Is Utopia Coming?

Introduction and the Question of Utopia

Is the utopian future depicted in shows like Star Trek really something we should all be hoping for? That's what we're going to talk about today on Conversations with a Calvinist, which begins.

Right now. And welcome back to Conversations with a Calvinist. My name is Keith Foskey,.

And I am a Calvinist. And I am welcoming today again to the studio, Uncle Rich, the Muffin Man. He is here with me today, and I'm excited. Thank you for being here with me,.

Uncle Rich. No problem, brother. I'm stepping in on short notice.

That is. That's right. This is a short notice episode. We had a person scheduled for this week who had to reschedule, so Richard has graciously jumped in. And we're going to be talking about a subject that we actually discussed doing several weeks ago.

Actually Months ago, six months. Almost a year ago now, we talked about doing this. And that is the question of talking about, we had mentioned, we were doing a show about Orwell. George Orwell. Correct.

And we talked about how George Orwell had a picture of the world that was dystopian, and that there were other fantasy movies and TV shows and things that give a utopian future. And you mentioned Star Trek as your favorite, and I'm going to have you explain what that is in a minute.

For those who don't know what Star Trek is. I'm pretty sure most people know what Star Trek is.

I know that. We're going to talk about why, though, it matters for this. And we're going to talk about whether or not utopia ever will come. And this sort of is based on something that I did, and now we're looking at 15 years ago, because 2008 is 15 years ago, 16 years ago.

Is it? 15. Yeah, I'm real bad at math. I wrote a paper called Why Utopia Will Never Come, and we're going to be talking a little bit about my paper as well, because I made some points about the nature of man and how the human utopia that people are often going after really is a human expression of the heaven that God has promised for those who believe in Christ, and how human endeavors to try to find utopia here really are not ever going to really happen.

That was my argument in the paper. And again, it's 15 years ago. I'm not saying everything I said was correct, but that's sort of what draws us into today's conversation. Now it's time for this week's giveaway, and what we're giving away this time is our two Reformation Study Bibles.

On last week's program, we had you guys send in through YouTube the story of how you met your spouse, and we said this was going to be a Valentine's Day gift, and so all of the people who sent in how they met their spouse is on these sheets of paper.

There's several names per page, and I've been sitting here mixing these up, and Uncle Rich is going to choose a number one to four. Two. He's going to choose the number two, and now I'm going to ask him to reach into these sheets and grab whichever one he would like.

Just reach in and grab one, please. Oh, there you go. Got it. And he is going to tell us which name now is pulled at random, has won. And again, this is donated by Ryan Dubia, one of our listeners, and he's going to ship it to you.

Tell us the name of our winner. Second one down is Julie Six. Julie Six, okay. Who says she met her husband through a local Christian dating service called Match Made in Heaven. It's not there anymore.

We met and married in seven months. We've been married 20 years in July. So Julie Six is your winner.

Awesome. Awesome. Thank you. So Julie Six, I will be contacting you, letting you know that you're the winner of the two Reformation Study Bibles, and I hope that you enjoy them, and I want to say to you and to all of our listeners, Happy Valentine's Day, and hope you enjoy it with your significant other.

All right, my friend. Well, now we're going to move on to our next part of the program. One of my favorite parts that we've been doing, and that is my new game. There we go. Now, National Treasure is a new game.

I created this game. And what this is, is I am going to give you a pop culture icon. Someone that I think has some type of significance in our pop culture zeitgeist. Gotcha. And you have to try to pick why you think I chose the person.

Gotcha. So again, and this all is based on, for those who don't know and didn't see the program with me and Adam, this is based on something that happened with my kids. One day I'm sitting in my living room, and I said something to my kids about Tom Selleck.

And my children, God bless them, my children said, who is Tom Selleck? And I was, I know, I said, Tom Selleck, you don't know who Tom Selleck is? I said, no, I said, you don't know who Tom Selleck is?

No, we don't know who Tom Selleck is. And I said, that guy's a National Treasure. So that's where I came up with the name of the game. And I created this game and we've been playing it in my house ever since.

So it's just a fun game. And it's sort of like apples to apples, because I have a reason for picking who I pick. And so your job is not to tell me why you would pick them. Your job is to guess why I would pick them.

Right. And so this is not going to be as fun with guests who don't know me very well. But Adam did well. He picked all three.

And Adam didn't understand the game until the third question. That's what's amazing.

All right. So I'm going to pick someone that I would say is a National Treasure. Now, these people don't have to be genuine National Treasures. It's got to be somebody that's in the pop culture reality.

And hopefully it'll be someone that you know. So I'm going to pick somebody that really, this is going to be hard. I'm choosing this because it's you. I wouldn't do this to a normal guest. But you, my friend, if anything, have proven yourself to be abnormal.

OK, thank you. No, absolutely. All right, my friend, the name, John Cryer. OK, John Cryer. Is he from...

Oh, no. I'm, the name pops up in my head. Is he the one with, it was in Charlie, with the two,.

I can't think of the name of the show. You're thinking Two and a Half Men. And no, that is not the reason why I picked John.

No, I'm just saying John Cryer. That's the actor. Right. He played opposite Charlie Sheen.

John Cryer made his mark in a much different decade for me. Not, not, not that the show that you're talking about, that show that you're talking about has... Right, I wouldn't recommend that show. A little sketchy.

Yeah, I wouldn't recommend that. Very sketchy, actually.

So, unfortunately, brother, I'm not familiar with a whole lot of John Cryer's work. So it's got to be some, knowing you, it's got to be some 80s pop something, movie he was in or that you think is funny or is a classic.

Or you're pulling something up.

I'm pulling up. I can't, I can't... Sixteen Candles? Uh, yeah. See, I ain't even seen that, so... Oh, come on, man. Dude. Come on, man. It's not Sixteen Candles. He played Ducky. Ducky. Ducky in Pretty in Pink.

Pretty in Pink. See, I've never seen that either.

It's, uh, he, he's, he's the best friend of the girl, the love interest of the movie. And he, and he's desperately in love with her, but she, but he's in the friend zone.

I was about to say, he's friend zoned to the nth degree.

And that, that, that, I mean, first of all... I feel him. It's like, Ducky is here. It's like, we know.

I may need to watch it now because I'd be right there with him. That's right.

Been there, brother. Know what it's like. Yeah. So, so again, uh, that, that just is honestly, I, I will tell you what I love John Cryer in though, that's not that. John Cryer played in Superman 4 as the nephew of Lex Luthor named Lenny.

Lenny Luthor. He plays a punk rocker who just talks with that punk rock, like this rocks, you know, that like, he's so stiff.

He was, he was Keanu Reeves before Keanu Reeves was Keanu Reeves.

But the best part of the movie is when Lex Luthor, first of all, not people may not realize Lex Luthor was an advocate of homeschooling because he says in the movie, he says, Lenny, you pathetic product of the public school system.

Gene Hackman was the best Lex Luthor ever. And if any, if anybody ever plays this game, if I ever pull up Gene Hackman, it will be because of Lex Luthor. Not Unforgiven, not Hoosiers, but Lex Luthor.

See that, that, what you just said right there, that's where my mind was going. There was some, he had some role that was secondary. I'm just not what the Superman for, you know, that, that's, that's where your mind goes.

I was half right.

You got it to the decade. You were correct. You got it to the decade. All right. So that again is what we call, oh, it's just one question a day. No, but yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Adams was an initial. I wanted to teach people how to do the game.

Now it's just me, one person and tell me why that person is a national treasure. So now we move on to the main topic of the show. And today we're going to be talking about the subject of Utopia. And as I said, at the beginning of the program, what brought this up is the question of will Utopia ever come?

Human Conflict, Isaiah 50:8, and the Limits of Utopian Dreams

And in 2008, I wrote a paper. It was for my Lib 320 class. I still have it here. My professor was Professor Rick Chaffee. So Rick, if you're watching, I doubt it.

Oh, he pronounced it Chaffee because I would call that Chaffee. But anyway.

Oh, well, and you're probably right. I why Utopia may never come. This was a paper I wrote and I wanted to read the first paragraph. And this is how I began the paper. If any two men desire the same thing, which nevertheless they cannot both enjoy, they become enemies.

Now, that was a quote from our book, and I thought it was a good way to describe what causes most human conflict. Two people want the same thing, whether it be the same property, the same riches, same woman.

Right. The two people want the same thing. And those two people can't both enjoy that thing at the same time. They can't both have it. And therefore, by nature, they become enemies. And I thought that that's reasonable.

And one of the reasons why in a simplest term, I would say Utopia will probably not ever come in the sense because there will always be there will always be a limited number of goods and things that we can enjoy.

And people like right now, there's a war going on between Russia and Ukraine over, you know, land and power and who gets to seize the power. And so but it goes on to say this. It's another another quote.

War is natural. Peace is an accident. We can start a war in five minutes, but it takes hundreds of years to make peace. And the last quote I have, I started with the several quotes, but I quote from Isaiah chapter 50, verse eight, which says the way of peace they have not known.

There is no justice in their ways. They have made themselves crooked paths. Whoever takes that way shall not know peace. And that's Isaiah chapter 50, verse eight, the way of peace they have not known.

So really, my argument in the paper was because the question of the class, you know, it was dealing with sociology and wars and things like that. I was saying basically these are things we're going to experience until the end of time.

And there are those who believe that human beings can create a utopia. And some have even described it in fictional terms. And that is where you're going to come in, Richard. I'm going to turn the screen over to you.

You're going to get 100 percent of the screen here to describe to us what is this little thing called Star Trek? And why is Gene Roddenberry a cult leader? Now, that part.

Star Trek, Technology, and a World Without Money

Well, I grew up on Star Trek, and it's just basically it's set in the 24th. Well, it depends on if you're watching the old school one that was with Captain Kirk and Spock and all those guys. And, you know, the 60s, which my mom watched daily.

I mean, I've seen every episode. And basically, it's this this they've reached this level where at least humanity has where there's no more money. There's no more conflict. Everybody doesn't you don't really I guess you would own stuff, but it didn't matter, so to speak.

But everything was taken. Everything was everything was good. You've gotten past all these moral ills, I guess you would say. And you don't really see a whole lot of that in in the old series. But in TNG, the next generation, they talk more about that because the next generation actually took a little.

It was like politically correct before politically correct. Yeah. Like in the in the opening line where it's a space, the final frontier, and it gives the whole thing. And it's as boldly go where in the 60s, he said no man has gone before.

Well, TNG changed it to no one has gone before because we have to be all inclusive anyway.

It's like the Bibles where they take out the pronouns. Yep. There you go. Everything gender neutral.

There you go. God. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So anyhow, it's a it's utopian in the sense of everybody. There's no more monetary value. There's no money. There's no property. You work for the sake of the enjoyment of work.

I mean, that's that's just I'm just saying.

Because I have to just say this in the movie Back to the Future 3. Doc Brown is trying to describe the future. And he says, we have automobiles that take us where we want to go. And this guy said, well, if you got these auto, what's the senses?

Does anybody run anymore? And he says, yes, but they run for recreation. They run for fun. He's a run for fun. What kind of fun is that? So you said people work for fun.

Well, I didn't say they work for fun. They work for the gratification you get out of a job well done because you're not getting paid to do it. I guess like you go to Starfleet to where you can get your position on a ship so you can go and travel.

But you're working. I mean, it's work. You have a job to do depending on what level you're in. So that's the idea is everything's everything's good. And I mean, they got things like replicators, like literally, I don't know how many times in the show you'll be in John Luke's Bacard's office or chambers, whatever you want to call it, quarters.

That's what they call them. Quarters. I hadn't watched it in a long time. He walks up to the replicator, Earl Gray, hot and and it pops right up and he drinks his he drinks his tea. You know, you want to you want spaghetti meatballs?

There was one episode where this old country boy, I think they got him from the he came from the past or something, how he ended up there. And he's like, you think you can make grandma's steak and potatoes or some something like that?

And he gave it the recipe and it made it for him. I mean, it's just so when you got everything at your fingertips is, you know, and everything's provided for and there's no money and nobody's fighting over anything.

That's the idea is everything's equal. Everything's everybody has the same opportunity to have the same stuff and nobody's fighting over anything.

Theological Objections to a Self-Made Utopia

Yeah, I do. I want to make a mention of something, because just in case anyone ever makes the connection and certainly if anybody did, it would be fine. There was a there was a web show that came out a few years ago called After Hours.

That was the name of the show. And they would talk. It was four people who taught pop culture. And one of the one of their episodes, they they said the joke I made earlier about Gene Roddenberry as a cult leader, and they brought up the the thing that you just said about the replicator.

What's interesting about that is they said, you know, if you have everything for you, produced for you and you don't have to work for anything, how can you be, you know, so long motivation, so long, you know, work ethic or any of that?

And of course, you know, somebody could argue, well, what's heaven going to be like, you know, for you know, for Christians? And I, for one, I believe that heaven, we are actually going to have occupation in heaven.

That's a whole other conversation. I don't think heaven is going to be us sitting on clouds, strumming harps. In fact, I know that's not what it's going to be. Right. Scripture tells us there's a new heaven and a new earth, and it describes the new heaven and the new earth in physical qualities, not not just, you know, an ethereal, out of body place where we sit on a cloud, you know, again, strumming a harp.

So we would agree that there is a utopia coming. Utopia is God's garden. It's God's Eden. It's what it's what's been redeemed better than Eden, because God is going to to redeem what was lost.

Right. And the reason it will be a utopia is because of the one element that you address in your paper. And I was, you know, my mind was already there before I read your paper that you sent to me that you wrote 15 years ago was there will be no sin to corrupt any of it.

That's right. Because even if you go to the Star Trek world and I'm based in the I'm based in my comments off Star Trek based on a conversation I think either Picard or Troy had with somebody who was in like another another race, another alien culture.

They were in all kinds of conflict and all this kind of stuff. And he they asked the question, well, why do you all not have these problems? And they said, we've we've developed and matured beyond those kind of issues where we're at peace and where these other alien cultures are, you know, at war with even the Klingons are constantly on the brink of civil war.

So it's just humanity that's reached this utopia. No one else really has. Yeah. But even in the show, even in between the members of Star Trek, the members of the Starship Enterprise, there's conflict.

There's aggravation that there was you got war for Klingon. You got Troy, who's like the beta Zed and you got Riker, who's number two and Troy and Riker won't I mean, Riker and Worf won't Troy. And they're at odds with each other over a woman.

Where's the utopia there? There's still there's still conflict. There's still like you said, what one man wants and another man can't have. There's going to be a fight over.

Postmillennialism, Amillennialism, and the Hope of Christ's Return

Yeah. So they really haven't evolved past based desires. Right. Like you said, I mean, I've seen I've never seen the show.

I've seen every episode, every movie, even the new ones.

I did see. I saw the movie. Please get quick on my camera. My bad, dude. I got my camera doing this. People at home gonna be like watching the show like the Night of the Roxbury.

No, but OK, so you never seen the show. We saw one of the movies.

I well, I saw the newer movies, and I think I saw the one about the whales.

Yeah, that was that was the old the old guy.

That's where that's where the dude's acting up on the bus. Right, right, right. They went back in time. And he chows.

Ninja chops and he don't ninja chop. He does. He does the Vulcan nerve.

Here's going to be here's going to be a deep cut, but only for certain members of my audience. He George Dillman him. And if you don't know what that means, that's a karate reference. He touched him. Dude fell asleep.

Yes, he did the Vulcan nerve bench. All right. So but no, I don't know. I don't know the show. Like I said, it's not because I didn't like the show. I was I was a superhero nerd. So people say, oh, which is better, Star Wars, Star Wars or Star Trek?

That's like Batman. That is better. And Batman don't have no utopia. No, man. The world's always bad.

Yes. And that's why he's here. Right. Yeah. So well, the only reason I know it's because I grew up on it. I mean, my mom had bookshelves of the novels and she'd read every one of them. She was like obsessed with it.

Wow. Now, if I hadn't if my mom wasn't a Star Trek fan, I'd never watch show either. But after you're after you're exposed to it, it's like you grow to like it. Well, like I said, I'm not I'm not.

Dude, I like I mean, the guys I watch are in tights. I'm not challenging you and calling you out. I'm saying it's it's cool. I like it when people have their thing. Right. Girl, you know, like I'm an 80s guy.

That's my thing. You know, I like certain I like certain aspects. I like back to the future. Favorite. Yeah, I've mentioned that earlier. But getting back to the utopia thing, getting back to sort of the heart of this issue is is man's nature is such that our our sinful nature seems to be pushing opposed to the idea of any type of utopia rather than toward it.

But there is a theological position, and I don't mean to come out of left field with this, and I don't want to start a civil war on my page. So right now, let me I'm going to switch to me real quick. I'm going to plead and beg that all of my postmillennial listeners do not freak out for the next few minutes of this conversation.

Fair enough, because as many people know, I am an amillennialist. OK, but I am what sometimes is referred to as an optimistic amillennialist and that I believe that there are areas where Christianity can and will flourish in the future.

Postmillennialists tend to be much more optimistic and say it must flourish, and that's what the millennium is, is the is the flourishing of Christianity. And I like this idea, the idea that what if we are still in the early church?

What if there is still 10 ,000 years of church history? Because if that's the truth, we could still have we could have three more reformations. We could have, you know, three more, you know, Wittenberg moments.

And wouldn't it be nice right now if somebody wrote up 95 theses against Bethel and went and nailed it to that church? I mean, seriously, and it mattered. Right. If somebody did that today, it'd be like a message board on a post in a Twitter feed, and it would get lost in the shuffle of all the information that's passed around.

It would do very little. Right. But in 1517, when 95 theses were nailed, it made a difference. Well, what if something else came along and made a difference? And there was a giant leap forward for the gospel.

And there was another great awakening. And that's the idea behind postmillennialism, is that, you know, we see these advances, and we trust that God's going to continue to give these advances. And so where I find myself, and I know I'm kind of, like I said, coming out of left field, hope I'm not, you know, throwing off, kind of going away from the subject, but I think this is part of it.

And the issue is, is postmillennialism saying that there's a utopia coming? I'm not really sure that's what they're saying. And do you have much experience with this, with the postmillennial side? Do you got anybody in your church that holds this position?

I'm not sure. I think my pastor, Cody Falls, born in a millennial camp like you do. I think he's mentioned that from the pulpit. I think my brother Hank's postmill, or was at one time.

Going back to Cody, I want to give him props. If you are correct, and he has said that from the pulpit, God bless him. Because in a small Southern Baptist church, which yours is bigger than our church, in a mid-sized Southern Baptist church, to even say you're not pre-trib, pre-mill is a big deal.

Oh, and to give him more props, he was preaching from Matthew 24, and he held a position that these things took place in 1870.

See, that's a partial preteristic view of it, which that's where I'm at. Partial preterism, amillennialism. And again, I'm going to get messages on this. People are typing the comments as we speak. But that's what I'm saying.

This is how he views the text. This is what he understands what to say, and so he preached it that way. Now he did preface it saying, now there's going to be y 'all that's not going to agree with this, and we can all still cohabitate.

But I had to bring the word to you the way I believe it to be.

So you say your brother Hank, who is a good friend of mine, and obviously a good friend of yours, he's your brother. He's my brother, sorry. You've known him for a little while. I did his wedding, so I feel like we have a kinship there.

You say he has a, potentially is post-mill.

Yeah, I remember there was a time where he was in that camp or position. Definitely. But I don't know if he's changed since then.

What's interesting about the post-mill position is I see a lot of it coming out of the Jeff Durbin and Doug Wilson groups. Jeff Durbin has Apologia Church in Arizona, and Doug Wilson has Christ Church, Christ Reformed Church in Idaho, Moscow, Idaho.

And both of those guys teach a post-millennial perspective, and I see it becoming more and more popular. Now, like I said, I'm not there. I've had people ask me, why aren't you there? Even my wife, one time, I remember coming home.

It's a funny story. I came home from work one day, and she goes, why aren't we post-mill? And of all the questions you expect to get when you walk in the door, how was your day? Nope. Did you have a good day, honey?

Nope.

I didn't get that. Let's just get in the weeds right off the bat.

Well, I listened to Jeff Durbin explain post-millennialism on Alley Best Times. Oh, you listened to Jeff Durbin? Oh, well, okay. I was like, well, did you listen to Conversation with a Calvinist? Because it hurts.

If the answer is no. No, I mean, I will say this. Jeff Durbin is an important voice in our time. I think he's a wonderful pastor. He does a lot of good things. But he was on Alley Best Stucky, which is a show.

My wife likes her. She listens to her, reads some of her books. And he was describing the difference between post-mill and pre-mill in the sense of how we see the future, because his argument, if I remember correctly, and again, I listen to the podcast too, because when your wife nails you, as soon as you walk through the door, why aren't you post-mill?

I'm like, what you been listening to? Why is this dinner conversation? But you want to know, okay, what is it she listened to? You want to kind of get involved with it. And his argument essentially was that one of the things that led him away from pre-mill was the absolute pessimism of it, is that the idea was the world's going to hell in a handbasket.

Just let the world go to hell in a handbasket. Don't try to engage. Just batten down the hatches and get ready for the rapture. Or if you're not a pre-trib guy, batten down the hatches and get ready for the tribulation.

Either way, you're basically rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic anyway. So why does it matter? And I do think what I just said, again, I've got dispensationalists who listen to this, and I've got premillennialists who listen to this.

Guys, understand, I'm not saying that's exactly what Jeff said, and I'm not saying that's what I believe. I am saying that is an attitude that can be drawn. If people think the battle's already lost, that everything's going to go to hell anyway, why fight the battle?

That's the attitude. And again, for Jeff, he was saying he felt that post-millennialism provided more of an optimistic view, because again, the idea is that Christ will return to a world that has been converted, not completely, but has been converted to Christ on a large scale.

And so you can see how, going back to the time when the Adventist movements were really raising up during the 1800s, you can see how people would believe that, because you've got the Great Awakening happening, and all of these new things are taking place, and people are saying, this is the end, Jesus is going to come, this wonderful new thing has happened, and people are being converted en masse.

So then we go through two World Wars, two atomic bomb blasts, and many people begin to see the world differently after those events, because the attitude becomes, well, maybe it wasn't, maybe the Great Awakening wasn't the end, maybe that wasn't the great event.

And then the Jews return to Israel in the 40s, that sparks a huge eschatological idea, especially among those who are dispensational and see a future for ethnic Israel. And you don't have to be dispensational to see a future for ethnic Israel, but those who are counting on a future for ethnic Israel as part of their eschatology, they see the Jews return to Israel as a big deal.

So again, all of this comes back to eschatology, this whole idea of utopia. Now you said, we were talking outside of the program, that you're not nailed down where you are.

Right, I haven't spent a lot of time with eschatology. I've been exposed to dispensationalism enough that I don't agree with that, and I'm sorry for those who are going to write comments after I say this, but the exegetical gymnastics you have to play with dispensationalism to make it work just doesn't work for me.

In Hebrews, it just doesn't work for me. You know, Christ reinstituting sacrifice and stuff like that, that bothers me.

Well, that's a premillennial view, and I'm not necessarily correcting you, you're right, because dispensationalism is premillennial. Okay, okay. And so dispensationalism, though, is a holistic view of the whole Bible.

Right, all happens in certain dispensations.

Yeah, which distinguishes between Israel and the church, making that—.

And that's the other reason I don't agree with them, because we're spiritual Israel, so there's no separation.

Again, it's unclerich at email .com. It's what you just said, even that phrase, when you say, we are spiritual Israel, you say it with such gravitas. Well, I'm just saying— I'm not disagreeing with you, but I have to say, that whole thing, you would be surprised how many churches you would get, I mean—.

Run out of town. I got it. If nothing else, they would want clarification. What do you mean we're spiritual Israel, you know? But anyway.

And so, yeah. But beyond dispensationalism, I haven't really jumped into any of it and nailed down something, because honestly, and this is just my personal opinion on it, is—. That's all any of this.

Is Christ is coming back, and we need to be ready and preach the gospel till you die. I mean, that's—because when you get into those eschatology—I know eschatology has an importance, and it's necessary.

I'm not discrediting it. You don't need to study it. I understand its importance. But once you nail down a position, and you stand on that podium, now let's fight. I mean, you had to preface this section with saying, please don't blow up my comment section with a holy war.

That's right. So, I mean, it's just—it's one thing when you're fighting about the gospel itself. It's another thing when you're fighting about, well, which one's right? On when is Christ going to come back in a thousand-year reign?

Is he not? Or is it just going to—I don't have time for that.

Well, it's interesting. Yeah, and I hold a particular eschatological viewpoint, but I don't—I hold it with a loose hand, and I tell people that. Right. People who come to the Church, I say, if you're coming here looking for eschatological certainty, then you really just—you won't be happy here.

Right. You know, we—all of our elders are basically in the same place on our eschatology. That's one nicety, is we don't have a bunch of division among the elders. We all basically hold to a partial preteristic understanding of Revelation and amillennial view, which, again, we say optimistic amillennialism, which could tiptoe into postmillennialism a little bit.

So somebody who's postmill could probably come here and be very comfortable. Premill, if somebody's dedicated to premill, they may not be happy here because we never talk about it very much. But I wouldn't say it should ever keep anybody from membership.

Right. Because we—our one finite rule—or not finite—our one final rule on eschatology when it comes to membership is you have to agree that Christ is going to return. Right. Right? And this takes us back to—and I do want to get back to the original topic at hand, and that's the topic of utopia, because Christ's return, whether we're postmill, amill, premill, whatever—Christ's return is what ushers in the kingdom, and the final state—and again, I guess it does matter, because premillennialism would say it ushers in a thousand-year reign, and then it's the final state.

Right. But if we hold to an amill or postmill perspective, Christ's return ushers in the eternal state. And the eternal state is the only utopia that we have to really hope for in the sense of absolute and no more—as Revelation 21 says, no more tears, no more hatred, no more fighting.

All of that is done away with. And that is the—that's the thing that when we look at—again, going back to Star Trek, going back to—and what's some other shows? Maybe it's a good question. What's some other shows that have tried to propose a—and in the comments.

All right, we'll ask the commenters. Because I don't really—. What are some other shows that have put out the idea of a utopian future? Because most—a lot of stuff's dystopian. Right. Your Book of Eli, your—wow, goodness.