Chris Gordon Interview (Narrative Preaching)

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Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry coming to you from Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston.

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No Compromise Radio is a program dedicated to the ongoing proclamation of Jesus Christ, based on the theme in Galatians 2, verse 5, where the

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Apostle Paul said, But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.

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In short, if you like smooth, watered -down words to make you simply feel good, this show isn't for you.

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By purpose, we are first biblical, but we can also be controversial. Stay tuned for the next 25 minutes as we're called by the divine trumpet to summon the troops for the honor and glory of her

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King. Here's our host, Pastor Mike Abendroth. Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry.

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My name is Mike Abendroth, and I think we're coming up on maybe show 2300 or something like that, and we regularly receive your emails.

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You have questions about churches. You have questions about doctrine, questions about philosophy of ministry, and a regular question

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I receive here at NOCO Radio is, Mike, what's on your podcast? What do you listen to?

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And I probably have some secular shows on there, but the show that I like to listen to the most, or I've been listening to the most especially, is

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Abounding Grace Radio. And my problem is I listen to that pastor who preaches on that at 1 .5

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speed, and so I thought I'd do something different today, is have that pastor, Chris Gordon, on live at 1 .0

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speed. Pastor Gordon, thank you for coming on NOCO Radio. Hey, Mike, always a privilege, glad to be with you.

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Well, and I don't say this because I want you to thank me, but I'm in New Zealand, and I was listening to your show as I would bicycle, and then the pastors there asked me, who should we listen to?

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And I said, you ought to listen to Chris Gordon, even though his church starts with a U. That's never a good thing.

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Well, when I had younger kids, I'd always tell them, when we drive by churches here in New England, that's

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Unitarian. What does that mean? Well, it's not a trinity, it's they deny the deity of Christ, and oh, universalism, everybody goes to heaven.

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And so I said, you know, maybe there's a town that starts with U, but in general, just be aware of churches that start with U.

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And then I remembered my friend Chris Gordon. Well, I think I remember last time you asking me that, and I said, you know, it's just as awkward when people ask, what is your church name, you have to say it starts with a

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U. I try to think of other ways sometimes, because I have all the baggage that comes with that.

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Well, Chris, thanks for being back on the show, Abounding Grace Radio, it's agradio .org, and one of the things that I appreciate about your ministry is how you preach narrative texts, and I thought today we'd talk a little bit about preaching narratives, and we've got a lot of people who listen who are clergy and pastors and Bible teachers, but some aren't.

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And so maybe, Chris, at a high -view level, you could tell our listeners how you approach the study of a narrative so that they could learn from how you study it, because out of all the people

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I know who preach narratives, I think you do it very, very well. Epistles are one thing, you know, and most people know how to do those, but give us, what is a narrative, and what's the approach to preaching pitfalls, things that you do to help our listeners?

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Right. Well, I have been told before by some of my own people that they'd rather I preach the narrative than Paul, because I don't do very well with Paul.

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So epistles are a little more challenging. I love the story. I just think

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God gave us these wonderful stories, they're all over the Bible, and they really help people.

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They engage people's minds, people are able to hold well with the story. If you have the ability to communicate that story in such a way that the

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Scripture's intention is clear, people will just love it. They will respond to God's Word that way.

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At least that's been my experience. They want to understand God's Word, and the Lord's given us these wonderful stories, so it builds a bridge right into their life and world, and helps us to understand the

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Gospel in a way that they can relate to. So I've always been a fan of narrative preaching.

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I really think early on in the ministry, I was struggling to find myself sort of as a preacher, how best to preach, and I remember

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Bob Godfrey making a statement that young pastors should preach more of the

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Gospels and the narratives and the stories, and that would be a great help to them.

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And I always took that advice to heart, and I really felt that when I went through the book of Genesis in Lyndon, that was my first charge up in Lyndon, Washington at the

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United Reformed Church there, I went through Genesis and I could see, and I really kind of experienced in the life of the congregation, people awakening to the

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Gospels through the narrative stories. I mean, Genesis is just showing the messiness of the lives of the patriarchs, and then

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God's grace to them, superabounding, giving them help and pointing them to Christ and doing everything necessary to teach us, really, as we read these stories about the

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Gospel of our salvation. I really saw the congregation sort of become alive through that, and I really found my way as a preacher through telling the stories.

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So I really enjoy narrative preaching and something that I'm a big fan of. Now, that's not to say that I don't preach other genres and have to be faithful at that and balanced with that, but at any given time, if you ask me what do

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I want to preach, it'll be some story, usually out of the Old Testament. I just finished David and Goliath and had the time of my life preaching that narrative.

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Now, my son listens and appreciates your radio show as well. Did you have any good reactions when it comes to the

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David and Goliath story in particular? I think many of our listeners would understand the fact that, you know, this is not the

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Goliaths in your life, etc., etc., and trying to spiritualize it or make it an allegory. What was the response that you received from your section there in the account of David and Goliath?

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Well, it is kind of an interesting question because a lot of people come with presuppositions to the text, and you know, here in the last hundred years in American evangelicalism, that has been the sort of dominant, you know, hermeneutic when they look at David and Goliath, and you're kind of coming in and immediately sort of bursting everyone's bubble, right?

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It's a little bit shocking, and sometimes the people probably comes off a little arrogant. Well, you know, why is everyone else applying it as this is the

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Goliath in your life? You need to fight and take down, and here you come in with this entire different approach.

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So yeah, in one way that makes me, I guess

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I'm a little fearful of that. I don't say fearful. I get humbled by it and reserved because I don't want to be causing problems for people, but at the same time, our fidelity to God's Word and how it is inspired and what

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He gave, what is the intention of the Holy Spirit in a given text, that has to be our predominant concern.

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So, you know, how was it received? I think the people generally really loved it because they saw their

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Savior, but it did take a little bit of work to tear down what has been done to that passage, how it's been cheapened and really put the strength back to us to fight the battle, when in the middle of that text,

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David says very clearly, the battle belongs to the Lord. So there's the thesis right there.

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So I think it was received quite well, to answer your question. Well, Chris, one of the things I appreciate about you and your teaching style is what you just did a second ago, and that is, you know, you'll teach very with fidelity and faithfulness, and then you'll come across with that kind of little laugh and that you'll ask a good question, and just the style of it kind of disarms, and so I appreciate that.

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So I'm just even listening to you smile and laugh now. I can't listen to you smile, but I assume you're smiling when you're laughing.

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You do have to disarm. I think I'm sure you experienced this as a pastor. You know,

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Lloyd -Jones in his Preachers and Preaching book talked about the use of humor and to be careful with it, but there is a use to disarm people, especially in our day with the way that we look at texts and how we're approaching them and making them the gospel.

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You know, as long as they don't feel that you're coming at them angrily or pounding something into them, but that they really believe that you have a concern and a burden that you're bringing to bear on their life, and you really, as a pastor, want them to understand what this text is saying, they'll receive it with great joy.

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But I think sometimes, especially, you know, I'm in a Reformed church, Reformed folk are known for a little bit sometimes being aggressive and, you know, highly critical of everyone else.

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We have to do it in a wise way, so I think that's a fair point. Well, we're talking today to Christopher Gordon of Bounding Grace Radio, and he's also the pastor at United Reformed Church in Escondido.

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Chris, I listen to you, and I think you mirror the name of the show,

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Bounding Grace Radio. I mean, can you imagine if you didn't disarm and kind of use a little humor, and you just were drill sergeant, and you had a

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Bounding Grace Radio? I mean, that would be like me and No Compromise Radio. No, I don't view you that way at all, but that is a fair point.

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Tell our listeners a little bit about talking about the Lord Jesus in these narratives.

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Let's use Old Testament narratives. I mean, the first thing I do in preaching class is talking about preaching

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Christ Jesus in the Gospels, because so many people moralize those. But let's talk about Old Testament.

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I think it's fair to say that Jesus isn't atomistically in every word or text, but we have to make sure we see him in the swath of redemption.

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What's your strategy to make sure you're faithful to that particular text, and then making sure in that sermon, you're showing the people the

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Lord and Savior? Right. I mean, since I just worked with the David and Goliath narrative,

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I'll sort of work from that here to answer your question. So, you look at that text, you have the choices.

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Obviously, people have taken this as a popular Bible teacher right down the street from me, just had his book, and was actually going through this series on the radio at the very same time

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I'm airing it on Abounding Grace down here in San Diego. Eureka! What was the title of the book?

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You know, How to Slay the Giants in Your Life. Okay. You know, that's how people are,

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I suppose, with a sort of narcissistic human effort point of view focused on us, they're going to approach that text.

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But it's really wonderful to see that what the text is teaching us there is

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God's strength through human weakness. And here is this monster of a figure in Goliath, 9 foot 6, 150 pounds of armor.

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No one can beat Goliath. You know, put the figure of your day who you would ever want to even think about standing up to, you wouldn't do it if we said,

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How to Defeat the Mike Tysons in Your Life. Nobody would have stepped in the ring with Mike Tyson in his prime.

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So the point is, is here God raises up this other champion who doesn't look anything like the human strength or wisdom we would use to fight

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Goliath, which already shows that we have a different way of, we should have a different way of looking at this text.

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Human strength, human wisdom would say, I need to use my resources and do what I can to slay this giant.

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We look at this and say, Israel's on the sidelines. Israel has morally compromised.

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They've been filled with idolatry. They've rejected the Lord as their king. They can't go fight

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Goliath. This Goliath has been raised up as an answer to cast down their idol,

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Saul. Who is going to go fight this champion Goliath? Then all of a sudden, somebody from Bethlehem rises, the last son of Jesse, who comes out and he doesn't wear armor.

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He comes out with unconventional weapons and he beats him with a stone in the forehead.

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And what are we seeing here? We're seeing Jesus. We're seeing God raise up a champion for us.

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But we have to have faith in the champion of his choosing, not ours, not of Saul, right?

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Not in human strength. Saul was tall. Saul was powerful looking. Saul was a dream king in light of the nation.

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Here, the Lord was clearly teaching Israel of what they need to have faith in and the champion of God's choosing, who is really showing us the person in the work of Jesus.

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Jesus comes and through human weakness, what does he do?

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He crushes the head of Satan at the cross, Golgotha, place of the skull, just like Goliath's head was taken.

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It's this champion of God's choosing that delivers us and saves us. And after the enemy is beat and overcome, then we join into that victory as Israel did that day.

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But it was the Lord who fought the fight. And that fight is ultimately fought at the cross. That's the pinnacle of history, where there

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Jesus laid down his life and rose from the dead. Everyone would have thought that was the defeat, and yet that's the victory through God's champion.

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And as John says, you know, what overcomes the world? Our faith. It's looking to the champion of God's choosing.

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And that's, for instance, in that text, that's how I would lead us to the Savior. All of it, all these narratives in some way are showing us aspects of the person and work of Jesus, so that we would not put trust in anything other than him and his work.

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Well, thank you for that explanation. I mean, I've always taught it as the five stones represented Torah, and he had a lack of faith by taking five and not just one, and they were smooth stones instead of rough stones, and...

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Well, I think this gives us an insight even to hermeneutical issues.

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Pastor Gordon, how do we work through, do we interpret the new in light of the old, or the old in light of the new?

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There's a couple different, you know, the camps, we've got a Reformed camp and a Dispensational camp. Tell us about your strategy for that, and how one view versus the other would inform how you preach

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Old Testament passages. Right. I mean, the first issue you raise there is the danger of allegorizing, which is a danger in every single camp.

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You know, and I've, I mean, going back to the early Church Fathers in origin and these problems that have always been there with allegorizing, we've had just as much problem outside of the

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Dispensational world in the Reformed camp of this. And it's easy to do, we all fall into it to some degree, but I think what's important is while there may be a simple, straightforward, intentional meaning of the

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Holy Spirit in a given text that we need to be consistent and faithful with, the applications of that can be many, and we use the

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New Testament to help us with many of these applications. For instance, it's not allegorizing to say, um,

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Saul tried to dress David in his armor. Okay, that was everything wrong with Israel and their confidence in human strength, right, and Saul, and David wanted nothing to do with that.

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As we are in Christ and in that victory, it's not allegorizing to say we wear the armor of God, Ephesians 6, right?

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That's a direct application to the truth of it. So that's one danger we want to avoid by what you just said about making the stones this or making the stones that when the text hasn't given us any warrant to do that, right?

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In terms of how we apply this, we understand that revelation progresses, and I think that's a really important principle that often gets lost when we look at this.

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We're seeing things, for instance, Genesis 315, the Proto -Evangelium, the first announcement of the gospel, it doesn't, you read it and you think, what is that?

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If you just had Genesis 315 -16, you'd say, what is that? I don't quite see exactly what he's talking about.

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We only understand that as it develops in Genesis. All of a sudden, we start seeing the two seeds develop, and we see the principles of two seeds there, the seed of the woman, the seed of the serpent, and then when we come to the cross, we see clearly what he was saying in Genesis 3 when it was stated clearly that he will crush the head of the serpent, and the

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New Testament makes that clear. So there's guiding principles right there for how we look at the

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Old Testament, right? We don't run to the Old Testament and make applications that are not appropriate.

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It's the New Testament that guides our understanding of how we read the old, keeping in mind, as Paul says in 2

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Corinthians 4, 3 and 4, that there's a veil over the heart of Israel that when they read the

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Old Testament, they can't see Jesus. The reason we can see Jesus is because the New Testament has taught us how to read the

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Old Testament. Well, thank you for that, Chris. AG Radio is what you want to turn into if you'd like to listen, if you want to go on long bicycle rides, listen at 1 .5

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speed, and I get through about five or six messages. See, it works out pretty well. Chris, anything you're doing here in the future when it comes to the radio show,

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I know that the Lord has really blessed you with that African signal. Tell our listeners a little bit about that and how, essentially, you're just trying to preach the

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Bible, but the Lord is just making this thing take off. Right.

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The Lord has opened a door for us out of Zambia on the directional transmitter there, and it really does sort of broadcast.

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I'm not sure how all the waves work and all that. Scott Clark knows all that better, a lot better than I do, but it does sort of cover the whole continent of Africa, so what a wonderful opportunity, and we have had correspondence from listeners who write in.

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Even one time, correspondence all the way from somebody in India, so it reached that far.

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So yeah, we pray that the Lord would use this little effort to make known his truth there.

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It's amazing how much English -speaking people here in Africa think, well, how do you broadcast

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English message? There's a lot of English speakers throughout the continent of Africa, so it is heard, you know, kind of vast and wide there, so we're thankful for that opportunity.

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Well, I'm glad for that. I know you and Scott Clark on Fridays are going through the book of Romans, and even,

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I think, your radio show is entitled after Romans 6 .1. What should we say then?

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Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound by no means or may never be? How can we who died to sin still live in it?

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I regularly think about that passage and tell our listeners why Paul even asked that question in 6 .1.

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In other words, if it was a works -righteousness type of system, then you'd never ask that question.

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Tell our listeners a little bit about the name of your show. Did it come from that? And then what do you think about 6 .1?

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Right. Yeah, it did. You know, God's grace abounded all the more, he says also in Romans 5, where sin prevailed.

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And we're trying to emphasize the great truth that it's hard for people to grasp.

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It is in Christ, God's super abounding grace to us, that he is for us and not against us.

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That's the hardest truth for us, because as you already observed,

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Mike, you know, it's built into us to try to achieve this ourselves. There's a works -righteousness in our heart from birth because of the fall.

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We're wired that way because we're children of Adam, but the fall has wrecked that. But the problem is, due to experience, even, and the suppression of sin in our own lives, and then of course failings, we feel all the guilt and misery of it and always are living under the sense that we've never done enough to achieve

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God's grace. And the answer is, no, you haven't. You never will. And that's a hard message for people.

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That's why God sent his Son. That's why God gave us an alien righteousness, somebody over there, apart from us, who came and lived and died and triumphed and rose over death, rose again from the graves, to beat all of this.

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And God makes known his Son to us as the way of escape and righteousness so that we can live and enjoy life that way.

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Of course, in the context of Romans 6, 1, we're not announcing that to make people careless about how they live.

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We're not announcing that to promote some sort of antinomian behavior that says we're against God's law and can go live and do whatever we want.

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As a matter of fact, Paul says, anyone who says these things and would ever teach such things, their condemnation is just.

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No, when God's super abounding grace comes to us, we're talking about a changed heart, we're talking about a born -again life, we're talking about people who have been regenerated by the grace of the

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Holy Spirit, and now their whole bent and disposition in life is to want to follow the Lord and put to death the old and put on the new.

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So this is what we really want to capture at Abounding Grace Radio, these wonderful cardinal truths of the

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Christian faith that are so important but are hard for us, since we're always trying to put ourselves back under the law for condemnation and trying to make a way before God by which he will accept, and he never will, apart from Jesus.

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Chris, I think maybe it could be my background, and I'm not even blaming my teacher, just my own background, my own way that I would read scriptures, and I think for too many years

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I thought my sanctification not gave evidence or showed fruit, but I really thought, you know what,

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I need to perform, I need to do certain things, and I didn't think you could lose your salvation, but in order to keep my justification,

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I keep my legal standing, I mean, I don't think I actually believe that, but in practice I function that way, and that's why it's so wonderful for me to rehearse these truths in Romans and to remember that if in fact no matter what

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I've done this week, there's still no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus, and to be reminded that God is, like you said before, for us and not against us.

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Do you see a lot of people maybe falling into the trap that I for years have fallen into? Yeah, and I think the assumption is that people know the gospel and get the gospel, and you know, without trying to be too insulting here, the gospel is something we absolutely have to preach to ourselves every day.

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It is something that we have to remember constantly, and no, we fall back into this all the time, and so when you approach, as a pastor,

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I'm sure, Mike, and I do this every Sunday, I look at people, and you know, there's obviously people really struggling with their sin, and experience is difficult in light of sanctification, because why would

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I continue to struggle with a sin if I've been set free? Why would I have this struggle going on within me if I'm truly a child of God, and what must this say?

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It must say that God's against me, and that's not how Paul is presenting the

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Christian life. Colossians 2 states clearly, having forgiven all your trespasses at the cross, he nailed them there, disarming principalities and powers, and took away all the legal demands.

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It's done! That's done. We need to learn, Romans 6, to think of ourselves this way, reckon ourselves dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

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He's already done that. We're already reckoned as righteous. We're already, through the life, death, and resurrection, been buried and raised with Him.

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Now we need to learn to think this way, and it's that kind of joyful presentation of the

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Christian life that motivates us to want to live and be who we are. Again, that is not and never should ever produce in us this idea that we can go live any way we want.

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That's going to be the most absent thought from the truly regenerate heart. So that we need to make very clear today, because especially in our day with so much discussions with antinomianism, there is antinomianism, but we need to be careful to make clear that the regenerate heart doesn't go on sinning, that grace may abound.

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Right. Would it be fair to say that when people read the abounding riches of Christ and His work in Romans 3b, 4, and 5, that they could say, well,

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I think I can sin and I'll be fine, but they shouldn't say it. Would that be a good way to approach it? I think this is why

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Romans 7 is there, right? I know there's been a different history of interpretation on that, but the majority interpretation has always been this is the struggle of the

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Christian life. And so there's also the other danger on the other end of the spectrum, which

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I worry about, is, you know, that we start expecting a level of sanctification in people based on what

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I think my level of sanctification is as a pastor or whatever, not realizing that it's the work of the

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Holy Spirit, a grace of the Holy Spirit, that He works in people in His working and in His time, so that we still confess at the end of the day the

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Heidelberg Catechism that says even the most holy in this life—who do you want to put there, right?

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Who do you want to put in that category? Who do you think is the most holy? They only make a small beginning in this sanctification.

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Here's the question, then. Well, what about the least holy? How much progress do they make? So, you know, we don't want to give people a false sort of assumption that coming to Christ, everything's going to be perfect and you're going to achieve perfection in this life.

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There have been groups that have taught that, but that's just not at all the biblical truth.

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We're going to be struggling with sin until glory, when finally we've put it all off, and then, you know, there's no more sin or sorrow or any of that in the new resurrected body.

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Well, Chris, before I understood these truths like I think I understand them now,

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I probably focused on Christ in me as a primary focus versus Christ for me.

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That is to say, both are true, but there's the emphasis of Christ for me and then Christ in me. That is my status before God and then how

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He works out sanctification through union and through the Spirit of God. And I think what

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I ended up doing is if you don't have those priorities with Christ for us, then

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Christ in us, then I think what I did is I just rearranged in my mind my quote -unquote righteous activities, and I think it drove me to more of a self -righteousness versus an honesty where I could say,

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Lord, I did fail in these areas, and even the best work I've done for you is tainted, yet in Christ you accept those works, and I'm thankful for that.

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Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. If you look at some of the discussions around, you know, all this issue of sanctification, and there's been in the last years a big sanctification debate, it's really surprising that those who are so against antinomianism are some of the hardest, angriest figures you'll come across.

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And you really get a sort of prideful, legal approach, again, to Christianity that tends to put people back under the law.

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I don't think they want to do that, but that's the sense that I think people walk away with in these ministries, that, listen,

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I'm really not doing enough to please God. And, you know, the test is this,

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Mike. You know, one day we're all going to have, we're all going to get to our own deathbed, and we're going to have, as pastors, many people we've ministered to, we're going to be standing in front of them at their deathbed.

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What question do you want on their mind? You know, now the rubber really meets the road.

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Do you want them saying, I just don't know that I've done enough to please the Lord because I haven't been sanctified enough?

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I will be heartbroken if I hear that. What I want to hear from anyone

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I minister to, I want to hear something like Machen said. I want to hear something that, like what

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I've tried to teach my whole ministry, the Lord loves me, and there's no way I would ever make it apart from the person in the work of Christ.

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My hope is in Him. If our people are saying that, I feel like we're communicating well what the intention and design of Christian ministry is.

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For anyone who is saying that has already progressed way farther in sanctification than anyone who's holding tight to their own righteousness.

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Amen. Good words. This is another discussion. I'm sure it could take a long time, but that's why

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I think, Chris, that while both adding to the gospel legalism, neonomism is sinful, as well as antinomianism having no laws.

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I, in fact, think maybe neonomism is worse. While both are sinful, neonomism is worse because it attacks our standing, our legal standing before the

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Lord, while antinomianism, sinful as it may be, it deals with sanctification.

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I see this swing, of course, back and forth, and I want to avoid both, but it is good news.

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By the way, as we wrap up the show today, the reason why I like to listen to you and encourage all our listeners to go to AG Radio, or you can go to iTunes, follow on Twitter or Facebook, because you're going to hear good news.

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I think that's what we are. I used to fill out wedding certificates, and I would say,

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Minister of the Gospel, I am a servant of the gospel, and I love to give our people good news.

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Good news isn't do more. Good news isn't law, gospel, law. Good news is, of course, we give the law, but then we show them the balm of the gospel, and I think you exemplify that in the radio show, so I thank you for that.

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Well, thanks, Mike, and we have to stick with the wonderful truth that God gives grace to the humble and opposes the proud, and I hope that, you know, preaching the law humbles people and the gospel as they hear what the

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Lord has done for them, so that God will give them much grace in life. That's what I want to see happen to those whom

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I minister to. Amen. But thank you for your encouragement. Well, Chris, thanks for being on the show today. I know you're super busy.

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I mean, you're the worldwide Bible teacher. You know what I like? I like to talk to people like you.

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You know, you're like an E -list celebrity, and then I can say when you're an A -list celebrity, hey, I knew you win.

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I know you hate that. I just said that because I know you hate it.

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I really do hate that, so thank you for raising that point. Well, we have wonderful leaders at our church, and I know we have our wives to help us just stay close to the honest assessment.

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And don't you think, Chris, and I've noticed this in my own life, I think before I thought to myself,

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I really have to be, I mean, I want to walk in a manner worthy of my calling.

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I'd like to exemplify 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1 in my life, but if I have to be perfect, if I have to be some kind of super saint, if I have to be at a different level in order to preach, well, again, then

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I'm just going to be self -righteous, or I'm going to despair, one of the two. But I realize my own sinful failings, and I think, but I get to preach about the one who doesn't have those failings.

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Right. I mean, absolutely. I guess I, you know, as a pastor,

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I'm always feeling like myself. I'm never doing enough. And there have been so many times

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I've struggled with whether I should be in the ministry because I just feel like I don't do enough. And I live under, if I have that struggle, and that's just on the level of pastoral ministry, imagine people's daily struggle, the sincere

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Christian who's always feeling that with regard to their relationship with the Lord, right? There's a reason, you know, maybe it's just the way

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I'm wired, but I have to hold close to Jesus, or I won't make it. And by the way, most importantly, he has to hold close to me, right?

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He has to hold on to me. I can't really hold on to him. Well, I'm glad we've got another

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Goliath slain in our latest podcast. Chris Gordon, thank you for being on today.

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agradio .org, agradio .org. I think, listeners, you will be blessed. Thanks again, Chris. Thanks, Mike.

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Please come and join us. Our service times are Sunday morning at 1015 and in the evening at six.

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We're right on route 110 in West Boylston. You can check us out online at bbcchurch .org