Why Are Effeminate Men Gross and Wrong?

The Bible Bashed Podcast

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:00

Warning, the following message may be offensive to some audiences. These audiences may include, but are not limited to, professing Christians who never read their

00:05

Bible, sissies, sodomites, men with man buns, those who approve of men with man buns, man bun enablers, white knights for men with man buns, homemakers who have finished

00:10

Netflix but don't know how to meal plan, and people who refer to their pets as fur babies. Viewer discretion is advised. People are tired of hearing nothing but doom and despair on the radio.

00:25

The message of Christianity is that salvation is found in Christ alone, and any who reject

00:31

Christ therefore forfeit any hope of salvation, any hope of heaven.

00:38

The issue is that humanity is in sin, and the wrath of almighty

00:43

God is hanging over our heads. They will hear his words, they will not act upon them, and when the floods of divine judgment, when the fires of wrath come, they will be consumed and they will perish.

00:58

God wrapped himself in flesh, condescended, and became a man.

01:19

And when the floods of divine judgment come in that final day, their house will stand.

01:27

Welcome to Bible Bash, where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask.

01:33

We're your hosts, Harrison Kerrig and Pastor Tim Mullett, and today we'll be seeking to answer the age -old question, why are effeminate men gross and wrong?

01:41

Now, this is a conversation that's been going on for a while now, especially within the last few years.

01:53

I think we've all sort of seen this really strange pushback against normal gender stereotypes, especially as the

02:03

LGBTQ movement has really kind of taken off and become such a dominant feature of online culture.

02:12

You see a lot of people who really try and fight against the idea that men and women are different in a lot of different ways, and they have various strengths and weaknesses that are specific to their gender.

02:27

And so we've seen a lot of people who are trying to come along and say, hey, look, men and women are the exact same.

02:33

There's no differences between them. Yeah, they're basically just interchangeable parts, right? Right, yeah. They're interchangeable parts, and we've taken it so far that even now, men can get pregnant by women, right?

02:46

That's how far we've tried to take it. What's so weird about it is that this is the exact point that the transgender people are making, and then you have conservative

02:56

Christians who are basically sounding just like the transgender individuals are sounding as it relates to this topic of effeminacy.

03:07

So basically, I don't know how we're arguing with them if there is no such thing as masculinity, and if there is no such thing as femininity, and then if there really isn't even a concept of effeminacy in general.

03:21

So plenty of the conversations I've had with people this week have been over this topic of effeminacy, and you have basically

03:28

Christians who don't even have a category for what that could be and why that could be wrong.

03:34

Yeah, and like I said, you've really seen this war against it, basically.

03:41

But then for so much of human history, it seemed like pretty much every single society throughout human history has understood that men and women are different and that men are better at certain things than women are, and vice versa.

04:00

Women are better at certain things compared to men as well. And it seems like every culture before us has really understood that to a certain degree, but then we've come along and really sort of twisted things in a way that's extremely unnatural.

04:15

I mean, unnatural pretty much in every way that you could possibly think of. And so that leads us to the problem we have now, which is you have men who are coming, even

04:26

Christian men, who are coming along and saying, hey, it's okay to be effeminate. The Bible doesn't condemn men who are effeminate.

04:39

You don't have to be this really muscular dude who's angry all the time and drinks a beer every other minute and then smashes the can on his forehead.

04:52

You don't have to be that kind of guy. And that's a little bit of an exaggeration, but it really is kind of—

05:00

It's not much of an exaggeration. It's really not. And it's kind of jarring, honestly, to see

05:06

Christians who are— I guess I shouldn't be surprised by anything at this point, but it is kind of jarring to see

05:11

Christians come along and say things like the Bible doesn't mention effeminacy as something that men should avoid.

05:22

I mean, you just have to read the Bible, and you know that's not true.

05:28

But that's what is leading us to have this type of episode that is to say, why is it so weird?

05:37

Why is it gross? Why is it wrong when we see men who behave like they're women, essentially?

05:44

And so I guess where we'll start is just that topic question, Tim, is why, just on surface level, when

05:54

I see a guy who's dressed effeminately or who carries themselves effeminately or speaks effeminately, it's strange to me.

06:08

It feels weird to see that— Obviously, you're a hateful bigot, man. Well, I mean, yeah, obviously.

06:14

Obviously, I'm that. So putting that part of it aside, why does it feel wrong to even just observe someone else behaving that way?

06:28

Well, I guess you have two components to the question. So you have the component, why is it gross? And then you have the component, why is it wrong?

06:36

And then you're asking it in a way that you're collapsing both of those two things together. But I mean, I guess we can address the gross first, and then, if you want, we can address the wrong later.

06:47

I suppose that's the order you're wanting to go in. Yeah, yeah, let's go in that order. All right, so the gross part.

06:52

So, I mean, the gross part is one of those things where you shouldn't have to even answer that question because it's one of those things that Paul, essentially, in 1

07:03

Corinthians 11, he's having a discussion about long hair in men. He's basically saying nature itself teaches that it's shameful for men to have long hair.

07:10

And when he says that, what he's saying is nature itself is teaching something, meaning, like, you should intuitively know that this is gross.

07:21

I mean, that would be another way to put it. Like, it's shameful, meaning it's gross, right? Like, it's shameful, meaning, like, when you see a guy with long hair,

07:29

Paul is saying what you should think is you should think that that is strange and that is intuitively repelling in a certain way.

07:37

It should be shameful. So you have what's described as the yuck factor, you know, that many people use to describe this sort of thing, but there should be a yuck factor that's associated with it, like a sign of shame.

07:48

Like, I feel embarrassed for you. I feel the kind of... I'm starting to internalize the kind of shame that you should be feeling, but you strangely aren't, right?

07:58

Right, right. That's what's going on. Now, the reason why that would be... So, like, in a certain sense, this should be...

08:05

When a man acts like a woman and he takes on the habits, the practices, the mannerisms, the dress, like, when he presents himself with all the signs and symbols that are associated with femininity, when he does that, everyone should be grossed out.

08:20

Everyone should be. Yeah, emphasis on should be. They should be. And I was making fun of Big Eva and I made a meme that I shared that got a few laughs out of it, but it's basically saying, you know,

08:35

Paul says to men, be strong, act like men, and then Big Eva says, we got this, and I showed the picture of the guy in the

08:42

Crocs with the long hair and the hugging the puppies, cuddling the puppies with the skirt on, you know?

08:47

And I had people arguing with me about that picture as if... I mean, I couldn't believe some of the responses

08:53

I got, people arguing with me about that picture, but, like, that should be gross. And the reason why it should be gross is because, like, intuitively, what people should know is that, like, a man doesn't make a good woman.

09:07

Okay? So there's something repelling about it because, like, what happens is what you're witnessing is a caricature of an idea.

09:13

Right. So you're not witnessing the real thing. And this is what people can't understand.

09:19

Like, femininity is a great thing. Like, femininity is a wonderful thing. Like, a woman can embody femininity, and when a woman embodies femininity, like, that's a glorious thing in the

09:30

Bible. Like, women are made to be the glory of a man. That's a glorious thing. It's a majestic thing.

09:35

It's a wonderful thing. That's a great thing. And, like, but then all you have to imagine is you have to imagine

09:42

Bruce Jenner putting on a dress, and you realize that it doesn't... it's not glorious anymore.

09:48

It doesn't translate very well. It doesn't. It doesn't. Like, what you've done is you've just made a mockery of the thing.

09:55

Right? Right. So, like, you've taken this concept that is appropriate when it's embodied in the way that it's supposed to embody, and you've turned it into something that's a parody of itself.

10:06

Because the thing is, men are not made for beauty in the same way. Men are not made...

10:12

Men are not made to be beautiful. And women are, right? Right. So, a woman can be beautiful.

10:19

She can embody that. But when a man puts upon himself and takes it upon himself to put all those symbols of femininity on himself, all you get is a caricature.

10:29

In the same way that, like, if a woman tries to make herself butch and manly, it's not...

10:35

Like, it's not intimidating. Right? Yeah, it's pretty off -putting. Yeah, it's pretty off -putting.

10:41

It's gross. Right? It's gross, like, to see the lesbian bull dyke or whatever. Like, that's...

10:46

That's gross. Like, it's not... Like, it's not manly. It's not intimidating. It doesn't accomplish the effect that you're intending to accomplish.

10:54

Right? So, when some radical feminist comes along, cuts off all of her hair, right, puts herself in the ugliest clothes imaginable, and tries to present herself as strong, no man looks at that and thinks to himself, man,

11:05

I'm intimidated. They think to themselves, what a joke, right? I mean, that's assuming that the man is fairly masculine.

11:14

I could see some effeminate man saying, hey, I'm pretty intimidated by this lady.

11:20

Yeah. If there is such a man that actually exists, you know, and I'm sure that there are a few, then that would be a sign of judgment upon him, right?

11:27

Yeah. But, you know, the same thing is happening with the guy on the other end. So, it should be gross because it's contrary to nature, meaning

11:34

God's designed certain things to function in certain ways. And when you reject the design that he has...

11:40

So, men are designed to be strong. Women are designed to be beautiful, among other things, okay? Mm -hmm.

11:45

But when you have a woman trying to present herself as strong, it becomes a caricature... Yeah. ...of the concept.

11:51

And when you have a man presenting himself as beautiful, it's a caricature. So, the more that you do that, the more that you embrace these symbols of femininity or masculinity when they're not appropriate to your gender, all you're doing is you're making yourself into a parody, essentially.

12:10

Yeah. It's the equivalent of blackface. But even worse,

12:16

I think. Yeah, right. I think way worse. Right, right. So, that's why it's gross, right?

12:23

I mean, that would be part of why it's gross. I mean, that's what Paul was saying when he was saying nature itself is teaching this. It's like, you know, essentially what you're meant to imagine is trying to use a screwdriver to hammer a nail, you know?

12:36

It doesn't... Like, you ruin the design that way. It's not designed for that purpose. And so, you're meant to think, ooh, don't do that, right?

12:43

Right. So, I mean, if you see someone taking a wrench and hammering a nail or something, everyone just kind of goes, like, recoils at that a little bit, right?

12:51

You think to yourself, like, oh, you know? Uh -huh. Like, that's not what it's made for.

12:56

Right. And you're ruining a perfectly good thing here, right? And so, that's the reaction we should have with effeminacy is to be just, it's shameful, it's gross.

13:06

Okay. So, it's shameful, it's gross. I guess one of the responses that a lot of people really seem to have when it comes to this conversation is basically to say, hey, the

13:21

Bible doesn't say men need to be manly, which is a little funny because it's kind of,

13:28

I personally, I think that this is pretty telling of someone's understanding of the

13:34

Bible because, you know, you don't even have to read through the whole thing to understand that men,

13:44

God requires men to be like men. I mean, I know,

13:49

I know for some, that's kind of a profound -sounding statement, but if you just... It's a deep mystery.

13:55

If you just read the Bible a little bit, you know, and... I mean, you just go with Genesis, right?

14:00

And Genesis, okay, Genesis. Well, in the beginning, he made them male and female. Right. So then, what you think, when you read that, in the beginning, he made them male and female, that male and female are two different things.

14:12

Right, with completely different roles. With different roles, but not only different roles, but different strengths and weaknesses.

14:18

They're designed in different ways. And I mean, you don't even have to... Like, it doesn't take a lot of intelligence to figure this out, you know?

14:27

Like, meaning, you know, and I posted this on Twitter because I thought it was somewhat interesting, but my daughter, she's four,

14:34

Vivian, she has a game that she likes to play with me every night, and it's this game where, you know, what's your favorite animal?

14:42

So, she likes to chit -chat with me before, you know, I'm putting her to bed, she wants to chit -chat with me, like a woman does, right?

14:48

And so then, so she engages in, you know, small talk with me, and then, you know, she asked me, what's my favorite animal?

14:55

And so, I would give her my favorite animal. So, when I first started doing this game, I thought, okay, what's my favorite animal?

15:01

And I was trying to think because I'm not, you know, a big animal lover, and so I thought, you know, sheep, because I can make euros out of them, right?

15:10

And so... Hey, lamb's pretty good. I love lamb. So, that's how I was trying to... I was trying to answer it that way, but then she looked at me, she said, no, sheep are girl animals.

15:19

And so, she was policing my answers, right? So, I couldn't say sheep because sheep in her mind was a girl animal.

15:24

And so, I thought, huh, that's weird, you know? And so, then I said, well, okay, well, cows, because I was thinking hamburgers, right? But then cows were...

15:32

Cows were girl animals too. And so, then I was like, okay, right? And so, I was like, how was she categorizing this kind of thing, right?

15:39

So, I'm trying to figure out how is she categorizing the difference between a boy animal and a girl animal? Because I'm not going to tell the birds and bees at this point.

15:47

But then what I realized is that most herbivores in her mind were girl animals, right?

15:54

So, anything that was nice, like anything she thought of as a nice animal, that was a girl animal, right?

16:00

Uh -huh. Like anything she thought was pretty was a girl animal. So, like a horse, right? Or a unicorn.

16:07

Those are girl animals, right? Did you say a unicorn was your favorite animal? I tried to just to see what would happen at some point.

16:13

And I was rebuked thoroughly for it, you know? Because I lost my man card with that one. But then, you know,

16:21

I was trying to figure out what is a boy animal? Any carnivore counted, right? Okay. So, I could get away with saying lions, tigers, bears, right?

16:29

Naturally, yeah. Naturally. But then anything that was kind of loud, you know, like a dog. Dog is obviously a boy animal.

16:35

Cat's a girl animal in her mind, right? Okay. I mean, and it makes sense. I mean, like once you figure out what's happening, it makes total sense what's happening here, right?

16:44

But then if I were to try, I was trying to test the waters and I was like, all right, what about a monkey, right? And what do you think a monkey was?

16:54

I would say a girl animal, I guess. You think? Not to her.

17:00

She thought a monkey was a boy animal because it was funny. Because they're funny?

17:07

Yeah, yeah. They're funny. How are they funny? Well, I mean, they do funny things, you know?

17:13

I guess I have seen a video of an orangutan. They're playful and funny. Put on sunglasses that someone dropped in their exhibit.

17:20

Yeah, they're funny. That was pretty funny. She knows that like ladies don't have the same kind of sense of humor as men. Well, obviously the answer here is it's because you're raising a bigot in training.

17:33

Well, I didn't teach her any of this stuff. You know, I didn't teach her. So, but then I tried to say, well, what about a buffalo, right?

17:39

Uh -huh. And buffalo is obviously a boy, you know? A boy animal. Yeah, it's obviously a boy.

17:44

Just because it's strong. You know, it looks strong. But the point, though, of the whole thing is that she knows, like if you try to take stereotypical man traits and stereotypical woman traits and you map them on the animal kingdom, you come away with this intuition that some seem to be more like human manly, you know?

18:05

And some seem to be more human feminine, right? Yeah. You know, we need to put out a poll this week asking, is a monkey a boy animal or a girl animal?

18:15

A girl animal. Settle the debate. Hey, she would not let me say it's a girl, you know, for sure.

18:22

But that'll be the debate. No, I mean, but the point, though, is just to say, I think, you know, even young children know that men and women are different.

18:31

I mean, my goodness, just go to high school and, you know, observe the different sports teams, right?

18:38

The guys, like, guys on sports teams look like, you know, some of them look like action figures, right? And the ladies don't, you know?

18:46

They don't, you know? So, like, it's just, we're very different. And that says something about how we're made. But anyways,

18:52

I hijacked you, but go ahead. Yeah, so if the Bible is, you know, so, okay, obviously we know there are a lot of men in the

18:59

Bible who are masculine, right? Sure, right. David's mighty men.

19:05

Right, and I guess it might be helpful. What I was going to ask is, you know, where does the

19:11

Bible, does the Bible actually command us? So we know there are men in the Bible who are this way, but does the

19:17

Bible actually command us to be masculine? But I think before I ask that, actually, I want to ask you to, you know, like, let's just define biblical masculinity.

19:28

Now that we're 20 minutes into the episode, why don't we define, like, what biblical masculinity is so people understand what we're talking about?

19:38

Because I sort of painted a caricature at the beginning that's like, hey, you know, you've got to be extremely muscular, you know, basically like Superman strength.

19:47

You've got to know everything about every sport that goes on.

19:54

You need to drink beer all the time and crush the can on your head, right? Drive a giant monster truck.

20:01

That's a caricature, right? But then when we are actually talking about masculinity in a serious manner, what are we talking about here?

20:11

What does the Bible, you know, say is masculine? Well, yeah, that's where, like, the other side has no definition of this concept whatsoever, and that's the problem.

20:20

So basically what you have is the other side in this kind of discussion, you basically have men and women are interchangeable parts.

20:27

The only difference that people can see is that there are certain roles there that are different if they believe that at all, right?

20:35

So men and women are different in that they have different roles. So obviously a woman is made to make a baby. Right, yeah.

20:42

You can't even say that. Most Christians agree that that's the only way to make a baby these days.

20:48

I mean, but you're not allowed to say it, really, even though it's obvious because then you're reducing a woman to a baby maker or something like that.

20:54

And then what about the woman who can't have babies? And there are some women who are barren. So what do you make of that? The thing is, like, men and women are different.

21:02

They're made to do different things. But in the minds of many people, you don't have, like, those differences are purely arbitrary.

21:10

So God just so happened to decide that a man should be the leader of his home. Who knows why, right? Because a woman could lead just as well as a man, probably even better, but then that's just the way

21:19

God decided. Someone has to be the tiebreaker. So it just so happens to be the man who's going to be the tiebreaker, and that's the way that many people are actually thinking about these things.

21:26

But then what that betrays is that they don't have this concept of masculinity that you're talking about that undergirds the project.

21:33

So as I've interacted with people, what they do then is, like, they only have a category for, like, what you might describe as the machismo or whatever, which is, you know, the

21:44

Spanish way of putting it, which is basically the category you've appealed to, right? So the machismo category is, like, the abusive, loud male, you know, confident guy, alpha male kind of type, right?

21:56

Right. Who is brash, dominant, you know, probably sexually active, you know, in that way, and, you know, treats women like garbage, treats women like trash.

22:07

He's strong, right? Engages in destructive behaviors. And so what's happening on this other end is, like, you have people who basically are— they only have, like—they don't know how to tell the difference between, like, that kind of category, which is, like, a distorted kind of masculinity, and then true masculinity, and then femininity.

22:27

Like, they don't have—all they have is just, well, whatever the biblical idea of masculinity is, it's almost in their minds, like, the exact opposite of machismo, right?

22:37

But then the exact opposite of machismo is uber femininity. Yeah. So then masculinity becomes uber femininity in their minds, and that's what's actually coming out, right?

22:49

Yeah, yeah. That's what's—like, that's what's actually happening. But what you need is you need to realize, well, what is masculinity itself?

22:55

It's not really that hard. I mean, you just have to ask yourself, how did God design men? So masculinity is meant to be contrasted with femininity.

23:03

In the Bible, like, the more you read the Bible, the more you realize that the Bible has given you a definition of masculinity.

23:08

But what you want to do is you want to tie it to the roles and responsibility that God has given men and the corresponding strengths and weaknesses that men actually have.

23:18

And so masculinity is just simply the traits and the roles that are associated with being a man, right?

23:27

So give us, like, a brief overview of what some of that looks like. Yeah, so over and over and over again, you read the

23:33

Bible, and over and over and over again, men are designed for war. Okay.

23:38

Big shock, you know? So men are stronger than women. Women are described as the weaker vessel. Men are stronger than women.

23:44

That means physically, you know, despite the fact that everyone wants to deny the obvious reality of Olympic records and sports competitions.

23:51

Men are obviously much stronger than women, like, significantly stronger than women because God designed men to be stronger than women.

23:58

And that's why you can read the Bible over and over and over again, and you're going to see that men are over and over again told, be strong and be courageous because strength, like, physical strength encourages mental strength, emotional strength.

24:10

These are more in abundant supply in men than they are in women, and it's not even close, right?

24:16

So God's designed men to be warriors. Like, that's why all the warriors in the Bible are men, right?

24:22

And JL isn't even an exception to that. You know, like, in order to beat

24:27

Sisera, she basically had to lull him into sleep and then drive a tent pag through his head when he was incapacitated and immobile.

24:37

But you don't have some kind of Mulan -like female character in the Bible because that's not real. You know what

24:42

I'm saying? So men are designed to be strong. And so, like, when you think about that one trait of masculinity, strength, it can go two different ways.

24:54

So it can go the machismo way, which is going to be basically where a man is going to take that strength and use it to destroy things and to hurt other people.

25:03

And then if you take that same strength component of masculinity and put it in a biblical perspective, then a man's going to use his strength to protect other people who are weaker and to work to the glory of God in order to— so, you know, man's work was cursed.

25:20

Like, the toil of the ground was cursed for him, and that meant that him plowing and digging and doing those hard things was going to be made harder, right, for him.

25:31

But then the thing is, that was a curse to him because he was made to do that, not woman, right? So woman wasn't made with the physical strength necessary to be the one plowing the field.

25:41

You get what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. Basically, strength in a way that honors

25:50

God is meant to create things and protect those created things, right? Right.

25:55

So that's one characteristic of masculinity is strength, and that's why over and over again men are told, you know, act like men, be strong, be courageous, right?

26:03

Enter into the promised land, be strong and courageous. You know, every single new king is told to be strong and courageous and do the things that God calls them to do.

26:12

The strength and courage are masculine virtues that are there, right? So that's part of it. So you think about the roles, but then there's also leadership.

26:19

Men are designed by God uniquely to lead. This isn't just something that could go either way.

26:27

It's not just that women could be just as good of leaders as men. Men are designed to lead. So men are designed to protect, they're designed to provide, they're designed to lead, and then they're also designed to sacrificially give of themselves to other people.

26:43

So you think about masculinity, like all I'm trying to say is you're tying it to these roles, you're tying it to these responsibilities, and what's undergirding it is the physical differences between men and women that are going to make these things into—enable them to accomplish the roles and responsibilities that God has given them.

27:03

Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. So the fact that we're stronger, you know, it means that masculinity looks like protecting and building, creating new things, but then leadership as well, being able to make decisions, and then also just giving up ourselves, right?

27:22

Especially for our family and our local church, I assume. Yeah, so we're equipped to be strong physically.

27:30

We're equipped to be strong mentally, right? Strength and fortitude, courage, and that's going to equip us to be leaders.

27:36

It's going to equip us to protect other people. That's going to equip us to do the hard physical labor of creation, to work hard hours, to give of ourselves, to engage in backbreaking labor.

27:47

You know, all that. All that is tied into this concept of biblical masculinity.

27:53

I mean, there's a lot more that we can say there. I'm just trying to say that everyone knows what masculinity is, and it's not all that hard to figure it out.

28:00

And my daughter can figure it out. She knows the difference between masculinity and femininity. And then part of how you do it is you can trust things—

28:09

I mean, it's all the gender stereotypes that you can ever imagine. That's masculinity. And it's not as if the

28:14

Bible is rejecting these normal, obvious things. The thing is it's just channeling them in helpful ways instead of unhelpful ways.

28:24

Now, the problem is that you have a lot of people who are coming along and saying, well, not everyone looks like Chris Hemsworth or something like that, right?

28:31

Yeah, I definitely don't look like him. But if he's the standard of masculinity, then you're shaming all these guys who have their soft, doughy hands and their effeminate girl voices and all that.

28:45

Are you saying that they're somehow not a man anymore, and don't we need to encourage everyone and build everyone's self -esteem?

28:50

And part of the problem, though, is, yeah, not everyone is equally manly. Sure. Not every woman is equally feminine.

29:00

Right, yeah. They aren't. They aren't equally feminine. We know that, right? Yeah, just like everyone's not—we don't all have the same

29:09

IQ. Yeah, we don't. We don't have all the same ability when it comes to sports or music or whatever it is.

29:18

We're all different, right? We're different, yeah. So, I mean, let me say something that would horrify everyone. Girls come in different shapes and sizes, right?

29:25

So, a girl who has more of an hourglass figure, what do you describe her? Everyone knows what you describe her. You say she has a womanly form, right?

29:31

Right, yeah. A girl who doesn't have an hourglass figure who's straight, what do you say?

29:37

You say she has a boy form—boy shape, right? Mm -hmm. Like, yeah, so we know that there are, you know, there's variation within the sexes, but what you don't do is you don't use those variations to basically destroy the concept of masculinity and femininity together.

29:59

Do you get what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. So you don't take, like, the fact that there are variations, but then you also have to, like, say, well, why— like, you can make those variations much more pronounced by being the kind of man who only hangs out with women, who has no male influence in your life, and who intentionally rejects anything that could conceivably be understood as a masculine activity.

30:21

So if all you do is sit around having girlfriends, chit -chatting with girls, and, you know, you never ever even remotely try to do anything that might require strength and courage, and you reject all those things, and, you know, all you do is, you know, watch girly movies and, you know, that kind of thing, and all your influences in your life are girls, it may be that you come out not very masculine.

30:45

Right. But what you haven't done is just proven the concept of masculinity. All you've done is show us how to reject it.

30:51

Yeah, yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah, and, you know, that kind of leads me into—I was going to ask you, like, hey, what do you tell the per— because obviously everyone's not the same.

31:02

Obviously there are going to be people who sort of fall into the, you know, the gender stereotypes more easily than other people do, but then what you don't want to do as a

31:16

Christian is encourage a man, for example, to all of the sudden, because he doesn't feel like he fits into the, you know, masculine sort of stereotype that there is, and I'm saying stereotype.

31:31

A lot of people view that as, like, a negative only word. I'm not using that as a negative word.

31:36

I'm just saying, hey, there is literally a stereotype, right, and it's not bad that it's there, but when a guy doesn't fall into that, he's going to be tempted to say, okay, well,

31:50

I must not fit in here. Let me go look elsewhere and find something else that feels a little more my speed.

31:57

What would you encourage that kind of guy with to help him sort of, you know, pursue masculinity over femininity?

32:14

Yeah, I mean, I don't think that, you know—the stereotype here is just to say that—or the thing that people hear, the caricature is that, okay, if you're not very manly, then, like, you know, you need to go and learn how to play sports, and I would say, hey, yeah, that may actually help you a little bit, even if you aren't very coordinated, even if you aren't actually gifted that way.

32:34

It may be good for you to hang out with men, and, I mean, it's not as if there's no benefit there to adopting those practices, but,

32:44

I mean, I think what you want to do is you want to look at the biblical roles that God has given you to do and try to do the type of thing—pursue the type of activities that are going to make you the best equipped to embody those roles.

32:57

And part of the reason why these things are a little bit confusing is because we live in a society right now where there are basically no expectations upon a man to protect a wife, for instance.

33:10

So let's just take one of those roles. Let's talk about strength—developing strength and courage. Well, you're living in a society right now, like, if you make a decent kind of income, you can put yourself in a pretty safe neighborhood to where you're not, like, the need to protect, like, your wife and your family is relatively low.

33:30

Right? Yeah. Right. So, but then the issue is if you abdicate that role of having to protect them because you're living in a pretty safe place, other men are going to pick up the slack for you, right?

33:40

That's why you have police officers and everything else. They're picking up the slack for you. They're being the strong and courageous people, so you don't have to be.

33:49

But what you've done is you've just handed over that role to someone else, right? Yeah. And we all take that as just normal that you hand that over to someone else.

33:56

But then just imagine, like, the anarchy actually happens. What then, right? Mm -hmm. So imagine that the

34:03

BLM rally comes to your neighborhood, right, in order to demonstrate, like, the racism that's inherent in all of your white privilege and they're knocking on your doors, like, then what, right?

34:14

Imagine that, like, you're living in Chaz. Like, I mean, imagine that we do get nuked by the

34:21

Russians or whatever, right? And the government's out and it's anarchy all the way down, right?

34:27

Mm -hmm. But at that point, you're going to realize it's your job to protect, like, you with your soft, doughy fingers, right?

34:35

Right. That haven't done a meaningful day's work in your whole life. You're going to be responsible to protect your family because that's what

34:40

God calls you to do. And you're going to be woefully unprepared and inadequate to do that because the first sign of danger, you're going to, you know, basically pee your pants and fall on the ground and, you know, in tears while horrible things are done to your family, right?

34:59

Mm -hmm. So, like, the issue is you have that role, you have that responsibility, and right now you're not being forced to face it.

35:06

Because you're living in a civilized society that's taking over those jobs for you. If that makes sense.

35:11

Yeah. So, but what I'm trying to say, though, is if you didn't lean on that, you say, hey, this is actually my job.

35:18

And if you can put yourself in a different kind of society where it becomes much more imperative, like, then you might realize, well, that's why the weaker vessel typically gravitate towards men who look stronger than you look.

35:33

And it's not because they're just being irrational. It's because they're making a calculation. They're saying, if danger comes,

35:39

I think that guy could take care of me better than you can. Mm -hmm. Yeah. You know,

35:45

I think, I mean, I heard, you know, I was listening to some Mike Tyson interviews along these lines.

35:52

And, you know, there's like these beautiful women. Mike Tyson.

35:57

They'd be beautiful. Yeah, it was, I can't remember. Someone was talking about Mike Tyson, but basically there'd be beautiful women who would, you know, want to be seen with him.

36:08

And someone asked one of them, you know, why do you want to be, you know, why are you so attracted to Mike Tyson?

36:14

I mean, he's a pretty ugly dude. Right? And, you know, her response was, there's something to be said about being near the guy who can beat every other guy up.

36:24

Right? You know? And, I mean, so, but here's the point. The point, though, is just to say, hey, if you're not, you don't naturally gravitate towards those things.

36:33

Well, it's like you're living in a society that doesn't force you to. Mm -hmm. But if you can put yourself in a different society, what that would force you to do is to say, hey,

36:41

I do have to actually keep myself reasonably strong. Yeah. In order to do the things that God has called me to do.

36:48

And then I also have to have developed the courage necessary not just to fold like a cheap card trick whenever danger comes.

36:57

Mm -hmm. And so, like traditional stereotypical masculinity, it does train men to have courage to face, like, you know, just look at all the

37:04

YouTube videos out there. And what these YouTube videos are showing is that men are putting themselves in reckless situations.

37:10

And you think, well, that's just stupidity on display. It's like, no, they're training themselves to have courage. Mm -hmm. Right? Mm -hmm.

37:16

And it's like you can be the guy who says, I don't want anything to do with that because I don't come naturally as good as some of the other guys.

37:24

Right? Uh -huh. But then the thing is, it's like, well, if you throw yourself, like, you can reject all that.

37:31

But what you're doing is you're really intuitively making yourself more undesirable to women, which is why, you know, plenty of effeminate guys are being pegged as being basically sodomites.

37:41

Right? Mm -hmm. And they end up being tempted that way. It's because they're making themselves detestable to members of the opposite sex because that lady knows she's weaker than you, and she knows she needs someone stronger than her.

37:51

And she doesn't want a guy who's too afraid, like, so afraid of her. You know, if he's afraid of her, he's going to fold like a cheap card trick when the robber's gone.

38:00

Right? Mm -hmm. Yeah. So the point, though, is just to say, hey, you may not be as good at first, but you can work as hard as you can and try to compensate for it because God's roles don't change.

38:10

Right. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. So there's something to be said about basically trying to, you know, not necessarily like, okay, so we live in a first world country where you really don't have these kinds of problems.

38:28

I guess unless you move to like a Democratic run city or something.

38:33

Right. Depends on where you live, right? Yeah. So I guess it depends on where you live. But like where we live, for example, is fairly safe overall.

38:42

You know, so I'm not every time we're going out, you know, I'm not having to fight off, you know, 20 guys that are trying to rob me and my family.

38:50

But there's probably something to be said about like, hey, you know, you should at least get in that mindset.

38:58

Right. Like, hey, what do I do in this kind of situation? Am I prepared to protect my family, for example, in this kind of situation?

39:05

But then beyond that, even, you know, pursuing things like I guess what are typically viewed as more masculine activities as well.

39:19

Right. So like there's probably something. If you're physically strong, aren't you more confident? Right.

39:25

Yeah. I mean, when you work out on a regular basis, you think, man, I'm getting stronger.

39:31

That boosts your confidence. I mean, so, yeah, it has limited value in terms of bodily exercises of little profit.

39:38

But like it also does like give you more confidence and make you like, you know, when you just let yourself go and you turn yourself into the weakest possible version of yourself, you don't have confidence.

39:51

And if you don't have confidence, you can't be a good leader. Right. Yeah. And I think there is something to be said as well about, you know,

39:59

Paul and that society. It's not necessarily like they were. The society was not like our society.

40:06

So our society, there's a ton of jobs that you can get where you basically just sit all day long.

40:14

Right. Sure. And you might type things on a computer or work some kind of touch screen or draw perhaps or whatever.

40:22

But back then in the society that he's talking to, everyone was pretty outside working.

40:28

All the men were outside working. Yeah. For the most part. Yeah. I mean, either being a soldier or having some kind of hard agricultural job.

40:37

Right. And so. So, sure. You know, when it comes to actual like whatever their version of like Gold's gym, what would have been right there, you know, there's not a lot of value there.

40:50

But then that doesn't mean that they were weak. Right. And so for us, muscles are for show more than anything.

40:57

Right. I mean, depending on where you're at, you know, if you're in prison, they're not for show. Yeah. You have to you have to actually start thinking about, hey,

41:04

I need to be a man and defend myself. Right. Yeah. No, I mean, the point, though, is you want to put on these like you want to operate according to your design.

41:14

So there's the kind of guy who basically says, hey, I'm not as strong as other guys. I'm not as coordinated as other guys. So why even try?

41:20

And there's the same kind of woman on the other side who does the same kind of thing. She says, I'm not as pretty as these other ladies. So therefore,

41:25

I'm going to make myself as ugly as possible. I'm going to let my armpit hair grow out. Right. I refuse to even try.

41:31

I'm going to let my hair just like be a mess, you know, cut it all off. I'm going to dress like a boy do.

41:37

I mean, look totally unflattering. And like what you have is like that butch girl has basically surrendered the project of femininity.

41:45

She's not even trying. Right. And then big shock. It's like guys don't like her. It's like, yeah, you're not helping.

41:50

Right. And the same thing is happening on the other end, where the guy basically abandons the masculine pursuits at all and pursues a feminacy.

41:58

All that's happening is he's just he's making himself more and more undesirable to women.

42:03

Now, that's just like those things happen on a scale. But then when you intentionally are pursuing femininity, you're not just rejecting masculinity.

42:12

That's where we're having this kind of discussion where you can't even get people to say an intentional pursuit of femininity is wrong.

42:19

So, I mean, I posted that picture of the guy with the long hair, wearing a skirt, hugging puppies. Yeah. And there's plenty of people saying that there's nothing unbiblical about that.

42:28

It's like, well, that's that's not just rejecting masculinity or being a poor man.

42:36

Right. Right. That's intentionally throwing yourself into feminine symbols. And that's part of what we need to talk about.

42:43

Well, the wrong part of it. The only argument I've seen anyone really propose, you know, who's in the camp that you're talking about, the one who's saying, hey, intentional and intentional pursuit of femininity from a man is not biblical.

42:59

It's not unbiblical. The only argument I've seen is like, hey, OK, so the

43:05

Bible, you know, Paul over and over again says, you know, act like men.

43:11

Right. The effeminate will not inherit the kingdom. Right. But what what

43:16

I see them argue is is, hey, so most translations don't even use the word effeminate anywhere.

43:24

So therefore, a guy can be effeminate and it's OK. And specifically in First Corinthians, chapter six,

43:34

Paul gives a list of things. Yeah, verse six, nine. I mean, chapter six, verse nine, you know, he gives off a list of things.

43:44

And one of those one of those things listed off is effeminacy as like a negative, as something that I can't remember.

43:54

He says they won't inherit the kingdom or they won't enter the kingdom. I can't remember exactly. I'm sure. Yeah. Do not perceive.

44:00

Yeah. Yeah. Do not perceive the you know, the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Neither fornicators nor adulterers nor effeminate nor homosexuals will inherit the kingdom of God.

44:11

Now, some translations because of the Greek behind behind this passage, some translations leave out effeminate.

44:20

And they just say, you know, those who participate in homosexual and I can't remember.

44:28

Practice homosexuality. Practice homosexuality. Yeah. And and but then you have other you have other you have a few translations that use effeminacy as its own word on that list.

44:40

But it seems like others sort of combine that Greek word and then the next

44:46

Greek word into homosexuality. And so.

44:51

Right. So is that enough to say, hey, guys, don't have to be masculine? I mean, it's the dumbest argument in the world.

44:59

All right. So, I mean, what you have, you have two words. There are two Greek words. One is arsenic or tie and then the other is Malakoi.

45:05

And so basically what's being argued is that arsenic or tie is the active partner of a, you know, a sodomite relationship.

45:13

And then the Malakoi is the passive partner in the in the sodomite relationship.

45:20

And we'll let your mind fill in the blanks there as far as all those things are concerned. And that may well be the case.

45:26

It may well be that, you know, Malakoi is describing a catamite, you know, the passive partner there.

45:32

You know, basically it can have two different usages. So one usage could be soft or delicate to the touch.

45:40

And then the other usage can be the usage of the passive partner. But like it really doesn't.

45:46

There's a sense in which it just doesn't matter at all. OK. So what you have is you have a group of individuals who basically are demanding that you need to.

45:55

In order for effeminacy to be a sin, you need to have a specific word in the Bible that says effeminate.

46:01

Right. So you need that. So that's what's being demanded. But that's just a silly. Way of arguing.

46:09

Right. Yeah. So, I mean, Paul says to, you know, Paul says basically to to let's see.

46:17

First Corinthians 1613. Be watchful. Stand firm in the faith. Act like men. Be strong. Yeah.

46:23

That's a command, by the way. That's good. And I mentioned that. Yeah, I mentioned that in a meme and someone came along and said, you know, laugh out loud.

46:30

You know, nowhere. Paul has never said that. You know, that's nowhere to be found in Paul. And then I pointed to that verse and that basically caused them to rethink their life at that point.

46:40

But no, I mean, Paul tells men to act like men, to be strong. And over and over again, you see that the continual admonition to men in the

46:47

Bible is to be strong and to be courageous. And this is what they're told to do. And so, like, the issue is, like, what is a man?

46:54

What is a man? And what is a woman? What is masculinity? What is femininity? So if God created men and women and God created men and women different, right?

47:04

So he created them different and he designed for them to have different roles. Then, like, here's the point.

47:12

Like, the point is God's designed men and women different to fulfill different roles. If you're going to be a man, like, to act like a man, like, if you're going to be a man in the way that God calls you to, if you're going to live up to the role that you design, then you have to pursue masculinity, whatever that means.

47:29

Right, because Paul commanded it. Right. Act like men. Yeah, I mean, Paul says act like men, but then

47:37

God made you different, too. Right. So part of this is, like, a design argument, meaning God made you to be a man, so you need to figure out what it means to be a man and pursue it, right?

47:46

And that's what masculinity actually is, is pursuing things, like, pursuing manliness, like, living up to your design.

47:53

And that's going to look different than pursuing femininity, right? Because femininity is a different design and there's different things that femininity is designed to do, right?

48:04

So it's a different type of thing. Like, females are different types of things than men and we're created to do different types of things.

48:12

And so if you want to prepare yourself to be a woman, right, it's like a woman going to a seminary in order to learn to be a pastor.

48:23

Like, it literally makes no sense because you're not called to be a pastor, so why would you train yourself to do something that you're not equipped to do and not qualified to do?

48:31

Yeah. So, like, if I were to throw myself into, you know, like, spend the bulk of my life learning how to have a baby and go to Lamaze classes and, like, it's just nonsense.

48:46

It's like I'm wasting my time here, you know? I'm doing something that just makes no sense whatsoever. And so, like, that's where you have these two different concepts.

48:54

And now, like, the idea of effeminacy, and this is what people don't understand, the idea of effeminacy is where a man is intentionally pursuing the traits, the habits, the mannerisms, the dress of a woman, right?

49:09

And so then, you know, if you want to know why is that wrong, well, you know, there's plenty of passages that you can go to to show that exact same thing.

49:17

So, Deuteronomy 22, 5 says, That's a pretty heavy statement to say it's an abomination, right?

49:35

Yeah, so what is the sin there? The sin there is the sin of effeminacy. Mm -hmm. So you're a man, and you're presenting yourself as a woman by putting on a woman's garment.

49:44

Why is it shameful for a man to have long hair, and why is it shameful for a woman to have short hair? Because you, with your hair, are pursuing, like, a woman with short hair is pursuing, is embodying masculinity.

49:55

A man with long hair is embodying femininity. Yeah, you're rejecting God's design. Right, so a woman's designed to have long hair for her glory, the text says.

50:05

So if you grow your hair out as a man, what you're doing is you're having pretty girl hair. That's not what you're designed to do.

50:12

You're designed for a different purpose, function. So whether or not you're the passive partner in a sodomite union, you know, quote -unquote, what you're doing is you're presenting yourself as a woman sexually, right?

50:25

Mm -hmm. Growing out long hair, you're presenting yourself as a woman with your hair, right? That's effeminate, right?

50:31

So you can be effeminate in your actions, presenting yourself as a passive partner. You can be effeminate in your hairstyle, so you can be effeminate in your dress.

50:39

But you can also be effeminate in your mannerisms, right? Mm -hmm. And you can be effeminate in your rejection of masculinity by, instead of being strong and courageous, as the

50:47

Bible tells you over and over again, you pursue weakness and femininity, right? So the issue is that there's a concept, like, all those things are symptoms of a problem, like a bigger problem, and that's rejecting the design that God has for you.

51:02

And God doesn't like it when you reject that design. So if you're a man who's basically making yourself as girly as you possibly can, you're rejecting the design

51:09

He made you for. And not only is it a sin against Him, it's just you're ruining your life, right?

51:14

Yeah. When you do that, all you're doing, you're making yourself undesirable to women, even more so than you already feel.

51:20

And you're flagging that you're open to same -sex relationships. That's what you're doing. Mm -hmm. And it seems like a lot of times those kinds of people end up pursuing those kinds of relationships instead of normal heterosexual ones, because they're playing into it, right?

51:38

Right. Same thing with the lady who dresses like a man, starts talking like a man.

51:44

All of a sudden, who do you think is going to be attracted to her? Well, men aren't going to be attracted to her, only women. And then it's like, well,

51:49

I guess I'm a lesbian. Right. What you're doing is you're sabotaging your ability to actually live according to God's design.

51:57

You're doing something that's fundamentally an abomination to Him anyways. And then you're preventing yourself, essentially, from being able to follow through with the things

52:07

He's actually called you to. And so for the people that are saying, hey, it's okay for a guy to be effeminate, basically, for them to prove their point, assuming they're

52:17

Christians who believe in the Bible, they have to have some kind of verse or some kind of passage that speaks to the permissibility of a man being allowed to pursue femininity and it be presented as a positive thing, right?

52:41

I mean, that's basically what we're doing. Yeah, the burden of proof can go both ways, right? So they can look at us and say, well,

52:48

I need the burden of proof. You need to show a proof text in the Bible that says effeminacy is wrong. But we can look at them and you say, no, you show me a proof text where it says effeminacy is okay.

52:57

Right. I mean, number one, it's pretty easy to find a proof text that proves what we're saying here.

53:10

But then, you know, on the flip side, I don't know that I can think. I mean, there's nothing. There's nothing.

53:16

Yeah, I mean, you basically have to take everything. The only way that it makes sense is if you have no concept of masculinity and femininity.

53:24

So what's happening is that basically you have a group of people who can't tell the difference between a man and a woman except for certain biological things that are different.

53:31

Right. And so then ontologically, in terms of their makeup, men and women are interchangeable parts.

53:37

They just look, they have cosmetic differences on the outside. Right. Basically, the only difference between a man and woman is that a woman can technically have a baby.

53:45

Right. In the minds of most evangelicals. So if that's your understanding of these things, there's no difference.

53:52

There are only purely cosmetic differences. Period. The end. Then this conversation we're having is incomprehensible.

53:59

Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah, and I think the only other possible argument against what we're saying that I can think of is the person who comes along and basically creates a straw man with the, what did you call that?

54:17

The machismo. The machismo masculinity. Right. Chuck Norris masculinity.

54:24

Yeah, which the Bible, it doesn't condone that kind of masculinity. The kind of masculinity that is aggressive just to be aggressive and get your own way and destroy things.

54:38

That's not the kind of masculinity the Bible tells us to pursue. That's not what honors

54:43

God. I could see them trying to create a straw man with that, and possibly to maybe present

54:53

Jesus in a way that he's not actually presented in the Bible. Because there are a lot of people who are confused and think that Jesus was like a 70s hippie with long flowing hair and flowers in his hair.

55:10

And he's got bell -bottom jeans or something, I assume, drives a Volkswagen van or something,

55:16

I guess. And they would look to that and say, see, Jesus is rebelling against the typical notion of masculinity.

55:24

Even when he gets captured, he doesn't fight back. He tells Peter to not even fight back. Right. He tells

55:29

Peter to not defend him. And so he is breaking the stereotypical norm here.

55:35

And I think that's just a silly thing to try and argue. Number one, it's not really accurate to who

55:41

Jesus was. Because Jesus actually was pretty aggressive in certain scenarios. Cleansing the temple.

55:47

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's just not generally a female thing to do, right?

55:55

Sure. To go and flip over all the guys' tables and make a whip to drive people out with.

56:04

You're right. So it's not really a fair... You have to create some kind of straw man, basically, is what

56:10

I'm saying. To even defend or to try and prove the fact that the

56:16

Bible is saying, hey, it's okay to be a woman. But then you have to ignore all of the Old Testament stuff about clothing, right?

56:25

About the responsibility of a man in leadership that's in the

56:30

Old Testament and the New Testament. You have to ignore Paul saying, hey, I mean, just literally act like men, right?

56:38

That has to mean something. Well, apparently, yeah. On Twitter, it only means...

56:43

Yeah, on Twitter, apparently, only what that means is... Like, it doesn't mean don't act like a woman.

56:50

Uh -huh. But I don't know what that... That's just like, don't act like a woman.

56:55

Okay, so... I don't know what the other option is. If that doesn't mean don't act like a woman, then

57:03

I suppose what it means is don't act like a transgender person.

57:09

I don't know. Okay, so basically the Bible... If we could try and sum all this up, basically the

57:15

Bible is teaching us that, hey, okay, why are effeminate men gross?

57:21

Well, it's because they're rejecting their God -given design in every way possible, really.

57:28

But then why is it wrong? Well, number one, it's wrong because you're rejecting your design, right?

57:34

So you're looking at God and saying, hey, God, I don't accept the way that you've made me.

57:40

I'm going to pursue something better in my eyes, right? But then it's also wrong just because there are actually explicit commands that tell us as men to act like men and avoid effeminacy, right?

57:56

Sure. But then there are other commands that you're basically not even able to pursue anymore and try and obey as a consequence of not behaving like a man, right?

58:13

Right. And those can... Yeah, and it's unloving to everyone around you. It's unloving, yeah, because you're not creating anything.

58:21

It's harder to produce anything of value when you're not creating anything of your strength. Yeah, I mean, if you want to make yourself revolting to your spouse, then try to be the opposite gender than what you actually are.

58:31

And if you want to profoundly confuse your kids and give them no picture about what they should be aspiring towards.

58:39

I mean, the thing is God's designed the world the way that he's designed it. And he's designed women to be attracted to men who are manly.

58:46

And he's designed the world in such a way that men would be attracted to women who are feminine.

58:51

And if you want to reject all that, let's say that you somehow get married, you're still making your spouses, providing them temptations to test you.

59:04

Right, right. Okay, well, I think that's a good place for us to sort of wrap all this up on.

59:10

And hopefully this has given you guys a lot to think about. It has equipped you to, number one, just go to the people around you, especially for guys.

59:21

Go to the other guys around you who really feel like they're struggling with these things and feel like they don't naturally fit into the biblical type of masculinity that's presented in the

59:33

Bible. And so this has given you the tools, basically, and the understanding to come alongside them and help encourage them to pursue masculinity as a command.

59:45

Because I think it's pretty clear that the Bible says men, you know, they need to act like men. And, you know, assuming the same for women.

59:54

Women need to not act like men, but act like women. And so hopefully this has been an encouraging conversation for you guys, something that's really equipped you guys.

01:00:03

We thank you for all the support that you give us each week as you watch the episodes, as you listen to the episodes.

01:00:09

And we look forward to having you on the next one. If you would like to be

01:00:40

Bible Bashed personally, then please know that we also offer free biblical counseling, which you can take advantage of by emailing us.

01:00:48

Now, go boldly and obey the truth in the midst of a biblically illiterate world who will be perpetually offended by your every move.