April 19, 2022 Show with David Swartz on “A Biblical Response to Critical Race Theory”

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 19th day of April 2022.

I'm delighted to have a first -time guest today. His name is David Swartz, and he is an elder and chairman of the leadership council at Church of the

Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania, which was the host church for my recent

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio spring pastor's luncheon. Church of the

Living Christ in Loisville is also where David develops and teaches courses as part of the adult education ministry.

He recently completed a career in agricultural business management and global food production and economics.

Today he will address a biblical response to critical race theory, which is also the theme of the 2022

Reasons for Belief Apologetics Conference being conducted by Church of the

Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania. It's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, David Swartz.

Hi, Chris. It's a pleasure to be with you today. Thank you for the invitation to have this conversation.

Well, why don't you let our listeners know something about Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania.

And I can tell you right now, I'm very confident if I lived closer to Loisville, I would seriously consider joining that wonderful church.

Tell our listeners about it. Yeah, we are very fortunate to have this church in western

Perry County. It's a church of about 400 people. Started about 40 years ago by a small group of people who the

Lord saved and they became very serious about having a church and a worship experience that really glorified the

Lord. As is typical of our rural area, the first church service that was ever held 40 years ago was held on a bank barn floor with people sitting in lawn chairs.

And so from that very humble beginning, the

Lord has blessed us with tremendous saints of the

Lord, tremendous pastors He has provided for the ministry, and we just give the glory to Him for all that happens there.

And we're grateful for each person and the facility we have and the blessings of the

Lord to this day. Yeah, the facilities there are breathtaking and a perfect venue for an event like I had, the

Terpens -Iron Radio Pastors Luncheon. And I look forward to working with you and the folks there for future events, and I'm very excited about that.

Yeah, we were glad to host your event. It was a great time.

Yeah, a lot of people complimenting very highly, not only about the event itself, but your facilities, your volunteers.

Everybody that I have spoken to was just blown out of their socks, as they say, by the event, and I'm looking forward to the next one.

By the way, if anybody lives near Loisville, which is in Perry County, Pennsylvania, or you're visiting there, or you have friends, family, and loved ones in or near Loisville, look up churchofthelivingchrist .cc,

churchofthelivingchrist .cc, and God willing, I will repeat that information in a little while throughout the broadcast.

Also, as I mentioned during the initial announcements, you folks are having your annual

Reasons for Belief Apologetics Conference. The next one will be held in May of 2022.

Tell us about the origins of this conference. You're the only church that I'm aware of, at least locally, that has an annual apologetics conference, specifically on the theme of apologetics.

Why don't you tell us about that? Yeah, we started this conference in the spring of the year.

A number of years ago, we have addressed a variety of topics including, last year, archaeology, in years past, evolution and creation, and we really believe that in the post -Christian culture in which we live, the way in which we need to bring the truth of Scripture to the world and to our neighbors, we have to train folks and really help them understand a biblical response to much of the current messaging that is out there.

The way in which we do evangelism has changed dramatically in the last 20 years.

Really, as the leadership of the church, we look at these efforts in apologetics as really how, in our particular community, we do evangelism as we talk to people about these issues.

Now, would you say that apologetics could be defined biblically as being ready to give an answer for the hope that lies within us?

Absolutely. That is exactly where we are at with it. We know that all truth eventually comes from the

Word of God, that while the concept of absolute truth is a non -starter with many people today, we also see the chaos that results in every arena of our culture from the unwillingness to accept absolute truth.

So our folks, we have this conference, so our folks have the opportunity to hear from speakers who are able to put together a biblical response to some of the messaging we hear from the world today about relevant topics for family, for culture, for life.

Well, mark your calendars now for May 20th, 21st, and 22nd of this year.

That's next month, May 20th, 21st, and 22nd for the Reason for Belief Apologetics Conference at Church of the

Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania. And once again, their website is churchofthelivingchrist .cc,

churchofthelivingchrist .cc. Well, we have a tradition here, as I mentioned to you before we went on the air.

We have a tradition every time we interview a first -time guest. We have that guest give a summary of their salvation testimony, which would include the kind of religious atmosphere they were raised in, if any, and the kind of providential circumstances that our

Sovereign Lord raised up in their lives that drew them to Himself and saved them.

And I'd love to hear your story now. Thanks, Chris.

Yeah, I grew up in a family that went to church every

Sunday. My particular heritage or tradition was in the

United Methodist Church. But even in the time that I grew up, the salvation message was not really delivered in the church

I went to. And so it was not until I went to college and got involved in a campus ministry that I was really confronted with the claims of Christ and the need for personal salvation.

And it was there that, as a 20 -year -old,

I placed my trust in Christ as Savior and was really assured of my salvation.

I met my wife there also. She attended that Christian fellowship.

We were married. The Lord blessed our family with four children who are now married.

And we have grandchildren. And we homeschooled our children.

We were very interested in making sure that they understood the world from a biblical worldview and that all aspects of math and science and the humanities were taught through that biblical worldview.

It was a tremendous sacrifice, especially on my wife's part, to do that for our four children.

But our children, the Lord has been so gracious to save our children and provided godly spouses for them.

We are just thankful to the Lord for all that. One of the formative events after I was saved, a year or two, the

Lord took my mother home from cancer. And the pain of that really made me, walking through that dark time, really made me evaluate what my priorities were in life.

And I understood the need that I was such a novice in the

Bible and that I really needed to dedicate my life to the Lord.

As I was willing to do that, I looked back over these testaments and the Lord provided men who helped to school and shepherd me.

I've had no formal theological training in seminary.

I've had a lot of godly examples, mentors and shepherds who the

Lord has provided. And you know, Chris, when you look back over your life and you count all of those blessings, they are without price that the

Lord gives you. Amen. Without a doubt. Well, let's get into the theme of the day, which is the theme of your 2022

Reason for Belief Apologetics Conference. Why did you select the theme of critical race theory or a biblical response to critical race theory?

I know that a no -brainer reason would be that it's constantly in the media.

Every single day there is some kind of reference to it, either pro or con, depending upon what media you are involved in.

But tell us what was the compelling reason where you said to yourself,

I've got to address this in the next Reason for Belief Apologetics Conference and I've got to get

Joe Green to speak with me on this. Well, we have a committee of folks in the church, some elders and others who plan and work on this conference.

And they are always looking for topics that would be of benefit to our folks.

And you know, this issue, this critical race issue, all of these issues around race have been so politicized and so highly charged that in one sense you want to not even address it because you just sense the heaviness of it all.

On the other hand, the reason we did decide to address it is because it has been an issue that is actually dividing churches.

And we actually evangelical thought leaders who are responding to the concerns raised by this critical race theory in ways that we do not think are biblical.

And we think it's a tool in which the church is being divided and so we want to address it.

And that's really why this topic came to the forefront. Amen. And I think that it is an extremely important issue.

I have heard some people say, when I've had many programs and interviews on this subject, people have said to me, why are you introducing politics so often onto your show?

And my response is, this is far beyond any political issue.

This is threatening the very gospel itself. There are issues involved in this that are actually salvific and which involve the nature of man, that all men are conceived in the womb totally depraved.

And there is not one race, the white race or any other race, that corners the market or is the exclusive party guilty of the sin of bigotry and hatred.

No matter what color skin you are, no matter what ethnicity you come from or nationality, the human race, and that is the only race that exists, the human race is plagued with racism globally and it seems that the only race that the leftist realm wants to point to is those with less melanin content in their skin.

So I think this is a very important subject, far beyond any political discussion.

Well, we have addressed this many times, but why don't you start with a definition, as others have, because I don't think that we could bring this up too often, especially in the current climate of the church and the world, in regard to this.

Why don't you define critical race theory for us? Well, as probably many of your other speakers have talked about, critical race theory is actually part of that critical theory which views the world as a perpetual conflict between those who oppress the world through various means and those who are oppressed by it.

And this is worked out through critical race theory in those who feel oppressed being legitimized to throw off that oppression that they see, and those who are oppressors, those who are supposed to, as a way of atonement, give up their positions of power or authority or prestige or whatever is viewed as causing oppression.

And, you know, there are legitimate concerns among poor communities and dis -immunities that need to be addressed in our country, but from a biblical point of view, we do not believe that critical race theory is the way to address those concerns.

First of all, because we believe it is actually a heresy because it so opposes what we see as a biblical worldview.

And it's so, as it's adopted by churches and especially the evangelical church, there is this disillusion of the concept of individual sin and that the response to people who are the oppressed through critical race theory ends up being, well, actually it ends up being more of a works salvation.

And so we just see this as a heresy. And in the end, that spiritual fact is of much greater concern than any physical consideration because it opposes the eternal destiny that's in play.

Yeah, and it is claimed by those who are advocates and proponents of critical race theory and all things under the umbrella of the social justice warrior movement that racism is a sin that white people can never fully repent from.

We, by nature of being white, by nature of having a low melanin content in our skin, we are guilty no matter what we say or do according to them.

And even if our ancestors did not own slaves, and by the way,

I don't believe that that even is a reason to hold the progeny of slave owners responsible for something that their ancestors did.

Because if you were to do that, you'd have to find out what tribes, black folks that are making these accusations, you'd have to find out what tribes they, from which they have come, where their origins lie.

Because their ancestors may have been involved in selling their fellow countrymen into the slave trade to begin with.

So you have people who are evil on both sides of the coin, both the

Africans themselves and the slave traders who purchased these slaves.

But even if you were to somehow, in some convoluted fashion, come up with a way to defend that those with ancestors that were slave owners are responsible for the sins of their fathers and grandfathers and great -grandfathers, there are many white people whose ancestors were not slave owners.

My ancestors, on my father's side, immigrated from Scandinavia in the 19th century after the

Civil War, and they settled in, primarily in Brooklyn, New York, and Rhode Island.

There were no slaves there. None of my ancestors had slaves on my father's side, unless you go far enough back into their history to the

Vikings, and the Vikings' slaves were white. So you can't blame my father's side of the family for owning and mistreating black slaves.

And my mother's side of the family immigrated to the United States in the early 1900s from Poland.

And there are countless examples like that where just because a person is white doesn't mean that they have any slave owners in their ancestry.

So this really boils down to slander. It boils down to the thinking more highly of oneself than you should.

That would be those who are proponents of the critical race theory, who are people of color, and they somehow think that they are superior because they say that they do not possess guilt for the sin of bigotry and racism.

They are devoid of that somehow in their minds. And they also, these proponents of this heresy, as you called it, are really dividing.

Those who profess to be Christian are dividing the body of Christ in an ungodly and slanderous and evil manner.

And it is mind -boggling that some folks that I really highly respected and interviewed on this program a decade ago, who were at one time, these notions were never even a thought in their head, are now among the leaders of this movement.

That is what is really mind -boggling to me, not that those who are leftists outside of the church or in leftist mainline groups, mainline denominations, but there are people who are not only theologically in many ways conservative and theologically reformed, as I am, who are proponents of this garbage.

But I don't know what you have to say in response to anything that I just said, if you agree with all of it or some of it or what have you.

Well, yeah, the main concern is what we see as that the

Christians who are involved in this critical race theory in some respect are repeating the heresy that we saw in the late 1800s and early 1900s as Christians responded to the real critical social needs that were caused by the

Industrial Revolution in America and in England, Great Britain.

And, you know, the issues of child labor and the issues of extreme poverty and health care and education and the really desperate ways in which people lived in many of the slums, the immigrants who came to our country and slain at that time.

And, you know, the church at that time was deluded, portions of the church were deluded into this idea that, this idea of social redemption, of trying to improve society would somehow bring us all into this right relationship with God as a whole group and that we could almost establish, you know,

God's kingdom here on earth if we just solved all of these social ills. And as you study that part of history and you see the heresy of where the church went wrong, you know,

I mean, in 1889 Spurgeon preached a very memorable sermon from his pulpit in London.

And he was preaching, he used the parable of the lost sheep and Jesus going out, the shepherd

I mean, going out for that and making an effort to go find that one sheep.

And he preached on this in addressing

Christian socialism. He talks about we can never move away from the idea of individual salvation, that yes, we desire many, many people to come to the kingdom, to come to a knowledge of Christ, but that is done one by one by individual salvation, by people realizing their need for a

Savior and repenting of their sins. And he was addressing the heresy that was so prevalent in the church at that time as the church was trying to address the social needs.

And we see the same heresy and the same made by church leaders today in trying to address legitimate concerns in our society but in doing it in a way that detracts or adds a works type of righteousness to the

Gospel message. So that's why this topic goes into the church.

It is a heresy we've seen before and come back. And we have to go to our first station break right now if you have a question of your own.

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God for you. We are now back with our guest today.

And this brother, David Swartz, is an elder at Church of the

Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania, and is one of the speakers at that church's annual apologetics conference coming up in May on critical race theory.

And that is called the Reason for Belief Apologetics Conference. And if you have any questions of your own on critical race theory, send them in to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state and country of residence.

We have an anonymous listener who says he's remaining or she is remaining anonymous because of the fact that many of his or her friends are deeply rooted in this current heresy.

And the anonymous listener wants to know, how do you approach this issue with others that seem to be in lockstep with this heresy without inflaming further division and hateful disputes?

Well, and that may be impossible with certain people. I mean, the gospel itself doesn't guarantee that those that you declare it to are going to remain your friends, are going to remain loving to you, etc.

But we can go through steps not to add to the offense that the gospel has.

The gospel is offensive already in and of itself. But what are your answers to this?

Yeah, well, this topic does make for very difficult conversations with folks.

As we said before, even within the family of faith, even within those who claim

Christ as their Savior, if these circle of friends of this color are believers, certainly you can go to the

Word and talk through why critical race theory is unbiblical.

For those outside of our family of faith,

I think you have to talk to them about, point out to them some of the failings of critical race theory in ways that you see or that you can talk to them about.

It certainly may not stop the objections. You know, one of the concerns about critical race theory is that we have this proximate sin or we have this proximate guilt as groups of people over what has happened in the past.

And that is certainly not, while that may be classified as social justice, that is certainly not the way that our justice system has been based in this country or even in many other countries.

And obviously it's not biblical. We are responsible for our own actions and our own sins, our own acts which are attributable and specific to us and not responsible for some proximate guilt.

And you can ask people, how would you like to be brought into a court of law and sentenced for the guilt of somebody else having an accident on the highway and killing someone?

Try to show the fallacy in this idea of proximate guilt.

That's one area to talk about. Another area to talk about is the way in which the proponents of critical race theory have crafted such circular arguments that no one can have an honest debate or discussion with them.

Because the moment you do not agree with them, you are immediately assigned with the worst of motivations.

You're immediately a racist. And besides the fact that that is not tolerant, and toleration has been a foundational pillar of American society since the founding of the country, this idea that you can't even have a discussion or a debate without you proving your evil intent is simply not appropriate.

And it's simply a way to shut down discussion. And so this caller may be able to approach the conversation in that way and say, do you really think this is an appropriate way to move forward where you do not allow anyone to even have a discussion?

Right. Of course with believers... Or professing believers.

Pardon me? Or professing believers, because not everybody who says they're a Christian involved in this dispute.

I'm of the opinion that not everybody is truly regenerate. Yeah, well, correct.

But someone who says they're a believer, you know, of course among the critical race theory proponents is this issue of intersectionality, which means that you have varying credibility to speak about issues depending upon how many oppressed groups you belong to.

And the more oppressed you are, or the more oppressed groups, or the more experience in oppression you have, then you have credibility to speak.

And someone who does not belong to those oppressed groups, therefore, must be quiet.

And they do not have any wisdom, and they do not have any answers. And, you know, for believers we have to say, wait a minute, our ultimate authority is the

Bible. The Bible is the truth. The Bible is the basis on which we guide our life.

And so anyone, regardless of skin color, regardless of background, regardless of economic status, if you are a believer, you have the same access to wisdom as anyone else.

So this idea that there is this gradient of people that are allowed to speak to this issue based on their background is simply, or that some truth is more truth than others, that is really an anti -biblical concept.

Yes, and we have to remember that leftists and liberals are two different groups of people.

Liberals used to champion, or at least claim to champion, freedom of speech, tolerance of those who disagree with you, and many other things that those in the progressive left today are adamantly opposed to.

In fact, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., with whom I have very radical and serious theological differences, but one of the things he championed that I agree with is that we are supposed to treat people not according to the color of their skin, but according to the content of their character.

And this seems to be a heresy, declared a heresy by the modern left.

And I would tell these people that may erupt into a rage when you are trying to have a reasonable discussion with them and you're presenting your oppositions.

I would ask them, is it loving to only have conversations with people who agree with you?

Is it loving to never correct someone who you believe is in error?

And if that's true, why are you doing it to me? It's amazing how often people who are inflamed with rage when you state something that involves your desire to correct others you believe are in error, they fail to recognize that they are disagreeing with you and therefore are guilty of the same thing that they are accusing you of.

So disagreement is not in and of itself a bad thing and can be something that is the height of love, especially when there is risk involved.

When you are opposing something that is cherished by somebody that you really care about, whose friendship you treasure, whose love you claim as one of your most cherished gifts, you're risking losing that person as a friend.

They may disassociate you as a family member. So disagreeing with them, when you know that the matter is serious enough and may even involve eternal consequences, if it involves a false gospel, then telling them that you disagree can be the height of love.

Am I right? Yeah, and you are really saying the same thing that our senior pastor of Church, Doron Ray, recently said, where he said,

Jesus is always loving, but he's not always kind. Yes, in fact, let me pick up right on that point, because we have to go to our midway break.

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Don't go away. We're going to be right back with David Swartz in our critical conversation on critical race theory right after these messages from our sponsors.

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Always mention that you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Before I return to David Swartz, our guest today, and our critical examination of critical race theory, we have just a couple more announcements to make that are very important.

If you love this show, folks, you don't want it to disappear from the airwaves, you look forward to listening to it live every day or frequently, or listening to the podcast at a later time, if you really consider this a part of your weekly habits and traditions that you enjoy and that bless you and that edify you, and you don't want them to stop, please go to ironsharpensironradio .com,

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Please do not do this. When I founded this radio show in 2005, one of the main reasons

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Earth. In fact, I just got an email moments ago from Baton Rouge, Louisiana, from Nicholas, who is looking for a biblically sound church, and I'll get to that after the program today,

Nicholas. But if you are in that category of people, you need a biblically sound church, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put, I need a church in the subject line, and that also includes, obviously, if you have family, friends, and loved ones who do not have a biblically sound church that they call their home,

I can help, God willing, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put, I need a church in the subject line.

That's also the email address to send in a question to our guest, David Swartz. He is one of the elders at a church that has become near and dear to my heart,

Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania, which is in Perry County, Pennsylvania, and that is the church that was the host church for my most recent

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Pastors Luncheon, and I am so eagerly looking forward to many future events with them.

But we are discussing the theme of their May Apologetics Conference, a reason for faith that we hope that you will attend.

It's actually called Reason for Belief, I'm sorry. Reason for Belief Apologetics Conference is also on the theme,

A Biblical Response to Critical Race Theory. So if you have a question, send it to chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com, and before I go to any of our listener questions, Dave, continue what you were saying before the break.

You were quoting your senior pastor, a brother in Christ who I have grown to quickly love and hope to have a long future of getting to know him better and forming an even more solid friendship with him.

Pastor Doran Ray, you were quoting him, and why don't you pick up where you left off? Well, sure,

Chris, and thanks again for allowing us to talk about this topic at our

Apologetics Conference, and just again, we were very pleased to be the host site for your pastor's luncheon, and we look forward to continuing to work for you.

It was a great day, and appreciate all that you did to make that event happen. Getting back to this quote from Pastor Doran Ray, he's been preaching expository through the

Book of Matthew in recent months, and he talks about this theme that Jesus is always loving, but he's not always kind, and what he means by that is that Jesus does not always placate people.

He does not always coddle people, but he is loving because he is concerned for their eternal destiny and their understanding of the authority of God and developing a right relationship through salvation in Christ.

And so at times, his message may not seem kind, but it is always loving towards the person.

And Pastor Doran at times brings this point home that we are often too interested in being kind, and therefore at times we are not loving as individuals.

That is exactly right. We are more concerned over the feelings of people very often than we are over their eternal destiny.

We are more important, we find more important, I should say, maintaining our friendship with them and maintaining their kindness toward us and their love for us than we are in our consideration of honoring and obeying and loving

God and having him look upon us with favor. We care more about the favor of men, even lost men, even enemies of the gospel.

We are more concerned with their appreciation of us than we are concerned over how

God is viewing what we are saying and doing. And that often,

I think, is motivated perhaps sometimes unconsciously by fearing men more than God and fearing the loss of some benefit that we have.

Of course, there are many people who sin by denying their faith in the very livelihood that earns them money.

Obviously, I'm not trying to promote those that steal from their employees by using their working hours as a mission field on an ongoing basis by not doing what they're being paid to do and evangelizing or talking about the gospel and so forth.

But there's a difference between only speaking about those things when it is appropriate, like during lunch breaks and that kind of thing, coffee breaks, before and after work.

There are people who, by the very nature of what they do for a living, is an insult to the church and to Christ himself.

So we have to make sure that we always put God before men. We have a listener, and I believe it's a first -time listener.

Oh, but by the way, let me say to our anonymous listener, if indeed this was the first time you've ever contacted us with a question, you have won a free

New American Standard Bible, compliments of the publishers of the New American Standard Bible, and compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com.

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We will obviously not divulge your name over the air since you requested to be anonymous, so don't worry about that.

But if you would like a Bible, send us those details, and we'll have cvbbs .com

ship that out to you. And I think this is also a first -time questioner, so the same would go for you.

Jay in Landisburg, Pennsylvania, he writes, Who are the previously conservative church leaders who are embracing

CRT? If you are going to generically complain about them, name names.

I guess that was an insult to me, maybe. Or a rebuke, I should say. A chastisement.

CRT seems to me to be a catch -all term that was picked up by conservative media to stir up a moral panic.

I don't see anybody in the conservative church leaders that I listen to embracing it.

Okay. Well, do you have an answer to that before I do? Well, this is this has been a response to concern over critical race theory that this is somehow a straw man that has been erected by conservative voices in order to somehow implicate folks who have more progressive ideologies or progressive goals, progressive political goals.

And I would certainly say that that is not true. There is, you know, this is not a conspiracy among conservative leaders in the church or in the country.

But this really is a response to ideologies that are in favor with many in the country.

When you read and listen to some of the leading lights of critical race theory like Ibram Kendi, you understand that this this ideology or this world, it's actually a worldview, this worldview is in direct opposition to biblical worldview and therefore the church needs to have an answer for it.

Now, obviously, Kendi would not be a conservative or a professing conservative. No, that is true.

I was more I was addressing more in the second part of his question about the fact that it seems like we're just agitating here over over something that we ourselves have made up.

But certainly, Chris, you can respond to the leaders who have embraced parts or all of the tenets of critical race theory.

Yeah, let me let me state that the people that I know are definitely movers and shakers and leaders under the umbrella of the social justice warrior movement.

I have to be careful about not publicly identifying every aspect of those things to folks when

I am not an expert about how thoroughly they echo and applaud and perpetuate all of the things under that umbrella.

Especially in regard to areas that involve homosexuality and extreme levels of feminism and so on.

But two men that I have had on this program who I at one time really viewed as extremely valuable leaders in the church whose ministries

I promoted. One is Thabiti Anyabwile. If anybody listening would like to get an email of an interview

I conducted with him a decade ago you will see how he was 180 degrees on the opposite side of what later became known as the social justice warrior movement.

Now he is perpetuating and echoing sentiments that seem to be foreign to his thinking only a decade ago.

And one person who I have not had on this program who basically has been the right hand man of somebody that I have interviewed

Ligon Duncan is Jamar Tisby and Ligon Duncan who has been his assistant for quite a while in ministry and I believe

Ligon has been and maybe continues to be his mentor in some sense. Ligon is a part of what would be called conservative reformed

Presbyterian theology and teaching. A very likable man,

I'm speaking of Ligon who seems to be extremely humble and so on but Jamar has been on the other side of the spectrum been very outspoken in his sharp critique and even slanderous accusations of others about being racists and so on.

And Anthony Bradley is another person that I have had on this program a decade ago who was completely 180 degrees just like Thabiti Nwile in opposition to things that have become main elements of the social justice warrior movement.

So in fact one of the things that is very clear in my memory about Anthony is that by the way

Anthony knew that I was a Reformed Baptist a confessional Reformed Baptist when he accepted my invitation to be interviewed a decade ago.

When I asked him what his response is or was back then to black individuals who or even white individuals who promote the concept that black people cannot be guilty of the sin of racism because they are an oppressed people and only those that are in positions of power can truly be guilty of the sin of racism.

His answer to that was in a very loud voice on my program is that they're morons.

So he has come a far way from when he was on my show and the reason

I brought up his foreknowledge of me being a Reformed Baptist he now believes and he has said publicly that confessional

Reformed Baptists, those that adhere to the 1689 London Baptist Confession as I do, are amongst the most despicable and vile professing

Christians on the planet and perhaps somebody who has the exact word for word quote can send that to me or I'll look it up.

But I would actually like to have those folks, those men on my program to have as friendly a debate as they possibly can conduct.

So there's the answer to that. I don't want to go any further in naming names.

It's not because I'm being cowardly about it. I just don't want to be guilty of slander against those that may have developed in certain ways in their thinking and understanding of this topic.

They may have changed. They may have repented of certain things. So I don't want to include too broad or large of a group of people and names when it comes to that.

So there you go. Jay in Landisburg, Pennsylvania, and even though you gave me that bit of chastisement, and by the way, feel free always, and this goes to all my listeners, feel free to write in a rebuke or chastisement when you think

I'm in error. In fact, I wish more people would do that because the vast majority of times, people who send in questions are in agreement with everything that's being said, and it when you have the little back -and -forth give -and -take kind of expression of disagreement between myself, guests, and listeners, it can actually make for more interesting radio.

But as iron sharpens iron goes, I would love to hear from more people that do disagree with me and my guests.

But, Jay, even though you've rebuked me, you still may have a free

New American Standard Bible if you provide for me your mailing address in Landisburg, Pennsylvania, and we'll have

CVVBS .com ship that out to you. Let's see here, we have another question.

We have Arnie in Perry County, and Arnie, I hope that you come to this conference since you're in Perry County.

Arnie says, What do you think are the main elements of critical race theory that are an offense to God that are actually and absolutely damnable rather than debatable areas?

Are you there, brother? Yes, I am. I was actually trying to decide where to start.

Well, let me, while you're thinking, I'm going to repeat our email address if anybody else wants to join us with a question. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com

C -H -R -I -S A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter.

Okay, so go ahead. Yeah, you know, the one of the real issues involves the question of authority.

And the greatest commandment is, you know, to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind. And what that really entails is a recognition of God's authority over all aspects of life, including over your own.

And without getting too far into past psychology stuff, we know that, you know, in today's society, the only authority that counts is self.

Basically, Rousseau has won in the argument in the secular marketplace, or the pagan marketplace, and that deception where the only authority that matters is myself, and how myself feels, and how

I express myself in all areas. That is the primary factor in life.

That is part of this critical race theory.

You know, I feel oppressed. I, you know, and what this ends up doing is it denies the authority of God.

It denies the while critical race theory may surface legitimate concerns in our society that should be addressed, the answers they have are unbiblical, and they deny

God's authority over all of life. And as a result, I think that is actually the biggest affront that this theory has from a biblical, compared to a biblical world view.

Well, thank you Arnie, and one of the things that I am convinced of in regard to one of the major elements of critical race theory, or the advocates of critical race theory, and what they demand, and everything under the social justice warrior movement, which includes reparations.

And this would also include any sympathy towards socialism and Marxism, and communism, and there are varying degrees of open embrace of those things.

I know that there are people involved in promoting social justice warrior ideas and critical race theory who claim that they are not

Marxist, socialist, or communist. But even the demanding of reparations is number one, before it happens, before it's actually realized and comes true, it's coveting thy neighbor's goods, and if it does happen, if it becomes law, it's stealing from your neighbor.

Because as we've already said, not everybody in this country who is white had slaveholders in their ancestry, and I don't even think it's legitimate to penalize those that do have grandfathers and great grandfathers who were slaveholders in this fashion, just as you wouldn't hold any black person or person of any skin color responsible for what their father or great grandfather did, and we can go back many years into their ancestry, we would not want to hold anybody responsible for the flaws, sins, and even crimes of their forefathers.

So you are, at this point, you're coveting what these people, known as white folk, you're coveting what any of them may own, and if these reparations actually were to be made law, you'd be stealing.

Because remember, folks, when people use terms like the government's money, the government doesn't have any money that isn't the money that once belonged to the citizens of this country.

People, don't they have a total bizarre misconception about the government actually having money that is theirs to begin with, that they are doling out as some form of act of benevolence to others?

It's our money, isn't it? Yes, it is, and since you brought up this idea of reparations, this is another concept within this whole umbrella of topics that we're discussing with idea of reparations is now another concept that has divided

Christians. There are those who are writing that in support, claiming that the

Bible supports reparations, and I do not believe that it does.

Other than those that are themselves guilty of theft, like Zacchaeus?

Right, and so the story of Zacchaeus in the

Gospels is one section of Scripture where that pro -reparationist would use to say that the

Bible supports the concept of reparations. Well, yes it does in returning things that have been unlawfully taken from an individual.

It's a key sign of genuine repentance, because putting your money where your mouth is, because money is among those things that human beings care about most.

If they are truly guilty of theft, that must be a sign of genuine repentance, at least, at the very least, the attempt to make reparation, and obviously there are occasions when somebody has through their sin become so financially devastated it's impossible for them to financially make a reparation, but they are indebted in some way to those victims that they harmed.

But Zacchaeus wasn't paying people back because of what his father, grandfather, or great -grandfather did.

That is true, yes. And that's why I do not think that that text is an appropriate one to support the concept of reparations as it's being discussed within this topic of racism in America.

The other Scripture that's used by the proponents of reparations is

Ezra 6. In that discussion where Darius provides resources to build the temple and he actually tells local leaders to use tax dollars to support the building of the temple.

That is one section of Scripture as well as the section in Exodus where the

Israelites take the wealth of Egypt with them. And in both those cases I do not think those sections of Scripture support this concept of reparations as it's currently being bandied about within the political circles of America because in those cases those resources were designed to be used,

God ordained that to be used for a specific purpose, the building of the temple.

Or the building of the tabernacle. But in Ezra it was the building of the temple as the people returned from their exile.

And it was not a concept in Ezra 6 where people were personally enriched by Darius' decree.

So, you know, I find some difficulty with using those texts to support this idea of reparations as it's currently being discussed.

Amen. And we're going to our final break. It's going to be a lot more brief than the other breaks. If you have a question for David Swartz, please send it in fairly quickly because we are rapidly running out of time.

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Welcome back. Dave Swartz we have Joseph in South Central Pennsylvania who wants to know don't you think that very often those who are professing conservatives whether they are in the church or outside of the church undermine or downplay the serious importance of providing for the needs of the poor just as James insisted was a critical area that gave evidence to saving faith in his epistle.

Well, I can't speak for all conservative voices about their view of the needs of the poor

I would say my personal view is that there are legitimate needs of poor people and of poor communities that need to be addressed.

Having said that I do think that there are many conservative voices who have great great concern and for the plight of some of these communities and people that are members of those communities but the answer to social issues are often very different from what is promoted by many folks in government and in our society.

Some answers conservatives would look on some answers as being helpful today but not helpful for the long -term resolution of the problems that the community faces and the solutions that some conservatives would offer are designed to while trying to care for the needs today really interested in more long -term solutions.

I believe, if I'm not mistaken, you are talking about the evils of the welfare system versus those things that involve incentives for people to seek and acquire employment

I mean even the bible tells us if a man doesn't work he shall not eat so obviously there are policies that can cripple people and make them reliant upon the state just to provide for their physical needs and giving them actual incentives very often not to seek employment.

Well that is the outworking, that can be the outworking of a continual welfare state and there is no doubt that there is some level of welfare short term or otherwise that is helpful to many people when they find themselves in distressing situations but when you look at bible believing churches in some of these communities they have programs not just to provide food and other benevolence to people in need but they also have job fairs and employment skills training and they have special programs for dads to help men who find themselves as fathers without any maybe any training from family or potentially good role models they are trying to help them to provide that needed leadership in the home and these are some of the answers

I think that I certainly think are valuable to those communities and sadly are sometimes not part of a national conversation about the needs of those communities we have

BB in Cumberland County Pennsylvania who says how do you respond to those who are promoting critical race theory and social justice warrior ideology who use acts 245 as a proof text that proves that socialism is a better way for Christians to live and let me for those of our listeners who don't have their bibles open or don't remember that text that is a very famous text in the scriptures where we read and they meaning the disciples or those in the church would sell their property and possessions and share them with all to the extent that anyone had need sure this is one of the text that is used that supposedly shows that the bible supports socialism or that the church should be very favorable to socialistic economic systems

I think the leftist Michael Moore the movie producer and leftist activist he very often uses his rhetoric in an apologetic form where he is actually identifying his views as Christian I think he may be a

Catholic I don't know but he will try to shame Christians with these kinds of text yeah and the answer is that there is a number of answers to folks who want to use this particular verse one is that there was still a very strong concept of private property in the early church you know in Acts 5 when

Peter has this conversation with Ananias about the fact that he sinned by lying and keeping part of the proceeds of the land he sold back he says

Peter says to Ananias well it remained unsold did it not remain your own and after it was sold was it not under your own control and so there is still this idea of private property very much in view and I would also say that to use that Acts 2 verse to support socialism is an error because socialism as an economic system in our world today is directed by the government under more of a command economy and here this charity or this care for others was personally motivated by the

Holy Spirit from believers to believers and it was voluntary in fact the reason why it was a fruit of their love of the brethren is that it was voluntary it wasn't forced upon right and so there was no some people would be harsh about socialism and say that it's a state sponsored coercion of wealth transfer however you want to define socialism

I do not see this verse as equaling what we call socialism today and therefore

I think it's a fallacy to say that this verse supports socialism and therefore the church should be socialistic in nature based on this verse of Scripture.

And we're out of time and if anybody wants to attend the Reason for Belief Apologetics Conference at Church of the

Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania go to churchofthelivingchrist .cc churchofthelivingchrist .cc

I want to thank you so much Dave for being an excellent guest today I want to thank everybody who wrote in questions and those who listened silently and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater