Cultish - William Branham, Roy E. Davis & "The Message"

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Sinner's a sinner. Don't try to reform him Don't try to tell him this that or the other.

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He's a sinner to begin with He's a pig to begin with He don't know no difference if he goes to the movies and he goes on Sunday And he goes to ballgames and he does all these things.

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He's a sinner to begin with His nature is like a hog No hog stick his own down manure pile and eat all the grains out of it everything

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Well, that's he's a hog. You can't blame him. He's a hog That's where we're sinners.

00:34

All right. Welcome back. Ladies and gentlemen to cultish entering the kingdom of the Colts. My name is Jeremiah Roberts I'm one of the co -hosts here

00:42

I'm here the Andrew the super sleuth of the show. It's been a fun time Watching a sleuth around and talk about this very interesting historical

00:52

Origin story on William Brandon. What do you think so far man? I feel like it wouldn't like like you said this would be an amazing series, right?

01:01

But there's no better story than the stories of people's lives, right? Especially the true actual historical accounts of someone's lives

01:08

Like there's the stage persona the cult information of like this hero esque William Branham But I don't find that anywhere near as interesting as this actual historical upbringing, right?

01:19

Right, and there's been something to where there have been a lot of people and I think we've gotten messages Or even comments when we've talked about William Branham a lot of people who kind of Grew up believing in him as the

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Prophet and they started finding out some of these things that we're talking about and you know

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Just referencing a movie, you know you have that infamous scene from The Matrix where Morpheus holds out the battery and there's that moment of shock and cognitive dissonance and disbelief and And so yeah, so it's definitely a fascinating Been a fascinating series so far.

01:53

This is part two talking into the historical ordinance of William Branham and We are here with John Collins.

01:59

I got to have you back my friend It's good to be back good. So I just gotta say right off the get -go we just played a very interesting clip that you afforded to us because we are transitioning into when

02:11

William Branham became a Minister or got into ministry and here he is

02:17

Calling sinners pigs and hogs. I believe is what he was saying that that seemed very peculiar What what stuck out what sticks out to you about that clip as a historian and someone who this was?

02:29

Yeah, what do you think about that? I Think I'll speak more at a personal level

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This clip is a good representation of what

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I used to be and what I am no longer I'm Sure, you guys both are aware just how deeply wrong this this clip is

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Yes, growing up. We were taught that this is the way that it is

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You basically there was no grace Whatsoever if you if you are a sinner you are a hog and that's you know

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He he says it very clearly in this clip. There are Almost 1 ,500 sermons that we had in our collection that we listened to and If you listen to the substance of each one of those sermons not just you know

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Glazing over and listening to the stories that he tells or the he has a lot of self -promotion

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But if you actually look at the substance of what he's saying He he's saying exactly what this one clip sums up that basically

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You if you are a member of the cult you have a chance at going to heaven if you fail in any way

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You're cut off if you're a sinner and you want those things that are outside of the cult doctrine you know if you he mentions

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I think movies and ballgames if you want to do these things then you're a hog and That's how

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I grew up for the first 37 years of my life I actually had never heard the actual gospel of Jesus Christ It wasn't until after we left that we started attending another church

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And I heard it for the first time and I was I was shocked. This is simple, man Why would why would anybody not want this and why would you want this thing where you're calling people hogs?

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and so it you know, we I think we mentioned it some in the last episode how

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I I was driven to find out what made William Branham convert to Christianity what made him become a minister and The reason that I wanted you to hear this clip is because the the preface to what

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I'm about to go into You can tell very clearly from this clip that he has no clue.

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What is Christianity? This is a man who claims to be a Christian, but he's not speaking in any way shape or form

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Anything that even remotely resembles the Bible, right? In fact, the only reference

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I think to hogs and Jesus was in the Gospels where Jesus takes out the legion of demons

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Yeah, and cast them into the Bay of Pigs and they go and they go over into the sea so that's the only loose reference

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I can think when it comes to hogs and The ministry of Jesus which is just I know it's just kind of peculiar so Good jumping into the historical origins

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Story, so we're talking just a little bit about and this is really a the last episode was a just a very brief overview of William Branham's childhood upbringing some of the different aspects of You around the 1920s including prohibition the

05:51

Ku Klux Klan Different notable characters like Johnny Dillinger Al Capone Incredibly fascinating.

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So one of the things we were going to talk about as he didn't there wasn't really a lot of records about his religious influences growing up But that's something he really became known for so the connection to William Branham Getting into ministry when we read your book and it gets a fascinating book to Roy Roy E Davis This is the man that really when him he met

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William Branham. He was the catalyst for the message So start at the very beginning. What's the where does the story of Roy Davis start?

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Interestingly the story of Roy Davis starts very near where William Branham's parents story started

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William Branham's mother was from right above Paris, Texas and Roy E Davis was in that County and that County itself had some the history of Paris, Texas in the surrounding area very high levels of white supremacy

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There were public lynchings of African Americans and Roy Davis basically was a

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He grew up with the same kind of influence just in a different state I don't know so much about the liquor influence, etc, but there there definitely was the

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The white supremacy aspect in in what Davis would have had from an early life

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Davis himself became Also in the ministry, but for much different reasons

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I think than many other ministers in, Texas Davis Had a series of churches throughout

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Texas and some other states which I'll get into in a little bit but he Became basically a traveling evangelist

08:00

Hmm Yeah I noticed too that in as you said that I think I'm one of the archives of your website is that he was caught cheating swindling people people of Texas in 1917 then you fled to Georgia as a traveling evangelist and Which is just interesting to you because there have been a lot of Westerns that were they've

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Depicted an evangelist like that, you know, whether they have the typical you go into a Western town

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You have the typical the snake oil salesmen You know selling their tonic that the cure -all tonic or you think about the characters like Red Dead Redemption or something like that?

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Very yeah, so you have all these interesting Western characters, but a lot of times you'll either have You know the good reverend or sometimes they'll have the corrupt reverend who's part of you know, something that's there

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So that's the first thing I caught my attention That he's there in the 1800s swindling people that just kind of caught my attention yeah, it's funny so in the

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I grew up in the Branham Cole and Growing up in this thing

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You're not allowed to watch movies or television or at least I wasn't in the version that I grew up in, right?

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so I Most most of my entertainment came from listening to these tapes of Branham or reading and I like to read

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Louie Lamour books Child yeah as a child probably by age 14,

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I think I had read them all and What stood out to me about Roy Davis as As I'm thinking kind of the long the same lines as you the snake oil salesman, etc

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There is not a single villain in any of Louie Lamour's books that even comes close to being as evil and scandalous as Roy Davis and Roy Davis basically was

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You know the a villain that is so complex trying to even understand

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I don't think Louie Lamour could have adequately Explained or described him. Hmm wow, that's incredible and so During this time and help me understand this just because I also in your website.

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It talks about William Joseph Simmons it says is during the same time that William Joseph Simmons declared himself to be the

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Imperial Wizard of the second iteration of the Ku Klux Klan reviving the White Knights as a fraternal organization and then at that time

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Georgia State Congressman William D Upshaw was a close friend to Simmons and he described him as a

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Knightly man that helped the Klan survive its first congressional investigation Davis helped write the cons that the

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Constitution For the Invisible Empire as well as their bylaws and rituals also during this time that under his real name of Reverend Roy E Davis he began

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Holding lectures to promote the interest of the Ku Klux Klan and according to multiple newspapers Davis was an official spokesman for the

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Ku Klux Klan Filling convention halls and collecting signup fees Davis began asking followers to support his political agenda

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Davis claimed that the Klan were not as bad as the skeptics had made them to be he said the

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Ku Klux Klan was not And this is that this quote was not anti Negro Jewish or Catholic and that the

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Klan favored white supremacy, but by lawful and peaceful means so That I the reason what reason why

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I read that I want to give people context Because you said this is one of the most crazy notorious and really evil men of just all the things he was involved in I kind of read that to kind of give a little bit of context

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So just from that section of what you wrote out Can you expand or elaborate that give people a better understanding of what

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I just read? Yeah, so Are you guys familiar with the movie

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The Music Man? Yes, I actually Know the very opening sequence of The Music Man when they're in the train when

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I was in high school They we had a drama class and we reenacted the opening scene to that. So You know what?

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I'm talking about for the sake of time look it up. But yes, I'm familiar with The Music Man So post -cult now that I can watch movies, this is one of my favorite movies,

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I absolutely love this movie It has a good ending and and the guy turns out to be good

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But this is a man who lives by the railways. He's going from town to town swindling people with Music bands that you know selling music equipment that they never get etc training training children and It ends up to be a heartwarming story

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Roy Davis is the same exact character but doing it under the name of Christianity he's going from town to town and He's basically setting up churches while living by the railways

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So he'll set up a church in one town and then grow it a little bit get get some people get some money flowing in Tell them that he's got the call to go evangelize

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Goes to the next town sets up another church and then just creates this circuit Well, initially the circuit was in,

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Texas but he and his brothers robbed a bank and Had to branch out further.

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So he went in through Oklahoma Louisiana Tennessee, Georgia and South Carolina, so he had this very big interstate circuit and He was going by aliases one alias that he used was a lawn

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Davis and Just like the irony in the music man

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You really can't make this stuff up right he was in Texas in one of the churches that he'd planted and he had been evangelizing in Georgia he's in Texas going by the name

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Roy Davis his actual name and He had visited Georgia and had a church there had a second wife there

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Wow and People came to visit this church and his wife and had you know dinner on the grounds with a family, etc

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Well a woman in Georgia just happened to visit a church That he managed in Texas and he saw she saw lawn

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Davis but he's going by Roy and he's got a different wife and She would not let that still so she basically just started reaching out to law enforcement ended up getting the

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Texas Rangers after him and So this is this is basically how he

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How he got out of Texas into Georgia, but he came to Georgia right at the time that the

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Klan was being born and somehow managed to Make his way into an audience with William Joseph Simmons who created who basically helped rebirth the

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Ku Klux Klan in 1915 and According to Davis he was one of the men one of the seven unknown men who met on Stone Mountain and signed the their bylaws their

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Constitution all of which I've read and And There's there's a very much a religious aspect to To what they're creating and founding here

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Yeah, so you have this man from Texas who is evangelizing in Georgia who came from a town heavily influenced by white supremacy

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Who gets an audience with William Joseph Joseph Simmons and helps create these?

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pseudo religious bylaws just You told me at the very beginning of the episode that like someone you said that people you couldn't make a store like you couldn't if you had the writers of You know you think now you're allowed to watch movies

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I one of my favorite film screenplay a screen screenplay writers is oh my gosh my mind

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Aaron Sorkin He wrote the screenplay for Moneyball And he did the screenplay for the West Wing and just you know a bunch of other really well -known films

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But you think about all these complexities. I mean you can't I don't you can't write this stuff

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It's just so it's just so fascinating so one of the questions I have an end you can jump in as well, too Is that you're talking about you know this this guy who is?

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going as a quote -unquote minister is directly influenced by Legitimate white supremacy really from its origins in this particular case in the 1920s

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And he's jumping around from state to state, and he's getting convicted of crimes in multiple states.

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He's always sort of on the run And also you think about the type of only the type of transportation that was around in around this time

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It's traveling from state to state. It's a little harder. It takes a little more work Than it does right now, but as far as just Theology and evangelistically in his revival meetings.

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Do you know what his message was or what he preached? I mean, I'm sure he got somewhat of a following.

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Do you know what his overall? Message was or was there any records of that? There are some only because of the court trials

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Davis was convicted of several things from swindling members of his congregation to Taking women across the state lines for purposes of sex which is called a violation of the

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Mann Act and During the trials and in some of his literature he describes his theology and his

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Basically his stage persona Roy Davis Was also like William Branham.

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There are different versions of his stage persona When he was in Texas, he was a just a normal Baptist minister and Whenever he was in Jeffersonville, he came

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Claiming that it was missionary Baptist, which there's there's some history behind that which

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I'll get into later He also poses in several states pretending to be a

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Baptist minister who's interested in Pentecostal ism and During those versions of his stage persona he is claiming to have had visions of peaches and just weird things that I honestly could look back at this the stage personas of William Branham that I grew up with and I could see elements of Branham in what

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I'm reading in Roy Davis. So he was very much a prototype for Branham with No solid theology that I could tell just Basically, whatever the wind wherever the wind took him and whatever the most money could be made

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It's it's extremely fascinating and with his ties to the Ku Klux Klan What since they have like an overarching thing of trying to get into, you know government or local law

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What other things did Davis have his hands in to try to? To what was the word

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I'm looking through to spread propaganda. What else what else was he doing during this time? During during the time that the

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Klan was being born See, it was a pyramid scheme and there was a financial aspect to it

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If you signed people up and you signed enough people up you could actually make quite a good living at Just signing people up for the

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Klan back then I want to say it was like seven to fifteen dollars a head and In today's money.

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It was quite a good living, right? so What he was doing apparently was one of the churches that he set up in.

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I think it was Ackworth, Georgia He was preaching Baptist You know

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Baptist preaching during the day and then at night he was holding Klan meetings in the church And signing people up for the

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Klan so he was not only collecting the tithe money. He was also collecting, you know the headcount for whoever he signed up and This became such a good business for him that he ended up starting a either buying a newspaper printing company or starting a printing company and started printing white supremacistic propaganda while being a preacher he was he was doing this and he eventually

20:56

Was able to wedge his way into the Klan Enough to become the official spokesperson for William Joseph Simmons Wow, wow and just context wise again, so William Joseph Simmons Could you elaborate just a little bit on?

21:15

on him William Joseph Simmons is the one who is credited for starting the 1915

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Ku Klux Klan when you think of the Klan today you think of the version of the

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Klan that William Joseph Simmons started There was a Klan in Tennessee.

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I think it originated back in the 1800s I think it was right after the

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Civil War if memory is my memory is correct when 1915 after birth of a nation

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Simmons saw a big opportunity and took it by creating this pyramid scheme where he's he's the central figure at the top and he created this structure that had everything from He called himself the

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Imperial Grand Wizard. There were also a pyramid of men underneath him some of them were the

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You know the Klan's official Theologian or pastor and you had all the way down to the rank -and -file members so he is the one who basically

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Created the structure organized the men Founded the

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Constitution founded the Klan started the Constitution and Basically swept swept the

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Klan across the United States man, that is it is so is so much to think about in terms of Roy Davis and how this man was constantly traveling so we have in in Tennessee where he's accused of being part of the pyramid scheme

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He then goes to Kentucky Right where he's arrested for bringing a 17 year old girl from Chattanooga, Tennessee over there

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And then from what is it from Kentucky? Where does he where does he go after that?

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How does he get back to Jefferson? Ville, Indiana His trail so he was in Georgia whenever the

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Klan was being birthed He was still running from the law from robbing the bank in Texas.

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I believe they found him in South Carolina He served a brief time in prison in In Texas, I think he only lasted just for a few days and somehow managed to get out but see during this time

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The Klan was growing and it was growing very quickly dangerous the government was starting to understand that these were

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You know militant forces that were invading the governments of small towns sometimes large towns and The the government was basically trying to shut them down and Eventually was able to Was was able to at least oust

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William Joseph Simmons and during that time The Indiana Klan was rising so they were gaining power

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Simmons was out Simmons and Roy Davis started another white supremacy group called the

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Knights of the Flaming Sword in Chattanooga, Tennessee, I think it was and They They almost got

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Almost got in a little bit of trouble whenever they found out they were swindling them the money from Many of their members so he was actually fleeing into,

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Indiana From the Knights of the Flaming Sword It's a it's a long complex history

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But when he arrived to Indiana, he was coming from Tennessee running from multiple violations of the

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Mann Act He had a Underage woman that he had taken from I believe,

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Tennessee into Louisville He had a wife and child wife and two children that he had abandoned in,

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Texas Church that he had swindled in. I think it was Savannah, Georgia and a whole angry mob out to get him in in Georgia whenever they found out that he had a

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He was leading that church while he had another church and another wife So all of this was coming to light and he was he was escaping all of this to come to Jeffersonville That just it just it blows my mind.

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So so Jeffersonville is like this safe haven for him then so he gets he gets to Jeffersonville and Paint us a picture like what what happens what type of connections does he make there?

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Yeah, so This this is really the scene that made me question the authenticity of William Branham's alleged conversion

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Davis Davis was in Louisville, Kentucky Prior to coming to Jeffersonville.

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He started a church. He started a mission where he was when swindling people all the way up to Cincinnati, Ohio Wow, and He he was basically found out they started investigating him and he made

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News all across, you know, it would have been big news in Jeffersonville Louisville, Kentucky and all of the surrounding area

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You had this minister who's sleeping with a I think she was 16 years old girl

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That he had taken from another state he had abandoned his first wife and child he

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You know had had this huge criminal history right and all of its being published almost daily in the newspapers and He flees

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Louisville, Kentucky to Jeffersonville across the state lines just to try to delay his going to prison and It's during this time that this alleged conversion happened, so he's joining forces with this man who's making very very

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Horrific public news and He comes to comes to Jeffersonville and that's where William Branham got his start

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So so what was the alleged conversion story of William Branham then just to get all of our listeners into that?

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This would be the stage the stage persona of his conversion would that be accurate a statement

27:48

It it's one of his stage personas. Um, it depends on which version of the stage persona that you subscribe to but I used this one mostly because Roy Davis himself is the one who presented a

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Statement of faith for William Branham and it was published in Branham's newsletter called the voice of healing so Roy Davis during that time was

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Pentecostal and he started a church in Jeffersonville called the

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Pentecostal Baptist Church and According to Davis which is confirmed in some versions of the stage persona for Branham Branham was ordained into the

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Pentecostal faith and And Davis basically is the one who taught him the

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Pentecostal gifts, etc Now interestingly, that is not the version of the stage persona that I grew up believing

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We believe that William Branham was a Baptist minister Who was avoiding the

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Pentecostal call until much later in his ministry? Hmm Yeah, so I mean this is just I think both of us are just soaking this in This is just I can only imagine what it must be like on your end

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I mean just on your end going through this especially because you're saying all this And we're hearing this for the first time

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But you're saying this now in light of growing up and really believing this so I mean, it's just incredibly fascinating.

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So What do you think William Branham's given his upbringing of not really having a religious background and Then coming meeting with Roy Davis and kind of learning about Pentecostal ism and healing and kind of this

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Performing on the stage, which is becomes part of his ministry. Have you ever kind of put yourself in the mind of Branham and how that might have affected him sort of being shown that this at least the vantage point of Pentecostal Pentecostal ism taught from Roy Davis, which was a

29:57

Very peculiar it's it obviously I wouldn't put it on the category of Christian given as his he has a kind of a criminal history

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That would negate any real authenticity. It's fraudulent. Yes, but I don't know

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What what do you think about that? I mean, how do you think William Branham would perceive that upon meeting

30:15

Roy Davis? it's you know, I have tried to put myself in into the mind of each of these people as our right because Really it's such a complicated history that if you even begin to understand it you have to try to think like they do why did they do what they did and So I'll set the scene for you

30:39

Roy Davis comes to Jeffersonville he holds this big convention or revival on the grounds

30:47

Wherein he's claiming that he used to be a spiritualist and he converted During that time spiritualism was very

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Very dominant in the United States. There were a lot of people who were Who were going to these seances and fortune -tellers.

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It was a big business, right? So he comes to Jeffersonville. He's presenting basically himself as a reformed spiritualist and he embeds himself into one of the local churches a guy named by the name of Ralph Raiders Church and Essentially steel splits the congregation that steals his church or his church members

31:27

So William Branham is joining during this time. He's joining at a time whenever it's a

31:33

Obviously a very big public act. It's from a man who From all appearances that I can tell has a lot of money that he got illegally

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So this was a man who would have been flaunting his money He's got an underage

31:50

Quite beautiful woman from the pictures and This in no way shape or form looks like Christianity, right, right, but from a person who whose upbringing was the

32:06

Gambling casinos and alcohol This might have been appealing. I don't know

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I have to put myself in his shoes and just kind of guess what was the motivation there? Yeah, the only other thing that I can say that that might lead me to believe that it was the motivation of the stage persona and the money

32:26

There are a few instances where William Branham mentions traveling and holding conventions with Roy Davis Most interesting of which is one of the stories

32:37

That he's telling of Davis where Davis is standing in front of this crowd of people who's who are

32:44

Pentecostals and They're of the snake handling and drinking poison sect

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And Davis stands before all of them and basically according to Branham drink strychnine poisoning

32:57

In front of the people so he's with Davis Performing the stage act of drinking the poison which if this happened,

33:05

I doubt it was poison, right? Right, but You know, here's here's a man who's traveling and doing this

33:11

Again, it doesn't seem at least for my opinion doesn't seem to match Christianity But it does match a stage act.

33:19

Yeah, they seem like to me and you can correct me if I'm wrong It sounds like Roy Davis and William Branham.

33:25

They're both pragmatists like they're They're going for the most appealing Opportunity right like especially

33:32

Roy Davis in terms of how he's living his life constantly on the run He's got a look out for number one numero uno, which is him

33:39

And I think the best option for him was to go and into this revival this reformation, right?

33:45

And then the easiest people to dupe would be of course the superstitious people that are more bent on emotion

33:52

Then using using the logical sense of their brain, so it's like pragmatism Essentially, you know, you see an opportunity you see a way to make money and you go for it

34:01

Well, and there's also so you mentioned opportunity. There's also an opportunistic part of this

34:08

During during this series of revivals is when Davis got arrested and taken back to Betrayed in Louisville, Kentucky.

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Okay, so William Branham was apparently with him at that time and During the course of these meetings the police come in they arrest him right during the meeting and take him out

34:27

So now here's Branham in the midst of all of this with the sudden opportunity to get a congregation

34:35

I don't know if that motivated him or not But if you if you base it off if you base him off of Davis as his mentor

34:43

It would seem to fit almost definitely most definitely. Yeah, one of the questions

34:48

I had just to because we're kind of We're not just Trent we're walking through the story of Branham and and the involvement of the message and and now his relationship with Roy Davis and As it progresses you're also seeing we're also kind of walking through a timeline historically is something that people experiences that people collectively shared during that era so you think about now and Everything that transpired in 2020.

35:15

I mean March 2020 is every single person we all collectively shared that last year so we can make jokes about you know, the the scavenging of toilet paper the

35:24

Everything being crazy people so uncertain about what the future held at that time there are also some very you indicative very

35:33

Unifying very historical events that made a huge impact in the history of the world at that time moving several years later

35:40

We were talking earlier about the origins of the Ku Klux Klan the Prohibition era and those and the different criminals involved with that but the

35:49

Great Depression you mentioned just a couple things in your book and you can elaborate is saying that In the 1930s

35:56

Louisville, Kentucky was a big land was a land of big opportunity even as the Great Depression was beginning to cripple the

36:02

United States economy workers could find employment in Louisville manufacturing the

36:07

George Rogers Clark Memorial Bridge would have made Jefferson Jeffersonville feel even more connected with Louisville given hope during a time of crisis and also you just mentioned that both rural

36:18

Kentucky and Indiana were Particularly hit hard during the Depression and also you also mentioned to obviously this is a very historical moment in American history and this is still studied today by economists

36:31

October 29th 1929 Was known as Black Tuesday, which is when the stock market crashed and all that entailed

36:39

How would have the Great Depression affected that area in more detail and would that would have just made people more?

36:47

thinking about I'm not thinking about the loss of We'll think about the loss of material things

36:54

Thinking trying to think about eternity or just a time of crisis kind of looking for purpose and meaning

37:00

During a time of uncertainty would that role of the Great Depression play a significant role in?

37:09

the formulation of The message when Roy Davis and William Branham were beginning to collaborate

37:16

I Think it could have for for a few reasons So I Was unfamiliar with a lot of that history

37:24

I knew that the Great Depression existed, but I wasn't really familiar with its impact and still until I started this research and Again I was trying to put myself into At that time into Roy Davis's shoes.

37:39

Why is he doing what he's doing? Why is he here? I still it that was early in my stages of research and I thought

37:46

William Branham was still somewhat Motivated by some sort of religious conversion.

37:53

It wasn't until much later. I realized that was not the case but If I base if I were to base what

38:04

I know of how this type of religion attracts people on What I remember hearing in William Branham sermons every major political event that could be twisted to a negative way or any way that incites fear was used to capitalize to bring people in and You know eventually get people's money from from the way

38:32

I can see that things worked but he was trying very very hard to Like the

38:40

Cold War if you study study different timeline Milestones in the timeline of the

38:47

Cold War and compare them to the timeline of William Branham sermon. You're gonna find him talking about Bombs that are gonna be dropped in in Jeffersonville or Louisville trying to scare people into the religion so The Great Depression if that was the strategy, which is hard to say without hearing what they said

39:08

But it would have been a good Opportunity to try to attract people to the religion now, that's looking at it from Roy Davis's standpoint

39:18

But if I look at it from William Branham standpoint here's a man who His family had just only recently been destitute

39:28

Somehow he came into money and got a car and had left for a while and came back

39:34

I don't know yet how or why he came back Or the college or anything like that but I do see that when the stock market crashed

39:46

I What I started doing was looking at newspaper articles on Black Tuesday and then started looking beyond And I still see people with jobs.

39:57

I still people Some hiring it's not a lot, but I see that there is opportunity in Louisville But in the vast majority of the country there wasn't so could the motivation have been that he saw an opportunity to survive both financially and Whatever other motivation he had by joining into the religious aspect.

40:23

I don't know but that's a question that I had. Mm -hmm Very interesting. Um, I got a question to than Andrew you any other questions.

40:30

Do you want to jump into as well, too? So as this movement is just beginning

40:36

Roy Davis has a significant history related to the

40:41

Ku Klux Klan deeply rooted in white supremacy and He was had a huge influence on William Branham kind of teaching some aspects of Pentecostal ism some spiritual

40:52

Gifts some ideas of healing just from his vantage point At least from on a on a performance level we were talking about sort of the stage name or the stage persona

41:05

But as far as the aspects of white supremacy What would be some aspect how did this how did that affect?

41:14

I mean that the theology and what was preached in that church and its origins I mean that had a pad of huge influence in key role

41:22

Be some examples of how the influences of white supremacy really affected their initial message of the message

41:28

I would say That's that's something that's painful for me to talk about Simply because I was so blind to this.

41:38

I had no idea that I was a racist I have I have since leaving that tried to do my best to undo

41:47

Anything any thought that I've had and in this way, but sure this was a very very racist cult

41:57

One of the one of the most obvious doctrines which you'll find this you know a lot of people talk about this with regards to Branham is his notion that in the

42:08

Garden of Eden Eve and the serpent had sex and produced cane according to William Branham's theology

42:16

That's That's a very common theology in white supremacy groups. You'll find it throughout

42:22

So I usually actually don't talk about that because that one's obvious. I go to the ones that most people don't talk about such as Whenever William Branham is referring to Jews, you'll find him talking about the

42:38

Apostle Paul. You'll find him talking about various Biblical figures and he's calling them hook -nosed

42:45

Jews And this is not a statement that you would commonly hear from a Christian minister it's not something that I ever said, but I heard him and I never really thought negatively that he said it so I Tried to go back and I try to wipe all of that out of my head

43:04

What why did I allow this man to say this thing and me not be horrified that he said it?

43:12

I Also did not know that these were racist terms until after leaving but he would often refer to african -american women as aunt

43:21

Jemima or He'd call him auntie, which was a slur against, you know, african -americans and This this is a much deeper study

43:32

But if you look at some of the propaganda that is that has been published by white supremacy groups

43:40

You can actually find this stuff online I think one of the big one that I found was called the

43:46

Thunderbolt, but there's numerous publications of historical record of white supremacy groups and What they're trying to do

43:58

During the later years of William Branham stage persona he was very much aligned with Roy Davis in the stance against The integration of schools and when you think about white supremacy in the

44:13

Ku Klux Klan and the civil rights movement, etc most Americans Just look at the surface it and they think it's just about the african -americans and the whites sharing the same building but at the heart of that Theology that doctrine that propaganda

44:33

It's much deeper than that this originated in the south these were from people who were very distraught that when slavery ended

44:45

Now these people who were once slaves are now given equal rights and they see them as lesser creatures

44:54

So whenever they go into the schools You're going to have a black male and you're going to have a white female who could potentially fall in love and create offspring one of William Bram's Theologies was strongly against interracial marriages, which was an alignment with the white supremacy groups but more to the point he would tell these stories that had the intent of Supporting the white supremacy movement.

45:24

He often told the story of this african -american woman and her son that he met

45:33

And allegedly healed her son But when he describes the scenario he's describing going down into the south seeing a

45:43

African -american male who was filled with STDs and He constantly repeats the story about an african -american male who's filled with STDs So the the listeners who are casually listening to this they're not thinking about the propaganda that he's spreading

46:02

They're thinking about the fact that he's going to heal this person and I as the cult person who is in this

46:10

Never once thought about the scenario. I thought about oh boy. He healed this person but he's in effect trying to Plant the seed that these

46:21

African -american boys might have STDs. So keep your children away from them and it might be good to separate the schools

46:30

Just Wow You know and I'm still trying to soak this in because I mean this is

46:38

What you're talking about and I appreciate you and you know your vulnerability

46:44

We're doing this from a strictly historical standpoint and the reality is this was Something that you grew up in so I'm so appreciative of that But Andrew, I mean tell me about just give me your thoughts on this

46:56

I mean, this is we're talking, you know, a lot of times we think about how that word gets thrown around right now just as a pejorative and Almost everything that I a lot of people on certain political spheres will just say anything that pretty much of I I don't like This particular view this is just white supremacy white supremacy

47:16

So it just becomes vague and nuance where it doesn't really mean anything anymore. But if you look at this, yeah

47:22

I mean we're on things too. I don't know and John you'll recognize this too in your book You mentioned just the Prophet you refer to him as the

47:28

Prophet which would have been William Branham that he had very negative statements about Martin Luther King and also he mentioned

47:36

John F Kennedy saying that the Prophet said that the election of President JFK Was one of the greatest mistakes the colored race ever made

47:46

So, I mean you just have those sorts of statement about very unique figures in the role of the civil rights movement

47:53

It just it's baffling me. What thoughts do you have on this Andrew? I see your head turn here, man

47:58

Well, my thoughts are kind of going maybe like three episodes in the future Maybe you'll just hint at it a little bit, but There's there's ties to William Branham and Jim Jones, and I'm trying to think how in the world possibly could those ties have ever developed when the mission of Either those individuals was exactly the opposite in terms of racial

48:21

Reconciliation. Yes, they couldn't be further apart from one another That's where my brain

48:27

I'm like, well, I'm like trying to piece these things together But at the same time we have we have to like men

48:35

I think that are pragmatists Jim Jones as well as William Branham that I would say that there's probably just Opportunity that overwhelms the fact that they have a theological difference where they may not actually really believe in in the first place like an atheistic

48:48

Sense of opportunity. Yeah, and I'll just say one thing you can go ahead and jump in give me your thoughts John is that you know

48:54

We're looking at some of you may even be listening in and maybe your mouths have like kind of hit the floor

48:59

I mean, that's how I was when you listened to that Last year when we had that episode on the Church of Israel that white supremacist

49:06

Church Oh, yeah, we had our guest on same serpent. Yeah, same surfacing doctrine and it was just It was just hearing those sermons like my jaw hit the floor but when you look at something like this and this incredible racism there is

49:21

It is hard to kind of really grasp around it feels so far from what my upbringing and experience has been

49:28

But just one thing is again leading up to where we will be in the future as we kind of go through the whole story

49:35

Of William Branham is that this and ends up, you know We mentioned to John that you have written things a lot of different articles on Jonestown Including the

49:46

Jonestown Institute, which is an amazing resource probably one of the best Historical sources really out there done by San Diego State University But um, but yeah

49:55

What do you from from here? Like where does the story go from here or do you have any other thoughts on what we were just on our commentary?

50:04

Well, I think the overall arching story and and I try to present it in my book as best

50:10

I can This was not a religious movement. I came to that conclusion about three -fourths of the way through the book

50:19

Honestly for the first three -fourths of the book I was trying to piece this together in the history of Through the eyes of William through the notion that William Branham had started a religious movement, right?

50:34

Right, but it wasn't until later in the book. I realized later in my research. I realized this was not a religious movement this was a political movement and there was an agenda and The only way that you can even see the agenda is if you take all of the different Elements of propaganda that are embedded in these sermons and align them with the civil rights timeline

50:59

You mentioned the you know the propaganda and and How people today have kind of glazed over they use it.

51:07

They use the word white supremacy casually Not long ago,

51:13

I want to say it was like 2014 there was a Branham cult pastor.

51:19

His name is Donnie Reagan in Tennessee, I think it's

51:24

Johnson City, Tennessee he was he went viral across YouTube and several social networks as the most racist pastor in America and he was

51:35

Saying things that just a few years before I would have agreed with because I was raised to believe this, right?

51:42

Right, and I what's what's interesting is I would have agreed with him and I would have said that it wasn't racist

51:49

Whenever he defended himself. He also said it wasn't racist. He was presenting the basically the non interracial marriage doctrine that William Branham had preached and Somebody got a hold of it and it went viral in the news and It resulted in a series of follow -up statements by him trying to explain his position was not racist and His argument was

52:18

I've bought these people bicycles. I'm not a racist and It honestly wasn't until I saw that follow -up that I realized that there's a difference between what we call racist today and Thinking of Humans with a different color of skin as different from ourselves.

52:40

I Use the word them purse purposefully. I bought them bicycles because He's saying this because this other group of people who he sees different as himself got a bicycle, right?

52:53

it it's much deeper than the way it's loosely used today because it's

53:00

In in these white supremacy groups It is deeply rooted in the fact that we are better than them and we should be separate from them

53:10

William Branham would often use the phrase when he was saying what I did in his political way

53:17

God makes big mountains and small mountains or God makes these different colored trees and he what he's essentially saying is

53:25

Don't let them mix because this is a different breed of human than we are that's

53:33

It's it's it's a lot. Yeah, it's a lot to take in especially thinking in the in the terms of today like Jerry was saying it's a

53:42

Yeah, it almost leaves me speechless to be honest. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so I do have a question though So we're we're kind of getting towards the end.

53:52

I mean it feels like we just blown by we've only scratched the surface here Let's just take a couple of minutes because eventually this you have this partnership just such a unique Background what starts this religious movement really the catalyst of their partnership is turns into William Branham's tabernacle

54:11

Which you know you elaborate in one of your whole chapters Which I'm sure we could do a whole episode on but because you give us just a little context so they meet together

54:19

There's a lot of these fundamental mean that Roy Davis has his life of crime jumping from state to state and doing such direct ties really with the direct origins of the

54:31

Ku Klux Klan and then Partners with William Branham and William Branham is there and and you know

54:37

He has a neat background also based in crime as well to both both in Prohibition You know, we mentioned it early in the first episode shot.

54:45

Yeah He was shot near death by by more than like possibly entirely possible

54:51

Teenager yes a teenager man, right if we think about the Davis brothers we think about the

54:57

Branham brothers These were rough -and -tumble type of people like killing someone over a Model T and the Model T was in its infancy

55:02

We're still barely transitioning They're already doing gunfights over there. No, right so all that being said their partnership

55:11

What happens in between their partnership? How does that lead to the William Branham tabernacle being started?

55:19

Most most of that research was shocking to me. I didn't originally find it there were there was a

55:28

Family who met with me and they surprised the heck out of me they came to visit me, but they were devout followers of William Branham and they were trying to they saw some of the things that I've been publishing up to that point and They wanted to prove

55:45

William Branham to be the true prophet So they found that there's numerous things beyond Roy Davis that they were researching but they found these archives digital histories of Specific things that William Branham Claims like a prophecy that had failed they found full documentation government record that this prophecy actually failed and They were trying to prove him correct and instead they proved him false

56:15

Wow, they're now free of this cult But during the course of their research

56:21

They shared with me this documentation because I was researching the tabernacle at the same time

56:27

They came across newspaper articles and a few Government documents and some of which was in the public library right next to me

56:37

William Branham in the version of the stage persona that they and myself knew and believed his life story in that stage persona was that he refused to be

56:50

Pentecostal until the 1937 flood and he claimed that God killed his wife and daughter in the flood

56:59

Because he didn't heed the Pentecostal call so To the surprise of all of us

57:05

They found that wait a minute William Branham's first church is the Billy Branham Pentecostal tabernacle and they brought to me the actual deed to the property.

57:17

The deed was dated 1936 and William Branham claimed that he

57:24

You know had these visions and started his tabernacle in 1933 So I'm trying to piece all of this together.

57:31

I've got the timeline of Davis I can see Davis and Branham together in 1933. I don't see

57:37

William Branham by himself in 1933 and I see it's a Pentecostal tabernacle.

57:43

Not a Baptist one so I'm digging through all of this trying to sort it out and During this time

57:52

Davis again, he's making sometimes even Multi -state news for his criminal activities.

58:00

He gets extradited from Indiana to Kentucky where he serves a brief prison sentence somehow gets out of it

58:09

He comes back and he sues the whole town of Jeffersonville I've got the

58:14

I've got the court document where he's going through just naming everything from the cemetery to the

58:20

Baptist Church, he's suing everybody and He had allegedly

58:28

Swindled a woman a very rich woman out of her the inheritance to her children.

58:34

He somehow got her to deed it over to him and So this turned into this massive scandal.

58:41

So here's William Branham in this church He's in the church where the pastor where the pastor of his church is wanted for sex

58:52

Swindling Multiple wives polygamy

58:59

Numerous things. I mean the list is you can find it in the book. The list is really really long, right?

59:05

he's also tied to Some his brothers are in town in Jeffersonville and they've set up an operation where they're swindling multiple states from from a missionary

59:19

Establishment they created in Louisville. So you've got this guy who's going through all of that and he's suing half the town and During the midst of all of this he gets extradited to Arkansas on charges of grand theft auto and It was after that extradition that William Branham basically inherited his church and It actually was not until recently that I discovered there is one

59:49

Version of the stage persona where he mentions taking taking those members of the church from Davis but in all versions that I grew up with and You know

01:00:01

When you look at these histories that are out there of William Branham that are fully supplied by the cult themselves

01:00:08

I think there's a series called God's generals. He was talking about William Branham None of this none of the real history exists.

01:00:16

They're talking about the history from the stage persona that I knew Wow, but William Branham's Branham tabernacle did not exist until a later version of the stage persona

01:00:27

To that up until that point. It was the Pentecostal the Billy Branham Pentecostal tabernacle

01:00:33

Let's I want to I want to get key people into a little bit of like a key moment in a

01:00:39

Branham's life as well Like you said that there's the great flood where his daughter and his wife died in terms of the stage persona

01:00:45

But that wasn't even true Wasn't even sure. Yeah, can you can you talk about that real quick just to throw people more into a

01:00:53

William Branham's? Like what was actually going on in his life? With with his wife and what happened to his daughter as well some of that like traumatic events that happened to him

01:01:03

When whenever people so my grandfather was a Established minister in this cult.

01:01:09

He was he was the leader of William Branham's Branham tabernacle for almost 50 years Whenever he recruited to the cult there was one single sermon that he gave out

01:01:19

Which was called my life story and in this sermon You call it a sermon, but it was basically self -promotion

01:01:27

He's talking about his history and he's basically describing that specific version of the stage persona and He actually preached several versions of this life story

01:01:41

And if you listen to some versions, he has people dying a different like fully different Milestones in his life.

01:01:49

His father was supposed to have died whenever he was before age six before in the sixth grade or seventh grade and Also, he preached his father's funeral on another version of his stage persona

01:02:01

So you find all these these different versions, right? well growing up and listening to the story of his wife dying

01:02:13

I will say that across every version of the life story that I found every stage persona

01:02:20

They all seem to be unified in the fact that his wife did die and it was very traumatic so I do think that that was a major factor in in Helping shape the man that he became.

01:02:36

Yeah, but the way in which he told it was not quite true She was she contracted tuberculosis in 1936

01:02:46

He was already a Pentecostal. She was she was a

01:02:52

Active participant in Roy Davis's Pentecostal Church and then William Branham's Pentecostal Church.

01:02:59

So she was a Pentecostal Her mother -in -law, I believe If you believe what he says on the sermon, she also participated in the church.

01:03:09

So she would have also been a Pentecostal and William Branham claims that Because he listened to his mother -in -law

01:03:19

Her advice not to join the Pentecostals God killed his wife and his daughter in the 1937 flood and For every person who's in this cult the two to four million people worldwide

01:03:33

They all recognized this as William Branham's quote unquote

01:03:40

Conversion to the Pentecostal faith or his particular sect of it But he was

01:03:46

Pentecostal long before this and she had tuberculosis long before the 1937 flood

01:03:51

What's interesting is it appears that he conceived his daughter?

01:03:57

During the time his wife had tuberculosis in which case he would be more responsible for her death

01:04:04

Then God killing her in the flood Man fascinating so so she ends up dying of tuberculosis and then his daughter died.

01:04:12

What like five days later after She was born, right? Yeah, soon after yeah, because she contracted what they think is tuberculosis in the womb very very traumatic very traumatic

01:04:25

I just think it's a good thing for people to know especially in terms of his stage persona and how the story conflicts But like you said, there's that lining throughout the whole persona where it's still a traumatic event

01:04:35

That is really deeply affected his psyche. Yeah. Yeah, and so I think so at this point

01:04:42

I think we've covered a lot of ground and I think the next significant event maybe will you will transition in the next episode the next time we jump into this is that there's some significant events at the

01:04:54

Chicago World Fair which is a part of your book that absolutely fascinated me as well and So yeah

01:05:02

We'll definitely delve into that and so that that kind of gives you all a foundation of really the origins of this movement of this very

01:05:10

Unique cult that still has a lot of influence today. And you know, I was not again.

01:05:15

I told you John I was not expecting when we initially posted on our social media about William Branham.

01:05:21

Just the Huge amount of impact this has had still to this day I was blown away, but I think you saw some of those comments, too.

01:05:29

So I did. Yeah, I did Yeah, and one of the reasons why I'm Good oh, yeah, go ahead.

01:05:36

I'm surprised. I was surprised at how you know the reception that you've got but also just the

01:05:42

The sheer number of people that are curious to the history

01:05:47

I'm seeing from my side as well now that the actual history is coming out it it appears to be a very hot topic

01:05:54

It is like what's what's really interesting I think is what has revived this answer the interest in William Branham at least in the circles that We're around is there's this there's this hyper charismania and there's certain people that are wanting to get the anointing of what they would say would be really powerful people of the past and There's a there's a church which we did a series on Like the beginning the beginning of cultish and their leaders of the church

01:06:22

They literally were stating that they wanted the mantle of William Branham. They wanted their students to receive the mantle of William Branham So I started looking up William Branham and I was like this guy

01:06:32

What in the world this is a supposed Christian Church wanting to get the mantle of a man That was a false prophet who did some very crazy things and it kind of blew my mind

01:06:43

That's what started our research and now I'm hoping for anyone who is coming out of maybe this hyper cares charismatic movement

01:06:51

Or if you're in it right now and you're hearing this listen to the story of the mantle

01:06:57

That your leaders are Wanting for you guys like the story that they would portray of William Branham would be his stage persona

01:07:05

But this is the actual historical life of the man and you're hearing the story From John Collins who lived in it first -hand friends first -hand account

01:07:17

This is this is a first -hand account right here Yeah, and then and also too and just for anyone listening in it's not

01:07:24

Sometimes there's that aspect of the touch not the Lord's anointed, you know and what we're trying to do is just we're trying to just throw it we're giving you really the historical facts of This story and I mean just I can't imagine the amount of research you put into here

01:07:39

I mean, it's just footnote after footnote after after footnote, you know but um, but yeah,

01:07:45

I would just say for any mean and there are some era some avenues or places where William Branham is still looked at to an honor to and revered outside of the

01:07:56

Branhamites or the message and if for anyone I guess if anyone listens in I would just want to maybe just ask well

01:08:03

How do you rectify? these historical aspects because I know that if I found someone that I revered to and had these issues like I would have to You know require is due for explanation for sure

01:08:17

Most definitely so any before we wrap up here and kind of just kind of exploring the

01:08:23

Formulation of the William Branham tabernacle the yeah the formulation of the tabernacle Were there any kind of last thoughts that you had in summary as we kind of wrap up these two initial parts here.

01:08:35

I Think I'd like to reemphasize what you said There are a lot of people not just Branham Colt people who give

01:08:44

Undue respect to this movement And these names

01:08:49

I'm sure you're familiar with the names But you mentioned I believe Todd Bentley wanted the mantle

01:08:55

Benny Hinn is another person who's Basically revering Branham and attributing

01:09:02

Branham skills to his own type of charismatic style I'm not going to speak negatively or anything historically about those men

01:09:13

But you can see the types of men that are created by this type of movement. I personally have been contacted by numerous different cult sects that were created because William Branham had influenced either the central figure of the cult or somebody close to the central figure of the cult and one of one of the people recently is a

01:09:40

Well respected cult Expert which I won't give his name But he was actually in a movement that was a one of the sub cults of Branham Branham ism.

01:09:51

So This this is much larger than most people think and the influence is much stronger than most people think

01:09:59

But at the same time The things that that were happening underneath This behind the scenes of this movement do not appear to be in any way shape or form related to God That's right.

01:10:15

Wow. Well that on that note We've just I feel like we've barely scratched the surface here again

01:10:22

We are we are going as I kind of jokingly like to say helms deep into the world of William Branham the message movement and now we've brought in the

01:10:32

Roy E Davis and their story together continues and it We've only just be

01:10:39

I feel like I've read your book John. It's so good And I feel like we've only gotten we've only cleared our throat

01:10:46

We've we haven't even started to sing as I would say But just real quickly as we wrap up here

01:10:51

Just tell everyone again if they're fascinated by this and want to know more about you Tell them just about where they can find you and also the book that we're kind of unraveling and discussing

01:11:00

All the information that we've discussed can be found on William dash Branham org

01:11:06

You'll also find the the book that you're mentioning is on Amazon It's preacher behind the white hoods a critical examination of William Branham and his message

01:11:16

And you'll also find some of my research published on alternative considerations of Jonestown and People's Temple in the newsletter section

01:11:26

Excellent excellent. All right. Well, John, thank you again for coming on and if you all enjoyed this episode

01:11:32

Please leave comment on our social media Let us know what you thought when this episode debuts and as always if a program like this

01:11:40

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01:11:57

All right, all that being said we will talk to you all next time on cultish Where we enter into the kingdom of the