Bunny Trail Boogaloo

Okay, well, let me pray let me pray and then we'll get started Lord Jesus as we again open up your word

We pray that through your Holy Spirit We may rightly understand believe confess and do according to what you have revealed there in your word.

We ask in Jesus name. Amen All right, so there were questions There mark has a question

Josh has a question as it relates to the sermon My question is twofold.

Can human beings be cast into hell before the Day of Judgment and if they're currently in hell, when the

Day of Judgment rolls around, are they still in hell? Yes, so so the question it relates those of you online if you didn't hear the question the question relates to the intermediate state for the damned and and so Let me let me give you a text on this so that we've got this sorted out and I'm not just Winging it because that would be bad

Let's see here. I need a New Testament text and I'm going to look for Lazarus hang on a second here in the gospel of Luke in particularly.

Here we go Luke 16 All right. So Luke chapter 16 and this is where you'll note that in my in my sermon.

I wasn't as precise as some might want because the question is

Our Pete if people are in hell today Are they taken out of hell at the Day of Judgment only to be thrown back into hell?

Kind of that that's that's a legitimate question and let me see here All right, here we go

Luke chapter 16 verse 19 There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen who feasted sumptuously every day now

When I've preached on this text in the past, I always point out the this this rich fellow, what's his name again?

It's what's his face? We don't know his name

All right And the idea then here is is that in Scripture if you go if you end up in hell

You die in unbelief you go into eternity nameless If your name is written in the

Lamb's Book of Life, you have a name Otherwise Jesus is I don't know who you are. Who are you?

Right? So I always like to point out this for this rich fellow He ends up going to hell without a name and at his gate was laid a poor man named

Lazarus Covered with sores who desired to be fed with whatever fell from the rich man's table Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores.

So the poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side Kopos here you could it gets translated in some translations as Abraham's bosom

So the idea then is is that prior to Christ's death? burial resurrection and ascension

The intermediate state for Christians was in Sheol So if you were to you know

Look look this up kind of in the Old Testament the the place that Everybody who was dead went to was

Sheol and we learned from Jesus in this text that Sheol has two compartments if you would one is referred to as Abraham's bosom and The rich man and the and the rich man also died and was buried in Hades Hades is what gets translated as hell in in many translations as well and so if you want to make a proper distinction between Hades and the

Lake of Fire the ultimate hell then you can make that distinction but Oftentimes and you'll see this in English translations

Hades will get translated as hell And so when it's when we confess in the

Creed Christ descended into hell The the the original text says

Hades he descended into Hades And and so always and again you get questions as it relates to the intermediate state for the unbeliever so the unbeliever then is held in judgment and already beginning to experience the torments of an eternity in The Lake of Fire in Hades and the question is where is

Sheol? Always and again in the Old Testament Sheol is described as being in the inner part of the earth

So, you know those who died they descend to the dead They descend to Sheol and then you remember the one time that Samuel the

Prophet was conjured up by King Saul You know the the witch of Endor Engaged in necromancy and he actually

Samuel actually showed up. It talks about him ascending, you know Coming up from the grave kind of an interesting thing.

So when we talk then about hell There is a wide sense you can talk about hell and then there's a narrow sense that you can talk about hell hell in the wide sense is going to include the intermediate state in Sheol or in Hades for the unbeliever and the in the super narrow sense then is the ultimate terminus for all who persist in sin and unbelief which is the

Lake of Fire and that I would note that Rich man also died was buried in Hades being in torment

He lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off at a side and he caught out father Abraham have mercy on me

Send Lazarus dip the end of his finger in water to cool my tongue for him anguish in this flame

So Hades itself, I would note Qualitatively has probably no major difference between the final end so You know the the torment already begins they they they they are already if you sent and if you were to kind of put it prejudged by virtue of their impenitence and refusal to be forgiven and Then you know the

Day of Judgment will kind of sort all of the rest of it out And then once all of that is sorted out Then the final final and this hell in the narrow sense is the is the

Lake of Fire. Does that make sense? Okay, since Josh didn't ask is isn't here.

He's the one who asked the question Marilyn. You have a follow -up on that. Okay Okay, yeah so the question then is this is this the kind of the heart of the the twisting of Scripture and the creating of the doctrine of purgatory

All right So in Roman Catholic in the Roman Catholic Church, they teach that there's there's another intermediate state for those who die in the faith

Having not dying in a state of having committed a mortal sin. So you still you know, you're still in good standing with God But you haven't achieved sinless perfection in this lifetime

So in their in their way of thinking since the unholy cannot be in the presence of the holy therefore there has to be a time of purgation where God is going to burn off what's left of your sinful nature and So the unbeliever are not the believer who dies in a state of grace, but hasn't achieved perfection

Then goes to purgatory and if you if you look at the artwork and the descriptions as it relates to purgatory in the

Roman Catholic Church, there is no functional difference between hell and purgatory as far as the experience is concerned it's described in terms of fire and burning off and things like this and if you remember the the beginning of the

Reformation that the the the spark that lit the whole thing on fire was

Johann Tetzel Johann Tetzel was sent by Rome by the pontiff for the purpose of engaging in a church fundraising program

And he was selling Indulgences and in History records that this guy was good

I mean as far as how he how he he was able to bring the money in and so Because he was given the ability to sell indulgences

He was he would tell people they can use these indulgences in any manner they wanted and that they could even purchase an indulgence for the for the reason of or for the purpose of Releasing their grandparents or their mother or their father from purgatory and so he had this wonderful little jingle that he used to Sing and I guys remember television commercials with jingles like really hokey ones, you know

When I was growing up we had We had Cal Worthington and his dog spot Cal Worthington in Southern California was like the most notorious

Used car salesman ever and he had a jingle if you're looking for you know If you're looking for a new set of wheels

It was ridiculous, you know But Tetzel had a jingle and his jingle was when a coin in the coffer clings a soul from purgatory

Springs Okay, and when you read the 95 theses which are written against Tetzel and against the whole selling of indulgences

Luther basically one of his arguments was If the Roman pontiff truly had the authority to Spring people out of purgatory

Then he should let everybody out out of the kindness and mercy of his heart for free.

Okay Which I think that was a that's a pretty good point on the part of Luther, right?

so so and I'll show you the text that's used for the purpose of creating the facade that That there's this place called purgatory

Let's see. It's 1st Corinthians 3 1st Corinthians 3 and Here's and I got to do this out of context.

So let me find the way to do it out of context So So I'll read it out of context starting at verse 12

If anyone builds on the foundation with gold silver precious stones wood Straw each one's work will become manifest the day will disclose it because it'll be revealed by fire and the fire will test what sort

Of work each one has done if the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives He will receive a ward if anyone's work is burned up He will suffer loss though.

He himself will be saved but only as through fire You see there it is. We're gonna be saved only as through fire.

Ta -da purgatory Isn't it gone? I'm not buying it.

You guys don't look Lutherans Yeah, and so and then they use a portion from one of the

Maccabees in the Apocrypha where they offer Sacrifices on behalf of the people who died in battle, you know, so all you can offer sacrifices for the dead

Therefore, you know now that that then so everything's out of context and in we the

Apocrypha is not Scripture Jesus never quotes from the Apocrypha is the Word of God ever

None of the Apostles quote from it as if it's the Word of God. It's not so what is going on there in 1st

Corinthians 3 and And so if you I know you're gonna be shocked at my solution for figuring out what's going on here

I'm gonna invoke the three rules for sound biblical exegesis Context context context so our presenting problem in 1st

Corinthians 3 Is begins in verse 1 I but I brothers I could not address you as spiritual people

But as people of the flesh infants in Christ, I fed you with milk not solid food. You were not ready for it

Even now you're not ready for it for you're still in the flesh for while there is jealousy and strife among you

Are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way for when one says I follow

Paul? Another says I follow Apollos. Are you not being merely human?

I follow Roseboro Don't do that Okay We can just get that out.

Just forget that all together. Okay, so what then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed as the

Lord assigned to each of us. I planted Apollos water God gave the growth so neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything

Let that sink in Okay, I'm a nobody Paul's and nobody

All right, the one who plants the one who waters They're nothing only God who gives the growth he who plants and he who waters there one

Each will receive his wages according to his labor For we are God's fellow workers

You are God's field God's building and then watch where he goes with this and this if I can give you a cross -reference

We all know the verse because we've heard pastors say it before I sometimes wonder some pastors actually believe it

But scripture is clear that you be careful if you want to desire to be a teacher in Christ Church because every teacher in Christ Church Automatically gets into a different line on the

Day of Judgment and the line is the stricter judgment line All right, and so what's described here in first Corinthians 3,

I think is part of this stricter judgment So the idea then is is that Paul's making it clear those who preach and teach in the church they are fellow workers with God and And so the idea then is is that there's a stricter judgment

So then he says according to the grace of God given to me like a skilled master builder.

I laid a foundation and Someone else is building on it So let each one of you care how he builds upon it for no one can lay a foundation

Other than that, which is laid which is Jesus Christ Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold silver precious stones wood a straw

Each one's work will become manifest. So think of it this way if the foundation is

Christ now Now this kind of deals with the stricter judgment thing. So you have a pastor who truly believes in Jesus That's not the question whether or not they're saved now

The stricter judgment comes into play and all of their work in the church The building materials are going to be subjected to fire to determine what they were

Did the pastor build with precious stones with gold and silver or did he cut corners?

Did he not build according to code? Did he use schlocky building materials and go?

Right, right. So that's kind of the idea, you know, so and by the way as a pastor

I have all I have all kinds of decisions. I have to make on a weekly basis from week to week I can look at my schedule and say, you know what?

I'd rather go out and do some photography this week I'll just not

Do my job and preparing my sermon. Oh, I'll wing it, you know, in fact,

I'm not even gonna wing it I'm just gonna tell talk about myself and I'm gonna tell some really good jokes All right, I'll tell some good pastor jokes cuz every you guys love those things right

Remember you guys remember our Old Testament text from Numbers today where that where that fellow was complaining that L dad and me dad were prophesying and and and who were they talking to?

Joshua the son of none. So I mean think about it folks think about it. We had L dad me dad and no dad

Right, so I could just stand up comedy every week and and you know, and I could draw a crowd right, you know

We can I can rather than telling you what you need to hear I'll just tell you what you want to hear You guys want to tell want me to tell you how that you can use

Jesus to make you rich Oh, I can do that. Okay. Yeah, right. I can do it so I'm gonna start building with building materials really awful building materials and and I could sit there and go man, look at how big this church is that that that I built here on the foundation of Christ and Jesus is all all right.

Let's check that. Let's test that thing out and he you hear Here's the here's the torch and he just takes your works and he tosses the flame onto it and it goes

Right, so the guy building with schlocky building materials, how is that gonna do in the on the fire?

Not so good right and that's the point here So if anyone builds on the foundation with gold silver precious stones wood hay straw

Each one's work will become manifest For the day will disclose it because it'll be revealed by fire and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done

This isn't purgatory This is this is the stricter judgment bit where all pastors and teachers in Christ Church have their work judged by fire

Well, I look at this text and go I That would be really cool.

Oh, I mean, could you imagine you don't have to imagine this is gonna you we're gonna see this

Actual pastors who've built empires to themselves out of wood hay and straw right and Jesus takes the torch to it and the whole thing burns and What does the text say?

So if anyone is built on the foundation if what he's built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward well, the only thing that's going to survive fire is that Golden silver and precious stone stuff, right?

If anyone's work is burned up. He will suffer loss Though he himself will be saved but only as through fire

Now is that teaching purgatory No, okay. So the purgatory doctrine that's where it comes from is

They twist this text and pours meaning into it. That just doesn't exist And so I one time pointed this out to somebody who was a

Roman Catholic and I was chastised by them And here was their chastisement Pastor Rose, bro, you're not allowed to have individual interpretations of biblical texts.

That's not how the church is interpreted So your interpretation is wrong To which

I said I know how to read Okay, the tech I know the text says what it means and it means what it says

So, all right mark we've been hanging on to your question, let's let's get it on the table I'm gonna brace myself here

Yeah, yours mentions fire, okay, well we used to work for the US Postal Service so this does make sense, you know

Okay, so mark nine let me get there What did

I do Yes, so this is a tough text yeah mark nine and you'll note that that wasn't what

I was Emphasizing in my sermon, but it does show up in the readings. So let's take a look at it mark 940.

What? 49 Okay. So here's the tail end of this and this is this is one of the more difficult

Portions of this passage in fact of the Gospels to exegete So let me back up into our context here.

Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin It'd be better for him of a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea

And in fact just you know, don't let the Mafia get involved. Just do it yourself, right? Yeah, this is what the

Mafia does to those who cross them, right? So if your hand causes your sin cut it off It's better for you to enter life crippled then with two hands and go to the hell of to hell to the unquenchable fire

If your foot caused you to sin cut it off It's better for you to enter life lame. There were two feet to be thrown into hell and you'll note here that you know, you know

This is a different word that used for hell This is Gahanna rather than Hades But they are

English translations will translate both of them as hell if your eye caused you to sin tear it out It's better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye then with two eyes and be thrown into hell

Where the worm does not die the fire does is not quenched for everyone will be salted with fire

Salt is good But if the salt has lost its saltiness, how will you make it salty again have salt in yourselves be at peace with one another and everyone reads this and goes

Huh Okay. Now here's where we have to use kind of the metaphor and I I've always found that in order to get this

I have to throw the cross references in too So here we have a text that is as clear as what?

mud muddy salt, right then Jesus talks this way also again in the

Sermon on the Mount All right, bless for the righteous on my account, okay, so here he goes

Matthew 5 13 You are the salt of the earth, but if the salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltiness be restored?

It's no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trampled under people's feet

Well that clear that up No. All right. So I if This will help you feel any better We I had entire seminary classes whole classroom conversations based on salty texts all right, and there's a reason why is because These texts are not clear and you have to start extrapolating things in order to kind of work this out so when you use the cross reference here salt of the earth and the idea then is is that salt is

Something that makes something tasteful Tasty and without salt it it's bland

It doesn't make any sense and what Christ here is doing in our gospel text and in other places

The salt is a reference to Jesus and you sit there going. How do you figure?

All right. Here's how because there is a little known passage in all in the

Old Testament and one of the things I've noted when I taught through the

Pentateuch was that When you look at the sacrificial systems, okay, all of the different sacrifices that are required

All right You got you got, you know sacrifices for Yom Kippur for guilt offerings for sin offerings and all these other things there is a tiny passage in the

Mosaic Covenant that is super easy to miss and in that text it explicitly says that every single sacrifice

Must be made with salt. Okay, I want you to think about it.

Okay, let me see if maybe see if I can find it I think it's in Leviticus, but I've got to do a little hunting here.

Hold on a second here duplicate tab and I am going to look for salt and There it is, all right

All right. So Leviticus 2 you shall season all your grain offerings with salt You shall not let the salt of the covenant with your

God be missing from your grain offerings with all your offerings you shall offer salt

Okay, so here's here's kind of the implication is is that when you have such an obscure reference

This is the kind of stuff that Sometimes God desires that you read something and go

I have no idea what that means And so you're walking through your day going I just don't know what that means and you're thinking on it

You're thinking on it. You're thinking on it. You talk to other people and they're thinking on it and Just wrestling and wrestling and wrestling.

And so what do you do? You keep reading your Bible and then you come across Leviticus 2 13 you sit there and go wait a second Every single offering has to be offered with salt and you don't see this command except for here and So if you have not read and reread the

Mosaic Covenant as an Old Testament Jew, it's easy to miss this little feature and Then one day you sit there go.

Oh everything has to be offered with salt Okay, so if every single offering has to be offered with salt

Then wait a second here. Everyone will be salted with fire This is talking about judgment

Everyone being salted with fire All right. Now, wait a second here if I'm salted with fire, here's then

I'm Roasting for my sins and it's in the context of suffering for your sins, but then

Jesus says salt is good But if the salt has lost its saltiness, how will you make it salty again?

You sit there and go what's going on here? He kind of switched channels on you real quick here. So here you have

Going back to the Mosaic Covenant every single offering is a substitutionary offering that animal is dying instead of you you are living it is suffering the consequences of your sin and Every single offering has to be offered with salt

Okay, so you either are the one who is going to experience the fires of hell or?

Or the salt then connect that tiny little substance connects it back to Christ because every one of those offerings

Offered with salt is a type and shadow pointing to Jesus So you everyone is salted with fire you've you and I have all been salted with fire

But here's the thing Jesus took that for us He's our sin and so the idea then is is the saltiness is a reference to his death on the cross

Salt is good. But if the salt has lost its saltiness, how will you make it salty again answer?

What's he talking about here? the preaching of the gospel If somebody is out there preaching

Christ But not preaching him crucified for our sins and the gospel isn't the core of their preaching and teaching

You have a salt list Christianity The salt is connected to the sacrifices and to these sacrifice to Christ So have salt in yourselves and be at peace with one another

Oh if salt is referring to the sacrifice of Christ I can have salt in myself and then the result the result of that is what peace with everybody else

So as soon as you can connect the salt to the sacrifices and to these sacrifice Christ and how it's connected

Then you can start to unravel these texts, but fantastic question. Did that help?

Okay. All right. That was pretty salty me to ask that All right.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes Mm -hmm

Preservative yep That's right

Yeah That's right. Salt will draw infection out It'll also preserve right exact and that and see when you start then connecting the gospel to the salt

Then you can talk about the properties, right? Yeah, you could yeah, yeah so you can assault a fire

Yeah, sorry my apologies here, all right, let me check questions here in our chat make sure we haven't missed anything

Dane had a question about the sermon and I believe it was the same question Is it that Josh had?

Okay had the same question. Oh good So so my question then is for you all y 'all have we answered your questions effectively as it relates to Hades and to salt

Yeah, okay. Good new heaven and new earth. We net we get new bodies So with those cast into the lake of fire it is there to be done

Is it is it their bodies for eternity? Here's the thing at the resurrection when

Jesus returns Every single human being is raised from the dead in a body that does not die

Kind of work that out. Okay All right So Carmen says why was no one trying to save anyone from Shale in the

Old Testament like no other people Would go to heaven than Jews So car Carmen that's not exactly true

So when we especially as we're working our way through the book of Jeremiah note the themes over and over again in the book of Jeremiah calling the people of Judah to repent of their sins and To be forgiven and that they would avert

God's wrath which is which in Jeremiah Jeremiah preaches very overtly about hell and that the ultimate consequence of Persistence and idolatry would not only be

God's judgment with the destruction of Jerusalem, but that they would suffer in hell Jeremiah talks in these ways and we'll see that but then you'll note that you'll also see in God calling

Judah to repent Part of the themes that you see in the prophets is is that with the children of Israel?

repenting of their sins and believing in God that God would bless them and that God by blessing them that that would cause the fear of Yahweh to to come into the hearts of those who out were outside of Israel, so So God was absolutely

Concerned about Gentiles as well and indeed he promises in the gospel in Genesis 15

That the seed of Abraham would be a blessing to all nations That the idea then is is that they always the intent of God was to use the

Jews For the purpose of bringing the Messiah But that the all nations would be saved and forgiven as a result of Christ That was always the intent and it's very clearly taught out taught out in the

Old Testament as well The Jews had a really pernicious way of kind of thinking that they had the super inside scoop and that they just preferred that Everybody else would go to hell and you can see this by the way when

I You really want to get an example of this? I always come back to to Jonah.

All right Always and again the worst preaching ever is on Jonah, but when you read the book out, it's really fascinating so We'll take a look at the outside chapters rather than the inside bit

I'll remind you what's on the inside The Word of Yahweh came to Jonah the son of Amittai saying arise and go to Nineveh that great city and call out against it

For their evil has come up before me But Joseph Jonah rose to flee to Tarshish from the presence of Yahweh He went down to Joppa found a ship going to Tarshish so he paid the fare and went down into it to go with them to Tarshish away from the presence of Yahweh and Always and again bad preaching on this text will go something like this though So when the

Lord tells you to do something that's crazy as it might sound Don't don't you flee to your

Tarshish or God will cause a fish to come and swallow you up You know, no bad bad really bad

Okay, the better question to ask because it's actually answered in the quote in the text. Why is

Jonah going the other way? Okay What we know about Nineveh. Okay, so the the

Ninevites they are Well, they're so brutal in war that they made they make the

Nazis look like little schoolgirls like upstarts Alright that it was the Ninevites and the

Assyrians themselves that they They were the ones who invented the prototype for crucifixion but rather than using a cross and a cross beam what they would do with the

Men that they captured who fought against them after they would win a battle They would take their bodies and they would put them on a pike and then you know

And then take their bodies and put them up in the air These guys were horrible and they and they didn't stop at torturing men they tortured women and children and the things they did was horrible and so here

God says to Jonah arise go to Nineveh and Call out against it for their evil has come up before me and Jonah heads the other way

Why and this kind of gets to the Carmen's point? When you when you read

What what happened Jonah finally is compelled by God, all right There's no way you can run from God.

So Jonah tries to run away. God causes the fish to swallow him He spends three days cooling his heels inside of a fish was just had to be wonderful No air conditioning smells like stomach acids and fish

Okay, I'm sure he came out bleached But but you know, so when the Word of the

Lord comes to him a second time he's all fine I'll go right so here's what happens Jonah calls out against them and What happens the

Ninevite? The Ninevites repent in Jonah chapter 3 the word reached the king of Nineveh.

He rose from his throne removed his robe Covered himself with sackcloth and sat in ashes.

And by the way, Jesus makes it clear in his preaching These Ninevites They're in heaven

Okay, he said Jesus said to the Jews who wouldn't believe in him that the Ninevites would rise up on the day of judgment

And condemn them for their unbelief Let that one sink in all right

So the king issued a proclamation published throughout Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles

Let neither man nor beast herd nor flock taste anything Let them not feed or drink water

But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth and let them call out mightily to God Let everyone turn from his evil way from the violence that is in his hands who knows

God may turn and relent and turn from his fierce anger so that we may not perish and When God saw what they did how they turned from their evil way

God relented of the disaster that he had said that he would do to them and he did not do it next sentence but it displeased

Jonah exceedingly and He was angry and He prayed to Yahweh and he said

Oh Yahweh. Is this not what I said? Yeah, you kind of have to throw some attitude in this isn't this what

I told you I Said this when I was in my country. That's why

I made haste to flee to Tarsus for I knew you were a gracious God merciful slow to anger abounding in steadfast love relenting from disaster

Okay, I wanted to see hellfire smoke brimstone

Ah, you forgave Right So I would note

Carmen that God seems to care a lot about them Ninevites, right? And you'll note the

Jews had a hard time Sharing the mercy of God with others. Okay, Jonah would prefer that they all burn in hell

Rather than be forgiven. Okay So and so he has a full -on temper tantrum

Therefore now Oh Yahweh take my life kill me. I would rather die than live in a world with those

Ninevites are forgiven They might want to sit in my pew at church. All right All right, so the

Lord said Do you do well to be angry? Jonah doesn't answer so Jonah went out of the city sat to the east of the city and made a booth for himself there

He sat under it and shade until it should see what would come of the city He's thinking maybe

God will send the nuclear winter after all So Yahweh appointed a plant and made it come up over Jonah.

So now God's having mercy on Jonah the guy who's completely Disrespected God, right?

Yeah, right Yeah, you know that Jonah isn't here. I decree declared a judgment of God.

No, he Did that right So he made it come over and so God appointed a plant made it come over Jonah that it might be shade over his head

To save him from his discomfort So Jonah was exceedingly glad because of the plant All right

But then when dawn came up the next day God appointed a worm that attacked the plant So that it withered and when the

Sun rose God appointed a scorching east wind and the Sun beat down on the head of Jonah So that he was faint and and he asked that he might die

It is better for me to die than to live Kind of temper tantrum is this man, but God said to Jonah.

Do you do well to be angry for the plant? Jonah said yeah, I do well angry angry enough to die

You know, he's saying it like this right so Yahweh said you pity the plant for which you did not labor

Nor did you make it grow which came into being in a night and perished in a night? And should

I not pity Nineveh that great city in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand persons Who do not know their right hand from their left and also much cattle?

the end And you sit there you go.

Oh God did labor. God is the creator of all of us

Right. He the Lord is the maker of heaven and earth and he has pity on his creation He has mercy on us and so you'll note that God's heart even for the war criminal

Violent no good dirty rotten in a bite is that they be forgiven and you'll know the gospel is a scandal to Jonah the forgiveness of sins scandalizes him

Scandalizes people to this day. Is it any wonder we would prefer not to talk about the forgiveness of sins?

I would note today's cancel culture They're like Jonah Yeah Jonah was like the original cancel culture guy just cancel

Nineveh. Would you already? Okay God says nope forgiven

Yeah, we all are that's the thing you can't you can't read this and sit there and go And what does

Christ say pray for your enemies What Yeah, and the cattle to It's not that I also made the cattle and I care about them too.

I care about the creation You know, that was very moving. Thank you What why are you looking at me like that Oh All right, all right, let's go back to questions

I can see where we're going here Let's see here. All right, Louise says in the

Catholic Church. We were told that purgatory was scriptural. The verse they used was Matthew 18 Matthew 18 34 the wicked servant won't get out of jail until he pays the last penny.

Oh Lord have mercy That is so bad okay, so You brought it up Louise.

Let's take a look at this text I feel like you know, it's so funny in the first catechism class adult catechism class this week

I felt like I was doing the Bible answer man and just sometimes, you know You get all these questions just kind of come up and so all right, let's do this.

Let's go for it All right, Matthew 18 Fascinating an important text and we'll take a look at it in context.

So let's see here Woe to the world for temptations to sin Do not despise little ones.

All right, here we go. Verse 15. Here's the beginning of the context All right. This is the text that deals with church discipline

All right, if your brother sins against you, so this is a believer in Christ This is somebody you go to church with and guess what do church people sin against each other

Yeah Yes, they do okay, huh, all right, so what what do we do so when somebody sins against you

Jesus says get on Facebook and air all their dirty laundry on the internet and make them look like Complete.

No, he doesn't say that. Okay. Here's what he says So if your brother sins against you you go and tell him his fault between you and him alone

If he listens to you've gained your brother So no Christ is very clear the one he's siding with is the one who was sinned against and His goal is that the one who committed the sin would repent and like the

Ninevites be Forgiven, right? Okay But if he does not listen

Take one or two others along with you that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses.

Oh Somebody's innocent until proven guilty remember that scripture is very clear that when it comes to charges charges have to be established and They have to be weighed by the proper people who are in the right

Offices to make judgments based upon those things. What do we do today?

We try people today in the court of public opinion via social media. Uh -huh No Charges have to be established by witnesses now, by the way, this doesn't deal with like false teachers

Somebody's teaching something publicly that's false and you can pull into their YouTube channel and play the thing and say that's what they said

And here's what the scripture says. That's not what this is talking about So over and again, I get people who say to me, you know, Chris, you know

You say a lot of terrible things about Kenneth Copeland. Have you reached out to him to talk to him privately?

No This is not what you're supposed to do with a false teacher. The in Matthew 18 is when somebody has sinned against you

Personally, all right So now you take it two or three witnesses so that the charge may be established and if he refuses to listen to them

Then you tell it to the church You now make this a church matter.

And why are you telling it to the church so that everyone goes? Oh, I can't believe that they did that.

Let me get on the phone and share it with everybody in Oslo No, you tell it to the church so that everybody in the church now joins in Singing the chorus repent brother repent and be forgiven be reconciled

The church is now involved not two or three people everybody in the church is involved Praying and reasoning with this fellow to get him to turn from a sin if he refuses to listen even to the church

Then you go all Burger King on him He gets to have it his way. You don't want to be forgiven.

You don't want to be reconciled Okay, and this is where excommunication happens

Then he's to be to you like a Gentile or a tax collector not real quick question here How did

Jesus teach treat those Gentiles and tax collectors? Did he make sure to avoid them at all costs never be found in their presence?

No, what how did Jesus treat him? Like everybody else Yeah, all right, right.

So the idea that in treat is so when somebody's excommunicated It's not so that you can sit there and go like this.

Well glad we got rid of that guy Okay. No now we're back to the beginning.

We're gonna we're gonna come on the church hear the gospel Come and and you know and repent, right?

So we're just back to the beginning and we're gonna evangelize that person in love

You know excommunication is not for the purpose of having somebody end up in hell

Excommunication is for the purpose of that person recognizing their sin and repenting always in this context

And I always tell a story that that I experienced I you know I'm one of the rare people who's actually seen excommunication occur and This was really early on when my wife and I were very new to the

Lutheran Church We were attending Holy Trinity Lutheran Church in Hacienda Heights, California. It was a little bit of a trek

We lived in Irvine at the time but that was the closest really truly confessional church and So we would pack the kids up and drive all the way out to Hacienda Heights and we had only been attending there for a few months when one of the younger fellows in the congregation his wife was in a full -on adulterous affair with somebody and Her husband found out about it and he confronted her and he desired for her to repent and for them to be reconciled and to save the marriage and She was having none of it.

So he brought it to the elders and says my wife is you know Sleeping with this fella and the elders got involved and called her to repent and she refused so then they brought it to the pastor and the pastor met with her and she let she

Basically gave the pastor what for you know, he describes what went down as really being obstinate

You know her standing around I this man's my soulmate. I love him. I don't love my husband anymore

God would never condemn me for this adult, you know for for having this man and all this kind of stuff

And she refused to repent so he brought it up to the church following Matthew 18 The church got involved in calling her to repent and she basically stopped answering her phone

Wouldn't allow people to contact her and so the church notified her that the following Sunday that the divine service would begin with the right of excommunication and that they were going to turn her over to Satan and So the she showed up for it too.

That was a weird part so there she is she's sitting in the back of the church and Barb and I are sitting in the back of the church with our kids because that's the safest place to sit when you got kids that are as swirly as mine were and so, you know, which she's like on the pew over from us and and That was one of the most uncomfortable moments.

I have ever lived through in my life having them read Matthew 18 the excommunication text and then

Saying to her that you know that her sins are bound to her and that and she's no longer permitted to come to the

Lord's Supper and should she come to church that the absolution doesn't apply to her and and that they were handing her over to Satan for the purpose of saving her soul and After they had excommunicated her she walked out and that was the last

I ever saw of her Well, I got word years later that She eventually did repent now.

It was too late to save her marriage. She repented and Confessed her sin and her adultery and cried out to God for mercy and She not only repented she was restored into full fellowship

All right, but they followed Matthew 18 to the T and the thing is is that? You'll note that that it sounds so outrageous to our ears because when was the last time you've heard anything like this and This for us was in the early 90s

And I haven't heard of any excommunication since then but that doesn't mean there hasn't been any but the church has kind of lost its

Lost its backbone to follow this because you'll note then that when Jesus talks about This this excommunication.

It's in the context of something else and let me explain what the context is

If You just roll back up into Matthew 18 verse 10 see that you do not despise one of these little ones there we go again

She's talking about his believers as little ones once he cares deeply for it I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my father who is in heaven

So what do you think of a man has a hundred sheep and one of them has gone astray? Does he not leave the 99 on the mountains and go in search of the one that went astray?

And if he finds it truly I say to you he rejoices over it more than over the 99 that never went astray

So it is not the will of my father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish That's the immediate thing that Jesus says then then if your brother sins against you in other words the the process of Matthew 18 is

The means by which Christ goes after his lost sheep When somebody sins against another person and refuses to repent and to be reconciled and refuses to be forgiven

That's a missing sheep So then you'll note that the steps of Matthew 18 are the means by which the

Good Shepherd goes Hunting and searching for his lost sheep and we somehow have got it wrong when we think that Excommunication is all about washing our hands of a person and casting him out

That's not the point The point is is that to kind of wake them up to just how serious this all is so that they will repent

All right and then So then he says so let him be to you as a

Gentile as the tax collector truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven Whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

This is talking about the office of the keys All right So the sins you forgive will have already been forgiven the sins you retain or are retained

So Christ here is talking about this So again, I say to you if two or more of you agree on earth about anything

They ask it'll be done for them by my father in heaven And this is in the context of church discipline then for where two or three are gathered in my name there

I am among them. This is true for all congregations But Christ is reminding them then that when you even when you gather for the purpose of excommunication

He's present with you for that purpose. All right So it's then in this context that the story continues

Peter came up and said to Jesus Lord How often will my brother sin against me and I forgive him as many as seven times?

Because Peter's starting to work this all out. Wait a second if I these guys who are sinning against me, you know, if if I If they go on like this continuing to ask me to be to forgive them after they've sinned against me

I'm gonna end up, you know Being abused, you know, these guys are gonna sin against me constantly.

They're gonna take advantage. So so where's the limit for this Jesus? So he he comes up with he think what he thinks is a generous number as many as seven times

Oh, yeah. All right, you could just see it, you know So could you imagine the seven times rule when somebody sins against you just want to let you know

Ashley You're up to five Okay, two more and we're done.

Okay, right Could you imagine how that would work out? Right? All right, Jesus said

I don't say to you seven times It's 77 times or you know the Greek 70 times 7 is this huge ginormous number, right?

And then he goes therefore note the verse 23 begins with therefore, okay This is all in this context then therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king

Who wished to settle accounts with his servants when he began to settle one was brought to him who owed him?

10 ,000 talents. Let me give you a little perspective on this number one. The king is Jesus. It's pretty it's you know

Let's just get that on the table. The king is Jesus and the debt is ten Thousand talents, how much is a talent about a hundred pounds?

hundred pounds so ten thousand one hundred pound units of gold

How does a person rack up a debt like that? I? mean California isn't even a wash in this much red tape, you know, you know red ink, right?

How do you huh? I was I was scrolling Instagram because you know,

I like put my photography there And they had an advertisement for a company that will help you invest in gold

If you give them a hundred dollars a month and every time you can afford they'll send you two grams of gold

How long will it take to? to purchase two grams Answer well about two and a half months every two and a half months

They will send you a gold ingot of two and a half grams of gold. Okay Okay Okay, great in other words, it's gonna take a long time to get any gold that's measurable gold is precious

Gold has always been expensive so this guy owes 10 ,000 talents might as well be a bazillion dollars and then you got to do the dr.

Evil thing a bazillion dollars Anyway, all right. All right and By the way, if you want to know who this fellow is

That's you So, let's make sure we got the characters work out. Jesus is the king.

You're the servant who owes 10 ,000 talents and Since he could not pay

His master ordered him to be sold with his wife his children and all that he had and payment to be made

He's not gonna get much for that guy. All right Since you know what it says he could not pay and by the way, that's your lot in mine

I there's no way I can pay my debt to Christ. No way. No way you can pay your debt to Christ So what is

Jesus? So what does he do? So the servant he fell on his knees posture of prayer and humbleness

Imploring him have patience with me. I will pay you everything No, you're not okay,

I always like to point out what do you think the interest is on 10 ,000 talents of gold?

Okay. No the interest daily interest Even if it were like even if that if it were 2 %

You would have to be making a lot of money a year just to make the payments on the interest right

Yeah, right you you ain't paying this back Okay, you ain't paying this

But have patience with me. I'll pay you everything and then why did would it say out of pity for him? The master of the servant released him and forgave him the debt

The whole lot of it 10 ,000 talents 100 % fully forgiven.

Don't tell me the gospel isn't good news Right and Don't tell me the gospel doesn't make it so that the dirty rotten sinners don't get off scot -free

They absolutely do who ends up eating this debt the king right and Rather than praising

God and doing an Ebenezer Scrooge Right. We've all seen a Christmas story, right?

So, you know, there's Ebenezer Scrooge He has that night where he runs into all of these different ghosts and he realizes he's gonna end up in the grave

Alone and just terrible and what an awful person he is and he wakes up that morning and realizes he's still alive

And what does he do? He buys the Christmas goose and he can't wait to spread all this

Christmas cheer to let everybody Share in the joy that he has and then of course it all ends with tiny

Tim saying and God bless us everyone Right. That's what's supposed to happen here

This guy just got forgiven the United States national debt

Totally forgiven scot -free. He should be spontaneously singing a

Broadway musical The hills are alive with the sound of debt freedom, you know, right

No, what does he do? All right.

So here's your context Louise. I'm blaming you for all of this by the way. All right I'm sorry.

That was looked a lot like the hippos from Fantasia. My apologies Okay, all right

All right So when the servant went out he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii

Let me put that into perspective for you $1 ,000 For a day laborer a month's wages

That's it Right. And what does he do? He seizes him and began to choke him saying pay what you owe

All right. I want my five dollars, right? Better off dead reference for those of you who know what

I'm talking about, right? Okay You have to have grown up in the 80s to know that this reference because no one else really watches that movie

Anyway, so pay me what you owe so his fellow servants fell down Pleaded with him have patience with me.

I'll pay you hmm This sounds oddly familiar right and he

Refused and he went and put him in prison until he should pay the debt When his fellow servants saw what had taken place

They were greatly distressed and they went and reported to their master all that had taken place

Then his master summoned him and said to him You wicked servant

I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me And should you not have had mercy on your fellow servants as I have had mercy on you oops

Wait a second. Don't we pray something like this? Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us, right?

So in anger his master delivered him to the jailers until he should pay all his debt

So also my heavenly father will do to every one of you if you don't forgive your brother from your heart

So louise putting this all back in context, did you see anything they're talking about purgatory? I didn't see anything about purgatory

This is talking about the fellow who claims that he's a believer in jesus I've had all my sins forgiven

And is the most merciless unforgiving? Person on planet earth. It's totally inconsistent

We forgive because he first forgave us we love because he first loved us And the implication of the gospel then is is that because we're at peace with god that that You know the gospel then flowing over us then pours out to other people

And this comes back to what christ said you are the salt of the earth

If the salt has lost its saltiness, what good is it? If we lose the gospel we've lost everything

Everything And if we're not treating each other with kindness mercy

Gentleness love respect and if we're not at peace with one another in church Do we believe the gospel do we really recognize that we've been forgiven a bazillion

A trillion gazillion dollars in debt that we owe to god because of our sin

That's the point of the text Right has nothing to do with purgatory And if I were a roman catholic,

I would be embarrassed to even Take this text and try to use it as a pretext for purgatory because it's not

All right All right. Last question. So since we spoke about jonah, can you explain the three days and three nights scriptures?

Because it seemed two nights and three days You ask a great question carmen. All right, so I actually wrote an article about this years ago.

All right, so here's the thing When you when you tally up the the the verses where jesus talks about the fact that he's going to be dead

One sometimes he says he'll rise on the third day and then in the reference to jonah.

He says he's going to be Uh, he's going to be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights And here is your issue.

Okay is that both are true, but you have to learn how to think like a jew and let me explain

Okay, when does the new day begin? for a jew

It's unsaid Okay and When does okay, so if that's when the new day begins when the sun goes down That's when a new day begins

All right now here's where there's a prophecy and I gotta I gotta hunt this down real quick because I gotta find my

Text and this requires me to go to my blog And on my blog,

I actually wrote about this. So it's um, uh fighting for the faith. You know, I gotta spell it right

Fighting for the faith .com. I'm gonna go to the captain's log. Hold on a second here

And let's go to captain's log and I actually wrote it. Whoa. Hello. Sorry about that.

Josh. I know your ears are bleeding now Okay, hang on a second here. Let me hunt this down Let's see here.

Do do scrolling scrolling scrolling ride Hang on a second here. Um Let's see here.

No No I'm gonna i'm gonna hunt this down There it is.

Okay Okay, so in I think it's in the prophet amos and i'm gonna let this load up, okay uh, let's okay, so uh, so a lot so here's what

I This is my contribution Biblical proof that jesus died on friday not on wednesday

Uh, a lot of ink has been spilled regarding which day jesus died on on the one hand

The gospel narratives make it clear that jesus died on the day before the sabbath saturday Uh, and so I quote luke 23 here

But on the other hand if it's true that jesus died on a friday Then it appears that there is a contradiction in scripture

Jesus himself explained that he would be in the tomb for three days and three nights And here's your reference, uh carmen

Matthew 12 40 for just as jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish So will the son of the man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth?

Well, if you tally it up even using the jewish way of keeping time something something's missing

So when someone quickly sums up the days and nights that jesus was in the heart of the earth If he died on friday, the math doesn't just doesn't seem to add up.

So so you have friday night Jesus is crucified at nine in the morning And he dies at the ninth hour, which is three in the afternoon

So there's your first day and by the way in the jewish way of thinking any part of a day is considered like a whole Day, so you got one day two days and he rises on the third but he says three days three nights

So you got saturday night? This is your first day sunday So this is your second day and this is your third day

So in order to solve this resolve this problem It's helpful to know that jews do not count days according to a 24 hour time period they count days according to night day cycles

This way of counting days is revealed in genesis 1 and there was evening there was morning the first day

There was evening there was morning the second day you got the idea So note scripture reveals that a new day begins at sunset not midnight

But even knowing this information doesn't totally solve the apparent contradiction So the reason is is that when you count up the days and nights?

Jesus was in the quote heart of the earth if he died on a friday you come up one day short Okay, one night short.

So jesus dies during the day Friday, so you got plus one saturday Jesus is dead during the night plus one day and during the day plus one day you got the idea

Jesus is dead. So three days and two nights. You're missing you're missing part of it So no matter how to no matter how you add it up.

We're missing a night All right uh -huh but and so we got just as jonah was in the

It was three days and three nights in the belly of fish. So the son of man So some have tried to resolve this by seeming contradicting by postulating that jesus had to die on a wednesday.

That's that's um, That's that's another way, but there's a real simple solution. It's found in amos 8

Verses 8 and 9. Let me read it to you and on that day declares. Yahweh elohim I will make the sun go down at noon and darken the earth in broad daylight.

The missing night is while christ is on the cross Okay That's the missing night

So remember jesus dies in the dark He dies in the dark So if you read that right god all the way back in the old testament told us that he was going to cause on that day

The day of crucifixion the sun to go down at noon So what time of the day during jesus's crucifixion did the sun stop shining answer?

It was now about the six hour noon and there was darkness over the whole earth until the ninth hour 3 p .m

So if god caused the sun to go down at noon and there was darkness from 12 p .m

Did jesus die at night or or did he die during the day? He died at night all right, and so um, so Answer since god called the light day in the darkness

He called night the answer is obvious jesus died in the sunless darkness caused by god when he made the sun's light to fail

At noon on that day and god calls darkness that he calls that night So with this data then we can now accurately make an accounting of the sequence of day and night which took place on good friday

Here's what it really looks like friday night. This is the night. Jesus is betrayed Uh during the day then, uh, he's crucified at noon

The sun goes down and it's nighttime and then you have the beginning of a new day when the sun begins shining again after his death

So now we've got three days and three nights and it's all because you have to just pay attention to the details

So jesus does rise on the third day for sure and he is three days and three nights

In the heart of the earth because he dies at night So that's the answer to your question carmen, which is a great one, by the way

All right. I've got to wrap up here. So peace to you brothers and sisters and lord willing.