December 21, 2018 Show with Marcus Pittman on “Babies are Murdered Here”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at IronSharpensIronRadio .com.

This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this 21st day of December 2018, just four days away from Christmas, and I am so happy to have as a guest for the very first time ever on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Marcus Pittman.

Many of our regular listeners will be familiar with that name. He is the executive producer and showrunner at Apologia Studios, creative director at Crown Rights, and cinematographer, known for Next Week with Jeff Durbin and How to Answer the

Fool. Today we're going to be addressing a documentary called Babies Are Murdered Here, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Marcus Pittman.

Thank you, Chris. Thanks for having me. Well before we go into your personal testimony of salvation, which we typically do when we have a first -time guest on the program, tell our listeners about Apologia Studios.

So Apologia Studios was built, going on four years now, April three years ago, and then that was started actually because Jeff and I kind of got connected through the first Babies Are Murdered Here.

That would be Jeff Durbin for our listeners who aren't familiar with Jeff. Yeah, Jeff Durbin was the pastor, is the pastor, and we did the movie

Babies Are Murdered Here, and I sent him a preview of it, and that's what started his church getting into abortion ministry, and from there he asked me to come out and do video production for the church, and we built the studios, and we have

Apologia TV, and Next Week with Jeff Durbin, Apologia Radio, and a bunch of other things, like even, you know,

Sheologians came out of there, and so a lot of Christian media has come as a result of what has happened out of Apologia.

Well, why don't you go through some of those things that you listed that Apologia Studios is responsible for?

For instance, Next Week with Jeff Durbin, a very unique program that, in fact,

I don't think there's anything even close to it anywhere on any in any media or on the internet.

Tell us about that. Yeah, well, Next Week, we're changing the structure of it, so that's going to be a panel show now, and sort of like The View, and so...

Don't say that! That's not a good way to advertise it to my listeners. A lot better than The View, a lot better than The View.

And so, yeah, so that's sort of a comedy show, but the purpose of it really was to really create a show that has a lot of views, so that we could really influence the culture on an important matter of abortion.

So it talks about a lot of different issues other than abortion, but the purpose of it really is, let's get a big audience and a big following so that we can impact the culture and speak to things that matter.

So, like, the idea is essentially that we have... God's given us the gift of media. We can reach large audiences via social media, at least for the time being we can, and so while we have that opportunity, we should create shows and content that reach a large audience, so that when we speak on issues that matter, a lot of people can hear it.

So it's sort of... that's sort of the basis of it, and that's why we started next week.

And then there's Apology at TV and Apology at Radio as well. And now tell us about Apology at Church.

And actually, you know, I was shocked recently because I know that Dr.

James R. White, our mutual friend, has joined Apology at Church and has become the scholar -in -residence there.

That's not what I'm shocked about. I'm shocked because when he was announcing that on the dividing line,

I'm almost positive he pronounced it just like you guys do,

Apology -a Church. He didn't say Apology -a this time. Now, has he changed the way he pronounces it now that he's a member, just because that's the way that you guys officially pronounce it?

Yeah, it's something supernatural that happens once you become a member. You start pronouncing it a certain way,

I guess. And so tell us about that church. Yeah, so Apology at Church is in Tempe, Arizona.

Actually, we're in Mesa, Arizona now, temporarily. So, well, the Tempe, Mesa, Phoenix area, and I think we're up to 300 or 350 members is what

I heard. And so we meet Sunday afternoons, and then we have community groups.

We have three elders, which is Jeff Durbin, Luke Pearson, and Zach Morgan.

And from Apology at Church, we have In the Portion Now and Apology of Studios, which are two separate ministries underneath the church.

And In the Portion Now is really the primary ministry that really is, like, making a ton of impact right now, in terms of saving lives and starting distinct church -led abortion clinic ministries all over the world.

I think we're up to 300 churches now that have signed up.

Wow. And each one of those churches are completely independent and under the authority of their local church.

And so, essentially, it's really great, because what we do is we help churches get started and provide them training and resources and signs and even, like, a plastic cone so they can be heard.

And we have people on staff who just help and answer questions if there's problems with the police or whatever.

And so, essentially, once a church comes to us, we interview their elder to make sure they're doctrinally sound and make sure that the elder is on board and the elders are going to be actively involved in what happens at the clinic, and they're going to support the people who go out at the clinic and that the church is ready and prepared to, you know, adopt a kid if necessary or pay legal fees or whatever the case may be.

We coach them through all those things, and then once they're out there doing it, they're out there saving lives and their complete own abortion clinic ministry.

So, since we've started, we've had 300 churches all over the country that are out every day.

Every day of the week, there's a church from End Abortion Now that's out doing abortion clinic ministries, and, you know, we kind of give them what they need and send them on their way so that they're able to do it.

And it's been amazing to hear, you know, how many, you know, thousands of babies are saved.

We'll never know the number now, but it's incredible. It's incredible.

Dollar for dollar, it's the best money you can spend on abortion clinic ministry, because you're getting churches involved who just do everything and fund everything themselves.

So, we're just like a little... we're just a little, you know, like a little Kickstarter to get someone going, and then once they're up and going, they're on their own, and they're taking it from there.

So, and it's gospel -centered. Everyone who's out there at the abortion clinic, they're preaching the gospel and making sure it's rooted in sound theology and not

Catholic. We don't let Catholics, you know, sign up to be a part of it, and everything is

Protestant, solid theology. Praise God.

Well, it's so... I am just so thrilled to hear the continual updates on babies that are being saved from being torturously and brutally murdered in their mother's wombs, and...

Yeah, we actually just had somebody come in the studio, and they gave a testimony.

I'm sure it'll be up soon. They had four... I think it's four kids. They had four kids, and she was pregnant with her fifth, and they were thinking about having an abortion, and they heard us out there preaching, and they just looked at each other and was like, no way, and you know, they even went in as far as got the ultrasound, and Planned Parenthood was saying, oh, you don't want to see what's on there.

It's nothing on there and all this stuff, and they were like, well, that doesn't sound right, and yeah, but we've had four kids, and so they, uh, you know, were like,

Planned Parenthood's lying to us right now to get us to kill our kids, and then, you know, so they left, and you know, it's because they heard us, and they saw some people treating us poorly outside and didn't think that was right, and they kept their kid, and they came in, the child came into the studio, and we, you know, got to see them laugh and play and stuff like that, so it's always a blessing, because, you know, like, this is, this is like really saving lives, like real lives, so, you know, it matters a lot.

Praise God. It's, uh, it's always great to hear that a ministry dedicated to something as important as rescuing babies from being slaughtered, that there's fruit coming from it, that there, it's not just a theory, it's not a hypothetical thing you're talking about.

You're actually rescuing children, and I just thank God for it, and we'll be giving our listeners contact information later on in the program, where you can keep in touch and find out more information about all of these wonderful things that Marcus has described.

Well now, Marcus, as I said before, typically when I have a first -time guest on the program, obviously when they are a

Christian guest, sometimes I have non -Christian guests, but that's a rarity, but when

I have a first -time Christian guest, I have them typically give a summary of their testimony of salvation, and if you could do that for us.

Yeah, so my testimony is, I was four years old, and I was sitting on my mom's lap, and I, maybe we were watching

Billy Graham, I'm not exactly sure, but I asked her about salvation and stuff, and I said the prayer, and as far as I know, that was legitimate, but what really ignited my faith was once I started getting into Way of the

Master, and so Way of the Master... And that was at five years old, was it? No, no, no, no.

That was maybe 2006. Okay. So yeah, so I would always call myself a

Calvinist. I went to a Southern Baptist Church that had a Reformed pastor all my life, same church pretty much, and so I knew

Calvinism, and I understood it and could defend it, but it wasn't until really Way of the Master that the doctrines of grace really just kick -started in me, and like,

I began to apply them in my life and really embrace those doctrines and love those doctrines.

That's interesting that you say that, because I was not aware, even though I know that Reformed people love the

Way of the Master, and they love those folks involved in that ministry,

I wasn't aware that they were Reformed. Well, you know,

I think it depends on who you hang out with when you do that stuff.

So when you're out there Shuri preaching, for me, like, it made the doctrines of grace come alive, because when you're out there talking to people and they're boasting in their sin and they're talking, you really see, like, total depravity come into effect, because you go, man, these people really are depraved, and then you also see that there's no way that they can be saved without faith, and faith is a gift.

And so you see that happening, and you see, like, no matter what you tell them, no matter what you do, no matter how clearly you share the gospel with them, their salvation is only from God.

Amen. And I know that the Way of the Master, one certain thing that they have that is strongly connected to Reformed theology is they believe in the importance of using the law in evangelism to make sinners aware of their wretchedness, that perfect standard that we are commanded to completely and perfectly fulfill that we never will be able to, and that's why

Christ needed to die for us and impute his own righteousness to us. Right.

And I look forward to getting those folks from Way of the

Master, although I've had Ray Comfort on the show for about 15 minutes. He does very short interviews.

Yeah, he does. I would love to have the other folks on. And I don't know why

I'm getting temporary amnesia, but... Oh, Kirk Cameron!

That's it. I don't know why I was forgetting his name, but Kirk Cameron actually spoke.

I wasn't there when he spoke at Hebron Colony Ministries, but Hebron Colony Ministries is a

Christian ministry for men who are seeking to recover and completely repent of addictions.

And I lapsed into, or should I say back into, a very serious and deadly addiction to alcohol after 18 years of sobriety a number of years ago.

And I went to Hebron Colony Ministries in North Carolina. I always look for opportunities to sing their praises because the

Lord used them to not only deliver me from an addiction, but to save my life. And before I got there, it was only a couple of years before I got there,

I think, Kirk Cameron came there and preached. And they used to have the video up on YouTube, I don't know if they still do, but he's doing a really good work there.

I admire him very greatly and would love to get him on the show eventually. Well, let me give our listeners our email address chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Please only remain anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable because the question involves a personal and private matter.

Just occurred to me that Apologia Church has their own recovery ministry, do they not?

We do. We have something called Redeemed Rebels that comes on, it comes on,

I don't know why they don't come on, but it's a Bible study group for alcohol addicts, and I think we do those on Tuesday nights at our church.

And the church itself was founded in some kind of a recovery organization, right?

Yeah, I wasn't there back then, so I don't have any stories to tell about that, but yeah,

I was started in as part of a drug rehab clinic, and they were doing

Bible studies, and then it developed into the church now. So that is as much as I know on that.

That's quite all right. And tell us now about how

Babies Are Murdered Here came to be, this documentary. I love the title, it sounds like a strange thing to say about such a horrific title, but the reason why

I love it is because I am tired of even conservatives and pro -life activists and Republicans and conservative radio pundits and TV hosts always restricting their vocabulary to the use of the term abortion.

And abortion has become, in my opinion, a very sanitized word.

It doesn't give anybody a jolt to their system, it doesn't make their eyes pop open and their heart start to race, and it doesn't make them start to sweat, it doesn't make them recoil in horror and disgust.

It's a clinical term, and it doesn't sound much different than appendectomy or something like that.

Babies Are Murdered Here says it like it is. Tell us how this documentary came to be.

So what happened was my friend John Speed in Syracuse, New York, he's the pastor of Christ as King Baptist Church.

He bought me a plane ticket and said, hey, I'd love to spend the weekend with you, and I'd love to spend the weekend with you and have you come and film like a promo video.

And you said, that sounds great, who is this? Yeah, well no,

I knew John Speed from Way to Master, and so we were friends, and he wanted to do a promo video for the church, and so we came up there, and by a complete act of providence, it was an accident for him, he got the plane ticket back at 8 a .m.

as opposed to 8 p .m. on Sunday, so I wasn't able to film any of the church. So he just said, well, we're going out to this abortion clinic we've never been to, you can go out there and film.

And so before we did that, a man by the name of Robert Gray was in town, and he went to go to the dollar store, and he got a dollar piece of foam cord and a two -pack of markers, a red and black marker, and he made this sign that said, babies are murdered here, and it was just something that was just like, man, it was just...

I had this reaction, like emotional reaction to it. I was like, wow, this is an amazing thing, and we went out there to the abortion clinic with it, and we made this, like, trailer.

We're like, maybe there's a movie here, and so about abortion, maybe I should do a movie on people who go outside of abortion clinics, and I took that footage along with some other footage

I had from abortion clinics, and I made this trailer and put it out there and asked people for money to make this movie, and only got $5 ,000 to make this movie, and I didn't have a job at the time, so I would just take the money, get a plane ticket, go somewhere else, but what happened was, people saw this trailer with a sign that said, babies are murdered here, and from the trailer itself, people started making their own signs, so the movie really became about this word, using the word murder to discuss abortion, and so that's what happened, and people all over the started gathering outside of abortion clinics, with these signs that said, babies are murdered here, and over the past year or two, just that sign has become so synonymous outside of abortion clinics, that Planned Parenthood created their own sign that they hang outside of Planned Parenthood that says, health care happens here.

So you have probably what was a million -dollar marketing campaign that Planned Parenthood paid for, to really just copy our sign and respond to it, and so, you know, that's

David and Goliath to me, is just picking up, you know, a $5 ,000 movie you place on YouTube, calls

Planned Parenthood to come out of the woods and have to respond to it, is pretty amazing and unbelievable, so that's,

I'm really thankful for that, they know who we are, but I think the shocking thing is, the biggest reaction, the negative reaction we've had to that movie, has been from the major pro -life groups, the multi -million dollar lobby groups, and so one of the things we found is, they really don't like to use the word murder when they talk about abortion, and it was baffling to us why they wouldn't call abortion murder, and we found out that if you, all these organizations, all the, every major pro -life organization in the country, all the major political lobby groups, they're all run by Roman Catholics, and in the

Catholic Catechism, there's a statement about murder, and there's one line in there that gives an exemption to people who commit murder if they're found to be victims, so I guess it's supposed to be self -defense, but it uses the word victim in the

Catholic Catechism, and so what we found out was, the reason they use the word victim is so they don't have to charge all these women with a carnal sin, and so if they're victims, if abortion victims, they don't have to kick these women out of the

Catholic Church, and so that's their loophole, and so it's a lot more, that's why they say, well, women are in a tough situation, they're struggling, you don't know the situation at hand, these women are victims, and Planned Parenthood lies to them, and all these things, but we know that a woman, when she's pregnant, she knows that she has a baby, right?

That's why they go to the abortion clinic in the first place, is to get rid of the baby. They're not clueless as to what's inside of them when they miss their period, and so they, right, no one is.

They're with knowledge, and they sin willfully, and so we were just found it shocking that one of the biggest, most controversial things you can say when you're talking about abortion in our nation is to blame the woman and call the woman a criminal.

That's the worst thing you could say. If you remember when Trump said it, when he was running for president, it was all over the news, he said that a woman should be tried for murder for having it, and he was just like thinking logically about it when he was asked the question.

I don't think he's ever really thought about the issue before, and he was thinking logically about it, and was like, well, yeah, if a woman pays someone to murder her child, she should be found as a criminal, and all the pro -life groups came out and was like, no, no,

Trump, we don't support you on this, you can't say this, and so you have really,

I guess, I don't know a proper term, is that a lot the pro -life lobby groups, pro -life

Catholic run groups in our nation, and even some of the

Protestant ones, to be honest, are very effeminate, and they're cowards when it comes to like really speaking the truth as to what abortion is, and they reject using the word murder, and that was in part in the first film, as we were just like, wow, these women,

I mean, these pro -life groups really do hate using biblical language, but there's a lot more to it, it's not just that, they don't like using graphic signs, they don't like using repentance and preaching the gospel, and so for them, they have a view of abortion clinic ministry, and a lot of Protestant pro -life groups have adopted their philosophy, and it's a very

Arminian, anti -reform view of preaching the gospel outside of abortion clinics.

For them, it's just like, let's just get them off the edge, and if we get them off the edge, then we can save their baby and develop a relationship with them over this nine -month period, and then maybe we can get to the gospel, but it's a hostage situation, and we just need to save the baby's life, and so from a

Reform view, when we're out there, these women are murdering their child, they're totally depraved, nothing we say or do is going to convince them otherwise but a miracle from God, and so our main hope is preach the gospel, and hope that even if they murder their child, what we said as they were murdering their child rings in their ears, and after they've murdered their child rings in their ears, and maybe they get saved later.

And so the problem with the secular or Catholic pro -life groups is there's no hope offered to the woman after she's murdered her child.

They're just, well, you murdered your child, you know, we can offer you counseling if you need it, but it's not gospel -centered counseling.

And so our main goal, really, is just to preach the gospel and pray that people's souls are saved eternally, and also maybe a baby will get saved every now and then.

The truth is that saving a child is hard to do, like there's nothing out there you could do.

An ultrasound isn't going to convince a woman not to murder her child, most of the time.

Hi, I'm Stephan Lindblad, assistant... sorry about that, that was a technical error there, sorry about that.

Okay, okay, so like the ultrasounds and the baby baskets, those things aren't going to convince a woman to save her life.

Most of the women who will even go to an ultrasound, they're all in the sense and not sure about it anyway, but a woman who is committed and she's,

I'm going to have an abortion, they're gonna do it, but from a miracle of God and a change of heart.

Yeah, in fact, I was surprised when Jeff Durbin was a guest, I believe it was the last time he was a guest on Iron Trip and Zion, he said that most of the women who they confront and you confront, meaning

Apologia Church, outside of an abortion clinic, are fully aware of the concept that they are murdering their baby.

I was surprised, laugh and joke about it, I was surprised to hear that. I thought that they might have been brainwashed as women years ago were, that it's just a blob of tissue, but obviously it flies in the face of even everything secular society does when they respond to a pregnant woman.

If the woman is very happy about this and intends to keep a child, they always refer to it as a baby.

Have you come up with a name yet for the baby? Have you felt the baby kick yet? You know, what is the gender of the baby?

But if she wants an abortion, all of a sudden it becomes a fetus. But it is quite horrific to know that women, many, many, many women, are getting their babies murdered and they're fully aware of it as if they are doing something that is mercy killing or something as absurd as that.

Well that was the thing, the first time I went to an abortion clinic, someone was like, you should just go out with us, we're just going to share the gospel and all the signs, you don't have to say anything.

And my attitude was like, you know, I just don't have, like I'm just not a mercy ministry counseling sort of guy.

I'm much more of like a hard truth, you know, in your face, you know, what you're supposed to do sort of person, like that's how

I am. I just, I'm not a counselor or, I mean, at least at the time,

I'm much more filled with grace now. But when I went out there, they're like, well don't even worry about it.

And when I went out there, I realized that that's not really the ministry that's required out there.

What we need out there is people that speak the hard truth. So what you need is the people who speak the hard truth.

And so that's what I found. Like I was shocked, the first time I went to the abortion clinic, there were women laughing, giving us the middle finger, bragging about how many kids they've killed in the past.

Wow. This will be whatever number and they do this all the time. And I was just like, whoa, this isn't women who are stuck in a hard position.

These are women who know exactly what they're doing. No, of course we don't, we don't want to, we don't want to talk to me.

We don't want, we don't want to, we don't want to get the impression though. That was kind of how that happened. And we have, we have to speak the truth.

We have to, we have to, you know, convict these women for, we have to convict these women for knowing what they're doing.

And we don't want to give the impression that every single woman is laughing about. Can you hear me, Marcus?

Marcus, you're gonna have to call me back because for some reason you can't hear me. I can hear you completely. Are you there,

Marcus? Well, hopefully when we go, when we come back from our first break,

Marcus will be able to hear me. I don't know why. Can I call back? Yes, you should call back, Marcus. When we come back, hello,

Marcus, can you hear me? Yeah, I can hear you. Okay, you, for some reason, we could hear you perfectly. You could not hear me though,

I don't know why. Okay. What I was, what I was saying was, we don't want to give the impression that we are saying that every woman that kills their unborn child is doing so with the gleeful and mocking attitude that you've mentioned.

There are, obviously, and there are even children who are being compelled, if not forced, against their will to get abortions by their parents, and there's all kinds of circumstances where women...

Yes, there's all kinds of circumstances, sex trafficking, of course, and parents that force women to have abortions against their will, but that's a very small number of the main business, or if you were to divide up, like, what percentage of sales

Planned Parenthood has, the very small majority would be women who are legitimately forced to do this.

Now, the pro -life groups will say that there are women whose parents are forcing them to do that, or they're going to kick them out of the house, or something like that, but in those instances, the mother is called to protect her baby's life at all expense to her own well -being.

So even in those instances, I would say that those women are still culpable in what they're doing.

You know, the Bible says that cowards go to hell, and so if you're in a situation where you're going to lose your house or something, you need to be brave and do what you have to do to save the life of your child, even in that instance.

Obviously, though, if the pregnant girl is a child, even though we would still believe that this is murder she's committing, there's going to be a lot less responsibility in an earthly sense,

I'm talking about, for her to make those kinds of decisions to refuse an abortion if she's a child.

I'm talking about a very young teen or perhaps...

It'd be a lot harder for her to make those decisions, but she's still accountable for God, for murder.

Right, yeah. And we have to go to our very first break right now, and as I said before, if anybody would like to join us on the air, our email address is

I was just about to give the website for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service because I was looking at it.

Our phone number, if you have a question to ask, is... and I'm here, I'm doing it again,

I'm giving a phone number. Our email address, if you have a question to ask, is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

That's C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, at least, your city and state of residence, your country of residence if you live outside the

USA, and please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And obviously, on a topic like this, I could readily believe that this topic would lend itself to listeners wanting to remain anonymous because of something that they have personally gone through in regard, or perhaps are going through right now, and in regard to this issue.

But if it's not a personal and private matter, please give us your first name, city and state and country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Don't go away, God willing, we will be right back with Marcus Pittman and more of our discussion on Babies Are Murdered Here.

Gotta tell you, for my money, Chris Arnson's radio program is just the best.

Iron. Criticizing Iron. I think that's what it's called. This is

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That's p -t -l -biblerebinding .com. Chris Sorensen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here.

I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years. His name is Dan Buttafuoco.

Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer, but not the type that typically comes to mind.

Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself. Recently, he wrote a book titled

Consider the Evidence for the Bible. Ravi Zacharias wrote the foreword.

Dan also has a master's degree in theology. Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states.

He represents many Christians in serious injury matters all over the country. Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer.

He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy. And currently, his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for $1 million or more.

And in approximately 10 different states. In Illinois, his lawyers had the fourth largest settlement in the state's history.

In New York, his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the law journal.

If you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state, I recommend that you call

Dan. Consultations are free. There is no fee unless you win. Dan Buttafuoco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878.

1 -800 -669 -4878. Or email me for Dan's contact information at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. Hi, Phil Johnson here.

I'm executive director of John MacArthur's media ministry, Grace to You. And I'm also an occasional guest on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

So I'm delighted that my friend Chris Arnson and I will be heading down to Atlanta for the

G3 conference, where I'll be joining James White, Steve Lawson, Votie Baucom, Mark Dever, Conrad Mbewe, Todd Friel, Josh Bice, and a host of other speakers to address the topic of biblical understanding of missions.

Chris Arnson and I hope to see you all at this very important conference from January 17th through the 19th.

Make sure you stop by the Iron Sharpen's Iron exhibitors booth to say hi to Chris. For more details, go to g3conference .com.

That's g3conference .com. See you there. Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, For am

I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man,

I would not be a servant of Christ. Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, pastor of Providence Baptist Church. We are a

Reformed Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689. We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts.

We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do than how men view these things.

That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the apostles' priority, it must not be ours either.

We believe, by God's grace, that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and to be vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of Christ in truth and love.

If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts or plan to visit our area, please come and join us for worship and fellowship.

You can call us at 508 -528 -5750. That's 508 -528 -5750.

Or go to our website to email us, listen to past sermons, worship songs, or watch our TV program entitled,

Resting in Grace. You can find us at ProvidenceBaptistChurchMA .org. That's ProvidenceBaptistChurchMA .org.

Or even on sermonaudio .com. Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Hello, my name is James Renahan and I'm the president of IRBS Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas.

The Word of God says, If a man desires the office of an overseer, he desires a good thing.

Do you have the desire to serve Jesus Christ in pastoral ministry? Twenty years ago, the

Institute of Reformed Baptist Studies at Westminster Seminary, California was born. For those two decades, these institutions worked together to train men for ministry in Reformed Baptist churches.

It has been a wonderful partnership. Now we have advanced our school into an independent seminary offering a full program of courses leading to the

Master of Divinity degree. This is IRBS Theological Seminary. We believe that the scriptures of the

Old and New Testaments are the inspired and inerrant Word of God. That Jesus Christ is God in the flesh who came to save sinners by his life, death, and resurrection.

And that the task of the church is to honor and serve the Triune God in all things. IRBS Theological Seminary is dedicated by God's grace to preparing godly ministers who will be committed to these doctrines.

Do you sense a call to serve Jesus Christ and his church as a pastor? Why not consider IRBS Theological Seminary?

You'll find more information at irbsseminary .org. That's irbsseminary .org,

two S's in the middle. I hope to hear from you soon. God bless you. My name is

Steve Lawson, founder and president of One Passion Ministries, as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier Ministries.

I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the doctor of ministry program at the Master's Seminary in Los Angeles.

I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students, Andy Woodard, serves as the pastor.

It's called New Covenant Church, NYC. They are a reformed Baptist church that meets in midtown

Manhattan. You can find their service times and location on their website, which is www .ncc

.nyc. They believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.

If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is simply biblical preaching, in New York City, I'd like to recommend that you visit

New Covenant Church, NYC. Again, their information can be found at www .ncc

.nyc. Have a great day. Welcome back. This is Chris Orensen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

If you just tuned us in, our guest today is Marcus Pittman, executive producer and showrunner at Apologia Studios, creative director at Crown Rights, and cinematographer known for Next Week with Jeff Durbin and How to Answer the

Fool. Today we are discussing Marcus's documentary Babies Are Murdered here.

If you'd like to join us, our email address is chrisorensen at gmail .com, chrisorensen at gmail .com.

And before we go to a listener who has a question for you in the Republic of Ireland, Marcus, you were talking before about something that may have gone over the heads of some of our listeners.

You were talking about a reformed approach to evangelism at abortion clinics as opposed to an

Arminian one. And correct me if I'm wrong, I think what you are getting at is like the reformed approach to evangelism and preaching in general and the

Arminian approach which often has pragmatism dominate the methodology of evangelism.

And you have things like the seeker -sensitive movement and the church growth movement that sadly, even some churches, congregations, and denominations that claim to be reformed have adopted as their own some of these

Arminian pragmatic approaches where you believe my main goal is to get a person to make a decision, therefore

I'm going to create an atmosphere where making a decision to follow Christ or in your case not have an abortion,

I have to make that as appealing as possible to get them through the door, if you will.

I have to use more candy -coated words, less frightening words and terminology.

There are churches that don't even proclaim the necessity of repentance or they don't warn about damnation and hell and they merely talk about how

Jesus is going to improve their lives here on earth and so on. Isn't that really what you were talking about as far as an approach where you think as a human being you have the ability to convince another human being through their free will to connect the dots, if you will, of what you're saying and come to a decision, yes, what you're saying makes very good sense,

I'm going to follow Jesus or I am not going to have an abortion and that is the Arminian approach that involves pragmatism whereas the

Reformed approach is that we are to proclaim the truth, let the chips fall where they may because our

God is sovereign and he is the one that brings the increase, our responsibility is to plant and water the seeds, he is the only one that can bear fruit from that, am

I right? Right, yeah, I would say it's actually even worse than that because a lot of the pro -life groups don't want you talking about God at all because they're scared that's going to make somebody, you know, jump off the cliff and kill their baby.

So, you know, and in other words, you hear this too in Arminian evangelism is you don't want them to go farther away and, you know, in Reformed view we know that they're already as far away as they could possibly get and only

God can, you know, bring them to life. So, yeah, so they don't want, I mean, if you go to like a lot of the pro -life trainings that are available like Sidewalk Counselors and Sidewalk Advocates for Life and all these organizations that do sidewalk counseling, they'll tell you not to discuss theology, not to talk about God, not to call someone to repentance, not to preach the gospel, not to use

Bible verses, because all those things will make somebody have an abortion even quicker.

And so in their mind it's a hostage situation and you just want to get them off the cliff and we know that the only one that's going to get them off the cliff is

God and if his providence allows this woman to murder her child, it's ultimately for the good of God's glory.

And so at that point we want them to hear the gospel because it's the only thing that's going to save them and bring them hope after that.

Right, amen. Many of our audience, many in our audience may not know what our next listener has to report, but yesterday the

Republic of Ireland made it law that women have the freedom to murder their unborn babies.

And Ireland was a holdout for a long time for the right cause to defend and protect unborn children, but now they have joined the

United States and other countries in giving women the alleged freedom to kill, brutally murder their children, as long as it's in a sanitized atmosphere of a clinic or hospital.

And the Republic of Ireland might as well join the United States and sew into our flags, because babies are murdered here, because it's a great tragedy that nations as enlightened as ours allegedly would be granting such a liberty to humans to murder the most helpless and fragile and innocent and helpless among us.

But Mary from Cork, Ireland, in addition to letting us know about this horrific update on the legalization of abortion in Ireland officially now, she says,

I had a friend who had an abortion and towards the end of her next pregnancy, the baby died inside of her when she was due to deliver in a few weeks.

I was there for the delivery, which needless to say was traumatic. Could her abortion have had something to do with this?

Also, what advice would you give to someone who is adamant to have an abortion and are hostile?

That's Mary from Cork, Ireland. Yeah, I don't know if her abortion led to her miscarriage.

I don't know any of the details of that. I have heard that abortion does make it harder to have a child, but I'm not exactly sure.

I mean, I don't know all the situations. But I would say, I would argue, well, why is she sad about the miscarriage and not repentant about the murder of her child?

Actually, I don't know if Mary was implying that the mother was sad about the miscarriage.

I think Mary herself, since she was an eyewitness to it, was sad about it. Oh, okay, okay.

Okay, so what was the second question? What advice would you give to someone who is adamant to have an abortion and are hostile?

Well, I think at that point, someone who is adamant about having an abortion and they're hostile, the only thing you can do at that point is tell them to repent and to be the mother that God called them to be.

And for men to be the man that God called them to be and to raise this child and to protect this child, and women to be the protector of this child.

So at that point, you can only preach the gospel to them. Because what they need at that point is a heart change.

They have a heart of stone at that point, and they need a heart of flesh. And the only way for that to happen is with a proclamation of the gospel and who

Jesus is and his burial, resurrection, and ascension. Amen.

Thank you, Mary in Cork, Ireland. Please continue to spread the word about Iron, Sharpens Iron Radio in the

Emerald Isle and beyond. And in fact, if you want information, especially now that abortion is legal in Ireland, as you have indicated to us as of yesterday, please take down the information for Babies Are Murdered Here and start spreading the word amongst your fellow pro -life folk there in Ireland and to anybody actually, to the women who are considering abortions or who think it's just fine and dandy.

Go to crownrights .org forward slash babies.

That's crownrights .org forward slash babies. And you can see the film for free,

Babies Are Murdered Here. Or you can just search on YouTube for Babies Are Murdered Here.

It's on there for free, too. Okay, great. We have Kathy in Mastic, New York.

When at the abortuaries, what is said by the ministry elders in an appeal to the fathers who bring their babies there to be murdered?

Are the fathers held accountable? I strongly support the abolition of abortion, and fathers need to also be a part of the dialogue.

And she also wants to say that Robert Gray is her dear friend and brother in Christ.

Oh, awesome. Well, for sure, the fathers are absolutely responsible.

I mean, the fathers of these children that are murdered have already failed in that most of the time these women are having sex outside of marriage.

So they're not the man that God called them to be at that point, and that they're not saving themselves for marriage, they're not caring for the woman.

And then when it comes to the child, their selfishness encourages the woman to go ahead and have an abortion.

So the men are just as responsible as the woman because they have violated their role as a protector of the woman and the child.

They're supposed to be a protector and the head of both of these people, and they've neglected that, and they've encouraged the child to get murdered.

So we do preach to the men. We tell the men not to be a coward. We tell the men to be what

God has called you to be, and that's to be a father and to protect your child, and to demand that the woman who is carrying your baby not murder their child.

And a lot of times the men are the ones waiting outside the abortion clinic that hear you speaking the most, and a lot of times the men do go back in and they rescue the mom and bring her out of there.

Wow. So there's a lot of stories of that. So the men are absolutely the ones that have probably the most influence on the woman who is murdering their child.

So the men are absolutely responsible for letting their child be murdered.

And so it goes a lot deeper than just pregnancy. It's before that too.

The man is neglecting his role as a man by letting a woman, by having sex with a woman outside of marriage in those instances for sure.

And in the instances where they are married and the man doesn't want another child, he's just being lazy and selfish, and he's not protecting his child at all.

Just out of curiosity, from your experience at abortion mills, how often are women going there for abortions that are accompanied by either their husbands or boyfriends or at least the biological father of the unborn child?

I would probably say maybe at least 50%. Wow. Usually they're dropped off in a car by, you know, the husband or boyfriend will come and drop them off in a car.

Or, you know, sometimes they don't even show up, but they're the ones that, you know, paid the check, you know, so that this could happen.

You know, they paid the 400 bucks to have the abortion or whatever. So they're completely involved.

I would think that there would be a very small percentage of women who make this decision completely without talking to the man at all.

And then in some instances, but I've seen instances too, where the man is outside crying because he can't convince the woman to not murder his child too.

So, you know, you do see the flip side, but even on that, you know, the man still drove her there, you know.

So you see a lot. You never get tired of the stories that happen outside of an abortion clinic if you just go, you know.

Yeah, and what magnifies the sin of the pregnant woman is when those occasions occur when she has her baby murdered behind the back of the biological father.

That is even more sinister, depriving the father of a right to have even a say in whether his child lives or dies.

Right, for sure. I mean, I know there are men out there, believe it or not. I know a couple of guys, at least, who insisted on having involvement in their children's lives even though the babies were born as a result of a one -night stand.

They didn't even have a relationship with the woman, and they thought so highly, at least, of the child in the womb that they wanted to be very much involved as a father to the babies after being born.

And these were men who were not Christians. These were just men who had at least enough love and compassion in their hearts for that involvement in the child's life.

But we're going to a break right now. This is our midway break. It's a longer -than -normal break because Grace Life Radio 90 .1

FM in Lake City, Florida requires of us a longer -than -normal break in the middle of our show because they have to localize

Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio to Lake City, Florida with their own public service announcements and commercials. So use this time to not only write down questions for Marcus Pittman about abortion, but use this time to write down the information provided by our advertisers so that you can more successfully and frequently patronize them because the more you patronize our advertisers, the more likely they will remain our advertisers, which means the more likely we will remain on the air because we rely upon our sponsors' advertising dollars to exist in addition to the generous contributions of listeners like you.

So please write down the information of our advertisers and also write down questions for Marcus Pittman and send them to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

chrisarnson at gmail .com. And don't go away. We'll be right back, God willing, after these messages with Marcus Pittman and more of Babies Are Murdered Here.

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Hi, I'm Stephan Lindblad, Assistant Professor of Systematic Theology at IRBS Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas.

I accepted this call to teach at the seminary because I'm firmly convinced that the people of God in the churches of our

Lord Jesus Christ need to be firmly grounded in the truth of Holy Scripture. I'm excited to be teaching such subjects as the nature of theology and the doctrine of Scripture, and even the doctrine of the person and work of Jesus Christ.

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Welcome back, this is Chris Arnzen, and I just have a few announcements to make before we return to our guest,

Marcus Pittman, on our theme, his documentary titled, Babies Are Murdered Here.

These are events that we hope that you all will attend, and I will be at each and every one of them.

The first event is an event that I have been running almost every year since the 1990s when my late wife,

Julie, basically, who was the brainchild of this event, convinced me to start running annual pastor's luncheons.

They began during the Christmas season, and my wife said one year, instead of us exchanging

Christmas gifts, why don't we use that money to treat your pastor friends to a luncheon for free?

And that was a great idea. She knew that I had a lot more friends who were pastors than the average person because of my work in Christian radio.

So we began doing that. We got publishers to donate free books to all the men that attended, and this luncheon, year after year, began to grow and grow and grow until the point when we needed corporate sponsorship to help us because we could no longer afford the financial burden on our own.

So after relocating here to Pennsylvania, Carlisle, Pennsylvania, after my precious wife went home to be with the

Lord for eternity with Christ, I relaunched the Iron Sherpins Iron Radio Pastor's Luncheons, and the next one is going to be

Thursday, January 3rd, from 11 a .m. to 2 p .m. at the Carlisle Fire and Rescue Banquet Hall in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

And this continues to be a free event. There is nothing for sale at these luncheons.

There's no ulterior motive. There is no hidden agenda. This is just an event to treat men in the ministry to a time of rest, relaxation, fun, fellowship, feasting, an excellent message powerfully proclaimed by a gifted man of God, and free books by the majority of the major evangelical publishers in the

United States and the United Kingdom. Each one of these publishers donates 100 copies of a book that I select from them so every man in attendance can get a copy of that book.

So each man leaves those luncheons and the one to come with at least two heavy sacks of books, brand new books, absolutely free.

And our speaker this year at the luncheon is Dr. Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

As I said, this will be held at the Carlisle Fire and Rescue Banquet Hall, Carlisle, Pennsylvania, Thursday, January 3rd, 11 a .m.

to 2 p .m. For more details just send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

chrisarnson at gmail .com And if you'd like to come I will register you. Please register at least

RSVP at least by January 1st. And then immediately following the luncheon, from Friday January 4th through Sunday January 6th,

Dr. Tony Costa is sticking around this area here in Pennsylvania and he is going to be speaking at a three -day

Bible conference that I've arranged with my friend Pastor George Jensen of the Enola First Church of God in Enola, Pennsylvania.

As I said, it is going to be Friday January 4th through Sunday January 6th.

And this is going to be, I think, a phenomenal event as well. Unlike my pastor's luncheon, this event is open to every man, woman, or child who desires to attend.

And you don't even need to be a Christian. You could be a Muslim, a Jew, a Hindu, a Buddhist, an atheist, or even a

Swedenborgianist. We would love to have you come. And the theme is Contending for the Faith, The Church in a

Postmodern World. If you would like to attend this free conference at the

Enola First Church of God, January 4th through the 6th, call 717 -732 -4253, 717 -732 -4253, or go to enolacog .com,

enolacog .com, forward slash Bible -conference. And then, after that, towards the end of January, we have the

G3 Conference returning to College Park, Georgia, a suburb of Atlanta. I will be manning,

God willing, my third exhibitor's booth for Iron Sharpens Iron Radio at the G3 Conference, which stands for Gospel, Grace, and Glory.

The speakers are phenomenal, as always, and the list of speakers on the roster is very long, as always.

Our friend Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries is speaking there. John Piper, Stephen J. Lawson, Votie Baucom, Mark Dever, Conrad M.

Bayway, who I believe is the most powerful preacher alive on the planet Earth, pastor of Coboata Baptist Church, Lusaka, Zambia, Africa, and chancellor of African Christian University.

Tim Challies is there. Phil Johnson, executive director of John MacArthur's ministry. Grace to you.

Todd Friel of Wretched TV and Wretched Radio. Stephen J. Lawson, president of Reformation Bible College, the college founded by the late

R .C. Sproul and Ligonier Ministries, and many more are on that roster. If you want to register, go to g3conference .com,

g3conference .com, the theme is The Mission of God, A Biblical Understanding of Missions. On Wednesday, January 16th, there is a pre -conference event featuring

Dr. James R. White and a panel who are going to be addressing the social justice warrior movement.

So you might want to come early to attend that, and also if you have Spanish -speaking friends and loved ones, there is a

Spanish -speaking version of the conference that begins on Wednesday the 16th as well. I would strongly urge you to man an exhibitor's booth there and register for one while there is still room, because they are expecting between 4 ,000 and 5 ,000 people to attend this event.

That is g3conference .com, g3conference .com. And then, even later in January, after that, the

Deep South Founders Conference is being held from January 24th to the 26th at the Bethlehem Baptist Church in Laurel, Mississippi.

I will be manning my first exhibitor's booth at this conference ever, and this will also be my first visit to Mississippi in my entire life.

The Deep South Founders Conference is on the theme of sanctification this January, and the speakers include

Rusty Reed, Gerald Henderson, Jason Goodwin, Bobby Crenshaw, and the aforementioned

Dr. Conrad M. Bayway. If you'd like to register for this event, go to deepsouthfounders .com,

deepsouthfounders .com. Now, if you love Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, you listen to it all the time, either live or through the

MP3s that are archived at ironsharpensironradio .com, you just love to share the

MP3s with family, friends, and loved ones and acquaintances. You love the topics and the guests that we feature on my program that very often are never heard anywhere else.

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Never do that. Never put your family in financial jeopardy by giving to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio either. Those two things are commands of God providing for church and home.

Providing for Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is not a command of God, but if you love the show and you don't want it to disappear, and you are financially blessed above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands, then please give as heavily as you can and as frequently as you can to ironsharpensironradio .com,

click support, then click click to donate now. If you want to advertise with us, send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

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I believe, then we will help you launch an ad campaign immediately because we are in urgent need of your advertising dollars.

So that's chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Also, you can send me an email if you are without a church home and you need one.

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I have lists of biblically faithful churches all over the world, and I have helped a number of Ironsharpensironradio listeners find church homes near them all over the world.

So please send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com and put I need a church home in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question for our guest today,

Marcus Pittman, on his documentary, Babies Are Murdered Here. That's chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

chrisarnsen at gmail .com. And let me ask again, Marcus, are you there? I'm here. Great.

We do have a Canadian listener with a question. He has a very unusual name.

Sika Lee is his name, and Sika Lee asks,

I tuned in a bit late, I apologize if this was addressed already, but is this movie on the big screen?

Where and when would it be available? I'm up in Canada, and we miss out on a lot of resources.

Oh, I think that was a clever way of American. Murican. Murican, he wrote.

I think that was intended to be humorous. God bless you and your ministry, Marcus. And this is

Sika Lee from Ponoka, Alberta, Canada. Okay, so the first one is on YouTube for free, and then we're working on the sequel now.

The sequel is called Babies Are Still Murdered Here, and that will come out third quarter 2019, third, fourth quarter 2019.

And this movie that we're working on, I don't think we've talked about it yet, but since there was such a tremendous response to the first one, the second one we're going to be talking about how the pro -life movement is actually harming the legislation of ending abortion.

So politically, we're going to show how pro -life lobbies have no intention to really end abortion in America.

So your main goal is obviously seeking popularity. Oh, man.

Well, no, because if my main goal is seeking popularity, I'd spend millions and millions of dollars to get the movie in theaters, but we're going to give this movie away for free, just like the second one that's going to be placed on YouTube, and everyone will get to see it.

And I don't think it's not a good business decision to put a movie in a movie theater anymore because you have to spend thousands of dollars for every theater that hosts the movie, and you have to spend millions of dollars on marketing to make people aware that the movie's out.

And so it's just better to just release stuff on the Internet and let people watch and share and do it that way now.

God's really created a way where anybody can make something and put it out and have it be seen on YouTube or Facebook or whatever, and so we should really utilize those technologies that God has given us to make as much content and as much good content as possible and put it out there.

Yeah, so for In Abortion Now, all the money that's raised to make this movie this year and to continue to fund

In Abortion Now and develop churches, all that money's going towards making this movie, and it'll be put out for free for everyone to see.

So it's going to focus on the legislation aspect of abortion and Roe v.

Wade and why we shouldn't put our hope in Roe v. Wade and all those things. Thank you,

Sickle Lee. Keep spreading the word in Alberta, Canada, and beyond about Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

By the way, there are, in some communities, just like the one

I'm in here in Carlisle, there are some of these old -fashioned theaters that not only play the big movies that are currently released and available in theaters, but some of these old -fashioned theaters that perhaps have been restored, they allow nonprofit organizations to very inexpensively rent the theater to play a movie, and some of these theaters might be willing to work with church groups to play the new one,

More Babies Are Murdered Here, or what was it you said it was called? Babies Are Still Murdered Here. Babies Are Still Murdered Here.

You might get theaters who are willing to play that if the local church groups are combined efforts.

One of the ideas that we had, I don't know if this will happen, but one of the ideas we had was that when the movie comes out later next year, is to have all 300 of our churches around the country that are doing abortion clinic ministry open up their church and play the movie one night, and then that way you have 300 screenings all across the country at once.

So that would be an idea. We haven't really talked through the logistics of that, but that's at least in our thoughts on how to do that.

Great. Okay, we have another question from Mary in Cork, Ireland.

She wanted to clarify something about her last question. Mary says she didn't have a miscarriage.

This is referring to that woman who first had an abortion and then later wanted to have a child, but it was stillborn.

Well, I'll have her clarify what it was. She didn't have a miscarriage.

She was induced, and she delivered a perfect dead baby boy.

He came out warm and went stone cold. It was desperate.

So that's a clarification on that. I don't know if you have anything further to say about if there's a possibility for a medical reason her previous abortion somehow medically or physically harmed the mother so that her baby was born, at least died very quickly after it was born.

It's a possibility, but I don't know that. God is sovereign over those things. Do you know if that is statistically something that happens?

I agree with you. I remember as a teenager, I had a friend who was very promiscuous sexually who got his girlfriend pregnant multiple times, and she had abortions multiple times, and I can remember my friend, who will remain nameless obviously, laughing and joking about it and getting that thing ripped out of her, as he described it.

But I remember she, the last time he impregnated her, she had the baby because her doctor said, if you get another abortion, you're not going to be able to have any more children.

So I know I concur with what you said earlier in that regard, but is there any statistic about the probability of babies being born dead after an abortion?

Yeah, I don't know anything about that medically. I would assume that it does make things harder and more difficult, but I'm not exactly sure on the science and stats for that.

Okay. Let's see here. We have

Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, and Arnie says,

Chris, on many occasions on your show, I have heard you say that there should be a rally cry amongst people who believe in the sanctity of unborn life to televise an abortion on major networks so that people can vote intelligently every time an election is coming up.

It's just like you said in the past that many people in the world did not believe the atrocities of the

Holocaust until they saw with their very own eyes the film reels of these events in history.

What does your guest think about a more strong push to the pro -life movement and to actual stations and media to televise abortions so that people can see the brutality of this and that it is indeed murder, especially when these stations like Fox News allege to be conservative?

And yes, I am glad that our listener brought up the fact that I have said this before. In fact,

Marcus, years ago in the 90s, when Pat Buchanan was running for president under the

Reform Party ticket, he was being interviewed on a station that I worked for, a

Christian station, and I called in, it was a live call -in show, and I called in and I said to Pat Buchanan, why aren't any conservatives pushing to have abortions televised so that we can more intelligently vote as a public when we see what is actually happening?

And Pat Buchanan, the poster boy for conservativism, the most conservative candidate at that time running for office, he said, oh, we wouldn't want to do that, that would be like televising an execution.

And I said, that's my point! Yeah, right, right. So what is your comment on that?

Well, I've said routinely if I was president of the United States, the president of the

United States has the power to address the nation at any time, and you see this after 9 -11 or something like that, the president can call a meeting, and he can make all the television stations appear on the

Oval Office at 9 o 'clock at night or whatever, and if I was the president of the United States of America, once a week

I would force all the local TV stations to broadcast my address from the

Oval Office where I would show graphic pictures of abortions, and I would show up in front of abortion clinics, and I would use all the power of the presidential bully pulpit to stop abortion.

But right now what you have is simply, it's just a political tetherball that people are knocking back and forth, and nobody really wants to end it.

Nobody really wants to end it, because it's used really as a way to gather votes, and there's a lot of money for the

Republican office holders that take money from pro -life lobby groups to vote on non -influential legislation that doesn't represent anything, so that they can say that they're pro -life, and then the pro -life lobbies can say, well look, look at what, for example, the pro -life organizations,

I believe, collected, it might have been $250 billion, a quarter of a billion dollars, and they passed the partial birth abortion ban, and that partial birth abortion ban did nothing to stop abortions, all it did was...

And unfortunately... Marcus, can you repeat what you said? You got cut off.

Oh, okay. You picked up where you said, unfortunately the ban on partial birth abortion, and then you got cut off.

Okay, unfortunately the ban on partial birth abortion, they spent $250 billion to get it, and all it did was it moved the baby up four inches to where it could legally be murdered.

So that's not a victory, that's just this weird legal loophole that most abortion doctors aren't going to really follow anyway.

All right, we have to go to our final break right now, it's more brief than the last one. If you want to send in a question, do so now, because we're rapidly running out of time.

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away, we'll be right back with Marcus Pittman and more of our discussion on Babies Are Murdered Here.

Hi, Phil Johnson here. I'm executive director of John MacArthur's media ministry, Grace to You, and I'm also an occasional guest on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

So I'm delighted that my friend Chris Arnzen and I will be heading down to Atlanta for the

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Make sure you stop by the Iron Sharpen's Iron exhibitors booth to say hi to Chris. For more details, go to g3conference .com.

That's g3conference .com. See you there. Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, for am

I now seeking the approval of man or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man,

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Let's see here. We are back with our guest, Marcus Pittman, in our final segment of the program today regarding Babies Are Still Murdered Here, the sequel, actually, that's coming out later on in 2019, the sequel to Babies Are Murdered Here.

So keep your eyes and ears open for that. And Marcus, are you still there?

Yes, I'm here. Okay, great. Glad that you're still with us. Let's see here.

We have a listener, Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania, who says,

How necessary do you think graphic visual images are to your work at the abortion mills?

Rather than just using words and signs with wording on them, aren't these photographs and perhaps even the actual fetuses that can be made available very powerful in really shocking people into realizing the truth of the matter?

Yeah, they're powerful. We do use them. And any church that signs up at anabortionnow .com,

they will receive some signs for free, and it includes one graphic image.

So they are used, and the reason we use them is, one, a lot of women will see that and the visual imagery reminds them of, when they're leaving, of what they've done.

And we want that to be ingrained in their heads. We want the sin to be ingrained on their hearts, because that will lead them to repentance.

But the other thing, too, is those images are important for the abortion clinic workers and the escorts for them to see it and to know and to stare at the face of what they're defending.

So nothing's going to change someone's mind other than the proclamation of the gospel and God working in their heart.

So that's, like, foundational. We don't want to get to a point where we're saying, well, if we have an ultrasound truck or if we have an abortion, a graphic image, these things are going to help us more than the preaching of the gospel will, because ultimately and foundationally, the preaching of the gospel is your strongest weapon out there.

And everything else is helpful and impactful and God uses, but ultimately it's the preaching of the gospel and just telling people the truth about what they're doing.

God says, don't murder, thou shalt not murder. Don't murder your child. And that's most important.

Yes, just like when it comes to political activity or anything else, it's the preaching of the gospel and the transforming of dead, wicked hearts into new hearts of flesh that Jesus Christ himself replaces in the lives of his elect when he removes their hearts of stone and gives them hearts of flesh.

That is what will transform individuals and will transform nations in regard to these atrocities.

And sometimes we say, oh, that just happens too slowly. We can't just rely upon that, but that's ultimately what we always have to rely upon, isn't it?

Yeah, that's it. Yeah, I mean, it's sort of like evidential versus presuppositional apologetics.

It is. No, it really is. So evidentialism says, well, we can show them all, evidentialism at the abortion clinic is, we'll just show them the ultrasound, we'll just show them these graphic images, we'll let them know that it really is a baby.

But presuppositionalism says, no, no, they already know it's a baby, and we don't have to use evidences to convince someone because they already know, they're with knowledge, they know they're sinning against God, and we just need to remind them of who

God is, who they're sinning against. And that's really the ultimate point.

And so it is. Your apologetic style affects everything you do in life.

So it affects how you do at the abortion clinic, it'll affect how you witness the people every day.

We have Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, who asks, you were speaking critically before about pragmatism, but do you think that there is any truth and benefit behind incrementalism when it comes to outlawing abortion?

I understand that, for instance, many pro -life libertarians believe that abortion should be, to begin with, state rights issues rather than federal issues, and that incrementally we are more realistically going to have victories and ultimately achieving nations that are across the board pro -life.

But what is your guest's opinion of this? Well, the problem is, and Babies Are Still Murdered here is going to talk about this issue specifically.

So let's just say, as a pro -life conservative, when the pro -life lobbies make a law, like one of the laws they would pass a lot is they say, well, if we just create laws that make old abortion clinics have to appeal to modern -day health care standards of what a health care facility should be and follow the

ADA rules and regulations, well, as a conservative, I can't support that bill anyway because I don't think the government should be involved in health care or regulating health care.

So a lot of the incremental laws aren't even conservative or Republican positions.

They're actually liberal, and the idea of regulating an abortion industry is just as bad as regulating businesses as a whole.

Like, as a conservative, I don't want to regulate any industry. I want the free market to do its thing. So as a conservative, as someone who gets their view of economics from scripture,

I can't even stand behind those on that core basic principle. But the other issue is that the pro -life legislation actually makes it harder to overturn

Roe v. Wade. So let's take, for example, tomorrow, Roe v.

Wade is overturned tomorrow, and so that means that abortion goes back to the states to decide.

Well, a lot of the pro -life legislation that the pro -life groups have put in place actually makes abortion legal in those states.

So, for example, if they say abortion shall be legal at any time before 23 weeks, well, that's a rule that the pro -life lobbies put in place, and they're like, see, it's a victory because you can't have abortions up to nine months.

But once Roe v. Wade is overturned, abortion is now legal in the state because of that law. So now we have to go through the process of uprooting all the pro -life laws that make abortion legal in certain circumstances.

And then finally, if Roe v. Wade were to be overturned tomorrow, you better believe that Planned Parenthood has a constitutional amendment ready and the process is ready to get a constitutional amendment to make abortion legal with or without Roe v.

Wade being overturned. And we know that can happen because that just happened in Ireland where the people voted for an abortion amendment to be overturned.

They already had abortion in a constitutional amendment, and they were able to take it off. So the issue here is really, and most importantly, about a local government, like let's say a city or a state, telling the federal government to just ignore

Roe v. Wade, take unjust laws, even if it's up to the point of a constitutional amendment, because at that point you have the real power.

And so this happened with the Dred Scott case in Wisconsin where we said that slaves are our property, and Wisconsin ignored the federal government and said we reject that Supreme Court decision, and we believe that black people are indeed humans.

So they resisted the Supreme Court. And then we see local governments resisting the federal government with like marijuana,

Colorado and Washington. They've said we don't care what the federal government says about marijuana being illegal.

We're going to ignore the federal government, and we're going to let marijuana be legal. And then we see it with sanctuary cities where there's immigration, where the states are ignoring the federal government's rules on immigration, and they're setting up sanctuary cities.

So the states ignore the federal government all the time. So the best way to end abortion is just to outright ignore the federal government and just make it illegal.

And it's pretty easy. I think Christians need to start thinking about politics and getting involved in politics, because you can get a city council seat with less than 10 ,000 votes sometimes.

So it wouldn't be hard for all the churches in the community to gather together and to find a godly man who's able to run and meets the biblical requirements to run for office and just vote him in.

It'd be pretty easy. A lot of the city council members run unopposed. So once we start figuring out how the church can influence the local government and still be the church, not become the government, and still, you know, those distinctions need to be made.

But there's no reason the church can't come together and speak. We've been doing that at Apology of Church.

We've been going to the city council meetings, and we've been addressing the pro -life politicians, the supposed pro -life politicians, and the pro -choice politicians on the city council.

And every week we go there. Are you there, Marcus? Yeah, I'm here.

Every week you go there and what? And we speak to the city council, and we tell them that abortion is...

Yeah, and are you there? Try to repeat one more time what happens at these weekly meetings. I think that we may have lost...

Hello? Hello, are you there? Yes, now we are. Okay, I can hear you. Probably Apache area of the desert

I'm going through. But anyway... Yeah, we... That's way more effective.

So that's the strength of the approaching it from a state's issue rather than a federal issue. Hello? Yeah, I'm here.

Yeah, is that the strength of approaching it from a state's issue like a Ron Paul would advocate, for instance, in a

Rand Paul, rather than a federal approach? Yeah. All right, looks like we're losing you, so we're going to end the program.

I want to make sure that our listeners have your contact information. Once again, if you want to see

Babies Are Murdered Here, it's a strange thing to say, but if you want to see this so that you can spread the word about this valuable documentary and also keep updated on this sequel,

Babies Are Still Murdered Here, go to crownrights .org forward slash babies, crownrights .org.

No, no, no, go to endabortionnow .com. Go to endabortionnow .com, endabortionnow .com.

And you can donate to help make this movie happen, and in addition to making the movie this year, we're still going to be funding and starting churches.

So if you just go to endabortionnow .com slash donate, you can donate to our ministry, and then that'll help.

So we really appreciate that. Endabortionnow .com. Well, I want to thank you so much,

Marcus, for being our guest today. Even though you were traveling out for the holidays to California, we appreciate you taking this time out of your schedule to be with us.

I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write in questions. And I hope you all have a very safe and blessed and happy weekend and a joyful Christmas and a very wonderful, safe, and God -honoring new year.

And I hope you have a great weekend as well and a great Lord's Day that is filled with the joy of the

Holy Spirit as you worship and honor our God. I hope that you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater