September 15, 2016 Show with William Downing & Edward Dalcour on “The Christian Warfare”

Iron Sharpens Iron

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania It's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors

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Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron.

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So one man sharpens another Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour

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And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions

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Now, here's our host Chris Arnton Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania And the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming

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This is Chris Arntz in your host of iron sharpens iron wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 15th day of September 2016

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I am so delighted that I have two guests on today that I've wanted to interview for a long time

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And I finally have this opportunity They're both going to be addressing the same topic the

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Christian warfare and for the first hour we have on the program. Dr William Downing Mountain Man Bill as many have called him.

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He is a pastor of Sovereign Grace Baptist Church of Silicon Valley, California and he is the author of a number of books and the publisher of a multitude of books and on the second hour we have

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Dr. Edward Delcor Mutual friend of dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries who has highly recommended dr.

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Delcor for many years He is the founder of the Department of Christian Defense and he's going to be on for the second hour and they are both promoting

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A Bible conference that I hope all of you who live in or near, California or who are able to get there

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Will attend but first let me welcome for the very first time to iron sharpens iron radio

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Dr. William Downing Can you hear me brother?

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Okay, great I was thought that we might have lost connection there Well, brother

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Downing. I'm honored to have you on the program I have heard about you for so many years of people who love you dearly and who have been benefited by your wisdom and knowledge

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One of the funniest stories I've ever heard about you is from my friend pastor Dave Dykstra Who said when he was having one of his first conversations with you?

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You were having a conversation about hunting which you both love and he said that you mentioned that you are

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A hog hunter a wild hog hunter wild boar hunter and he asked what do you use?

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To hunt the boar and in you said I use a knife and he said no not I don't mean to butcher it

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I'm talking about what do you use to hunt it? And he said no, I hide in a tree wait for a boar to pass below jump on its back and I stab it to death.

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I Love this story and it's actually true. You confirm that with me and And And but you've

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I think from our last conversation you said that you've retired from the hog hunting at least not for now.

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Anyway That's true I worked for years with a with a guide

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I live in California and it's no longer legal To stick a wild pig with a knife hmm, because it's cruel and unusual, of course, we hunted with dogs and That is a wild adventure

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The real reason that it's illegal in California is because it's quiet and they're afraid of poachers every it's

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Wild pigs are classified in California as a big game animal and it brings in a lot of state revenue

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So the politics are always involved. So in other words, it's legal to hunt them with a gun, but not with a knife

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Would it be would it be illegal you to use a crossbow as well? No, it's just a knife is is silent you can hunt them with with other means

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I took my last wild pig about a 250 pound pig This last

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March I collapsed going down a hill. Hmm. I'm just I'm just shy of 76 years old and I I spend more time studying and praying and less time getting out at my age

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So the Lord is in the process of sanctifying me Well first before we even go into information about The topic at hand the

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Christian warfare I want to know something about your own personal background your testimony of coming to Christ and then also

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To coming to embrace the doctrines of sovereign grace That's all one in the same.

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We have to go back to the year 1950 hmm. I was I was about 10 years old at the time and My family we start my father was converted in 1948 a very wicked

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Religious less man. We had no religion in the family whatsoever My mother was raised a

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Seventh -day Adventist and she had of course left all of that so we grew up without religion in 1948

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God suddenly and Thoroughly converted my father It was an amazing thing because I knew him before I knew him after and by the way

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He was he's dead. Now. He was my father in the flesh My brother in the

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Lord and my son in the ministry Wow. I said on his ordination council he was ordained at age 57 and Died at age 65 and toward the last of his ministry short ministry a radio ministry at his own expense and Holding church in his home with a few people.

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He saw a revival among the college students at a State University About a hundred and fifty of them converted in the space of two years

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But at any rate he was converted in 1948 a thorough sudden conversion

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We began attending a Baptist Church. It was not a fundamentalist Church It was an admixture, but they they pushed me to go forward and one night.

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I went forward in church There was an old man who was filling the pulpit we were without a pastor and I went forward and I suppose

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I prayed the prayer and I did what I was asked and told to do and Ten years later

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Ten years later to age almost 21 God suddenly Converted me.

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I had been attending a Fundamentalist Church out of I suppose a stricken conscience

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About many things I went into a whole time of depression. It lasted about a year and I once put a gun to my head.

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Well, I was reading philosophers I was trying to find sense and meaning and at age 20 -21 nobody has these problems

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But I did and it narrowed down to that that great time of depression was a conviction of sin

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And I went forward in church again in this fundamentalist Church and the pastor asked me says why are you coming?

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And I said to rededicate my life and join this church. I mean, that's what a man supposed to do

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Everybody was ecstatic and I'm Standing there thinking why don't they just leave me alone?

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So after the service that night, I helped the pastor put away all the chairs. We met in a rented building and I walked out we lived along the coast and the fog was rolling in off the coast

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And I looked up into the sky and I said, okay God now you can get off my back I've done everything

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I can and of course the rebellion was there I wanted to get rid of the burden like Christian and pilgrims progress, but I couldn't put it together

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And of course I was without my doctrinal underpinnings So I went home that night

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I could not sleep and in the middle of the night on a cold linoleum floor these things you remember

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Just weeping and utterly broken and I said look I can't live for you

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God and you want my life I know it. I can't live for you. I've tried it before it doesn't work

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If you want to kill me just do it now and get it over with I had come to the great crisis the end of my rope and I was there was a horrifying experience and I laid there in a cold sweat and nothing happened

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So I got up on my knees and said, all right from here on out. I will live for you and I went to bed and fell asleep.

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I got up the next morning was a Monday morning. I went to work I was driving a concrete mixer. We were pouring missile sites at Vandenberg Air Force Base and I walked into the dispatch shack and the

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The foreman saw me and he slammed his chair in the wall He says what in the blankety -blank happened to you were you with a woman last night?

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And I said no my face was shining I was a different man and Of course everything went wrong in construction work as it usually does and I didn't swear that day as the good carnal

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Christian I had been for ten years. I didn't lose my temper and the next day I was washing out the shoots of my mixer getting ready to go back to the batch plant and I looked down at my hands

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I was shaking like a leaf and I I said out loud God has done something to me and that was utterly foreign to the way

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I'd been raised or anything. I had been taught and The first thing that dawned on me was

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I love my father I had resented him and I had feared him and all of a sudden

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I understood how he as the one true Christian Faced a family of professing

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Christians that weren't converted and he and I became exceedingly close Until the moment of his death.

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We were we were closer than brothers and closer as Christians than father and son at any rate

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They made me the teacher of the high school and college age Although I couldn't read music at that time.

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I had a strong voice Before some surgery ruined my vocal cords and they made me song leader of the church

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We were studying through the book of Exodus and I was reading Arthur Pink And he caused me to question many things.

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Well, I started reading through the Bible with understanding I was going through the New Testament January was an

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El Nino year out here and I called in and they said no work that they were expecting a storm

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So I went back to read my Bible and I read through the first chapter of the book of Ephesians that morning

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I remember closing my Bible and Sitting there and thinking this if he loved me then

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He loves me now And it was through the doctrine of election that I gained a true scriptural assurance of faith and over the next two years before I went to Bible college many things fell into place and I I was gaining doctrine.

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I was departing from the teaching of the church. I would hear the pastor preaching He was a fine man

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I loved him dearly and I would thumb over a few pages in my Bible and put my finger on this verse and that verse that Contradicted him and I thought

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I can't trust anyone. I have to study on my own Prayed for God to open my eyes.

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Well, I got to Bible school and I thought it would be next to heaven and I was greatly mistaken because all the dregs of society that cats

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That can't make it in life end up in Bible school at Saints And so I was in Bible school the third week of Bible school.

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I was sitting in the chapel and the business manager took the chapel the chapel speaker didn't show up and He said

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I want you to quote or read a verse of Scripture he would ask questions Well one of the about the fourth fifth question.

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What would you tell a man about the drawing of the Holy Spirit? I raised my hand and he said yes young man

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I stood up and I said John 644 said he said sit down and I sat down and people started saying what he's a hyper cow

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I Thought that's how God drew me to himself John 644 is precious to me.

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God drew me to himself. He saved me from myself He saved me from the reigning power of sin these things

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I had settled so I went back to the dormitory and I got out a dictionary and I looked up hyper

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Calvinist and it said see Calvinism. I Looked up and said they believe this this this this and this and I thought

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I must be the only Calvinist left in the entire world Well one of our professors he taught the life of Christ class, dr.

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Peter Conley was used mightily of God in the Fisher folk revival in the 1920s and he got up in when he was lecturing and he mentioned

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Ephesians 1 4 and I thought This is why he's different. This is why he prays differently than the other professors

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This is why he's walks with God that man is a Calvinist I went to see him and I talked through my conversion experience my my decisionism all these other things he recommended some things for me to read and The only falling out

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I had with my father was when he Told the pastor

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I'd become a hyper Calvinist said well students become extreme, you know He a year later after coming himself to the doctrines of grace after being a

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Bible teacher for years Was voted out of the church under discipline for espousing a 16th century humanistic philosophy called

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Calvinist So they started a church and we had about 25 or so people and when

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I graduated They called me as pastor and I spent spent my first year and a half it with that small group studying and cutting wood for a living by the way and They gave me enough money so I could always have my suit pressed and have a good haircut

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And that's my that's my beginning. I I was not I was engaged to a girl fine

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We've been married now almost 50 years 49 years and counting. She was still doing her final year in Bible College and when we got married,

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I resigned the church and left my dad was moving to Alaska at that time and I Went back to school.

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I know I needed my Greek and Hebrew I needed to go in a different direction than fundamentalism was pushing me and I've been reading and studying on my own.

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I taught myself enough Greek and Hebrew to read it on my own I went back and we lasted a semester

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I was pastoring a small church the trustees put the church off -limits. They fired. Dr.

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Conley. He went back to To Texas Houston, Pasadena, Texas the

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Texas College of Theology that he had started about 1960 or so and I went but down there

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I finished my theological education I taught there for several years and then in the providence of God we returned to California and I became the administrator of a small college in Sacramento California the capital we stayed there for four years.

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I passed her to church there I taught everything there was to teach I administered the small school and then we moved over here in the

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Bay Area I passed it a church here for 20 years. Then we started our present church in 1994 and We have a small in -house seminary.

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I have five students We have a varied ministry a prison ministry a rescue mission

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Ministry and a rest home ministry as well as the regular preaching and what

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I've been doing as I've slowed down from my outdoors Activities is writing and researching and writing basically textbooks and other books for the students and for others our

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Catechism it's called now a catechism on Bible doctrine is in five languages and used in a lot of third world countries as textbook and It's been the blessing of God.

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It's been a crooked path But God has been in every twist and turn from beginning to end

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Hindsight is is 2020 foresight is faith and faith alone amen, and One of the things that sets your church apart most reformed

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Baptist churches That I am familiar with Adhere to the 1689

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London Baptist Confession and some of the New Covenant theology Calvinist Baptists Adhere to the first one in confession your church adheres to both if you could explain why and what would the difference be?

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well Some people would would call me various nicknames known among the

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Baptists. None of them fit I am NOT a landmarker although the 1644 does not espouse a universal invisible church as more of a local church emphasis

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Whereas the 1689 Deals with the universal invisible church.

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I take a slightly different view On that but I don't have a falling out with my reformed

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Baptist brethren We in our statement of faith say that we hold to these two confessions as a general

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Expression of our faith there might be a point here or there where we might have some disagreement, but the 1689

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Remains the most profound Thorough and consistent Baptist confession of faith and Yes that and that sets us apart of course from the

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New Covenant Theology people I know some of these people we've had our disagreements with them and so forth

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We hold quite strongly to the to the law of God the moral law and its perpetuity

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And I will say this my reformed Baptist brethren shudder when I say this I was

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For many years a good personal friend of RJ Rush Dooney And my father was too.

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He always called me Howard's son Howard was my father's name and He and my father that looked almost alike with their gray beards

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And so forth and I asked my dad once I said, you know, you and Rush could pass for brothers

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He looked at me and said well, there's only one difference He's I have no brains and he has enough for both of us, but he never challenged my

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Baptist convictions And he was a very pleasant man personally, and I was at his last two public meetings

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I took the men of my church to hear him lecture on the infallibility of Scripture. He was 80 about Oh 80 81 or 2 at that time.

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His voice was strong and melodious He had a wonderful speaking voice and they treated me.

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Well And so did did his his wife. We had a good relationship I'm a strong Baptist.

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I have most of his books I've profited from reading them, but then again, my library is about half heretical because I collect books

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I I when I want a book I can reach up and get it I'm about 3 ,500 volumes next door in our study center library.

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We have over 5 ,000 So we never want for good solid material Now, did you ever reach the point of becoming?

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one of the very few Baptist theonomists I had a

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Conversation with Greg Bonson. He came up and spoke at a Christian school He had just had open -heart surgery the year before he was would be

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I would be in He was a little younger than I am I'll be 76 here in three months and he was

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He had changed completely I had heard him years before and I said I I wouldn't have recognized you it gave him quite a lease on life

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And I asked him I said would you agree with me that to the extent our nation? Follows the law of God to that extent it is theonomic and he had to agree with me

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But we had a we had a we had a good conversation. I wanted to spend more time with him and he died

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I was going to to go south and to Southern, California and take a seminar

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From him and and he sickened and died. Can I tell you a little insight from a man?

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Who's now dead? Yes Mike Castle was a pastor there and he also owns several bookstores in the

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Los Angeles area He was a friend of mine from about 1973 he died of cancer here a few years ago.

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He was quite a man of books He had a personal library of thousands of volumes.

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We were good friends and They asked him the family after Greg Bonson died.

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Dr. Bonson died. They said would you come and evaluate this library and they were thinking perhaps of selling it

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They needed some money. He went through that entire library of a ball was over 5 ,000 volumes

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He said number one. The library is useless. He said all of the books in this library are

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Underlined notes in the margins and the backs are broken. He literally wore out that library of genius quality

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He said on the other hand, it's worth it. It's it's It's beyond worth and beyond value.

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Keep it as a monument to your father and use it in they have a study center there now But I've known a lot of people who are very prominent

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I'm one of the unknowns it was always in the background, but I've been privileged to know Rolf Barnard Several years before he died

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Pharaoh Griswold was my favorite preacher. He and my dad were good friends We had him out here once or twice a year and I preached his funeral in February of 1982 when he died

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He was he was a dear man to me a good friend and just an awesome preacher

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Yes, I've heard much about him. And I Also knew not nearly as closely as you did, but I knew

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RJ Rush Dooney, he was a client of mine and he hosted a Weekly program on the radio station that I worked for for 15 years of New Jersey and He I remember him being a very warm man and nearly every single book that I mailed to him

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I used to if I like the book and I had an extra copy Because sometimes publishers supply me with books

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Because they want me to set up Interviews with their authors and I would I would ship off a copy to rush

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Dooney and nearly every single time He would write a favorable review of it in the calcedon report.

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So it was a Quite an interesting man didn't agree with everything. He believed by any stretch of the imagination, but I I Appreciated his irenic spirit.

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He was not some kind of a Sectarian to an extreme when it came to his reconstruction at least

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I didn't find him to be that way Yes, he had a 50 ,000 volume library.

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I suppose is still there at Vallecito. He had books on Every conceivable subject and he had a master's degree in education.

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And so he was prone in that way I have a master's degree. Well a Master of Arts in Education lifetime teaching credentials in the state of,

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California I had to teach as a substitute teacher in the public school Of course, I couldn't do that now and I haven't been able to do that for years

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It is so liberal and so perverted here in the state of, California, but it was good.

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It was good experience and The Lord blessed in that if I started out and I really thought after my college teaching experience

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That I had been called to be a Christian educator so I went through and I got what education

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I could and It was it was an interesting journey.

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I hope it wasn't all futile, but I tried to put it to good use I also had the pleasure of meeting

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Dr. Greg Bonson back in the 1990s and I interviewed him in a pastor's study at the church where he was conducting a conference and I used a handheld recorder and interviewed

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Dr. Bonson and I still a little tear runs down my cheek to this day because I lost the tape

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Yes, I had I've listened to some of his tapes some of his debates and I've seen some videos of some of his teaching and debates and He seemed to be innocuous

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Like a little boy standing up there and then he would Develop the issues.

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He had a brilliant mind. It was it was a pleasure to have known him and to be able to have conversations with him

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We're gonna be going to a break right now. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question for Dr.

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William Downing our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com chris

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Arnzen at gmail .com Please give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside of the good old

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USA and I look forward to hearing from you and your questions after these messages.

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So don't go away. We're coming right back with dr William Downing Chris Arnzen here and I can't wait to head down to Atlanta, Georgia, and here's my friend.

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Dr James White to tell you why hi, I'm James White of Alpha and Omega ministries I hope you join me at the g3 conference hosted by Pastor Josh Bice and Praise Mill Baptist Church at the

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Georgia International Convention Center in Atlanta January 19th through the 21st in celebration of the 500th anniversary of the

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Protestant Reformation I'll be joined by Paul Washer Steve Lawson da Carson Votie Balcom Conrad and Bayway Phil Johnson Rosaria Butterfield Todd Friel and a host of other speakers who are dedicated the pillars of what g3 stands for Gospel grace and glory for more details go to g3 conference .com.

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That's g3 conference .com Thanks, James. Make sure you greet me at the iron sharpens iron exhibit booth while you're there

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in we have wonderful two hours waiting for you

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Actually about 90 minutes now with two guests who are both speaking at the same conference

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We have for the first hour with a half hour to go Dr. William Downing of Sovereign Grace Baptist Church of Silicon Valley, California and coming up in our second hour

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We have dr. Edward Delcourt the founder of Department of Christian Defense Our theme is the same as the upcoming conference the

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Christian warfare and that's going to be held in Dublin California at the

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Christ Bible Church and For more information about that conference go to Christ Bible Church org

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Christ Bible Church org and some of the speakers are the aforementioned dr

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William Downing who's on my program today Jeff Rose jerk of Jeremiah crime ministries a really powerful brother in the

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Lord a Dr. Edward Delcourt as we already mentioned who's coming up on the second hour of the program.

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Dr. Paul Nelson Who is the author of? Presuppositionalism And this is a book that I just received not long ago from our brother on the phone right now.

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Dr. William Downing mailed it to me presuppositionalism a biblical approach to politics to apologetics and This was published by Sovereign Grace Baptist Church with their

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PIRS of publishing ministry, which stands for Pacific Institute of Religious Studies and Also speaking is pastor

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Tony Okoro and I'm probably mispronouncing that name pastor Leo Galonza jr.

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And Pastor Joe Jackowitz, who is the pastor of Christ Bible Church in Dublin, California?

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and I apologize for any to anyone whose name I mispronounced and Once again the the website to go to for more details on this conference, which is being held

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Saturday the 24th of September and Sunday the 25th of September for more details go to Christ Bible Church org

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Christ Bible Church org and Let's go to one of our listeners here who has a question

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Is the most referred to passage in relation to Christian warfare? Ephesians chapter 6 the armor of God.

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Well, that's that's an excellent question. Let me read that passage In Ephesians chapter 6 verses 10 through 18

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Finally be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might put on the full armor of God So that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil

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For our struggle is not against flesh and blood but against the rulers against the powers against the world forces of this darkness against the spiritual forces of weakness wickedness and The heavenly places therefore take up the full

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Armor of God so that you will be able to resist in the evil day and having done everything to stand firm stand firm therefore having girded your loins with truth and having put on the breastplate of righteousness and Having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace in addition to all taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one and Take the heart of salvation and the sword of the

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Spirit which is the Word of God with all prayer and petition pray at all times in the spirit and With this in view be on the alert with all perseverance and petition for all the

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Saints. Well, uh Dr. Downing the question is is this the most referred to?

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Passage when it comes to Christian warfare, and is this where you're getting your inspiration for the conference?

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Well, this is what has been assigned to me I'll be the last speaker and I'm going to do what our

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Lord said I'm going to gather up the fragments that remain that nothing be lost

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And I'm going to deal with and take the sword of the Spirit which is the

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Word of God the passage itself is is very very

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Detailed and interesting Paul, of course had much to do with the Roman soldiers knew the equipment and so forth and He does not mention the spear which is interesting, but the one weapon is of course the

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The sword it was the Makaira the

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Makaira we we make the CH not the hard but the soft machete and Like if we get our word machete from Makaira, and it was a short sword with the blade was double -edged

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It was about two inches wide and about two feet long Was an awesome weapon and used for close combat hmm

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Just out of curiosity since you published the book that I mentioned by Paul s

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Nelson presuppositional ism a Biblical approach to apologetics. I'm assuming you are a presuppositional list as opposed to an evidential list and if you could give us a summary of the differences because obviously

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Apologetics is a part of spiritual warfare when we are dealing with people in the media and in literature and in pulpits who are speaking lies that Contradict what

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God has taught Through the inspiration of his Holy Spirit and his word So if you could tell us briefly about the difference between presuppositional ism and and evidential ism

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All right. First, I hope that you're able to interview Dr. Nelson, he's my associate pastor here.

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Yes. Oh, well, God willing. Yes. He has a PhD in chemistry He has a chemistry lab.

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He makes a living at that and he makes tracers for DNA and He is a brilliant man and has been with us.

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Thank you was ordained in this church about 12 years ago. I had to take a leave of absence.

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I was undergoing cancer treatment He became the leading elder and then when I returned we share the eldership here

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Presuppositionalism in essence presupposes the authority of God's Word I'm trying to think of the man

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Robert Raymond who died here a year or so ago in his He's written several good works

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One is out of print The name escapes me, but he put it this way do we reason from the truth or to the truth and One thing is inescapable if we use history logic archaeology or a host of other things science and so forth to prove the

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Bible is the Word of God, that's Evidentialism they reason to the

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Word of God rather than from the Word of God Then these things will always have more authority than the

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Word of God itself greater credentials the lesser that's inescapable so the the best that the evidentialist can do is demonstrate the probability of the presuppositions declares the

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Word of God Presupposes its authority divine authority and declares it as such

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Can I can I give you a preview of my message? Oh, yeah on the

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Christian warfare Oh, yeah, and and and take and the word means to grasp with a hand

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We get our word dexterous from that Greek word and take from the hand though They the sword of the

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Spirit which is the Word of God now What do you think the word word there is in the Greek there are two different words?

36:10

It's not the word logos. It's the word crema something that is uttered.

36:15

It's the spoken Word of God and verse 18 begins with a with a participle

36:22

Praying with and the main thrust of using and taking the

36:27

Word of God is in prayer It's the spoken Word of God. And of course, that's part of my

36:34

My message in this and I'm going to deal with God willing the spoken

36:39

Word of God in temptation our Lord's wilderness temptation the spoken Word of God in Evangelism the spoken

36:47

Word of God in apologetics and the spoken Word of God in prayer Amen.

36:53

Now there is a thing that has become very popular at least in as a buzzword or in Christian lingo

37:04

As of late called lifestyle evangelism now I truly believe that a

37:11

Christian's life is a very powerful tool to Spread the gospel of you know, if people see

37:20

God in the way you live That's something that God can use to draw these people to himself

37:26

But isn't Very often this abused where the spoken Word of God and the actual proclamation of the gospel is avoided and therefore people are just relying on the fact that they're kind and generous and hospitable and charitable and so on Oh the first thing

37:46

I will say is Man was created to think God's thoughts after him and you dear brother

37:52

Chris are thinking our Lord's thoughts after him You shall receive power after that The Holy Ghost has come upon you and ye shall be my witnesses not you will witness for me but you shall be my witness and of course we witness with our entire life, but We can simply be kind and and that fails if the

38:15

Word of God is not Absolutely declared or not in the lifestyle, but in the

38:21

Word of God is the message of salvation We have CJ and Lennonhurst, Long Island who asks are these forces of darkness

38:34

Demons and how much influence do they actually have over the life of a Christian?

38:43

I? I don't know which version you were reading out of perhaps the New American Standard Bible when you read the passage

38:50

Yes, that's what I read from. Yes It says in the King James, which is in my mind

38:59

Something about the the The powers of the world's darkness and really it's the world powers of this darkness powerful demonic forces and of course the big lie is the devil does not exist and His methodology by the way,

39:18

I don't say this is a Baptist. I say it as a Christian. The devil is a Methodist and we have

39:27

Toss Mothadayos to Diabolo But the methodology of the devil the word translated wilds is methodos.

39:35

We get a word methodology from it It's it only occurs twice in the New Testament there and in Ephesians chapter 4

39:42

We're translated a lion way to deceive and Paul said in another place. We're not ignorant of his devices

39:49

Satan never comes with a frontal attack. It seems There's always there's a subtlety about it we see this in our

39:58

Lord's temptation Which I'm going to deal with hopefully in this message He came to our

40:04

Lord and it's a first -class conditional sentence in the Greek since you are the Son of God tell these

40:12

Stones loaves to become That that's a good translation. Tell these stones look you you have you have the power to do this.

40:19

It's a legitimate appetite Do this and our Lord was hungry and our Lord answered it is written

40:25

Gagor opti It stands written with undiminishing authority not by bread alone shall live the man but by every word

40:34

Proceeding out of the mouth of God present tense as though God's Word It's it's being spoken right now.

40:41

It has an undiminishing authority But yes, there are demons and yes, they are very powerful, but they're under the sovereign control of God We don't believe in a dualist dualism or a dualistic philosophy

40:56

I remember the old preacher who said, you know What is election that God casts his vote the devil casts his vote.

41:04

It's up for you to cast your vote You've heard such cliches, you know over the years. Well, the devil doesn't have a vote in this

41:11

God has and he is fulfilling his eternal redemptive purpose far far above Be and beyond our comprehension and the devil has a part in that that brings us to the problem of evil, doesn't it?

41:25

Hmm, and I think that Greg Bonson in his book always ready does an excellent job

41:32

In dealing with the problem of evil and I've paraphrased him very much in our catechism that you

41:39

Received here the other day our catechism on Bible doctrine I've paraphrased his arguments on the problem of evil that God ordains that evil exists and he overrules it to his ultimate good and purpose

41:53

Amen, we have Arnie and Perry County, Pennsylvania and He asks

42:01

I am constantly pressured by many evangelical friends

42:06

To be more ecumenical with Roman Catholics and others who disagree with us on the gospel because of the spiritual warfare that we are facing with liberalism and leftism and pro -abortionism and pro -homosexuality and the list goes on What is your best advice on how to?

42:27

Most biblically respond to these people who think that these things that are destroying the fabric of our culture here in America can only be fought by ecumenism with people who stand with us against things like abortion homosexuality and liberalism

42:49

Well, I've just been invited over the internet to a local interfaith service here not only and and Trans -denominational service but an interfaith service our community is filled with Muslims and Everyone gets together if the devil cannot get us to deny the faith

43:13

Can get us to compromise? Just as good and it does the same amount of damage

43:19

We have to stand where the Word of God stands And of course the the liberal argument is that our

43:27

Lord himself did not speak against homosexuality for instance, but the totality of the

43:35

Bible is the very Word of God and Romans chapter 1 the latter part.

43:42

I heard a preacher He we were having a conversation and I've known to take a little different view of things

43:48

And he told me he says God is going to judge our Society because of homosexuality and I said that's not true and he jumped he thought

43:58

I was some type of a strange person I said if you read Romans chapter 1 the latter part

44:04

Homosexuality is a sign of divine judgment Hmm. Yes, and and these other compromises

44:11

They are signs of jet God's judgment upon our society and we must speak where the

44:17

Bible speaks and I I've met some strange people that called themselves ministers preachers imams

44:27

And Others and I even met a rabbi once and I spoke to him.

44:33

I gave him a greeting in Hebrew It wasn't the usual Hebrew greeting And so he looked at me and said where did you learn your

44:39

Hebrew and I said in Bible College? Then he knew I was a Christian I Usually that they'll say shalom and they'll follow it by certain work

44:50

Well, my key. Well, that means peace my brother. Well, that's not a regular greeting

44:55

He had to but it was it was an interesting time and leave me and I asked questions when

45:02

I talk with these people Why do you believe thus and such what yours and I ask it kindly and so forth try to draw them out and The tendency is to go with the flow to go with the age

45:14

But compromise is is the result of deceit Deceive themselves.

45:20

I can win people to Christ by compromising on everything But when

45:26

I've done that I haven't won them number one and I haven't won them to the Christ of the Bible number two reductionism

45:34

Reducing things down and and I say from my background is fundamentalism They teach a reductionist salvation

45:42

They've reduced it down to a prayer and signing a card to a formula one size fits all but there's no repentance

45:49

Or seldom and God saves people in spite of this, but there's no repentance Nor is this followed usually by a converted life.

45:58

So behold, we call them carnal Christians and we ask for rededications I told one dear brother.

46:04

There's there is rededication the Bible one times the rebel bulls temple That's it

46:10

And as a Baptist and as a former fundamentalist people

46:17

People throw rocks at the Catholics or the liberals or something else and I say brethren

46:22

We've invented our own doctrines and there's a whole list of them The problem is not only that we've invented them, but these become necessary pillars of the whole system

46:33

And that's fatal Yeah, when you when you keep referring to fundamentalism it is interesting that the fundamentalist modernist controversy there were many

46:44

Thoroughgoing Calvinists involved in that like Jay Gresham Machen and others and yet it seems that the fundamentalist movement

46:52

Was hijacked by those who are enemies of the doctrines of grace now that is a bit of a broad brush there because I know of Thoroughgoing Fundamentalists who are

47:04

Calvinist as well. I even know some very thoroughgoing Calvinists that are landmark

47:09

Baptists, but This is a sad thing and it causes me to scratch my head very often

47:16

When those who have as a pillar of what they stand for the inerrancy of Scripture That and also salvation by grace through faith alone

47:27

That they cannot see that they are very often contradiction contradicting those very things with their understanding of man's nature they very often come very close to non sacramental

47:45

Romanism and their approach to things and Sometimes even explain things away that are clearly written in the

47:53

Bible Almost in a way that a liberal would that denies inerrancy Yes, I have seen this is my thinking on it, but fundamentalism passed through three stages the first stage had some reformed people in it because they stood for what they called the fundamentals of the faith and Even in that first stage it bothers me because there are some things upon which we might disagree

48:22

But if we narrow down the fundamentals to four or five or six doctrines and so forth then we've we've altered we've modified

48:32

Christianity from its its biblical context, but I said and then fundamentalism became identified with dispensational antinomianism and dispensational arminianism and Finney's influence came in To to give to us the altar call for Finney his idea of conversion regeneration was basically psychological as a

49:00

Pelagian he believed that man had a free will and so all of this became

49:06

Amalgamated with the fundamentalist movement in that in my days. I went to school in the early 60s in a big fundamentalist college and It was hard -nosed fundamentalism then they were against rock music they were against the contemporary

49:24

They told the line they were they were very hard and now they've all gone contemporary and They they have espoused in the last

49:36

Oh 20 30 years. I was in school 50 years ago. Mine's a long time They've espoused all the contemporary things because what has remained constant is buildings bodies and books as one person said it or the megachurch mentality get as many people as you can run them through the formula and to do that you have to bow to the contemporary and I've been in some services where I just absolutely how things have morphed and Changed over the last few decades

50:12

It bears little if any resemblance at all to the fundamentalism that I knew.

50:18

Yes, and of course That is not a monolithic group of people for instance. I know Fundamentalist Baptists that would call

50:26

Bob Jones University a liberal institution and so on so I there are very varying differences of opinion within that group, but Go ahead if you wanted to say no,

50:40

I was just going to make a comment. No, that's okay I'm doing a study now on the Scribes and Pharisees and and I'm Preparing a message entitled the curse of mere religion

50:54

We can hold some doctrines firmly But if we become exclusive saying we're the only ones that have the truth and everybody else is wrong

51:04

Then apart from God's grace we become very self -righteous and very critical of others and we will begin to excuse sinful behavior and ungodly lifestyles because We're within the group and every group is prone to this.

51:21

Mm -hmm. Yes, and so the Scribes and Pharisees are alive today They said about our

51:26

Lord he cannot be of God because he keepeth not the Sabbath and it was their Sabbath traditions and And and then they said he was he was demon -possessed and There was a

51:38

Samaritan and had a devil and if they said that about our sinless impeccable

51:43

Lord What will they say about us? Amen, we have Murray in Kinross Scotland who asks

51:52

It's very encouraging to hear. Dr. Downing's testimony. He is obviously very conscious of all that God has done for him

52:00

Would he say that those who are more aware of God's working in their lives are

52:05

Often those who are ready willing and able to put on the whole armor of God the more we see

52:12

His hand in the past the more we trust him for the present in the future,

52:19

I think from the Word of God and from my own experience

52:26

Which I hope echoes the Word of God that conversion is a definite thing and at least here in the

52:34

United States many of our fundamentalist evangelical churches are

52:41

Filled with unconverted people. They've they've prayed the prayer. They they were sincere.

52:46

I don't doubt their sincerity I was sincere as a little boy I've seen others of that and I've seen them go by the wayside like the stony ground hearers

52:57

Enthusiastic at first and then falling away I've seen them in Bible school leave Bible school to go back and live in sin and so forth and And it's a sad thing.

53:08

It's a tragic thing But I believe and I've seen people truly converted no mistake about it and they've stayed by the stuff

53:17

Over the years the word whole armor or put on the whole armor of God the

53:22

Greek word has one word there It's panoply a panoply. It's a suit of armor. It all comes together.

53:28

You can't say I think of the old Oh my flannel graph in Sunday school.

53:35

I always warn our people against flannel graph theology The flannel graph was there you put the poor fella up and he's got a loin cloth and then you put the helmet on and his

53:45

Loins gird about with truth you give him this you give him that you give him something else But it fails to see the whole arm is the panoply of God it all fits together we have all of it or we have none of it in in that sense and People think of it in in bits and pieces and it gives a false

54:04

I think sometimes a false impression, but there are many people who are not aware of spiritual warfare at all

54:12

They've accepted Christ they've received Christ The the terminology that evangelicals use today.

54:20

They've done these things Because they want to keep their family together they want to hold their marriage together

54:26

They don't want to see their children on drugs there's a host of motives when we talk with people and we get to know them and Really?

54:34

They haven't fled to Christ and laid hold of him because They were faced with their sin and it's reigning power nor have they been delivered from the reigning power of sin they may be moral people well -meaning people religious people a very active people, but Perhaps they are still

54:54

Dead in trespasses and sin we can be very active physically and be dead in trespasses and sin

55:00

We can be active morally we can be active religiously and still be dead in trespasses and sin

55:07

Trials make the man spiritual pilgrimage with all of its twists turns and bumps tragedies and trials they they

55:17

Witness to us whether or not we have a firm grasp on the Lord Jesus Christ through his word

55:23

Amen, and I'd really like you to conclude your portion of the program today by just letting you

55:29

Summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners for about three or four minutes before we

55:37

Turn the mic over to dr. Edward Elkhorn. I believe from a study of God's Word that God has always had a praying remnant and That the true hope for the extension of the kingdom of God is revival

55:55

Revival and to if one would study you have my lectures on revival. I believe I sent that to you but Revival is the need and the history of our country of these

56:09

United States of America the first Great Awakening the second Great Awakening the great prayer revival of 1857 and the great worldwide revival of 1904 and following these stopped much ungodliness, they raised the moral climate of our country and These things have been the blessing of God our churches need revival and we need in society a

56:34

Spiritual awakening and that that must come from God pray for revival

56:41

Amen, and when you say that The revival that you're speaking of is not the manufactured revival that many

56:51

Fundamentalists and Pentecostals and other types of Christians will will say we are having a revival

56:58

This Sunday or what have you this is really a manufactured thing and you're not speaking about that at all

57:04

Are you know revival comes from the skies? It comes from God God does what we cannot do

57:11

The idea that revivals could be worked up and promoted came from Charles Finney and his pervasive influence

57:18

That was the real watershed of American Christianity with that came all of the characteristics of modern fundamental evangelical

57:28

Arminianism, hmm, and I would urge our listeners if you missed my interview about a year ago with Jerry Johnson about Charles Finney it is quite an eye -opener.

57:39

I mean the man was more Pelagian than Roman Catholics and in fact

57:45

Jerry Johnson brought up an interesting fact. He said that Charles Finney was actually a monergist

57:52

He wasn't a synergist, but he was the bad kind of monergist because he believed salvation was entirely in the hands of man

58:00

Yes, indeed. He was he was not an Arminian some called him an Arminian, right? He was he was a

58:06

Pelagian right? I sent you my book. I think lectures on Calvinism and Arminianism I devote a hundred pages to Finney because people have told me he couldn't have believed this so I quoted him extensively and It's very sad the influence that he has had and his followers have had

58:25

Because Americans are not interested in history. We're looking forward to the rapture

58:30

So not interested in the past not interested in history Therefore they are open to many of these religious errors that we've inherited from previous generations

58:39

Well, I want to thank you so much Dr. William Downing for being on the program and I look forward to having you back as often as you are willing and able and of course

58:48

God willing and the website for a Sovereign Grace Baptist Church of Silicon Valley, California is sgb csv .org

59:01

sgb for Sovereign Grace Baptist CSV for Church of Silicon Valley dot org

59:08

Sgb C V dot org. Thank you so much brother, and I hope that you come back soon on the program

59:15

Thank you as a pleasure pleasure to talk with you and have this time great Well, God bless and coming up next is going to be after our station break

59:25

Dr. Edward Delcor who is going to continue our theme of The Christian warfare, so don't go away.

59:33

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That's wrbc .us Welcome back.

01:03:33

This is Chris Arns And if you just tuned us in our first hour we had the privilege and honor of having dr

01:03:41

William Downing on the program for the for the very first time ever on iron sharpens iron he is pastor of Sovereign Grace Baptist Church with Silicon Valley, California and Now we have joining us.

01:03:54

Dr. Edward Delcor another brother in Christ I've been wanting to get on this program for many years and he is the founder of the

01:04:02

Department of Christian Defense and We are discussing a Bible conference that he and Pastor Downing are both speaking at along with others

01:04:13

This is the Christian Warfare Conference, which is being held at Christ Bible Church in Dublin, California on Saturday September 24th and Sunday September 25th

01:04:26

And for more details on this conference go to Christ Bible Church org

01:04:32

Christ Bible Church org and by the way, I want to thank my friend

01:04:37

Timothy Oliver for informing about informing me about this conference He is the founder of Christian soldiers ministries and Timothy Oliver's website is

01:04:49

Jesus is creator org Jesus is Creator org, but it's my honor and privilege to welcome.

01:04:57

Dr Edward Delcor for the very first time to iron sharpens iron radio. Great to have you on the air brother

01:05:04

Delighted to be here. Thank you very much for inviting me Yes, in fact

01:05:10

I have I don't even know if you remember this but it's kind of a humorous story the last time I spoke with you prior to our

01:05:18

Recent communication about this interview. I was talking to you while sitting in a barber chair in a

01:05:26

Turkish barber shop Getting a straight razor shave and I was speaking very disparagingly about the

01:05:33

Muslim faith Not realizing that I was sitting in a Turkish barbershop with a straight razor to my throat

01:05:42

And That of course is not to in mean to insult all Muslim people by any stretch of the imagination as our mutual friend

01:05:50

Dr. James R. White is very frequent to remind us. They are not a monolithic People but anyway, dr.

01:05:58

Delcor. It's great to have you finally on the program and You are founder of Department of Christian Defense if you could explain what that is

01:06:07

Department of Christian Defense is a apologetic educational ministry based out of Los Angeles, California We provide literature we provide a lot of articles resources on not all

01:06:22

Christian apologetic, but general theology and General biblical teachings on for subjects

01:06:30

We also go out. Well, I do and I speak and do some lectures a couple debates and I enjoy

01:06:38

Just the privilege that God has placed me on in this ministry Amen.

01:06:44

Well, if you could just as we did with Dr. Downing if you could tell us something about your own

01:06:49

Upbringing the religious atmosphere in your home growing up how you came to Christ and how you came to the doctrines of Sovereign Grace Which is a two -part question

01:07:01

I Was brought up in a Christian home. I was in fact, I just found a document

01:07:08

My wife and I were cleaning out a garage and I found this old document that I was baptized at a

01:07:13

Presbyterian Church at six months old. I never knew that and I tell all my friends

01:07:18

I was born in Calvinist But uh, just to keep in mind most most Presbyterians who are baptized don't know about it, either

01:07:29

And I was brought up in a Christian home. I was going to receive the first Baptist Church And actually that's when

01:07:35

I was I was baptized there at about 11 years old But um, I went through college and I did the same things a lot of young Christians do they get

01:07:45

You know that they interface with the wrong kind of people and they they they really aren't living a

01:07:50

Christian life It took a while and I was questioned my own salvation my gosh

01:07:56

When would they actually say how I lived I don't think of a statement, but it wasn't till Right after college that I started actually taking serious scriptures and learning and studying and it was because of it

01:08:12

Jehovah's Witnesses came to my door in the late 80s and I knew what

01:08:18

I believed I couldn't answer the questions. I couldn't answer why Jesus was called firstborn or at the beginning of creation

01:08:24

Or be gotten I didn't know anything about that, but I didn't know what

01:08:29

I believed I knew he was God I did not know how to defend myself which bothered me, of course, so from there after I am

01:08:36

I really took seriously not only the biblical text on these particular issues, but also in my own personal life and then from there just it was just I knew what

01:08:50

I wanted to do and I Got my master's at Columbia in apologetics and then

01:08:56

Later, I got my doctorate from Northwest University of Theology And I've been doing ministry by the grace of God full -time ever since then

01:09:05

Well, I have a very dear friend who went to Columbia pastor Ed Moore North Shore Baptist Church in Bayside, Queens is a

01:09:13

Calvinist Baptist pastor there and has been a very close friend of mine for a long time

01:09:19

I don't know if you went there at the same time you know, I Interested. I think it's the same as I recall he wrote a

01:09:27

Someone texted someone emailed me this article really an article in John 17 3 and I think it was from him

01:09:34

Hmm, that was really I remember his last name morning went to Columbia. Just an awesome article. It's on 17 3

01:09:40

Wow Well, I will let him know that maybe it is him It'd be great to have you both hook up now when you

01:09:49

You know became you entered into the field of apologetics Were you already a believer in the doctrines of grace or was this something that came out later?

01:09:59

No That that actually You know as we always say no one no one's converted as the

01:10:07

Calvinist I don't think there is no, actually in my studies when

01:10:14

I started studying languages and It This is after I started apologetic when

01:10:20

I started looking at these things and I'm actually I think it was a book by R .C

01:10:26

Sproul chosen by God And also I became friends years ago with James White and I was on an athletic history

01:10:38

Back then and I know we went we went through Arizona and I invited him and his kids to go there

01:10:44

But after talking with him because we used to work out at his house actually when I was in when I'd be in town I think he had a little gym there.

01:10:51

We would just train and you know, talk doctrine And we would talk about these things.

01:10:56

It was very interesting to me and I saw the so much clarity in the doctrines of grace starting from you know, the basic fundamental premise the deadness of man and After that, it was just I wanted to be

01:11:13

Accurate and true to Scripture and it wasn't a difficult conversion process of thinking on that I know some people just for years they go through Difficulties trying to grapple the fact that you know, not all going to be saved or that God Actually has an elect people or all these things

01:11:32

But so it wasn't but I wasn't educated as an Armenian So like I wasn't a

01:11:37

Calvary Chapel guy Was educated as Armenian when the Calvinism is wrong of the devil and all these things so really

01:11:45

I didn't have a presupposition starting for you know, so it wasn't a difficult process and Really?

01:11:52

It just changed everything about my evangelism in that whole process of learning so much about the doctrines of grace

01:11:58

It changed my view of how I look at a man how I proclaim the gospel It's almost as though I got born again again

01:12:07

That's what most people say when they Came to understand the doctrines of grace because as I've said before in this program

01:12:17

I was a Roman Catholic I started to attend regularly a a

01:12:25

Church that was a Reformed Baptist Church, although I did not know anything about John Calvin or theology but When I first started to get some kind of an understanding of what they were teaching in regard to predestination

01:12:41

I was very hostile against it and Eventually after being

01:12:46

Handed a book a booklet by Chapel library published by Chapel library a

01:12:52

George Whitfield letter to John Wesley an election I read that and I initially my reaction was this is true, but I hate this.

01:13:01

This is horrible. But then within about I would say about a month's time or so I just came to fall in love with the teaching of God's sovereign grace and it was almost like being born again again

01:13:15

I Guess process of learning this, you know,

01:13:23

I think with a lot of people They're out. They're almost hyper Calvinist because they they still don't on they embrace it

01:13:30

They enjoy it they biblical clarity, but they still because they haven't been adequately

01:13:36

Taught, you know accurately they are actually hyper Calvinist. It takes them a while to understand

01:13:43

Wait a second. It's not I was kind of wrong at these points, you know, but um as Misrepresented by so many thinking that Calvinism teaches hyper

01:13:53

Calvinism and man doesn't have any will man They're just kind of robotic that's what the the opposers of Calvinism tend to think but When you first embrace these doctrines, sometimes you fall into that you think that you know that God takes everything away

01:14:11

And he just kind of you know, of course as you and all these things until you accurately understand doctrines of grace

01:14:18

Now if my memory serves me, right you were a champion arm wrestler, weren't you?

01:14:25

I Know I wish it was I was on a group of the power.

01:14:31

Oh, that's right. That's what it was the power team In the 90s and We were actually we were the largest evangelical

01:14:41

Crusade because we used to see the you know, we would do the altar calls, you know, we would do the Charles Finney altar call

01:14:54

It gave me by the grace of God it gave me a lot of experience interfacing with so many different kinds of churches with charismatic churches with faith with you know

01:15:04

Methodist with conservative churches and It just gave me so much Experience that I can talk about, you know, what

01:15:12

I find in some of these churches, you know Look, we did on Osteen search not Joel, but John his dad, you know, and we did his church

01:15:21

You know 10 ,000 people at night for five nights, you know, Joel Osteen was like,

01:15:27

I think he was like the Assistant or the youth pastor. I forgot what he was used to drive us around, you know, real goofy smile

01:15:37

Never know me that he would take over his dad And I remember when

01:15:43

John Osteen had handed it all all of the power team guys got these little booklets

01:15:48

And the head of the power team kept kicking me under the table pleading with me not to say anything because these books were so bad

01:16:00

You know, we did John Hagee's And I was glad that I was it, you know in that sense but uh, it took me around the world and and we did proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ and I didn't know much about altar calls

01:16:18

I just thought that was the thing to do. I didn't know any no, I didn't know what decision is I didn't heard about that term or you don't tell much later well, you know something

01:16:28

I May have been in the audience at one of your events

01:16:34

But it actually would have been in the late 80s I don't know if you were in the group in the late 80s, but I was at the time

01:16:40

I was at the time dating my very first Christian girlfriend and She was a member of Jerry Falwell's Church and she was a teacher at Jerry Falwell's Elementary School.

01:16:55

She was a graduate of Liberty Baptist University and I would just visiting her there in Lynchburg, Virginia and they had the power team there

01:17:03

So, I don't know if you were in there in the late 80s, but that's about when I would have been there

01:17:09

No, my friends were I just got on After that That's when we were getting very large meaning we were getting

01:17:20

We were doing some of the largest churches in the world We're you know doing Coliseums and all these things and in fact

01:17:26

I'm still friends with a couple of guys from the late 80s Bill Henderson and a few other guys Got a title

01:17:33

Barry Hanley, but yeah, that's when you know, we were that's funny

01:17:39

Did you get a baseball bat signed by any of the guys for a poster? No, I don't remember that and and To be perfectly honest,

01:17:47

I remember since I was from a reformed Baptist Church We never did anything like that We never had events like that.

01:17:56

And to me it was The atmosphere was a little bit carnival ish

01:18:08

Right Formula what you know, we would do We do something

01:18:18

But the good thing about that we can't we could mention anything in a Christian context but we could talk about peer pressure and drug drugs and And all these issues that you are going through and then we do a teaser

01:18:33

We do some seats of strength and then we say hey you want to see more you want to see the whole team? We're gonna do this

01:18:39

Come out tonight at 7 o 'clock. It's so -and -so. It's sure Again most of churches we did were

01:18:45

Baptist church We would invite all these kids and they they just want to see someone put their head through a sheet of ice

01:18:56

When all these kids from the youth from high school middle school even elementary their moms and dads

01:19:04

When they would come they would see the feet in a more spectacular Fashion but they would also hear the gospel because someone would always preach, you know

01:19:13

Give a testimony but after someone would always and we were very limited in our last in our in our presentation you know keep it to just gospel death or resurrection the

01:19:22

Word of Christ and so Even though they did these altar calls at the end. They did still proclaim the gospel

01:19:29

To thousands and thousands that would come at these crusades Yeah, well the last time

01:19:35

I can recall having my head put through eight feet of ice was when I was under church discipline in the dead of winter

01:19:46

Well, we have a very important conference coming up the

01:19:51

Christian Warfare as we were discussing with Dr. William Downing before you came on and once again, this is going to be held at the

01:19:58

Christ Bible Church in Dublin, California And their website is Christ Bible Church dot o -r -g

01:20:05

Christ Bible Church dot o -r -g and before I forget I wanted to thank a member of the

01:20:12

Christ Bible Church there in Dublin, California Who created a really wonderful graphic that we have posted on Facebook and that we've been emailing around?

01:20:25

He designed this Without my knowledge and I was very pleasantly surprised to see

01:20:33

This graphic created by Peter Sarkis. I hope I'm pronouncing his name correctly, but thank you

01:20:39

Peter for doing such a wonderful job with this a beautiful graphic, but this is a very important subject because the world surrounding us is becoming more overtly

01:20:54

In enmity with God whereas, you know and obviously for centuries

01:21:02

The majority of the world has always been I mean even since the the dawn of time but it's becoming more overt and perhaps more politically powerful at least in the

01:21:16

United States than Than it has before and of course that in some ways has more of a positive side that we as Christians overlook

01:21:26

Because our enemy is more easily seen Whereas, you know in a different type of atmosphere

01:21:32

The enemy is all around us in the pews next to us and we might not even really notice it but if you if you could comment on the danger of purely looking and focusing on The more overt wickedness in the world where we may

01:21:52

Have totally escaped us our own sin in the sins in the church Yeah, I think deal with demonic warfare sometimes

01:22:05

We either downplay it or we overemphasize it for instance Charismatics Behind every single tree and rock my computer that in my car

01:22:18

They blame every sin on demonic warfare. Whereas many too many conservatives will just discount

01:22:26

Well that you know, that was that was the first century. We don't have any of that today.

01:22:31

Mm -hmm. So, you know, they're just Going around me that way as though there's no demonic warfare

01:22:39

So we have to look at the biblical balance and you know when we look at demonic warfare We we have to understand it's not merely these demons coming at you doing something or tempting us as you mentioned

01:22:51

They could be sitting next to our pews in the form of bad doctrine. That's spiritual warfare bad doctrine false prophets

01:23:00

That's the form of spiritual warfare to be sure I think false teachings are Satan mightiest tool against Christians And Paul says, you know, that's our work.

01:23:14

There's not the things you can actually see but the Saints driving these forces Ephesians chapter 2

01:23:20

It says how we used to live and I like Paul's letters because he always reminds us where we were when we were pagans

01:23:27

When we were atheists when we didn't have when we weren't saved we didn't have a view of God He always reminds us of how bad we were so we could appreciate grace that much more

01:23:39

Like in second or first Corinthians 6 9 and 10. He gives a list of sins. He says as you were

01:23:44

Well in Ephesians 2 he talks about, you know formally when you walked according to the purpose of the air the spirit who's now

01:23:52

Enter Gunter's participle from energy Working inside the sons of disobedience or where we get our word energized

01:24:02

Energy. Oh, they're they're energizing the sons of disobedience these demonic worth these demonic forces so we have to understand that spiritual warfare is in all kinds of different shapes and sizes and and forms but They can be right next to us they could we can work with them and it all comes down to just Anything that controversy our faith the controversy scripture the controversy grace alone

01:24:32

I've always met said this I think You know, they're the greatest tool that can use against the

01:24:37

Christian are false teachings and false religions hmm We're gonna go to our final break right now

01:24:44

And if you'd like to join us on the air of the question for Edward Delcourt, our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

01:24:51

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com We do have a couple of people anxiously waiting to have their questions asked and answered

01:24:58

By you and if you'd like to join them with a question of your own It's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

01:25:06

Please give us your first name city and state and country of residence if you live outside the USA don't go away

01:25:11

We're gonna be right back after these messages with Edward Delcourt and more of our discussion on the Christian warfare

01:25:21

Chris Arnzen here and I can't wait to head down to Atlanta, Georgia, and here's my friend. Dr. James White to tell you why

01:25:27

Hi, I'm James White of Alpha and Omega ministries I hope you join me at the g3 conference hosted by Pastor Josh Bison praise mill

01:25:35

Baptist Church at the Georgia International Convention Center in Atlanta January 19th to the 21st in celebration of the 500th anniversary of the

01:25:45

Protestant Reformation I'll be joined by Paul Washer Steve Lawson da Carson Votie Balcom Conrad and Bayway Phil Johnson Rosaria Butterfield Todd Friel and a host of other speakers who are dedicated the pillars of What g3 stands for?

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Gospel grace and glory for more details. Go to g3 conference .com.

01:26:07

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Linbrook Baptist org. That's Linbrook Baptist org. Welcome back. This is Chris Arns And if you just tuned us in for the last 90 minutes

01:31:02

We have been discussing the Christian warfare Our second guest who is currently on the air until 6 p .m.

01:31:09

Eastern Time is dr Edward Delcourt the founder of the Department of Christian Defense If you want more information about that organization go to Christian defense org

01:31:21

Christian defense dot o -r -g and We do have a listener in Mastic Beach, Long Island Who is asking a follow -up question from our first hour

01:31:35

He is saying Is it a logical conclusion that the consequence of?

01:31:42

Evidentialism is giving the enemy the ammunition they need to fight back

01:31:48

Now we haven't established completely whether dr. Delcourt is a presuppositional list, but if you could comment on that But in short, we don't

01:32:02

We don't omit all evidence, but we show logically that the only worldview that actually is logical and Tenable is a biblical worldview.

01:32:14

So any evidence points to scripture points to the teachings of the of the scripture whereas Presuppositionalism in and of itself.

01:32:28

We don't Underestimate the power of the gospel. We don't underestimate our

01:32:33

Christian faith and on essential issues here, so I'm not sure if it It doesn't give the enemy any ground because our job is to preach the gospel

01:32:45

And the gospel has the power of God for salvation and evidence could never lead anyone to Abraham made that point when he says even if someone raises from the dead, they're still not gonna believe but rather the power

01:33:02

Yes. Yeah, even though I really love and consider Him a modern -day hero

01:33:09

Dr. R. C. Sproul. He is at least when he co -authored a book on evidentialism and also

01:33:17

Critiquing presuppositional ism. He seemed to have that view and it strikes me as Interesting that those who are reformed would take an evidentialist position

01:33:28

Because it almost seems to have an Arminian Underpinning if you follow me that you can convince someone of The gospel you can convince them to accept it if you show them enough evidence if you are articulate enough and If you have enough understanding of science and other things

01:33:53

In this world that you if you point them to the right information and so on they will certainly if they have an a right frame of mind and they are a lot thinking logically they will come to the

01:34:07

The truth, but obviously all men are dead in their trespasses and sins until they're regenerate, right?

01:34:13

Right now it seems the how I see evidentialism. It seems to imply that the evidence

01:34:21

Has more authority than the biblical than the biblical text because they start with the evidence and argue to the

01:34:30

Bible rather than starting from the Bible and Arguing out of the Bible to the evidence

01:34:37

Yes, and of course There's as you already said, there's nothing wrong with using evidence.

01:34:43

In fact, our mutual friend. Dr. James R White does that every time he's in a debate? But if you if you not that he's using evidentialist apologetics, he is a presuppositionalist

01:34:55

But what I mean is when he is trying to dispel a falsehood And bring truth to light he is providing evidence.

01:35:05

He's providing historical evidence. He's providing biblical evidence He's providing what the evidence of what the original

01:35:12

Greek and Hebrew of the scriptures mean and so on Right, right, and I just you know,

01:35:18

I think it comes down to an issue of authority my authority For salvation would be the

01:35:24

Bible would be the gospel That's more authoritative than any evidence because evidence would never convince

01:35:31

Someone who is dead in their sin and bondage to the devil In which Jesus says they can't who do to my no ability to hear

01:35:40

John 8 43 And Paul says they have no ability to please

01:35:45

God or submit to him They're not even able to and no amount of evidence is going to make

01:35:52

Paul Word there some kind of you know vacuous Saying that he was just exploring his own opinion or something.

01:35:59

Mm -hmm. Now when we are grappling with our loved ones and acquaintances

01:36:07

Over the gospel and they are bringing up objection after objection, which is far better than when they are totally disinterested and Smile and nod and put up with us.

01:36:23

I'd rather have somebody grapple with us but if you take an evidentialist position on On apologetics, aren't you more prone to get caught up in rabbit trails and let people

01:36:38

Redirect you away from the gospel because they'll be bringing up things that in a earthly sense

01:36:44

You cannot prove like they'll say will prove to me that the Bible is really God's Word and things like that Right, right, which really

01:36:52

I don't I don't have to prove, you know a transcendent being I don't have to my job is

01:36:59

Not proving God Because now we're going to his ground We're going to his world and when they try to drag us into that kind of dialogue where I'll just Stand on scripture as as the authoritative power in and of itself of God for salvation so they might get frustrated and But I know where the power of salvation

01:37:23

Lies and it's not in the evidence evidence only point to the scriptures not the other way around We do have a listener who seems to have some familiarity with your background

01:37:37

BB in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Says that I understand that dr.

01:37:44

Del core has an expertise in the area of oneness Pentecostalism, do you think that?

01:37:53

Evangelicals are far too accepting these days of those who deny the Trinity and look at it as a secondary or tertiary matter of importance

01:38:04

And the answer is absolutely which is And he probably asked that because he is very familiar with the

01:38:13

Trinity and he sees the difference But not all Christians See the difference not all

01:38:18

Christians think there are a difference I spoke at a church too long ago where the pastor

01:38:24

Says he just doesn't see it as being different He sees the Trinity and one of theology is basically believe the same thing because they both believe there's one

01:38:33

God So it tells me he doesn't understand what one of theology teaches nor does he understand what the

01:38:40

Trinity teaches? The only reason you would not see different The only reason you would see them as compatible or Secondary differences is if you don't understand the very try you nature of God in other words either

01:38:56

God is Unitarian a one -person God or he is try you a One God revealed in three persons.

01:39:03

You can't have both, you know And I'm sure they'd be offended if I asked if their wife was was half amphibious

01:39:13

You know, it doesn't really make a difference if she's amphibious or she's human or but really it

01:39:19

Put to them, but that's just it. You know, we're talking an onto about an ontological difference

01:39:25

He's either Unitarian like the Jews Islam and one of Pentecostals believe and Jehovah's Witnesses Or he's trying to as the thought by the historic church as communicated in the most important creeds of the

01:39:40

Christian Church and Ecumenical councils they were all and in fact

01:39:46

BB I Intend to have dr. Del Corps back on the program for a full two -hour edition of iron sharpens iron to discuss oneness

01:39:57

Pentecostalism and the Trinity so We will notify you about that when that occurs and here's a word of warning never

01:40:08

Accuse one of the power team's wife of being part amphibian. It's very dangerous

01:40:16

But well, would you say that that that kind that question

01:40:23

Actually involves something that I asked dr. Downing in the first hour That as far as the spiritual warfare that we are involved in as Christians There is a lot of pressure on us to be overly ecumenical because we are looking at those things that are more overtly evil in this world as something to conquer and We are willing to throw doctrine and theology under the bus very often to link arms

01:40:54

With Roman Catholics and Mormons and others because they agree with us on Social and moral issues, but this is a very slippery slope, isn't it?

01:41:03

You know, it really is the course I can talk about Roman Catholic. I live in the West Coast. It's harder for you

01:41:13

But you're absolutely correct They they want to unite themselves Mainly because I just think there's a huge lack of understanding particularly of what

01:41:24

Rome teaches when a theology teaches and you know We that's one of the things we have to do as Christians even dealing with spiritual warfare like at first Peter 5 9

01:41:34

It says resist the double and be firm in your faith Resist the double how be firm in your faith if we're not firm on our faith.

01:41:41

We're gonna lock arm doctrinally theologically with these with these groups who flat -out reject the sufficiency of the cross dealing with Rome that flat -out reject how

01:41:54

God Revealed himself to mankind through the Holy Page of Scripture as asserted by one of theology

01:41:59

Peter says or rather John says when he talks about Christ being the the one true

01:42:06

God in first John 5 20 this is the Leviticus the true

01:42:12

God and an eternal life verse right after it says stay away from idols

01:42:19

So it links together If you don't have a true

01:42:24

God if you have a different God a different gospel, then you shouldn't Any other view is idolatry any other view is really as Paul calls it in Ephesians 2 12 atheistic

01:42:39

In terms of Jehovah's Witnesses and one of Pentecostal even Roman Catholicism We call them many do

01:42:46

I do certainly atheistic rather than just non -christian religion Why do I call me if they believe in a god?

01:42:53

Why would I call one of Pentecostal Jehovah's Witnesses Islam Roman Catholic atheistic? Well, I do because Paul says if you don't have the

01:43:01

God of biblical revelation Paul defines them as etioi as without God in Ephesians 2 to 12

01:43:08

That's the probably the best description I can give these groups because they're without the true God any other

01:43:14

God doesn't exist So they they're without the true God they're a joy as Paul calls them without God So we have to be careful who we join hands with and who we associate with in that set

01:43:29

Of course, I'm not talking about you know, there's a disaster in your neighborhood. We all come together We're not talking about those kind of issues, but we just have to see them as the object of evangelism all these groups

01:43:41

Yes, we do They are a mission field They are not our brothers.

01:43:48

They are somebody that we should be evangelizing. But having said that do you think that there are?

01:43:54

many occasions Where we can cooperate with people who are not

01:44:00

Christian that have a similar cause But they we have to just be cautious on how we do this

01:44:07

Like for instance every time we vote for somebody who's not a Christian we are in some sense Cooperating with a non -christian for a

01:44:15

Positive goal that we are trying to achieve in this country and of course other people listening in other parts of the world do the same thing

01:44:23

Yeah, which which really was yeah, which was my point, you know when we're looking at a common good a good cause

01:44:32

Disaster we do come together There's no problem in us as humans coming together to help those who are in need and so on so forth

01:44:39

But as you said, we have to be cautious. We have to realize we're not coming together with Christians So we have to be very certain as to what things we come together on You know, and we just have to use wisdom in this case and do it in scripture instructs

01:44:57

Yeah, in fact, I can remember hearing from our mutual friend again James White when he was involved very actively in a pro -life group

01:45:07

He left it one of the reasons was because he was forbidden to evangelize the

01:45:13

Roman Catholics that were protesting along with him against the the

01:45:19

Abortion clinics and so on and you know surrounded by people Praying over rosary beads and so on.

01:45:26

He couldn't just just stand there and say nothing but right that's where we have to really draw the line is we can't think that as Evil and as atrocious and disgusting and satanic as Abortion is the

01:45:44

Holocaust of unborn children. We can't throw out the gospel in our efforts to bring about moral purity in our civilization

01:45:56

Right because they're the ones that are there are In a spiritual sense as evil as the one murdering the baby

01:46:04

They're rejecting the only means of peace and life which is the Jesus Christ the biblical revelation

01:46:10

Mm -hmm. And by the way, you made the the comment about me living in an area where there are far more

01:46:17

Roman Catholics I actually organized debates with dr.

01:46:23

White and Roman Catholic opponents for over a decade and Hopefully we'll be reviving debates

01:46:29

Like that here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania and perhaps we could get you out sometime to debate a oneness

01:46:35

Pentecostal College professor or pastor or something? That'd be great to have you out here.

01:46:41

Yeah We have Let's see

01:46:48

Christopher in Suffolk County, Long Island, New York who says you've been speaking against Ecumenism a bit on the show today, but don't you think that there is an important and Biblical form of ecumenism that we should not shun where we do work together with brothers in Christ That disagree with us even on important issues, but affirm the gospel along with us

01:47:16

Absolutely, that was my point absolutely brothers in Christ and I think that's the that's the phrase there brothers in Christ I do not see

01:47:25

Rome as my brother in Christ, nor do I see one is Pentecostal as my brother in Christ Now I have brothers in Christ in which

01:47:33

I disagree on peripheral doctrine and we have to separate peripheral secondary doctrine to be central theology and essential theology

01:47:43

Really does consist on the person's finished work of Christ which Rome is guilty of rejecting that though It's when it's

01:47:50

Pentecostal Either or Because one is Pentecostal some of them believe in works

01:47:57

Baptism regenerate and then some don't but they still reject the nature of God whereas Rome flat -out rejects the sufficiency of the cross so yes,

01:48:06

I agree with the Question With a questionnaire that yes, we should work with our brothers in Christ, but we have to make sure they're brothers in Christ Amen, we did that by comparing

01:48:19

Essential theology What do you think is the most prevalent area or even several prevalent areas in the modern?

01:48:27

evangelical church where we are Seriously lacking in the area of spiritual warfare being equipped for spiritual warfare that is bringing about the decline of Biblical soundness in the 21st century pretty rapidly

01:48:48

Actually you you said it you said the answer actually in your question That's the client that's the reason for the decline and how why churches are getting so or they are at a point of so much impotence doctrinally, it's because they don't have a

01:49:06

Biblical integrity in terms of growing and knowledge and faith in the true God as Peter instructs us to keep growing

01:49:14

You know keep growing in the faith as Peter also instructs us only 2nd

01:49:20

Peter 3 16 or 18, but also 1st Peter 3 15, you know to always defend our faith and Provide a positive reason for our

01:49:29

Christian faith. Look this was to all believers First Peter and Jude was not written to you know, some particular church.

01:49:38

It was written to the Universal Church This is what we're supposed to do and I would say leaders

01:49:43

Christian leaders and pastors a mantle really falls in their hand They're not doing what they're supposed to be doing a lot too many of them they're not putting doctrine as the premier attraction of their church and You know it what they're doing in in constant distinction.

01:50:00

What they're doing is they're making the visitors and they're providing these these

01:50:05

User -friendly consumer friendly messages and the best pastor these days for folks is

01:50:13

Kind of a cruise ship director type not a pastor who's powerful in his teaching of the

01:50:20

Word of God That's how you come become strong by the Word of God. That's how you become strong by listening to an exegetical presentation

01:50:27

Of not only gospel, but a biblical doctor Look when Paul says the gospel is the power of God for a salvation in verse 16 of Romans chapter 1

01:50:36

Remember what he says in verse 15 He says I am eager to preach the gospel to you and we have to ask

01:50:45

Ourselves, why is he eager to preach the gospel to Christians in Rome? Well, because they got to learn it better, you know, they kind of lose the gospel

01:50:55

They got to learn what it is much more effectively and accurately You ask ten Christians You know to define a basic definition of the

01:51:04

Trinity you might get ten different answers. Most Christians are functionally oneness They're functionally

01:51:10

Catholic in their view of salvation. Are they not? Functionally Catholic in their in their view of how

01:51:17

God saved So we need to be taught adequately. That's how we grow That's how we're stronger and that what really put him on the armor when you look at these six pieces

01:51:26

It really does have to do with these things Yeah Do you think that a lot of it comes from?

01:51:34

again going back to an Arminian mindset and by the way, I think that a lot of reformed people and reformed churches unconsciously fall back on Arminian ideology when

01:51:49

They rightly want to draw a great number of people to Christ they wrongly think drawing them to join your church is

01:52:02

Accomplishing that and sometimes in the quest to do that They are changing the message to make it more appealing.

01:52:09

Could that be a big part of what you're saying is You know Chris that you hit the right in the head

01:52:16

The paradigm of the church today is geared toward the visitor or the non -believer

01:52:23

So if the paradigm is gator catered to the non -believer all your messages are going to be catered to the non -believer

01:52:31

We're at the Christians there. Whatever church it is are being suffocated They're being starved because they're not getting doctrine.

01:52:39

They're getting fun messages and fun songs Do even that trickles to the that extends to the praise and worship music?

01:52:47

They're just fun song lacking doctrine, but that's the problem in the first century church

01:52:52

Who is the church for what was the function of the church? It was for Believers it was not for Non -believers because non -believers don't have a capacity to understand doctrine

01:53:04

We preach the gospel to non -believers and when if and when they get saved we take them to the church get educated

01:53:12

So they can do the very same thing that was done to them proclaim Accurately the gospel of Jesus Christ But if you don't know how to do it stay home because you'll probably do more damage than good if you don't know what you're talking

01:53:25

About when you're communicating the gospel and the holiness of God Amen, and if you could give our listeners some practical counsel advice

01:53:36

We've been speaking a lot about the church at large being equipped for Christian warfare, but what about the individual how?

01:53:45

Some practical advice about the everyday steps in life That help further equip us to battle the enemy

01:53:54

Every day we go to work every day that we Do anything recreationally every time that we watch anything on TV or read anything in newspaper and magazines or on the

01:54:05

Internet? There there should be some practical guidelines. I'm sure Yes, I would say number one

01:54:14

You gotta understand that this world is is on our dwelling place So Paul says in Romans 8 18

01:54:21

He says I don't even it's not even worth comparing these the trials and trouble that I'm going through It's not even worth comparing between this and the glory

01:54:33

That's going to be revealed to us So we have to understand our dwelling place John says don't love the world

01:54:40

Paul says set your mind on the things above not on the thing on the earth

01:54:45

So number one, we have to realize we're only here for a short time. It's not even everything's a lease here, right?

01:54:51

We don't know anything because it's not our dwelling place. We're going to be with the Lord very soon So we have to understand that and secondly we have to understand the instructions that are that are that are given to us in the

01:55:04

Scriptures like Ephesians 6. Demonic warfare is real. Spiritual warfare is real. Paul devotes almost a chapter to spiritual warfare

01:55:12

And when he says put on that armor, he uses the term enduo. It means like someone put it means as Though someone's putting on a garment

01:55:22

Putting on that's how it's used in the gospels, enduo We need to put the the armor on and get familiar with those pieces of warfare

01:55:29

Not only the sword of the spirit be familiar with the Word of God, but what's the helmet of salvation?

01:55:37

Understanding that we are firm in our salvation because so many Christians get discouraged even within their own sin

01:55:44

That now this sin is going to separate them from the love of God. That's a

01:55:50

Roman Catholic teaching Romans 8 and I'd like to call this 8 1 and 39 theological bookend because they're beautiful bookends of security 8 1 says there is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus The Greek term now is used.

01:56:08

So damaging is that verse that the New World Translation of the Watchtower Removed the word now.

01:56:15

You don't have it and then verse 39 will say Nothing is able to separate you from the love of God If you understand that nothing is able to separate the love of God You're going to be less discouraged when you fall you less discouraged you don't

01:56:30

Seize the opportunity to preach the gospel you fell in a particular area or you might be struggling with a particular sin

01:56:38

But Paul said nothing will be able to separate you from the love of God through Christ Jesus our

01:56:44

Lord That means not even your lack of performance Nothing in all creation can separate you from the love of God So we have to understand our position in Christ as a specified person

01:56:56

Feel for the day of redemption and look at the biblical instructions in Ephesians 6 also in 1st

01:57:02

Peter 5 6 & 9 when Peter says Humble yourself before the mighty hand of God that he may exalt the proper time

01:57:10

How do we do that verse 7 casting all your anxiety on him? It's a participle of Means meaning the means of humbling ourselves is to cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you

01:57:23

And then Peter says but be sober be sober in the spirit Then it says the devil prowls around like a roaring lion

01:57:31

Zaytun he's always seeking someone to devour the present participle there

01:57:36

He's always seeking and this is to us meaning he's seeking us to devour Peter says but resist him how firm in your faith knowing that the same experiences of suffering are being accomplished by your

01:57:49

Brethren around the world. We have to understand a lot of people are going through the same thing But Peter says resist him be firm in your faith put on that helmet of salvation and that breastplate of Righteousness understand your position in Christ.

01:58:04

So I think if we understand virtual Warfare in terms of the instructions given to us how to handle it

01:58:10

And then if we understand our position in Christ because look Chris if you really thought that every spelling would result or every spiritual attack would result in forfeiting your justification

01:58:21

How are you gonna live? You're gonna wake up every day discouraged because you don't understand what justification is

01:58:27

You don't understand that Ephesians or in Romans 8 30 It says all those that are justified are glorified that Paul put that in a past tense

01:58:36

Meaning he's so certain that you as a justified believer will be glorified.

01:58:41

He puts it in a past tense as If you're already glorified, even though we're not Amen and we're out of time and for those of you who would like more information about the

01:58:53

Conference that dr. Del core is speaking at along with a number of other people the

01:58:58

Christ Bible Church 2016 Bible Conference on the Christian warfare go to Christ Bible Church org

01:59:05

Christ Bible Church org To go to dr. Del core his website go to Christian defense org

01:59:11

Christian defense org. I look forward to having you back Dr. Del core if you could stay on the line after we go off the air so I could book you for our interview on one is

01:59:20

Pentecostal ism and I want everybody Listening to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater