September 5, 2022 Show with Bill Shishko on “The Challenges of Church Planting Today”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the Church and the world today.

Proverbs 27, verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

Earth. We're listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is

Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Labor Day on this fifth day of September 2022.

I'm thrilled to have back not only one of my favorite guests to interview, he also happens to be one of my dearest friends and a brother in Christ who has been more passionately supportive of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio than anyone

I know. We have been friends since my very early days of rebirth as a new

Christian in the 1980s, and still remember well his visit to Calvary Baptist Church in Amityville, Long Island, where I was a member and where I was baptized when

Pastor Shishko was a visiting preacher. And I've just given away his last name, and if you listen to this show regularly, you will remember the first.

It's Bill Shishko, pastor of The Haven, which is an Orthodox Presbyterian congregation in Comac, Long Island, New York.

And today we are going to be addressing the challenges of church planting today, and we're going to be hearing praise reports of God's providence and answers to prayer in the life of the congregation of The Haven in Comac, Long Island, New York.

It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Bill Shishko. Hey, Chris, it's so good to be back with you.

So thank you for all those words. I'm humbled by them and honored by them, and want to thank you for all the work you're doing with Iron Sharpens Iron.

You're not afraid to tackle difficult issues. You do it gracefully, and you do it faithfully to the

Word of God. So long as you keep doing that, you're going to be your most avid supporter. Amen.

Well, I appreciate that very much. And you were first introduced to me in the 1980s when you were still pastor of the

Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Franklin Square, Long Island, in Nassau County, not far at all from the

Queens border. And that church had a lot to do with the growing in grace and maturity and understanding of doctrine and theology as not only a new

Christian, but a Christian who grew and grew through the 90s and 2000s, as you frequently had

Bible conferences that I attended that were really mind -stretching, mind -blowing, edifying, challenging, encouraging, comforting.

But the Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Franklin Square will forever remain near and dear to my heart, and I know it remains that way for many people that I know, especially from Long Island.

So tell us about how you began in the endeavors and the labors of church planting while still pastoring the

OPC of Franklin Square. Well, Chris, hearing about your account of your conversion and thinking about mine in the

February of 1970 when I was working in radio up in northeastern

Connecticut, I never in my wildest imagination, I never would have thought when

I was converted that the Lord would give such a wonderful ride as a pastor and as a church planter.

I was ordained to the gospel ministry in October of 1979. At that time

I was leading a little mission church, interestingly, in South Carolina, and that's what gave me church planting basics, although in a very different culture than we have here on Long Island.

And it would also, because it was a very small community, it gave me the time to develop my pastor's toolbox, if you will, working on preaching and counseling and so on.

So that was how I cut my teeth on the ministry and on church planting. And then it was in March of 1981 that I began my work and my labors as pastor in Franklin Square, those labors that would continue for over 35 years.

And that was a rebuilding work for a church that had kind of fallen on hard times for various reasons.

I was able in those early years to serve on various committees of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, and it gave me a good feel for things beyond the local level.

And then there was a period that really continued for I would say the latter half of my ministry in Franklin Square where I was on short -term mission projects that brought me to about a half dozen different countries.

And that's what really gave me that, just the burden for missions wherever it's done. But church planting, it was in 1984 that we did the planting, or it was when

I came there, of what is now Westchester Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Mount Vernon.

And then in 1998 we began, we got back in the church planting, so to speak, or work, and that was when the

OPC in Bohemia was formed. And then when we got into the new millennium, it was early in the 2000s that we started the work on Reformation Presbyterian Church in Queens.

We had a Spanish -speaking work that was in Elmont, which is the second highest concentration of Spanish speakers on Long Island.

That was also in the early 2000s, but that folded when the pastor was called away, and that brought our

Spanish speakers into Franklin Square, and Margaret and I learned who the Lord wanted us to learn

Spanish. And then it was 2012 that we, the Trinity Church that is now in Syosset, was formed.

So we had some flops along the way. I learned a lot about having the right person for church planting.

It was kind of a painful experience, but it was a good experience. So that's something of the background and my work as a church planter.

And do you think that this is something that many churches all too often neglect doing?

There are churches, and I hope I don't offend too many people listening, I am not opposed at all to very large churches, as long as they have enough elders to adequately shepherd those folks.

But there are churches that want nothing more than to just have building programs, to keep making their structures larger and larger to fill them with more people, rather than even consider planting churches where some of the people may be driving very long distances from to attend that church.

And so is that something you think that's lacking in a lot of churches, maybe even particularly

Reformed churches? Yeah, and you and I are completely on the same page with that,

Chris. I'm not against a larger church, so long as you can shepherd, as the

Apostle Peter says, the among you flock of God. And that's not always done as well as it should be in larger or smaller churches.

And I can see, and at times I even, to some extent, I guess

I'm not really coveted, but I can see the benefits of a larger church where you can have more quote -unquote programs that reach out to people, and ministries that reach out to people.

And so long as churches are doing that, I think that's great. However, I think especially in our day today, we're learning that people need community.

Even this past Lord's Day, there was a lady visiting with us from another state. She's part of a megachurch in the state that she's from, and she said she reveled in the

Haven because it is smaller, it's a very loving community, and she said,

I just miss, it's being in a church where I don't know anybody really, really takes away a lot from what we're meant to experience in church life.

So I, for myself personally, a lot of this is the way that I'm wired to, once for me a church gets above 150 people that you're ministering to, by then you really need to add staff to help out along with your elders.

I really much prefer to be working with a smaller group of people. Of course, we have a

Presbytery structure, and we can work with other churches in our area, and we do work with even other churches that are not part of the

Orthodox Presbyterian Church. But anyway, it's an interesting question, and I think you're right, and I don't,

I think Reformed churches that I've seen I think have been quite good when it's come to thinking of church planting, because they do tend to think more in terms of a smaller group of people that you work with that you can shepherd well.

So I'm right there with that. Now tell us about the church plant that you now pastor yourselves.

You are no longer the pastor of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Franklin Square, and now are pastoring the

Haven. How long has it been now? Well, I'd love to get to that one a little bit later.

I'd love to. The way I think, Chris, I'm the kind of guy that I eat all my meat at once, and then

I eat all the peas at once. If we could take your second hour,

I think the impact of what really has been an amazing work of God will come across to people.

But I need to preface it. In 2016, I, with the agreement of the congregation, stepped down from being pastor in Franklin Square.

I had a little brief sabbatical, and then I was called by our regional group of churches, our

Presbyterian, to serve as a regional home missionary, and I worked with our churches and some others in southern

Connecticut and the metropolitan New York area. And I'll just kind of tease everybody with this.

I learned, Chris, during that time, I really am a pastor. I like working with a group of people that, and ideally they're converted under the ministry that I've had.

I love working with new Christians and with non -Christians and bringing them to Christ. And it was that, and I was told, actually, at my installation service when

I was installed as a regional home missionary, how the man who charged me said,

Bill, you're not going to be comfortable unless you're in front of a microphone, like I'm doing right now, in a manner of speaking, with greater work and working with people individually, and that'll kind of pave the way to deal with a second hour.

I'd love to chat, Chris, okay, with you. I think, could I just chat a little bit about the challenges of church planting today?

Would that be useful for your listening? Oh, of course. In fact, I know quite a number of pastors who are in the midst of planting churches at this very moment.

And unfortunately, I've also heard about some of these new plants that did not survive.

So this is important information, maybe especially for them, as they may seek to start all over again somewhere else.

Yeah, well, I think of the book, I forget the author right now, I read it years ago, called

Church Planting is Not for Wimps. And that probably says in a nutshell what people need to know about church planting.

I don't know if there's any easy age for church planting, but church planting is a challenge in every age.

I frankly have been very helped, as I think all church planters will be.

They're ministering in a decaying society. It's an increasingly secular society. It's not a society.

I mean, back in the 1950s, people went to church, because if you didn't go to a church or a synagogue, you were a communist.

And so it was that, not really, but that's the way people thought. Well, we're not in that world today.

And what I found helpful, Chris, I think two things. One is thinking about the early church, and we read about that in the

Book of Acts, and in the Apostolic Fathers. We learned so much about the way the early church turned the world upside down, and that comparison with the first sentence has been helpful.

The other is, and I urge your men that are doing church planting now, you have to see every challenge in church planting as including opportunities for your growth.

It will stretch you. Church planting is not for somebody who's ossified, okay?

You've got to be willing to have a holy flexibility. We'll get to that in a little bit.

But I think the challenges of church planting today, I think, Chris, of the many,

I think there's four that stand out. Number one is the effective media since the 1950s with the advent of television and an increasingly entertainment -oriented society has really, really served to dumb down our culture.

Yeah, I remember the book that James Montgomery Boyce used to frequently recommend, Amusing Ourselves to Death, I think it was called.

Yeah, as I do too. I still recommend that it was written in that. It was really a critique of, well, it was an assessment of Sesame Street, in which it said

Sesame Street isn't going to further education, it's just going to further a penchant for entertainment in all areas.

And that book, Amusing Ourselves to Death, was regarded as kind of a Luddite thing when it came out, but now it's regarded as almost stating the case too conservatively.

But written by a secular Jew. Yeah, it was, that's right. Anyway, it was, but again, inherent opportunity.

Reformed people, Chris, whether they're the Calvinistic Baptists or Reformed people, whatever stripe it would be, we've really been kind of used to talking to ourselves and using lingo that we're familiar with.

And opportunity is here, and it really, it's just encased in 1

Corinthians chapter 9 and verse 19, we're to become all things to all people, that by all means we might save some.

And that's very clear in there, you don't detract from biblical norms, but you do pay attention to people.

I think it's a little bit like the book of Ecclesiastes. More than one person has pointed out that most of the books of the

Bible, if not all of them other than Ecclesiastes, really begin with what

John Calvin would call a first knowledge, which is the knowledge of God.

In order to understand anything, you begin with God. And of course Ecclesiastes has

God in it, but he deals more with the second knowledge, which is man.

And the writer of Ecclesiastes just looks at this world from the perspective, a very real perspective, under the sun is his language, of what it's like if you don't have any hope in God.

Now he does, he leads them to that. And I think, Chris, that's kind of a key to dealing with a dumbed -down culture, is listen to what the culture is saying.

I mean, Tim Keller, with any disagreements we'd have with him, Tim was a master at this.

He listened to his New York culture, and he sought to speak to it.

And that's something that we, again, it's not losing a bit of the

Reformed faith, but learning how to communicate it. I don't like the term, but it's kind of like the

Reformed faith for dummies type thing. And I don't mean that in a demeaning way at all, but there's a reason why those books sell the way they have sold.

They're a way of communicating difficult things to people. I think a second challenge that is much more recent is the pandemic and the enforced lockdowns.

You mentioned churches that didn't survive. I mean, I've read that between a third and a fifth of churches closed during the lockdowns.

Not all church plants, but other smaller works. They didn't survive that. And we're dealing with the fallout from that, from people who have gotten out of the habit of going to church, but going to worship.

I mean, even the language for the church, an ecclesia, it's a gathered out body, not a bunch of observers.

That's inherent in church. That has been really torpedoed by the,

I don't think it was really so much by the pandemic, although that affected it. Some people were still scared to death to be within six feet of somebody else.

And, of course, we're told not to live out of fear. But anyway, the lockdowns really, really did a deed, and church planters in particular are going to have to address the question, why should people want to come to church?

But in that is inherently we're learning,

Chris, the need for community. People are realizing, I can't live in front of Zoom.

I've got to be with people. And so that's coming along. And I don't want to blather on too much, but I mentioned four.

The third one that is pretty obvious is the busyness of our culture.

And Luke 8, 14, the pleasures and the cares or the distractions of this life, that is huge in our culture today.

And it is the warning, even that warning continues in Luke 21 and verse 34.

Even the Lord's people are told not to be entrapped in those things. That's a big one, because it used to be people just knew you commit yourself to church life, and you serve church life.

And we're not dealing with that today. But the last is the competition of entertainment and the challenge of compromise by churches.

And thankfully, you've dealt with that a lot in your programming. But that's another big one.

You know, many people are used to eating fast foods, and McDonald's or Wendy's may taste good, but you try to live on that stuff for too long, and you're going to get sick.

And again, Reformed churches, I think there's a lot more we can do about doing more with music so people can sing it better.

And worship does need to have life in it, but without compromising.

We've got to meet this challenge of an entertainment -oriented age, and I think again, what is it?

Why should a person want to be with the Lord's people, hearing preaching and hearing teaching?

I do think, Chris, we're seeing a change in this way in our culture right now.

People are realizing, number one, and then I'll shut up for at least at this part.

People are realizing our culture, Chris, we're in a cul -de -sac. I mean, when you're in a culture in which seven -year -olds can be trying to determine their gender based on how they feel about something, you know our culture is not crashing and burning.

It's crashed, and it's really burning. And you can't do that for too long.

We're even beginning to see a change there. The whole concept of maleness and femaleness, what a woman is, what a man is, what marriage is, what family is, those things are the

Church's meat and potatoes. And as our culture begins, as it's doing now, to ask questions about this, what a tremendous opportunity, especially for Church plants, where in the nature of the case, they're asking, how do we minister in the culture that we're in?

So I realize the challenges, but I'm excited, frankly, about Church planting in this generation.

Praise God. When you were talking about the horrors, the satanic evil of transgenderism, especially when it is involving children, when parents are having their children mutilated, sexually, either surgically or with medication, even the far left

TV figure, Bill Maher, said that, when

I was a kid, I wanted to be a pirate. I'm so glad my parents didn't remove an eye and a leg.

And I think that spoke volumes. Yes, it does.

There's an example, incidentally, of somebody, and it is fascinating that Bill Maher is liberal in his political views, but boy, he has said so many things that are so thought -provoking and spot -on, but he knows how to communicate with his culture.

We're going to go to our first break right now, and when we return, we have more in store for you in regard to Church planting.

And our email address, if you have questions, is chrisarnsen at gmail .com c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com

As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Let's say you are involved or were involved in a church plant failure, and you'd rather not identify yourself.

That's just one of a number of reasons why someone might want to remain anonymous while asking about these subjects.

But if it's just a general question, please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence.

Don't go away. We'll be right back with Bill Shishko of the Haven Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Comac, Long Island, right after these messages from our sponsors.

James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries here, excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading to Washington, D .C.

for the G3 Ministries Regional Conference on the theme, Just Thinking About the Bible. The conference will be held

Thursday, September 15th, through Saturday, September 17th. I'll be speaking along with Stephen Lawson, Josh Weiss, founder of G3 Ministries, and Daryl Bernard Harrison and Virgil Walker, co -hosts of the

Just Thinking Podcast. To register, visit g3min .org, that's g3min .org,

and click on Events. Your registration will include a ticket to the Museum of the Bible nearby the conference venue in Washington, D .C.

So join me and Chris Arnson, September 15th through the 17th in Washington, D .C.

for the G3 Ministries Regional Conference. Register now before they run out of seats at g3min .org,

that's g3min .org. Stop by the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Exhibitor booth and say hi to Chris Arnson while you're there.

I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, President Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary.

Every Christian who's serious about the Deformed Faith and the Westminster Standards should have and use the eight -volume commentary on the theology and ethics of the

Westminster Larger Catechism titled Authentic Christianity by Dr. Joseph Morecraft.

It is much more than an exposition of the Larger Catechism. It is a thoroughly researched work that utilizes biblical exegesis as well as historical and systematic theology.

Dr. Morecraft is Pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia and I urge everyone looking for a biblically faithful church in that area to visit that fine congregation.

For details on the eight -volume commentary, go to westminstercommentary .com, westminstercommentary .com.

For details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com,

heritagepresbyterianchurch .com. Please tell Dr. Morecraft and the Saints at Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia that Dr.

Joseph Piper of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary sends you. If you're near retirement or thinking about retiring, you probably have questions.

How do you make your savings last? How much should you take out and when? You're ready for retirement, but are your finances?

Art Amundsen, an Edward Jones financial advisor, can help you build a strategy to help make sure your finances keep up with your long -term needs.

Do what it takes to get there. Now it's time to make the most of retirement. Visit edwardjones .com,

that's edwardjones .com, or call 717 -258 -4688, 717 -258 -4688.

We here at Iron Sharpens Iron Radio are forever grateful for the generous financial support of Art Amundsen, Edward Jones financial advisor in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

Call 717 -258 -4688 today. Music When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the

NASB. This is Darrell Bernard Harrison, co -host of the Just Thinking Podcast, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Tom Buck at First Baptist Church in Lindale, Texas, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Kent Keller of Faith Bible Church in Sharpsburg, Georgia, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Andrew Rapport, the Founder and Executive Director at Striving for Eternity Ministries, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Mark Romaldi, Pastor of Sovereign Grace Church of Greenbrier, Tennessee, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Christopher Cookston, Pastor of Prineville Community Church in Prineville, Oregon, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Matt Tarr, Pastor of High Point Baptist Church in Larksville, Pennsylvania, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. Here's a great way for your church to help keep

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew Bibles tattered and falling apart?

Consider restocking your pews with the NASB, and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Go to nasbible .com. That's nasbible .com to place your order.

If you love Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is by supporting our advertisers.

One such faithful advertiser, who really believes in what Chris Arnzen is doing, is

Daniel P. Patafuco, serious injury lawyer and Christian apologist.

Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society. Their mission?

To foster belief in the credibility of Scripture as the written word of God. They go to various churches, schools, and institutions to publicly display a rare collection of biblical texts, along with a fascinating presentation by Mr.

Patafuco, demonstrating the reliability of Scripture. To advance the cause of the

Gospel, they created a beautiful, perfect facsimile of the genealogy of Jesus Christ from the original engravings contained in a 1st edition 1611

King James Bible. This 17th century hand -engraved chart shows the family tree of Jesus Christ going back to Adam and Eve.

This book is complete with gorgeous full -size illustrations of Noah's Ark and the

Tower of Babel, and an explanation of why the genealogy of Jesus is so important for his claims to the throne of the universe.

Originals of this work are in museums, and nobody has ever made it accessible to the public in a large book form before.

You can have your own copy of this 44 -page genealogy book for a donation of $35 or more.

Visit historicalbiblesociety .org. That's historicalbiblesociety .org.

Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on the air. I'm Dr.

Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher McDowell.

It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word, and to enthusiastically proclaim

Christ Jesus the King and His doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island, and beyond.

I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love, as I have.

For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net

That's hopereformedli .net Or call 631 -696 -5711

That's 631 -696 -5711

Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

Satan is the father of lies and spin, and the mother of those lies is a government who has rejected

God. We have especially been lied to these last two years, and the COVID panic has been one of the central mechanisms that our government has used to lie to us and grab more power.

Because Christians have not been reading their Bibles, we are susceptible to lies and are weak in our ability to fight these lies.

God has given us His Word to fight Satan and his lies, and we need to recover all of God's Word, its serrated edge and all.

Mark your calendars for October 6th through 8th as we fight, laugh, and feast to the glory of God in Knoxville, Tennessee.

You'll be enlightened, edified, encouraged, and challenged by ten speakers on the theme,

Lies, Propaganda, Storytelling, and the Serrated Edge, covering various topics that address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Speakers include Pastor Doug Wilson of Christ Church of Moscow, Idaho, and the whole gang at the

Cross Politics Show and Podcast. For details, visit flfnetwork .com.

That's F for fight, L for laugh, F for feast, network .com.

See you there October 6th through 8th in Knoxville, Tennessee. We here at Iron Sharpens Iron Radio praise

God for the generous monthly financial support of Royal Diadem Jewelers, educated by and affiliated with the

American Gem Society, Jewelers of America, and the Gemological Institute of America.

For the perfect custom -designed engagement ring or any one -of -a -kind piece of jewelry created exactly according to your imagination and specifications,

Royal Diadem Jewelers has you covered. No matter where you live in the world,

Royal Diadem will walk you step -by -step through every stage of the process and even hold a high -tech internet virtual visit using state -of -the -art jewelry design technology to serve you.

They start by listening carefully to determine your needs. They're interested in making what you want, not what they want to sell you.

From rough design to digital model to photorealistic image, to wax prototype model to the finished product, they are continually listening to your input, likes and dislikes, making any changes necessary along the way.

This will ensure that your custom jewelry will turn out exactly as you dreamed and well beyond your expectations.

Visit royaldiadem .com. That's royaldiadem .com today.

Sterling Vanderwercker, owner of Royal Diadem Jewelers, his wife, Bronnie, his business partner and manager,

Brian Wilson, and the entire family, thank you all for listening to, praying for, and supporting the work of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And please don't forget, folks, that for the first month of advertising with Royal Diadem Jewelers, and they have about two more weeks,

I believe, they are donating 100 % of the profits for any sale of jewelry, $100 or more, directly to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

We're getting all the profits if you mention Iron Sharpens Iron Radio to them when you're either buying a piece of jewelry that they already have in stock, or if you're having a piece of jewelry customized for an engagement ring, or perhaps you're using your church logo or your parachurch logo to create a pendant or a ring or something of that nature, please go to royaldiadem .com,

royaldiadem .com, find Christian folks running that business, and I've seen firsthand what they can create, and it's mind -blowing.

The son of the woman who led me to Christ got a custom -designed cross pendant, and it is stunning beyond description.

So I can trust them, and I know that they do a fine job and a meticulous job, and they're never going to stop making corrections that you may have until it's exactly the way you want it.

That's royaldiadem .com. We're now back with Bill Shishko, pastor of The Haven, which is an

Orthodox Presbyterian congregation in Comac, Long Island, New York, and we are speaking about the challenges of church planting.

We already were addressing right before the break some of the challenges that Christians are facing for the first time in 2 ,000 years, things that even a handful of years ago might have been thought of as unspeakable and bizarre and nightmarish to even liberal people.

So if you could, pick up where you left off there on the challenges, specifically according to not only our day and age, but also

Long Island, New York. Yeah, well, so much to do there.

Could we back up? While you were running the ads and I was paying attention, I was thinking about things you might have missed from the previous talk.

I should mention, the book Amusing Ourselves to Death is written by, and you're right, he was,

I don't know if he was a conservative Jew, he might have been more of a Reform Jew, but is Neil, the late

Neil Postman. Yes, I identified him as a secular Jew, actually. Right, right.

He was chairman of the communications department at New York University, but that really is still a primer.

I think anybody in these, any teachers, all teachers, especially English teachers, we would actually give them to teachers that we knew just to help them understand things.

It's, and I don't want to spend too much time on it, but essentially, communication theory, if you want, you go from oral communication, people would sit in groups and speak, and you had to remember things.

There were not really the means for maybe writing things down, but not publishing them.

And then, with the invention of movable -type printing in the 15th century, that changed everything.

It's very interesting. There was a lot of opposition, believe it or not, to written things, because the fear was that as individuals know how to read, and they read individually, it's going to break down community, which is a very interesting dynamic.

And then that written, he calls it the linotype world, which is interesting, but that written mode of communication really created a very logical, analytical way of looking at things.

And then, in the 20th century, you have, well, actually beginning in the late 19th century, or the mid -19th century, with the invention of the camera, increasingly you have communication by images.

And Postman, interestingly, has some of the most perceptive comments about the

Second Commandment, you know, to worship God by graven images. And he sounds in many ways like kind of a secular

John Owen dealing with it, John Owen the Puritan, pointing out that God, as he would put it, whoever he is, was concerned with how knowledge is communicated.

So anyway, it's a fascinating book. I recommend it to people. One of the things, Chris, that I didn't mention, this is a challenge on Long Island, but it is another, it's probably a sixth of your challenge to your church planters out there, is the challenge of not losing our young people.

And this is, I don't want to say this is uniquely American, but it certainly is a problem that is exacerbated in America because we are so independent in the way we think.

And that is, any church planter, any pastor, basically, or most of them, they're going to say this is a big challenge.

And in church planting, when you're just starting out, you don't have all the resources, how do you not lose young people?

So for what it's worth, Chris, these are just some of my thoughts on that. You've got to get the emotions of people, and I don't mean this in a kooky, charismatic sense, but music is a way of capturing the emotions of people.

There's an interest, and I highly recommend the little book, Sing! by Keith and Kristen Getty, who have been godsends to Christians in our day, because they'll take traditional hymns and they'll give the more modern settings for the oasis.

But the book Sing! is a basic theology of singing. And they've got a little quotation in there, a little story.

It was in the Civil Rights Movement in the 1950s, actually.

You know, a lot of discouraging things for, say, Martin Luther King. And at one point, there was a family that had a rally that wasn't well attended, and they asked him if he was discouraged, and he said no, because we have music that captures the soul,

I think he might have said, of our young people. And he didn't mean that in a manipulative sense. It's true.

We found it, and those of us in the 60s, the folk music of the time captured us. Hymnody, evangelical hymnody, captured generations.

And we've got to, quite frankly, get more on the ball with all that. I recommend, like,

Sovereign Grace music is generally pretty solidly Reformed stuff. Put to music and well done.

The other one, less well known, is Church Works Media, which really has done some tremendous work with contemporary hymns that are singable.

One of them that we love at the Haven is Christ is Sufficient. And it's just rich with doctrine.

So that's one thing. And I'll try to go through these kind of quickly. But the other thing is with young people, they really do struggle, not just young people, adults too, but especially young people, struggle with a sense of identity, what they are.

And you have to honestly address the cultural issues regarding gender, regarding calling, and these things.

And thank God we have those resources in the Scriptures. And you listen.

I urge your pastors, listen to young people. Don't come at them with bad answers.

They may be the right answers. But young people need to know they are listened to, and they're trying to process.

They're on a merry -go -round that's going about 100 miles an hour, and they need some time to process their experiences and what they're thinking.

I cannot too highly recommend, I don't know if you've interviewed, you probably have, but Carl Truman, have you interviewed

Carl Truman? Yes, I've had Dr. Truman on probably five times at least. I thought so,

I thought so, yeah. His Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self, that's must -read, absolute must -read for our day.

He's nailed it. The Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self, and then there's the kind of Reader's Digest condensed version called

A Strange New World, which we're going to be using in not too long for adult class just to help people understand.

And that's not just young people, but anybody. So that's an abridged version? Yeah, it is.

It really is, and it's designed more for study classes, and it cuts through. I mean, Dr. Truman's book is,

I think for pastors, is a must because he deals with the history of things and how we got here, and we need to understand that.

But the one that is abridged, yeah, The Strange New World. The other two things with young people, missions.

Young people need a cause that is higher than themselves. And this,

Chris, this is, remember I said, in all these challenges, there's almost inherently the antidote to the challenge.

Facebook, I call it anti -social media because it really isn't social media. It works against young people communicating with one another, and it's a buffer to that.

Anyway, young people are realizing this is not satisfying to them.

You just don't live for the existential experience of putting what you ate for lunch on Facebook.

So, but particularly a sense of purpose in mission work.

The mission of the Church is the Great Commission, and having young people getting a project, in some cases, like one of the things that the

OPC is doing now is working with our congregation in Neon, Kentucky, that the

Church was pretty much wiped out by the recent floods. Young people raising the funds to go giving reports on what they did, following up on it.

That has a profound effect on young people saying, hey, there is something more important than the unholy trinity of me, myself, and I.

And the last thing that I can't overstate, and this is where community comes in, of course, missions will give community to young people.

But I've noticed, Chris, over my years in the ministry, whether it be the community of a

Christian school or the community of, in our case, Presbyterian family camps, regional camps or conferences, young people being part of these things where once a year or twice a year they meet with other singles, they meet with other

Christians in their area. And I think we've got to be a little bit more, I'll use the word here in the right sense, the word

Catholic about this. It's not just Orthodox, Presbyterian young people. You have your

Calvinistic, Baptist young people. And we've got others who have kind of a responsible, evangelical view.

We have actually a minister working out of our Trinity Church who's networking like this. So young people realize they're not alone.

They can have their issues developed. And I really think we would do things on a

Presbyterian level. Our Presbyterian Southern California has an amazing family camp.

And we've got hundreds of people, including 150 young people attending those things.

Those are great, but we can be doing things more locally and regionally so Christians realize

I'm not the only Christian in Long Island. Okay, so I hope that's okay. I do think that's something that your church planters who are listening are wrestling with.

Oh, excellent stuff. And one thing that I have been surprised by, actually in a pleasant way, is that we are wrong to automatically think that millennials want to attend a church that has a rock concert for worship service.

I was very surprised, pleasantly, when I had a conversation probably six years ago with a man who did evangelistic work on the campuses of various universities, including

Princeton. And he said that many millennials, even if they're lost, but have a sense of yearning to be connected with a religion and perhaps reconnect with the

Christianity of their youth, that when they visit churches and they see a rock concert and they see a pastor with T -shirt, jeans, and sandals, very often, this individual told me, they're turned off because they feel like it's a trap.

They feel like it's an artificial show just to lure them in. And that was further bolstered when one of the daughters of the woman who led me to Christ, when she was living in Florida, asked me to recommend churches to her.

And I did. I called up St. Andrews and Ligonier Ministries there in Orlando, and they gave me a list of churches that were reformed.

And the one that was the closest to this young lady, I gave her the information.

She visited. She emailed me back, Chris, I hope your feelings aren't hurt, but I didn't like the church and I won't be returning.

The pastor was wearing a T -shirt and jeans, and the service was more like a rock concert than a worship service.

It was warming to my heart, but mind -blowing at the same time.

Chris, you nailed it. I mean, that's exactly right. Yesterday I was speaking with one of our

Orthodox Presbyterian ministers in our Presbytery, and he has befriended pastors of the megachurches in his area.

And one of them was just amazingly transparent, and he said, I confess my frustration.

We have a lot of people that come in, because as you put it, it's the rock concert and the whole thing, and people come in.

But he said, we have just as many that go out the other direction because they're not getting fed.

They're not being ministered to. And can you pick up right where you left off there? Because we have to go to our midway break.

Okay, Chris. All righty, folks. Please be patient with us. This break, as always, is a bit longer than the others because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show because they have to air their public service announcements and local things that localize

Iron Trip and Zion Radio geographically to Lake City, Florida. And while they do that, we simultaneously air our globally heard commercials.

Please use this time wisely. Respond to our advertisers. We'll be right back. Don't go away.

Attention all men in ministry leadership. You're all invited to my friend Chris Arnzen's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastors Luncheon Thursday, September 22nd, 11 a .m.

to 2 p .m. at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania, featuring me,

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries, your keynote speaker. Not only will you enjoy a wonderful time of fellowship with your colleagues in ministry over a delicious meal, but you'll also receive dozens of free brand new books donated by Christian publishers all over the

United States and the United Kingdom, personally selected by Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

So if you're a pastor, an elder, a deacon, a parachurch leader, or any other man in ministry leadership, please register for the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastors Luncheon today by calling 631 -291 -7002 631 -291 -7002 or by visiting ironsharpensironradio .com

ironsharpensironradio .com This is James White of Alpha Omega Ministries hoping to see you

Thursday, September 22nd, 11 a .m. to 2 p .m. at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania, for Chris Arnzen's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastors Luncheon It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners from all over the world.

Here's Joe Reilly, a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed,

Dr. Joe Moorcraft. I'm Joe Reilly, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener here in Ottawa, in County Kildare, Ireland, going back to 2005.

One of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is Dr. Joe Moorcraft. If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr.

Moorcraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia are largely to thank since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters.

Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area.

Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards and Dr.

Joe Moorcraft is the author of an eight -volume commentary on the larger catechism. Heritage is a member of the

Hanover Presbytery, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone, and tracing its roots and heritage back to the great

Protestant Reformation of the 16th century. Heritage maintains and follows the biblical truth and principles proclaimed by the reformers, scripture alone, grace alone, faith alone,

Christ alone, and God's glory alone. Their primary goal is the worship of the Triune God that continues in eternity.

For more details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com

that's heritagepresbyterianchurch .com or call 678 -954 -7831 that's 678 -954 -7831

If you visit, tell them Joe O 'Reilly, an Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener from a tie in County Kildare, Ireland sent you.

Anchored in Truth Ministries is the mission arm of Grace Life Church of the Shoals. Based in Alabama, it supports missionaries in over 13 countries around the world.

Anchored in Truth is in partnership with 36 church plants, as well as radio stations, theological seminaries, and various programs for unreached people groups.

With an aim to glorify God and reach the nations with the gospel, it is a blessing to see how

God has used Anchored in Truth in so many different contexts globally as well as locally.

To find out more about this vital work worldwide, visit anchoredintruth .org

Hello, my name is Anthony Uvino and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Quorum, New York and also the host of the reformrookie .com

website. I want you to know that if you enjoy listening to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio show like I do, you can now find it on the

Apple's iTunes app by typing Iron Sharpens Iron Radio in the search bar. You no longer have to worry about missing a show or a special guest because you're in your car or still at work.

Just subscribe on the iTunes app and listen to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio show at any time, day or night.

Please be sure to also give it a good review and pass it along to anyone who would benefit from the teaching and the many solidly

Reformed guests that Chris Arnson has on the show. Truth is so hard to come by these days, so don't waste your time with fluff or fake news.

Subscribe to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio podcast right now. And while you're at it, you can also sign up for the reformrookie .com

podcast and visit our website and the YouTube page. We are dedicated to teaching Christian theology from a

Reformed Baptist perspective to beginners in the faith as well as seasoned believers. From Keech's Catechism and the

Doctrines of Grace to the Olivet Discourse and the Book of Leviticus, the reformrookie podcast and YouTube channel is sure to have something to offer everyone seeking

Biblical truth. And finally, if you're looking to worship in a Reformed church that holds to the 1689

London Baptist Confession of Faith, please join us at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, New York.

Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Ivino and thanks for listening. As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how He shall be worshipped and how

He shall be represented in the world. They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship

God in spirit and truth. Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a

God -centered focus. Reading, preaching, and hearing the Word of God, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, baptism, and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship, performed with faith, joy, and sobriety.

Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at gcbcnj .squarespace

.com That's gcbcnj .squarespace .com

Or call them at 908 -996 -7654 That's 908 -996 -7654

Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor.

Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio has had a long -time partnership with our friends at CVBBS, which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

They specialize in supplying Reformed and Puritan books and Bibles at discount prices that make them affordable for everyone.

CVBBS has been a family -owned book service since 1987. Operating out of Carlisle, Pennsylvania, they seek to bring you the best available

Christian books and Bibles at the best possible prices. Unlike other book sites, they make no effort to provide every book that is available or popular because, frankly, much of what is being printed is not worth your time.

That means you can get to the good stuff faster. It also means you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic, heretical, and otherwise faith -insulting materials promoted by the secular book vendors.

Browse the pages at ease, shop at your leisure, and purchase with confidence at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

Order online at cvbbs .com. That's cvbbs .com.

Or you can order by phone at 1 -800 -656 -0231.

That's 1 -800 -656 -0231. Please let our friends at CVBBS know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, President and Professor of Systematic and Homiletical Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Taylors, South Carolina.

And the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Chuck White at the

First Trinity Lutheran Church in Tonawanda, New York. And the NASB is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Anthony Mathenia of Christ Church in Radford, Virginia. And the NASB is my

Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Jesse Miller of Damascus Road Christian Church in Gardnerville, Nevada.

And the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Bruce Bennett of Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York.

And the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Rodney Brown of Metro Bible Church in South Lake, Texas.

And the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Jim Harrison of Red Mills Baptist Church in Mayapac Falls, New York.

And the NASB is my Bible of choice. Here's a great way for your church to help keep

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew Bibles tattered and falling apart?

Consider restocking your pews with the NASB. And tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Go to nasbible .com That's nasbible .com to place your order.

Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said, Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted. He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

You need to read. Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the

Prince of Preachers to heart. The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and future, and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered, Christ -exalting books for all ages.

We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com That's solid -ground -books .com

and see what priceless literary gems from the past to present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Before we return to the interview with Bill Shishko, we also have some very important announcements to make.

First of all, folks, if you love this show and don't want it to disappear, please go to ironsharpensironradio .com

click support, then click click to donate now. You can donate instantly with a debit or credit card in that fashion.

If you prefer snail mail, sending in a physical check to a physical address, there will also be a physical address that appears on your screen when you click support at ironsharpensironradio .com

where you can mail checks made payable to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. If you want to advertise with us, as long as whatever it is you're promoting is compatible with what we believe,

I would love to help you launch an ad campaign because we are as urgently in need of your advertising dollars as we are of your donations.

So send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line. Keep in mind, folks,

I want you to remember I never want anyone listening to give your own church where you are a member less money in order to bless

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio with a financial gift. In other words, the money that you have allotted every week, that you have budgeted to go to your local church, please don't dig into that or cut into that to give us a gift.

And also, if you are really struggling to survive, I don't want to be the cause of bills mounting up even higher on your kitchen table that are left unpaid or less food being served on your dinner table.

Those two things are commands of God to provide for your church and your family. Providing for my radio show is obviously not a command of God.

But if you are blessed financially, above and beyond your ability to provide for your church and family, you have extra money in the bank collecting interest, you have extra money for benevolent, recreational, and trivial purposes, well please, if you really love this show, share some of that money with us.

Because we are on the verge of not being able to continue this program and we really need your help.

Go to ironsharpensironradio .com, click support, then click, click to donate now. Lastly, if you are not a member of a

Christ -honoring, biblically faithful, theologically sound, doctrinally solid church, like the

Haven Orthodox Presbyterian Congregation in Comac, Long Island, well

I have lists, extensive lists, spanning the globe. And I may be able to help you find a church no matter where on the planet

Earth you live, sometimes even within minutes from your own home, as I have done already with many people all over the world in our listening audience.

So if that's you or someone you love, you're homeless spiritually, you need a good, solid church, send me an email to ChrisArnson at gmail .com.

ChrisArnson at gmail .com. And put, I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Pastor Bill Shishko.

I mispronounced his name even though I've known him for 30, 40 years. Shishko, S -H -I -S -H -K -O.

Send in your email to ChrisArnson at gmail .com and give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence.

Pastor Shishko, not to have a rabbit trail here, but I could not help but remember something that was very much a blessing to me when

I stayed in your home for a couple of nights and had the joy of sharing fellowship with you and your lovely bride,

Margaret. You had, when I heard the ad for Solid Ground Christian Books, I heard that famous quote that we hear every day by Charles Haddon Spurgeon, and I remember at your dinner table, you have a custom of reading from Spurgeon, and you even have a name for it.

I can't remember the name you have for that. What do you call that? I'm not sure what the name was.

We called Charles Spurgeon. This is an Orthodox Presbyterian saying. Right. We call the Baptist Charles Spurgeon, Pastor Spurgeon, in our home, and his morning and evening devotions.

We're pressed for time. A lot recently, Margaret and I have our devotions using his morning and evening and praying and so on, and I'm not taking away from the importance of Bible reading, but at the same time, we really esteem highly a pastor ministering to us, and Pastor Spurgeon has done that in remarkable ways, so I completely, however you do it in a home, families need that.

Probably family worship. I'm not sure if that was the term or whatever, but anyway. I think you just said a word from Pastor Spurgeon or something like that.

Yeah, I don't know what it was anyway, but can we talk about the Haven? Yes, definitely.

I want people to visit there. Oh, yeah. I'm so excited about that, Chris. Years ago, when

I was preaching through the Book of Acts, you know, the thing for a preacher is when you're about midway through a book, then you really begin to learn how to preach on it, and it dawned on me as I'm preaching through Acts, the theme of the

Book of Acts, is Jesus is alive and at work. And that's one of my slogans

I'll use a lot, but what we've learned at the Haven is Jesus is alive and he's at work.

I was a regional home missionary for a regional group of churches from 2000, well, beginning in 2016, and then it was in 2018 that I was urged to start a, or work towards seeing a church planned, started in Suffolk County, and for all of your listeners, of course, you're familiar with this, but as you come out to the east of the five boroughs of New York City, you're coming out of Brooklyn and particularly

Queens, which is where JFK Airport is. You have a county that's about 15 miles long, that's

Nassau County, that's where I administered for my 35 plus, my 35 years in Franklin Square, and then when you come out of Nassau County, you're in Suffolk County, which goes to the end of the island, which is,

I'm not sure how many miles, the whole island's about 120 miles long, but when you're coming out of Suffolk County, you have, what, two fingers.

You have the north fork and the south fork with Riverhead, the county seed being in the middle. Anyway, Suffolk County is where we are, population of about one and a half million people, and there are only three

Presbyterian churches and Reformed churches in that area, one in West Sago, our congregation in Bohemia, and a

PCA church in South Hampton, and you would know, of Calvinistic churches there, but there's certainly not as, you've got the

Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Medford, we certainly have that work there, but there's not a lot of Reformed work out in this very needy area.

Right, right, by the way, Hope moved to Quorum. Right, that's right, that's it. So anyway, so Pastor Jensen, the dear friend, the wonderful worker, but again, we all admit, you know, with that number of people, not a lot of Reformed churches, so in the last third of 2018,

I began meeting with families in Suffolk County, in many cases, sadly, there were people who had some bad experiences in certain churches,

I mean, really bad experiences, thankfully, not so much in Reformed churches, but in churches of other

Communions, and January of 2019 through April of 2019, we met as a

Sunday evening Bible study in the home of one of our men who's now one of our elders, John Vaife, and our very adept accompanist,

Mary Vaife, and it was, we sang, we sang from the Trinity Psalter Hymnal, we did some more contemporary things, especially things by the

Gettys, of course there was a study in Ephesians and prayer, and that's where the name came from, it was actually our son,

Jonathan, who said, wow, what a great name for a church, the Haven, because it, from Psalm 107, 30, the

Lord brought his people to their desired haven, and we were all agreed that's what we wanted, a place where people could come and learn about Christ as the great haven, from April 2019 to March of 2020, we had a wonderful facility, the

Lutheran Church in Deer Park, which is really where we wanted to settle, but then, the time was not good, we met at 430, and then of course the enforced lockdown came, but that, that,

Chris, interesting, kind of began, I tell people, we're an activist congregation, in many ways, we were one of the churches that appealed to our assembly people that there had been discrimination against churches in New York State, our governor at the time hadn't even made provision for when churches would open, and this is quite a brazen thing to just tell churches you can't meet, so we worked the haven and other churches worked with assembly people, and thank the

Lord at the end of, in early June actually, of 2020, the governor did give permission for churches to meet, one of our lines, you'll get a kick out of this, with your sense of humor, we told our assembly people, you know, in our circles we're told if you want to meet for a worship service, go to the plumbing department at Home Depot, and that was kind of a gentle way of saying, ah, hello, we're being discriminated against, anyway, that was at that time we began meeting first, it was outdoors and then indoors, and we met at the

OPC in Bohemia, where we met, really, until it was last Lord's Day, September 4th, and it was interesting,

Chris, how God used the haven at that time, it was November of 2000,

November of 2020, the Lord took their pastor of, wow, over, of 20 years, the

Lord took Pastor Plukman home to glory very suddenly. Yeah, very sad to hear that news, but I know that he is not regarding it now.

No, he is not, but it was a blow for the congregation, in fact, there was some question of whether they would even be able to continue as a church, but I think the haven being in their facility,

I was able to preach some Lord's Days for them, and of course we paid them for the privilege of using the facility, and it was just kind of like having a comforting friend nearby when you needed it.

Now, of course, we rejoice in the Lord providing Pastor Adriano Silva and his wife

Carla for that work, so that was really something to see how the Lord worked, and so that's the beginning of the haven.

What is really, I forget the language you use, God's amazing providences for the haven, and they really are, background on that,

Chris, it was I think the summer of September of 2021, or it may have been about September, I'm not sure, but a young man began coming to the haven, and he had, 35 years ago, he was homeless, and he was addicted to drugs and alcohol, and he lived in a pipe, believe it or not, on the property of this church called

Cleft of the Rock Bible Church, which was a Oh yeah, I remember that church. Sure, well that church had quite an evangelistic ministry in that area, it was a brethren congregation, and it was really kind of a going concern, they used their facility to house a homeschool co -op, and I mean they were really quite a vibrant congregation.

He was part of this, and then he became a prodigal child for some time, and then came back to the

Lord, and by that time he'd come to the church, and he found out about the haven, and started coming, and he said, well, we're praying for a church facility, we wanted something more in the central western part of Suffolk County, which is why my wife and I relocated to Deer Park in 2021, and he said, well,

I know it's not actually where you want to be, but there's a church up in Comac, and I think they're going to have to close it up, would you be interested in that?

And by that time, Chris, after we'd looked at all kinds of facilities in the

Deer Park area, and had not gotten very far, and God's good providence we had,

I said, well, you know, let's see, and he said, well, let me talk to the elders there, and he did, and there were three elders left in that congregation, and they were quite interested.

They didn't know about the haven, and they said, no, we don't know what to do with the building, let's meet with them.

So I think it was October of 2000, and that we met with their three remaining elders, and a couple of other members subsequently moved away, and we had a three -and -a -half -hour meeting with these

Brethren men, and I anticipated Brethren dispensationalism and Arminianism, but surprisingly and thrillingly, they had all been influenced by R .C.

Sproul, John Piper, the Reformation Study Bible, and at least in terms of the basics of the

Reformation Study they were right with us, and they were thrilled that we had the Lord's Supper every week, as the

Brethren do. So after a three -and -a -half -hour meeting, in which I think they're pinching themselves, saying, are these really

Orthodox Presbyterians? Are we saying, are these really Brethren? They virtually offered to give us this facility, which originally had been a military chapel, and it was purchased,

I think it was in the 1950s, a Baptist church that was there. It moved it, it was this quaint little thing, and it holds about 80 people.

But it's on almost two acres of property, right on Veterans Highway, which as you know is the main track in that area.

And they virtually offered to give it to us, although we said, well, you have missionaries that you support, why don't you figure out how much more you want to do supporting your missionaries, and let's make that the purchase price.

And so it was about two weeks later that their head elder, who's now coming to the haven, Joe Pulio, Joe called and said, well, we've discussed this, and how does $425 ,000 sound?

And, you know, I wanted to shout like a Pentecostal and say hallelujah, but you know, Orthodox Presbyterians don't do that stuff.

So I said, oh, that sounds fine. And what was amazing, not only the price, because we're looking at, you know, a church building on prime real estate in that area, but that money was all going to go for missions projects, which was wonderful for us.

And then, as things worked out, the Orthodox Presbyterian Church has a loan fund, and they granted us a $500 ,000 loan so that we could not only pay for the building, but also do the capital improvements there.

And, of course, over the years, we had gotten bigger and very generous to the church, and we were able to save up enough for the down payment on the mortgage and so on.

And although we still are looking for donations for the haven, but that's really looking more to minister to people right now.

So that's how that worked. And then, God's blessing again, one of our haven members is a co -owner of a business in the city,

New York City, that does interior construction. And they, he took the best of his glory and they are gems.

And so for the last, oh my, I think since maybe May, they have been working on the capital improvements and brought about just a remarkable transformation in that facility.

And so now we're looking at, you know, we've got to try to date the programs, keep them evergreen, but you've given the date.

We're looking at this upcoming Sunday, September 11th, for our opening service.

And I don't know because it doesn't, on the one hand, seem to fit. September 11th, 2001 was a tragic day for the country, tragic day in New York, and it didn't seem to fit.

But the context of our verse, on 107 .30, is about trials and tribulations on the seas, and the

Lord bringing his people to their desired haven. So we all thought, what better time to preach on Christ, the great haven, than So that's what we're looking to for Sunday, September 11th.

Our worship time will be 10 o 'clock in the morning, and that's what we'll follow. And we have a picnic that day.

We're not beginning Christian Ed until mid -October, for various reasons, but we'll have the...

Our worship service is a little bit long. We have the Lord's Supper every week, where usually it's about an hour and a half, but it's not boring.

We use a bulletin where the Scripture texts are given, there's a corporate response. We take the regulative principle very seriously.

We do what the Lord commands in his word, and he commands amens, and he commands hallelujahs, and he commands lifted hands.

And the thing is, it's not a free -for -all, as it is in some charismatic churches, but it's a corporate response, and it's a very hearty response.

People will comment that even with our organized liturgy, which is basically a prayer service, but it's just we put all the elements in there in a bulletin form so people new to the

Reformed faith can follow. But Chris, we pray for the presence and the power of the

Holy Spirit in our assemblies, and God, Luke 11, 13, and God really is blessed, but you've probably got a commercial break coming up, right?

Yeah, I can take it now so that I don't have to interrupt you. I can take it early. If you have a question, send it in as soon as you can to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

chrisarnson at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

Don't go away. We'll be right back with Bill Shishko right after these messages. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries here, excited to announce that my longtime friend,

Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and I are going to be talking to Chris Arnson.

We're going to be We're going to be talking to Chris Arnson. Arnson. We're going to be talking to Chris Arnson. We're going to be talking to Chris Arnson. We're going to be talking to Chris Arnson.

We're going to be Arnson. I wanna meet him. I wanna meet him.

You're gonna give me You're gonna get take you for sure. go for everything he Sunday school classroom or the small group study. So often we experience great preaching from the pulpit, but when it comes time to study

God's Word in those smaller settings, well let's be honest, it leaves a lot to be desired.

It seems like it is nearly impossible to find good curriculum out there today that is true to the

Word of God and is built upon sound doctrine, much less it's hard to find curriculum that will actually teach people how to study the

Bible. Hi there, my name is Jordan Tew and I am the executive director of the Baptist Publishing House.

Our ministry is dedicated to providing local churches with sound Bible study resources.

Our quarterly curriculum is titled the Baptist Expositor and for good reason. We are

Baptist and we exegete the scriptures. If you want to have a curriculum that teaches your people how to study the

Word of God, I invite you go to our website, download a free study, baptistpublishinghouse .com.

May God bless you. When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the NASB.

I'm Pastor Nate Pickowitz of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmanton Iron Works, New Hampshire and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Rich Jensen of Hope Reform Baptist Church in Quorum, New York and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Suley Prince of Oakwood Wesleyan Church in Toronto, Ontario, Canada and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor John Sampson of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Chuck Volo of New Life Community Church in Kingsville, Maryland and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Steve Herford of East Fort Baptist Church in Jacksonville, Florida and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Roy Owens Jr. of the

Church in Friendship in Hockley, Texas and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew

Bibles tattered and falling apart? Consider restocking your pews with the NASB and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Go to nasbible .com. That's nasbible .com to place your order.

This is Pastor Bill Sousa of Grace Church at Franklin here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially. Grace Church at Franklin is an independent autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work of our

Lord Jesus Christ and of course the end of which we strive is the glory of God.

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our

Sovereign Lord God Savior and King Jesus Christ today and always.

If you love Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is by supporting our advertisers.

One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Arnton is doing is

Daniel P. Patafuco, serious injury lawyer and Christian apologist.

Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society. Their mission?

To foster belief in the credibility of Scripture as the written Word of God. They go to various churches, schools, and institutions to publicly display a rare collection of biblical texts along with a fascinating presentation by Mr.

Patafuco demonstrating the reliability of To advance the cause of the

Gospel, they created a beautiful, perfect facsimile of the genealogy of Jesus Christ from the original engravings contained in a first edition 1611

King James Bible. This 17th century hand -engraved chart shows the family tree of Jesus Christ going back to Adam and Eve.

This book is complete with gorgeous full -size illustrations of Noah's Ark and the

Tower of Babel and an explanation of why the genealogy of Jesus is so important for his claims to the throne of the universe.

Originals of this work are in museums and nobody has ever made it accessible to the public in a large book form before.

You can have your own copy of this 44 -page genealogy book for a donation of $35 or more.

Visit historicalbiblesociety .org. That's historicalbiblesociety .org.

Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on the air. Hi, this is

John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona. Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnzen and the

Iron Sharpen's Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the

Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray.

I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise and yet God has raised

Chris up for just such a time. And knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.

I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

Iron Sharpen's Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?

I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com

where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com. And what

I've discovered is that the majority of Christian parents have never been biblically equipped to do the work of the ministry in their homes.

That's why Truth Love Parent exists. We serve God by equipping dads and moms to be the ambassador parents

God called and created them to be. We produce free parenting resources, train church leaders, and offer biblical counseling so that the next generation of dads and moms can use the scriptures to parent their children for life and godliness.

Please visit us at truthloveparent .com. Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions, coffee shops, and local hangouts,

Long Island Youth for Christ staff and volunteers meet with young people who need Jesus. We are rural and urban and we are always about the message of Jesus.

Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island, New York by engaging young people in the lifelong journey of following Christ.

Long Island Youth for Christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959. We have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in need all over the country and around the world.

Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future. Volunteer, donate, pray, or all of the above.

For details, call Long Island Youth for Christ at 631 -385 -8333.

That's 631 -385 -8333. Or visit liyfc .org.

That's liyfc .org. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

If you've watched my Dividing Line webcast often enough, you know I have a great love for getting Bibles and other documents vital to my ministry rebound to preserve and ensure their longevity.

And besides that, they feel so good. I'm so delighted I discovered Post Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding.

No radio ad will be long enough to sing their praises sufficiently, but I'll give it a shot. Jeffrey Rice of Post Tenebrous Lux is a remarkably gifted craftsman and artisan.

All his work is done by hand from the cutting to the pleating of corners to the perimeter stitching.

Jeffrey uses the finest in buttery soft imported leathers in a wide variety of gorgeous colors, like the turquoise goatskin tanned in Italy used for my

Nessie Olin 28th edition with a navy blue goatskin inside liner and the electric blue goatskin from a

French tannery used to rebind a Reformation study Bible I used as a gift. The silver gilding he added on the page edges has a stunning mirror finish resembling highly polished chrome.

Jeffrey will customize your rebinding to your specifications and even emboss your logo into the leather, making whatever he rebinds a one -of -a -kind work of art.

For more details on Post Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding, go to ptlbiblerebinding .com.

That's ptlbiblerebinding .com. Satan is the father of lies and spin, and the mother of those lies is a government who has rejected

God. We have especially been lied to these last two years, and the COVID panic has been one of the central mechanisms that our government has used to lie to us and grab more power.

Because Christians have not been reading their Bibles, we are susceptible to lies and are weak in our ability to fight these lies.

God has given us his word to fight Satan and his lies, and we need to recover all of God's word, its serrated edge, and all.

Mark your calendars for October 6th through 8th as we fight, laugh, and feast to the glory of God in Knoxville, Tennessee.

You'll be enlightened, edified, encouraged, and challenged by 10 speakers on the theme,

Lies, Propaganda, Storytelling, and the Serrated Edge, covering various topics that address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Speakers include Pastor Doug Wilson of Christ Church of Moscow, Idaho, and the whole gang at the

Cross Politics Show and Podcast. For details, visit flfnetwork .com.

That's F for fight, L for laugh, F for feast, network .com.

See you there, October 6th through 8th in Knoxville, Tennessee. And don't forget folks, if you are a man in ministry leadership and you have not yet registered for the

Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio free pastor's luncheon featuring Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries on Thursday, September 22nd, 11 a .m.

to 2 p .m. at the Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania, please register now at chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put luncheon in the subject line.

Keep in mind everything is absolutely free, not only the admission but the food, the ability to hear in person,

Dr. James R. White, and you'll be leaving there with sacks, heavy sacks of free brand new books donated by generous publishers from all over the

United States and the United Kingdom. That's chrisarnson at gmail .com, put pastor's luncheon in the subject line.

And I know that Pastor Bill Shishko must remember one of the luncheons that I had that featured him as my speaker.

Indeed, I remember that with great joy, Chris. Yes, and I remember with great joy your participation in that.

Well, now let's get into more of the peculiar and specific challenges in Suffolk County, Long Island that not only a church plant but even

Christians in general face. Yeah, well, that's a good question. It's a massive question.

You don't find a lot of people signing up to do church planting in either

Nassau or Suffolk County, or for that matter, Metro New York. Yeah, well, all the things we discussed in the first hour certainly do apply regarding the media and the dumbing down of people.

Although, Long Islanders tend to be thoughtful and you can reason with them and so on.

Obviously, the pandemic affected things, but busyness. People comment one of the reasons why people want to get away from New York is its constant busyness.

And of course, entertainment is a big thing in our area, so we face that. But I think, Chris, it's interesting when you do demographic studies, and I really do believe pastors need to, their churches need to spend a little bit of money to find out a bit about the economic categories you're dealing with, professions, the different racial groups that are there, and percentages.

I mean, we are, as part of becoming all things to all people, that by all means, we might save some.

There's just no community. Long Island, Chris, has been called Bill in the lingo that these demographic studies use, and that really is it.

I forget whether it's Pleasantville or Pleasureville, but it's the same thing. People, I think because Long Islanders are so busy and it's so demanding, and you have, in order to live on Long Island, it's so expensive.

It's not unusual to have both the husband and the wife working outside the home, a man having two, even three jobs in order to make ends meet.

I mean, that's hardly desirable. So, when people get a break, they don't want to go to church.

They want to get out on a boat, or they want to go fishing, or they want to go swimming, or they just want to sit in their backyard and relax, or have a barbecue, or meals, or get time with family, and we really, really compete with that here on Long Island.

So, that's kind of it, plus the expense of living and ministering. Now, the thing is, and this is for anybody ministering in this area,

I use the illustration of termites on your steps. You know, the steps may look good, but the termites are at work within, and you come to a point, put your foot down, and you're going to go through the step.

All is not well in Pleasantville, Suffolk County, or Nassau County.

Number one, we have domestic, well, not necessarily in order of amount, but the things that come up.

Marriage issues. Marriages struggle because there's not a good foundation for the cases.

Or couples living together, they'll struggle with that because they don't have a foundation what marriage is, or parenting, and then parents don't know what it is to be parenting children.

Addiction issues here, whether it be substance abuse, drugs, alcohol, whether it be addiction to pornography, whether it be addiction to gambling.

I mean, New York is one of the few states in the union that boasts in opening up gambling while they spend a fortune reminding you not to become addicted to gambling, or the same thing with marijuana.

So, and that's why, Chris, for the Haven, and I think any other church ministry that's going to make an impact in this gospel -needy area, not only preaching that connects with people, but biblical counseling is crucial when you deal with people.

And in a real sense, preaching is biblical counseling. It's just done in a different way.

So those, I would say those are the main challenges on Long Island.

People tend to be kind of closed. They don't, their fences are common here.

Porches are not common. We've tried to make it a point to get to know our neighbors and our neighborhood, but a lot of areas are pretty closed.

But hospitality is really important. Get people into your home.

They need to see the supernatural, that the gospel is worked out naturally in your homes.

So I could go on and on, but I think those are the main ones. We do have a listener, a Christian in western

Suffolk County, Long Island. Perhaps Christian will pay a visit to your congregation. Christian says, the frustration that I have personally experienced being part of a church plant work is that people tend to be very impatient with a small work.

They tend to be impatient that there is not a lot of programs and activities for children and wind up leaving for the bigger churches, even if the churches are opposed to their own theological convictions.

How do you work with this kind of environment? Yeah, boy, that is a great question from Christian, and we have faced that.

I think all church plants do, because they don't have all the amenities that the big churches do, and we live in a consumerist mentality.

And you're right, that people will abandon their theological convictions because of programs the churches offer.

That's not good. At the same time, you've got parents who are concerned. They don't want to lose their children.

Their children can get turned off by if a church is kind of being grown and so on.

So I get the dynamics, and I don't know. I'd love to meet Christian, since he's in western

Suffolk County. I hope he will join us at the Haven, which is 16 Oak Lawn Drive in Comerack, New York.

I hope he'll join us this Sunday at 10. But okay, how do you deal with it? I think number one,

I really think that regional churches, regionally as I mentioned before, need to be working more closely together to do churches that are aligned theologically, even though they may differ on certain points.

We differ, obviously, as you know, with our Calvinistic Baptist brothers and sisters on baptism, but our beliefs about the gospel are the same.

And so where there's a commitment to the gospel, in my opinion, you work wherever you can, and one is to have activities and gatherings for young people where they can come and do the kinds of things we discussed a little bit earlier in the hour.

And so I think a local church, you admit, we don't have the resources, let's work with people who can help us.

I think that's one. Number two is to try to tap the musical skills of others, even if you have to pay for some assistance to do this, musical skills of others who can help you with developing a music program that appeals to young people, that relates to young people.

One of our ministers, or actually one of our men connected with our Trinity Church in Syosset is doing these things,

I don't know why I call them tea groups, but they meet, I think, once a month, they have a meal, they have music that actually some of the young people from Trinity Church have come up with, and it's good stuff, it is not junk, and it's a very open opportunity for young people to fellowship and meet.

So I think for Christian, those would be just a couple of the things that could be done, and meanwhile praying that God give you the, give families, we're doing, we're praying for that, that God give families with a mission mindset, and they're willing to help out working with those situations.

In fact, that's something y 'all can pray for for us. We're praying that God give us families with young children.

We have about four young children. We'll do a lot more so that we can develop our Christian ed program there, but I commend

Christian on that very good question. We have an anonymous listener who says,

I have never been satisfied with the answers I receive from leadership in my own congregation about weekly observance of the

Lord's Supper. I personally believe in it, wish that we did it, and I hear reasons such as we want the

Lord's Supper to remain very special and not become commonplace. My response has been, why don't we meet for worship services once a month then if that's really what you believe?

How do you respond to leaders in grace and politeness and realizing they are my leaders about something like this?

Yeah, again, a great question, and we incidentally are passionate believers in the

Lord's Supper weekly. In fact, our appreciation of the Lord's Supper as really was the climax of our worship service is something our folks cherish.

In fact, it's the more...now, yeah, your leadership is important at the Supper. It's not a formalistic thing, but when you realize

Jesus kisses you with kisses of his mouth in the Lord's Supper, there's that physicality.

You know, the old Scottish theologian Robert Bruce, whose work on the Lord's Supper was classic.

He said, you don't get a better Christ in the Lord's Supper, but you get Christ better because it's a very physical thing.

Anyway, I think your listener's response is absolutely right.

Using that line of argument, why not just preach once a month so it becomes more special? Why not just worship once a month because it becomes more special?

So that's the line I like to use with this. You know, if I kissed my wife once a month just so I keep the kiss special,

I might end my marriage. Marriage counseling.

You know, you want that kind of physical connection with the one you love, and Jesus is our bridegroom, and so we do use the, you know, let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth.

I think sometimes, Chris, and it isn't maybe for another program. Marty, you know me, Marty, I'd love to do a program with you about the regulative principle in worship.

It's not stifling, it's liberating when you realize it's the Word of God, the whole

Word of God that guides you in worship, and you do what God commands. But the other would be the beauties of the

Lord's Supper, because it is Christ physically, by the

Holy Spirit, feeding you, and we need that.

It's a sacrament of assurance. Now, some churches or themselves, you feel like you're in a funeral home when you come to the

Lord's Supper, and if you're not going through these extensive, introspective things where you've got to feel your sin in particular ways, well, look at that kind of a thing, and it gets pretty morose.

We have self -examination, certainly, but you come to Christ in the Lord's Supper when there's that kind of joy that accompanies the

Supper, along with self -examination and reverence. There's a desire for people. So anyway, I commend your list.

I should let you know the church number at the Haven, and so people can call there.

We're right now, we're kind of in and out of there because we're not actually fully in the facility yet, but someone will get back to you.

The church number is 631 -381 -6453, and that's the

Haven at Comac, 631 -381 -6453. Your listeners are very welcome to call.

One of us will get back, probably me, with an answer to their question, but those are good questions,

Chris. They're testimonies to the depth of your listenership. Another anonymous listener says,

I have noticed that churches that move to a weekly observance of the Lord's Supper very often, if not most often, adopt using fermented wine in the

Supper. Do you do that, and do you think this poses any threat to those who have alcoholic problems?

Yeah, yeah, again, a very, very thoughtful question. I'll give you a quick story here with that.

Yeah, we have both wine and juice at the Lord's Supper. We do have some people who have come, they've been converted out of backgrounds where they were in bondage to alcohol, and we don't want to do anything that would tempt them, so we use goblets.

We have people come forward to get the elements for the Supper, and so they take the juice or the wine, although I am a strong believer in the use of wine in the

Lord's Supper in Franklin Square. For years, it was just grape juice, and I finally, you know, after being there, you know me,

Chris, I can kind of be a bull in a china shop, a little bit more mellow in the way

I do it, but finally, after about 15 years in Franklin Square, I said, hey fellas, I'm going to change our forms where we speak about wine in the

Lord's Supper, and I read our standards. Instead of saying wine, I'm just going to say grape juice, and I looked at one of them, and I said, you can't do that.

You can't change those standards if it says wine, and I said, well, why, if the standard says wine, if I can't change that, why do we use grape juice?

And I kind of looked at one another, and said, yeah, why do we use grape juice?

I said, it's because of the lordship of the Women's Christian Temperance Union, and so we went to the pattern of having wine plus the, also with an outer ring, we use smaller cups than a grape juice, but yeah, you've got to accommodate that.

We actually had a woman in Franklin Square, she couldn't have any juice because of her high allergies, so we actually had a cup of water for her to use, so you know, you adapt.

Again, you become all things to all people, but by all means, you might save some. Please, though,

I just urge your listeners, please do not use the absolutely inane argument that the wine in the first century was unfermented.

That, I'm sorry, that is a very ignorant argument. In fact, wine, grapes, actually have the dust on them.

They have the element that causes them to begin to ferment as soon as they pop open, so that's nothing to do with Aiden, really.

Well, as you know, I had a very serious problem with alcohol, and you were such a godly guide to me amongst my other actual pastors, to get me out of that situation by God's mercy, but I can tell our listeners that I have had the

Lord's Supper. As a teetotaler now, I have had the Lord's Supper where they use fermented wine in that very tiny amount, never did anything to trigger anything in my mind, or in my desires, or my lust to have more wine or alcohol.

It didn't do anything like that, and I believe that is obviously because of the very tiny amount, and also,

I think it involves the mental things that are applied to the reason you're drinking it.

I think there's a lot to do with actually being in a place where you're intending to get intoxicated, and you're surrounded by people who are intoxicated, that triggers a different thing in your attitude.

But anyway, if you could, just let our listeners know, once again, how they can get a hold of you.

Sure. Yeah, you can call The Haven at COMAC 631 -381 -6453.

The location is 16 Oak Lawn Drive in COMAC, New York. It's 11725, zip code.

And this Sunday, September 11th, 10 o 'clock in the morning, our Inaugural Worship Service. We'd love to have your listeners there.

And then on October 2nd, that Lord's Day, we have an open house. We have both of those days, we have picnics in the afternoon, and we'd love to have your listeners in that area come, and I'd love to be able to minister to them.

Again, it's The Haven at Deer Park. Amen. Oh, so that's a new...

Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you were giving a website. I'm sorry, it's The Haven at COMAC. The Haven at Deer Park's our name, not

The Haven at COMAC. Oh yeah, the... Thehavenli .com

is your website. Right, thehavenli .com. That's our website, because we're envisioning other havens.

We're already thinking about mission churches farther out east, but that's for another program. And by the way, speaking of another program, you should be delighted to know that a dear friend of yours,

Joey Paipa, is my guest tomorrow on Iron Sharpens Iron. Ah, excellent! He is a dear friend and a very dear brother in Christ.

In fact, the very first time I met him was when he was speaking at the Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Franklin Square.

Will you give my dear brother... Well, you can't give him a hug, because you're at a distance, but give him my Christian love.

Chris, thank you so much for the opportunity to promote The Haven at COMAC on your program.

Amen, and I want to thank you for being such a great guest. I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write.

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.

Amen, amen. I love that, Chris. Me too, brother.