church and by our radically secularizing culture. We're confronting that with with Christian prophecy and Actually some of the some of the most influential thinkers of The last few hundred years like Karl Marx understood their task as being their philosophical task as being essentially prophetic And changing the world and of course, you'd have to ask prophecy in terms of who?

Whose word are they telling forth and so The prophets were never that popular Jeff as you know the even in Israel Jesus Reminded the the Jews of his day you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you.

So you guys know better than anyone that Christian cultural prophecy in terms of the Word of God isn't going to win you any popularity contests and it does involve going against the flow and That's the that's the counter cultural nature of the kingdom and we are in a time as you pointed out where the Christian Church is in the grip of Radical secularizing and paganizing tendencies we have a synthesis gospel a synthesis Christianity that is trying to Broker a deal a peace treaty with secularization and indeed really paganization and and in fact is even trying to Synthesize the Christian faith with it and that's why you get the kind of responses that you were just talking about there where people think the abortion issue or the issue of Politics or government has somehow nothing to do with the gospel.

That's because there's been an attempted synthesis of the freedom motive of the radical freedom autonomy motive of modern culture with Christianity and the church has Largely bought into it. So we can't see our we don't tend to see these issues clearly in the modern church and that's why I Wrote the book I'm just seeking to be faithful to the Lord Jesus Christ.

I'm standing on the shoulders of Giants. Trying to you know and as sometimes for your own age, obviously the Giants who shoulders you stand on lived in a different era and As history moves forward you need to see that a little bit higher over the next over the next peak.

So you need to stand on their shoulders? And so that's all I'm trying to do is Apply the Word of God and the the the message of the gospel in its fullness To our critical cultural moment. Excellent. Thank you, brother.

So I'm gonna pass it to the guys here in a moment I'm gonna lay a solid foundation for those who may be new to this sort of discussion when you hear us saying That Christ has authority over these United States that Christ has has authority over the United Kingdom and the governments of the United Kingdom.

It can be kind of a shocker like a jolt like well, well, yeah in theory I agree with that. But for real and we would say yeah. Really like, you know. Just think about the title of the book that the book is titled ruler of Kings toward a Christian view vision of government and somebody Might say well, this is interesting.

Let me take a look at this. You open the first page and there's a verse there. See it's a verse. Oh, I like that verse and that's where the title of book comes from title. The book is I mean, it's kind of plagiarism to be honest with you Joe Ruler of Kings it says Jesus is the faithful witness.

The first among those raised from the dead and here it is Revelation 1 5. He is the ruler of the kings of the earth. Now if I'm being facetious here, but if you didn't know that was written in the first century.

So that was written really not too long after the resurrection and ascension of the Lord Jesus. So according to the apostolic witness about Jesus Jesus is the ruler of the kings of the earth. Today not he will be the ruler of the kings of the earth someday.

He is the ruler of the kings of the earth today. Now. That's also in the same book that uses the famous phrase King of Kings and Lord of Lords and in every Christian affirms that. Like in theory, yes, he's the king of kings today Lord of Lords today, but there's even more.

He's the ruler of the kings of the earth today. Yeah, so Why is this discussion controversial? Well, it's controversial. For a number of reasons I think in terms of being discipled by the culture. And being taught your your space Christian is over there in the church stuff.

This is our space over here. So we've been discipled better by the culture than we have by the been by the church in the Word of God in many ways. And so the the culture says this is your this is your sphere and let's let's stay over there with that that Jesus talk but also eschatology is an issue in terms of a couple things a number one if you think that the ultimate is just to get Raptured out of here at any moment because like the worse it gets the better it is for us.

We're just gonna get taken out of here. You won't care. Ultimately really what's going on around you the degradation of culture the darkness that's that's coming in the light that's fleeting away. You won't really be so concerned with it because any moment you're getting taken out of here and all goes to hell anyway.

So what's what's the big deal? Look, what's the point of polishing brass on the sinking ship people have said before like why bother thinking about three generations deep from now? And what you can invest in that like so that'll that'll that'll really mess with your your your daily life and your methodology and those sorts.

Of things but there is something else Jonah like you to address this and it has to do with the overall thematic issue of scripture from Old Testament to New Testament. It has to do with the rule of the Messiah.

The rule of the Messiah the Messiah the authority of the Messiah the scope of his rule and reign. You know, I've often said and I'm gonna have you respond maybe to this Joe I've often said that when we have a badass catology and a bad view of the authority of Christ over all things.

We deliver to the Orthodox Jews the Jews who actually believe the Torah and the Tanakh. They actually believe in a literal coming Messiah when we say, you know. Yeah, Jesus is he's the Messiah, but you know, nothing's really gonna change here.

And he's not really ruler of they were over the earth and no one's really Accountable to him today in every single realm the Jews I think can just laugh at that and say well, he's not the Messiah. Because that's not the vision of the Messiah from the Torah on the Tanakh.

It's a much different vision. And so I think the key issue here for those that hear ruler of Kings Christian view of government is this is Jesus King on his throne Today in other words is the kingdom really a Reality today because then most people say well, yeah, Jesus came Kings Lord of Lords today.

Like but it's a it's a now and not yet situation. What they really mean is now but not really now but not really. So the question is is Jesus actually ruler of the kings of the earth today. Is his kingdom actually a present reality is is the whole world expected to be in subjection to him.

Dr. Boot.

Well, yes, according to Psalm 2 Which I think is one of the most critical texts with respect to this a messianic Psalm about the rule and reign of the Lord Jesus Christ Scripture commands that all kings and rulers and magistrates judges Kiss the Sun submit to him lest he be angry and they they perish in the way that whole Psalm is about the present rule and reign of the the Lord Jesus Christ.

You make a really interesting point when you say talk about eschatology because eschatology people tend to think is just about last things. But it isn't. Eschatology is about the direction of history.

It's about the meaning of history as a whole and. The keynote of the Bible is often missed. I think you've touched on it Jeff, but. Modern contemporary evangelicalism is basically caught up in what I would call gospel headlines.

We have message fragments. Jesus died for your sins. Jesus loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life. Jesus wants to save you and take you to heaven and so on and. Properly interpreted there's there's nothing wrong.

In.

Context with those statements. The problem is many Christians Increasingly a majority and certainly that the world into which we're bearing this message Doesn't know the backstory those message fragments come without any kind of framework and the framework of Scripture is The message of the kingdom of God that is the keynote of the Bible the prophetic witness of Scripture is about the kingdom of God the calling of the patriarchs of The kings of Israel of the prophets is always in terms of the kingdom the rule and the reign of God in the earth and of course the coming of Christ is about the king the coming of the king to establish his kingdom and therefore the the New Testament speaks of the gospel of the kingdom the Gospel of the kingdom basilea.

In fact that the Bible talks the New Testament speaks Far more about the kingdom of God than it does about the church now. This might be a shock to some people because we've churchified the Christian faith.

Most people believe in churchianity today not Christianity because they limit the reality of the gospel to the four walls of the church. But the the Bible talks the New Testament talks over a hundred times about the kingdom of God the basilea of God.

The church has just mentioned a handful of times. That's not because the church the Ecclesia is not important the church as the called-out Congregation has a vital role in the kingdom of God in that as Institutionally anyway, we preach the word we administer the sacraments.

We exercise church discipline but the function of the institutional church does not exhaust the biblical idea of the Basilea of God of the kingdom of God and that is the keynote of scripture from Genesis to Revelation.

It's about the rule and reign of God. Our first parents are called in the garden of God to rule and subdue and exercise dominion so the creation is turned into a God glorifying culture and We know that they fell into ruin and rebellion and sin and we talk about the fall.

So we have creation fall and then That there's our first parents were given that kingly priestly role to serve God to to to to work and to serve.

And.

That that role that role of the kingly priesthood is restored in us in the Lord Jesus Christ. So he is our prophet priest and King. He is the in a sense we could take the image of the garden creation is God's garden.

Christ Christophany the second person of the Godhead walked with our first parents in the garden of God. We're given a hint of the restoration of the garden in Canaan. When a people is called out to be a royal priesthood.

That's what the book of Exodus tells us that the Jews were called to be a royal priesthood again to Serve the purposes of the kingdom of God they failed they rebelled. They're dispossessed. And then the King of Kings comes the truly obedient son the true Israelite the true gardener comes to his garden and he speaks about the reality of the gospel of the kingdom the restoration of the kingdom of God and From the garden of Gethsemane to the garden tomb at his resurrection.

Where he's mistaken for the gardener. The resurrected Lord the firstborn from the dead Restores us as the head of a new race as the new Adam as the head of a new people. To our kingly priestly calling in terms of the kingdom of God.

So the whole of the Bible Genesis to Revelation paradise lost to paradise regained. The keynote is the kingdom of God and I think what's that. What's happened is that we've we've we've lost the the or we've actually set aside or even Don't for at least don't fully appreciate today in the modern church the significance of the Basel air the kingdom of God.

We've replaced or we've conflated the church Institute and the kingdom of God and so that basically means that we say to ourselves. Well, if the kingdom of God and Church Institute are basically the same They're identical with one another then the only place that Jesus Christ reigns is inside the walls of the institutional church and so therefore.

What's going on out there in politics in law and education in the arts in business in the economy and medicine and all these things? That's just some separate realm of natural.

Of.

Nature. Where natural law and neutral common principles hold sway, but it's got nothing to do with Christ and his kingdom. I mean, yeah, God created it sure and in some abstract sense He's sovereign over it at all.