Pastor Cody Schwichtenberg Interview 

The Call to Love Enemies and the Interview Setup

Welcome to No Compromise Radio Ministry. It's Mike Abendroth, Duplex Gratia Radio. You can always email me, mike at nocompromiseradio .com. Today in NoCo time, it's a Wednesday, and on Wednesdays I like to have theologians, authors, pastors, friends.

I don't know if I've had too many enemies on, but maybe. I'm preaching the passage coming up in Luke 6, Love Your Enemies, and I said to myself and to the Lord the other day, Lord, who are my enemies that I'm supposed to love any particular ones?

Anyway, today I have a guest on that I'm excited to have on, Pastor Cody Schwittenberg, and he is pastoring in South Dakota. Cody, welcome, and did I mess up your last name? Not too bad. Okay. I could ask you to pronounce my name, but then we'd get into something.

Tell our listeners, Cody, how we met.

We met at the Pacton Conference down in Omaha, and I didn't talk to you a whole lot, but we did have just a brief conversation, and it was during your lecture on preaching.

That I got to talk with you afterwards. That's right. There was a pre-conference on preaching, and then the different seminars. I just wrote an email today, Cody, to David Van Drunen, thanking him for his messages.

They were good along with the other men. Tell me, what is going on in South Dakota? How did you get there? I don't even know where...

Is it Harrod? Harrod? What's going on? Harrod, South Dakota, which is a town of about 400 people. It's about seven miles south of the North Dakota-South Dakota border there. It's a pretty quiet town.

Small-Town Ministry in Harrod, South Dakota

We're a Reformed Church. Our denomination that we're part of is the Reformed Church in the United States. It's a denomination that's been around for almost 300 years. This church has been around since, I think, 1904, 1905.

I basically ended up here. I actually grew up in Iowa, and I was a nominal Lutheran. I learned some good theology there, but I didn't really pay attention in catechism class. I wish I did.

Well, it's interesting, Cody. I'm sorry to interrupt you. I pulled up some of my old Lutheran confirmation preparation tests, and one of them was what is faith, and I had to fill in three blanks, and I correctly filled in knowledge, assent, and trust.

Why didn't.

I remember that from that liberal Lutheran church? Well, I looked at your test there, and I think you did much better than what I would have done if I got that test when I was.

In eighth grade. Sorry. Back to your... What Iowa city did you grow up in?

I grew up in Garner, Iowa.

So liberal Lutheran, and then how did you become Reformed and then get to South Dakota?

Well, I... And actually, it was a Missouri Synod Lutheran, so it wasn't liberal, but I actually... I was a nominal Lutheran, but I actually came to faith when I was about 18. Someone explained the gospel to me, and the Holy Spirit finally convicted me, and I had a better understanding of the 18 to 19.

I was kind of flailing in the wind. I didn't know where to go, what to do, and by God's providence, I met my wife, who actually grew up in a Reformed church, and after that, I heard a sermon talking about the need of men to be trained and go into the ministry, and I had that desire to go into the ministry, and I ended up going to Heidelberg Theological Seminary in Sioux Falls, which basically, everything I know now came through seminary.

And after that, I graduated in 2015, and then I ended up here in Harriet, South Dakota,.

And I've been here nine years. That is wonderful. Now, let's talk a little bit about theology in a moment, but in a town of 400, you must know a lot of people. I mean, are You have to drive a long way to find a larger supermarket?

I mean, what are the other churches in the area? Talk to me a little bit about the small town.

Well, what's interesting about Harriet is we're about a hundred miles away from the big city, a hundred miles away from a Walmart and a McDonald's, and when I looked at Harriet on the map before I came here, I thought people were crazy.

How in the world can you live in a small town and be so far away from the city? But you get used to it. You learn to make sure you have your list ready before you leave the house. In Harriet, you basically get to know everybody.

I don't know everybody, but everybody knows me.

And most of the people there, farmers, I'm just guessing?

Yes, farmers. That's the main career choice here. Although what's interesting in our church is we got a whole variety of different occupations. We have a photographer, we have a carpenter, we have a mechanic, and basically half the bank is members of the Reformed Church.

And also we have the superintendent of the school is actually a member of our church as well. So we got a whole host of different people in the church, although most are Germans, although we do.

Have a few Dutch in our church as well. Well, Cody, I'm encouraged to have you on and to hear the Lord's faithfulness in your life. The last nine years, we live in an evangelical culture where it's attendance, buildings, and cash, and all this counting nickels and noses.

And I regularly say and still believe it, and I'm talking to one of the men now that I think about, the Lord has scattered across America and, of course, the globe, pastors, small little towns, no one will ever know about them, but the Lord knows, and proclaiming the truth.

And so I appreciate that about you, Cody. So good job. Tell our listeners a little bit about what you believe, that is to say your denomination, what the three forms of unity are, and that might give our listeners a better understanding about your doctrine and the.

The Three Forms of Unity and the Law-Gospel Distinction

Denomination. Well, as a church, we hold to the three forms of unity. That includes the Belgic Confession, the Canons of Dort, and the Heidelberg Catechism. And the Heidelberg Catechism is probably my favorite of all the confessions because it's personal, it's pastoral, it really helped me to understand the gospel, helped me understand the law gospel distinction.

I didn't know what the law gospel distinction was until about 2019. However, by learning and studying the catechism, I basically followed it without realizing it. And basically, I use the catechism for basically everything as a help and a guide to explain the gospel to people, whether I'm doing premarital counseling, whether I'm training the youth, or doing membership classes.

And I would say that I didn't start to get a true appreciation of the catechism until about, I think, halfway through my ministry.

And were you taught a lot of that in seminary, or you didn't remember in seminary,.

Or how did that work? Well, it was taught in seminary, but I don't think it fully clicked on the importance of it until later on. But the nice thing about the Heidelberg Catechism, which I really appreciate, is question 60, which I'm sure you know what question 60 is of the Heidelberg Catechism.

It's, how are you righteous before God? And it says, answer only by true faith in Jesus Christ, that is, although my conscience accuses me that I have grievously sinned against all the commandments of God and never kept any of them, and I'm still prone always to all evil, yet God, without any merit of mine, of mere grace, grants and imputes to me the perfect satisfaction, righteousness, and holiness of Christ, as if I had never committed nor had any sin, and have myself accomplished all the obedience which Christ has fulfilled for me, if only I accept such benefits with a bleeding heart.

And basically, that's the heart, it's the heart of the gospel, and it's the heart of the catechism. And you take out question 60, you have no hope.

Amen. Pastor Cody, thanks for being on today. I was thinking as you were talking, I'm very thankful that it seems like in Reformed denominations and Baptist denominations, evangelicalism at large, many pastors are understanding now with clarity, law gospel distinction, understanding, as Luther called them, the two words.

What do you think, or why do you think this is kind of being recovered in the last five to ten years in a lot of circles from OPC, URC, Baptist, Reformed Baptist? Can you explain why many people are finally coming to terms with this biblical law gospel, not just Lutheran law gospel, but.

Recovering the Law-Gospel Distinction

Reformed as well? I think primarily it's because of people going back to the original sources, you know, reading Calvin, reading Luther, reading the confessions, creeds and confessions. Then you have books that are helpful by men long ago, such as John Calhoun, The Law and the Gospel.

And also another one I think people are reading is The Gospel Mystery of Sanctification by Walter Marshall. And then you have these, you know, like you as well as theocasts that are explaining this clearly to people.

And it was really through theocasts that I finally started to get a proper understanding of the law gospel distinction and actually hearing what it is, you know, although I might've followed it, I didn't know what it was, but I think primarily it's the going back to the original sources.

Well, it's kind of fun for me to learn new things and then fun for me to realize that while I can learn so much from the Reformed people, sometimes Reformed people can learn from Baptists. Speaking of which, how did you find out about the Pactam Conference?

I know you're pretty close to Omaha. I mean, it's a long drive, but it's not like you're in Wyoming. How'd you find out about Pat's ministry and the Pactam Conference?

Well, it actually was at our Synod last year or this year, this past year. And I was talking to my friend, Pastor Carl Goebelman. I was talking to him about the fact that I really wanted to go to a Bible conference.

And I was actually supposed to go to Ligonier in 2020, but COVID killed that. And he told me about the Pactam Conference in Omaha. So I think that day I got my tickets and I was excited to go down there.

And it was actually through Carl that I actually knew that there was actually a good conference in the Midwest, which I'm very appreciative of.

Well, I just got an email today from Carl, and then I responded, Cody, with the request that Carl come on the show as well. So before you know it, Carl hopefully will be on No Compromise Radio Ministry.

Tell our listeners a little bit about your philosophy of preaching and what you do. Do you go verse by verse? Are you working through the Heidelberg Catechism? I know I'm on your Facebook site and haven't listened to your messages yet, but want to pull one up and listen.

What's your philosophy of preaching?

Preaching Simply, Clearly, and Biblically

Well, my philosophy is keep it simple, keep it clear, and keep it biblical. You know, the one thing I don't want to do is to talk over people's heads, nor do I want to go into the pulpit and give an exegetical paper.

I want to understand the text and then present it in such a way that the average person in the pew can understand.

Well, it seems like a lot of folks don't make that connection that is folks that are in the pulpit. That is to say, they learn, they're doing exegesis, they're in their study, they see verbs, they see word studies, they look at particles that connect, and all of a sudden that dump truck of information is just backed up into the pulpit, and they forget they're preaching to people.

And I want men to study, but I want them to then explain it in a clear fashion. So I commend you for that. I'm thankful for that. When you look around at the congregation when you're preaching, how often do you deviate, Cody, from your notes as you see someone and then you remember, oh yeah, they've just lost a loved one, and I'm going to try to do some extra encouragement today with the gospel as I see their face.

Does that stuff ever happen to you?

Oh, absolutely. You know, I would say about 20 of my message is basically just whatever the Holy Spirit prompting me to go off my notes or my manuscript. And so it happens quite a bit. And actually, I find that probably what sticks in people's minds the most is the things that just kind of come up spontaneously.

Amen. Well, it's almost like you've.

Studied so much and prayed, and then you get up there and it's just an overflow of things. And one of the reasons I don't manuscript is because I think it'd probably be hard for me to then go off my manuscript and then know where to come back.

But for those of the listeners that know about my manuscript policy when it comes to preaching, they can attend Pat's pre-seminar.

Well, let me say one thing. During your lecture on preaching, I left there, went back ready to preach. And although I write out my manuscripts, I really try to not be stuck to it. So you're you're starting to get me to go a little bit to the notes, but I'm not quite there yet.

Well, I appreciate that comment. And sometimes, you know, Cody, you think, all right, I'm just going to make a few strikethrough fonts on my manuscript on the Word document or whatever. And then that just tells me when I'm in the pulpit, you know what, I could probably skip that if I want in terms of looking down and reading or, you know, after nine years of preaching, your accumulation of knowledge is to the extent now that if I just said, tell me about redemption, you could just probably talk for 15 minutes about redemption without looking at your Bible or looking at your notes.

So all that to say, good job. Cody, tell me your process of working through, all right, you're in Missouri Synod. Lutherans have a certain view of baptism that's not quite a Reformed view of baptism. How did you work through that coming from Lutheranism to going to Reformed view of baptism?

And of course, I'm a Baptist, but I'm interested in what you were thinking through regarding paedo-baptism and what does it really mean?

Baptism, Sacraments, and the Visible Word

Well, when it came to baptism, I didn't quite understand the Lutheran view at the time. But I would say that my understanding, once again, the Heidelberg Catechism really helped me out with that. And when I think of the sacraments, it's not preaching anything new, but it is simply the, it's the visible word as Augustine put it.

And when it comes to baptism, it's the understanding that God has, He is proclaiming His promises of the gospel to those who are baptized. And you don't receive salvation or the Holy Spirit through baptism, but there's the promise that if you believe in the gospel, if you trust in the Lord Jesus Christ, the promises of the gospel are yours.

And when we see the baptism or we see the Lord's supper, it's a reminder of the gospel, what Christ has done for us. But I would say that before that, I really struggled with trying to understand the sacraments.

Because even though I didn't pay attention in my Lutheran Catechism class, I must have paid attention a little bit because I did, there was a little bit of a struggle going from being a Lutheran to my reformed understanding of things.

Peter Turner So one of the things you reminded me of in our exchange over email and texting, Cody, is that your denomination, the Reformed Church of the United States, you see, excuse me, yeah, you see, no, R-C-U-S, easy for me to say.

My good friend, our good friend, R. Scott Clark is, I think he was ordained in that denomination. Is that right? Cody Yes. Peter Turner. And do you know Scott? Have you ever talked to him?

Cody I've never met him. But I do know people in our denomination pastors who did know him. Back in, I think he was a pastor in the late 80s to the 90s before he went to Westminster Seminary. Peter Turner.

That's right. I think he was ordained in the R-C-U-S, maybe, in Nebraska someplace, because I know he grew up in Omaha and Lincoln. Yeah, that's right. I think I've told you before, we, my family had a cabin up near Yankton, South Dakota, and it was on the Nebraska side of the Dam.

And we would regularly drive over to Yankton, South Dakota, which was the big town that had the supermarkets and all that. And that in the summertime, we were there for three months while dad went back to work at the phone company.

Mom and my brother and sister, we stayed there. And on Sundays, we would go to the drive-in movie theater. And the Lutheran pastor there locally, he was LCA, or it wasn't ELC yet, ELCA. And he would stand on top of the snack bar, and he had a microphone, and we would have the little deals set on the window, the speakers in the car, and we would have drive-in church.

And we'd probably go there every Sunday, Lutheran Church, Yankton, South Dakota. How about that? Drive-in movie theater. What other kind of churches are in your town of Herod or whatever, 400 people?

I mean,.

Is there an evangelical church there? There's, I think there's five churches. There's a Reformed Church, there's a Baptist Church, a Lutheran Church, Assemblies of God,.

And then you have a Roman Catholic Church. And do the, where's the migration? Is it go from Baptist to go to the Reformed, or is it Reformed going to the Catholic? What's the migration there in terms of people leaving churches going to another?

Well, we've had some from the Roman Catholic Church come to the Reformed Church, and also some from the Baptist Church. So we do get some different people from different backgrounds. So I, also one from the Assemblies of God.

So actually the Lord has been very gracious over the past four years. We've actually, I think we've had four or five new families come in. And basically the way they started coming was someone invited them to church.

And then we just got to know them. And I heard many times from these new members that it feels like a family when they come to our church, which is a very good sign, very loving church, very kind. They dealt with my bad sermons early on and were very gracious.

So yeah, I'm very thankful that the Lord brought me to Herod and to this church. It just works well.

Patient Congregations and the Balm of the Gospel

Well, think about how patient those people were for you. And I think about the church here for me. I've been here 27 years and I don't know how many years, 15 or something, not really getting law gospel like I should, and probably combining the two and taking away assurance and thinking I was doing a good job making sure everybody was convicted and everything else.

And in the old days, Cody, I probably thought, I mean, I hate to admit it, but it's true, that I was a gift to the church here, a little town of 7 ,000, and they should have been happy to have me. And then actually the opposite is true, that they sat here and just took a licking for so long.

Now, Cody, I probably do what you do, and that is I'm most pleased when people after the sermon, if they say anything, if they say, that was encouraging today, pastor, that probably means the most to me, right?

Absolutely. Because if we convict people when we preach using the law, that's certainly fine. But I tell people regularly, if you even discipline your child as a sinful human father, after you discipline your child, what do you do?

I would say 99 of people love them and reconcile and everything else. And so we're preaching to bruise reeds, and of course we all need conviction in the law, but after that we need the balm of the gospel.

So good for you, Cody. I want to tell our listeners, while I don't think there's a formal website for the church that you pastor, facebook .com forward slash Herod, H-E-R-R-E-I-D, Reform Church.

And so if you go to that Facebook page, and I'm on the page now, you can see some quotes, and I'm happy to say there's some wonderful Walter Marshall quotes there. And then you can see Cody and his sermons.

I think the one that I'm looking at right now is Revelation 16. Have you been preaching.

Through Revelation, Cody? Yes, yep. We're currently on Revelation 20. It takes a while for me to post things up sometimes, but yeah, we've been walking through the book of Revelation for.

This year or so. And what do you think. Your favorite commentaries on the book of Revelation.

Have been? I would say William Hendrickson's book on it, More Than Conquerors, has probably been by far my favorite. And also, there's another one, I can't think of the name of it, but there's another one that was done by a Rev. Matt Powell, which is a pastor of the RCUS.

That's a very good.

Commentary as well. Nice. Now, if someone said they're pre-mill and they look at Revelation, I mean, it lays out the introduction chapter 1, letters to the churches 2 and 3, a view from heaven 4 and 5, tribulation 6 to 18, 19, second coming, 20, millennial kingdom, 21 and 22, eternal state.

That would be the typical pre-mill view of Revelation. If you had to just in a couple minutes walk people through the amill view of Revelation, what would.

Revelation and the Amillennial Reading

You say? Well, I would explain it this way, that when it speaks of the millennium, it's not speaking in a literal thousand years. It is speaking of the time between the first coming and the second coming of Christ.

And basically, the different, like the seven bowls, the seven trumpets and so forth are basically looking at the same period of time from different perspectives. I would say similar to like a replay in a football game, right?

You see the play happen, you see another replay and another replay, and it's dealing with this struggle, the spiritual struggle that we face as believers. And the one comforting thing about Revelation is one, God is sovereign, and two, we know that we win in the end.

If you are in Christ, you are victors and we know the rest.

Of the story. Well, thank you for being on the show today, Cody. I appreciate it. First Reformed Church, did I say it right, Harriot? Yep, Harriot. Harriot, South Dakota. How often.

Do you drive up to North Dakota, by the way? I would say maybe two or three times a month, you know, whether it's going just to a small town, but basically we like to go up to Bismarck,.

So we probably do that once a month. All right. And do you hunt? Are you a hunter?

I am not a hunter. I do like fishing, but I'm not a hunting guy, although I know there's a.

Lot of people around here that are. All right. Well, thanks for being on the show today. I really appreciate it. Hopefully we can see each other face-to-face maybe at the next.

Pactum Conference. Are you planning on going there? Yes, absolutely. I think I'm going to make that a tradition, so. Amen. Well, it's good to have the Baptist and the.

Reformed get together and have sweet fellowship in spite of some minor differences. I saw a Zwingli article the other day, and it talked about, it was about Anabaptists, but he called them Baptists and said something like, beware of the subtle tricks of the devious Baptist.

So, Cody, I warn you, if you listen to Baptist, beware of the subtle devious tricks. I'll watch out. All right. Thanks for being on the show today. I appreciate it. My name is Mike Abendroth. This is No Compromise Radio Ministry.

Pastor Cody, thanks for being on.