July 1, 2003

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now at 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 and now with today's topic. Here is James white.

Open Phones and a Planned Look at Charles Templeton

Well, good morning and welcome to the dividing line. My name is James white. We are live here on a Tuesday morning. I didn't think I was going to be here, but Things worked out where I was able to well try to get some, you know, that stuff you got to do with bureaucrats done and Unfortunately didn't get it done.

But hey, I'm here anyways, and you may or may not like that. You may or may not appreciate that. But then again if you're listening you've done so voluntarily to begin with therefore you probably I guess Are happy that we are here live today for some reason some of you like to have it live and not Like it to be memorex.

So we are here at 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3341 no, we have not taken the time to look at the keypad to find out if we could spell anything with that I imagine you probably could come up with something and it might be easy to remember 334 well see one messes everything up because it doesn't have any letters that messes the whole thing up right off.

Well, you just I guess you have one at the end. It means your number one or something. I don't know. We'll have to glockenspiel spells glockenspiel. Okay. All right, well anyway. Sort of open phones day.

I have one thing to discuss because like I said, I didn't think I was going to be here and but we'll take your phone calls if you'd like to Participate in the program today at 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. I got a email.

But I get lots of emails. I mentioned the email last week. We invited I was it a week ago today, I think it was a week ago today we invited a gentleman to join us who says I'm a liar and and that he would.

That he could refute Calvinism, but it would be too simple to do. So it's too simplistic and all that kind of stuff and We you know and and so that that email has emailed back and forth escalated to the point where it got really silly and started sounding very Ruckman esque because you You very frequently I have this happen all the time.

When when King James only advocates get frustrated and angry they start calling me Jimmy. Don't call me that I don't like it. It's disrespectful. And so since they know that then they start calling you Jimmy or buddy or something like that and that that happened it is like well I sort of expected that type of thing to happen.

But I got an email and I don't exactly know what exactly what prompted it or anything like that. But I got an email and someone was basically saying why won't you deal with individuals such as these and he cited a a refutation of Lee Strobel's the case for Christ.

Well, I'm one of the few people on the planet that hasn't bothered to read it. I haven't bothered to read it because it comes from a a Apologetic perspective that I would not embrace to begin with it is purely Evidential in its orientation.

It's based upon an Arminian Understanding of the gospel and the presentation of the gospel and when it comes to dealing with issues like that I think you must deal with the issue of worldviews and presuppositions and As such I'm like, well, why should I read it?

Because I'm really not you know, that's not my thing and you know, so How why should I review something like that When it's really I would probably have to join with it in refuting certain elements of You know of that particular Perspective, you know, why should I do that?

But then another one was mentioned and I had a vague recollection somewhere in the back of my mind of Having heard about this book and it probably Intriguingly enough was from listening to Lee Strobel on the Bible Answer Man broadcast at one point because I guess in one of his books He talks about Charles Templeton and So this email said why don't you review something like? farewell to God my reasons for rejecting the Christian faith by Charles Templeton and That sounded you know, that struck a nerve in the sense that well, you know, this would be somewhat more representational of Your standard Argumentation that is that people would be encountering on the bus on the train on the plane wherever it might be.

And so we Jumped online and I have it sitting here and it was interesting in reading the reviews on The website where I ordered it from even the reviewers who are friendly toward it said now Be aware of the fact that Templeton does not interact With any of the apologetic responses that have already been offered to most of his arguments and that immediately made me go Great, that's that's good.

But I think it it may may be useful to Review some of these issues and just in the sense of asking the question Here was an individual who was very active in religious things Very active in religious activities went to seminary For many years what happened?

What what is the process here? What can we learn from it? And given some of the things I've already read in looking through this book I think maybe we might be able to come up with some interesting insights because of that However, we do have one call that has come in and I would invite your others the other calls, too It's not like I have an entire, you know thesis to develop in regards to a Templeton's book I just want to look at a few elements of it.

So Definitely want to invite your participation at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one so let's go ahead and take our first phone call and talk to Harry back in a State that I lived in for six years.

I moved out just in time to avoid glowing from Three Mile Island and and Lived in in Camp Hill, Pennsylvania right outside of Harrisburg So let's talk to Harry Harry who is not in Harrisburg, but Harry in Pennsylvania.

Hello, Harry.

Hi, how are you James doing pretty good? Oh good. Well, I have a question. I've been listening to a few of your debates with father Pacwa and James Madrid. I think it was and I'm Patrick Madrid. Well Patrick Madrid.

That's right. And I am Presently Engaging in a debate with the when a man that's read all the Owen stuff and the Calvin stuff and Luther stuff. And he's a converted Roman Catholic and he's a pretty bright guy.

He's a surgeon and.

And so let me back up at the same. He's a converted Roman Catholic. Yeah. What he what he calls Protestantism. Okay, so he is converted to Catholicism.

And so anyway, we're going to sit down and sort of debate this thing. I didn't realize how in-depth a lot of this stuff was and I thank God for all the stuff that you if you've written. I'm reading sola scriptura to book you you co-authored and The letters and some of your debates and I guess one of the one of the questions that I had Harry.

Let me ask you really quickly. Have you seen the article on our website? Entitled a Dialogue on solo scriptura, it's on the Roman Catholic page. Yeah. Okay. All right. I've read it two or three times.

Okay I just want to make yeah help helps me to answer your question if I know what you've had a chance to look at. Oh, okay. Good.

Well, one of my questions is and this was one of the things that were brought up as far as when was the canon? Completed for Roman Catholicism and I had always thought it was the Council of Trent 1546.

It was one day is when they finally formulated the apocryphal books and putting them in and they had to know that there were other Councils and in your letter you said that they were proven provincial council.

Mm-hmm, and I guess my question is What is a provincial council? Is that some kind of a sub council to a Vatican Council? And and why would that not be? Finding or if I did mention, well, they were only provincial.

What would I actually be saying? Okay.

Let's let me give you a little background so that everyone listening can sort of follow along that the question has to do when Did Rome dogmatically and see there? There's there's it's important to recognize the difference between talking about something that has been Dogmatically defined that is de fide by faith.

It is it is the highest level of Certainty and Doctrinal authority within the Roman Catholic system is if it has been dogmatically defined by the church now. It's important Remember a Pope can teach something as doctrine or the church can even teach something as doctrine though.

Some would say only for a limited period of time without it being dogmatically Required to believe that for example Popes have taught for quite some time that Mary is is Co-redemptrix co-mediatrix with Christ, but that has not been dogmatically defined.

And so there's a difference between between those two terms. And so we're talking about is when did Rome Dogmatically defined the canon and the reason this comes up in discussions on sola scriptura is Many Roman Catholics will argue that without that dogmatic Certainty Concerning the nature of the canon you cannot have any scripture at all if you do not absolutely have that Certainty that comes from dogma that that this is the canon of scripture then scripture cannot function whatsoever.

And that of course subjects scripture then to the higher authority of the church and and results in the denial of sola scriptura, etc Etc. So the assertion that I have made that was mentioned just a few moments ago is Certainly recognized by the the Catholic Encyclopedia and by most Roman Catholics themselves that the first dogmatic definition of the canon of the Scriptures the Roman Catholic Church uses today Came in April of 1546.

Now there were previous councils. Specifically what we normally hear is that of Carthage and Hippo at the be at the end of the fourth century. Now Carthage and Hippo had the Old Testament canon. That the Council of Trent used with one exception and this is what a lot of folks are not aware of.

There is one difference. They actually defined a book differently back then than they do today and the people at Trent I just don't think we're aware of that particular fact and as a result There's actually a difference there that most Roman Catholics are completely unfamiliar with and this is Discussed rather fully by Bill Webster in volume 2 of the Holy Scripture series the three volumes that that is available at ailment org, so but the difference between a provincial council and an ecumenical council and ecumenical meaning worldwide, which of course after a certain number of centuries is somewhat of a Of a misnomer in the sense that especially after the division between East and West Rome continued to talk about having ecumenical councils.

But in reality, they didn't have ecumenical councils because there was a division in the church. But since they said they had left the the East had left the church then, you know, it didn't really matter any longer and so those councils in Carthage and Hippo were called provincial because they only had a province wide or a limited scope as To the authority that they exercised in fact Carthage and Hippo were pretty much under the control of Augustine and most people who've studied up on the the history of Canon discussions know that Augustine and Jerome had a tremendous amount of disagreement between themselves on the issue of the extent of the Canon especially specifically the Apocryphal books and in fact, I discussed this I'm not sure if you're aware of this back in March here on the dividing line.

We were going to have a Roman Catholic join us and do a debate on the Apocrypha. But he wasn't able to make it and so I just did an entire program on nothing. But the issue of the Canon the Apocrypha and I went through Various early church fathers that believe that this that and the other thing and so you might find that to be somewhat.

You know how what which one that would be specifically that I I think it I'd have to get on to Gate .com and look at the listing there. But I think it was either like the 13th or the 20th of March on that and I'm going off top my head there I don't even have my well.

There's my palm pilot. I think it was it was it was a Thursday evening and So, let me go back here March. Yeah, look at that. He was the 13th the 20th of March and I discussed the issue of the Apocrypha and if you just listen to the first few minutes of the real audio file, you'll hear me talking about well We're supposed to have had a debate tonight, but it didn't work out etc Etc, and that'll let you know you've got the right one.

And so there's a there's a lot of information on that particular subject that we presented there but those provincial councils then one of the the problems that immediately comes up in that particular situation is that Later clear church leaders, for example Gregory The the Bishop of Rome who was Bishop of Rome a hundred years later Rejected the apocryphal books as being canon.

So if counts if hippo and Carthage were meant to be binding upon the entire church here. You have one of the greatest bishops of Rome in that time period who seemingly is not aware of this fact. Obviously that indicates that they were not those councils were not looked upon.

As having that kind of binding authority in the time period in which they existed you have to anachronistically read that authority back into them. Now there was a council and I don't have this stuff in front of me.

So I may have mentioned it at some point. There were later ecumenical councils that cited earlier non Ecumenical councils and so I might argue we'll see if you cite that. Then that that turns it into something that is that is binding and this is a number of hundreds of years down the road but the whole the whole.

The whole discussion needs to go back to if there had been a dogmatic binding definition of the canon prior to April of 1546 then what was the Council of Trent doing? Why were they so concerned about this?

And why is it that for example? You have in the Two really good examples of this and again, I read these toward the end of the program. But let me just mention them quickly two good examples of this is after the the writing of the the 97 theses by Luther 95 theses 97 windows 98 windows 2000.

We've got too many numbers going on here after Literally the the functional beginning of the Reformation. You still have individuals highly placed in the Roman Catholic Church. Who do not accept the apocryphal books as being scripture?

In fact, I would argue that from the medieval period forward the more scholarly individuals did not accept them and the least less scholarly did and You have for example Cardinal Cayetan who interviewed Luther just a few years later in his introduction the Old Testament very clearly talking about using Jerome's Canon and the correction of Augustine and so on so forth and then what I found really interesting is that for those who are interested in textual critical issues one of the Yeah, we're adding some apocryphal theses to the to the 95 now.

It's up to 97. And the the two have to do with Reformed Baptist by the way, this is a little joke there. You have Erasmus is the first one to publish. To print and to publish a Greek New Testament. He was not the first to print a Greek New Testament.

Cardinal Jimenez had already produced what's called the Completion polyglot and That particular work in its introduction. It was a tremendous work of scholarship very finely made but in its introduction, which was addressed to the Pope.

You have the discussion of the Canon and the rejection of the deuterocanonical books. This is Cardinal Jimenez XIME NES and this would be in XIME NES Jimenez. And that's called the Completion polyglot.

I'll let you spell that one for yourself the Completion polyglot. And it was actually the first published text of the Greek New Testament not the first I'm sorry first printed not the first published because back then before you could publish something you had to Get papal approval and it was sort of like, you know today I was having to deal try to deal with the motor vehicle department.

It's a long process, you know, and it was an even longer process back then.

The Canon of Scripture and the Authority of Roman Catholic Councils

So, um, so there was division you would you would say some maybe not major division, but there was some there's what the. What the actual canon was? Yes, so it was dogmatically defined in.

1546. Yes, there were there there were. John, Cawson has listed 52 major ecclesiastical writers Up until the time of the Reformation who rejected the apocryphal books as being canon scripture.

There's no question about this whenever you get this information James. I mean, this is this is tremendous stuff.

And well, it's you know, it's generally available. For example, like I said Bill Webster has a very full discussion of this in volume two of the Holy Scripture set. If you're going to be dialoguing with an individual who is well read in Roman Catholic apologetics materials I could not more strongly recommend to you Adding to your library the entire three-volume set of Holy Scripture by by David King and Bill Webster because these.

You know, most people have noticed that when we have debates lots of it comes right back down to the issue of Authority and there is no question about that. And so that is such a fundamental issue in Apologetics to Roman Catholics that you really have to avail yourself of that now that information is also available in.

In other sources, but not as easily in other words those sources aren't specifically apologetic. They're just discussing the historical stuff. And so you sort of have to dig to find it. Most of the and a lot of those books are not exactly what you pick up at your local Christian bookstore.

They're more scholarly that you pick up at a library or something along that those lines. Works that deal with the issue of the canon the history of the medieval period biblical interpretation the medieval period etc, etc.

So the information is definitely out there. It's just a matter of I mean if you really want to get into the historical stuff. There is a book by Roger Beckwith which one of the folks in our channel who is in channel right now in Ilsan has Has actually paid to have reprinted once and I heard he was possibly looking at doing it again.

Called the Old Testament Canon the New Testament Church by Roger Beckwith. It was from 1985 very scholarly work. That's sometimes what you have to do to track down, you know, really good really good stuff.

But yeah, it is out there and once you've got the information then then you keep it.

I'm gonna ask one more quick question and sure you don't have to answer it if it's inappropriate. You believe some of these guys are indeed born of God's Spirit. What do you mean by some of these guys some of these guys on the on the on the the Roman the Roman side?

The the scholars that you're debating that seem to at least speak. The language of all were saved by grace and then the works were actually doing is grace energized. It's energized by God and well.

You know people ask me to make specific you know comments on specific individuals and and Obviously, I see a vast difference between a former Protestant especially a former well read trained Protestant over against an ignorant Protestant.

And a person who has always been within the Roman Catholic system I do not believe that the the Roman Gospel can save and I'm certain that the Judaizers spoke about grace and faith and and and talked a good talk as well but the Apostle Paul said that they were perverting the gospel and that they did not have eternal life and so When I when I hear these folks talking about grace, I always hear as you pointed out then the Eventually when you start Saying okay, if that's what you really believe Then let's let's talk about indulgences.

Let's talk about purgatory. Let's talk about the sacrifice of Christ in the mass and all the way down the line. They'll say yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes, and and it it ends up completely redefining What grace was meant to you know, biblically what it what it's what it's to mean.

So I Simply, you know look at that kind of a situation and I go well, I I don't believe That those individuals have heard the gospel and therefore, you know as far as I can tell by just simply examining The system that they embrace it's not the gospel now.

Did they have they heard the gospel someplace or believing something other than what they're professing? I don't know. That's that's a heart issue. That is that is something that you know, I simply cannot you know address at that, you know in that way, but I can just simply look at the at the the Message and the teaching itself and go that's not the gospel doesn't bring eternal life.

Okay. All right. Thank you.

I'm sorry if that was it. Oh, no, not at all I'll say because as I'm sitting with these guys and wrestling with it they be. They seem to have eternal life and it's it's and it's a it's a tough thing. I mean, I know no man knows the heart of a man, but the spirit of man.

And.

Well, you know one thing it helps with that because I know exactly what you're talking about. I know exactly What you're referring to? And I understand the the The desire to hope for the best in someone I truly truly do.

However at the same time I I've Dialogued with people from so many different Backgrounds and so many different beliefs that that has helped me some in other words. After a while when you sit down and you have dinner With a a Mormon and this individual is is very moral they never use foul language you you have much in common as to Your dislike of the degradation of our society and and all the rest that stuff.

And they speak of Christ and they speak of Self-sacrifice and all the rest of stuff. And yet you also know in your mind this person believes that God Was once a man who lived on another planet and progressed the status of godhood and Jesus the spirit brother of Lucifer.

And this person Really believes that they themselves can become a god. Then it helps you to go. Wow. I can be very easily Misled by outward appearances. I need to have an unchanging standard of truth and that unchanging standard of truth is what defines for me what the gospel is.

And so once that you've done that with the Mormons and the Jehovah's Witnesses and some Muslims and some Roman Catholics you start getting an Idea that you know if there's not an objective standard and revelation here I I'm I'm in in in big big trouble because there's no way of knowing just by looking at someone from the outside.

Sure. Well, thank you. Okay. Thank you very much. All right, I Deeply appreciate your ministry and and your mp3s and I got a little mp3 player. I listen to the debates all the time. Sometime you're you guys are talking about some lofty stuff and I'm grasping but the second third time around I'm beginning to get it.

Well, great. Excellent. It's it's certainly been a great help. Well, thank you very much. It's very encouraging. Thank you very much. Eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one appreciate getting phone calls like that.

If you appreciate the mp3 list, you should appreciate the man behind the scenes who makes it all happen. And especially when I see him hopping servers like Like someone like someone shooting at his feet, you know, just bing bing bing bing bing and I'm just like, okay.

It's it's funny but We we do very much appreciate those kind words of encouragement. We need to hear them every once in a while. I must admit because sometimes you do wonder if you've Fallen off the edge the planet or something something along those lines and it's good to good to hear that kind of thing so eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one, I don't know if anyone has noticed this but the whole time that I have been talking and The whole time I've been speaking with folks.

And answering Harry's thing. I kicked out how many people about six there goes number seven. That's at least number seven we have a bunch of lamers Trying to get into our into our channel and I think they're using this backdoor stuff.

Whatever it is and Without without skipping a beat I have found a way to set things up that it's a click click gone. So we have been Defending the the channel at the very same time now. I did get a note and I should I should acknowledge this I got a note.

Someone was complaining that I'm too easily distracted by the people in the channel. And if you're not listening and you're not in the channel, then that somehow bothers you. Well, I'm sorry, but that's how we get a lot of the interaction that we get and you should visit anyways.

And that's just the way that this I also say ah too much, which I know is true. But you ought to try that in you ought to try doing a webcast Where all you're looking at is a computer screen and you don't even have a window someplace it's it's a little more tricky than you might think it is, so that's just sort of the way things are and and I'm sorry, if that doesn't you know fit your particular perspective, but that's the way things are.

I I Do the do the best that I can do and try to in trying to address the issue. What's a lamer? Oh, that's true. Some folks might not know what a lamer is these are folks that are coming in and and they're trying to spread the viruses by IRC and they try to flood the channel and You know, there goes and there goes another one.

Bling. Boom. Goodbye and they're really easy to recognize because they They they never Spell their names out, which is why I know they're not listening to me right now. They never spell their names out there.

It's just a bunch of random letters. And so as soon as they come in my my cursor sitting right where their name comes up into the screen. And then if they right-click Slide it up. Bing. They're gone.

So yeah, they're attempting to overload the server and crash it and stuff like that. So Starlink IRC is under attack at the moment by some lamers over in Eastern Europe someplace. I guess is where they are I don't know a bunch of numeric IPs are coming up.

We almost banned all of Canada this morning. Sorry about that, Canada. So we're we're fighting off the the pagans and Anyways, we're gonna go ahead and take take our break while I just nailed one NVR To D BB KKW, but that's really good.

That's that's really stealthy. We'll be right back right after this Today.

Roman Catholicism, Mary, and Calvinism in the Break

More than any time in the past Roman Catholics and evangelicals are working together. They are standing shoulder-to-shoulder against social evils they are joining across denominational boundaries in renewal movements and Many evangelicals are finding the history tradition and grandeur of the Roman Catholic Church appealing.

This newfound rapport has caused many evangelical leaders and laypeople to question the age-old disagreements that have divided Protestants and Catholics. Aren't we all saying the same thing in a different language?

James White's book the Roman Catholic controversy is an absorbing look at current views of tradition in Scripture the papacy the mass purgatorian indulgences and Marian doctrine. James White points out the crucial differences that remain regarding the Christian life and the heart of the gospel itself.

They cannot be ignored. Order your copy of the Roman Catholic controversy by going to our website at a omen Org. This portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God. The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church. The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming Lord's Day.

The morning Bible study begins at 9 30 a .m. And the worship service is at 10 45. Evening services are at 6 30 p .m. On Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix.

You can call for further information at 602 to 6 grace. If you're unable to attend you can still participate with your computer and real audio at PR BC org where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day.

Millions of petitioners from around the world are employing Pope John Paul II to recognize the Virgin Mary as co-redeemer with Christ. Elevating the topic of Roman Catholic views of Mary to national headlines and widespread discussion in his book Mary another Redeemer.

James White sidesteps hostile rhetoric and sites directly from Roman Catholic sources to explore this volatile topic. He traces how Mary of the Bible esteemed mother of the Lord obedient servant and chosen vessel of God.

Has become the immaculately conceived bodily assumed Queen of Heaven. Viewed as co-mediator with Christ and now recognized as co-redeemer by many in the Roman Catholic Church. Mary another Redeemer is fresh insight into the woman.

The Bible calls a blessed among women and an invitation to single-minded devotion to God's truth. You can order your copy of James White's book. Mary another Redeemer at a omen dot org. What is dr Norman Geisler warning the Christian community about in his book chosen, but free a new cult.

Secularism false prophecy scenarios. No, dr. Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called Calvinism. He insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent. Philosophically insufficient and morally repugnant in his book the potter's freedom.

James White replies to dr Geisler, but the potter's freedom is much more than just a reply. It is a defense of the very principles upon which the Protestant Reformation was founded. Indeed it is a defense of the very gospel itself in a style that both scholars and laymen alike can appreciate.

James White Masterfully counters the evidence against so-called extreme Calvinism. Defines what the reformed faith actually is and concludes that the gospel preached by the reformers is the very one taught in the pages of Scripture the potter's freedom a defense of the Reformation and a rebuttal to Norman Geisler's chosen.

But free you'll find it in the reformed theology section of our bookstore at a omen dot org.

I love when I hear this this sound from the other From the other side of the wall whoa what happened go? We take we simply take Webcasting to another level here, okay, that's just it wasn't supposed to do that.

Hmm. Well you know Windows 98 at times just does its own thing you know what I mean, that's just just so how it works. 877 753 33 41 877 753 33 4. Stop that quit sending me funny things in in in the channel.

Templeton, Apologetics, and the Problem of Outward Religion

That's not fair. So while we are waiting for the flood of phone calls to come in I don't see anything up In the the magical little window from the other side of the room that tells me that anyone has taken my invitation to call him.

Nothing that now that's that's sort of how it works. I had mentioned at the beginning of the program I had obtained who published this McClelland and Stewart the Canadian publishers ah well There you go that tells you something right there Charles Temple Templeton's book farewell to God and It was interesting reading the what's called a personal word and it was a description of Mr.. Templeton's, I guess what we would have to describe is as religious experience.

He describes his his activities he describes his popularity. He describes the the media coverage of what he did his Advancement in the cause shall we say? Part and parcel of the of the description is how very early on there was a Series of doubts in his mind how for a large portion of the years in which he was a a public figure preaching and teaching that he in essence Doubted the reality of the Christian faith.

That he had these doubts before he went to seminary and that they continued with him and eventually he simply had to in fact after debating as he reported at the the head of the debating club at a University in a sort of personal debate not a real big public debate, but in a personal debate Coming to conclusion.

He could no longer believe any of this even though he himself Was told that he had won. The debate he was told by the the individual that he had won and that caused him a problem because of the fact that It in essence Made him feel that he may be leading people astray.

And so he he left the faith left the ministry went into such things as Writing and journalism and things like that in Canada. What I found fascinating is even though it is self-evident that at times he is able to enunciate The proper answers quite.

Well, he's able to define the doctrine of the Trinity for example correctly. In defining the doctrine of the Trinity correctly, he then lodges a a complaint or a allegation of contradiction against it that is Irrelevant if he is understood What he was defining in the previous sentence in essence and That Really to me feeds into what I read in the introduction to the book and that is I Read nothing about anything that would be relevant to true conversion Outward activity in the sense of youth rallies and Busyness is not evidence of Salvation it is not evidence of conversion.

In all that he writes concerning, you know He talks about how he would pray or he would preach or he'd be involved he'd be doing doing doing doing but the things that I see in Scripture in regards to the Putting to death the deeds of the flesh the the passionate Love of Christ that is born in the heart of the redeemed individual That recognizes the depth of his own sin recognizes what repentance truly is recognizes What justification is I see none of that now maybe that's because there's been so much time That it passed away, but that doesn't make any sense to me in the sense that maybe well He's just not doesn't want to talk about those things.

No, that doesn't make any sense to me at all. I see no evidence whatsoever That this man understood any of those things. In fact, I would assume that he would simply say well look it's a it's a it's nothing more than You know the the terminology that Christians use to try to cover over their doubts and their fears and their Questions and things like that.

I See nothing in his description of his ministry that I could not see for example in the description of a Person's life who grew up in the LDS Church and is now an LDS leader. They will talk about the same type of prayers.

They will talk about the same type of activity the missionary work the the self-sacrifice That is involved in growing In his case growing small churches into larger churches and things like that. There's no difference their outward Activity does not necessarily come from a changed inward person.