TGC Takes a Nosedive

Conversations That Matter

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:14

Harris we're gonna talk about the gospel coalition today and I'm gonna jump right into it before I do

00:20

I'll say one quick thing check out the link in the info section if you haven't signed up yet to come to the men's retreat

00:26

October 28th through 30th you're definitely gonna want to come Russell Fuller's gonna be there we're gonna have a great time we're gonna do outdoor stuff as men and some people have asked me about rides and John I'm coming to New York New York City is there a ride

00:40

I can get I I have had now I think two people talking about coming from New York City at least I'm sure there's more when you do sign up put in the comments that where you're coming from or email me let me know better to put it in the comments but email me and I'm gonna do my best to coordinate people so we don't have like people renting cars when they don't need to because there's people coming from the same area so would love to see you there at the men's retreat check out the link in the info section it's a great price it's gonna be a great time now let's talk about the gospel coalition shall we we talked about the gospel coalition so much and I just had the other day someone email me

01:14

John like tell me why the gospel coalition is bad or something it was something along those lines and I'm like I don't know like where do

01:21

I start like there's I mean it's not like every single article is terrible or anything it's just that they move the

01:26

Overton window left look at their their documents look at their founding documents their charter documents you can see what they're about from the beginning it's not like they hit all of it or anything but it's there's just some really cringy stuff some really bad stuff that they put out there and I've talked about a lot of it

01:42

I don't know how many articles because I haven't like kept count but I would guess I probably talked about at least I would guess by now

01:48

I've probably talked about over 50 articles from the gospel coalition what do you think 50 I mean I've talked about a lot of articles and 80

01:54

Robles has probably talked about even more than me I mean he really goes after them but I want to give you just in the last like week and a half there's just been so many things the gospel coalition has been taking a beating we'll put it that way a little bit and I'm gonna show you like this is just an example it's hard to quantify because there's there's so much of it in a way but I just want to show you like this is this is what's going on at the gospel coalition so let's start here oh

02:23

I was gonna I forgot about this I was gonna just share okay I'll briefly share this a few thoughts on why I'm not on Twitter I've shared this before people though still ask me sometimes

02:31

John why aren't you on Twitter can you go on Twitter it's stuff like this that makes me not want to James Lindsay was suspended and the reason

02:39

James Lindsay was suspended was because someone reported him for some kind of hateful comment he made now the thing is

02:46

Twitter allows all kind I mean there's there's there from what I hear there's and I don't even have to hear it honestly

02:52

I see the ads Twitter puts out there it's semi pornographic I mean they have they have stuff on there that is so offensive to Christian sensibilities and yet at the same time you can you can't say what you know certain

03:08

I don't know what he said exactly but you keep whatever he said you can't say it I think it had something to do with groomers or something he said something that offended sexual deviant people who practice sexual sexually deviant behavior so there you go that's

03:24

I don't want to I mean I know I'm on Facebook and I but I I don't know that more I think about the more

03:30

I'm like I just really want to give more of my efforts to places like gab and play it places like true social places that that actually aren't gonna cancel me because of my

03:43

Christian beliefs when you have organizations like Twitter that have a thumb on the scale as they are allowing discourse to take place it's you're not getting accurate just I don't even know what

03:57

I'm getting am I getting an accurate algorithm I don't even know I don't even know that on Facebook I mean I've been shadowbanned before so it's just it's not a place

04:03

I want to invest time they're getting money for having me on there I mean advertisers pay them to get to me so it's there's a lot of reasons but that's just one of them and it just reminded me of it all right let's go to TGC let's talk about it let's talk about the gospel coalition and and so we're gonna play some videos we're gonna talk about some things let's start with is this video from Sam this is recently

04:26

August 5th 2022 how to discuss sexuality in a post -christian culture how to discuss sexuality in a post -christian culture and the quote that TGC decides to post on their

04:34

Twitter is we don't live in a moralistic age where we need to prove people to be sinners we live in an anxious anxious sorry

04:41

I can't say that word we live in an anxious there we go age where we need to prove to people they're worth something so we don't need to live we don't live in a moralistic age where we need to prove people to be sinners we live in an anxious age where we need to prove to people they're worth something so you don't have to prove to people they're sinners you have to prove they're worth something okay

05:02

I mean there there is no age by the way the Bible doesn't like give you these categories there's no age where it's like you you know this age you don't have to prove that someone's a sinner

05:10

I mean people need to be convinced that they're sinners are you really you convinced that everyone thinks that you know oh they just don't know that they're worth something but they all know they're sinners

05:20

I'm pretty sure most people don't think they're sinners so weird comment and it's subversive because if churches believe this if Christians believe this and they say well

05:27

I don't have to prove to people I have to take them through the good person test or something where does that leave us I just got to go tell them they're worth something well so someone knows they're worth something now but doesn't have the cure for the cancer they have let me play for you some clips from this you're gonna be hearing a lot of Sam Albury and then who else is on this

05:45

Brent McCracken you're gonna be hearing a lot of Brent McCracken on this as well here we go

05:51

I'm also seeing at the same time something of a fairly worldly reaction to that very trend as well we're seeing more indications of anti -trans kind of things anti LGBT is a general type things

06:13

I think we're going to see more of an ugly response to the trend that you've mentioned alongside the trend itself continuing and I think one of the challenges that will give us as Christians is how do we not be with those guys without looking like we're with these ones making sure that our own questions concerns disagreements are not seen to be siding with what

06:38

I think is going to be a very aggressive and godless reaction to those things so being willing to to critique both of those trends as we as we see them so it met that may make life a little bit lonelier actually because I think each side is going to assume if you're not fully with us you must be with with the others yeah so we'll get caught in the middle

06:57

I think and I think we're just gonna have to to live with that I I'm like Sam I I'm always a little skeptical when anyone says exactly how things are going to play out in the next five to ten years because there really is no inevitable trend toward anything if you believe in a sovereign

07:19

God who upsets and upends trends all the time so what the some of the signs that Sam is talking about where there's been something of a backlash when it comes to the there's a with the transgender subject in particular those theories require an ontological shift an actual shift in its overall cosmology which the whole

07:46

LGBTQ conversation requires that as well if we're discussing marriage and other things if you can see it back there it's actually a different cosmology that's a that's at root and but but the the the transgender one is one that feels immediately more costly to to ordinary people so the question about women's sports for example and and things like there's going to be a lot of I think there will be a lot of conversation about that in the next few years and like Sam said some of it is not going to it's going to be a worldly pushback so it won't be there won't be the fragrance of Christ with that and I think that's one of the areas where we're

08:25

Christians will need to stand out both from the LGBTQ push but as well from from some of that backlash will not be the way that that Christ would would have responded so so that that's a that is something for for sure that I think we will we will be wrestling with as Christians we have the opportunity to raise sexuality away from the sort of it's nothing casual sex is fine as long as it's consensual to raise the the value of what sex is and to show the preciousness of it while at the same time demoting it from those who would make it their sole identity or or would find their identity intertwined with it to an extent that actually reduces them as a human being it's reductionistic to define yourself in your most fundamental being by sexuality that's actually a reductionist acute part of a vision of humanity that the

09:21

Bible actually gives us a better and stronger sense of the value and worth of humanity that transcends anything anything like that so I I do think we have an opportunity to stand out in in this environment but it will be it will be a challenge we've we've realized the

09:41

Spirit has come to convict of sin and the dangerous we feel very very convicted about other people's sins and it's very easy within a given church context to to excuse the majority sins and to focus on the minority sins the church shouldn't expect to see repentance in the world before the world is seeing repentance in the church so if we're if we're modeling the very kind of repentance we're talking about I was struck by that comment about the

10:10

Romanian situation and the gospel gives us a certain posture doesn't it whereas I think the the thinking of the culture that as we've expressed it so far gives a very different kind of posture it's a very aggressive assertive refusing to to be wrong kind of posture

10:30

I think a gospel -shaped posture that is is humbled and joyous at the same time will itself be quite compelling people might like not like what we're saying but they'll be intrigued by what we're believing is is doing to us as people so you see three things in that basically in this discussion one is that sexual identity is somehow reductionistic that if you think if you define yourself based on your sexuality that's reductionistic

11:02

I'd like to suggest something else God actually made you a sexual being and I'm not saying just physically you have gender

11:10

I'm saying ontologically deep down inside you're a man you're a woman

11:15

God made you a certain way you're not genderless when it comes down to who you are deep down inside and so that's it's not reductionistic to say that that's one of the core things that's one of the core elements of who

11:30

I am yeah sure I'm a man that's one of the core definitional things about John that he's a man and that and that and sexually or if you want to even say the sexual associated behavior with being a man and that that that would be also part of who what makes me me how

11:46

I was designed by my creator so sure that's that's one of the things

11:53

I hear a lot I've heard it for years now coming from gospel coalition types is like well we should just see that we transcend this that we're so much more that we're like okay yeah we were more than that but we are that and that is very important that's one of the things that that that does help show us who we are that makes us who we are and it's not even just a physical thing so that was one of the things the other thing and this would be something by the way

12:22

I should just say that for thousands of years people would look at you strange if you tried to make that like what do you mean like I'm just that's part of who

12:27

I am like I am I'm a man well you're so much more than that don't define yourself by that what well what what should

12:39

I what I'm a soul I'm made in God's image but it's like there's but there's more to it they're like deep down intrinsically ontologically

12:48

I'm made in God's image and God's given me personhood and identity and something unique that separates me from other human beings

12:54

I can't quantify it all but part of it is I'm a man so the church has not repented to enough a church is so inadequate you saw this you see this all the time churches they haven't repented they're focusing on the minority sins and not their owns what hypocrites so so you have that playing in this and then you have that we have to read that there's this this horrible anti -trans movement that's refuses to be wrong and is aggressive and Sam Albury's words and that the church can't get on board with that now

13:22

I don't know what he's talking about I really don't I genuinely don't know what he's talking about but okay so so this apparently exists and that's a problem and the church just needs to be careful

13:34

I don't know what world he's living in I'm not I'm seeing more the aggression and the refusing to be wrong and all that's coming from the other side and it's growing so I don't know what world these people live in it's very strange to me that they see this big anti -trans push a secular anti -trans push maybe

13:52

I'm missing something put in the comments in the info section if I'm missing something here but this is what it's about and the title of course of this was let me see if I can pull it up again here it was how to discuss sexuality in a post -christian culture there you go how to discuss sexuality in a post

14:10

Chris so that's how you discuss it you you I guess you have to admit you're wrong or be open to you being wrong don't be aggressive you know that and don't define yourself by your sexual identity this is just a recipe for failure and disaster and it's the same failure and disaster that TGC has been engaged in for a while it's it doesn't have any attachment to the

14:32

Christianity that came before it not not the Orthodox mainstream teaching the church has endorsed for thousands of years this is innovative this is new okay so TGC took some hits over this but especially that comment from from Sam Albury that basically you don't need to prove to people they're sinners and then so that was recent and then this this took place this was something that actually was old it's from June 24th 2021

15:00

I guess no one caught it though William Wolfe pulled it up and I think he might have seen this on Instagram maybe

15:05

TGC they sometimes will revolve all old articles and quotes from them and I think he saw TGC post this from an article from last year but there's he the article is called how should we respond how should

15:19

I respond to a colleague same -sex wedding let me read for you a quote every culture and nations must find common consent in public ethics specifically on what is prohibited permitted and promoted for the common good true toleration must include living peaceably with deep differences most

15:32

Western nations have extended marital status to arrangements other than heterosexual monogamy the wise Christian will affirm the legal right of consenting adults to order their lives without fear yet that right doesn't entail affirming the goodness of these arrangements believers can be good neighbors to all while diverging on some social issues this is the heart of peaceful and pluralistic society this is the principal pluralism stand this is

15:53

I had my I was taught this when I was in seminary principal pluralism so it's more important for us to maintain pluralism than maintain righteous ethics in the civil realm so we most

16:08

West it says most Western nations have extended marital status to arrangements other than heterosexual monogamy the wise Christian the wise

16:14

Christian will affirm the legal right of consenting adults there you go they're pro that's pro same -sex marriage the wise

16:20

Christian will affirm the right of consenting adults to order their lives without fear yet that right doesn't entail affirming the goodness of these arrangements so you should it's consenting adults should this is a right thing why is it a right thing well because that's the cost of living in a pluralistic society there there is a limitation to when you live in a totalitarian pluralistic society it's not really put that you see that principal pluralism thing is secularism basically that there's this common neutral secular ground we can all live in and you know we won't hurt the

16:51

LGBT groups the groups they won't hurt us we can all live in harmony problem is that man is religious and there's going to be a religion that will hold sway there now you can live in I think what we had at the foundation of this country a basically

17:06

Christian country in its social ethics its mores you had different denominations represented but it was basically

17:12

Christian and as a majority Christian it's not anymore and that means that there's a gap and the gap is being filled by humanism like your secularism whatever you want to call it like social justice you could say it's its own religion and it's totalitarian there is no negotiating with it it just it conquers it wins and so this idea that we can just if we affirm pluralism then we should be able to be fine with homosexual heterosexual sorry homosexual marriages yeah that's

17:41

TGC again yeah this and this is fundamentally what's that conflict with the Christian nationalist position Christian nationalists today the way that it's often described they don't they reject the principal pluralism they say low we're a

17:52

Christian country okay that's basically what they're saying we operate and they're not saying everyone's a Christian they're not saying

17:57

I idolize not not all of them at least you're saying I idolize America they're just saying we operate from Christian morality then you have this one here's an it's in August 9th 2022 that Paul's teaching frees the conscious of Christians to vote for political candidates that display radical and Christian behavior the article is called can

18:15

I vote for a sinful political candidate now the first thing I thought of probably youth you're thinking the same thing as Donald Trump Donald Trump well is this an apologetic for Donald Trump I don't think it was intended for that but why not right here's what it says

18:28

I argue that Paul's teachings free the conscience of Christians to vote for political candidates that display radically on Christian behavior this is because Paul is taking for granted the rules in Rome are depraved pagans yet he instructs the

18:38

Roman Church to engage in symbiotic relationship with them so basically the argument in this is that Paul in Romans 13 says basically we got to submit to government and we got to honor the king and this is what scripture teaches and because of that that means we can vote for candidates now it's it's a stretch

18:52

I don't see where he makes this jump but that's his argument that because we're supposed to honor the king we can vote for non

19:01

Christians because way the king would have been the rulers in Rome would have been non -christians so if that logic doesn't make sense to you you're in good company it doesn't make sense to me either we have to honor people who are in charge

19:14

I mean I have to honor my boss even if my boss isn't a Christian and I wouldn't have picked that particular boss but if I'm working

19:20

I have to honor that boss I mean it's like I have to honor my parents even if they're not Christian and I didn't choose them so okay like it's just strange to me if you have the opportunity to choose your boss or you have the opportunity to choose your parents let's say you're in a foster system or you're gonna be adopted

19:37

I mean you well because you're supposed to honor your parents I guess you can just choose whatever parent you want even if they're not like what what is that so I don't really want to go through this anymore that's the logic of it and it's kind of weird logic but TGC puts this out there

19:52

I think a lot of people who are suspicious of TGC thought well they're saying you can vote for Democrats and I think that probably is what they're saying but I'm just saying you could reverse this and say yeah you can vote for Donald Trump that's you know why not use it the the opposite of maybe the intentions that are there okay here's one again the gospel coalition if the

20:11

Enneagram is used simply as a classification tool it should be used it should be left up to the

20:18

Christian conscience and the article is by Joe Carter what Christians should know about the Enneagram August 8th some evangelicals it says find the

20:26

Enneagram to be a useful tool useful tool just like that critical race theory it's a useful tool for gaining personal awareness and for learning about people they don't have a personal history with such as members of a new church plant when the

20:38

Enneagram is simply used as a diagnostic tool or a person personality classification the question becomes less clear despite its origin story which is a cultish

20:47

I guess there may be enough of the Enneagram that remains useful or at least not harmful if that's the case so he's saying can't we just spit out the bones chew the meat he said we should proceed with caution and don't make weaker brothers stumble but if they begin to think new age oriented tools of self -discovery are also legitimate that would be bad but we should be willing to abandon the

21:06

Enneagram altogether for their sake but that's the only that's the best if you know so so I see

21:13

I'm not like overly familiar with the Enneagram my understanding though in the history that even given here is this came from a cultism this came from this is totally demonic and it's been synthesized and marketed just like Americans tend to do with new age stuff and all kinds of things it's now been promoted to Christians to use as this tool and so so I would ask where you draw the line is the

21:35

Ouija board a useful tool just they take out the demonic stuff I mean can you take out the demonic stuff that's the question like I don't is that even possible or is it part and parcel to what it is you can have a pagan philosopher discover things you can have like the

21:51

Pythagorean theorem okay and it can be a useful tool because it conforms to reality it's not its source is not demonic it's just this is the way the world works it's a right observation and it happens to be a pagan philosopher that discovered it okay that's fine useful tool it's different though when you start talking about spiritual things when you start talking about moral things you start talking about things that exist in the minds of sociologists philosophers psychologists cult leaders etc you're not in the real world anymore and it's not about whether it conforms to reality it becomes now it's it's it's something you impose upon reality as a useful tool to help it's a lens you put on or a tool you use to shape the world around you or understand the world around you so you're putting on someone else's glasses that are foggy and that's when it's it's not right and so my understanding of the

22:47

Enneagram which is limited I'll say and but a lot of the kickback is that's also coming to this is that look this is a pagan tool you know you can't be you can't what are we gonna say next you use the

22:58

Dungeons and Dragons you like what do you what can you use and it's acceptable so I think it's fair I think it's it's fair to point that out and to think about it and I mean some people bring up things like Lord of the

23:11

Rings like look you know and it which I just read Lord of the Rings last week look there's a wizard in there okay there's a wizard in there is

23:18

Tolkien writing what's Tolkien writing from he's Catholic so is he you know or his

23:23

Catholic views making its way to Lord of the Rings I mean there might be I didn't notice that but it's it's a general vaguely

23:29

Christian Christian kind of parallel universe he's created that's kind of what and he's using the term wizard but there really isn't like is there supernatural stuff yes there is some some parents have had problems with that but are the assumptions of Lord of the

23:49

Rings are the is the thinking behind that that you know you too can become a wizard and control your destiny and control the natural forces around you using these occultic symbols or something is or is it is it an ordered universe and there happens to be a category for wizard and there's good wizards and there's bad wizards and you know

24:08

Tolkien happened to use the word wizard which may be I don't know if we should use that I don't know what the etymology of wizard is

24:13

I think there's there's there's a difference there I think it's the difference between like Harry Potter and Lord of the

24:19

Rings to Harry Potter is exalting witchcraft as something very positive as and some of you might think

24:27

Harry Potter's fine I mean this these are things you have to ask yourself and I'm challenging you to ask yourself but we should have an affirmative standard not a negative one we should ask how is it good how is it helpful how is it meet the criteria

24:39

Philippians 4 not I I think we get into trouble when we're kind of like well it's not that bad or it's not you know we can everyone that has used it has always been pagan but we in the last like recent very recent past have been able to utilize it for non pagan purposes or something you should probably be suspicious of that so I tend to be against that stuff

25:05

I tend to be against you know using yoga yoga is the same thing it's like this was a spiritual thing and now it's but some of the things called yoga this is like where Gandalf was a wizard some of the things called yoga are just stretching like there is like they're literally they've taken all the things that made it yoga out of it to the point now it is just stretching so I think that's the argument

25:25

Joe Carter's trying to make here is that that's what you have with the Enneagram my understanding is the

25:30

Enneagram isn't like that oh it's not like Lord of the Rings it's not like stretching that's mislabeled yoga it it necessarily is based on astrological things and paganism stuff and so anyway

25:45

I I don't know if anyone I know this is popular but I don't know if anyone in my personal circles that I've talked about using the

25:51

Enneagram I just I'm just not aware of you know is it really that popular

25:56

I don't know but people have been going after TGC for it so I figured

26:02

I would at least show you that and if my ignorance of the Enneagram is showing my apologies that's that's just what you get with someone who

26:09

I know more about Myers -Briggs than I do the Enneagram and I don't like Myers -Briggs either I'm just I don't know

26:17

I'm just me you know and part of that definition is I'm a man it's

26:22

I wonder if there's people who are like oh you shouldn't be like saying that your your gender defines or your sex defines who you are that are then like by the way this is my number on the

26:32

Enneagram it'd be funny as if that's like definitional to who you are God defines who we are and it can't be quantified completely you can know some things about it but you're not gonna come up with like an abstract list of those things you know it when you see it and and that's that's what makes life to some extent fun and mysterious and you can live with someone for however many years and still get to know them in ways that surprise you and you didn't know before and that's that's a cool thing so anyway