The Socinian Catechism

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Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry sitting next to me. How long have we known each other?

About 10 minutes. That Dunkin Donuts, you said, �Can I buy you a cruller ?�

And I said, �I would love that. Thank you, bro.� Yeah, but now with my dietary restrictions, you know how hard it is to travel someplace like to Ohio and then

I have to be gluten -free, I have to be dairy -free. For a while, I was meat -free, but...

To answer your question though, 27 years. Okay, that�s good. And I think you�ve had more dietary issues over 27 than I have.

What are you talking about? But I�ve got more now than you, I think. Oh, yeah. Well, probably. So I�m getting,

I�m feeling better. Figured out this whole gluten -free thing. You can buy gluten -free about anything.

Pizza crust, you can get gluten -free. And it�s yummy. If you put enough cheese on it, but I can�t have the cheese.

So today we�re going to talk about, excuse me, that just sometimes I cough, catechisms.

What do you like about catechisms? What are catechisms? Well, catechisms have nothing to do with felines, first of all.

I think we have to say that. Okay. They�re questions and answers, and they�re designed to help us remind ourselves of theological truths.

So, you know, basic questions, involved answers, which help remind us of biblical principles.

Would it be fair to say that they�re good mnemonic devices? How do you say that? Mnemonic. Yes, they often are, yes.

Okay. And what are some of your, excuse me, favorite catechisms? Well, the Heidelberg Catechism.

I mean, I like the shorter catechism, so. Westminster�s? Yeah. Okay. And would you be surprised to find out that, let�s say

Arius thought, the way I can make everybody deny the deity of Jesus would be through songs. Let�s have little jingles.

To all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun. No, because music is very powerful.

I mean, it�s amazingly powerful. I could give story after story about that, but I won�t for the sake of time. Okay. So today, we have something called a

Sosinian Catechism. Now, we�re gonna describe what a Sosinian is in a moment, but this is written by John Owen, the famous John Owen, the great theologian in the 1600s in England, who was

Cromwell�s chaplain for a while, I believe, and also a Congregationalist who pretty much wrote the

Savoy Confession. And he has some little satire involved in the Sosinian Catechism.

Can you do satire as a Christian, as a pastor? It�s called Twitter. Sarcasm. Well, wait a minute.

Twitter didn�t even exist then. Isn�t this just un� this is just not very nice of John Owen.

Here�s what the Merriam -Webster Dictionary says of Sosinian, an adherent of the 16th and 17th century theological movement, professing belief in God and adherence to the

Christian scriptures. So far, so good. Oh, excellent. But denying the divinity of Christ and consequently denying the

Trinity. Not so good. Not so good. It was off to such a fine start.

I think it was a Polish guy and his nephew. We�ll just call them

Sosinius to make it easier than the Polish names. Sosinius and Sosinius II.

Trey. Or what do you call the second? Oh, yeah, the second. Yeah, you�re right. So what we�re going to do is we�re going to read the

Satirical Catechism and then we�ll talk about it. How�s that sound? Okay. Okay. Here�s a way to remember that Jesus isn�t

God. That�s essentially what they�re after, and of course, we�re against that. Question one, what is God? Answer, God is a spirit that hath a bodily shape, eyes, ears, hands, feet, like to us.

So far, so bad. And you know what? I hate to relate everything to Mormonism, but this is

Mormon, right? They�d say that God was a man just like us.

And they take all the Old Testament indicators, you know, he has an arm, he sees, he hears, he does all these things.

And they go, well, therefore, God is just an exalted man. He�s just a man made perfect.

He existed as us, you know, once upon a time in a different planet. And now look at him.

Look at how he�s grown. Look at how he�s done for himself. You know, the boy done good. Do you know,

I was in Ohio last week and a guy came up to me with his phone to show me something, and it was that old band

Mormon cartoon. Like, that was rando. Completely rando.

Steve, is it fair to say God is a spirit? John 4, 24. Right. And it is also fair to say this is dealing with God in his nature ontologically, and it doesn�t have anything to do with the incarnation, because obviously, the second person of the

Trinity, the Eternal Son, takes upon himself human flesh and then has eyes and ears, etc.

There�s another nature involved. Right. And often the reason anthropological words are used is to help us understand things like his omnipresence and his omnipotence.

You know, I mean, how would we understand all -powerful? I mean, they could just say that over and over and over again, or they could talk about his mighty right arm or his mighty hand or, you know, this kind of, was he not delivered by his, or were you not delivered by his mighty hand?

You know, this kind of language so that we just understand God is all -powerful. It doesn�t mean he has a hand.

It doesn�t mean he has an arm. You know, it doesn�t mean he, you know, it doesn�t mean any of those things.

It�s just to help us, you know, to accommodate our frailties and to help us understand a little bit better the power and the presence of God.

Excellent point. His eyes are on the wicked or whatever the phrase is.

It�s not to teach us that God has eyes, but that God sees everything. Right.

He knows everything, right? How are we going to understand God unless he reveals himself through scripture at a level that we can understand?

Calvin would call it baby talk. This is kind of God just trying to make it as simple as possible because how can we, the finite, understand the creator?

There is a creator -creature distinction. One of the things that we�re going to notice on this list, dear listener, is what cults love to do is they love to take the

Bible uber -literally. Always. Because it helps them develop their false teaching.

Okay. You wanna do number two? Okay, number two. Where is this God? Answer, in a certain place in heaven upon a throne where a man may see from his right hand to his left.

Interesting. I�m sure John Owen is leading us to certain places that we don�t wanna go to expose how bad this is.

Sometimes I think Christians, when they hear that Jesus is at the right hand of the Father, seated at the right hand of the

Father, I think they think maybe literal throne somehow, maybe a couple of orbs and then

Jesus with the glorified incarnate body sitting there. It doesn�t take very long for you to say, hmm,

I think something else is going on here. Right hand, a place of honor, esteem, privilege, power, authority, seated.

Oh, the priest never sat down in the temple or tabernacle because their work was never finished.

Jesus, it is finished. He sits down. He never has to do anything again. Shouldn�t we be thinking that way instead?

Yes. But he�s appropriated a lot of different language, whether it�s

Ephesians 1 or different places, and just kind of put it all together so we would picture in our minds like what you were saying, but I think it even goes further because ultimately, just reading what he says there, we would tend to think, accepting the idea that Jesus is on his throne, well then, who�s on the throne right next to Jesus?

Jesus left. It�s the Father. You can kind of tell that�s where he�s gonna try to take us.

Yeah. And so, you know, we wind up with tritheism, Patrick, you know, and all kinds of issues.

Or Jesus as the created being, right? Yes. He�s not eternal. He�s up there.

Right. Right. He�s up there, but he�s not eternal. Yeah. He�s the best man who ever lived, contra his own words, where John the

Baptist was the greatest ever. Hebrews chapter 1 talks about Jesus creating, sustaining, etc.

Question number three, Doth he ever move out of that place? Answer, I cannot tell what he doth ordinarily, but he hath formerly come down sometimes upon the earth.

That is so funny. Yeah, and I don�t know what he�s doing all the time, but sometimes, you know, he visits.

I mean, sometimes he was, you know, he came down and he visited in different times and places, but he doesn�t visit anymore.

This has not much to do with this topic except general Trinitarian thinking. It is fascinating,

Steve, to just ponder for a moment, okay, Jesus is in heaven in a glorified body, his divine nature, omnipresent, right?

So you have two natures. Divine nature, well, he has to be omnipresent. He�s God. Human nature, in heaven.

Mind just starts blowing. What are some of those characters on TV where they have the steam coming out of their ears?

I don�t know. I don�t watch those shows. I think that�s like the Three Stooges. Oh, the

Three Stooges. For most of us, we don�t tend to watch those things anymore.

But it is kind of, well, it certainly is mind blowing. But I think the other thing, you know, just looking at his answer to number three, it would also lead to the idea that maybe in the

Old Testament, all the theophanies are God the

Father, right? Because he has a body, so why can�t it be him? It certainly wouldn�t be

Jesus, right? Walking through the garden. Yeah. Right. Nope, that�s the

Father. The Father does the walking. Right. Did you know no one walks in LA?

Nobody walks in LA. I�ve heard that. I�ve heard that. Okay, is it my turn or your turn? I think it�s my turn.

Okay, go ahead. All right. Number four, what doth he do there in that place?

That sounds like Jed Clampett. What did he do there? What doth he do there? Where is you at?

Yeah. Answer. Among other things, he conjectures at what men will do here below.

As he scratches his chin, right? What will they do next? I think

I remember, speaking of shows and pop culture references and stuff like that, there�s a story. I think it�s a fictional story about a scientist, and he created a person, a monster, and he couldn�t control that monster.

Huh. Never heard of that one. Frankenstein, who makes something and you can�t control those people or know what they�re going to do?

Well, certainly not God, but in this picture, it really sounds to me like kind of the gods on Mount Olympus, quizzical concerning mankind, but not having any authority, certainly no control, just kind of, �Oh, these humans are quite fascinating.�

That�s all he does is sit there and ponder and think. The great thinker, Rodan. What�s his name?

Rodan the Thinker? Yeah. And he�s not upholding, he�s not sustaining, he�s not doing any of that.

He just thinks he�s a thinker. Trying to anticipate, trying to stay one step ahead of those wily humans.

Mike Ebenroth with Steve Cooley, Socinian Catechism. How can you teach people things about God that aren�t true?

Written by John, let�s call him John the Owen. Have you been to the Bunheal Fields Cemetery where John Owen, the dissenter, was buried?

I don�t believe so, no. Okay. They have a little cemetery, Bunheal Fields, and if you did not want the

Book of Common Prayer to be used at your funeral, you couldn�t get married in a regular church cemetery.

So there was a little place in London called Dissenters. Thomas Goodwin was there, John Owen, Pilgrim�s Progress writer

John Bunyan, and others were there. It seems like quite an honor to be buried there. How would you like to be there when the dead in Christ shall rise first?

That would be fun. That would be fun. Okay, question number five. Doth he, then, not know what we do?

He doth know what we have done, but not what we will do. See, this is open theism before open theism was even a thing, right?

I mean, he�s mocking it hundreds of years ahead of time. Well, if God doesn�t know, if God knows everything, that makes us kind of robots and stuff now, doesn�t it?

That takes away this love relationship. No, it only takes away the love relationship if you imagine love to be some romantic sentiment.

If, on the other hand, you understand God�s love as being fixed upon the objects of his love, right, of his choice, really, we could say, then you would never say such a thing.

Well, Steve, when I�m thinking big picture about this catechism, we know the

Sosinians denied the deity of Christ. So if Jesus isn�t God, then what happens?

What�s the world about? How do we think theologically? How can you have a high priest that sympathizes with our weaknesses and is yet without sin?

Everything�s driving to the Father because the deity of Jesus is out the window, so really, who cares about him?

Let�s think about the Father. I think the bigger problem, and you alluded to it earlier, the bigger problem is if he�s not

God, then how does he die for our sins? Because how is his death enough to pay the price for every sin ever committed?

And the answer is, if he�s just a man, then it�s not enough. It can�t be enough.

Furthermore, we would really have to marvel at the idea that Jesus said he would raise himself from the grave, and then he did, and yet he was just a man.

How did he do that? He was a wackadoodle when he said, you know, destroy this temple and I�ll raise it in three days.

Yeah, that was insane. So, I mean, the whole Sosinian theology goes against the

Scripture step by step by step by step. But, you know, again, I think the bigger problem is, you know, if he�s not

God, then I don�t know why we would trust in him. It would make no sense whatsoever.

Steve, do you think it�s possible that people that deny the deity of Jesus, do you think that�s the next step for people that say, you know what, in our circles these days,

Jesus, yes, he�s God, but he�s eternally submitting to the Father?

Don�t you think that�s a slippery slope to something like this in a generation or two or three?

I think the next step would be that he probably became God, right?

That he was just like us, and then he got some kind of promotions and we�re along the line. I mean, because that would be less of a step than just saying he�s not

God whatsoever, right? Yeah, right. So, a gradual declension of who

God would be. And, you know, if Jesus isn�t the eternal Son, then there�s got to be three wills in the

Godhead, right? The Father is supreme, he�s always in charge because he�s the Father, and the

Son is, well, you know what, he�s not so eternal or whatever, but you have three wills because the

Father has to tell the Son what to do and the Son has to go do it. Yeah, there�s a hierarchy, you know, and also the

Son would tell the Spirit what to do and the Spirit has to do it, so it�s like one, two, three, first, second, third.

Would it not be then against Philippians chapter 2 where he humbled himself and became obedient to death, even death on a cross?

It shouldn�t say he humbled himself. It should have said to continue his humiliation, sorry, his humbling in eternity past because he was having to humble himself before the

Father because the Father�s in charge. He continued to humble himself and became obedient. He continued, yeah.

Yeah, it was an arc, you know, that began in eternity past. Yeah, which, you know, to be clear, that is false.

That is wrong. There was no, there weren�t three separate wills. We have to,

I mean, I was just listening to this yesterday. We had to separate the idea from will being a matter of personality, right?

And it�s a matter of nature. So, by their nature, they have one will.

And that�s really why we�re talking about the Socinian Catechism today, because of the eternal functional subordination issues that are swirling around evangelicalism.

Steve, in addition, I say to myself, all right, why did Jesus die? Why did he live, die, be buried, raised, ascended, et cetera?

And the Reformers especially would highlight that he did it for us because that�s the scripture talks about.

He died for us, on our behalf, in our stead, in our place.

He was already righteous inherently, so when he obeyed the law, he obeyed for us, right, meriting righteousness for us to give to us in justification credited by God himself, all his right doing he did for us.

But in the eternal functional subordination group, it seems to me at least, that he�s obeying,

Jesus is obeying for himself because he�s the son, the eternally submitting son, eternally subordinate son, and this is just one more thing he has to go obey for us,

I mean, for himself. Yeah. I�m not sure that they would, they certainly wouldn�t say that, right?

I mean, or they might say that that�s a part of it. They wouldn�t say that. Do you think they�d say that that�s the whole reason?

No, I�m just trying to work through, okay, ideas have consequences, and so isn�t this a consequence?

But certainly the humbling thing, he humbled himself. I don�t really think it was that, maybe they�ll say the incarnation in itself was humbling.

Yeah. And I think they come to some horrible conclusions about Psalm 2, you know, as well. You know, �Today

I have begotten thee for getting the creeds that say eternally begotten.�

Well, right, and even the ultimate, you know, crowning of the begotten son is in the resurrection in Acts chapter 13.

I don�t think it�s talking about the incarnation there. So, Sinian Catechism, Sarcastic John Owen, question six?

Yes. What frame is he upon his knowledge and conjecture? Answer, sometimes he�s afraid, sometimes grieved, sometimes joyful, and sometimes troubled.

Oh, this is fascinating, because this is, you know, when we use Westminster Confession, no parts or passions, right?

This is anti -simplicity of God. What do we know about God as simple? He�s just a simpleton?

Or what does that mean, simplicity? I just go back to Psalm 2 when it says, �Sometimes he is afraid.� Our God sits on the throne and laughs.

I mean, he�s looking at everything that�s going on, and he just laughs because this is, you know, all the power of the world, and all their machinations ultimately mean nothing.

What if God did have true emotions where some people on earth seem to be obeying, he�s happy, other people disobeying, he�s not happy, and he just keeps fluctuating back and forth and back and forth.

But if God doesn�t have emotions like we have emotions, then does that make him not care?

He�s just too distant. He�s a stoic God. He�s a John Calvin God, stayed stoic.

No. No, I think, you know, the biggest error there is to imagine that his emotions or,

I don�t even want to say emotions, that his attributes are like our emotions, right?

That his wrath is like our emotion, that his love is like, and that he is either this or he�s that.

And, you know, and there�s no blending, by the way. He�s 100 % wrathful against sin, and he�s 100 % loving towards sinners, you know?

Well, I think this has helped, Steve, and I know you agree. If you think about God doesn�t change, right?

His love doesn�t change. His mercy doesn�t change. His grace doesn�t change. God is love. God is immutable.

And therefore, what John Owen is against, he�s against this

God of the Sosinians. Would you want to trust this

God? Would you want comfort from this God or help, or do you think he�s far off? Is he involved in the lives of his people?

Does he understand sympathetically, empathetically, or anything else? Who wants this

God? Well, that�s the God of Hebrews, right? I mean, the God who identifies with us in every way, because he was tempted and tried.

He understands all of it. He�s, you know, even in the Old Testament, you know, he�s mindful of us.

He remembers us. He�s not detached in any kind of way.

So, I mean, we don�t have the God of Thomas Jefferson.

What�s the word I�m looking for? Yeah, deist. Yeah, we don�t have a God of deism. This is functional deism, and you better read the last question to get this in in the last minute.

Okay, number seven. Question, what peace and comfort can I have in committing myself to his providence if he knows not what will befall me tomorrow?

Now, the answer here is the greatest answer on this page. Answer, what is that to me?

See you to that. Yeah. If you want a God who�s far away, lofty, not like you in any way, shape, or form, of course, this is all denying the incarnation of Jesus.

Maybe they think he�s incarnate, but he�s a lesser being. This is the God that you get. Theology has ramifications.

Yeah, the God that you can�t rely on, the God who�s, I mean, like, I say this all the time.

I�m sure I said it Sunday morning. He is not like us, right? He is like us in the sense that Jesus Christ was and is a man, but he�s not like us in the sense that his feelings are ephemeral, temporary, that his love waxes and wanes, and we cannot trust a

God who is like that. And thankfully, he�s not like that. Well, Steve, it�s been a good show today on the

Socinian Catechism by John Owen. We want to say no to Socinians, right? We say no to eternal functional subordination.

We say yes to John Owen. Amen, and shout out to Camden Boosie. Oh, yeah, it was on Reform Forum.

Anyway, you can email us, mike at nocompromiseradio .com. Israel Trip is maybe back on.

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