September 5, 2022 Show with Bill Shishko on “The Challenges of Church Planting Today”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century Gospel Minister George Norcross in downtown Carlyle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the Church and the world today.

Proverbs 27, verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Labor Day on this fifth day of September 2022.

I'm thrilled to have back not only one of my favorite guests to interview, he also happens to be one of my dearest friends and a brother in Christ who has been more passionately supportive of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio than anyone I know.

We have been friends since my very early days of rebirth as a new Christian in the 1980s and still remember well his visit to Calvary Baptist Church in Amityville, Long Island, where I was a member and where I was baptized when Pastor Shishko was a visiting preacher.

And I've just given away his last name, and if you listen to this show regularly, you will remember the first. It's Bill Shishko, pastor of The Haven, which is an Orthodox Presbyterian congregation in Comack, Long Island, New York.

And today we are going to be addressing the challenges of church planting today, and we're going to be hearing praise reports of God's providence and answers to prayer in the life of the congregation of The Haven in Comack, Long Island, New York.

It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Bill Shishko. Hey!

...by them and honored by them, and I want to thank you for all the work you're doing with Iron Sharpens, and you do it faithfully, so long as you keep...

Amen. Well, I appreciate that very much. And you were first introduced to me in the 1980s when you were still pastor of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Franklin Square, Long Island, in Nassau County, not far at all from the Queens border.

And that church had a lot to do with the growing in grace and maturity and understanding of doctrine and theology as not only a new Christian, but a Christian who grew and grew through the 90s and 2000s, as you frequently had Bible conferences that I attended that were really mind-stretching, mind-blowing, edifying, challenging, encouraging, comforting.

But the Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Franklin Square will forever remain near and dear to my heart, and I know it remains that way for many people that I know, especially from Long Island. So tell us about how you began in the endeavors and the labors of church planting while still pastoring the OPC of Franklin Square.

Well, a wonderful rock, and that's what gave me church planting in a very small community. It gave me the time to develop my pastor's toolbox, if you will, working on preaching and counseling and so on.

So that was how I cut my teeth on the ministry and on church planting. And then it was in March of 1981 that I began my work. And that was, it had fallen on hard times at the local level. And then there was a period that really continued for, and that's what really gave me just the burden for missions wherever it's done.

But church planting, it was in 1984, the planting, or it was when I came there, of what is now the church in Mount Vernon. And then in 1998, that was when the OPC in Bohemia, and then when we got into the new millennium, it was early in the two queens.

We had a Spanish-speaking work that was in Long Island. That was also where I learned who the Lord wanted us to learn Spanish. And then it was 2012 that we, Syosset, was formed. So we really, we had some flops along the way.

I learned a lot about having the right person for church planting. It was kind of a painful experience, but it was a good experience. So that's something of the background and my work as a church planter.

And do you think that this is something that many churches all too often neglect doing? There are churches, and I hope I don't offend too many people listening, I have nothing, I am not opposed at all to very large churches, as long as they have enough elders to adequately shepherd those folks.

But there are churches that want nothing more than to just have building programs to keep making their structures larger and larger to fill them with more people, rather than even consider planting churches where some of the people may be driving very long distances from to attend that church.

And so is that something you think that's lacking in a lot of churches, maybe even particularly Reformed churches?

Yeah, and you and I are so long as, to some extent, I guess, not really coveted, but I can see the benefits of a larger church where you can have more quote-unquote programs that reach out to people and ministries that reach out to people.

And so long as churches are doing that, I think that's great. However, I think especially in our day today, we're learning that people need community. Even this past Lord's Day, there was a lady visiting with us from another state.

She's part of a megachurch, and because it's a very loving community, and she said, I just need a church where I don't... So I, for myself personally, a lot of this is the way a church gets above 150 people that you're ministering to, but then you really need to add staff to help out along with your elders.

I really can work with other churches in our area. We do work with even other churches that are not part of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. But anyway, it's an interesting question, and I think you're right.

And I don't... I think Reformed churches that I've seen I think have been quite good when it's come to thinking of church planting because they do a smaller group.

So I... Now tell us about the church plant that you now pastor yourself. You are no longer the pastor of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Franklin Square, and now are pastoring the Haven. How long has it been now?

Well, I'd love to get to that one a little bit later.

I'd love... The way I think, Chris, I'm the kind of guy that I eat all my meat at once, and then I eat all the peas at once. If we could take your second hour, I think the impact of what really has been...

But I mean to preface it, in 2016, I'm not going to be comfortable unless you're in front of a microphone to chat, Chris. It's okay with you. I think... Could I just chat a little bit about the challenges of church planting today?

Would that be useful for your listeners? Oh, of course. In fact, I know quite a number of pastors who are in the midst.

Of planting churches at this very moment. And unfortunately, I've also heard about some of these new plants that did not survive. So this is important information, maybe especially for them, as they may seek to start all over again.

Somewhere else. Yeah. Well, I think of the book... I forget the author right now. I read it years ago called Church Planting Is Not For... Probably says in a nutshell what people need to know about church planting.

It is a challenge in every age. It's a decaying society. It's an increasingly secular society. It's not a society. I mean, back in the 1950s, people went to church because if you didn't go to a church or a synagogue, you were a communist.

And so there was that. Not really, but that's the way people thought. Well, we're not in that world today. And what I've found helps. One is thinking about the early church, and we read about that in the Book of Acts and the Book of Fathers.

We learn a comparison. The other is, and I urge your men that are doing church planting now, you have to see every challenge in church planting as it will stretch you. Church planting is not for somebody who's ossified, okay?

You've got to be willing to have a holy flexibility. We'll get to that in a little bit. But I think the challenges of church planting, of the many, I think there's four that stand. Effective media since the 19th...

Yeah, I remember the book that James Montgomery Boyce used to frequently recommend, Amusing Ourselves to Death, I think it was called. Yeah, as I do too. Well, it was in a sense.

Going to further a desire. And that book, Amusing Ourselves to Death, was regarded as kind of a Luddite thing when it came out. But now it's regarded...

But written by a secular Jew. Yeah, it was.

Reformed people, Chris, whether they're the Calvinistic Baptists or Reformed people, whatever stripe it would be, we've really been kind of used to talking to ourselves and using lingo that we're familiar with.

And opportunity is here. And it really... Chapter 9 in verse 19, we're to become all things to all people that by all means we might save some. And that's very clear in there. You don't detract from...

You do pay attention to people. I think it's a little bit like the book of Ecclesiastes. More than one person has pointed out that most of the books of the Bible, if not all of them, other than Ecclesiastes, really begin with what John Calvin would call a first knowledge, which is the knowledge of God.

In order to understand anything, you begin with God. He has... He feels more... Ecclesiastes, a dumbed-down culture, is listened to, communicated. It's kind of like the Reformed faith, like... ...endemic.

I mean, I've read... And we're dealing with the fallout from that, from people who have gotten out of the habit of a gathered-out body, not a bunch of observers. That's inherent in church. That has been...

I don't think it was really so much by the pandemic, although that affected it. Anyway, that... And Church Plant is going to have to address the question, why should people do church again? But in the end, that warning continues, and that's a big one, because we're not dealing with that today.

The last is the challenge of compromise by churches. And you think, but that's another big one. You know, people... Many people are used to eating fast foods, and McDonald's or Wendy's may taste good, but you try to live on that stuff.

And again, reformed churches, I think there's a lot more we can do about doing it better, and worship does need to have life in it. Compromising. We've got to meet this challenge of an entertainment-oriented age, and I think, again, what is it?

Why should a person be trying to determine that you know our culture and as our culture gives opportunity, especially for church plants,.

Where... I'm excited... Praise God, when you were talking about the horrors, the satanic evil of transgenderism, especially when it is involving children, when parents are having their children mutilated, sexually, either surgically or with medication.

Even the far-left TV figure, Bill Maher, said that, when I was a kid, I wanted to be a pirate. I'm so glad my parents didn't remove an eye and a leg. And I think that spoke volumes. We're going to go to our first break right now, and when we return, we have more in store for you in regard to church planting.

And our email address, if you have questions, is chrisarnsen at gmail dot com. C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail dot com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Let's say you are involved or were involved in a church plant failure, and you'd rather not identify yourself. That's just one of a number of reasons why someone might want to remain anonymous while asking about these subjects.

But if it's just a general question, please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Bill Shishko of the Haven Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Comac, Long Island, right after these messages from our sponsors.

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The Challenges of Church Planting in a Secular, Entertainment-Driven Culture

We're now back with Bill Shishko, pastor of The Haven, which is an Orthodox Presbyterian congregation in Comack, Long Island, New York, and we are speaking about the challenges of church planting. We already were addressing right before the break some of the challenges that Christians are facing for the first time in 2 ,000 years, things that even a handful of years ago might have been thought of as unspeakable and bizarre and nightmarish to even liberal people.

So, if you could, pick up where you left off there on the challenges specifically according to.

Not only our day and age, but also Long Island, New York. I was reading the ads and I was paying attention. I was thinking about things you might have missed. Sure. The book Amusing Ourselves to Death is Neil, the late Neil Postman.

Yes, I identified him as a secular Jew, actually. He was chairman of the communications company. But that really is, I think, anybody in these, any teachers, and you have to remember things, maybe writing things down, but not...

It's very interesting. There was a lot of opposition, believe it or not, to written things because the fear was that as individuals know how to read and they read individually, it's going to break down community, which is a very interesting mode of communication really created a very logical, analytical way of looking at things.

And then in the 20th century, you have, well, actually perceptive comments about the second commandment, you know, to worship God by graven images. And he sounds in many ways like kind of a secular John Owen dealing with it, John Owen the Puritan, pointing out that God, as he would put it, whoever he is, was concerned with how knowledge is communicated.

So anyway, it's a fascinating book. I recommend it to people. One of the things, Chris, that I didn't mention, this is a challenge on Long Island, but it is another, it's probably a sixth, in your challenge to your church planters.

The challenge of a problem that is exacerbated because we are so... That is any pastor, basically, or most of them, and in church planning where you're just starting out, you don't have all the resources, how do you not lose?

What it's worth, Chris, you've got to get the emotion, the charismatic sense, but music is a way of capturing. There's an interest, and I highly recommend, by Keith and Ben Godson, more modern thought.

The Civil Rights Movement, you know, a lot of discouragement. They apparently had a rally that wasn't well at the end. They asked if he was discouraged. Evangelical hymnody captured. I recommend, like, Sovereign Grace music is generally pretty solidly reformed stuff, put to music, and well done.

The other one, less well-written answers, but young people need to know they are listened to, and they're trying to process. They're on a marathon, 100 miles an hour, some time to process. I cannot too highly recommend.

Yes, I've had Dr. Truman on probably five times, at least. I thought so.

The Rise and Treasures Digest condemned all class.

And that's not just young people, but anybody. So that's an abridged version? Yeah, it is.

We got here, and we need to understand that. But the one that is abridged, yeah, the strange new world, inherently, I call it antisocial, one another, and it's a buffer to that. Anyway, young people are realizing this is not satisfying to them.

You just don't live for the, you know, the existential experience for lunch on the church as we're doing now. Wiped out by the reports and what they did following up on it. That has a profound effect.

And the last thing, I've noticed conferences, young people being part of Orthodox Presbyterian young people. You have your Calvinistic, you have kind of a responsible evangelical, our Trinity Church, our Presbyterian Southern California has an amazing, look at hundreds of people, 50 young people attending those things.

Those are great. I'm not the only, okay, so I hope that's okay. I just, I do think that's something that your church planters who are listening.

Oh, excellent stuff. And one thing that I have been surprised by, actually, in a pleasant way, is that we are wrong to automatically think that millennials want to attend a church that has a rock concert for worship service.

I was very surprised, pleasantly, when I had a conversation probably six years ago with a man who did evangelistic work on the campuses of various universities, including Princeton. And he said that many millennials, when they, even if they're lost, but have a sense of yearning to be connected with a religion and perhaps reconnect with the Christianity of their youth, that when they visit churches and they see a rock concert and they see a pastor with a t-shirt, jeans, and sandals, very often, this individual told me, they're turned off because they feel like it's a trap.

They feel like it's an artificial show just to lure them in. And that was further bolstered when one of the daughters of the woman who led me to Christ, when she was living in Florida, asked me to recommend churches to her.

And I did. I called up St. Andrews and Ligonier Ministries there in Orlando, and they gave me a list of churches that were reformed. And the one that was the closest to this young lady, I gave her the information.

She visited. She emailed me back, Chris, I hope your feelings aren't hurt, but I didn't like the church and I won't be returning. The pastor was wearing a t-shirt and jeans, and the service was more like a rock concert than a worship service.

It was warming to my heart, but mind-blowing at the same time. Chris, you nailed it. I mean, that's exactly right.

And he has befriends you. We have a lot of people come in.

And can you pick up right where you left off there? Because we have to go to our midway break. Okay, Chris. All righty, folks. Please be patient with us. This break, as always, is a bit longer than the others because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show because they have to air their public service announcements and local things that localize Iron Sharpens Iron Radio geographically to Lake City, Florida.

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And finally, if you're looking to worship in a Reformed church that holds to the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith,.

Please join us at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, New York. Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Invidio and thanks for listening. As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn. Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshiped and how he shall be represented in the world.

They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship God in spirit and truth. Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a God-centered focus.

Reading, preaching, and hearing the word of God, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, baptism, and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship, performed with faith, joy, and sobriety.

Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, at gcbcnj .squarespace .com. That's gcbcnj .squarespace .com. Or call them at 908 -996 -7654. That's 908 -996 -7654. Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.