Episode 2: Missions and the Local Church Part 1

The Rural Church Podcast 2 .0. Just a couple of pastors discussing life ministry theology and the gospel from a local church perspective.

Eddie.

What's it time for?

Podcast Setup and Guests

Rural Church Podcast 2. .0. What's up, Eddie? Episode 2. Hey, it's exciting to be here in the Gunnar Madewell Camp that's what I say. We're joined by a few friends tonight and Gunnar and So we just want to introduce them.

We're we're yeah, we're in a camper like Like James White. We're trying to do a Podcast mobile unit. Yeah, so we're at a conference. Held at our church prairieville second Baptist Church, and I've got to my left here Jonathan Murdoch.

Jonathan's a pastor of Trinity Baptist Church in Port Arthur, Texas. And What else should I say Jonathan.

I don't know. It's the armpit of Texas.

West Brown pastor of Plumerville. Is it first Baptist or just Plumerville first Baptist? Yeah, first Baptist Plumerville West Brown. He's in our local association and then a church member at prairieville second Baptist Church.

Gunnar. What else do I say about you Gunnar G man? There's not enough paper. This is a.

This is actually recorded.

People will listen to this. Gunnar needs paper. Yeah, all right, and then we got Eddie so. We're excited to be in beautiful Prairieville, Arkansas. You sound real excited. I'm just I have excited and see it on your face.

Ecclesiology, Hebrews 13, and the Church as Christ's Kingdom

So we tonight we just finished listening to a message that Jonathan preached. Jonathan's up here preaching a missions conference. And we've just been trying to wrestle in our own church. We talked about this last episode.

We talked about it in our own church and and in Eddie's church is already kind of a little further along than ours. Wrestling with how we should associate with the Southern Baptist Convention. And so Jonathan has come up here and just been preaching.

About the glory and beauty of the church last night and then tonight just talking about. Because this is what the church is then this is how we ought to respond To God in reverence and in awe. And so he walked through Hebrews 13 with us.

And what do you guys what do you guys think about the message tonight? Not Jonathan? You don't get to speak yet. West what you think? I thought it was powerful. We can't.

Outsource our missions and call it missions. We can't just send money somewhere and say that we're actually fulfilling all that we're called to as a church in.

Hebrews 13 you don't have to use euphemisms on here when you say Outsource you're talking about. You can't just write a check to the cooperative program and say that's our missions, right?

Yeah, yeah, it's good brother. Yeah. Yeah, I was encouraged that. We actually get to come and worship together and it's a it's a gift from the Lord. I was really encouraged that. It just deepened my love for the local church, honestly, and it made me not want to ever miss a Sunday.

Hmm any and.

Jonathan I would say I didn't get a chance to your sermon yet from last night. I will go back and hear it when it's posted, but just hearing the sermon from tonight your love for the local church was evident, especially in that passage from Hebrews 13 and and Even the background that you gave from Hebrews 12, so I'd like to just ask for you to kind of share with us the way you view the connection between a right and biblical ecclesiology and Our view of missions and reaching the world and your two points about missions.

The Local Church, Missions, and the Extension of Christ's Rule

Yeah, so.

When we think about.

The local church. We have to have a right ecclesiology and we have to see the church as the work that the Lord is doing. The church is the kingdom of God and If we think less of the church, then we think of the church as a means to another end.

But the church is What Jesus is going to present to the Father? Amen, that's right. And so the church isn't a means to an end. It is what God's doing, right? It is it is The body of Christ and so when we when we see the church like that then we see a church victorious and we see a church that is the extension of the rule in the reign of Christ in this world when we see the church as That rule and reign just like in Psalm 2 the nation's rage and people plot in vain but i've set my son on zion's mountain on zion's hill and and Ask and i'll give you the nations and you'll break them into pieces rod of iron.

The church is doing that. And and so if we see the church as that and as doing that.

Then.

We ought to declare his name Everywhere. And have a mentality like I mentioned last night of christian imperialism not in the theonomistic idea of Christianizing the nation but of declaring the name of jesus everywhere.

In in all the world right and and we should see the power of the local church to do that. That we don't we don't need some organization. So that we can be equipped to do that. Jesus christ has equipped his church.

You know, I think it's funny. Uh, brother. Allen submitted a resolution. To the the resolutions committee on the importance of the in the purity of the pulpit. They said well, this is too big. I mean, we can't we can't hold these guys to that.

We can't we can't do that. It's the very means that god has gifted to the church for the extension of his rule and reign in the church. So if you look at ephesians, he has given to the church a pastor teacher for the equipping of the body so that she's built up in the mature image of christ.

And so it's from the pulpit that he's given that. And that is the means by which his rule and his extension is going to extend itself. But but now it's like we need to meet at starbucks and have a discipleship group, right?

And and I think it's a problem, right? Because and it starts with our ecclesiology all of it goes back to our ecclesiology. Yeah, and and then. The two things in missions the church is called to train pastors.

And to plant and reform churches. That is that is the call you look at acts. That's what they're doing. You look at the epistles to the new testament. That's what it's doing. Paul, right to timothy trained pastors.

He writes to the churches to reform the churches and you look at the book of acts. He's planting churches that is. The idea of missions in the new testament and that's what every church should be doing.

And sending a check to the cooperative program is not doing that, right?

Right. Yeah, and I think what's happened is we've lost the vision that the churches Are the ones that should be planning and reforming churches. And training pastor right and training pastors, right. Seminaries can train the pastors the uh, missions organizations or the missions entities or.

Whether or not it's sbc. I mean even outside the sbc and other other ecclesiastical bodies. The idea is well, those people are the experts instead of thinking no the local church is. The is the body that christ is going to use to build.

As a matter of fact, we may even think of it in terms of. We ought to have the same view of the kind of churches. We would want to plant as the kind of church that we want to be. And I think a lot of times we've said well we want to be this kind of church.

And if the churches that are planted somewhere else are different. And I don't mean different in terms of culture of course they're going to be but I mean different in terms of theology or different in terms of of uh, their view of how the church ought to.

Function. Biblically we've kind of been okay with that because it's far off and it's somewhere else. When maybe we should have been holding the churches on the mission. To the same kind of standards of maturity that we would that we would expect of our own local church.

We definitely should right.

Definitely. Amen.

"Better Together," the Southern Baptist Convention, and Genesis 11

Wes way in here. This is a little bit Unfair because jonathan and I talked about this, but you don't know the question i'm about to ask you. But in the sbc we hear this big. Um rallying cry. That we're better together.

I think there's some truth to that. I think there's there's some biblical principles to that right church is working together. But I think I think unfortunately today it's wrongly applied in the southern baptist convention.

So would you just maybe in light of what we've been talking about weigh in on that again? I know it's late and I asked you in this question, but like how is better together? How is that a good and righteous thing?

How how is it also misapplied with some of this stuff in the southern baptist convention? I think it's a good and righteous thing.

Uh if you wind up A member of westborough baptist church or some church in the middle of nowhere who thinks that they're the only people who are going to heaven. And you're the only ones who've gotten it, right?

And you don't need to partner with anyone else because everyone else is going to hell. Uh, You've strayed. I I don't think that that's the the pit that most people are going to fall in in this day and age.

Uh better together is true. There's a there's a brotherhood, you know, there's a we are. The family that god god has adopted his we're children his children that he's adopted and so I can meet someone from a another nation.

I can meet someone for the first time and through our adoption and through being related not by Physical our physical blood that's in our veins, but being related through the blood of christ. There is fellowship and we can work together, but it's not true Necessarily that we're better together.

That has to be qualified and it sounds to me I I haven't I haven't heard that rallying cry but uh.

It sounds like you're a baptist dude.

Not long enough to not.

I uh, you need to do a couple more years.

Um that sounds to me like trust in man and trust in numbers. Which I know southern baptists never do.

Ha ha ha.

But it sounds like.

Uh.

We're going to trust in the number of people that we have or the amount of money that we have or the amount of Organization that we have and that way we're. We're better together. Like it's better for two companies.

Uh quit competing with one another incorporate and you know in that way better together and that's. That's not healthy.

You know, just like we talked about this morning better together. Yeah. That has become the cry the battle cry for the left wing of the southern basque convention. The whole of the southern basque convention and.

What they mean? is for instance, there's a there's a uh, some writings around the writing of the second london confession. And they they lay out some of what they're talking about. And in the second london confession in chapter 26 Paragraph 15 it talks about coming in association coming together for the purpose of addressing problems in churches.

Well, then there's some writing Outside of that confession talking about what they really meant. And what they were saying is if a brother needs help to learn greek And he can't afford the books like churches should come together and help him buy the book.

So he'd be better equipped to serve his people. Or if one church can't pay him enough. Man, maybe a couple churches get together and help him out a little bit so he can rightly serve the lord. So what.

What the early baptist meant by coming together in association.

Was.

So that a man would be better equipped in the pulpit to equip the people.

But what.

What the southern basque convention means is we're better together. You give us your money. So we can give million dollar retirement plans to people. You give us your money so we can pay this guy 110 thousand dollars.

Like like we can't pay the big executives if you don't bring in your money, so we're better together. We can do all this stuff together. But that wasn't the intent. The intent was to grow the church that that we can equip one another.

In the word of god in in the bible. There is a there's a rallying cry for better together. It's in genesis 11 actually and uh. That's what they said that they were better together. And god was not pleased with that.

Small-Church Participation in Missions and the Local Church as the Mission Field

So this is a real church podcast and we are. We we want to talk about. You know ecclesiology ecclesiology and missions. It's easy to say. Okay john mccutcher's church. Yeah, they don't need a okay. Yeah, they should be involved in missions.

Okay. They'll probably have missionaries on Staff or whatever payroll is what I mean. Gunner's here tonight. He's a lay lay person in our church and a good brother, but you think about that like how he's a Electrician you work how many hours a week you work?

Okay, at least 40. Yeah, 40 or more. You've got a family. You got four kids. How does how does a church member? Like gunner madewill practically i'm asking this to you. Jonathan and then gunner feel free to respond after he says but How does a man like gunner madewill practically?

Without the cooperative program. How does this man involve himself?

In the mission of the church, I I think I think that's The heart of what we're talking about. He's involved in the local church Amen, so we've bought into a false false dichotomy that he can only be involved in missions.

Through an organization that provides opportunity for missions and it's not it shouldn't be the organization that does missions. That's the problem. It should be the local church that does missions. So the local church should be the place where it happens.

And he's a member of the church, so he should be involved in what's going on at the church. But we've bought into a false idea. There's no way the local church can do that. So we gotta outsource that.

That's wrong. Yeah. Well and also I think I mean, I don't I don't I'm not going to speak on anyone specifically but like There's so many people and I think in our church that are like We're not gonna stop.

We don't want to stop giving money away from the cooperative program because we're that we've done so good. And there's so many good things and the missionaries need that money. Well, I haven't seen them Share the gospel.

Well, are they evangelizing so they want to talk about? Being mission. Supporting these missionaries and doing all this for the kingdom. And we aren't even doing missions.

So.

Well, and I think there's a culture shift. I think part of that is because of the the mindset of missions is given to the cooperative program. I think we'll all agree here. I think everyone will agree here.

Feel free to disagree. We're not saying that every Imb missionary every nam missionary every. Every single thing the spc is doing we're not saying every single thing is bad. Like there are some good things and we're grateful for that.

But we're just saying like a couple problems like one is just the mindset of missions. That's really kind of what we're talking about tonight. Kind of just the whole mindset of missions on top of that and eddie and I kind of addressed this last time.

So we don't have to hit on that but there's also some major problems where our money's going. So that's a huge issue. We were just kind of talking about the mindset. You know the whole mindset. Let me give an example.

I know a church that for years supported imb missionary. He was in a uh difficult part of the world dangerous place to plant a church. And his sending church is a very small church. And they sent they tried to send him more money than they sent to the imb.

And so they sent very minimal to imb. He comes back on furlough.

And.

The pastor of that church asked Can you come and share? With the church, you know, we've been praying for you being given to you and the imb. Would not let him go there for a sunday to talk while on furlough because they didn't give it.

They weren't big enough. What. And so he's a missionary sent out from that church. And he only had enough sundays off To go to like his home And visit a couple family members. And so he didn't have a chance to come to his home church.

And and it's like that's where he should have been first like that should have been his first stop. Is his home church because he was sent out by them. But the imb treats it like no, no you're sent out by the imb.

You're not sent out from the local church.

I know another way i've been blessed because my heart is really to get men in the local church living according to their calling on on mission according to the mission of the local church.

And.

Jonathan did an excellent job exalting the calling of the local church and Showing what a high calling it is. And I think the degradation of that has caused men to become uninvolved and then churches to then try and reinvent things.

To get men to be involved. And so instead of exalting the church's mission that we're on Well, we invent positions like, you know lead greeter or you know This position or that position to try to get men to feel like they have some sort of ownership or there's some sort of importance.

And.

Instead of just going according to the bible and showing what a high calling it is and what a high bar and what and.

How powerfully god uses it. So there's two like there's two main problems with with equating missions with.

Um.

Equating missions with just sending a check. Two problems. One is you create laziness with some people, you know, they're just lazy. They're not going to do. I think gunner's kind of trying to hit on that.

Some maybe some are just lazy. I like I here's how I do missions. I I give to ladi moon and then and then another thing is you create a crippling effect like.

I don't.

You got other people like I want to do missions. I don't know how I guess this is what missions is. Okay. This is what I'm going to do. They're not lazy. They're just not trained. They just don't understand.

Hebrews 13, Local Church Worship, and the High Calling of Pastors

So what I want, you know real quick jonathan um, maybe walk through those six, you know thoughts from the local church there that hebrews 13 says and Obviously hard for it. Let me let me put this way.

Let everyone should listen to the whole sermon. It's on uh, it's on perryville. Sbc .org. And I think it's also going to be um on your sermon Trinity baptist church seminar. So it'll be up there soon.

It's a port arthur. Yeah, listen to the whole thing, but just Rewalk us through hebrews 13. Yeah.

So the call there is that we would offer to god worship because we're receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken. And the way we do that is in brotherly love.

And.

Being hospitable being compassionate one to another by keeping the marriage bed undefiled by being content with what we've been given and by Looking at the faith of the pastor and imitating his faith.

And so you have this call to worship that everybody likes and the warning our gods are consuming fire. But then the application of that is in the local church. You cannot separate those two and and so what we've created in our society is.

You go to your church and you'd be part of your church. But this organization and this entity is above that in statute. And and so it's better it's bigger. And and then I mean even little things like small things like missionaries going to training in for the imb flying on sundays.

So they can be there on monday ready to go. And and so it's just such a low view of the local church just saying we're going to equip you for this. You don't need to listen to your pastor preach on sunday.

So we're going to send you to fly out on sunday morning to the professionals to the professionals. Yeah, that's wrong. That's a false idea. So the pastor is the one who ought to preach so but that's a that's a whole nother thing the missionaries.

That ought to be sent out ought to be church planters. Equipment to plant churches because there's only.

So that's you talk about church planters in front and then also doing friendship evangelism. You mean like, uh making.

No, no, i'm exactly not saying like i'm saying the exact opposite. Okay, so what I was saying is We've created all these missional positions that are false. And and it's no the only missionaries. So this is this is radical idea.

No, the only like get rid of the backpack missionaries now That has to end. And the only missionaries Are men who are biblically called and qualified according to the word of god for the purpose of planting a church.

That's it.

Yeah, no one else gets to go. Yeah, amen. Eddie hadn't talked to him. I'll ask you this question. I could not help when he's preaching. I could not help but thinking. I want I want you to ask. The. I want you to think about the significance of this, but he gave through those those six points.

Okay, the last three points are this marriage love of money and pastors. Faithful pastor. I I was struck by how the spc as a whole Is failing? In biblical manhood and womanhood marriage. And even partnering with you know, the fbc orlando lgbtq stuff.

Love of money. You're kidding me. And then not understand what a pastor is in fact, so any significance there with with that.

Yeah, I think I mean when you look at the qualifications both that paul writes to timothy and titus about. We see those very things reflected in those qualifications.

So.

Men that are qualified as as elders and therefore be qualified as missionaries qualified to be planting churches. And training other pastors right to lead in those churches um are men that have their home has to be Uh has to be taken care of if you can't take care of your own home.

You're not qualified to take care of the household of god. They have to be men that are content. Content, you know you were speaking of that earlier jonathan when we were when we were talking in the house.

But just dealing with men that are content whether they whether they have plenty or they're in hunger They're able to still live righteously and be Really give glory to god in the way that they live faithfully before him.

And.

And you know what? It really comes down to is churches and christians being willing to submit and to imitate their leaders. And honestly. So many men Have been put into pastoral positions because they were good speakers.

Yeah, and there's nobody that wants to follow and imitate their lives.

They're unqualified and some are I won't put a percentage unconverted.

Yeah, baxter's great quote. You know that many men who warned others not to go to hell are there themselves now. Yeah.

Practical Steps for Churches Reconsidering the Cooperative Program

Yeah, let me ask you something real practical about so. Let's say there's churches listening to this and they're like, yes. Amen. I agree. They're they're amen and right now all these things and they're wrestling because let's just be honest, you know.

And we talked about this last episode anaheim was hard. It's hard. Nashville was hard. Anaheim was hard and there's and there's I got a a dear friend. Uh shout out. Um, uh to ted in, uh, west pueblo Colorado his church.

He he posted that they're leaving southern babs convention. So there's guys out there like ted there's churches around like okay. Yes. We agree all this. There's churches like mine that are saying okay, we're not going to give the cooperative program anymore.

Okay, but now what is the next step for these churches? No matter their size to be faithful in in the mission like okay. What do they do next? Okay.

So I think first you have to realize that. What? The mindset that was given because the spc entity Hasn't has been an attack on the church of jesus christ. So that mindset has attacked the foundational.

Um.

Function of the local church. So the first thing that a church has to do is realize that. And they have to take a step back and they have to heal. You've got to get rid of the mindset. So many guys right now are going to be looking for the next thing they can get involved in.

Just to supplement to replace to replace it. You can't do that. You have to stake take a step back and you have to realize we have to completely restructure and and Rethink how we've thought of missions and then you can be involved.

Does that make sense?

Sure, but let me ask you this. I know it makes 100. What advice would you give the pastors and churches that are stepping back and rethinking what? Resources like like where it's like, okay. I want to.

I want to step back. I want to think through this. Is there. Do you have some help for me in thinking through this? Yeah, I think so. So.

One.

Uh, these conversations are helpful, right? Number two. The lord is really really Doing a work in our church and in south america. I don't think everybody needs to jump on the bandwagon and join us. But I think it can be a model.

And I would love for guys to see this and say Look, this is what we're doing. This is how we're doing it. Yeah, I think is I think it would be a good resource For guys to see that worked out. So, how are you guys doing?

So we we um.

Are.

Training pastors planting churches in latin america through zoom calls and conferences. Personal contact personal relationship with these guys. They're native brothers. And and we've been doing that for about a year and a half now.

Accountability, Local Church Authority, and the Closing Appeal

Formally, this question's for wes because he's on his phone.

Y 'all probably heard my kids going by. Yeah, she's still sitting out there. Trying to figure out how to get out of the backyard.

Oh so.

I was trying to give her some instructions. All right.

Did you hear what johnson said. Because when I asked you what you thought about it? Yes.

I I did and I as someone. Walking through this. And and maybe this won't be helpful at all. But like when I look at the roots. Because you're talking about, you know, don't just jump in somewhere else, you know, let's take time.

Like when we read the history we go back to william carey and he says i'm gonna go to india. I'll go i'll go in the cave you hold the rope. I think we all read that and think okay, that's. That's good stuff, right?

And now that may be apocryphal. I don't know but you know. That's where they trace the roots of. The idea of uh doing missions in that way. And so if that is a is a pure thing. That that happened in william carey.

And we're now to the point where we're saying, okay. The cooperative program and being involved in this way is an attack on the church of jesus christ if if if if we cut off that. How do we then work back and figure out okay, where did we go wrong or or where do we where do we jump in where?

It's not going to. Be that or end up that.

Those are good questions.

I think.

Number one where the cooperative program when heirs tried to Be big, I mean they boast of being the largest missionary sending entity in the world. And and there's a sense where that's good. You know, there's sense where.

Many men have heard the gospel because of the imb and corporate program giving. However, it stopped being local church based long ago.

And.

Carey was sent from local churches. And was accountable to local churches and and so I.

Accountability. Yes. Yeah, that's great.

And so I think I think you know the accountability of the missionaries in imb are accountable to imb. And not the local churches. That's a problem. And so when I when I say we have to step back and relearn the local church before we can get involved in missions.

If you don't You're going to reinvent the whole thing. So unless we see the local church as the authority and that there's no Authority over the local church other than christ jesus and the only rule of faith and practice for the church is the word of god.

Unless we start there.

We reinvent the whole thing so I always say like Because i'm just trying to be real real practical and real like tangible people grab hold of some of this because some people say well Yeah, yeah. No, no I affirm, you know spc we affirm that there's no authority over the local church.

But what I want to say and you said this last night too is like Some of these entity leaders and some of the people on the platform and and things like that.

They're actually mocking the local church. It's what their life is about. Yeah.

Yeah, so it may be like on paper. We're not above you.

But it sure feels like that. I mean practical wasn't. Russell moore in the supreme court said this is a top-down organization. Yeah, because it is. Yeah, they know.

All right, that's it for this part of the gunner madewell camper episode. Join us next time as we continue talking about the spc the local church And missions on the rural church podcast.