Keep sharing good news without ads.
No description available
Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer
George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend
Jim Thorpe. It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,
Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.
It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.
And now here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,
Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet
Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.
This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 11th day of July, 2024.
Before I introduce my guest and our topic of the day, I was just informed this morning that another dear senior saint has gone home to eternity with our
Lord, Savior, God, and King Jesus Christ. His name is
Gary D. Long, and he has long served his
King Jesus and the Body of Christ as a faithful ambassador for the gospel of sovereign grace.
And over the years, I have given away dozens of copies of his book,
Definite Atonement. In fact, I strongly urge everyone who listens to this program to go to Amazon.
It's still available at Amazon. Definite Atonement by Gary D. Long.
And that booklet was a truly helpful aid, and even in my own life, in getting to understand, appreciate, and love even more the precious doctrine of Definite Atonement, which has also been nicknamed
Limited Atonement, Particular Redemption, and Substitutionary Atonement. And I strongly urge you to get that.
But Gary D. Long was in his mid -80s when he went home to his master, and we ask of you to please pray for the
Long family and for everyone mourning the loss of this great elder statesman of the sovereign grace movement amongst
Baptists in the United States. And I want to thank again
Pastor Bill Sasser for giving me the news today. Well, it's quite providential that the first and only time that I ever met the aforementioned
Gary D. Long was also the first and only time I've ever met face -to -face my guest today.
And I had no idea, obviously, and neither did he, that our brother
Gary D. Long would be going home to glory today on the same day that we are having an interview.
My guest today is Paul R. Karstens, who has served the
Body of Christ in Cape Town, South Africa, as an elder and a teacher at the
Bible Institute of South Africa, Cape Town Biblical College, and the
School for Biblical Church Leadership. I met them both on the same day in Franklin, Tennessee, at the church where the aforementioned
Bill Sasser is the pastor, Grace Church at Franklin. You hear commercials every single day for Grace Church at Franklin.
They are a faithful supporter financially of this program. But I met my guest today,
Paul R. Karstens, and the late Gary D. Long on the same day at the
John Bunyan conference several years ago there in Franklin, Tennessee. So it is quite a remarkable act of God's providence that we have him on today.
And today we are going to be addressing the training of pastors in the doctrines of sovereign grace in South Africa.
It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Trepans, Iron Radio, Paul R.
Karstens. Greetings, brother. Hi, Chris.
Hi, Chris. Thank you for having me on your show. Oh, it's great to have you on the program, brother.
Well, why don't you first and foremost tell our listeners about Cape Town Biblical College?
Chris, Cape Town Biblical College is a very small school in the northern suburbs of Cape Town.
Cape Town is quite a big city, probably in the region of about 4 .5 million people.
And the school was started a number of years ago by a Korean lady who had a vision to train pastors.
But she never had a faculty. She never had a teaching staff.
And so she asked a number of us who were who are in ministry, either teaching or in pastoral ministry, to come and assist in the training of pastors in one of the regions of Cape Town.
And so it's a fairly young school, probably been around for about 15 years.
And that's as long as I've been teaching there. So at one stage
I taught at two schools, the Bible Institute of South Africa for 22 years. And then alongside of that, also teaching at Cape Town Biblical College.
I hope that helps you a little bit. Sure. And tell us now about the School for Biblical Church Leadership.
Chris, we started training, we started the training or the idea of School for Biblical Church Leadership probably about five years ago, just before COVID struck.
And the burden was to reach out to pastors in the more rural areas who will never get the opportunity of coming to Bible colleges in the cities.
And my burden was to get theological education, basic Bible training out to pastors.
And so instead of pastors coming to us, we decided to go to them in the rural areas.
And that idea started about five years ago. And so the idea really was for pastors who are in full time ministry with no training, pastors who were bivocational to stay in their jobs and pastors to stay with their families.
And we would make the effort then with a theological background to go and train them in basic Bible knowledge, which they would never have received had we not had the burden to go to them and so forth.
And that's where we came up with the School for Biblical Church Leadership. Great. Well, if anybody wants more information, the website to go to is ctbiblical .co
.za. C -T, which stands for Cape Town, biblical .co
.za. And God willing, we'll repeat that later on in the program. Also, before I forget, and to make sure you're aware of this before we run out of time at the end of the program, my guest today,
Paul Carstens, is preaching at two churches. He's already been preaching here in the
United States, but he's preaching at two more churches before he returns to Cape Town, South Africa.
And the first is a Beaver Baptist Church of Beaver, Pennsylvania.
And when are you preaching there, Paul? This coming Sunday. This coming
Sunday? Yeah, this coming Sunday, yes. And if you want more information about that, go to beaverbaptist .org,
beaverbaptist .org. And then following that, he is preaching at Gospel Fellowship Church of Sussex, located in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.
And I'm assuming that will be the following Sunday? It will be the following Sunday, yes, on the 21st, yes.
And if anybody wants more details on the Gospel Fellowship of Sussex in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, go to gospelfellowshipsussex .com,
gospelfellowshipofsussex .com. Well, we have a tradition here,
Paul, on Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio. Whenever we have a first -time guest, such as yourself, we have that guest give a summary of their salvation testimony that would include any kind of religious atmosphere in which you may have been raised and what kind of providential circumstances our
Sovereign Lord raised up in your life that drew you to himself and saved you. So I would love to hear your story.
I'll be glad to share that. I grew up in a Roman Catholic home. And my mom and dad got converted in 1973 in an evangelical
Reformed Anglican church in Cape Town. And very shortly after that, in 1975, or even in the years before that, they would take us to church, whereas before they would never go to church.
And so all of us children tagged along with them to go to church.
We were not exactly happy about that, as young children. Hey, sometimes, even as an adult,
I'm not happy about it. We very reluctantly did go, and we would go to the morning and the evening service, and that made things worse, because in the day, evening services were very, very well attended.
In fact, they were converted in an evening service. And there was a radical change in their lives.
They showed a difference that we saw. They were never churchgoers before.
They always sent us to church when we were in the Catholic church. And then they got saved.
The whole household changed. And they took us to church. And one Sunday evening in November 1975,
I heard the gospel being preached by a very well -known preacher in Cape Town at St.
James Church, where incidentally, a number of years later, the St. James Church massacre took place.
But in 1975, I sat and heard the gospel being preached from John 3, and I surrendered my life to Christ.
And almost immediately, I understood what that gospel meant.
I think there was a lot of preparation that took place in my life. A few years previously, one of the priests that was involved in our school introduced the gospel in little ways, because he got saved.
And so that prepared the way for the Lord giving us, myself and my sister, a few months later, salvation.
When you said the priest gave you the gospel, was he a
Roman Catholic priest or a Reformed Anglican priest? He was a Roman Catholic priest who got converted.
And he was still in the Roman Catholic church? He was still in the Roman Catholic church, and eventually he got booted out.
Well, thank God for that. Yeah. And he would introduce us to, you know, the early choruses and things like, you know, reach out and touch the
Lord as He passes by and all those made an impression, early impressions on our lives.
And I think one of the things that made an indelible impression upon my life is that he would let us do these parables.
And the parable that we did that made an impression, I now realize, or many years later,
I realized that God was using it to prepare. It was the rich man and Lazarus. And we would do the play as, you know, primary school children on the rich man and Lazarus.
And I was Lazarus. And as we went through that play, something struck me that the
Lord was busy speaking to me. And foundations were being laid in preparation for a few years later in 1975 where God would use all of that background in my own salvation.
So, you know, that's wonderful. We must never forget that, you know, God often prepares our hearts in amazing ways to eventually bring the truth, you know, to our hearts.
By the way, do you keep in touch with this former Roman Catholic priest? No. You know, we lost contact with him.
My mother said that, you know, he died very, very shortly after that. Oh, okay.
Yeah. I mean, it's many, many years ago. We're talking about, I mean, that's a long time ago, 1970, you know, 1973, 74, 75, of course, was quite some time ago.
Well, that is just another reminder to our listeners and to me, myself, that we should never view someone like a
Roman Catholic priest as beyond any hope of redemption and avoid evangelizing them.
One of my dearest friends who is now in heaven, Richard Bennett, who edited a book published by Banner of Truth, Far From Rome, Near to God, the testimony of 50 converted
Roman Catholic priests. Richard was a dear friend of mine. He actually, even though he was a man of meager means himself, he financially supported
Iron Trip and Zion Radio, loved to be interviewed on Iron Sharpens Zion Radio, and he is an example of someone who was a
Roman Catholic priest. And after nearly dying in an automobile accident in Trinidad, he came to Christ and eventually became a
Reformed Baptist evangelist and founded BereanBeacon .org,
and that still exists. BereanBeacon .org, so if you want to look that up, folks, that will have a wealth of information on how to evangelize your
Catholic family, friends, and loved ones. And that's being run today by some friends of mine who were also very close friends of Richard Bennett.
Now, I remember during your description of your salvation testimony, you said that you were for a time a member of a
Reformed Anglican church in South Africa. And was that where you discovered the doctrines of sovereign grace?
Not really. We never knew those words at all. I mean,
I was very young when I got converted, but it was a solid
Reformed church. Preaching was expository, biblical, and I was young.
I got immediately involved in the Sunday school and in youth work and started to really have a love for growing.
I think what was important in those days was really laying strong foundations, getting good discipleship when you're young and having a love for scripture, laying strong foundations in one's life.
And I certainly grew. My parents eventually left the
Anglican church because for some reason they thought it was too close to the Catholic church in terms of a belief system.
In particular, they differed on the understanding of baptism.
They differed. My father said he believed that the scripture was talking about believer's baptism.
And so he took the entire family out of that tradition. Although it was a very, very strong Reformed Anglican church, he wanted to get to a church that practiced believer's baptism.
And that's why at a very young age all of us eventually left and joined the Baptist church in our local area.
And was that Baptist church a sovereign grace -believing church? No, there were very few sovereign grace -believing churches in those days.
I mean, I only came to know the doctrines of grace when I went to seminary. Which one was that?
Nobody spoke that language. Cape Town Baptist Theological Seminary, that's where I did my undergraduate and my honors degrees.
By the way, there is a wonderful Reformed Anglican brother in South Africa that I've interviewed.
His name is Jake Griesel, and he is on the faculty of theology at George Whitfield College in Northwest University in South Africa.
I'm familiar with those colleges, yes. And perhaps one of these days, by God's providence, you two can meet because he's a wonderful brother.
Well, I'm going to give our listeners our e -mail address, chrisarnsen at gmail .com, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.
And if you have a question, please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the
USA, and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.
We're going to be going to our first commercial break right now, and when we return, we are going to be hearing more about the specific theme of our day today, and that is training of pastors in the doctrines of sovereign grace.
So don't go away. We are going to be right back right after these messages from our sponsors.
Oh, hail the power of Jesus' name.
This is Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.
Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially.
Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work of our
Lord Jesus Christ. And, of course, the end for which we strive is the glory of God.
If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe ten minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some
Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.
Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.
This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our
Sovereign Lord, God, Savior, and King, Jesus Christ, today and always.
Greetings. This is
Brian McLaughlin, President of the SecureComm Group and supporter of Chris Arnzen's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Program.
SecureComm provides the highest level of security systems for residential buildings, municipalities, churches, commercial properties, and much more.
We can be reached at securecommgroup .com.
That's securecommgroup .com. But today, I want to introduce you to my senior pastor,
Doug McMasters, of New High Park Baptist Church on Long Island. Doug McMasters here, former director of pastoral correspondence at Grace to You, the radio ministry of John MacArthur, and the film
Chariots of Fire, Olympic gold medalist runner Eric Liddell remarked that he felt God's pleasure when he ran.
He knew his efforts sprang from the gifts and calling of God. I sensed that same
God -given pleasure when ministering the Word and helping others gain a deeper knowledge and love for God.
That love starts with the wonderful news that the Lord Jesus Christ is a Savior who died for sinners and that God forgives all who come to Him in repentance, trusting solely in Christ to deliver them.
I would be delighted to have the honor and privilege of ministering to you if you live in the Long Island area or Queens or Brooklyn or the
Bronx in New York City. For details on New High Park Baptist Church, visit nhpbc .com.
That's nhpbc .com. You can also call us at 516 -352 -9672.
That's 516 -352 -9672. That's New High Park Baptist Church, a congregation in love with each other, passionate for Christ, committed to learning and being shaped by God's Word and delighting in the gospel of God's sovereign grace.
I'm Pastor Bill Shishko of The Haven, an Orthodox Presbyterian church in Comac, Long Island.
I hold the Iron Sharpens Iron radio program hosted by my longtime friend and brother
Chris Arnzen in the highest esteem, and I'm thrilled that you're listening today.
I'm also delighted that Iron Sharpens Iron is partnering with one of my favorite resources for Reformed Christian literature for decades now,
Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service. Well, with the economic nightmare that we're all currently enduring, cvbbs .com,
I want to enable you to build a wonderful personal library of the best literature that the
Reformers, the Puritans, and the great Christian minds of today have to offer and at affordable prices.
Not only does cvbbs .com offer up to 50 % off retail prices, but you'll get an added 5 % off orders of $50 or more by using promo code
IRON, I -R -O -N, an added 5 % off all of your orders of $50 or more from Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.
That's cvbbs .com, making the joy of reading the finest in Christian literature more affordable.
Oh, and make sure that you tell them you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron radio.
We here at Iron Sharpens Iron radio praise God for the generous monthly financial support of Royal Diadem Jewelers, educated by and affiliated with the
American Gem Society, Jewelers of America, and the Gemological Institute of America.
For the perfect custom -designed engagement ring or any one -of -a -kind piece of jewelry created exactly according to your imagination and specifications,
Royal Diadem Jewelers has you covered. No matter where you live in the world, Royal Diadem will walk you step -by -step through every stage of the process and even hold a high -tech internet virtual visit using state -of -the -art jewelry design technology to serve you.
They start by listening carefully to determine your needs. They're interested in making what you want, not what they want to sell you.
From rough design to digital model, to photorealistic image, to wax prototype model, to the finished product, they're continually listening to your input, likes and dislikes, making any changes necessary along the way.
This will ensure that your custom jewelry will turn out exactly as you dreamed and well beyond your expectations.
Visit royaldiadem .com. That's royaldiadem .com today.
Sterling Vanderwercker, owner of Royal Diadem Jewelers, his wife, Bronnie, his business partner and manager,
Brian Wilson, and the entire family, thank you all for listening to, praying for, and supporting the work of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
And don't forget, folks, on top of the monthly financial support that Royal Diadem already provides, they are still offering us this mind -blowing opportunity.
They are giving us 100 % of the profits from any sale of jewelry to an
Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener, simply by that listener mentioning Iron Sharpens Iron Radio when they purchase their jewelry at royaldiadem .com,
whether it is jewelry that they already have in stock at royaldiadem .com, or whether you're having a one -of -a -kind customized piece of jewelry created, like an engagement ring, or like taking your church logo, your parachurch ministry logo, your seminary logo, your denomination logo, your business logo, and turning it into a pendant for a necklace or a ring, or anything else your imagination and creativity can conjure up in your brain, they will take what's in your brain and turn it into a mind -blowing physical piece of jewelry.
And I have seen firsthand the mastery that they have over customizing jewelry.
So whether it's something they have in stock or a customized piece of jewelry, please, if you have any interest in purchasing jewelry for yourself or someone you love, go to royaldiadem .com
today, even if you're not making your final purchase today. Please go to royaldiadem .com
today to start the ball rolling on your purchase, because we don't know when they're going to pull the plug on this offer to us, where we get 100 % of the profits from any sale of jewelry to our listeners.
So go to royaldiadem .com today and mention Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We are now back with Paul Karstens, who is training pastors in the doctrines of sovereign grace in South Africa.
And if you have any questions, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence.
Well, Paul, I think it would be wise to start with when you are meeting with men who are either in the very beginning stages of entering into pastoral ministry, whether it's their seminary training or Bible school training, or if it's just something they believe they are receiving from God as far as the call to the pastoral ministry.
What are the things, the major things that are to be looked for, not only the person themselves when they are examining their own hearts and minds, but even someone such as yourself who's instructing them as to whether or not you believe the call is truly from God for them to enter the pastoral ministry, or whether it's just something that they may be infatuated with an idea of what being a pastor is all about.
They may like public speaking. They may like being the center of attention. They may just love the
Bible, and they love Christians, but they're not necessarily suited for a pastoral position.
So why don't you tell us about those things that you believe are primarily of concern when somebody is believing that they have been called by God to be a pastor?
Look, that's a difficult one, but I think I've always been of the opinion that you've got to build relationships with people before you make those decisions as to whether somebody's called.
I like the word you use, call to ministry, because that's the key, isn't it? It's the key to know that God has called you to ministry.
A lot of people could care less about a call to ministry, but I'm very, very keen to look for that.
And the way we do it is build relationships with them. It's not something that you can necessarily figure out immediately or in the short term, but get them into the classroom, and together we can figure that out with them.
Most of the people that we train have been in ministry for a longer time. And I would rather say that anybody who's going to stick it out in ministry for a long period of time, there's a stronger chance of them being called to ministry.
And the people that we train in the School for Biblical Church Leadership are older students, and they've been around for a long time.
And for most of them, I have a sense that there's a strong call to ministry because they keep on coming back for more.
And as we build relationships with them, they start to realize that it's not about the money, it's not about the position, but it's really about God's call to ministry.
And so that's a tough one. I mean, we can get it wrong sometimes, but I would rather them come, build relationships with them, and then we can figure that out over time.
Well, so are these men who are there predominantly or perhaps exclusively because, as you've already said, they have been in ministry a long time, is it because they are clearly aware that you specifically are a believer in the doctrines of sovereign grace, also known as Calvinism, also known as Reformed theology, and so on?
Are they aware of that, and they want to know more about it? Are they already seasoned
Calvinists themselves, and they just want to learn more about the art of preaching, homiletics and perhaps hermeneutics and so on, and shepherding and all that comes with it?
What's the typical thing, if there is such a thing, that you find amongst those men coming to you for training?
Chris, there's no typical person. They come from a variety of backgrounds, and the vast majority of them haven't got a clue what the doctrines of grace are all about.
And we want them to come. That's the important thing.
We want them to feel confident with us. We want them to trust us and so forth, that we are not fly -by -nighters, that we are here to build them up in the true faith.
You know, you use the words Reformed and Calvinism. We would prefer not to use those words in South Africa.
We have a bad history with those words. Dutch Reformed Church of South Africa? Correct, yeah.
I mean, I grew up in the apartheid system for most of my life, and those are not good words.
So we don't use Reformed, we don't use Calvinism. But that's what we mean.
So when we train, I like the word the doctrines of grace. It's not a term known by them, but it's really what we teach.
And eventually they start to understand where we are coming from and so forth. It's small beginnings.
Most of these people that we are training, they've got absolutely no
Bible training background. And sometimes they're in ministry for 20, 30 years.
Look, you need to understand that the apartheid left a lot of people untrained, and that's why we feel the burden to go to them.
The majority of our people that we are training are charismatic and Pentecostal from that background.
They love the Lord. They desire us for more training. We don't train Reformed people because it's like preaching to the converted.
And we prefer training pastors who have little or no theological background and get them to understand what
God's grace is all about. Yes, it's interesting that you said over there they don't use or don't like the terms
Reformed and Calvinist. In a similar fashion, I am acquainted with a brother.
I'm not sure if he's still pastoring there, but there was a really powerful, powerful preacher,
Amrash Simiroth, and I may be mispronouncing his name, but he was and perhaps still is the pastor of the
Reformed Evangelical Church in Trinidad.
The exact city is Tunapuna, Trinidad. And he and the believers of the doctrines of sovereign grace, a .k
.a. Reformed theology in Trinidad, do not typically use the word Baptist, even if they are
Baptist, because in Trinidad, many of the churches calling themselves
Baptist are involved in all kinds of false religious practices, are involved in animism, and really bizarre beliefs that are not even within the pale of Christianity.
So obviously they want to separate themselves. Even though they are
Baptist, and perhaps even Reformed Baptists, they don't use the word Baptist.
Right, right, yeah. I'm going to pull some wool over our eyes.
This sounds like that Calvinist heresy, and have any gotten up and left? No, no.
I mean, maybe a handful, but over the many, many years that we've trained them, there's always been an acceptance and a desire to learn more.
Chris, in many, many ways, and I've been talking to the American churches about this, Africans are very accepting of the word.
Now, that could be positive and negative. It could be a good thing or a bad thing.
The good thing is that they embrace us, and they're willing to grow. The bad thing is sometimes they get desperate, and then they embrace false teaching and so forth.
And so the sooner we get to them, the better. But there's more of an acceptance rather than a rejection of the truth of God's word and so forth.
So, very, very few people in our training have started with us and have left.
Most of the people, the lights go on at certain stages, and they realize they've been on some wrong trajectory and so forth, and they need to correct what they have wronged and so forth.
And we are here to facilitate and grow them and patiently do it.
You can't force people to change decades of sometimes false teaching.
But you've got to – it's all about building relationships with these men and getting them to trust you that this is actually – this is the truth.
This is the right way to go. This is what the Bible says. And you have to do this with proper biblical exegesis.
You can't do that sucking things out of your thumb or coming with some book that you've read or coming with some creed that you have.
Those things have a place. But what is that verse actually saying?
Or if you say that, where do you get that from? Show me where you're getting that from. And they will amen, oh, and say, but it's not there.
So we'll say to them, that's the issue, that's the problem. It's a lack of an understanding of the truth of the
Bible. It's the authority of Scripture you're pushing them back to. Where do you find this in the text?
Or if you're looking at the text, does the text say that or does the text say what you're saying?
So they will have to look back into the text, put their eyes on the verse, and then realize, oh, no, what have
I done? I've misread that verse in Scripture.
So that's it. It's the Bible engaging them, God commuting with them and wanting to change their hearts through His Word and so forth.
And we facilitate that because I think that's the right way to go. Rather than giving people what you want them to hear, you want them to engage from the text of Scripture and so forth.
And that's really what we are doing both at Cape Town Biblical College and specifically through the two schools that we have, the schools of biblical church leadership in Queenstown on the east coast of South Africa and in Kimberley in the northern
Cape province of our country. We can talk more about those two schools, specifically what they are and what we do there and who we are training and so forth.
Why don't you do that? Well, let me just say to you that I taught at a residential school.
I was a professor of theology for 22 years. And it was wonderful teaching in that environment.
But I started to think we're not getting the senior pastors and engaging them and training them in the teachings of God's Word.
So my burden was instead of waiting for them to come. Chris, the thing about it is this.
We've got 32 % unemployment in our country. And it's not economies and shambles.
And a lot of pastors that we train are bivocational. So they're working to put bread on the table and they're pastoring a church.
The churches do not often pay them what they deserve to get because they just can't because of poverty and so forth.
And so we want them to stay in their jobs. And then we also want them to stay in their families.
A lot of schools will say we will support the man to come, but you'll have to leave your wife and your children at home.
That's not healthy, that. I don't believe that. You must be correct. So we want them to stay in their families.
We want them to stay in their jobs. And also we want them to stay in their ministries because sometimes the problem is you'll have dozens of churches with no pastors.
And it is a problem. And so the ones that are pastoring churches, we want them to stay.
Sometimes they're pastoring more than one church. So here's the vision, here's the burden.
A group of us decided to sit down and work on a training program and a vision.
Instead of the church leaders coming to us in the colleges, the residential schools, in the cities, those of us that have been trained and have the experience, why don't we go to them?
Let them stay in their positions. And then all we ask them to do is to take a week off work and put in leave and then join us for some training, maybe three or four or five days, depending on what we're doing and how we set the program up.
So we go as a team and we go and train them. I also want to talk to you about a partnership that we have with the
TLI Training Leaders International out of Minneapolis. I believe in partnerships.
I believe in working together, sharing of resources and so forth. And TLI in Minneapolis has been a wonderful partnership for us from the time that we started.
Is that affiliated with the Gospel Fellowship Church of Sussex? No. Oh, that's interesting.
They're totally independent. Yeah. Oh, okay. And, yeah, well, feel free to continue giving us more details about that as well.
Sure. So let me just carry on. Okay. Let me talk to you about – so we decided to work with this organization in Minneapolis, you know,
Training Leaders International, and their burden is to go to a third world or majority world environment, much like what we're doing.
And they have a program or curriculum or training program that's geared for this exact pastor who's not able to get to a seminary or to a
Bible college and train them in biblical truth.
And so they come across at their own expense.
These lecturers, these professors of theology come and they partner with us and we team teach in the various schools.
And they have schools in many, many parts of the world and so forth. And we have a very, very healthy partnership.
So at the moment we have two schools, one amongst, you know, the Xhosa people in the
Eastern Cape in a place called Queenstown. The Xhosa people are the second biggest tribe in our country and very, very culturally, you know, driven and so forth, but tremendous needs, a desire to be trained.
The second school is the majority of the people who come in the
Kimberley training are from the tribe called the Tswana people.
That's T -S -A, the Tswana people. And these are two separate tribes in South Africa.
We have many, many tribes in South Africa, many, many cultures, like the
Zulu and the Ndebele and so forth, and the Venda. But the two that we are focusing on at present is, you know, is the
Xhosa people, that's X -H -O -S -A, and then the
Tswana people up in Kimberley and so forth. And Chris, maybe
I should say to you that when we sat down and prepared these courses, we came up with two words that I think drive what we do.
We wanted to make the courses integrated and it has to be accelerated because the majority of our students are slightly older, and we don't want them to be training just a year or two before the
Lord takes them. So we want to train them fairly quickly and focus on key areas.
So it's integrated. In other words, systematic theology, Bible doctrine is integrated in biblical exegesis.
So as we go through the scriptures and we come to a major, you know, systematic theology or Bible doctrine issue, and we're particularly focusing on the major ones, the important ones, like the doctrine of God, the doctrine of Christ, the doctrine of salvation, you know, and so forth.
And the other ones, we will, even the doctrine of the church, we'll do the doctrine of the
Holy Spirit. But there are ones that are fundamentally important, you know.
In fact, the course that we do, the very first course is the doctrine of God and scripture.
And we lay a foundation, you know, right there. Because if you don't understand who God is and you don't understand the importance of the
Bible, His book, nothing else is going to make sense. Yes, that's where it's all going to start.
Yeah, so that's where we start, yes. So it's integrated. And we choose various book samples of the various genres, the various types of literature.
We can't do everything in the space of three years because it's on a modular basis.
We'll go there for a week and then we don't go back for three months and then we give them homework to do, you know, preparation work, to prepare sermons and Bible studies and so forth that we evaluate and see how they're growing and so forth.
And then we come back again and we do a different genre. For example, we'll do
Genesis and Exodus, you know, it's one of the courses.
And then we'll go to the New Testament and we will do the Gospel of Mark. And then with the next course, we'll do an
Old Testament course and then a New Testament course. And so we get them to rightly divide the word of truth just by, you know, if they can understand, for example, the
Gospel, how to use and preach and teach from the Gospel of Mark, then I think it will be easier for them to do
Matthew, Luke and John if they understand how to use that, you know, type of literature, you know, the
Gospel and so forth. And the lights, Chris, have gone on. I must say for a lot of the, you know, these are, you know, a lot of these courses are indigenous.
English is their second language. And we go through it slowly, really slowly.
And we sometimes will use, you know, interpreters for students that don't understand
English as a first language. And so we have to go through it slowly, you know. And of course, the foundation of all of these things is the doctrines of grace.
All of it is we're building on to, you know, our understanding or the biblical understanding of the doctrines of grace and so forth, you know, by using
Scripture, by using the Bible, you know, to do that. In case there is anybody listening who is unfamiliar with the term the doctrines of grace, it would be highly unlikely that anybody in my audience would be unfamiliar with that.
But I was wondering if you agree with a very brief phrase that I used to use in the beginning opening announcements for a program
I created, a radio program I created back in the 1990s that aired on WMCA Radio in New York where I used to work.
There was a program I created that featured five different sovereign grace -believing pastors.
One hosted the program every night of the week. So in other words, five different men hosted their own night of the week,
Monday through Friday. And in the beginning of the program, when the title was announced,
The Voice of Sovereign Grace, the doctrines of grace were summarized like this, that God alone saves sinners because sinners cannot even help to save themselves.
Would you say that that is an accurate, very brief summary? I think that's accurate, yes.
I think that's what the doctrines of grace is all about and so forth, expressing the fact that grace alone comes from God, that we don't have any part of it except when
God gives us His grace so it comes from Him. And we have to go to our midway break right now.
Sorry to cut you short, but don't go away. We'll be right back. I'm Pastor Keith Allen of Lindbrook Baptist Church, a
Christ -centered, gospel -driven church looking to spread the gospel in the southwest portion of Long Island, New York, and play our role in fulfilling the
Great Commission, supporting and sending for the spread of the gospel to the ends of the earth. We're delighted to be a part of Chris Arnzen's Iron Sharpens Iron radio advertising family.
At Lindbrook Baptist Church, we believe the scriptures of the Old and New Testaments to be the inspired
Word of God, inherent in the original writings, complete as the revelation of God's will for salvation and the supreme and final authority in all matters to which they speak.
We believe in salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. This salvation is based upon the sovereign grace of God, was purchased by Christ on the cross, and is received through faith alone, apart from any human merit, works, or ritual.
Salvation in Christ also results in righteous living, good works, and appropriate respect and concern to all who bear
God's image. If you live near Lindbrook, Long Island, or if you're just passing through on the
Lord's Day, we'd love to have you come and join us in worship. For details, visit Lindbrookbaptist .org.
That's L -Y -N -Brookbaptist .org. This is Pastor Keith Allen of Lindbrook Baptist Church reminding you that by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves.
It is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast of the
Lord's blessing and the knowledge of himself. I'm Dr.
Joseph Piper, President Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary.
Every Christian who's serious about the Deformed Faith and the Westminster Standards should have and use the eight -volume commentary on the theology and ethics of the
Westminster Larger Catechism titled Authentic Christianity by Dr. Joseph Morecraft.
It is much more than an exposition of the Larger Catechism. It is a thoroughly researched work that utilizes biblical exegesis as well as historical and systematic theology.
Dr. Morecraft is Pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, and I urge everyone looking for a biblically faithful church in that area to visit that fine congregation.
For details on the eight -volume commentary, go to westminstercommentary .com, westminstercommentary .com.
For details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com,
heritagepresbyterianchurch .com. Please tell Dr. Morecraft and the saints at Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia that Dr.
Joseph Piper of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary sent you. Hello, my name is
Anthony Uvino, and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corum, New York, and also the host of the reformrookie .com
website. I want you to know that if you enjoy listening to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio show like I do, you can now find it on the
Apple's iTunes app by typing Iron Sharpens Iron Radio in the search bar. You no longer have to worry about missing a show or a special guest because you're in your car or still at work.
Just subscribe on the iTunes app and listen to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio show at any time, day or night.
Please be sure to also give it a good review and pass it along to anyone who would benefit from the teaching and the many solidly reformed guests that Chris Arnzen has on the show.
Truth is so hard to come by these days, so don't waste your time with fluff or fake news. Subscribe to the
Iron Sharpens Iron Radio podcast right now. And while you're at it, you can also sign up for the reformrookie .com
podcast and visit our website and the YouTube page. We are dedicated to teaching Christian theology from a
Reformed Baptist perspective to beginners in the faith as well as seasoned believers. From Keach's Catechism and the
Doctrines of Grace to the Olivet Discourse and the Book of Leviticus, the Reform Rookie podcast and YouTube channel is sure to have something to offer everyone seeking biblical truth.
And finally, if you're looking to worship in a Reformed church that holds to the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, please join us at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, New York.
Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Invinio, and thanks for listening. If you love
Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is by supporting our advertisers.
One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Arnzen is doing is
Daniel P. Buttafuoco, serious injury lawyer and Christian apologist.
Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society. Their mission?
To foster belief in the credibility of Scripture as the written Word of God. They go to various churches, schools, and institutions to publicly display a rare collection of biblical texts along with a fascinating presentation by Mr.
Buttafuoco demonstrating the reliability of Scripture. To advance the cause of the gospel, they created a beautiful, perfect facsimile of the genealogy of Jesus Christ from the original engravings contained in a first edition 1611
King James Bible. This 17th century hand -engraved chart shows the family tree of Jesus Christ going back to Adam and Eve.
This book is complete with gorgeous full -size illustrations of Noah's Ark and the
Tower of Babel and an explanation of why the genealogy of Jesus is so important for his claims to the throne of the universe.
Originals of this work are in museums and nobody has ever made it accessible to the public in a large book form before.
You can have your own copy of this 44 -page genealogy book for a donation of $35 or more.
Visit historicalbiblesociety .org That's historicalbiblesociety .org
Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Chris Arnzen here, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
I strongly recommend a church. I've been recommending as far back as the 1980s. Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.
Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshipped and how he shall be represented in the world.
They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship
God in spirit and truth. They endeavor to maintain a God -centered focus and to protect worship from the intrusion of carnal entertainments and distractions.
Reading, preaching, and hearing the Word of God, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, baptism, and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship performed with faith, joy, and sobriety.
Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at gcbc -nj .org
That's gcbc -nj .org Or call them at 908 -996 -7654
That's 908 -996 -7654
Tell Pastor Dunn you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the
New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the
Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the NASB.
I'm Pastor Nate Pickowitz of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmont and Ironworks, New Hampshire, and the
NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Rich Jensen of Hope Reform Baptist Church in Quorum, New York, and the
NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Sule Prince of Oakwood Wesleyan Church in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, and the
NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor John Samson of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona, and the
NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Chuck Volo of New Life Community Church in Kingsville, Maryland, and the
NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Steve Herford of Eastport Baptist Church in Jacksonville, Florida, and the
NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Roy Owens, Jr. of the
Church in Friendship in Hockley, Texas, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.
Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew
Bibles tattered and falling apart? Consider restocking your pews with the NASB, and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnson on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
Go to nasbible .com, that's nasbible .com, to place your order.
Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio has had a long -time partnership with our friends at CBBBS, which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.
They specialize in supplying Reformed and Puritan books and Bibles at discount prices that make them affordable for everyone.
CBBBS has been a family -owned book service since 1987, operating out of Carlisle, Pennsylvania.
They seek to bring you the best available Christian books and Bibles at the best possible prices, and now they're also shipping worldwide.
Browse the pages at ease, shop at your leisure, and purchase with confidence at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.
Order online worldwide at cvbbs .com, that's cvbbs .com,
or you can order by phone at 717 -249 -0231, that's 717 -249 -0231.
For orders of $50 or more, use promo code IRON for an extra 5 % off our already discounted prices.
And please, let our friends at CBBBS know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
Hello, I'm Phil Johnson, Executive Director of Grace to You with John MacArthur. I've been a frequent guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and I highly recommend this show.
But today I want to tell you about one of its advertisers, Rare Document Traders.
Far and away my favorite source for quality Charles Spurgeon memorabilia. Are you looking for that special, unique gift for your pastor or missionary friend or a loved one?
Why not purchase a piece of church history that any believer would cherish? Rare Document Traders is your one -step source for Spurgeon's handwritten manuscripts and letters, as well as other rare books and collectible items from church history.
In 15 years that they've been in business, they've earned a stellar reputation in the Reformed community with thousands of satisfied customers all around the world, including me.
Visit RareDocTraders .com today. That's RareDocTraders .com.
Don't forget to mention you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. That's RareDocTraders .com.
Puritan Reformed is a Bible -believing, kingdom -building, devil -fighting church. We're devoted to upholding the apostolic doctrine and practice preserved in Scripture alone.
Puritan Reformed teaches men to rule and lead as image -bearing prophets, priests, and kings.
We teach families to worship together as families. Puritan is committed to teaching the whole counsel of God so that the earth will be filled with the knowledge of God as the waters cover the sea.
We sing the Psalms, teach the law, proclaim the gospel, make disciples, maintain discipline, and exalt
Christ. This is Pastor David Reis of Puritan Reformed in Phoenix, Arizona.
Join us in the glorious cause of advancing Christ's crown and covenant over the kings of the earth.
Puritan Reformed Church. Believe. Build. Fight. PuritanPHX .com
Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said, Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read.
He who never quotes will never be quoted. He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.
You need to read. Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the
Prince of Preachers to heart. The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and future and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.
Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered, Christ -exalting books for all ages.
We invite you to go treasure hunting at Solid -Ground -Books .com That's Solid -Ground -Books .com
and see what priceless literary gems from the past to present you can unearth from Solid Ground.
Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And let me recommend a book available through Solid -Ground -Books .com
that is perfectly reflected in our discussion today, Foundations for the
Flock, Truths about the Church for All the Saints by my very dear longtime friend,
Dr. Conrad M. Bayway, who is the pastor of Kibwata Baptist Church in Lusaka, Zambia, Africa and is also the
Chancellor of African Christian University. So go to Solid -Ground -Books .com
to order that book and a multitude of other books that are available at that website,
Solid -Ground -Books .com Books that have been brought back into print, sometimes that have been lost for centuries and rediscovered by Solid -Ground -Books .com
and made available for the first time, some dating back to the 16th century
Protestant Reformation and extending through all the centuries of time through our current day, including such modern books that have been brought back, or should
I say brought into print for the very first time, books, for instance, by Dr. James R.
White of Alpha Omega Ministries. So go to Solid -Ground -Books .com today, purchase generously, and mention that you heard about them from Chris Orensen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
Before I return to my guest, Paul Carstens, and our discussion on training of pastors and the doctrines of sovereign grace in South Africa, I have some very important announcements to make.
Folks, if you really love this show and you don't want it to go off the air, I'm urging you, please go to IronSharpensIronRadio .com,
click Support, then click Click to Donate Now. You can donate instantly with a debit or credit card in that fashion.
If you prefer snail mail, sending a physical check to a physical address the old -fashioned way at your post office, there will also be a physical address that appears on your screen when you click
Support at IronSharpensIronRadio .com, where you can mail your checks made payable to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
If you want to advertise with us, if it's your church, your parachurch ministry, perhaps it's a business or a private professional practice like a law firm, a medical firm, or maybe it's just a special event, whatever it is, if it's compatible with what
I believe, I would love to help you launch an ad campaign as soon as possible because we're just as much in urgent need of your advertising dollars as we are in your donations.
So please send me an email to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line.
And folks, as desperately and as urgently as I need your financial support,
I never want anybody giving their own church where they're a member less money than you normally give your church on the
Lord's Day in order to bless us with a financial gift. Please never cut into the finances that you have set aside for your
Lord's Day giving to your own church in order to bless us. And if you're really struggling to survive and make ends meet, wait until you're back on your feet financially and more stable before you send us a gift.
The Bible is very clear that we are primarily to use the money with which the Lord has blessed us, which is still
God's money, keep in mind. We're primarily to use that to provide for church and family, and providing for my radio show is obviously not a command of God.
But if you do love the show and you are blessed financially above and beyond your ability to support church and family and you have extra money for benevolent, recreational, and even trivial purposes, and you love the show and you don't want it to go away, please share some of that money with us.
We really need your help. We are actually in the midst of this very serious financial crisis.
At least one of our major sponsors had to delay paying what he had intended to pay us actually in June.
He had to wait until August, and we are facing some very serious bills that need to be paid, including rent and other things.
So please, if you can help us, go to ironsharpensironradio .com, click support, then click to donate now.
Also, if you are not a member of a Christ -honoring, biblically faithful, doctrinally sound, theologically solid church like Grace Church at Franklin in Franklin, Tennessee, well,
I have extensive lists spanning the entire globe of biblically faithful churches, and I've helped many people all over the planet
Earth in our audience find churches that are biblically faithful, sometimes even within just a couple of minutes from where they live.
And that may be you too if you are without a church home that's biblically faithful. No matter where you live in the world, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail dot com chrisarnson at gmail dot com, and put
I need a church in the subject line. And that's also the email address where you can send in a question to Paul Carstens about training up men in pastoral ministry in the doctrines of sovereign grace.
That's chrisarnson at gmail dot com Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence.
And we have Jordy in Mount Juliet, Tennessee and Jordy wants to know what percentage of men who go through your pastoral training enter into the ministry where they left off as new believers in the doctrines of sovereign grace.
Chris, all of them, because all of them are currently serving in ministry and I think that's what she's asking, right?
I'm not sure if it's a she, it's Jordy, J -O -R -D -Y I'm sorry. It could be a woman,
I don't know. But what percentage of the men, since you said that they enter into your program totally oblivious and unaware of the doctrines of grace, so how many of them become through your training convinced of it and actually re -enter into their own pulpits perhaps for the first time as Bible believing
Calvinists? All of them. All of them do? Yes sir.
That's some track record. Yes. Well, when you discover something so marvelous as grace, what else do you have?
And once the lights come on for these pastors they don't want to turn back again.
But it does take time. It's a slow process. And you do want to continue mentoring them.
So it's not necessarily the training that we do, but the ongoing mentoring that's also important, you know, getting into specifics and so forth.
So all of them embrace the doctrines of grace and get back into their ministries.
And they will stay in their churches. The majority of them will stay in their churches and teach that.
Some of them get booted out of their churches, or some of them leave their churches because and will plant another church because they've embraced the truth of God's word.
Okay. We have Ray and I don't know how to pronounce this.
It's either Sabbatus or Sabbatus, Maine. And Ray said, you mentioned earlier about the
Dutch Reformed Church in South Africa being a denomination you do not want to be associated with in any way.
I know that the Dutch Reformed Church here in the United States has become largely liberal and is known as the
RCA today, the Reformed Church in America. But what is it that is so distasteful about the
Dutch Reformed Church of South Africa? The Dutch Reformed Church of South Africa, I mean, you know, when
I say I'm looking at the denomination, not at individual churches. By and large the Dutch Reformed Church were the supporters of the apartheid government.
And the clergymen in the church were supported by the state financially and they believed in separation and so forth.
It's not that we have a disdain for them. It's not like that. It's just that we prefer not to use the word reformed because it was associated with the denomination that supported the apartheid government.
And of course today the majority of them recognize the errors and the mistakes that they've made.
But the problem is it's too late to turn back right now. And so the vast majority of the people that we teach were anti the
Dutch Reformed and so we don't want to use those terms because by association it was a very, very negative situation.
Okay, we have Chuck in Vienna, West Virginia and Chuck wants to know, is this an interracial group of pastors that you train or are they predominantly black or are they predominantly white?
I'm not a racist in any way, shape, or form. I'm just very curious. In South Africa there are probably four major race groups.
There's the black African made up of various tribes and they are 79 % roughly of our population.
And there's another group called colored people. And colored people are a mixed race in South Africa.
And then there's the white people, the third. And then there are Asians that make up the minority group in our country.
The vast majority of the people that we train are the African and the colored people, the mixed race people in our country and these are the two most disadvantaged people's group in our country and so that's where our focus is.
We're not closed to white people coming to this. White people don't choose to come because because of where we're training.
It's in a rural black African environment and it's far removed from where white people live and so forth.
I mean, our doors are open. It's a non -racial training but we want to focus though on where the biggest needs are and the biggest needs are amongst the black
African tribes and amongst the colored people who largely live in the
Cape Town, you know, Metropole area and in Johannesburg and in some other big cities.
Okay. We have Baron in Cuttshaw, Long Island, New York who asks, what are the most typical major problems that men who are being trained in your institute have to overcome since you said they are already older men in the ministry?
I think it's change, you know, that saying, you know, can a leopard change its spots?
I think it's personal pride, you know, having taught a particular viewpoint for many, many years.
So it would be a theological hurdle, you're saying. Theological hurdles, yes.
They, you know, those are the biggest challenges and I think the second biggest challenge is often the lack of education.
They feel very much, you know, that they don't have sufficient education and understanding because of the apartheid system and of where they are.
And the third one is you know, language barriers.
We have language barriers and so a lot of them, you know, I have a lot of admiration for people whose first language is not
English. You know, they accommodate us and very often we are not accommodating of them.
We try but they have to try a lot harder to hear us and to try to understand us.
We do have interpreters on standby if major concepts are not understood and we really want them to embrace and to understand the big issues because, you know, time is of essence and so we'll slow down on those key and important areas of Christian doctrine and some of the key issues in the
Bible and so forth. So we'll slow down and because we want them to understand.
And also because if English is their sometimes second or third language or fourth language, we need them to hear and you know how it goes, if an interpreter often, you know, if I give a sentence that takes maybe thirty seconds an interpreter will take maybe two minutes to explain or give that same sentence, you know, to them because often there's not a word in their language and he's trying to get them to understand what we said in English.
But having said that, you said there was pride as one of the hurdles. If these men are already committing themselves to be trained by you, that does demonstrate some humility that they need to change something about what they're doing.
Yes, and I mean initially some of them, you don't see that but of course the more you come and the more you build relationships of trust, you know, with them and in some of these tribal environments it is, they're trusting you, you don't speak their language they think you're not hearing them and so build relationships, there are cultural differences and we have to start to trust each other and breaking down these barriers that are naturally there between language groups and cultural groups and so forth.
So build those relationships, spend time with them, have meals with them, talk to them at their level, don't talk down, you know,
I mean that's one of the great missions, principles, you know, treat them as equal partners, treat them as people who have been created in God's image, as important people, people that you love and are concerned about and people that you want to get to understand the clear, the plain teaching of God's Word.
Okay, we have Terrence in St. Remy, Canada and Terrence asks
I'm sorry to bring up the Dutch Reformed Church of South Africa again but you said that they supported apartheid but are they simultaneously also liberal or are they remaining true at least to the theology of the
Reformed faith? As far as I understand the vast majority of these churches have embraced a liberal not all of them it all depends on the local church and the local pastor.
I know of one pastor in a Dutch Reformed church in the area that I am in Cape Town who is a conservative evangelical and who preaches the gospel but even he will say my denomination has largely embraced a lot of liberal doctrines.
Some of the universities where these pastors are trained even question the authority of Scripture and when you start doing that you start on that downward spiral and so forth.
Largely the denomination is struggling theologically and has become largely liberal and as a result of that a lot of these churches have closed their doors and a lot of there's a lot of weakness in these churches.
It's become purely a religious group of people who are meeting there and so forth. And of course we need to reach them with the gospel as well.
Okay, we have Burke in San Leandro, California who asks can you explain a little bit more about the theological and religious climate of the area of South Africa in which you minister?
The South Africa is largely Christian roughly about 75 or 76 percent
Christian And when you say that do you mean nominally or you mean born again, robust, evangelical?
Well out of that I would say about 20 to 21, 22 percent of them are evangelical.
Genuinely evangelical not sometimes people say what kind of evangelical? We understand evangelical as being someone who loves
God, loves the word and the Bible is the authority and so forth. And so and then there's about 8 percent
Catholic 8 or 9 percent Catholic out of that 75 percent and about 38, the larger group is 38 percent
African independent church and they are your Zionist churches and a lot of black
Africans would be attracted to Zionism. Really? Yeah.
Why would that be? It's because probably because of apartheid they believe that standing together some forms of Christianity is very much a white man's religion and so a lot of them decided to stick together and formed their own form of Christianity which very often is you know is affected by some of their cultural and traditional beliefs and so forth.
There's a lot of culture in African independent churches. But they do things differently.
But it is it's interesting still that a black African would be drawn specifically to a identity with the state of Israel.
Is that the sense in which you're defining Zionism? Not really, no. Oh, how are you meaning it?
It's the Zionist church is an African traditional you know church where they will meet for example together in large communities and worship together.
For example of Easter, they would have one large Easter conference. So Zionism really is black
Africans you know sticking together and doing church following their particular brand and using their particular customs and so forth.
That is largely black and African. Oh, so it has nothing to do with dispensationalism or an alliance with the modern state of Israel?
No, absolutely not. I had never heard the word Zionist used in any other way so you're educating me here on that.
And would most if not all of these pastors that you're training be in Baptist churches or is it more of a variety?
It's a variety. The vast majority of our pastors both at Cape Town Biblical College and in School for Biblical Church Leadership in Kimberley and in Queenstown are mostly small independent
Pentecostal churches where the biggest lack of training has taken place for the last 70 -80 years in our country.
Baptists have their own theological training. Sometimes the Baptists come back to us because they haven't really been focusing on the doctrines of grace in their training and want to hear more of the doctrines of sovereign grace and so forth.
So they'll come and listen to us but the vast majority of our students are black pastors from independent churches, black independent churches,
Zionist churches, independent groups with a black
African flavor to the way they do their worship with all kinds of symbols and signs and dress codes and so forth.
We train them and some of the Pentecostal pastors from your more traditional
Pentecostal churches like AFM that's Apostolic Faith Mission and the
Assemblies of God and then your Full Gospel. Those are the three traditional Pentecostal groups that came to South Africa and so forth and we train a lot of them and then of course the more independent
Pentecostal groups and we find that look, you have to train people where the needs are,
Chris. It's very important that you understand that. And I mean these are people who love
God and who love His Word. They just need to be trained and they're confused about a whole lot of things.
Some of them are preaching in our pulpits, teaching our people and they're very, very shallow and most of them that come will admit to you
I don't have any Bible. They just made me the pastor and they really are desiring for more truth.
Yes and that's fascinating that you're saying all of the men depart from your training as believers in the doctrines of Sovereign Grace especially when some if not many of them are from the
Pentecostal backgrounds because that is very rare among those groups even though I know they exist.
I have personal friends who are in Pentecostal denominations even pastoring them that are strongly
Sovereign Grace believing men and one of which who is now in heaven. He was killed in an automobile accident.
Al Stein, a really precious brother. He not only was a pastor, he was a bishop on Long Island, an overseer of all the
Assembly of God churches on Long Island, New York where I'm originally from and he became a full -blown five -point
Calvinist and yet was able to remain in the Assemblies of God because the paper that pastors have to sign,
I believe it's every year, one of the things they have to reconfirm is that they do not believe in eternal security and he would get by that by putting in that section,
I believe in evidential security meaning that if you are truly born again you're going to give evidence of that with a repentant life and they accepted that because many people who reject the idea of what we call the perseverance and preservation of the saints which is commonly called eternal security by others they reject that because they have an incorrect notion of what we believe they believe that means you are teaching you can live like Satan unrepentantly for the entirety of your life and go to heaven and obviously we don't believe that because we don't believe a true child of God would live that way unrepentantly but have you heard stories about how men have returned to their
Pentecostal churches and other churches and perhaps even been kicked out because of the doctrines of grace? Oh yes
I have and you know look the vast majority of the people we train are senior pastors with clout in the churches and they're able to bring the changes you know that's necessary from the top there have been occasions where pastors have been kicked out of their churches because they've embraced the doctrines of grace but very very few of them the churches in fact enjoy listening to their pastors who have embraced the truth of God's word it's refreshing for them.
Chris I preach in many many Pentecostal churches they ask me to come and preach in their churches and do conferences and so forth and they trust and they know what
I stand for they know what we stand for you know in South Africa and they open up their pulpits they open up their churches to us to teach them you know the doctrines of grace and to preach in their churches using the particular way that we do it and so forth and they love the freshness of the word and the pastors love it and the churches are loving their pastors who have changed and embraced you know a lot of them will say now at least we're getting what the bible says not what he believes you know.
Amen. In fact our mutual friend Bill Sasser pastor of Grace Church at Franklin in Franklin Tennessee we both know a brother
Ron McKinney whose dad was an assembly of God pastor years ago and he came to the doctrines of sovereign grace and he was kicked out of the church.
In fact I remember hearing a recording of his farewell sermon the very last sermon he preached at the church that he was being removed from because he became a believer in the sovereignty of God but Chris could
I just say something? Oh yeah sure go ahead. Could I just say that you know some of the pastors you know we encourage them to stay in their churches.
They will come to us and say you know we're feeling a lot of the pressure do you think it's the time to leave and we say don't leave you know you have to go back to your church and bring the necessary changes as long as they want you to stay and as long as they respect what you're saying you stay there.
If it becomes too much then maybe you have to plant another church and a lot of them will plant a church and the church sometimes is a different brand of Pentecostalism they hold on to Pentecostalism but it's a different brand of Pentecostalism now you know it's biblical it's the truth that's being preached now they'll still hold on to some of the things that make them
Pentecostal you know like worship the way they worship and so forth which there's no issue with that you know we can live with those type of things but the key is that they are preaching the
Bible doing biblical exegesis and telling their congregations what the
Bible is saying and that's what we want them to do let's see we have
Brando just like Marlon Brando in Buffalo New York Brando said
I have heard the man that Chris Ornson just mentioned earlier
Dr. Conrad Mbewe on Chris's show and he has mentioned that in Zambia amongst the
Pentecostals and Charismatics it is very common for a lot of superstition and pagan elements to be incorporated into the
Pentecostal worship and practice where they are barely distinguishable from witch doctors have you experienced this?
No not in the group that we train but certainly they are there the people that we train are more conservative conservative
Pentecostals and they are not from the radical Pentecostalism that we know are out there
I don't think they will enjoy and last very very long in our training we have to go to our final break right now and if you have a question send it in immediately because we are rapidly running out of time
Chris Ornson at gmail .com Chris Ornson at gmail .com give us your first name at least city and state and country of residence don't go away we will be right back
James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here if you have watched my dividing line webcast often enough you know
I have a great love for getting Bibles and other documents vital to my ministry rebound to preserve and ensure their longevity and besides that they feel so good
I'm so delighted I discovered Post Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding no radio ad will be long enough to sing their praises sufficiently but I'll give it a shot
Jeffrey Rice of Post Tenebrous Lux is a remarkably gifted craftsman and artisan all his work is done by hand from the cutting to the pleating of corners to the perimeter stitching
Jeffrey uses the finest and buttery soft imported leathers in a wide variety of gorgeous colors like the turquoise goat skin tanned in Italy used for my
Nestle All in 28th edition with a navy blue goat skin inside liner and the electric blue goat skin from a
French tannery used to rebind a Reformation Study Bible I used as a gift the silver gilding he added on the page edges has a stunning mirror finish resembling highly polished chrome.
Jeffrey will customize your rebinding to your specifications and even emboss your logo into the leather making whatever he rebinds a one of a kind work of art for more details on Post Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding go to PTLBibleRebinding .com
PTLBibleRebinding .com PTLBibleRebinding .com Hi this is John Sampson pastor of Kings Church in Peoria, Arizona taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the
Iron Sharpens Iron podcast I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity he's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the
Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray.
I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide this is a day of great spiritual compromise and yet God has raised
Chris up for just such a time and knowing this it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.
I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting
Iron Sharpens Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?
I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com
where you can click support that's ironsharpensironradio .com ironsharpensironradio .com
ironsharpensironradio .com ironsharpensironradio .com ironsharpensironradio .com ironsharpensironradio .com ironsharpensironradio .com
ironsharpensironradio .com ironsharpensironradio .com
Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the
NASB. I'm Dr. Joe Moorcraft, pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church in Cumming, Georgia, and the
NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Anthony Uvino, founder of TheReformRookie .com
and co -founder of New York Apologetics, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.
I'm Pastor Tim Bushong of Syracuse Baptist Church in Syracuse, Indiana, and the NASB is my
Bible of choice. I'm Eli Ayala, founder of Revealed Apologetics and staff member with the
Historical Bible Society, and the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Josh Miller of Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, and the
NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Joe Bianchi, president of Calvi Press Publishing in Greenville, South Carolina, and the
NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Jake Korn of Switzerland Community Church in Switzerland, Florida, and the
NASB is my Bible of choice. Here's a great way for your church to help keep
Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew Bibles tattered and falling apart?
Consider restocking your pews with the NASB, and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
Go to nasbible .com, that's nasbible .com to place your order.
I'm Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
Brian McLaughlin, president of the SecureComm Group and supporter of Chris Arnzen's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio program.
We can be reached at securecommgroup .com. That's securecommgroup .com.
But today, I want to introduce you to my senior pastor, Doug McMasters of New High Park Baptist Church on Long Island.
Doug McMasters here, former director of pastoral correspondence at Grace to You, the radio ministry of John MacArthur.
In the film, Chariots of Fire, the Olympic gold medalist runner Eric Liddell remarked that he felt
God's pleasure when he ran, and his efforts sprang from the gifts and calling of God.
I sensed that same God -given pleasure when ministering the word and helping others gain a deeper knowledge and love for God.
That love starts with the wonderful news that the Lord Jesus Christ is a savior who died for sinners, and that God forgives all who come to Him in repentance, trusting solely in Christ to deliver them.
I would be delighted to have the honor and privilege of ministering to you if you live in the Long Island area, or Queens, or Brooklyn, or the
Bronx, in New York City. For details on New High Park Baptist Church, visit nhpbc .com.
That's 516 -352 -9672. That's New High Park Baptist Church, a congregation in love with each other, passionate for Christ, committed to learning and being shaped by God's word, and delighting in the gospel of God's sovereign grace.
Chris Arnzen here. I am forever grateful to Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service for their generous financial support of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
But that's not the only reason I love them. CVBBS .com carries the finest in theologically reformed literature from 16th century classics like Calvin's Institutes, 17th and 18th century
Puritan treasures like the works of Jonathan Edwards, 19th century volumes by the
Prince of Preachers Charles Spurgeon, all the way up to the 21st century with the best of R .C.
Sproul, Steve Lawson, Votie Baucom and more. On top of their stellar book selection,
CVBBS .com offers up to 50 % off retail prices with an added 5 % off for orders of $50 or more when using the promo code
IRON. Visit CVBBS .com today and use promo code
IRON. That's CVBBS .com, enriching minds and maintaining the theologically reformed influence of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio through their financial support.
Now shipping worldwide. It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners from all over the world.
Here's Joe Riley, a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed,
Dr. Joe Moorcraft. I'm Joe Riley, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener here in Atai in County Kildare, Ireland.
Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is
Dr. Joe Moorcraft. If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr. Moorcraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia are largely to thank, since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters.
Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area.
Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards, and Dr.
Joe Moorcraft is the author of an eight -volume commentary on the larger catechism. Heritage is a member of the
Hanover Presbyterian Church, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone, and tracing its roots and heritage back to the great
Protestant Reformation of the 16th century. Heritage maintains and follows the biblical truth and principles proclaimed by the reformers, scripture alone, grace alone, faith alone,
Christ alone, and God's glory alone. Their primary goal is the worship of the triune God that continues in eternity.
For more details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com.
That's heritagepresbyteriantchurch .com, or call 678 -954 -7831.
That's 678 -954 -7831. If you visit, tell them
Joe Roiligan, Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener, from Matti, in County Kildare, Ireland, sends you.
And speaking of Dr. Joe Moorcraft, I just received an email from a listener,
I'm not sure where he is from, but his name is John Jay. And he says,
Hi, Chris, I appreciate your interviews with Dr. Joe Moorcraft, a true gem of a pastor and minister of truth.
Having now gotten from page one of the Old Testament up through the first few chapters of Isaiah, I believe when
God created Dr. Joe, he must have taken the best parts of Moses, David, Solomon, and Isaiah to come up with this gem of a man.
I enjoy all your guests, but especially look forward to another session with Dr. Joe. As a newbie,
I'm assuming he means a new Christian, I learn from every one of your guests, great work you are doing.
Thanks again, John Jay. Well, thanks a lot, John, and its listeners like you that encourage me to keep, continue hosting
Iron Sharpens Iron radio. And I really thank you for that word of encouragement.
And I will pass on your email to Dr. Joe Moorcraft. And I also want to remind our listeners that this program is paid for in part by the law firm of Buttafuoco and Associates.
If you are the victim of a serious personal injury or medical malpractice anywhere in the
United States, please call 1 -800 -NOW -HURT, 1 -800 -NOW -HURT, or visit their website, 1 -800 -NOW -HURT .com,
1 -800 -NOW -HURT .com, and make sure you tell Daniel P.
Buttafuoco, attorney at law, that you heard about the law firm of Buttafuoco and Associates from Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron radio.
And also, I want to remind all men in ministry leadership, if you are a man in ministry leadership and you would like to attend my next free biannual
Iron Sharpens Iron radio pastor's luncheon on Thursday, October 10th, 11 a .m. to 2 p .m.,
featuring for the very first time Dr. Joe Boot, founder and president of the
Ezra Institute. He's flying out from England here to Pennsylvania to be the keynote speaker of my pastor's luncheon on Thursday, October 10th, 11 a .m.
to 2 p .m., at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania. Not only is your admission free and your lunch free, but every man attending will receive a heavy sack of free brand new books, personally selected by me and donated by generous
Christian publishers all over the United States and United Kingdom. So, if you could get to Perry County, Pennsylvania, Loisville, Pennsylvania, Church of the
Living Christ on Thursday, October 10th, 11 a .m. to 2 p .m., please try to attend.
If you're a man in ministry leadership, send me an email to chrisarnzen at gmail dot com, chrisarnzen at gmail dot com, and put pastor's luncheon in the subject line.
Well, before I go to any listener question, brother, I want to make sure that you have said the most important things that you want our listeners to know before we go off the air.
Chris, I think we've covered. Thank you very much for asking. I think we covered most of the of the areas.
Just to quickly summarize, you know, we're training pastors who are mostly in ministry.
We also train women because, you know, in African culture, women play a very important role in the culture of the community and so forth.
You know, we make it very, very clear. We're not training them for pastoral ministry or for leadership in the church, but certainly they also need to know
God's word in order to raise the children and the community.
And they certainly play an important role in the in the in the furtherance of the gospel.
In fact, I want to thank you for that clarification, because I just heard thousands of people sighing with relief.
But I'm sorry I interrupted you. Go ahead. Continue. Well, and basically, you know, we involved, you know, we novices of this.
We've already started the process of of going out to the pastors instead of them coming to, you know, to the to the traditional
Bible colleges. We need prayer. We have a desire to grow the ministry.
We started with two sites, one in Queenstown, one in Kimberley. There's been a call for more, you know, training in different sites.
But, of course, all of this requires infrastructure, finances and more trainers.
And the school in Cape Town, the biblical college in Cape Town, we do a similar thing, but we're doing that during the evening in the area.
Of course, we all live in Cape Town and so forth. So we did a lot of prayer for the furtherance of this kind of ministry.
The School for Biblical Church Leadership. We need prayer for safety where we go into these areas and for wisdom and patience as we grow
God's people in a very, very different and often dangerous, you know, cultural environment.
And so we need prayer. And I think these men and women are asking for prayer that God will change their hearts and so that they will embrace the great doctrines of grace.
Okay. We've got time for one more quick question from a listener. Jax in Murfreesboro, Tennessee, wants to know, do you provide this training online for people who live in other parts of the world outside of South Africa?
We don't. Thank you for that question. We are primarily offering the training to people in our own culture in South Africa where the needs are.
And we do not offer it online because the vast majority of our people, you know, prefer to be in your face.
I always say to people that ask me, you know, do they prefer, you know, what do they prefer?
Well, they prefer to touch you. They prefer to be in your presence. We must have a meal together. We must talk together.
That's the kind of training, distance learning, online training. Preferably don't go that route with the people that we are training and so forth.
And so, no, we don't offer it anywhere else outside of our context. Well, I want to make sure our listeners have your websites again.
First of all, ctbiblical .co .za.
That stands for Cape Town Biblical. ctbiblical .co .za.
You can find out more information about Cape Town Biblical College at that site. Also, don't forget that this
Sunday my guest will be preaching at Beaver Baptist Church in Beaver, Pennsylvania.
That website is beaverbaptist .org, beaverbaptist .org.
And then he will fly out to Milwaukee, Wisconsin.
And the following Sunday we'll be preaching at Gospel Fellowship of Sussex in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.
And that website is gospelfellowshipofsussex .com, gospelfellowshipofsussex .com.
I want to thank you, dear brother Paul, for being such a superb guest. I enjoyed every second of our interview.
I look forward to you returning to this program for future interviews. I want to thank everybody who listened to the program, especially all those who took the time to write.
And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.