Is Utopia Coming?

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Is the utopian future depicted in shows like Star Trek really something we should all be hoping for? That's what we're going to talk about today on Conversations with a Calvinist, which begins right now.

00:29

And welcome back to Conversations with a Calvinist.

00:31

My name is Keith Bosky, and I am a Calvinist.

00:34

And I am welcoming today again to the studio, Uncle Rich, the Muffin Man.

00:38

He is here with me today, and I'm excited.

00:40

Thank you for being here with me, Uncle Rich.

00:42

No problem, brother.

00:44

I'm stepping in on short notice.

00:46

That is.

00:47

That's right.

00:47

This is a short notice episode.

00:49

We had a person scheduled for this week who had to reschedule, so Richard has graciously jumped in.

00:55

And we're going to be talking about a subject that we actually discussed doing several weeks ago.

01:00

Actually- Months ago, six months.

01:01

Almost a year ago now.

01:02

We talked about doing this, and that is the question of talking about, we had mentioned, we were doing a show about- Orwell.

01:10

George Orwell.

01:11

Right.

01:11

And we talked about how George Orwell had a picture of the world that was dystopian, and that there were other fantasy movies and TV shows and things that give a utopian future.

01:23

And you mentioned Star Trek as your favorite, and I'm going to have you explain what that is in a minute for those who don't know what Star Trek is.

01:30

I'm pretty sure most people know what Star Trek is.

01:32

I know that.

01:33

We're going to talk about why, though, it matters for this.

01:36

And we're going to talk about whether or not utopia ever will come.

01:40

And this sort of is based on something that I did, and now we're looking at 15 years ago, because 2008 is 15 years ago, 16 years ago.

01:49

Is it? 15.

01:51

15, yeah.

01:51

I'm real bad at math.

01:53

I wrote a paper called Why Utopia Will Never Come, and we're going to be talking a little bit about my paper as well because I made some points about the nature of man and how the human utopia that people are often going after really is a human expression of the heaven that God has promised for those who believe in Christ, and how human endeavors to try to find utopia here really are not ever going to really happen.

02:23

That was my argument in the paper, and again, it's 15 years ago.

02:25

I'm not saying everything I said was correct, but that's sort of what draws us into today's conversation.

02:30

Now it's time for this week's giveaway, and what we're giving away this time is our two Reformation Study Bibles.

02:37

On last week's program, we had you guys send in through YouTube the story of how you met your spouse, and we said this was going to be a Valentine's Day gift, and so all of the people who sent in how they met their spouse is on these sheets of paper.

02:51

There's several names per page, and I've been sitting here mixing these up, and Uncle Rich is going to choose a number one to four.

02:57

Two.

02:58

He's going to choose the number two, and now I'm going to ask him to reach into these sheets and grab whichever one he would like.

03:04

Just reach in and grab one, please.

03:07

Oh, there you go.

03:09

Got it.

03:10

And he is going to tell us which name now is pulled at random has won, and again, this is donated by Ryan Dubia, one of our listeners, and he's going to ship it to you.

03:21

Tell us the name of our winner.

03:23

Second one down is Julie Six.

03:27

Julie Six, okay.

03:28

Who says she met her husband through a local Christian dating service called Match Made in Heaven.

03:33

It's not there anymore.

03:34

We met and married in seven months.

03:35

We've been married 20 years in July.

03:37

So Julie Six is your winner.

03:40

Awesome.

03:41

Awesome.

03:41

Thank you.

03:42

So Julie Six, I will be contacting you, letting you know that you're the winner of the two Reformation Study Bibles, and I hope that you enjoy them.

03:50

And I want to say to you and to all of our listeners, Happy Valentine's Day, and hope you enjoy it with your significant other.

03:57

All right, my friend.

03:58

Well, now we're going to move on to our next part of the program.

04:01

One of my favorite parts that we've been doing, and that is my new game.

04:10

Now, National Treasure is a new game.

04:13

I created this game.

04:14

And what this is, is I am going to give you a pop culture icon.

04:19

Someone that I think has some type of significance in our pop culture zeitgeist.

04:26

Gotcha.

04:27

And you have to try to pick why you think I chose the person.

04:33

Gotcha.

04:33

So again, and this all is based on, for those who don't know and didn't see the program with me and Adam, this is based on something that happened with my kids.

04:39

One day I'm sitting in my living room, and I said something to my kids about Tom Selleck.

04:44

And my children, God bless them, my children said, who is Tom Selleck? And I was, I know, I said, I said, Tom Selleck, you don't know Tom Selleck? Yeah, I said, no, I said, you don't know Tom Selleck? No, we don't know Tom Selleck.

05:03

And I said, that guy's a national treasure.

05:05

So that's where I came up with the name of the game.

05:07

And I created this game and we've been playing it in my house ever since.

05:10

So it's just a fun game.

05:11

And it's sort of like apples to apples, because I have a reason for picking who I pick.

05:16

And so you have to, your job is not to tell me why you would pick them.

05:19

Your job is to guess why I would pick them.

05:22

And so this is not going to be as fun with guests who don't know me very well.

05:27

But Adam did well.

05:29

He picked all three.

05:30

And Adam didn't understand the game until the third question.

05:32

That's what's amazing.

05:35

All right.

05:36

So I'm going to pick someone that I would say is a national treasure.

05:42

Now, these people don't have to be genuine national treasures.

05:45

There's just got to be somebody that's in the pop culture reality.

05:49

And hopefully it'll be someone that you know.

05:52

Okay.

05:52

So I'm going to pick somebody that really, this is going to be hard.

05:55

I'm choosing this because it's you.

05:58

I wouldn't do this to a normal guest, but you, my friend, if anything, have proven yourself to be abnormal.

06:03

Okay.

06:03

Thank you.

06:04

No, absolutely.

06:06

All right, my friend, the name, John Cryer.

06:13

Okay.

06:13

John Cryer.

06:14

Is he from, um, oh no.

06:16

I'm the name pops up in my head.

06:19

Is he the one with, uh, it was in Charlie, with the, the two, I can't think of the name of the show.

06:24

You're thinking two and a half minutes.

06:25

No, that is not the reason why I picked John.

06:27

No, I'm just saying John Cryer.

06:28

That's the actor, right? He played opposite Charlie Sheen.

06:32

John Cryer made his mark in a much different decade for me.

06:38

Not, not, uh, not that the show that you're talking about that show that you're talking about has a little sketchy.

06:44

Yeah.

06:44

I wouldn't recommend very sketchy actually.

06:47

Um, so unfortunately, brother, I'm not familiar with a whole lot of John Cryer's work.

06:53

So it's gotta be some knowing you, it's gotta be some eighties pop something movie he was in or that you think's funny or is a classic or you're pulling something up.

07:09

I'm pulling up.

07:10

I can't, I can't 16 candles.

07:13

Uh, yeah.

07:15

See, I ain't even seen that.

07:16

So come on, man.

07:18

Come on, man.

07:19

It's not 16 candles.

07:21

He played ducky, ducky, ducky, and pretty in pink, pretty in pink.

07:26

See, I never seen that either.

07:27

It's, uh, he, he's, he's the best friend of the girl, the, the love interest of the movie.

07:33

And he, and he's desperately in love with her, but she, but he's in the friend zone.

07:38

So he's friends and that, that, that, I mean, first of all, I feel him.

07:44

It's like ducky is here.

07:46

It's like, we know, I may need to watch it now.

07:49

Cause I'd be right there with him there, brother.

07:51

Know what it's Yeah.

07:52

So, so again, uh, that, that just is honestly, I, I will tell you what I love John Cryer in though.

08:00

That's not that John Cryer played in Superman four as the nephew of Lex Luthor named Lenny, Lenny.

08:14

He, he plays a punk rocker who just talks with that punk rock, like, this rocks, you know, like he's so stiff.

08:22

He was, he was Keanu Reeves before Keanu Reeves was Keanu Reeves part of the movie is when Lex Luthor, first of all, not people may not realize Lex Luthor was an advocate of homeschooling because he says in the movie, he says, Lenny, you pathetic product of the public school system.

08:43

Gene Hackman was the best Lex Luthor ever.

08:46

And if any, if anybody ever plays this game, if I ever pull up Gene Hackman, it will be because of like, so they're not unforgiven, not Hoosiers, but Lex Luthor.

08:56

See that, that what you just said right there, that's where my mom was going.

08:59

There was some, he had some role that was secondary.

09:04

I'm just not what the Superman for, you know, that that's, that's where your mind goes.

09:09

So I was half right.

09:10

So anyway, no, no, you, you, you got it to the decade.

09:13

You were correct.

09:14

You got to the decade.

09:15

All right.

09:15

So that again is what we call.

09:18

Oh, it's just one question today.

09:20

No, but yeah.

09:20

Yeah.

09:21

Okay.

09:21

Yeah.

09:22

The one Adams was an initial, I wanted to teach people how to do the game.

09:25

Now it's just me one person and tell me why that person is a national treasure.

09:32

So now we move on to the main topic of the show.

09:34

And today we're going to be talking about the subject of utopia.

09:37

And as I said, at the beginning of the program, what brought this up is the question of will utopia ever come? And in 2008, I wrote a paper.

09:46

Uh, it was for my, uh, lib three 20 class.

09:50

I still have it here.

09:52

My professor was professor Rick Chaffee.

09:54

So Rick, if you're watching, I doubt it.

09:57

Oh, he pronounced it Chaffee.

09:58

Cause I would call that Chaffee.

09:59

But anyway.

09:59

Oh, well, you're probably right.

10:02

I, uh, why utopia may never come.

10:05

This was a paper I wrote and, uh, I wanted to read the first paragraph and, and, and it, this is how I, how I began the, the paper.

10:14

If any two men desire the same thing, which nevertheless they cannot both enjoy, they become enemies.

10:19

Now that was a quote from our book.

10:22

And I thought it was a good, a good way to describe what, what causes most human conflict.

10:29

Two people want the same thing, whether it be the same property, the same riches, same woman, right? The two people want the same thing.

10:38

And those two people can't both enjoy that thing at the same time.

10:41

They can't both have it.

10:43

And therefore by nature, they become enemies.

10:46

And I thought that that's reasonable.

10:47

And one of the reasons why in a simplest term, I would say utopia will probably not ever come in the, in the sense, because there will always be, there will always be a limited number of goods and things that we can enjoy.

11:01

And, uh, people like right now, there's a war going on between Russia and Ukraine over, over, you know, land and power and who gets to seize the power.

11:10

And, and so, but it goes on to say this, it's, uh, another, another quote, war is natural.

11:15

Peace is an accident.

11:17

We can start a war in five minutes, but it takes hundreds of years to make peace.

11:22

And, uh, the last quote I have, I started with the several quotes, but I quote from Isaiah chapter 50 verse eight, which says the way of peace they have not known.

11:30

There is no justice in their ways.

11:32

They have made themselves crooked paths.

11:34

Whoever takes that way shall not know peace.

11:38

And that's Isaiah chapter 50 verse eight, the way of peace they have not known.

11:43

So really my argument in the paper was because the question of the class, you know, it was dealing with sociology and, and, and, and wars and things like that.

11:53

And I was saying, basically, these are things we're going to experience until the end of time.

11:57

And, uh, there are those who believe that human beings can create a utopia and some have even described it in fictional terms.

12:06

And that is where you're going to come in, Richard.

12:08

I'm going to turn the screen over to you.

12:09

You're going to get a hundred percent of the screen here to describe to us.

12:12

What is this little thing called Star Trek? And why is Gene Roddenberry a cult leader? Well, I, I grew up on Star Trek and, uh, it's just basically it's set in the 24th.

12:27

Well, it depends on if you're watching the old school one that was with Captain Kirk and Spock and all those guys.

12:34

And you know, the sixties, which my mom watched daily.

12:37

I mean, I've seen every episode and, uh, basically it's this, this, they've reached this level where at least humanity has, where there's no more money.

12:50

There's no more conflict.

12:52

Everybody doesn't, you don't really, I guess you would own stuff, but it didn't matter so to speak.

12:57

Um, but everything was taken.

12:59

Everything was, everything was good.

13:01

You've gotten past all these moral ills, I guess you would say.

13:05

And you don't really see a whole lot of that in, in the old series, but in TNG, the next generation, they talk more about that because the next generation actually took a little, it was like politically correct before politically correct.

13:19

Yeah.

13:20

Like in the, in the opening line where it says space, the final frontier, and it gives the whole thing.

13:25

And it says boldly go where in the sixties, he said, no man has gone before.

13:28

Well, TNG changed it to no one has gone before because we have to be all inclusive anyway.

13:34

Um, it's like the Bibles where they take out the pronouns.

13:37

Yep.

13:37

There you go.

13:38

Everything gender neutral, even God.

13:40

Right.

13:40

Yeah.

13:41

Yeah.

13:41

So anyhow, it's a, it's utopian in the sense of everybody.

13:46

There's no more monetary value.

13:48

There's no money.

13:49

There's no, uh, property you work for the sake of the enjoyment of work.

13:54

I mean, that's, that's just, I'm just saying, but I have to just say this in the movie, back to the future three, doc Brown is trying to describe the future.

14:09

And he says, we have automobiles that take us where we want to go.

14:13

And this guy said, well, if you got these auto, what's the census? Does anybody run anymore? And he says, yes, but they run for recreation.

14:22

They run for fun.

14:23

He's a run for fun.

14:24

What kind of fun is that? So when you said people work for fun, well, I didn't say they work for fun.

14:32

They work for the gratification.

14:34

You get out of a job.

14:35

Well done because you're not getting paid to do it.

14:37

I guess like you go to star fleet to where you can get your position on a ship so you can go and travel, but you're working.

14:45

I mean, it's, it's work.

14:46

You're, depending on what level you're in.

14:50

So that's the idea is everything's, everything's good.

14:54

Everything's.

14:55

And I mean, they got things like replicators, like literally, I don't know how many times in the show you'll, you'll be in John Luke's, uh, Picard's office or chambers, whatever you want to call it.

15:07

Quarters.

15:08

That's what they call them.

15:08

Quarters.

15:09

I hadn't watched it in a long time, but he walks up to the replicator Earl gray, hot and, and it pops right up and he drinks his, he drinks his tea.

15:18

You know, you want to, you want spaghetti meatballs.

15:20

There was one episode where this old country boy, I think they got him from the, he came from the past or something somehow he ended up there.

15:25

And he's like, you think you can make grandma's steak and potatoes or some, something like that.

15:29

And it, he gave it the recipe and it made it for him.

15:33

I mean, it's just, so when you got everything at your fingertips is, you know, and everything's provided for, and there's no money and nobody's fighting over anything.

15:41

That's the ideas.

15:43

Everything's equal.

15:45

Everything's everybody has the same opportunity to have the same stuff and nobody's fighting over anything.

15:50

Yeah, I do.

15:51

I want to make a mention of something because just in case anyone ever, uh, makes the connection and, and, and certainly if anybody did, it would be fine.

15:58

There was a, uh, there was a web show that came out a few years ago, um, uh, called after hours.

16:05

That was the name of the show.

16:07

And they would do, it was four people who taught pop culture and one of the, uh, one of their episodes, they, they said the joke I made earlier about Jean, Gene Roddenberry is a cult leader.

16:18

And they brought up the, the thing that you just said about the replicator.

16:24

What's interesting about that is they said, you know, if you have everything for you produced for you and you don't have to work for anything, how can you be, you know, so long motivation, so long, you know, work ethic or any of that.

16:40

And, and of course, you know, somebody could argue, well, what's heaven going to be like, you know, for, you know, for Christians.

16:45

And I, for one, I believe that heaven, we are actually going to have occupation in heaven.

16:50

That's a whole other conversation.

16:51

I don't think heaven is going to be a sitting on clouds, strumming harps.

16:54

In fact, I know that's not what it's going to be.

16:56

Scripture tells us there's a new heaven and a new earth.

16:58

And it describes the, the new heaven and the new earth and physical qualities, not, not just, you know, an ethereal, out of body place where we sit on a cloud, you know, again, strumming a harp.

17:10

So we, we would agree that there is a utopia coming.

17:16

Utopia is God's garden.

17:19

It's God's Eden.

17:20

It's what, it's what's been redeemed better than Eden, because God has, is, is going to, to redeem what was lost.

17:27

Right.

17:28

And the reason it will be a utopia is because of the one element that you address in the paper, in your paper.

17:35

And I was, you know, my mind was already there before I read your paper that you sent to me that you wrote 15 years ago, was there will be no sin to corrupt any of it.

17:43

That's right.

17:44

Because even if you go to the Star Trek world and I'm based in the, I'm based in my comments off Star Trek, based on a conversation, I think either Picard or Troy had with somebody who was in like another, another race, another alien culture, they were in all kinds of conflict and all this kind of stuff.

18:01

And he, they asked the question, well, why do y'all not have these problems? And they said, we've, we've developed and matured beyond those kinds of issues to where we're at peace and what his other alien cultures are, you know, at war, even the Klingons are constantly on the brink of civil war.

18:19

So it's just the humanity that's reached this utopia.

18:21

No one else really has.

18:24

But even in the show, even in between the, the members of Star Trek, the members of the Starship Enterprise, there's conflict, there's aggravation that there was, you got Warf the Klingon, you got Troy, who's like the beta Zed and you got Riker who's number two and Troy and Riker won't, I mean, Riker and Warf won't Troy and they're at odds with each other over a woman.

18:51

Where's the utopia there? There's still, there's still conflict.

18:55

There's still, like you said, what one man wants and another man can't have, there's going to be a fight over.

19:00

Yeah.

19:00

So they really haven't evolved past based desires.

19:05

Like you said, I mean, I've seen, I've never seen the show.

19:12

I've seen every episode and every movie, even the new ones.

19:15

Now I did see, I saw the movie.

19:18

Please get quick on my camera.

19:20

My bad, dude.

19:21

I got big feet.

19:22

I see my camera doing this.

19:23

People at home are going to be like, they watching the show like the Knight of the Rocks.

19:29

No, but okay.

19:30

So.

19:32

You never seen the show, but you saw one of the movies? Well, I saw the newer movies and I think I saw the one about the whales.

19:39

Yeah, that was, that was the old, the old guy.

19:41

That's where, that's where the dude's acting up on the bus.

19:45

They went back in time, right? And he chows, he ninja chops him.

19:52

He don't ninja chop him.

19:54

He does, he does the Vulcan nerve punch.

19:57

Here's going to be a, here's going to be a deep cut, but only for certain members of my audience.

20:02

He George Dilmond him.

20:03

And if you don't know what that means, that's a karate reference.

20:07

He touched him, dude fell asleep.

20:09

Yes.

20:09

He did the Vulcan nerve pinch.

20:10

All right.

20:11

So, but no, I don't know any, I don't know the show.

20:14

Like I said, it's not because I didn't like the show.

20:17

I was, I was a superhero nerd.

20:22

So people say, Oh, which is better? Star Wars, Star Wars or Star Trek.

20:24

I was like Batman.

20:28

That is better.

20:29

And Batman don't have no utopia.

20:32

No man's the world's always bad.

20:33

Yes.

20:34

And that's why he's here.

20:35

Right.

20:35

Yeah.

20:36

So the only reason I know it's because I grew up on it.

20:40

I mean, my mom had bookshelves of the novels and she'd read every one of them.

20:44

She was like obsessed with it.

20:46

Wow.

20:46

Now, if I hadn't, if my mom wasn't a Star Trek fan, I'd never watch show either.

20:51

But after you're, after you're exposed to it, it's like you grow to like it.

20:55

Well, like I said, I'm not, I'm not, dude, I like, I mean, the guys I watch are in tights.

21:01

I'm not challenging you and calling you out.

21:04

I'm saying it's, it's cool.

21:05

I like it when people have their thing, right? You know, like I'm an eighties guy.

21:09

That's my thing.

21:10

You know, I like certain, I like certain aspects.

21:13

I like back to the future favorite.

21:15

Yeah.

21:15

I've mentioned that earlier, but getting back to the utopia thing and back to sort of the heart of this issue is, is man's nature is such that our, our sinful nature seems to be pushing opposed to the idea of any type of utopia rather than toward it.

21:32

But there is a theological position and I don't mean to come out of left field with this.

21:37

And I don't want to start a civil war on my page.

21:40

So right now, let me, I'm going to switch to me real quick.

21:44

I'm going to plead and beg that all of my post-millennial listeners do not freak out for the next few minutes of this conversation.

21:57

Fair enough.

21:58

Because as many people know, I am an amillennialist, but I am what sometimes is referred to as an optimistic amillennialist in that I believe that there are areas where Christianity can and will flourish in the future.

22:23

Post-millennialists tend to be much more optimistic and say it must flourish.

22:28

And that's what the millennium is, is the, is the flourishing of Christianity.

22:32

And, and, and, and I like this idea.

22:36

The idea that what if we are still in the early church? What if there is still 10,000 years of church history? Because if that's the truth, we could still have, we could have three more Reformations.

22:53

We could have, you know, three more, you know, Wittenberg moments.

22:58

And, and, and wouldn't it be nice right now if somebody wrote up 95 theses against Bethel and went and nailed it to that church? I mean, seriously, and it mattered.

23:06

Right.

23:06

If somebody did that today, it'd be like a message board on a post in a Twitter feed, and it would get lost in the shuffle of all the information that's passed around.

23:15

It would, it would do very little.

23:17

Right.

23:17

But in 1517, when 95 theses were nailed, it made a difference.

23:21

Well, what if something else came along and made a difference? And there was a giant leap forward for the Gospel, and there was another Great Awakening.

23:31

And that's the idea behind postmillennialism is, is that, you know, that we, we, we, we see these advances, and we trust that God's going to continue to give these advances.

23:44

And so where I find myself, and I know I'm kind of, like I said, coming out of left field, hope I'm not, you know, throwing off, kind of going away from the subject, but I think this is part of it.

23:54

And the issue is, is, is, is, is postmillennialism saying that there's a utopia coming? I'm not really sure that's what they're saying.

24:03

And what, what, do you have much experience with this, with the postmillennial side? Do you got anybody in your church that holds this position or? I'm not sure.

24:12

I think my, my pastor, Cody Falls, born in a millennial camp like you do.

24:17

I think he's mentioned that from, from the pulpit.

24:20

I think my brother Hank's postmill, or was at one time.

24:25

Going back to Cody, I want to, I want to give him props.

24:27

If you are correct, and he has said that from the pulpit, God bless him.

24:32

Because in a, in a small Southern Baptist church, which yours is bigger than our church, in a mid-sized Southern Baptist church, to even, even say you're not pre-trib, pre-mill, is a big deal.

24:44

Oh, and, and to give him more props, he was preaching from Matthew 24, and he held a position that these things took place in 80, 70.

24:51

See that, that's a partial preteristic view.

24:54

Right.

24:54

Of it, which, which that's where I'm at.

24:56

Partial preterism, uh, on millennials.

24:58

And again, I'm going to get, I'm going to get messages on this.

25:00

There's people are going to leave.

25:01

People are typing the comments as we speak.

25:06

But that's what I'm saying is he, this is, this is how he views the text.

25:09

It's when he understands what to say.

25:10

And so he preached it that way.

25:11

And he said, now he did preface and say, now there's going to be y'all that's not going to agree with this.

25:15

And we can all still cohabitate.

25:18

But I had to bring the word to you the way I believe it to be.

25:21

So you say your brother, Hank, who is a good friend of mine and good, and obviously a good friend of yours.

25:26

He's your brother.

25:27

He's my brother.

25:28

You've known him for a little while.

25:30

You know, I did his wedding.

25:31

So I feel, uh, feel like we have a kinship there.

25:33

You say he has a, uh, uh, potentially his post mill.

25:38

Yeah, I remember there was a time where he, he was in that, in that, uh, that camp or position.

25:44

Yeah, definitely.

25:45

Um, but I don't know if he's changed since then.

25:48

I mean, what's interesting about the post mill position is I see a lot of it coming out of, um, the Jeff Durbin, uh, and, uh, Doug Wilson groups.

26:01

Jeff Durbin has apology at church in Arizona.

26:04

And, uh, Doug Wilson has, uh, uh, Christ, Christ church, Christ reformed church in, uh, in, um, Idaho, Moscow, Idaho.

26:14

And both of those guys teach a post-millennial perspective.

26:20

And I see it becoming more and more popular now.

26:22

Um, like I said, I'm not there.

26:25

I've had people ask me, you know, why, why aren't you there? Even my wife, you know, one time I remember coming home.

26:30

This is a funny story.

26:31

Uh, I came home from work one day and she goes, uh, why aren't we post mill? And of all the questions you expect to get when you walk in the door, you know, how was your day? Nope.

26:45

Did you, did you have a good day, honey? Nope.

26:49

I didn't get that.

26:50

Let's just get in the weeds right off the bat.

26:52

It was, well, I listened to Jeff Durbin explain post-millennialism on, on Allie Best.

26:59

Oh, you listened to Jeff Durbin.

27:01

Oh, well, okay.

27:02

I was like, well, did you listen to conversation with a Calvinist? Cause it hurts.

27:07

If the answer is no, no, I mean, I love, I, I will say this.

27:12

I think Jeff Durbin is an important voice in our time.

27:15

I think he's a wonderful pastor.

27:16

He does a lot of good things.

27:18

So, uh, and, but he was on Allie Best Stuckey.

27:21

Okay.

27:21

Which is a show.

27:22

My wife likes her.

27:23

She listens to her, read some of her books.

27:25

And he was describing the, the difference between post-mill and pre-mill in the sense of how we see the future.

27:36

Because his, his argument, if I remember correctly, and again, I listened to the podcast too, because when your wife nails you, when you, as soon as you walk through the door, why aren't you post-mill? I'm like, what you been listening to? Why are you, why is this, why is this dinner conversation? But you want to know what, you know, okay.

27:52

What, what is it she listened to? You want to get, get, kind of get involved with it.

27:56

And his argument essentially was, um, that one of the things that led him away from pre-mill was the, the, the apt, absolute pessimism of, of it is that it, that it's the idea was, you know, we're, we're, we're, you know, the, the world's going to hell in a handbasket.

28:13

Just let the world go to hell in a handbasket.

28:16

Don't, don't try to engage, just batten down the hatches and get ready for the rapture, you know, or if you're a, if you're not a pre-trib guy, batten down the hatches and get ready for the tribulation.

28:26

Either way, you know, you're basically rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic anyway.

28:33

So why does it matter? Right.

28:34

And, and, and I do think what I just said, again, I've got dispensationalists who listen to this and I've got pre-millennialists who listen to this.

28:42

Guys, I understand.

28:44

I'm not, I'm not saying that's exactly what Jeff said and I'm not saying that's what I believe.

28:47

I am saying that is a, that is a attitude that can be drawn.

28:52

If, if people think the battle's already lost, that everything's going to go to hell anyway, why bat, why fight the battle? That's, that's, that's the attitude.

29:00

And again, for, for Jeff, he was saying he felt that post-millennialism provided more of an optimistic view because again, the idea is that Christ will return to a world that has been converted, not completely, but has been converted to Christ on, on a large scale.

29:19

Okay.

29:20

And so you can see how going back to the, to the time of when the Advent, Adventist movements were, were really raising up during the 1800s, you can see how that would be, how people would believe that because you've got the great awakening happening and you've got the, you know, all of these, all of these new things are taking place and, and people are saying, this is the end.

29:43

This is, this is, Jesus is going to come.

29:45

This wonderful new thing has happened and, and people are being converted, you know, on, in, in, in mass.

29:52

Right.

29:53

So then we go through two world wars, you know, two atomic bomb blasts, and many people begin to see the world differently after those events because the attitude becomes, well, maybe, maybe it wasn't, maybe the great awakening wasn't the end.

30:17

Maybe that wasn't the, the, the, the great event.

30:19

And so, and then the Jews returned to Jerusalem or to Israel in the 40s, that sparks a huge eschatological idea, especially among those who, who are dispensational and see a future for ethnic Israel.

30:38

And you don't have to be dispensational and see a future for ethnic Israel, but that, but that, you know, those who are counting on a future for ethnic Israel as part of their eschatology, they see the Jews returning to Israel as a big deal.

30:51

So again, all of this comes back to eschatology, right? This whole idea of utopia.

30:58

Now you said we were talking outside of the program that you're, you're not nailed down where you are.

31:04

Right.

31:04

I, I haven't spent a lot of time with, with eschatology.

31:07

I've, you know, I've, I've been exposed to dispensationalism enough that I don't agree with that because, and I'm sorry for those who are going to write comments after I say this, but the exegetical gymnastics you have to play with dispensationalism to make it work just doesn't work for me.

31:23

And Hebrews just doesn't work for me.

31:26

You know, Christ reinstituting sacrifice and stuff like that kind of, that bothers me.

31:30

Well, that's, that's a premillennial view.

31:33

Okay.

31:34

And I'm not, not necessarily correcting you.

31:36

You're right.

31:36

Because dispensationalism is premillennial.

31:38

Okay.

31:38

Okay.

31:39

So dispensationalism though is a holistic view of the whole Bible.

31:44

Right.

31:44

All happens in certain dispensations.

31:46

Which distinguishes between Israel and the church.

31:49

Making that.

31:50

And that's the other reason I don't agree with them because we're spiritual Israel.

31:53

So there's no, there's no, um, separation.

31:57

Again, it's unclerich at email.com.

32:01

Everybody, because what you just said, even that phrase, when you say we are spiritual Israel, you, you say it with such gravitas.

32:08

Well, I'm just saying, I believe that's what Scripture says.

32:11

So that whole, that whole thing, you would be surprised how many churches you would get.

32:18

Um, I mean.

32:19

Run out of town.

32:20

I got it.

32:20

You would, you, you, if, if nothing else, they would want clarification.

32:25

What do you mean we're spiritual Israel? You know? But anyway, and so, yeah.

32:28

But beyond dispensationalism, I haven't really jumped into any of it and nailed down something because honestly, and this is just, this is just my personal opinion on it is, is Christ is coming back and we need to be ready and preach the gospel till you die.

32:48

I mean, that's because when you get into those, I know eschatology has an importance and it's necessary.

32:57

I'm not discrediting it.

32:58

You don't need to study it.

32:59

I understand it's important.

33:01

But it's when, once you nail down a position and you stand on that podium, now let's fight because you are, I mean, you had to preface this section with saying, please don't blow up my comment section with a holy war.

33:15

That's right.

33:16

So, I mean, it's just, um, it's, it's one thing when you're fighting about the gospel itself.

33:21

It's another thing when you're fighting about, well, which one's right on when is Christ going to come back in a thousand year reign? Or is he not? Or is it just going to, I don't have time for that.

33:30

Yeah.

33:31

Well, it's interesting.

33:33

And I, I hold a particular eschatological viewpoint, but I don't, I hold it with a loose hand.

33:39

And I tell people that, you know, people who come to the church, I say, if you're coming here looking for eschatological certainty, then you really just, you won't be happy here.

33:50

Right.

33:50

You know, uh, we, we, all of our elders are basically in the same place on our eschatology.

33:55

That's one nicety is we don't have a bunch of division among the elders.

34:00

We all basically hold to a, um, partial preteristic understanding of revelation and non-millennial view, which again, we say optimistic non-millennialism, which could tip toe into post-millennialism a little bit.

34:12

Um, so somebody who's post-mill could probably come here and be very comfortable.

34:15

Um, pre-mill, if somebody's dedicated to pre-mill, they may not be happy here because we never talk about it very much.

34:21

Um, but I, I wouldn't say it should ever keep anybody from membership.

34:24

Right.

34:24

Our, our one finite rule or not finite or one final rule on eschatology when it comes to membership is you have to agree that Christ is going to return.

34:35

Right.

34:36

Right.

34:37

And this takes us back to, and I do want to get back to the original topic at hand, and that's the topic of utopia because Christ's return, whether we're post-mill, on-mill, pre-mill, whatever, Christ's return is what ushers in the kingdom and the final state.

34:52

And again, I guess it does matter because pre-millennialism would say it ushers in a thousand year reign and then it's the final state.

34:57

Right.

34:58

But if we hold to an on-mill or post-mill perspective, Christ's return ushers in the eternal state and the eternal state is the only utopia that we have to really hope for in the sense of absolute and no more, as Revelation 21 says, no more tears, no more hatred, no more fighting, all of that is done away with.

35:25

And that's the thing that when we look at, again, going back to Star Trek, going back to, and what's some other shows? Maybe it's a good question.

35:35

What's some other shows that have tried to propose a, and in the comments, all right, we'll ask the commenters.

35:41

Because I don't really...

35:41

Yeah, yeah.

35:42

What are some other shows that have put out the idea of a utopian future? Because a lot of stuff's dystopian.

35:48

Right.

35:48

Your Book of Eli, your, wow, goodness.

35:52

Even Walking Dead's that way.

35:54

Yeah.

35:54

All of these shows about zombies and stuff, Zombieland, or not Zombieland, World War Z, all these movies are about a dystopian future.

36:03

Right.

36:04

Which...

36:05

Everything falls apart.

36:06

Yeah.

36:06

Waterworld.

36:09

I mean, we can go back to 1984, the movie.

36:12

Yeah.

36:12

It's all a dystopian future.

36:14

So the question becomes, how many movies portray a positive? And again, I think Star Trek is it.

36:23

I can't think of one, but maybe somebody else will put out an idea.

36:27

Yeah, nothing comes to mind unless it's some kind of spoofer, maybe.

36:31

But even Star Trek, like we said before, has its problems.

36:34

It's not fully...

36:36

Because it's like only Humanity's made it.

36:39

Because every other race they run into for the majority are jacked up.

36:43

Yeah.

36:43

They have their problems.

36:44

But even Humanity, like you said, every...

36:48

They've got the...

36:49

Again, I haven't seen the show, but I know a few things.

36:52

Right? They've got the Prime Directive, which is that they're not supposed to interfere with other...

36:59

Well, Prime Directive is that you don't interfere with other races who haven't technologically advanced.

37:03

They're behind you.

37:04

But how many times do they break the Prime Directive? They have.

37:07

Like all the time.

37:08

They have.

37:08

Yeah.

37:09

Okay.

37:09

There's an episode in The Next Generation where they did it by accident.

37:15

They were...

37:15

Accident.

37:16

Well, they were supposedly monitoring them.

37:21

And then somehow or another...

37:24

Well, one of the movies is that way.

37:25

Right.

37:26

Well, yeah, one of the movies is like he...

37:28

Chris Pine.

37:29

They did it on purpose.

37:32

Because Spot was about to die in the volcano.

37:35

And so they raised the ship up out of the ocean and was shot over there and picked him up.

37:40

And everybody saw him.

37:41

And they started drawing pictures in the sand of the ship.

37:43

They saw there's a violet because they didn't let Spot die.

37:46

Prime Directive says Spot should have died.

37:49

Yeah.

37:49

To preserve this alien group of people from witnessing this starship that was well beyond their technology.

37:58

They were tribal.

37:59

So anyway.

38:00

Well, the reason why I bring up...

38:01

There's so few utopian movies.

38:03

Right.

38:03

Utopian TV shows.

38:05

Again, there's plenty of dystopian.

38:07

We can go down the list.

38:09

That's what we know.

38:11

But do you think it is because we know inherently that left to ourselves, we're not going in that direction? Well, I was thinking about that before is we're striving for that, which we can't get on our own, which also, in my mind, points to the existence of God.

38:36

Because we want that perfection.

38:39

We want where everybody's on equal playing field.

38:41

We want where everybody has equal everything and there's no more fighting and envy and hatred and lust and all those things are out the window.

38:51

I mean, we look in the American culture today, what is all this social equality stuff? Everybody's got to be on the equal playing field.

38:57

That's right.

38:58

And they look to the government as the God that's going to give them all this.

39:03

They're going to make everything equal.

39:04

Just give the government all the money and they'll equally distribute it among the people and everybody will have the same and there'll be no more fighting.

39:10

Well, there's a problem with that because you're not going to get to that utopia because as the premise from your paper said, well, one man has, another man wants.

39:19

It should have been an award winning essay.

39:21

It might be so.

39:23

But from one person wants it, another person doesn't have it.

39:26

Well, okay.

39:27

Well, you start distributing wealth.

39:30

Well, the people that have the wealth don't want to give it up and the people that don't have the wealth want it.

39:36

So where's the utopia in that where you strip a man from everything he has to give to a man who hasn't earned it? You don't get the utopia that way because you're going to make somebody angry.

39:49

We could have another hour long conversation about this is the real desire if you listen to those who are pushing for communism, socialism, things like this, is you'll only be happy when you don't own anything.

40:04

You'll only be happy when you're not trying to achieve.

40:11

I remember a family member, I won't mention name or anything, but there was a family member growing up who said she was a communist.

40:19

She said she was a communist while wearing her $200 tennis shoes and carrying her backpack, which had all of her communist logos on it with her very expensive laptop inside that was made in China.

40:31

$100,000 iPhone in her pocket.

40:33

Yeah, and it's such a...

40:36

Because when we all become communists, we'll all share everything.

40:40

Yeah, the problem is we'll all share poverty, we'll all share the bread lines, we'll all share the gas lines.

40:45

And again, this is where my paper was driving towards is that, and we talked about 1984, or did we talk about Animal Farm? We talked about 1984, you ended with Animal Farm.

41:00

Animal Farm is to me one of the...

41:02

If people haven't read it.

41:03

Right.

41:04

And again, goes back to the idea that what happens when you put power in the hands of a few with the trust that they're going to treat you right and they're going to do the right thing, and there's no checks and balances, they get to decide what's best for you.

41:17

You end up all of the animals around the house looking in while the pigs have dinner with the humans laughing at all the other animals.

41:26

And that's what we end up seeing.

41:28

And going back to this, the striving for utopia, okay, and tying Star Trek back in with it.

41:36

Roddenberry's vision was of a world where there was no more want, need, or anything like that, and everybody was equal and everybody was provided for, and you worked for the sake of work, for the satisfaction of work.

41:48

Okay, well, let's go back.

41:49

Let's go to work for a moment.

41:50

And I'm glad my pastor brought this up Sunday.

41:54

Work was given before the fall.

41:58

That's right.

41:58

Work will be in heaven.

42:00

We'll have stuff to do, but it won't be marred by sin.

42:05

See, Roddenberry wanted this idea of utopia.

42:07

He wanted to get there without God.

42:08

The problem is, we're not going to get to that state without God's intervention.

42:16

That's right.

42:16

And fortunately, God has intervened in the person of Jesus Christ, and since he's intervened in the person of Christ, and through faith and repentance, you can then be adopted into the family of God.

42:26

You have a hope of the utopia we're talking about, where work isn't with thorns and thistles, but it's just valued for what it is, because it's done without the burden of sin upon our shoulders.

42:38

And we get to worship in a way we can't worship now.

42:42

Our worship won't be incomplete, and we'll have everything we'll ever need.

42:48

I mean, you think about the marriage, supper, and the lamb.

42:49

You think you've had a good feast here? Yeah, exactly.

42:52

Wait till then, and it's going to be in abundance, and nobody will want for anything.

42:57

All sin, all pain, all hurt, all tears, all things will be wiped away because of what God has done in Christ.

43:04

See, everybody wants utopia, but you're not going to get there this side of heaven.

43:08

It's not going to happen.

43:09

The only way it happens is that you become adopted into the family of God through faith in Jesus Christ, so that when he does return, and all is set new.

43:20

The Passion of the Christ, the Passion of the Christ is one of the powerful lines for me in the whole movie, is when he's on the way to the cross, and he stumbles, and the girl comes up to him, or his mama comes running up to him, and he kind of shuns her away and says, I go to make all things new.

43:35

That's a powerful line for me.

43:37

I know it's a movie, but I go to make all things new.

43:39

You want to talk about utopia, that movie describes what utopia will be, what Christ has done there.

43:45

Sorry I went on a rant with that, but that's the whole point we're going to is, can utopia be found here? No, because of a three-letter word, sin.

43:56

It's not going to happen.

43:57

And even if we hold to a postmillennial perspective, or an optimistic amillennial perspective, whatever, those things, we're still not saying that there's ever going to be perfection.

44:07

Because there's going to be sin, even among believers.

44:11

I mean, there's no perfect church.

44:13

Why? Because believers still sin.

44:15

There's still that problem of sin.

44:19

And if Christianity flourishes in the arts, or in the media, or in other areas, which is where the whole idea of growth in these areas and seeing the Christianization of culture, even if that happens, there's still going to be sin.

44:34

This idea that we'll find a utopia one day, outside of Christ, is just not true.

44:42

And that's the point.

44:44

And if you really want to know, as you just said, if you really want to know what utopia is, go to Revelation chapter 21.

44:55

Read where the new heavens and the new earth come.

45:00

And that's the promise that we have.

45:02

That's not to say that we can't see blessing and benefit here.

45:06

That's not to say that we can't see growth here, or as we said, the Christianization of certain things and all of that.

45:14

But ultimately, in the end, and in the final analysis, there is no utopia outside of the mind of the cult leader, Gene Roddenberry.

45:27

Now, I will say this.

45:29

You can get small pictures and glimpses of it in the church.

45:32

Sure.

45:33

But it's just, it's fleeting.

45:38

But because, I mean, that's what my pastor likes to say is, you know, we have a worship service on Sunday morning.

45:42

He's like, this is a picture of what heaven is going to be like, worshiping God together.

45:47

Yeah.

45:47

So if you've got a problem with the guy next to you, you're going to have a problem you get to have.

45:52

But again, there'll be the removal of sin.

45:54

You won't have a problem with him anymore, you know, provided you're both there.

45:59

Sure.

45:59

You or him ain't a tear among the wheat.

46:03

But yeah, this utopia can't, it won't happen.

46:07

Yes.

46:07

And that's what's maddening is we're trying to, the government's trying to force us into that.

46:14

Yeah, and that's what I was saying earlier about the whole- Animal Farm, right.

46:17

I recommend a book on this subject, and it's not a Christian book.

46:21

It was written by Thomas Sowell.

46:23

Are you familiar with Thomas Sowell? Thomas Sowell is an author, an economist, a writer, and he wrote a book called Cosmic Justice, where, and this was written before the modern like sort of social justice warrior thing, you know, the book's several years old, but he, I guess not before it, but you know, he didn't write it in response to these things.

46:46

He saw these things coming.

46:48

Right.

46:48

And in Cosmic Justice, he addresses the issue of that what is often sought by the social justice warrior is some form of justice that really only comes from God.

47:00

It really only is on a cosmic level.

47:03

It's really God who is able to right the wrongs that are often trying to be righted, you know, or whatever the expressions are.

47:11

And again, this whole, so again, I would recommend that book as saying, here's a thought if you're interested in looking at this from a sociological level or, yeah.

47:20

Well, let me ask you this.

47:21

I haven't read it yet, but I need to.

47:23

But I know I've heard Vodie Bauckham talk about how we define justice in a different way that God defines justice.

47:29

Yes.

47:30

And I would think that his book Fault Lines would cover or address that.

47:35

He does.

47:35

He does.

47:36

And I haven't read Fault Lines, but I don't want to try to, I don't remember everything, you know, again, it's been several months since I've read it, and I don't remember exactly how he defines it, but that would be another one.

47:47

So if you want to, so some book recommendations for today would be Fault Lines by Vodie Bauckham, Cosmic Justice by Thomas Sowell, Biblically Functioning Church by Keith Foskey.

48:03

Because if you're going to recommend stuff, I'll just recommend your own stuff.

48:07

That has nothing to do with Utopia, but you know what? It's my book, and it's available for free.

48:13

Yes, you are an accomplished author.

48:15

You're a published author.

48:16

You're a podcaster.

48:17

I wouldn't say published.

48:18

My books are self-published.

48:19

I want to be honest about that.

48:21

I didn't, I haven't, but if there are publishers out there who are interested in looking at my manuscripts, you can email me at calvinistpodcasts at gmail.com.

48:31

Yeah, I actually want, I'm working on a new book right now.

48:34

Nice.

48:35

On the subject.

48:35

Where do you find time to do all this stuff? Christians and Personal Protection is my next thing that I want to dive into, because I've done a lot in that area.

48:44

I mean, 30 years, this next year is my 30th year in martial arts.

48:48

Wow.

48:48

I started in 1994.

48:50

I'm just trying to figure out, where do you, when do you sleep? You podcast.

48:54

You pastor.

48:55

You do karate.

48:56

You write.

49:01

I'm thankful for a supportive wife and a very, very supportive church that allows me to do a lot of these things.

49:07

Yeah, because you do a lot of stuff.

49:10

But yeah, again, I want to begin to draw to a close.

49:12

Here's my thought for you.

49:14

We're not doing a giveaway on today's program, but I will say this.

49:18

If you are interested in leaving a comment, here's what you can comment.

49:23

Is there a movie that talks about a utopian future that we couldn't think of? Right.

49:28

That would be there.

49:29

And if you do find one, you put one down there, I will, I'll give you a shout out.

49:34

I'll give you a shout out on the next program.

49:36

If you leave the name, I'll shout out all the movies that were mentioned.

49:42

If you can come up with a utopian book or utopian movie.

49:48

I'll give you a shout out on the next program.

49:50

I was trying to think.

49:51

I got like double copies of several books, but the names of them don't come to mind.

49:54

Yeah, I can't think of any either.

49:56

So, all right, guys.

49:57

So again, I want to thank you for, thank you, Uncle Rich, for being on the program today.

50:01

And again, a short notice program, but I still think a worthwhile program.

50:04

We were able to make everybody mad.

50:05

All the eschatological positions.

50:07

We were able to just take them all out.

50:10

You're going to get emails, kick him off the show.

50:14

But thank you again for being a part.

50:15

No problem.

50:16

And again, thank you for listening to Conversation with a Calvinist.

50:18

If you would, please, if you're watching this on YouTube, go down and hit the subscribe button.

50:23

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50:23

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50:29

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50:36

It is the Conversation with a Calvinist Facebook group.

50:39

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50:43

So again, I want to thank you for listening to Conversation with a Calvinist.

50:45

My name is Keith Foskey, and I've been your Calvinist.

50:49

May God bless you.