What about Gary DeMar? | w/ Dr. Sam Frost

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Well, hello and welcome to The Apologetic Dog. Thank you for tuning in. If you're new to The Apologetic Dog, this is an apologetics ministry.

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The verse that I try to ground my vision for what I'd like to accomplish is in 1

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Timothy 6 .20, where Paul is telling Timothy, hey, guard the deposit that's been entrusted to you, guard this gospel of grace, and do this by warring against pagan philosophy and exposing the false knowledge that contradicts itself.

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And so we do this by standing on the word of God. Jesus said your word is truth and that the word of God will sanctify the disciples.

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And so that's what we seek to do is just to stand on the word of God and to destroy any knowledge that tries to rival the word of God and its truth.

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And so I just wanna encourage you to please like and subscribe The Apologetic Dog. It really helps us circulate our content to a broader audience.

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And so, like I said, thank you so much for joining. Today, I'm going to be introducing the topic once again on eschatology.

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I had a dear friend reach out to me and express his concerns about Gary DeMar. A lot of,

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I actually really appreciate Gary DeMar for so many things. I grew up that premillennial dispensational mindset and was very comfortable in my eschatology and trying to shoot down any opposing thought.

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And Gary DeMar, I believe he wrote the book Last Day's Madness or something like that. And listening to some of his lectures really started making me think about what is this generation referring to in Jesus's Olivet Discourse.

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And so Gary DeMar is a scholar. He spent a lot of his work in the realm of eschatology.

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But my friend that reached out to me has many concerns that we're gonna get into today about some of the dangers of what he is getting into and sounds almost identical as a full hyper -preterist.

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And so that is gonna be the main focus today. And my friend is none other than Dr. Sam Frost.

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How are you doing today? I'm fine, I had a good day. The weather is, we went from 20 below zero to now we're in the 30s.

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Yeah, well, man, that's really cold. Have y 'all got much snow here recently or anything like that?

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It's now starting to melt, but yeah, we've been in snow for the last week. Yeah, well, hey,

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I like those glasses. I don't think I've seen you in those on the past times that you've been in. These are new reader glasses.

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Some more specs. I broke the other one. I was trying to get Dr. Frost earlier to consider wearing contact lenses, but he said he's not interested in any of that.

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Well, Dr. Frost, tell us a little bit about yourself. Now, you've been on the Apologetic Dog before, but where can people find you?

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Where is your heart and your passion at in some of the work that you've been doing lately? Well, most of my stuff is on the, you can flash that up or whatever, vigil .blog,

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V -I -G -I -L .blog. So most of my just spurious writings,

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I usually take 30, 40 minutes to write something and then crank it out there.

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I don't proofread it or anything. I just write it and then shoot it out. It's dangerous when

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I don't proofread the things that I write, Dr. Frost. Yeah, my biography and all of that stuff is on there.

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Yeah, we'll definitely post that website below. I encourage any of our viewers, go check out some of the books that Dr.

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Frost has written. What are some of the main books that you've written that you're most proud of?

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Well, the latest is Daniel Unplugged, which is a commentary

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I spent a year working through, translating and working through the material of Daniel, which is a

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C on its own, the material on Daniel is. So that book is doing well.

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It was reviewed by a few scholars. They enjoyed the challenging of it. It's a different take on a few passages.

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And then the cross and, or not the cross, the Parousia of the

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Son of Man. I think I'm going to revise that one. You can still get it in its first edition, but been getting, again, a lot of feedback on that that I should seek out a publisher on that.

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I published that through Lulu Publishing, which is an indie publisher. Cool. I hope to write a book one day.

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A couple of publishing houses that are interested in that one. Like Daniel, Daniel was published by a publishing house.

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Yeah, I will post those books in the show notes below so people can go check that out. Now I mentioned a key word earlier.

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A lot of people that watch this probably are already familiar, but I want to touch on it briefly. I mentioned earlier,

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Gary DeMar is starting to say things that sound like a full preterist, a hyper -preterist.

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And what I mean by that is there is this view out there, a type of eschatology that says that Jesus Christ already returned, already came back at 70

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AD, that the living and the dead, the resurrection has already occurred, and that we're living in this new heavens and new earth right now.

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And it's gonna continue on infinitum. Everything that you see is gonna continue on into infinity. And so I think pastorally,

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Dr. Frost, that burdens my heart. How do I counsel people? How do

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I tell people, how do I comfort them in the light of death rather than when they've lost a loved one or they are approaching the last days of their life?

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This is it. I find that so troubling in so many ways.

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And we say hyper -preterism because we think it's totally out of balance.

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They maybe have some key principles that we say, yes, 70 AD was important, the destruction of the temple and many of the events that surround that.

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But we think it's hyper, it takes it to an extreme, the things that the church has always held onto, that's so important in terms of eschatology.

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Jesus is coming back to rule and reign bodily, to set up an eternal kingdom here on earth to restore all things and to judge the living and the dead with this future resurrection.

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Those are so important to hang on to when we start analyzing the orthodox views of eschatology like pre -millennialism, all -millennialism and post -millennialism.

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And then hyper just kind of jumps off the cliff. And so you reached out to me.

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I remember on Facebook, Dr. Frost, you're like, all right, I feel another episode coming on. And I just said, hey, let's do it.

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But you said that to me in light of a post that you said about Gary DeMar. So if you would, tell us a little bit more about the concerns about Gary DeMar, maybe some things that he's done that's had a positive influence in scholarship.

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But I did notice you gave him a D minus. And so when it comes to eschatology, maybe you can tell us a little bit more what you were getting at with that.

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Well, I've been reading Gary since he was publishing newsletters, a biblical worldview newsletters back in the early 90s.

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And I've been reading whatever he writes. I would get a read. And he was with the early on with,

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I was in Bible college and then working at the Bible college in the bookstore and in the distance education program that they had there in Pensacola.

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And I got to meet, I would meet with Jim Jordan, James Jordan, he lived in Niceville. And I was in Pensacola.

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So I'd get to meet and talk with James Jordan. But at the bookstore, Gary was with this

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Gary North who was a Dominion Press and they were publishing out of Tyler, Texas.

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And Ray Sutton, James B. Jordan, David Chilton and Gary DeMar and Dr.

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Gentry, Kenneth Gentry. And so I was getting all of this kind of material as working in the bookstore, just started reading

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Gary and liked what he was saying. It was a lot of it was typically reformed post -millennial stuff that you could read back of the old post -millennialist kind of things.

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But a lot of it hooked me, but his preterism at the time was already catching on with me and being at Bible college.

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Of course, you're exposed to all of these different views. I was raised in the dispensational fourth grade gospel church. So Bible college are exposed.

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And then I had a couple of good mentors that exposed me to quite a bit. So of material, of scholarly material.

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And so, you know, I just always read Gary, respected what he was doing, saw what he was doing. But Gary back then was typical preterist post -millennialist.

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He wasn't saying anything that was, you know, you couldn't find somewhere else in the history of Christianity.

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So there wasn't anything, you know, I'm not post -millennial. I used to. Before we get into some of the big concerns with Gary DeMar, there's a few things that stood out to me that he wrote about and that he talked about in some of his lectures that I like, that started to kind of crack the armor, if you will, of my pre -millennial dispensationalism.

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And I'll allude to one. One of those was, you know, how do we understand this generation in the

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Olivet Discourse? And he kind of grounded that with the previous chapter in Matthew 23, where Jesus is kind of giving this scathing rebuke to the

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Pharisees, referring to them as this generation. And I just thought, contextually, that's a strong case to make.

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And he interpreted Daniel chapter seven, I think it's 13 and 14, about the

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Son of Man. He was just basically showing me how this is connected with the

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Great Commission and the Ascension. And I thought, man, that just, in terms of scope,

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I feel like that's very powerful and it's giving a strong explanation of what's going to happen.

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He's going, you'll have to make sure I'm saying this right, but in that text, he's going to the

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Ancient of Days, right? Oh, sure, yeah. And he's not going from the Ancient of Days.

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And I noticed my dispensational eschatology kind of had it backwards. And so,

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I thought that was really compelling. And I enjoyed, actually, he debated,

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I think it was Michael Brown on the Gospel Truth. I wanna encourage people to actually go watch that debate.

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There are things that I like about Michael Brown, but with anybody, I want people to exercise discernment and caution.

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But that was just a good exchange to get a premillennial perspective with a postmillennial, and we're gonna get into how partial

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Preterist Gary DeMar is, sounding at least. But that was just a good debate. So, I've been following him, like you were saying, just from a distance, as a learner.

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And I appreciated a lot of his work. And so, we always wanna give credit and honor where it's due. But you told me, or really in this post on Facebook, you're just like, all of the hyper -Preterists are rejoicing at what

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Gary DeMar is saying. So, what were some of the things that just sounds like a hyper -Preterist with what he's been saying?

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Well, the first and foremost was, he was asked on one of his podcasts of what happens to you when you die, and he says, we get a new body in heaven.

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Just that right there. Can you go more in depth on why that's so important?

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Well, that implies that if we get a new body in heaven, then there's no resurrection in the last day, as that is by liberal,

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I read mostly liberal scholars. That's understood as a resurrection in the last day, which is a typical kind of Judaism.

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But if I die and get my body then, then there's no future resurrection. It's an individual, it's purely individual.

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So, there is no general, that's a denial of the general resurrection of the dead. And secondly, getting a body in heaven, a body that never died, is not a resurrected body.

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You're not, it's just one spirit migrating into another body. So, it's a transmigration of a spirit into another wholly other body that is not even mine.

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It's, I guess, it's some meat rack that's waiting up there in heaven for me to slip on into when

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I die. And that's all kinds of problems. So, when I heard that, that to me was, that's

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Ed Stephens and that's Paul Preterist. That point about, really, that's not a resurrected body, just receiving a body in heaven one day in the, was that something that led you out of the hyper -Preterist movement?

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I know we've done shows before and you've talked about a myriad of things that, even logically speaking, it's not a coherent worldview to hold, but that route that Gary DeMar is going down, was that a sticking point ever for you when you were in the hyper -Preterist movement?

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Yeah, we got around it. I mean, I first adopted that view. That's Ed Stephens' view and a few others.

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Michael Beeler, I think, is another full Preterist, but it's a minority view among full Preterists. The majority view among full

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Preterists is Don Preston's view, which he got from Max King, which we call the corporate body view.

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The corporate body view actually stays faithful to the syntax of, for example, 1

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Corinthians 15. The body that is sown is the body that is raised.

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So, and again, all Greek scholars, liberal, conservative, that are looking at the syntax, and I've been reading

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Greek for 30, going on 30 years now, it's very clear what

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Paul's saying there. And that's where we came up with the expression, the theologians came up with the expression, self -same body.

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That's the word, why they use that, because the body that goes in is the body that goes out, which is the definition of what resurrection is.

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Your spirit's not being raised from the dead, your soul's not being raised from the dead. Your body that is dead is being made alive again, anastasis, it's standing again.

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That's what resurrection meant. And again, you could go through Charles Worth and Collins and Wright and all of these,

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Vestermann, and they all say the same thing. They know what it is. They don't, a lot of liberal scholars don't believe it, but they will tell you that's what the text says.

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And so the idea of dying and getting a body in heaven just goes against everything.

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This was even around with the Manichaean view in the institutes of the Christian religion.

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Calvin takes a shotgun at that view and goes off and states.

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So Preston's view is called the corporate body view, and that has nothing to do with getting new bodies or your body or physical body, or it doesn't have anything to do with any of that at all.

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And so the view that I heard Damar state that we get new bodies in heaven, that's a minority view, and it's not been a very popular view.

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It's been floated around, like I said, in Calvin's day. The Gnostics held to some sort of thing like that.

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Now, when I say Gnostic, there's Gnostics, there were several views of Gnosticism.

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Sometimes they fought with each other. You got in trouble last time you said hyper -preterism was a form of Gnosticism. It's neo -Gnosticism because it's, again, it's ditching this meat sack and slipping into a better meat sack.

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And how you call that resurrection, it's not. Can Gary and I somehow try to say the body that we're in now that dies and decomposes, could that be the one that we receive in heaven?

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Well, how would that be? Because I can go, I mean, there's bones and we can dig up mummies and...

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Yeah, yeah, no, that's true. Yeah, my sister and my dad are still in the casket.

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So that's where they are. So has he clarified if you receive a new body immediately when you go into heaven, or is there still some type of time frame where you're waiting?

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Or I've heard of a weird view called soul sleep. In the preterist scheme, now, even the soul sleep guys, they're better at exegesis than this, because at least they affirm the resurrection of the dead.

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I would actually go along with them more than I would this nonsense. So basically you have, because of the fulfillment in 70

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AD, Christians now, here's the benefit we get, unlike Abraham, Daniel, or Isaiah.

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When they died, they went to the spooky world, the nether world, you know, they went to this chamber of ghosts or whatever.

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And now in 70 AD, because Jesus knocked down the temple, all of these spirits got released and got bodies in heaven.

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So the benefit to us living in the age to come, or preterist view, is that when we die, we don't have to go to the spooky cave of Hades.

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We go immediately to heaven and get our body. And then that's it, that's the goal.

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It's not heaven on earth. It's not new heavens and new earth. It's that's the goal is die, go to heaven.

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That's pretty much the goal. Because life on this earth, and here's another thing

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Gary's, I heard him in this last podcast flirting around with, he doesn't come out on a definite thing and he has not yet.

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Gary has stated that he is not a full preterist, but he's done podcasts with Kim Burgess, who is a full preterist.

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He calls himself a consistent preterist. It's very easy to say, I'm not a full preterist,

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I'm a consistent preterist. You've got me mixed up with those full preterists. These are all word games to me.

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I've been doing this for too long. You've been down that road before. I know all the players.

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I know all the arguments, like the back of my hand. You're not gonna slip one by me. Drink and breathe this stuff on a daily basis.

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And I've been doing that since 1998, on a daily basis.

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Dr. Frost, I was born in 92. I don't know how that makes you feel. And so, just, so I hear these trigger words, these little buzzwords, and I think, oh, that's full preterism.

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That's, you know. Yeah, so the first big concern that we're talking about is he says there's no general resurrection, which the church at large has said, this is a part of that blessed hope that we're looking forward to, to receive resurrected bodies fit for eternity.

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And that does not have, and is not no longer cursed by sin, right? I mean, this is one of the, you know, there's a lot of discussion about the nature and the book of Revelation, but I believe it's in Revelation, is it 21?

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Maybe 20 or 21 that talks about there's a future hope where there's gonna be no more crying, no more weeping.

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Everything that's gonna be accursed is gonna be done away with. It's gonna be restored. Something that I would interpret

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Romans eight to be talking about all of creation is groaning for this restoration for the sons of God, essentially, sons of glory.

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And so he is saying no future general resurrection.

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He's just saying when you're ushered into heaven, you have kind of this new body, and you're saying there's no way that that could be a resurrection, right?

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Going from here to there and receiving a new body. Well, by definition, it isn't, yeah. Because the resurrection is somebody getting,

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Jesus defines it very clearly when those who hear the voice of God will come out of their tombs, each some under perdition, some under eternal life.

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And Matthew or John 5, 28, he says, when all who are in their tombs shall hear the voice of the son of God's son.

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So that's the just and the unjust. Hmm. So do the unjust get new bodies too?

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And this is the thing that they avoid. We've been around, I've been around, I've tried to every which way, but loose with all of this stuff.

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And it just doesn't work when you've got everything crammed into 70 AD as your terminus, which they do.

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And so they kind of shoot themselves in the foot as I did for over a decade. I shot myself in the foot trying to work out a view or a worldview.

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I tried to work all that out. Yeah. Because I had had my biblical theology and I had had my systematics theology.

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And again, I had wonderful mentors. So being a full preterist, I was trying to work all that out in a catalog of what the,

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I got to turn that off. You're a popular guy. Yeah. Oh no, this doesn't stop.

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So I had to work all that out in terms of building a belt and shell or a worldview.

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And in doing so, I wanted to go through all of the typical categories that would create a worldview.

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And that was here that I began to see that we were jettisoning everything that was definitional of what

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Christianity was historically. We're just getting away. We're just, we're redefining

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Christianity itself. Jesus, no longer a human being. That's Don Preston and a great mentor,

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Bill Evans. He's no longer incarnate. This goes against the text, by the way. There's a reason why a statement of faith says, do you believe in the visible bodily return of the

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Lord? Why do they put the word bodily there? Because he's continual, he's incarnate. Because the Greek text states that he who has come in the flesh is in the flesh.

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So in 1 John 4, it says those who denied that Jesus has come, perfect tense, and is.

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The King James Version is actually a good translation. It states, who is come in the flesh.

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And it's bringing out the present aspect of a perfect tense there. He who has been raised from the dead, that's a perfect tense.

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If you have been raised and is still raised from the dead. So to deny that, forget your eschatology.

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That's just Christology. You're done at that point, as far as I'm concerned.

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Dr. Frost, I'm gonna have to remember that point. I'm teaching through 1 John on Wednesday nights here at 12 .5 Church. So I'm definitely gonna key in to how there are certain aspects to our eschatology that directly relate to our

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Christology. Who Christ is, and like you're saying, the incarnation, the hypostatic union. And then this definitely touches on our blessed hope.

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And hyper -preterism says, oh, it's a realized hope. It's a realized eschatology.

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And so it's just directly backwards. And so with going back to Gary DeMar, very problematic, his view of denying a general resurrection.

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And something else that we've been talking about, and I was like, Dr. Frost, I really want you to spend some time unpacking this.

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But he's interpreting the phrase, the end of the age, to necessarily mean the last days of this old covenant.

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Is that right? Is that kind of the concern that you're referring to? That pretty much is staple full preterist teaching, whether you're on the

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Ed Stevens side of things, or you're on the Don Preston side of things. There they find a point of unity.

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And there are a handful of preterists that say that as well, not a lot.

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Even Mr. Kenneth Gentry doesn't do that. He understands end of the age, the way that the church has always read it from all four quarters of the earth.

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We didn't all conspire together and say, hey, let's define this term this way.

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It's what the phrasing means. We are all reading the scriptures for 1900 years, and that's what the term, that's from, again, what all nations, languages, and tongues, and tribes have all come to the conclusion, yeah, that's what that means.

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And that wasn't 70 AD. So they invent this, like a dispensationalist, they invent this

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Jewish age, and it ended, the Jewish age ended May 9th, 70

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AD. And that's where it gets wacky, as far as I'm concerned.

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Dr. Frost, that's interesting, because full preterists, to not use the other name of hyper, one of their claims to fame is they are directly opposed to dispensational premillennialism, kind of like every point and turn.

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And last time, we talked about how they make us, they make a few same moves that the dispensationalists do, like in the

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Olivet Discourse, it's kind of an all or nothing approach. They just put it all in the past, is where the dispensationalist kind of puts it all in the future.

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But then they also do this next move, is they have this hard divide between Israel and the church, right?

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And so I follow a few full preterists, just to kind of see how their thoughts are developing, and it seems like there's such a wide variety of full preterists, it's hard to find strong unity.

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I mean, they all line up that Jesus already returned at 70 AD bodily, or, well, even then, they are split on was it a physical bodily return, and what that means and entails, or just a spiritual one.

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But it was in the past, regardless. And so I remember back when, and I love

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John MacArthur, like I think he's a faithful expositor, Christian, I still benefit from his ministry to this very day, his

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New Testament commentaries. But he was the first one to bring up the term replacement theology, and it's kind of a pejorative against covenant theology, saying, oh, y 'all are just replacing

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Israel with the church, to where covenant theologians say, we don't see it like that, we think the church is

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Israel in some way, you know what I mean? And so I just thought that was interesting, because it's a battle for terminology at that point, and how you do see elements of national

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Israel versus the new man that Ephesians 2 starts to bring out with no more dividing wall of hostility.

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And so it's super interesting, and in my opinion, I think there is some genuine overlap of a type of dispensationalism that Paul used that word twice in Ephesians 1, and then one in Ephesians 3, with obviously

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God relating to man covenantally. So I do think there is a way to understand some of those things.

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But I noticed that full preterists have to make kind of the same move, that you have to say, every time you read the word

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Israel, essentially, this has to be referring to an ethnic nation, distinct categorically than the church, church age.

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Am I following that right? Well, I mean, for Paul, Israel, not all Israel is

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Israel, but he is referring to Katasaka according to the flesh.

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And the reading the prophets, which were woefully inept in,

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Isaiah very clearly states that the nations will be engrafted and drawn in and become Israel.

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Now, what he means by Israel is God's covenant people, Israel will be engrafted in, that nations will be engrafted into their, theirs are the promises, theirs are the covenants.

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God made the covenant with Abraham, a real human being who's still alive, as far as I'm concerned, although he's not raised from the dead, but his promise is still outstanding because according to Romans 4 .13,

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God promised Abraham the world. And he said that Romans 14, wherever you set your foot, that's yours.

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Look up at the stars, all of this is yours. I'm giving all of this to you. But Abraham understood, I don't want

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Canaan as it now is, it's pagan, worshiping false gods, and there's pagan and sinfulness and everything else.

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I want a better country. Can you make this a better country? And God, Abraham understood that God will make it a better country.

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He'll make it a sin free, death free. That's what Abraham wanted. That's what he longed for.

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Who wants a piece of real estate that's full of people sacrificing their children to Molech?

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You can have it. That land is polluted. Leviticus says that, the land is polluted.

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So Israel is to come into this land that God has given to them, and not only the land, but wherever they set their foot is now theirs.

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So if they follow these external laws that God has given to them, then the blessings of that, what does that look like?

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Well, it looks like pretty much material blessings. Grass is greener, the trees are better, the fruit is so much, you don't know what to do with all of it.

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There's no war, the enemies are at peace, and the whole nine yards is going on. It looks like Eden.

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Yeah. All you gotta do, all you have to do is obey, and I'll restore creation underneath your feet, and you will have all your enemies in subjection and in dominion over them.

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All you gotta do, though, Jeremiah, is obey. That's it.

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So tying this back to Gary DeMar, so going back to what you said earlier.

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He didn't obey either. So Gary DeMar is saying the end of the age is the last days of this

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Jewish old covenant, right? And he's saying, I'm not a full preterist, but, and you said on one podcast, he's saying being a consistent preterist or something like that.

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And - Well, Kim Burgess, who he's talking to, and that's who Gary is in league with. So Gary's not a, look, when

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Jason Bradfield and I, back in 2008, 2009, were coming up with this ongoing fulfillment.

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So we were marrying post -millennialism with full preterism. And we were trying to take these two things and marry them together.

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And that's what we were trying to do. So we had an ongoing fulfillment. We had the idea that of, we would use,

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I would use John Murray's of redemption accomplished and applied. And so 70 AD, everything is accomplished.

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I had that book in seminary. And then, so since everything is fulfilled in 80, 70, now it's being applied and manifested and realized.

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And so what would that look like a million years from now? Well, it looked like the blessings of the covenant that God has made with his people to restore all things.

33:20

We're going to make earth a happy place. That's, and then you die, but it's not really death because physical death doesn't have, is not part of the curse.

33:31

See, you got to get around that with spiritual death. But most of the people on the globe in a million years or 10 ,000 years, however long, you know, whatever, will be

33:42

Christian anyway, because our religion is going to be the only one that outlasts all of them. Like the Mormons, we would reason, the

33:50

Mormons is an eschatology religion. It can't last another thousand years. It's built on a failed predictions.

33:58

Jehovah's Witnesses are built on failed predictions. The Islam, it's the same thing.

34:04

It's built on these fault. But if you throw all that out and that's all fulfilled in 70

34:09

AD, well, then we're going to be the only religion left standing. That's how we were reasoning.

34:16

And so the promises of Isaiah 65, which we saw is very much still very much this worldly.

34:24

We thought that's how we're bringing about the betterment of mankind.

34:30

The Christian church, through what Jesus Christ did and accomplished in 70 AD, we're bringing about the utopian vision of mankind through the church.

34:41

And eventually, so you can see where post -millennialism just jumps up and down on that stuff.

34:47

Right, very true. You know, I'm like, yeah, this is great. And then the end of tribulation. So we're going to get rid of tribulation, sin, death, and evil, spiritual death, not physical death, but physical death didn't have anything to do with the curse anyway, right?

35:00

So you got to redefine all of this stuff in order to get away with it. But that's what they're doing on their podcast.

35:07

It's very familiar language. And Jason and I were doing this a long time ago, but it doesn't work.

35:15

So with that, I want to look at a passage out of the Olivet Discourse.

35:20

And tell me if you know what Gary DeMar would say on this. Do you care if I read it real fast?

35:28

The whole chapter? No, just the opening kind of questions because Jesus brings up the end of the age or it's brought up.

35:36

And I want to get your thoughts on it. And I wanted to know if you knew what Gary DeMar would say about this.

35:43

So this begins by saying, Jesus left the temple and was going away when his disciples came to the point to him, the buildings of the temple, but he answered them, you see all of these, do you not?

35:54

Truly I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.

36:01

So I can imagine they were just shocked. Verse three, as he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately saying, tell us when will these things be and what will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age?

36:16

And so that was a question. And so maybe we can pause there. But he does bring up the end is not yet.

36:25

How does Gary DeMar interpret the end of the age here in light of the rest of the

36:31

Olivet discourse? Basically conflate all of that together. When will these things, so that's the

36:37

Greek is anaphoric. So we'll refer back to what he just said about one stone not left upon another.

36:42

So when will these things, when will these buildings come tumbling down? When will these things, so it's very specific.

36:49

And what will be the simeon of your presence?

36:54

I translate that presence not coming. It's parousia, parousia is there.

37:02

And then the end of the age. And so what the full preface do is conflate that all into one question.

37:14

So when these things will be, the fall of the temple buildings, is the parousia, is the end of the age.

37:27

It's all the same thing. Now, most scholars do not do that. Right, so that's what

37:33

I was wanting to do here just a little bit. So Gary DeMar, like the hyper -preterist, like the dispensationalist, is saying this is one event all crammed together.

37:45

So are we saying that there's really, what, two questions being asked here, and Jesus is kind of, what do you think?

37:54

It is one question. That's from the standpoint of the disciples, they just heard a catastrophic pronouncement by Jesus.

38:11

How are you gonna knock all this down, the city of Jerusalem? That's gonna require an act of God.

38:19

Is this Solomon Gomorrah, kind of, God's gonna blow the city up? That's like me walking into a football stadium and saying this stadium will not be here.

38:32

You'd look at me and think, well, you and what bulldozer? Because that would require an implosion of explosions.

38:38

You need a demolition crew of thousands of people to bring this structure down.

38:45

It's a massive thing. So they're hearing that. So naturally they're thinking, okay, if that's the case, that's the end of the age.

38:54

So they're asking, it's Jesus that comes back and says, these things will be, you will see

39:01

Jerusalem fall, you will see famine, earthquake, and plagues, but the end is not yet. The end of the age is not yet.

39:08

Don't confuse the destruction of Jerusalem with what God is going to do. Don't confuse that with the end of the age.

39:15

Instead, when you see the abomination of desolation or in Luke's version, when you see the legions, the armies starting to, you start hearing that rumor of the war.

39:25

Don't wait for my glory to appear because it's not going to. Instead, hightail it out of there.

39:32

Flee, run like a scared kitten. Get out of the city. That's the exact opposite of what we find with the

39:41

Maccabean period who stayed in the city, bared swords, fought, and were given deliverance.

39:48

They defeated the Seleucid army and they were given independence and delivered. Happy Hanukkah.

39:55

Well, we just were in that season. So Festival of Lights. Jesus grew up with Festival of Lights or Hanukkah.

40:02

They knew this. It's in John 10, 22. This was their history. They knew who Antiochus Epiphanes was.

40:08

They knew the Maccabeans. They knew all of that. The Maccabean zealot, that stuff was in the air.

40:15

The South will rise again. Everybody knows in the South who Robert E. Lee is, even though that was nearly 200 years ago, but that were 100 and some years ago.

40:24

But we all know who Robert E. Lee was and Ulysses S. Grant. It's part of our history. It's who we are. Well, they knew who

40:31

Antiochus was. They knew the Maccabeans. They knew all of that. Jesus was referring to Daniel, who

40:36

I think is referring to that period of time, second century BC. Again, I'm kind of hanging out with the scholars on that one.

40:45

But anyway, that's another point. But anyway, Jesus states to them, these things will take place, but the end, that's the controlling.

40:55

One of the first things that comes out of his mouth, the end is not yet. Don't conflate, don't mistake the two for the same thing, because they're not.

41:05

Yeah, now, I don't want to derail us with this, but I notice in Ken Gentry's book,

41:12

How We Missed the Second Coming, tell me what you think about this. And I think it's charitable if we don't all quite see this the same way, but we're getting to the same conclusion.

41:22

We might take a few different pathways to get there, but I believe Gentry kind of does see two questions being asked, and Jesus is kind of.

41:31

It's possible. And remind me, I think he refers to a transitional text in verse 36, because he's just saying, you're talking about this generation surrounding the events at the destruction of the temple.

41:44

But that day, right, in verse 36, he's saying he's talking about something else. So it's like, I think how he set it up was there's two questions being asked, and so Jesus is answering two different questions.

41:54

One is imminent, and something is future. And I like what you're saying, because you're kind of bringing some clarity.

42:02

He's like, don't get these things confused. Yeah, he defines the term in 24, eight, when he says there, all these things are beginnings of woes.

42:27

So, pata de tante arcae fodidon. So all these things. Now, when you say all these things, again, these, that's a very definite, all, that's a closed set.

42:40

All these things, not all those things, but all these things. Well, what are all these things?

42:47

Well, death, famine, persecution, hatred, wars, nation upon nation, kingdom upon kingdom, persecution, earthquakes, a tribulation.

42:59

They'll throw you into tribulation, it says. Some of you will be thrown into tribulation in verse nine.

43:04

Then you will be handed over into tribulation. Gleipsis, there's the word there. So, okay, famine, earthquake, plague, war.

43:15

So what was Jerusalem, what was 66 to 70 AD? Well, it was a war, but the end is not yet.

43:24

See? Yeah, let me go into that transitional. These are only beginning contractions. And it's a play on terms because you have arche, which is beginning, and you have telos, which is end.

43:35

So there's a clear play on terms. So as long as the arche of woes is going on, or contractions and these kinds of things are going on, what are those?

43:45

Well, we were just told famines, earthquakes, persecutions, hatreds. As long as that's going on, the end is not yet because the end brings these things to an end.

43:56

Yeah. That's the Jewish expectation is that famines, wars, earthquakes, plagues, hatred, all of that stuff will end.

44:04

That's what he said in Matthew 13. So all these things will continue. So did the disciples this generation, did they see all these things?

44:13

And the answer is absolutely. Was it the end? No. It's not, how do

44:19

I know this? Because all these things still continue. They still happen. So this is where Gentry, I'm pretty sure

44:25

I'm representing him properly. I don't know if you can see my screen, but verse 34, Jesus is saying, truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

44:36

So there, this is kind of pointing to 70 AD, a lot of these wars, tribulations, everything.

44:41

And then 36, but concerning that day, you'll have to help me on the

44:47

Greek there because Gentry makes a big deal of, but concerning is a big transitional text that Matthew has used all throughout his gospel, especially back in 22, dealing with the

44:59

Sadducees. Perry day, do I get it? Do you know what the transitional phrase is?

45:05

Yeah, yeah, Perry day. I got that memory going on. It's been a while since I looked at his book, but he's actually talking about that day.

45:12

Very common. Something future. He's saying no one knows the hour, right? There is something mysterious about the eschaton.

45:21

And you've mentioned Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses. They're built around kind of nailing these things down and no one claims more to have these things nailed down than the hyper -preterist.

45:32

The very way you can find out if you're a cold or not is that they got the end of the world pegged on a calendar.

45:39

With all the charts and - Jesus explicitly says, do not go after people that are saying the end is near, the end is near.

45:47

Don't go after them. He says that in Luke. He's very clear. Don't go after these kooks. But yet, preterism is telling us that the apostles were the kooks.

46:00

The end is near, the end is near. They weren't doing that.

46:05

Not like, and I think it's anachronistic. I think it's historically anachronistic to read back into the first century the image of a guy standing on a street corner with a sign that says the end is near.

46:21

That is not, that's not what they were doing. That's not what the apostles were doing.

46:26

But yet they were saying the end of all things has come upon us. What's going on here?

46:32

What are they doing? Well, maybe because of dispensationalism that has influenced preterism.

46:39

We're just understanding that we're not coming at it. I'm not saying that general, I'm saying the preterist here is not coming at it correctly.

46:48

The scholars, they've got it figured out. That's why I read more of them, mostly liberal.

46:56

But you know, these are the guys that write your Greek translations and stuff.

47:01

So these are the guys that I trust them more than someone with some sort of dogmatic, you know, narrow minded view that they've got to push on the text.

47:11

That's why full preterism, hyper preterism will never go mainstream because most scholars just are not going to.

47:19

I've talked to many of them across the seas and here in America, just through correspondence and stuff.

47:25

And they just laugh at it. They said, there's no way. Dr. Frost, it seems like hyper preterism has a way of dying out on its own.

47:33

And sure, there's spikes. But over time, people have these existential crisis because what's the point?

47:41

I mean, it kind of falls into even an atheistic mindset with the world continuing as is.

47:49

And so, you know, I do think we need to give good, robust answers to questions like, well, what is the end of the age even talking about?

47:58

And earlier, you and I were talking about how this is pretty unique. It's at least first mentioned in Matthew's gospel, right?

48:06

Jesus Christ. He's the only one that uses it. With the parable of the wheat and the tares.

48:13

And so, and to some credit of people that say, well, doesn't the end of the age have to be tethered with this great white throne judgment or something?

48:24

And we're saying, yes, that's why it's so important that you don't shoehorn everything back into the past.

48:29

But the end of the age is mentioned there. We just looked at that passage in the Olivet Discourse. And this is one that really hits close to home with me with the

48:38

Great Commission. I wanted to read this briefly and tell you just a little bit of how

48:43

I've been having to deal with certain preachers in my local area that are becoming full preterists, more unashamedly a full preterist and claiming to be

48:57

Southern Baptist. And I just pray that that stops at some point in the near future because it just breaks my heart because that goes against historically what

49:08

Southern Baptists have taught. I'll just say that there's no such thing as a Southern Baptist full preterist.

49:13

That's an impossibility. Yeah, it's a married bachelor, right, Dr. Frost? But this is one of the texts that they go to after an already established definition, dogmatic definition of what the end of the age is.

49:28

Like Gary DeMar said, it's the last days of the old covenant Jewish end of the age.

49:36

And so Jesus is saying here in the Olivet Discourse or in the Great Commission, go therefore make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the

49:44

Father, Son, Holy Spirit. This is the moment when all authority in heaven on earth has been given to him. And then he says, teaching them to observe all that I've commanded you and behold,

49:53

I am with you always to the end of the age. And so that's that phrase coming out of the last thing.

50:00

And I can just tell you personally, Dr. Frost, that in my growth and walk with Christ, I have found so much comfort in this verse, knowing that Jesus is always with me.

50:11

And I do think that is in virtue of the indwelling Holy Spirit and the ontological trinity and things like that that he mentions earlier or it mentions in John's gospel.

50:21

But there's a piece that we see in the Old Testament, even into the New Testament throughout the book of Acts that God says that I am with you.

50:29

He's with his people. He told Gideon that he'll be with them when he goes into war. So this is just something that I've always liked.

50:35

Man, this is kind of a part of that blessed hope. He's with me now also until he restores all things.

50:41

And then you got these hyper -preterists saying, well, this is in reference to 70

50:47

AD. And Dr. Frost, this individual that's SBC oxymoron,

50:53

SBC full preterist, is saying that the Great Commission is fulfilled.

50:59

What he said is this text, he would not go to this text to say, this is why we should evangelize.

51:05

Now I realize a lot of hyper -preterists just go ahead and teach universalism, which we talked about one of the last times about that's more consistent.

51:15

But I'll tell you this, Dr. Frost, tell me if this sounds strange. He'll go to Revelation. I don't remember if it's 14 or Revelation 22, where it talks about some type of healing of the nations outside of the kingdom.

51:28

And that is more of his justification for evangelizing.

51:35

He's not going to the Great Commission here because in his mind, oh, that's already done and fulfilled. And Romans chapter one talks about, you have to help me on the verse reference, but oh, the

51:46

Great Commission is already done. The gospels went out to the whole world or something like that.

51:52

No, yeah, it did. Yeah, and this is what my response is.

51:57

It went to the Gentile world and it started out in Judea, Samaria, but it's still going out to the uttermost parts of the world.

52:07

And so I get offended. I take it personal when this wonderful Great Commission that the church should hold near and dear to evangelize the world is somehow already fulfilled at 70

52:21

AD. And I just, I don't know, Dr. Frost, maybe I just get frustrated with that. No, you're right.

52:27

And please don't think any more about it because you're going to end up, your brain will explode because you are, you're trying to wrap your mind as how do they do that?

52:36

So they, so I guess the pre 70 AD missionaries, evangelists, and there were numerous, it wasn't just the 12 apostles, people were spreading the gospel everywhere.

52:48

But when they came to the Roman line, where say in upper Gaul, which is now modern day

52:55

France, but since that wasn't Roman occupied territory, they had to stop there because Jesus only sent them to the known world at that time.

53:04

This is getting ridiculous. I'm being sarcastic. Right. So they understood what uttermost parts of the world.

53:11

They knew that the world was far more bigger than the Roman world. They knew this. We have this in the

53:17

Greek. They knew of the Chinese. They knew of the Parthenians. They knew of the lower, way lower than Egypt and Ethiopia, Cush, and beyond Libya.

53:25

There were people there along the coastlands. They all knew that. They knew that people there, they were trading with them. Rome knew that they were there.

53:31

It's wherever you, it's the uttermost parts of the earth. The expression meant wherever you find earth and you still have earth and you're still walking in that direction and it's still earth.

53:42

That's the uttermost parts of the earth. Keep going until you run out of earth.

53:50

Yeah. That's kind of a praising method. Keep going until you run out of dirt and you start hitting the oceans.

53:58

And so that - In fact, I'm in, in fact, I'm in right now. These are human beings. They're human beings. They understood this.

54:05

If you read Strabo, written first, late first century or early first century, Strabo's geography.

54:12

He's talking about the Chinese and he's talking about the Indians and the whole Eastern, they know these guys.

54:18

They know these people. They were trading with them. Yeah. To chime in real quick,

54:24

I preached a sermon on deep discipleship and we see Jesus giving the command to make disciples and then he says of all nations, and please correct me if I'm wrong here, but nations has a lot of times been translated

54:40

Gentiles. So this is a commissioning to go to the uttermost parts of the

54:46

Gentile world preaching this gospel of grace, right? And so in a kind of a succinct way, and I do want to get into some other passages, but how are we to understand this phrase to the end of the age?

54:59

If it's not talking about the old covenant Israel last days, you know, summed up in 7

55:06

AD, then how are we supposed to understand this? Well, he states here, the phrasing is stated here in such a way that the word always is not there.

55:18

It's basically, ami pasas ta himeras, all the days,

55:26

I am with you all the days. That's the Greek. And then until or even until the end of the age.

55:36

So what that's telling me is Jesus is with them before the end of the age.

55:43

Jesus will be with them to the end of the age, all the days before the end of the age and to the end of the age,

55:50

Jesus will be with them. So that's uncontestable.

55:57

So if he's with them before the end of the age, how?

56:05

How is he with them? Jesus has been ascended into heaven. How he with, what do you mean you're with me all the days until the end of the age?

56:18

How would they answer that? Would they try to appeal to the Holy Spirit? Well, that would be the correct answer by the spirit because Jesus is in heaven at the right hand of the father,

56:28

Colossians 3, 1, where he is at the right hand of the father. This was their message. Jesus is at the right hand of the father.

56:36

Well, how is he absent from body present with the Lord as long as we're at home? We're away from the

56:41

Lord. Oh, wait a minute. Jesus said he's with us always until the end of the age.

56:46

Paul, what do you mean we're away from the Lord? But if you understand that the Lord is incarnate Jesus of Nazareth in heaven, who has been glorified and raised at the right hand of God, then you who have not seen

56:57

Jesus yet, you still love him. 1 Peter 1, verse 10. How is it that I've, and I've never seen

57:03

Jesus. I don't know about you. I've never eaten fish with him. I've never shook his hand or looked at his beard.

57:09

I don't know. I've never met Jesus in my life. From one angle, in the enlightenment of the knowledge of the son of God given to me as a deposit and guarantee by the

57:20

Holy Spirit, I'm convinced that Jesus is at the right hand of God, that God raised him from the dead and seated him in heavenly places at the right hand of the father.

57:30

I've never seen anyone seated at the right hand in heaven at the right. I get that knowledge from scripture, but I still don't believe the knowledge when

57:40

I even read the scripture. Something else has to happen to me to convince me, convict me, this is the truth.

57:48

What you're reading right here, that's the truth of the reality of the world. And I'm convinced of it.

57:54

But having said that, I guess in a way from the Holy Spirit, Jesus has come to dwell with me and I with him, but yet in a very strong sense,

58:06

I've never seen Jesus in my life. Not the way the disciples saw him, not certainly the way that Paul saw him 18 months after Jesus ascended, 18 months later,

58:18

Paul's hearing a conversation. He said, I am Jesus of Nazareth, who you thought was dead.

58:26

I don't know, I'm alive. I'm in heaven. I'm the one that's Psalm 110 talked about.

58:32

And Paul, I'm gonna convince you of that. And when I do, your brain is going to explode because you've been reading the

58:39

Hebrew Tanakh all wrong. And see, that phrasing, all the days until the end of the age, the closest phrasing we can find of that is at the end of Daniel chapter 12, verse 13.

58:57

It's the same wording. It's an interesting wording because it's the only, Matthew is the only one that uses the phrase end of the age.

59:07

Paul picks it up and then in Hebrews, it's picked up. But Matthew is the only one in the gospels that uses, we can't even find the phrase end of the age in any of the extra biblical material.

59:19

That's not, it's not found. It's a very unique phrase, but most scholars think that probably Daniel 12, 13 is where that's coming from because there

59:27

Daniel's told that he's going to die. You know, he's gonna be at his end, he's gonna die. And then he'll rest.

59:33

And then it says that you will rise or be raised and receive your inheritance.

59:41

So resurrection, and then it uses the phrase suntelion hemeron, at the end of the days or end of the age.

59:51

This is the phrasing, except Matthew uses end of the age, aion, and here

59:56

Daniel's using end of the days. So what happens at the end of the days? Well, Daniel will be raised from the dead.

01:00:04

Well, what's resurrection of the dead? Well, go to Daniel 12, two, and it'll tell you what resurrection of the dead.

01:00:10

Many who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to everlasting perdition, the resurrection of the just and the unjust.

01:00:18

Well, when is that gonna happen? At the end singular of the days, plural, or another way of putting it in Greek, this is the wonderful thing about Greek is you can say the same thing multiple ways.

01:00:32

Another way of putting it in Greek is last day, end of the days, or last day, same thing.

01:00:41

So when is the last day? Is that phrase found anywhere? Well, it's found in John six.

01:00:47

And in John six, it's unquestionable what Jesus is saying there. All who are given to me,

01:00:54

I will raise up in the last day. Whosoever cometh to me, whosoever believeth in me, all that are drawn to me, all that are given to me of the

01:01:03

Father, I will raise them up in the last day. When is the last day? Well, that's Daniel chapter 12, 13.

01:01:10

This is Jewish. This is Jewish thought. This is how they, it's the last day. It's not the last day of the end of your life.

01:01:18

It's not the last day of the old covenant. A Jew would walk around and talk, well, it's the last days of the old covenant.

01:01:24

That's the very thing that they were wanting to, they saw was going on. If you talked about the old covenant ending, they'd stone you.

01:01:34

So it's John 6, 44. No one could come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up on the last day.

01:01:42

And so - In the last day. In the last day. And then he quotes Isaiah right there, 45.

01:01:49

As it is written in the prophets, and they will all be taught of God. Everyone who has heard and learned from the

01:01:55

Father. Now that's the Holy Spirit, right? That's new covenant stuff, right?

01:02:03

Now, so those of the new covenant who are learning of the Holy Spirit, taught by the

01:02:08

Holy Spirit, those are the ones who will be raised up in the last day. So I asked Michael Miano, do you have the

01:02:15

Holy Spirit? And he said, yeah, you're taught by God, right? You're in the new covenant, new age to come and all of a sudden he goes, yeah.

01:02:21

So when are you going to be raised? Because that promise is made to the new covenant people. And he just looked at me like a deer and caught in the headlights.

01:02:31

And then he said, well, that doesn't apply to me. I said, so the promise of being, the whole point of being taught by the

01:02:38

Holy Spirit, having the Holy Spirit is guarantee the deposit of resurrection.

01:02:46

That's Ephesians. That's Ephesians chapter one. This is standard, Jeremiah, you know this stuff because it's standard 101

01:02:53

Bible theology, whether you're Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Coptic, Protestant, white, liberal, black.

01:03:02

For 1900 years, we've been saying this. And along comes the spreaders that just are saying, ah, it's all wrong.

01:03:09

Nobody knows what they're talking about. And my arrogance, I was arrogant. I look back on those years and I thought, my goodness,

01:03:18

God, you had mercy on me. And my arrogance of trying to think that I'm gonna tell everybody that they're all wrong.

01:03:27

For 1900 years, they're all wrong. Big Sam, big mass of ego, big fat head

01:03:34

Sam. God humbled me, he humbled in a mighty, mighty way.

01:03:45

There's so many things that full predators. I still have a flat head, by the way. No, you're looking good, especially with those new specs.

01:03:54

I was wanting to get your thoughts on this. We've talked about this on the phone and even a little bit in past episodes. But like I said, this is starting to pop up around Jonesboro, Arkansas.

01:04:04

And we start talking about other things like spiritual warfare. Where is Satan in all of this?

01:04:11

And of course, all that, Satan has to already be in the Gehenna, right? Because the great white throne judgment already happened when you start reading

01:04:19

Revelation. Well, yeah, all that's done, right? And so, one of the preachers broke my heart because I remember reaching out to him many months ago, really trying to caution him away from doing this, along with him calling me saying, oh no,

01:04:36

I think I'm a heretic. And I'm like, that's a way to start a conversation. But where he's at now, and I just wanna encourage people to think about, this is where full preterism leads.

01:04:46

Satan is no longer roaming like a rowing line, trying to devour whomever he can.

01:04:52

He's no longer actively blinding unbelievers in their unbelief the way that Paul articulates.

01:04:59

No, all that was before 70 AD. So, what is the point of Ephesians six with the whole body armor of God?

01:05:07

Because that was in a context telling us that - That's funny you just said that because I just clicked, before you said that,

01:05:13

I was searching and I just clicked on that verse. You and I are on the same wavelength. Oh yeah, well,

01:05:19

I'm learning a whole lot from you, Dr. Frost. And this is why I wanna tell you what he said and my initial problem with it.

01:05:26

I mean, for one, what bigger deception, what bigger lie could Satan give to let you think that he's no longer here?

01:05:33

Well, man, that to me already is like, oh man, I'm going to be on high alert.

01:05:40

You know what I mean? Not thinking, oh yeah, he's no longer here because this was the conclusion that this individual said.

01:05:47

Well, we put the body armor of God on, not to war against Satan because that's all done away with, but it's to war against the flesh.

01:05:56

And it's an immediate, now we leap to James chapter one that says, you got this progression that temptation gives birth to sin and sin gives birth to death.

01:06:08

In my, the whole thing is, wait a second, that is not what Paul is talking about in Ephesians six.

01:06:14

He is saying our battle is not against flesh. Now, do we war against our sinful tendencies?

01:06:22

Romans seven, Paul shows us that. People that think you can reach sinless perfection, well, you surpassed

01:06:27

Paul, you know what I mean? But that's what they have to do is because we understand this world has fallen.

01:06:34

And it's interesting because I know the hyper -preterist mantra is don't appeal to your personal experience and give us clear exegesis, right?

01:06:42

But even this gentleman can't get away from the fact that, oh man, we war against sin daily.

01:06:48

So there is a battle, there is a war, right? We can feel it. And I'm like, well, you already broke your standard on appealing to experience there.

01:06:56

But that's my big concern, Dr. Frost, is where hyper -preterism leads to in so many ways, spiritual warfare.

01:07:04

Satan and his minions are no longer warring against the saints, right?

01:07:09

And to me, that totally undoes the point of what Paul is talking about in Ephesians six.

01:07:15

Do you wanna speak more to that? No, you have done a, you're spot on the point because, you know, we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against rulers, against the authorities, against powers of the present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in heavenly places.

01:07:36

Now, classic post -millennialists, they know what to do with that verse. We're waging a cultural war, but we understand that it's not about picket signs.

01:07:47

And these are abortion proponents. There's a spirit, spirits.

01:07:56

There's a malevolent, there's malevolent principalities and forces controlling judges and government officials.

01:08:04

There's powers, and we have authority and a power to fight against those so that we can love our enemies, while at the same time praying for the defeat of these principalities and powers, which will be one day subjugated and destroyed and placed underneath our feet.

01:08:21

So the victory is ours. Now, I don't know about you, but that's a post -millennial battle cry right there, because the victory is ours.

01:08:29

And so we know who we're fighting against. And the weapon that we have is love, love our enemies, serve your enemies, try to talk and dialogue.

01:08:41

Don't point fingers at, you're going to hell. That's not, that doesn't work with flesh in case you haven't noticed.

01:08:49

But what does work on flesh? Love, love works.

01:08:55

Hard to defeat love. It's hard to make an enemy out of somebody of a church that, you know, if one person is saying, oh, the church, they're just, and then another, and I've heard these conversations.

01:09:09

Another pro -choice person would say, yeah, listen, really don't speak about that church right there, because they really helped my family out in a time of need, man.

01:09:16

And I mean, these guys really came to see, you can't argue against that. A picket sign, you know, take your picket sign and go somewhere else.

01:09:26

I don't have, what does Paul tell me to pick a picket sign up? I mean, we're going to protest

01:09:35

Roman Caesar injustice. Caesar Nero, you're the oppressor.

01:09:41

You need to go. You need to go. Yeah, Paul is just not, that's why he says

01:09:49

I submit to the authorities that are in power, God set them up anyway. You know, this world is going to be ours, brothers and sisters, the world's going to be ours.

01:09:58

We're going to inherit it. The meek will inherit all of this. So love one another, love your enemies, bless those that persecute you.

01:10:05

That's the counterculture opposite way of how you protest. You wash feet of a whore, a slut, which is what

01:10:15

Jesus was doing. And he offended the leaders, but he was, this is the kingdom.

01:10:21

This is how you do it. Lay down your life, pick up your cross, die to yourself, die to flesh.

01:10:27

That's how you do it. That's how you do it. And I've found in the last few years of my life, doors have opened that I never ever, ever thought would be open to me because I'm serving.

01:10:40

I'm learning how to serve. I could tear up just thinking about, you know, the -

01:10:46

Hey, that's fine. Jesus wept. The goodness of God in my arrogance, these years of arrogance that I had, and then

01:10:54

God just, you know, humbling and crushing that and saying, you need to learn how to love, my son.

01:11:01

And you need to stop putting yourself first all the time. And that has opened up doors of service.

01:11:09

You don't get paid for it, but I don't, my reward, see my, oh, here's another one.

01:11:15

See, my reward is in heaven. It's, I don't, God takes care.

01:11:20

I've got, hey, I got clothes. I got a roof over my head. I'm good. He provides for all of that.

01:11:27

So what you're getting to, I think you're such, you have such a pastor's, you really do have such a pastor's gifting, a pastor's heart.

01:11:36

I think that's where you're kind of seeing all of this. I'm hanging out more in the academia thing, but you're hanging out more in the heart pastoral.

01:11:45

Hey, I'm seeing how this is affecting people's lives. And your concern is spot on, because things that are destroying our families now, these are principalities and powers.

01:11:56

I need to be in prayer. I need to be in service. I need to be operating gifts. I need to be walking with the

01:12:03

Lord who is with me always until the final defeat at the end of the age, which gives me the guarantee that my labor, can you hear

01:12:12

Paul straining here against all odds? And then at the end in 1

01:12:19

Corinthians 15, he says, your labor is not in vain. It looks like it might be because no one's paying any attention and no one's coming to your church.

01:12:29

And you're not, there's no big revival going on and thousands are just coming. And it looks like just each thing that you're doing is not being seen for what it is and all this bunch of other stuff.

01:12:40

But if it's in the Lord, your labor is not in vain because the victory is yours. It's promised.

01:12:45

You have a vision, you have a hope, you have a guaranteed future. It is your,

01:12:51

I think about this all the time. And so what that does is, is that allows me to serve.

01:12:58

I don't have to worry about tomorrow. Tomorrow is taken care of. All I have to do is serve because victory is ours.

01:13:08

It belongs to us. I'm going to inherit the earth. I'm gonna inherit the cosmos, treasures in heaven forever, new heavens and new earth.

01:13:15

Why am I worried about climate control or climate change? I don't care. I don't worry about this stuff, but I do serve those who do worry about this stuff, who are distraught.

01:13:30

I mean, I'm talking to people that they think the world's gonna end in 12 years if we don't start recycling two liter plastic bottles.

01:13:40

Right. So Dr. Frost, let me kind of recap. I got off on a rant there.

01:13:45

No, that's okay. I love it. Let me, tell me what you think about this because we originally started talking about Gary DeMar.

01:13:53

We have a lot of concerns. Praise God that he does not identify as a full preterist, but the big concern is that he affirms so many things that causes the full preterist to rejoice.

01:14:09

Number one, that, you know, we just got done talking about the end of the age. He says is this end of the old covenant

01:14:17

Jewish age. Those were the last days kind of mentioned there. And, you know, this really causes problems, not only contextually with the all of it discourse, but I think it overflows into practically, you know, how

01:14:33

Jesus meaningfully said that he would be with us even to the end of the age.

01:14:40

Other than just assuming things, I mean, that's why the individual that I've talked with, he says, yeah, that's already done and fulfilled.

01:14:48

That's not our great commission. He just goes to the book of Revelation and obscure texts, in my opinion, to try to make the case that you got the new heaven and new age, but then you see this healing of the nations kind of flowing outside those walls.

01:15:03

And he says, evangelism. And I just thought, wow, it blows my mind how we no longer, you know, in that paradigm can appeal to the great commission to evangelize the nations, right, the

01:15:15

Gentile world. And remind me, the first thing we talked about with Gary DeMar, oh, he denies a general resurrection, right?

01:15:23

And so you made the point that for him just to say that we receive a body in heaven, that's not a resurrection, right?

01:15:30

So those were two big points that we've kind of talked about. Is there anything else that you would want our audience to kind of be aware of?

01:15:39

Now, we love Gary DeMar. Like I said earlier, there are a lot of things that I respect him for, right?

01:15:46

I recommend his books. Take it with a grain of salt, but you know,

01:15:51

I don't agree, no one agrees with every word that I say. I don't agree with every word, I mean,

01:15:57

I don't agree with every word that Calvin says. I believe - I don't agree with anything that Gordon Clark said.

01:16:04

Right, I don't agree with everything Gordon Clark says. There's some things he says that are quite lamentable that I've read and I'm like, oh, that's not good.

01:16:17

So, you know, I'm all for academic and exegetical freedom. I don't think we've uncovered every nugget of exegesis in every verse of every text.

01:16:26

I think it's quite possible that for 1900 years, we've read particular verses incorrectly.

01:16:32

Sure, theoretically, that has been, that is possible. In terms of demonstrating it in history, read church, go through church history.

01:16:47

There's where there have been ethical changes in church history because we've been reading a verse here wrong and it's by grace alone, you know, that's, well, that simple reading of Romans four by a young Martin Luther, that impacted the world.

01:17:04

Oh, big time. And Romans 117, the judge shall live by faith.

01:17:11

Yeah, he wasn't the only one reading it like that. There were others as we researched and see throughout history, there were others doing that.

01:17:19

So Luther didn't invent that. But he, you know, he was, people were saying, you know, we've been reading the

01:17:26

Bible here wrong. That's fine, I have no issues with that. That's not my argument against full preterism is that you're accusing the church of reading the

01:17:33

Bible Bible wrong. In a court of law though, speaking practically, if I've got five witnesses that said that I saw

01:17:45

John shoot Susan and you got one witness that says, oh no,

01:17:52

John was with me. He couldn't have shot Susan. What do you think a court of law is gonna decide?

01:17:59

Are they're going to appeal to the majority? It doesn't prove that John's shot

01:18:05

Susan. The one witness could be correct, but generally not.

01:18:13

So the burden of proof or onus probandi in Latin, so the burden of proof is always towards the weakest.

01:18:21

You have to show the case. Those have been the majority of witness is in the, they don't have to prove or show the work.

01:18:34

They already have. That's why they're sitting in the cat's bird seat, as we like to say in Indiana.

01:18:42

So you did bring up Matthew 13, which is the first time we see the phrase in Matthew.

01:18:51

And that's a critical passage. Let's pull that up. We got another good 10, 15 minutes.

01:18:58

I don't want to take all your time. You've been awesome to message me and say, hey, let's talk about some of these concerning issues with Gary DeMar.

01:19:07

Yeah, usually most cases I'm invited to be on podcasts, but this time I know that I like doing yours and I reached out to you and said, hey, let's do this.

01:19:18

And I appreciate that you responded. Absolutely, I got your back, Dr. Frost. You do?

01:19:28

So we are in the parable of the seeds, is that right? Yeah, 36 is where he begins to explain it.

01:19:37

So we don't have to read the actual parables, 36. Yeah, very simple stuff here.

01:19:45

The one who sows the seed is the son of man. Here you go, this is a no brainer.

01:19:50

The field is the world. Now, a preterist will say, well, that's the Jewish world. Yeah, I don't see the word

01:19:59

Jewish there, but anyway. The field is the world and the good seed are the sons of the, should we say

01:20:07

Jewish kingdom? Anyway, you see how it works. So the good seed is the sons of the kingdom.

01:20:13

The weeds, again, this is a pretty simple, are the sons of the evil one who's no longer around.

01:20:19

Does he still have sons anymore? Anyway, and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age.

01:20:27

Now, if that's 70 AD, this is what happened in 70 AD. The reapers are the angels. And just as the weeds, the sons of the devil, are gathered and burned with fire, that's

01:20:39

Gehenna lake of fire. So it will be at the end of the age. The son of man will send his angels and they will gather out of his kingdom.

01:20:48

Well, wait a minute, what's the kingdom? The field is the world. The kingdom, the world is

01:20:54

God's kingdom. He rules the world. He will gather out of his kingdom, all causes of sin and all law breakers.

01:21:07

The preterist says Jewish law breakers, old covenant law breakers, 70

01:21:13

AD here, all causes of sin because the law is the cause of sin without where there is no law, there is no sin.

01:21:21

And so old covenant law has been done away with and condemnation has now been done away with because the old covenant age and those law breakers in that old covenant age have been plucked out of the kingdom in 70

01:21:35

AD. And they've been thrown into the lake of fire in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

01:21:43

And then it says the righteous will shine. That's a Danielic reference right there. That's Daniel 12, four.

01:21:50

Then the righteous will shine. Yeah, like the sun in the kingdom of their father, he who has ears let him hear.

01:22:02

So I guess after 70 AD, we shined like the sun.

01:22:07

Now that's creation language there, right? That's the language of creation.

01:22:17

We'll shine like the sun in the kingdom of their father. So it says here that the evil or wickedness, though this is very much in close to what we read in the

01:22:25

Dead Sea Scrolls and in much of Judaism, it's this kind of stuff right here, when God is going to show up and make all things right.

01:22:33

I wanna read, let me grab a book real fast. All right. While he goes away,

01:22:41

I just wanna take this time to invite our viewers. If you haven't liked and subscribed to Apologetic Dog, please do that.

01:22:49

I just recently reached, Dr. Frost, 600 subscribers.

01:22:56

So woo! I've been very blessed. I started the

01:23:01

Apologetic Dog ministry, Dr. Frost, back in April. And so I'm new to all this stuff.

01:23:07

That's why a lot of times when I say, hey, let's start at six o 'clock my time, it's usually about a good, goodness, 20, 30 minutes afterwards until we can get going.

01:23:16

Gotta figure out all the lighting and stuff like that. And Dr. Frost, I have a website that's gonna launch in the near future.

01:23:25

So you know, I'm learning, I'm growing. I'm being saved by it. Anything I can do to help promote what you're doing in the church there in Arkansas.

01:23:33

I grew up listening to a band called Black Oak, Arkansas. Are you familiar with - Oh, cool. Yeah, not a lot of people know.

01:23:42

They did back in the 70s. They don't today, but. Nice. This is Amy Jill Levine.

01:23:49

She wrote a book, The Misunderstood Jew. Now she's a liberal, critical kind of scholar,

01:23:55

New Testament scholar. But I've been listening to her for years. She says a lot of good things.

01:24:01

But anyway, she's Jewish. So she grew up in a Jewish home. So here's the, listen to this paragraph. Belief in Jesus, this is how she starts the book.

01:24:11

Belief in Jesus as the Christ, the Messiah separates church and synagogue. Christians and Jews.

01:24:17

It is not the only distinction, but it is the basic one. For Christians, the claim that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life is obvious.

01:24:25

It is proved by Jesus's resurrection, confirmed by the Bible and experienced by the soul.

01:24:31

For Jews, claims of Jesus's divine sonship and fulfillment of the Messianic prophecies are false.

01:24:38

Since we live in a world of cancer and AIDS, war, genocide, earthquakes, hurricanes, the

01:24:46

Messianic age cannot be here yet. Since there is no Messianic age, obviously the

01:24:52

Messiah has not come. And that I've read countless times in many

01:24:59

Jewish books and Jewish ecumenical books with Bruce Chilton dialogues, Jacob Neuster, Jew Christian dialogues.

01:25:06

They all say, even Tobias Singer is another one. They all say the same thing.

01:25:12

If Jesus is your Messiah, you can have it because this world sucks. And do you think a good response is?

01:25:20

They've misunderstood the Isaiah 53 passage. Your Messiah first has to come on a donkey, humble, meek, to atone for sin, right?

01:25:31

To accomplish and pay for the penalty of sin. And so, yeah, that's what's interesting because I do a lot of apologetics.

01:25:40

I've interacted with many Jews and you know, it does - See, what you're doing,

01:25:50

Jesus said, my advent, I'm Messiah and I have not come to bring peace.

01:25:58

I've come to bring a sword. You're going to see wars, earthquakes, famines, tribulations, persecutions, hatred, false

01:26:09

Christ, false Messiahs, false churches, false church leaders, false teachings. Well, Jesus, isn't it easier for you to point out these things if you're with us?

01:26:19

Oh, I am with you. Be not deceived. Be alert. Stay on guard.

01:26:27

Keep your wicks trimmed. Keep your lamps filled. Love one another. Fellowship with one another.

01:26:34

Iron sharpening iron. Encouraging one another in the faith. Help each other to put the armor on.

01:26:40

Your foe, the devil and principalities and powers roam around constantly trying to invade on the inside, constantly trying to destroy you from the outside.

01:26:50

And I'm with you always. But he's come to bring this tribulation and this destruction, this turning fathers.

01:26:59

He says this. There's a expectation as you were saying correctly.

01:27:06

He will rule in the midst of his enemies. For how long?

01:27:13

Because it's also says that he will destroy all of his enemies and place all of his enemies under his feet.

01:27:20

So if he's ruling as Messiah at the right hand of the father, sitting upon the throne of David, Acts chapter two, he says this,

01:27:30

Peter says it. That's the promised throne that David saw. And that's fulfilled.

01:27:36

Daniel 7, 13, all power and authority has been given to me on heaven and on earth. The nations are now mine.

01:27:42

They've been given to me as a possession. I own them. They're mine. Make disciples of the ones.

01:27:47

And I will be with you always in the midst of tribulation, persecution, famine, daughters turning against their mothers fathers turning against their sons, sons turning because the gospel sometimes will divide a family.

01:28:00

Sometimes even a Jewish family, maybe a Jewish son will believe that Jesus is Messiah and the

01:28:05

Jewish parents are adamantly opposed and kick him out of the house. But that's what I've come to do until the end of the age.

01:28:13

See that all now starts making sense. It's like, oh, and this generation,

01:28:20

Jesus is telling them when he says this generation, I adamantly agree that this generation is the contemporary generation.

01:28:27

I've looked at this generation from every angle and there's a few different good viable angles to look at that kind of, but the consensus of scholars as liberal conservative is that it's a,

01:28:39

Jesus is speaking to his contemporary generation. Pretty hard to get around that one. Yeah. But what does he say to them?

01:28:48

And this generation is the terminal generation that will see the glory of God.

01:28:54

This generation will see all these things. What's all these things, famines, earthquakes, Jerusalem destroyed wars, rumors of wars.

01:29:01

And this generation will pass away. And another one's going to come.

01:29:07

You're not the terminal generation. Instead, get out of Jerusalem.

01:29:17

You're not, Luke's way of saying it is you will long to see one of the days of the son of man, but you will not see it.

01:29:27

That's what he's saying. So when he says this generation will see all these things, I have to ask, well, what is all these things?

01:29:34

Well, that's the beginnings of woes. That's the woes, tribulations and famines and earthquakes and all that kind of stuff, which is still continuing by the way, and will pass away.

01:29:47

Now, heaven and earth, he's answering their question there about end of the age, heaven and earth will pass away.

01:29:54

But concerning that day, what day? When heaven and earth pass away, the end of the age, the question you're asking, when is the end of the age?

01:30:02

Heaven and earth will pass away. But of that day, no man knows the day or the hour. And I thought, my goodness, that just makes too much sense.

01:30:11

He's actually answering their questions. They're asking, when is the end of the age? When is heaven and earth going to pass away and the fullness of your glory be expressed and manifested like it was on the

01:30:22

Mount of Transfiguration, when you can command 12 legions of angels and just blow everybody away. You could destroy the

01:30:28

Romans right now, Jesus, if you wanted to. You could do, you have this power to do this. Come on, let's see it.

01:30:35

Well, I'm with you always until the end of the age. Until then, you're going to see tribulation, famines, earthquakes, wars, rumors of wars.

01:30:43

You're gonna see all this stuff. You're gonna see Jerusalem itself. And so here's some practical advice. Get out of the city.

01:30:49

Hope that it doesn't take place on a Sabbath. These are days of great tribulation. Well, for how long?

01:30:56

Well, no one knows that, and I'm not gonna tell you that. And that's it.

01:31:02

I thought, man, I've spent too much time on this. His answer is rather simple.

01:31:10

Go and obey my commandments in all of the areas of your life, whether you're in school or whether you're at work or whether you're at church or in culture.

01:31:21

My kingdom is to influence everything you do and think. And that's gonna cause enemies.

01:31:30

Some people are not gonna like you because you follow my commandments, and they don't like that, and they're not your friend anymore.

01:31:36

Some of them may even speak evil against you, but I'm with you. So when you see these things, famines, earthquakes, persecutions, hatred,

01:31:45

I'm with you. You know what? Because I know what rejection means, and I know what persecution looks like.

01:31:52

I even know what suffering for death means. Can we include in that these things, including the destruction of the second temple?

01:32:01

I don't think that Paul is thinking about some rebuilt temple.

01:32:07

I think Paul in Romans nine through 11, the next thing on his horizon is life from the dead, is resurrection of the dead.

01:32:14

That to him, that is a restoration because who's going to be raised? Well, certainly the elect of those of the tribes of Israel, like Daniel and Moses and all those people of Dan and Naphtali and Reuben and all of the tribes,

01:32:31

Ishachar, and surely there was those that truly followed the Lord that belonged to those tribes that are now dead, but their spirits are in heaven.

01:32:38

They're going to be raised. Well, that's a resurrection of Israel of which the whole world will be raised in the nations.

01:32:45

And I want to join in on that promise of resurrection. I want to be a part of their resurrection.

01:32:51

How do I get in? Well, through their Messiah. Mm -hmm. Yeah, so Paul definitely is talking about newness of life.

01:32:59

Yeah, so like I said, I've really enjoyed Ken Gentry's book on how we missed the second coming.

01:33:05

And I like how you said, yeah, there maybe is a couple of different good ways of looking at the Olivet Discourse.

01:33:10

I love Ken Gentry. He and I, I can't say anything bad about it.

01:33:16

Well, hey, we continue to study these things and show ourselves approved. Dr. Frost, thanks for coming on to the

01:33:24

Apologetic Dog again. We're going to have to do this more often. I'm going to call you up. And like you were pointing out, my heart,

01:33:31

I care deeply about the souls that have been trusted to me at 12 .5.

01:33:36

And I don't necessarily ask for these wars, but I've been called to guard the flock, guard the deposit that's been entrusted to us.

01:33:45

And so when I start hearing the implications of spiritual warfare, man, it just, it gets me going.

01:33:52

So thank you for shedding a whole lot of light on this. Do you have any final thoughts that you would like to tell us all?

01:33:58

No, we're not. I'm not, I love Gary.

01:34:04

I'm not attacking, you know, Gary blocked me on Facebook and stuff. I've been doing this on Facebook for 18 years, for so long, that I don't have time for dodging answers and snipey little,

01:34:20

I just, you know, cut to the chase. You know, I get the whole linguistics thing and semantics and all that.

01:34:27

Most, I spend a lot of my time reading, you know, postmodern philosophers on language and linguistics and stuff.

01:34:35

Cause it's very, like Wittgenstein, I find it very interesting. So, but anyway, it's political speak.

01:34:42

We, and so, you know, Gary publishes my book. Or American Vision does, the e -book of it.

01:34:50

And he endorsed it. So it's sending mixed signals because full preterism is condemned in that book. And here is an endorsement, but yet he won't condemn full preterism.

01:34:59

So you can see where that, that's like you would be condemning of a Pato baptism and then you endorsing a book on Pato baptism.

01:35:10

That would send me a kind of a mixed signal, wouldn't it? Wait a minute, do you agree with Pato baptism or do you not agree with Pato baptism?

01:35:19

How can you recommend this book? Dr. Frost, I just did a debate about a week or so ago with Lutheran on baptismal regeneration.

01:35:26

So that's funny that you mentioned it. That's what it is for me. It's like, it's like, so then you would turn around and endorse a book by Pato baptism.

01:35:34

You know, it's like, you just had a debate. So that's a, and I get inundated with instant messages and emails and phone calls.

01:35:47

You heard my phone going off. That's like that all the time. Hey, what do you think about Gary DeVore? He endorsed your book.

01:35:53

And I said, I know, I don't know. I'm blocked. He won't talk to me anymore. He's blocked off a lot of people.

01:35:59

He won't. And this, we're living in a day and age of politics where you just can spin, lawyerize,

01:36:10

I call, lawyers speak. You can just spin words and language and spin it.

01:36:16

And Christians are let their yes be yes and their no be no. Tell me what you believe.

01:36:23

You're not gonna offend me. Just tell me, just come on. Do you believe in eternal hell or do you not?

01:36:34

So that's where that, I love Gary. I recommend Gary's books. I don't know how the fallout of all of this is going to be.

01:36:42

I'm just saying you're running, Gary's running with some folks that, I've watched families and lives destroyed by this stuff.

01:36:50

And I'm not exaggerating. I've seen it happen. I just got a call from a large, huge church in Oak View, California, who had to remove two families, a husband and a wife.

01:37:06

They were coming in and just causing all sorts of problems. And they wouldn't listen to the elders.

01:37:13

And one of them finally, they had to remove them from the church because one of them finally turned around and said, well, elders and pastors are not for today and you guys aren't pastors.

01:37:22

That was only for them back then. And I thought, and the guy was calling them. I said, that's what you're dealing with. So Gary, if you want to run with that kind of crowd, whether you like it or not, whether you endorse that or not, that's your crowd.

01:37:36

That's who's using you right now. And I'm hearing it. I've had years from full preterist buddies that are still full preterist.

01:37:46

Hey, we got Gary DeMar. We got Gary DeMar now. And I'm like, oh my gosh.

01:37:55

So you might hear as a pastor, someone coming to you. Yeah, but Gary DeMar believes.

01:38:01

And what do you do then? Because he's a respected, deservedly so. He's a respected person.

01:38:08

And it just, it's not helping. It just confuses and muddies the waters of an already muddy lake.

01:38:17

I want to clean the water up. Well, hey, I think you're doing an excellent job at that.

01:38:23

And thank you for coming back on the Apologetic Dog. And like you, I just want to echo this. We love Gary DeMar, so much great work.

01:38:30

And we've tried to highlight some of the points, especially in my life personally, where he's been helpful with me kind of reanalyzing certain points when it comes to eschatology.

01:38:40

And so we definitely highlight that, but I think you did a good job of also highlighting the concerns that we have.

01:38:47

And so we just want this video to be helpful to other people. We don't want a bad mouth. And so hopefully he'll unblock you one of these days in the near future,

01:38:57

Dr. Frost. But thank you so much again for your time. And I just want to also thank everybody that is tuning in to the

01:39:05

Apologetic Dog. Please like and subscribe. Please look forward to more future content.

01:39:12

Pretty soon I'll be coming out with my buddy Trey Fisher on Cultish, where we examine the

01:39:19

Church of Christ. And we believe that they're a cult, and we say that with love. And to warn people and saying, hey, this can be traced back all the way to the

01:39:27

Restoration Movement with Alexander Campbell. And so we got a lot more coming out in the near future. Also, I serve as a pastor and elder at 12

01:39:36

Five Church. Please look at our website if you're interested in some more teaching series and things like that.

01:39:42

And if you're in the area of Northeast Arkansas in Jonesboro, Arkansas, please search us out.

01:39:48

We'd love to see you. We recently had an event just a few weeks ago. We had Dr. James White come and preach on justification by faith alone.

01:39:56

And then one of these days, we're gonna get Dr. Frost to come visit to Jonesboro, Arkansas as well.