Andrew and Matt disagree Charismatic Gifts and a Asian Hebrew Israelite | Apologetics Live 0025

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September 5, 2019

Andrew and Matt disagree over the topic of the continuation of spiritual gifts. An Asian comes in claiming that he will destroy Matt and Andrew over the doctrine of the Trinity but falls short and admits that he needs to take better notes. He is an Asain that believes that the Asians are the Israelites. Apologetics Live 0025 This podcast is a ministry of Striving for Eternity and all our resources strivingforeternity.org Listen to other podcasts on the Christian Podcast Community: ChristianPodcastCommunity.org Support Striving for Eternity at http://StrivingForEternity.org/donate Support Matt Slick at https://www.patreon.com/mattslick Check out all of the great apologetic resources at CARM.org Please review us on iTunes http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/rapp-report/id1353293537 Give us your feedback, email us [email protected] Like us on Facebook at http://www.facebook.com/StrivingForEternity Join the conversation on our Facebook group at http://www.facebook.com/groups/326999827369497 Watch subscribe to us on YouTube at http://www.youtube.com/user/StrivingForEternity Get the book What Do They Believe at http://WhatDoTheyBelieve.com Get the book What Do We Believe at http://WhatDoWeBelieveBook.com Get Matt Slick’s books

00:01: Dave on the home screen or at least yeah, whatever
00:08: Here we go, okay This is
00:17: Apologetics Live with Matt Slick and Andrew Rappaport, part of the
00:25: Christian Podcast Community. Hey Matt, you know what's really good for me to remember to do?
00:38: What's that? Hit save on the link for where people can join us Well, you know what,
00:44: I'm working on it right now on Apologetics Live Oh, I just added the link now, so folks, if you want to join us, you can go to ApologeticsLive .com,
00:57: the link to join is there We are live, we answer whatever your theological questions, anything about God and the
01:04: Bible If Matt doesn't know the answer, he just fakes it Yeah, that's true,
01:09: I just fake it What's going on behind you today, Matt? There's a lot of activity behind you
01:15: What's going on behind me? Well, as many of you will know,
01:21: I'm moving and I'm going to move in basically four weeks at the beginning of May And my back has been out and so we've got
01:30: Cameron back behind me and he's a friend of mine And he goes, hey, I'll help you pack and he came over and this morning
01:37: I was using a cane to get around I have a deformed bone in my back and three days ago
01:43: I picked out two little socks And my back went out just like that, you guys know how that happens
01:49: In fact, Nathan said that he reached in his truck, he reached over to get something and boom, there goes his neck
01:56: So that was a week ago and, you know, it happens Well, I like the way that, you know, that Cameron is packing up I see him putting one book in your box and then one he puts under his shirt there
02:09: He says you're putting one book in your box and one book in mine It was funny when
02:16: Nathan and Matt got together because they both started talking and from my point of view it was like My back is acting up, how's yours doing?
02:26: Oh, my neck's feeling awful, how's that? It's pretty good Getting old
02:31: Getting old So he took a day off from work actually to come over and help out, how about that? And Nathan was here, we got the couches out, we got a bunch of stuff we took to the dump
02:40: So we're moving stuff, we're starting the process now Yeah And so that's what we're doing, he's a dynamo
02:48: Yeah, at this rate he's going to have that whole office cleared out Which books is he showing you now?
02:55: This is The Secret History of Andrew Rappaport Wow An Eyewitness Account of the
03:03: Rise of Mormonism I don't know if it's good, people give me books and I don't even know if they're any good or not I've got to write, we have a code thing,
03:11: I've got to write on this one Tell Cameron to make sure to ship all those over to me You can, why don't you just do it?
03:19: Yeah, Cameron, I'll text him now what my address is so he can just ship those over to me Oh, he wants you to ship my books over to there
03:29: This is all that book, this is LDS? So So it's those two,
03:34: I'll just say one, two, three and four, okay Gonna be trying to, and actually it's getting closer and closer
03:41: What is, moving? Move, isn't that like next month? Actually the, yeah, next month, it's the
03:48: April, the last Wednesday of April, the pods will be here We're just gonna start loading stuff up and Yeah I'm gonna have to ask a lot of help from people because My back's been acting up now for a while and I'm the kind of guy, as most of us are, when we set our minds on something we work, we work and we work until we drop
04:08: And so it's really been difficult for me to watch these guys do my work
04:14: And But it is entertaining, I watched you get up out of your chair or tried to get up Yeah Lowly, it is entertaining
04:24: You know, I mean, I'm not at the point, Matt, where I need a cane to walk around like you
04:29: No, and you don't have a deformed, a formed fourth lumbar vertebra You're deformed in more than just your lumbar there, buddy
04:36: No, I got a, it's a birth defect And the doctor said I'd be having trouble later in life and here we are
04:42: You've got plenty of birth defects All right, so That's what's gonna bother me most right now, though So Okay, so we're gonna have people on, we can talk,
04:50: Kat's here, Charlie's here In here, for the folks who are watching live, if you want to join, just go to apologeticslive .com
04:59: And once you get there, there's a link to watch there or you could just watch it from there But there's also a link to participate there
05:06: And so that is where you want to go to join Now, Matt, I will say we had a couple of things
05:14: We might have someone come in that wants to start a debate podcast I told him about our show and he thought it was interesting
05:21: So he may come in He wants to start a debate podcast He wants to He's a
05:29: Christian, I don't know him personally Wait, he wants to come in here and take over and do debates?
05:35: No, no, no, no He wants to start his own Debate podcast system, okay
05:41: And so he was asking questions of how to do that And I mentioned So he may come in And someone else that I hope will come in I was down in Florida this week
05:52: And I got together with my brother -in -law's family And got to talk with a young lady
06:01: She's, I think, I want to say 16, 17, 18, somewhere in that range And she is the captain of her high school debate team
06:11: And so I said, well, come on in And, you know, because she said that, you know, she's always trying to prep for debate
06:17: I said, well, we will disagree on many of the issues She actually argued for lowering the voting age to 16
06:27: And her arguments actually made it to I guess that they're actually taking her arguments
06:33: And using them in discussion right now in Congress And so we ended up The frontal lobes of 16 -year -olds are not fully developed
06:42: They're actually technically not full humans yet That's what her aunt said So her aunt is a science teacher in high school,
06:51: I believe And she, so we ended up talking about gun control Obviously, I was outnumbered
06:59: We all know the position I take on gun control You know,
07:05: I kind of am for these nice beauties But Yeah Oh, I'd love to debate gun control with people
07:14: Yeah, so we did that Then we got into a very extensive discussion on creation versus evolution
07:21: Here was the thing that got me, Matt Is the amount of gaslighting that goes on in our public school systems
07:29: To where people believe that what they're taught And because they hear it so often
07:36: They think that is the only possible right way of thinking Right Yeah, you're right
07:42: You did something with your microphone, you changed it Yeah, so that, well, I'll put my microphone back on this So you guys can hear me
07:49: Oh, you can hear? I'm just, like, a few seconds too long Oh, okay, good, no problem then Okay, I'll put it back to where it was
07:56: So So yeah, so we ended up It was interesting because the science teacher told me
08:02: She didn't know there was anyone that She only says she deals with homeschool moms
08:07: And she didn't hear anyone actually give good arguments Arguments for what? For creation Oh, okay
08:14: And against evolution And yet, here's the thing I find So many of them argue They argue for adaptation and speciation
08:22: Something that we would agree with And see in scriptures Being of the same kind Is the same kind of family
08:29: Animal family, per se That's, you know, that's something we all agree on But what they do is a bait and switch
08:38: They talk about special evolution And they define evolution as just change Well, everything changes
08:43: I mean, you, a few years ago, didn't need a cane to walk around You've changed Yeah, now I'm evolving Yeah, that would be evolution, but Yeah, I'd be called devolving
08:53: Yeah But, I mean, that's the thing They end up doing a bait and switch
08:58: Where they say We'll see if it happens in special evolution In the adaptation
09:05: Then you can Suddenly change from one family of animal to another Yeah, phylo -change
09:12: Yeah, and yet those require two different things One is the loss of information in DNA And the other is the gaining of information in DNA We should have
09:21: Anthony on sometime We could talk about all that kind of stuff I'd love to interact with that kind of information Well, actually, we will
09:27: I'm going to be headed to the Philippines in May And he's going to fill in for three
09:32: Thursdays Yes So, lots of evolution debates
09:37: He needs to come on sooner Because of the first week of May I'll probably not be on here Because I'll be traveling Ah, okay
09:43: Well, then maybe Eli and I will get on Maybe, yeah, that's right So, I don't know if Cat has any questions
09:53: She's in here early She likes to come in early So, I've added her in Cat, if you have any questions
10:00: I wish I had something absolutely phenomenal But no, I just love listening
10:07: Okay, so maybe Paul in the chat would join us Because he's saying macroevolution is just microevolution
10:17: Over a long period of time Well, then, if that's the case Then microevolution is a reduction of the allele frequency
10:26: Where macro is an increase in it The problem is People who say that kind of thing They don't really understand the difference between them
10:34: Microevolution is when you have Say, for example There's a storm that blows a bunch of birds off the coast
10:40: Hundreds of miles away to an island And there's no birds there And so this is the only species of birds that's there
10:46: And let's just say, you know, 40 or 50 are blown off And now we have this new population of birds there
10:52: Well, let's just further say That that island doesn't have much food that they like And let's just say that In order to get the food, they have to have bigger bills
11:03: And the bigger -billed ones will survive Well, then the ones with the weaker, smaller bills
11:08: Don't survive And they don't send out or descend Or reproduce as well
11:16: And so they're eventually wiped out So their genetics are wiped out And so whenever a manifestation of that genetic information
11:22: Of a small bill manifests Then it's wiped out Because they don't pass on their genes
11:29: Because they can't eat Well, then that would mean then Microevolution is, in this sense, the bigger -billed ones
11:36: But it's not because they have new information That makes their bills bigger It's because whenever a small -billed genetic information rises
11:43: It's removed So it's a reduction of the information That's usually what speciation is in that sense
11:49: That's not always the case But there's variations like that Macroevolution is a rather humongous, significant change
11:57: An increase in genetic information So how do you change from a fish to an amphibian? The genetic information that's necessary for that Is just phenomenal
12:06: It's the amount of information It's called a phyla change He's going to do the tape on the box And so the phyla change is a body -type change
12:15: And this is the fossil record, supposedly So it's 530 to 550 million years ago
12:22: The Cambrian explosion Where phyla body changes These phyla changes produced very, very quickly
12:29: And it's just not enough time for evolution to account for Absolutely not enough time
12:34: The amount of information necessary for that to occur Is just way too huge It cannot occur even in that millions and millions of years
12:43: People who say that just don't know the facts And in science classes they don't talk about The counter -information to evolution
12:53: None of it's produced, none of it's presented And there is counter -information And you bring up the point
12:59: Because when we talk about special evolution Which is what he's referring to as micro
13:04: In the small changes, adaptation, species, things like that It is a loss of information in DNA Christian scientists agree that that happens
13:17: That is the idea of natural selection That's the idea of what they refer to as evolution
13:25: But as this person says The assumption that those changes Losing DNA over time
13:31: The example you give with the beak The bird has the
13:36: DNA for both the long and short beak It's in the DNA Now over time it might lose one of those
13:44: That information But when we talk about what he's referring to as micro evolution
13:51: Or general evolution That requires new, reproducible, beneficial information in the
13:59: DNA We see plenty of new information in DNA It's called cancer We see mutations that occur
14:08: The mutations we see Most often are not beneficial
14:15: There are some that are beneficial But those that are beneficial are not reproducible For evolution to be true
14:22: As they claim We have to have beneficial and reproducible happening So often that we see it happening over time
14:29: And yet we don't see evidence of any of it anywhere Ever being both beneficial and reproducible
14:36: In those mutations Yep Evolution has all kinds of problems
14:42: And I'd show you my books But we're packing them On evolution And various books that work against evolution
14:49: That demonstrate a lot of the facts This is what gets me is
14:54: They don't teach both sides of the story In science They only teach one
15:00: And when counter evidence is proposed It's knocked down and not allowed
15:07: There are plenty of accounts Where people will have arranged debates in colleges
15:13: Between evolutionists and those who are intelligent design And there'll be people who will pick it
15:18: And say that intelligent design is not allowed To be even debated
15:24: And they've actually had meetings cancelled And debates cancelled Because students and faculty have put on pressure
15:31: To not allow it Now this is supposed to be an ecology Where both sides are supposed to be presented Information, education
15:37: So it just tells me that Really what's happening is It's not an issue of truth
15:44: In fact it's an issue of agenda As is often the case with so many things Well it's censorship They can't handle the debate
15:51: And so they need to censor And that's what we see over and over again And that's what's
15:56: You know you have a whole generation of kids That are unfortunately believing that they're right
16:01: Just because it's the only view they hear And they don't even know the bait and switch That's being played for them
16:08: That's right, amen to that You know Matt do you think there was a flood And the entire earth was covered in water
16:14: And you say people don't know the facts Well Paul The bible says all the mountains were covered
16:21: I have no problem with that And also Paul what you don't understand is that There are sedimentary layers with fossils in them
16:28: In high mountains all over the world All over the world How do you account for that You can say that this wasn't true
16:36: You can mock it You can do whatever you want But flood stories exist in every single culture
16:41: Around the entire world Every single one has a major flood story Not just the river overflowed three years ago
16:49: No a story and a great history About a flood destroying everything
16:54: And every culture has that Something happened in the past Paul Maybe you might want to stop
17:01: You know your mocking tone And do some homework Do some studying Well and here's the thing
17:06: You just brought up the Cambrian explosion Where all these fossils suddenly somehow
17:11: We have all this fossil record Well that would explain the flood I mean that's basically what that is
17:18: When we look at the flood That's what we end up seeing We see a whole bunch of fossils
17:24: That all come about in one time And this is the problem
17:29: And Paul you're welcome to join us Because what you end up seeing Is people that make statements
17:36: Because they're gaslighted They believe it's true Because they've been told it's true over and over I'm going to bring in I know his name is not
17:46: Amber He uses his wife's account Let me turn his volume up I believe and you can correct me
17:53: I think your name was Steve Yes sir How's it going Andrew? Okay I'm not hearing you
17:58: You hear me now? Make sure Oh I didn't hear you Now I hear you You hear me?
18:04: Yes Yeah my name's Steven Alright So it's not Amber We're not going to have a problem
18:10: Where you're not sure No she's over there She's over there cooking the calzones
18:17: She's over there cooking My mom and her are cooking calzones for supper Oh wow Yeah I haven't seen
18:23: I hope you're shipping some this way No the story is I haven't seen my mom In over about 15 years
18:30: I moved here to Missouri And you know she's a believer My whole testimony starts with her
18:37: But anyways we flew her out here She's going to be staying out here For about a month and a half or so So really good
18:45: Really good You ship some calzones over this way
18:50: I'm just saying So what questions do you have tonight? So I had a default for You know
18:58: I came to the doctrines of grace A while ago And the one the doctrine that I had
19:09: I kind of defaulted on Basically like a default position Was on the atonement
19:17: I see exegetically from the scriptures I think probably The one
19:22: I usually go to Is the one in Colossians And the one in Hebrews Where you know about the atonement
19:29: Someone's banging What's that? Yeah Someone's banging Yeah that's her chopping stuff up So my question is
19:40: I got to anyways I got to preach tomorrow But I'm trying to run I'm trying to help my mom out
19:47: In what respect? With the limited atonement That's easy
19:53: Yeah Sort of Because she has a
20:00: Independent fundamentalist background So do I How about this
20:05: Just ask her this Ask her What does it mean for Jesus To pay for people's sins?
20:14: People we've heard this a hundred times But what does it actually mean? And you know
20:19: They give all kinds of answers Well it means he He paid for them I got that He paid for them
20:25: What does it mean to pay for them? And you just start Throwing out questions Is a sin debt canceled?
20:32: He took the sins that we committed And paid for them Well what does it mean To pay for a sin?
20:39: Start asking questions like this Because what does it mean To pay for a sin? What's the effect
20:44: Once a sin's paid for? It's like a debt You know you have a debt A layaway
20:50: Whatever a debt A car and you pay it off So it's paid for Does the debt exist anymore?
20:57: You know And when does it not exist? When you believe Or when it's paid for? Just questions like this Get her thinking
21:02: She'll go that's right You know Yeah Yeah Right on But I enjoy you guys
21:09: I tell Amber all the time I'm gonna go check out My new friend Matt And she says
21:15: I only spoke to you a few times So we're not friends But I don't believe her I think we're friends That works
21:22: When Matt starts insulting you Then you know you're his friend That's why
21:29: I don't insult Andrew I just tell the truth Oh that was good
21:35: That was a good comeback I'm just hanging out here
21:42: I appreciate you guys though Okay well good man Good Alright then we'll
21:50: So I'm gonna mute you If you wanna come back in Just say something You got something else
21:55: Hold on Yeah one more request If you guys can just keep me in prayer I gotta go to this recovery house
22:01: And I got invited to minister there Once a week So just keep that in prayer
22:07: Good Were you going tomorrow night? Did you say you're gonna be Yeah Tomorrow night's gonna be my Tomorrow night will be my first night
22:17: And if they want me to come back Then it'll be once a week Okay So We'll keep that in prayer
22:25: Right on We will So I'm gonna just mute you down If you wanna join back in Just raise your hand
22:31: I'll see I added Andrew in Our friend from Down Under See if you have questions here for us tonight
22:38: Andrew Um Yeah You alluded to devolution
22:45: Um Don't know Not really sure how to phrase it But I recall watching a
22:52: DVD or a YouTube clip of An Australian who claimed to discover
22:58: Uh Some form of devolution Um So the loss of information
23:05: And then the Like a The Comes in the steps Um How is that even possible?
23:13: What are you doing? I told him Steven What are you doing? Yeah Are you talking about genomic entropy?
23:18: Is that what you're talking about? Yeah I was talking about some discovery of Different Two Different sort of Species Breeds of Humanity That they found in China or somewhere
23:31: Um And the only way that they could actually make it work Was to take
23:37: To a devolution level So we've gone back Instead of going up I'd have to Check that out
23:43: Who wrote it? Uh I don't know It was a YouTube clip It was an Australian clip
23:48: In China Going in China There was a whole Uh Drama Put before it
23:55: As they try to do To present the position of these two
24:00: Tribes finding each other And killing each other Sort of thing Um And Or interact
24:06: Well not kill But to In a way of interacting Um But it was kind of That was the first Place I've heard
24:14: Or ever heard Really of the devolution In any Serious Format Because I don't think
24:20: There's any Any Significant Atheists I don't think You'd find Dawkins Or Even Hitchens The late
24:29: Hitchens Or anybody else Even supporting A devolution Um I heard recently
24:37: About genetic Entropy And Uh What it is Is Our code
24:42: Our genetic code With each generation Is Is Uh A little bit
24:47: Less efficient And That Within 200 More generations
24:52: Someone said 200 to 250 Reproduction Will be impossible Yeah There's Yeah I forget
25:01: The Uh I forget The name Of the book Upstairs Yeah I gotta research it
25:06: And see But you know It's just things Research The idea behind That are Are The DNA As it continues
25:13: To be passed on Keeps degrading And there Is a limit To how
25:19: Often How many Generations You would be able To have
25:24: Before the DNA Breaks down too much To where reproduction Is not As easy
25:30: As it is To To To to To To To To To To To To To To To To To To To To To To To To To To To To To To To To To To To To To To To To To To To To To To To To In the chat.
27:33: We already did. Sorry. What's Cameron doing? Problems over there?
27:39: Yeah. Nick wants me to get rid of more of my books. I'm like, we'll talk. I've already given away hundreds.
27:46: I think I can make some room around here. My Mormon section can use some expansion. You know what?
27:52: If I'd have known, I could have done what's gone through and taken some Mormon stuff out. But when I get to a new place,
27:58: I'll be calling a lot of the books that I've got. Now, I'll just have Cameron send them all here, right over here.
28:05: For those of you watching on YouTube, my challenge is, don't be a keyboard warrior.
28:15: Stand on your convictions, come in here and challenge us. Don't just say that we don't know what we're talking about.
28:22: It's amazing how guys like this guy, Paul, who just doesn't want to come in here.
28:30: He doesn't want to actually challenge, just wants to challenge online. I think it's because these guys know that their arguments are not sound.
28:40: They can't really make a good argument, and therefore, it's easy to type it and run away.
28:49: It is. Oh, cool. I'm listening. I'm just watching the rain. I was also going to add, the other day,
28:58: Volker Malone had Johnson Sofati on, and earlier this morning, he had him on as a part of a different interview, one of his shows where it goes for a certain time and then it ends.
29:10: It was quite interesting. Matt, unless Andrew, do you have any other questions,
29:18: Andrew? Not off the top of my head. Okay. Until some folks want to come in and maybe give some challenges here.
29:27: Hey, we've got marble -sized hail happening here right now. Loving it. Why didn't you bring your camera with you so we could see it?
29:34: I'll bring my camera. My phone camera? No, no.
29:40: Bring the camera on the computer. Bring the whole computer. Yeah, that'd be funny. That would be good.
29:49: Matt, let's talk gun control. Okay. I'm against it.
29:57: I'm from Jersey, so I must be for gun control. What would be your best arguments why you'd be against gun control?
30:08: For one thing, it's unbiblical. What versus have a gun? Hold on a sec here.
30:17: Matt came into the room to get his phone so he could take a picture. Yeah. It's hailing outside.
30:25: It's awesome. All right. Well, you want to give some arguments for gun control?
30:35: If not, Brian just came in. He was one of the guys that was in chat. Well, gun control,
30:43: I mean, what happens, generally speaking, when you take people's weapons away from them, they're not able to defend themselves.
30:50: It's the wicked who want the good to be defenseless, so that the wicked are the ones who are able to do what they want.
31:00: And the power hungry sociopath in government, you know, they want to take away our guns so that they can be in control of us.
31:08: You know what happened in New Zealand? The idiocy of them say, well, let's ban more weapons because that'll solve everything.
31:20: No, it's not going to solve everything. You know, in England, you know, people can't have guns.
31:25: Well, wow. Look at that. Cool. Here's the hail that we're having out there.
31:33: Pretty cool. And you know what's neat about that? You are so cold that it's not even melting in your hand.
31:43: So in England, actually, what's happening is there's a knife attack every five minutes or something like that.
31:50: What do you do? Outlaw knives now? No, it's just ridiculous. So I want to be able to defend myself and defend my family.
32:00: You know, I think baseball bats are the actually number one weapon of violence in America. Can you do that in there?
32:07: So I'm going to add Brian in here. He was one of the guys that was chatting in the chat room.
32:16: It sounds like it looks like he may be in a warehouse. So I'm hoping. So you're now added,
32:23: Brian. Let's see if we can hear you. You got to unmute yourself, though. Hi, Andrew.
32:30: How are you doing? Good. So it sounds like you might be in a warehouse or something there.
32:35: Yeah, I'll stay muted until I'm speaking. That's fine. Sure. So go for it. So what questions do you got? Well, I just got timed out in the chat.
32:44: What's up with that? Are you the one who was insulting or what? No. Well, I can give you the answer to that.
32:53: He was timed out for mocking and distracting. It's only a time out of your year.
32:59: OK, there you go. That's why I proved it. He just proved it.
33:05: I think, yeah, he proved it for himself. Thanks. I'm going back to you. So, Brian, do you have a question?
33:12: And he can be on time out if he's going to cuss. That's it. No, no. I think he can be respectful.
33:17: So only if he agrees not to cuss, not to be insulting. And if he doesn't agree, he's gone.
33:24: This is a grown up conversation we want to have. We don't want to have puerile conversation and foul language. So are you able to do that,
33:30: Brian? Yeah, but the problem with that is there are multiple studies that show the intelligence of people who use profanity on a regular.
33:38: Is that OK? I'm not going to play with him. He either agrees or he doesn't have a conversation in here.
33:44: I don't want to have someone come in and justify why it's OK to have foul language. So I'm not interested in having a conversation with him.
33:50: Brian, do you want to do you have some questions? Yeah. Specifically for you,
33:56: Andrew. Is that OK?
34:02: Yeah, we're waiting. Yeah. So I've been following you in the Apologetics 2 .0
34:08: group on Facebook. You seem to have a hard on for. OK, get rid of them.
34:14: Get rid of them. Please get rid of them. What? OK. Yeah. My guess is my guess is just by, you know, the group that he's referring to.
34:27: There's a there's a guy who wanted to debate me, Matt, based on things that Anthony Silvestro said, things that you said when
34:36: I said I didn't say them. So I'm not going to debate things I haven't said. It was exposed that I was right and he was wrong.
34:44: And to save face, his argument was that I ran from the debate.
34:49: Three people set up, tried setting up a debate with the guy and he denied all three times.
34:56: The reality is, is that his argument, because I'm guessing since he was starting to refer to homosexuality, these guys came up with an argument.
35:06: This is their logic, Matt. If you group other letters with LGTB, there
35:12: I was asked to speak on LGTB and plus one of the things that some people want to add to pluses
35:20: M, which is maps, minor attract people. Their argument is that I'm claiming if I add an
35:26: M that all homosexuals are pedophiles. That's ridiculous. Yeah, it would be because.
35:33: If that's the case, then why don't they say L's? All L's are B's and all B's are G's. Exactly.
35:40: That's that's what was the problem in the logic. If the if the gay stands for males that are homosexual and the
35:46: L stands for women who are homosexual, you you can't have those two then because they would be mutually exclusive.
35:54: Right. I mean, that's what shows the logic of it, that this is the each letter has a separate meaning.
36:03: They're the fact is they're the ones that keep coming after me. I'm not I don't bring up the issue.
36:08: And what they're responding to, the irony is they're responding to a message I gave where I talked about showing respect and compassion, something they have yet to do.
36:17: Yeah. Well, you know how the leftists are. They're the hypocrisy of leftism is profound.
36:23: They want freedom of speech, but not for you. They want respect, but not for you. They want fairness, but not for you.
36:29: That's just how it is with them. They're you know, I never really understood.
36:34: Seriously. And I'm not joking. When Jesus would say to the Pharisees, you hypocrites.
36:39: Oh, I went, OK, we're hypocrites. I don't quite get it now. I'm getting it. Why it's so important about hypocrisy.
36:49: And it's the left that has really shown me that. Well, you know, it's interesting and traditional
36:57: Catholicism will bring him up in a minute. But, you know, when we look at politically, this is what we see.
37:03: We see censorship that, you know, they talked about tolerance and being open minded and being, you know, not judging other people until they felt they had enough of the control of the culture to then say, now anyone that disagrees with has to be silent.
37:21: It shows that they really weren't interested in tolerance. I mean, Trump had to actually do an executive order to say that colleges that receive government funding have to be open to free speech.
37:34: That's where they used to argue for free speech when they were trying to push liberal ideas. Now that they have the liberal ideas kind of entrenched, they don't want to open and free discussion anymore.
37:45: Yeah. Oh, yeah. The you know, the colleges are agenda factories, they're not higher education factories.
37:52: When I went to college back in the 80s, the left leaningness was just there.
37:58: And the lack of ability of critical thinking was profound among the faculty. I got stories about my interaction with some of the faculty at a secular college.
38:09: And let's just say I had a reputation at this one junior college that I went to for a couple of years, had a reputation there.
38:15: And they were afraid of me. And it's not because I was mean. It wasn't because I was threatening. I'd just be in a class. I'd, what about this?
38:21: What about that? What about this question? I would just do this. I just ask questions. And I'm like, well, I don't agree with that.
38:26: And and they didn't want to to talk with me after a while because I was a student who who actually said, what about the other side?
38:33: What about this? What about that? Well, they can't teach critical thinking. I mean, you can't teach critical thinking and evolution because they're mutually exclusive.
38:41: You know, you know, but basically what you end up seeing is that they're not really interested in free thinking.
38:49: They're not interested in opposing views. They want to shut it down because they they can't.
38:55: They just can't win in the debate of ideas. Right, they can't. That's why
39:00: I say it's agendas. And that's why they they put up, you know, promote legislation like the
39:08: Green New Deal and then go, you know, oh, we don't actually want that voted on. What is he doing?
39:16: He's tearing the door off or something. He's moving my shelves because my back is gone.
39:23: He's come over. He took a day off from work to come over and help me. And so he's doing all the work. It's great.
39:29: Well, it's good that Cameron's finally working. Yeah, probably getting done. Yeah, he's taking.
39:34: I've never seen him work. See, look, there's a lot going on. It didn't look like that before. He really left a mess there.
39:40: Look at that. Yeah, there's oh, yeah. They have been in here for 15 years, books and stuff like that.
39:46: And we're moving and my back is out. So I haven't been able to do much. We got guys coming over.
39:52: Excuse me. And so anyway. All right. So I brought in a traditional
39:58: Catholic. He's been here before bringing his volume up.
40:04: And so I'm sorry about this. I forgot your name. I want to say it's Peter, but I can't remember.
40:10: Oh, no, no, no, no, not Peter James. James, I'm sorry. Forgive me. So, James, go ahead with your question.
40:18: Yeah, there was another well, I had three questions, if that's OK. It's it shouldn't take that long to answer.
40:24: But there was another hangout group that was on YouTube where there were supposedly white nationalists.
40:30: And I don't know if you heard the news about Facebook banning, censoring all white nationalists.
40:36: It's been reported today. But if you go on Facebook and you type in black nationalists, a whole bunch of pages will come up.
40:45: But I'm against all, whether it be black nationalists, white nationalists, or any other kind of nationalists.
40:51: I think it is all racist. But in that hangout group, they said that, and I can't remember what scripture that they presented, but they said it's actually biblical that different nations, and they said that the different nations are referring to different peoples, you know, like black, white, et cetera.
41:12: And that it's specifically saying that they should remain separate or something like that.
41:18: And - That's called kinism. Yeah, they quoted the scriptures. I can't remember which ones.
41:24: And I told them, no, that's not biblical. And they quoted it, and I didn't know exactly what to say once they quoted it.
41:29: So maybe you might be familiar with that. Yeah, it's, you go to Genesis 125,
41:35: God made the beast after their kind, is one of the verses they use. So blacks with their kind, whites with their kind, which is, it's horrible exegesis.
41:47: And so kinism is the idea you stay within your own race and economic structure that is race oriented as well.
41:58: So there's a certain website that talks about it. Our white peoples have an inalienable, that is
42:06: God -given right and duty to seek their own prosperity and existence as distinct nations, apart from all other genetic and ethnic families.
42:13: We believe the cultures of our European ancestry to have achieved a similarity, which allows them to seek unity, where unity is conducive to the glorification of God.
42:23: We further recognize the value, the uniqueness, preciousness of all the families of man, of God, or equal theoretical participation in salvation offered by God through election.
42:31: So they sound good in a lot of areas, but what they do, blacks with blacks, white with white, things like that.
42:37: And economic diversification also based in part on that. I figured they were trying to twist scripture.
42:45: And I have another question. You had said before that you've had experience with apparitions, demonic activity.
42:55: Yes, I have. And the last apparition that you spoke of, you said that it turned into a cross.
43:01: Yes. And I was wondering, do you believe that that was an angel from God or do you believe that was some sort of demonic being?
43:09: Demonic. Okay. And my third question is this, in context with the whole moving that's taking place,
43:19: I'm sure you've seen movies like the Conjuring. I don't know if you've seen them or not. The Conjuring, Amityville Horror, movies about where paranormal activity is in a home whereby the people, they moved into this home that other people, there was a history in the home.
43:34: I don't know if the home that you're moving into is something that other families lived in, but in Catholicism, usually we have a home blessed with holy water and we call on the
43:47: Lord's name in the Trinity, in the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, and we rebuke any demonic entities that's in the home.
43:56: And that's when we move into a home that's been used, at least some Catholics do that.
44:03: But in Protestantism, what is the process with Protestants whenever moving into a home?
44:10: There is no official Protestant methodology like that. But what
44:16: I will probably do when I get into the home we eventually buy is I'm sure it'll be used.
44:22: And what I will do is go through and take oil and just anoint every single wall, every single room, every single door, every single window, just very lightly.
44:32: It'll take me an hour or two, go through the entire house praying out loud and just asking the
44:38: Lord to bless and to bind any potential evil that may have occurred, et cetera, et cetera. That kind of a thing.
44:44: I've done it in houses before, done it to this house. In fact, in this house here, we started having, a few years ago, we started having issues, odd things that started becoming more prevalent in the house.
44:58: And even to the point where one of my daughters said that she saw a figure in a hallway. And so, it wasn't much, it's like, is that anything?
45:07: Is this anything? And then we started more and more things, little odd things. Where's this?
45:12: This has been, I put it right there. It's not there anymore. Where's that? Why did it show up over here? Just so that you wonder about.
45:19: And then when she said that someone else actually said that they saw a figure and then she saw a figure, then my other daughter said she saw something.
45:27: I went, okay. So my wife took everybody away, went out and saw a movie or something.
45:33: And I anointed the entire house, all of it. I mean, everything. Took me about an hour.
45:40: And after that, we had no problems. I'm not saying you do some mystical thing like that, things are gonna work, but I'm just telling you that that's what
45:47: I did. Okay. And I just wanted to say, that's all the questions
45:54: I have, but I just wanted to say that, we Catholics agree with you, Matt, with the whole covenantalism.
46:02: We reject dispensationalism. Mike is free. Oh, let me say something about this.
46:07: I'm actually working on an article on divine simplicity. Two articles.
46:13: What is divine simplicity? A little bit of its history, a little bit of this explanation. And I'm writing a divine simplicity as it relates to the doctrine of the
46:20: Trinity. And one of the statements I made is, the Catholics and the Protestants both affirm divine simplicity.
46:28: And I went to, oh wow, I can't believe I remember this. I think it was paragraph 43 in the CCC, which
46:34: I thought was good enough. And then out of the Belgian confession, wow.
46:40: A Protestant thing. Anyway, so Catholicism has a lot of good stuff in it. Trinity, hypostatic union, communicate with your matrim, has various things, but it also has its heresies as well.
46:51: So not everything in Catholicism is wrong. And I tell people that every now and then, they're surprised to hear me say that, but they can do some things that are on the right side, but that's about it.
47:05: And for folks, CCC, you're referring to the Catholic catechism that came out under John Paul II.
47:12: Yeah, Catechism of the Catholic Church, CCC. And it has Neil Lobstadt in the imprimatur, which means it's official.
47:20: And for a set of ecantists, I'll just have to find more information out of the Council of Trent and things like that.
47:27: But the CCC is just easier to work. I have the entire Council of Trent online on my computer and stuff like that can go through things.
47:37: Anyway. All right, so James, you got anything else for us tonight? Oh, he's still muted.
47:46: So I'm gonna think that's a no. All right, I just, I added Chris Harris. We always get some good reformed discussions when he has questions.
47:55: So I've added him. I'm gonna check to make sure his volume's up. So Chris, if you wanna unmute yourself, unless of course he won't, no, there we go.
48:06: How y 'all doing tonight? Good. We're okay. Good, good.
48:12: I really didn't have any questions. I just came in to see you guys. But I mean, if you'd want something,
48:17: I guess I can ask you, Matt, about you brought up the atonement earlier. About what? You brought up the atonement earlier, the atonement of Christ as far as limited atonement.
48:27: And it was something I was gonna ask you about that. When you say that he paid the debt, what exactly do you mean that he paid the debt on the cross?
48:36: What I understand it to mean is that sin is a legal problem. 1 John 3, 4 says sin is lawlessness and laws by nature have punishments.
48:44: So there's a consequence. So it's a debt. And you've heard the phrase, you know, paid our debt to society.
48:51: Well, society takes the place in this issue of the issuer of the law.
48:57: And in the biblical sense, God is the issuer of the law. So when we lie, we offend God's character.
49:03: We're saying that it's okay to lie. It's okay to be contrary to him. If he were to not deal with that, he would be permitting evil and unrighteousness to occur without dealing with it.
49:14: And that would be unrighteous in itself. God deals with us. So nevertheless, sin is breaking the law of God.
49:20: 1 John 3, 4. Jesus equates sin with legal debt. Our father, heart and heaven, hallowed be thy name.
49:26: In Matthew 6, 12, he says, forgive us our sins, our debts. In Luke 11, 4, forgive us our sins.
49:32: So he equates legal sin with debt. And legal sins could be transferred, our debts could be transferred.
49:38: So he bore our sin in his body on the cross. Sin's breaking the law of God. The breaking of the law, that issue is a legal debt, transferred to Christ on the cross, 1
49:47: Peter 2, 24. So when he paid at the wages of sin and death, Romans 6, 23, then he paid the requirement of the law of sin, which is death.
49:57: So by imputation, our sin was imputed to him 2 ,000 years ago, and then he died with that sin.
50:03: So that sin debt is now paid. And because it's paid, it's canceled at the cross.
50:10: Colossians 2, 14. And therefore, it cannot be the case that the sin debt that has been paid, which is also canceled.
50:20: It cannot be held against anybody whose sin debt's actually been paid and canceled.
50:28: That make sense? Yeah, it makes sense. Now, how is it that we come to limited atonement by that?
50:36: So did Christ, what I'm asking is, did Christ pay a certain amount at the cross?
50:43: I'd like to phrase certain amount. Let's do it this way. The question, you know, there's two questions.
50:49: He either paid for the sins of everybody who ever lived, or it's not the case that he paid for the sins of everybody who ever lived.
50:55: Both of them cannot be true. So if he paid for the sins of everybody who ever lived, then he paid their sin debt.
51:01: If a debt's paid, the debt doesn't exist anymore. So if the debt doesn't exist anymore, that means the sin that they've committed has been satisfied, has been removed, has been taken care of.
51:13: So how can anybody then go to hell? Because it's been removed. Right, I see what you're saying there.
51:20: So how is it that from a limited atonement position, we escape eternal justification?
51:28: By eternal justification, we're not eternally justified in the sense that we're justified back then, because what happens is our sin that is removed at the cross, but we're not justified until we believe.
51:38: It's a now and a not yet. So Jesus removed our sin. That's why federal headship is necessarily part of the atoning work in concert with limited atonement.
51:48: Federal headship is the doctrine that the male represents the descendants. Jesus represented his people.
51:54: All that the Father gives me will come to me. The ones who are given to him by the Father are the ones who will come to him.
52:01: And so he took care of their sin. And it cannot be that he took care of everybody's sin, because if he did, then nobody could go to hell.
52:10: Since people do go to hell, they're judged, it's logically necessary to say that he only bore the sins of a certain group of people.
52:18: And so we would say that the blood of Christ, and this is what I say, I'm the one who says this, I don't know of anybody else who says it.
52:24: Doesn't mean other theologians haven't. But I say the blood of Christ is sufficient to cleanse all people of all sin.
52:32: But legally, he only bore the sin of the elect, because his only actual transfer of sin debt was of the elect.
52:41: And the way that the Puritans would say it is that it was sufficient for all, but effective for few.
52:50: Yeah, I say the blood of Christ, and I separated a little bit the blood of Christ from the legal transference, because sin's a legal problem and a legal debt.
52:59: Jesus said in John 19, 30, it is finished, to telestai in the Greek, which has been found on the bottom of ancient tax receipts, handwritten, a legal debt's been paid in full.
53:07: That's what it meant. And that's how it was used in many contexts. And so we have that, Jesus saying on the cross.
53:13: So he paid for it. Now his blood, because by the nature of it being God, divine, well, it's infinitely capable.
53:20: But if it's infinitely capable in that sense that it's combined with the payment of sin, well, then who's sin?
53:29: And here's another thing. It's a problem with open theism, is that the open theist can't really say which sins are imputed to Christ, because I'm gonna kill two, three birds with one stone here.
53:38: The idea of open theism is that God knows generically what'll happen in the future, but not specifically, because he can't know exhaustively and specifically the free will choices of all people throughout all time.
53:49: Otherwise you're not free, which is stupid. So I asked the open theist,
53:55: I say, well, then what sins were imputed to Christ 2 ,000 years ago of the people who specifically were gonna do various things later on?
54:04: And they really can't answer the question. Well, it's just generic sin. What does that mean? What's generic sin?
54:11: What is generic sin? No, it's actual sins that we have committed that have to be dealt with.
54:17: Not generic sin, sin is a generic thing. There's some sin out there in the world, let me catch you with my, okay, got some right here, some generic sin.
54:24: It doesn't make any sense. So when we understand that Jesus 2 ,000 years ago bore our sin in his body on the cross, 1
54:32: Peter 2 .24, and it says in Romans 6 .6, Romans 6 .8, that we're crucified with Christ, we died with Christ.
54:39: The only way we can, you know, I ask people, I say, when were you crucified with Christ? When you believe or when Jesus died on the cross?
54:45: And they say, we don't always believe, but I believe, and I say, no, no, no. You're crucified with him. You died with him,
54:53: Romans 6 .8, Romans 6 .6, Christ correctively. So when did he die? 2 ,000 years ago. So when did you die with him?
55:00: 2 ,000 years ago. When were you crucified with him? 2 ,000 years ago.
55:07: They can't get it because they don't understand biblical understanding. They don't understand biblical theology regarding the doctrine of federal headship. And the only way we could have died with him is if he represented us.
55:16: That's what federal headship is. So that means that the ones who were given to him by the father were the ones that he came to redeem or the sins that were imputed to him on the cross, and he canceled their sin debt at the cross,
55:27: Colossians 2 .14, not when you believe. So your sin debt is canceled at the cross.
55:32: God infallibly brings people that are elected for salvation and atoned for into the faith.
55:38: They are then justified by faith when they believe. So what I say is that 2 ,000 years ago, your sins were removed.
55:47: And when you believe, you're justified. So we have a person right here.
55:52: His sin was removed, taken away 2 ,000 years ago, and salvation occurred or justification occurred when you believe.
56:02: And it makes sense. We have a little more of an escape. Yeah, but one other question.
56:08: Like, if we're gonna say that Christ bore the sins of the elect only, he paid for the sins of the elect only, how do we escape, like, if we say that he only bore the sins of the elect, then how do we escape a commercial view of the atonement versus a penal substitutionary view?
56:27: Commercial view that he, what, generically bore the sin of everybody? No, no, commercial view would be like if Christ, like say sin was like canned goods in a grocery store, and Jesus came into the store and he was only gonna purchase certain items.
56:42: And so he gathered all these items up and he brings them to the front, and he pays a certain price for those items only.
56:48: And that would be a commercial understanding of the atonement. Commercial theory of the atonement.
56:56: By Anselm, that sin robbed God of his honor, therefore it's necessary to have God's honor restored by either punishing sinners or through an atonement.
57:05: God chose to atone by the death of Christ, which brought honor to God. The problem with this theory is that the motivation of God's atoning work is holiness rather than love.
57:14: And that's, it gets into compartmentalizing God. I'm not sure what the commercial theory is in that context.
57:25: It's that he only spilled a certain amount of blood, right? He only spilled enough -
57:30: No. To pay for the sins of the elect. No, well, when we say he only spilled a certain amount of blood, that's a meaningless kind of a statement because the human body only has so much volume of blood.
57:42: So what would it mean a certain amount of, you know? Well, okay, that he only bore
57:48: X amount of sin, or he only paid for X amount of sin, when he could have paid for more, would be the partial view.
57:56: A penal substitution - Well, yeah, I mean, he only paid for the sins of the elect as a limited amount of sin.
58:05: Right, right. But I think, and you brought up Owen's dilemma, I think is what it's called earlier, with if he only bore the sins of some of the people and so forth, the way that Owen laid it out, which
58:16: I agree with. I think people confuse that with a commercial understanding of the atonement, where Owen himself would have grounded the limitation of the atonement in the intention of the
58:27: Godhead. So he'd have pushed it back to the covenant of redemption and who it was that the father elected. And that was the ones who
58:35: Christ would procure their salvation - Yeah, make perfect sense. Right, but they would say that that work on the cross was sufficient to pay for all the sins of this world, plus an infinite amount of others.
58:49: It doesn't make any sense. It was, when people say it was sufficient for all on the cross, what does it mean?
58:56: In what way was it sufficient? Sure, I'll explain it real quick. So penal, if you look at the death that we owe as a penal debt, right?
59:05: God is the judge, we have to stand before in order to have judgment on our sin. Well, the judgment for that sin is death, right?
59:13: The wages of sin is death. So Christ paid that judgment with his death.
59:18: And the idea is that even if the elect consisted only of one person that had one sin, then the work that Christ did would have had to been the exact same that he did, right?
59:33: So - Exact same? Yeah, he would have had to done the exact same thing that he did, even if he had to pay for the sin of one person and that person only had one sin.
59:43: That make sense? I think so, but I don't see a differentiation between the penal substitutionary atonement theory, because it just, in limited atonement, it just says that Jesus only bore the sins of the elect.
59:53: That's a limited amount of sins. Right, I just really think that sometimes that gets pushed into the commercial view.
01:00:03: But anyway, I think we've seen that. I don't want to take up too much time with this. It was just something I wanted to talk about. That's all right,
01:00:08: I'm trying to understand the commercial view. It's what allows for, well,
01:00:15: I'm being told this and I didn't think it was. I think there's been some new look into hypothetical universalism, where the work of the cross was hypothetically, or is hypothetically available to all people because the atonement was made for all people in the sense that the work of the cross was sufficient for all people.
01:00:32: So the - No, no, no, I wouldn't buy that. He's a propitiation for our sins.
01:00:37: By definition, the atonement is a propitiation. The propitiation is the thing that turns away wrath. It doesn't make it possible.
01:00:43: It actually does remove it. So if it - That would be the argument that if it does remove it and you're gonna fall back into eternal justification, like the -
01:00:52: No, no, no. Born justified. They're born - No, they're not. For God legally. No, they're not. No, I've never thought that, eternal justification.
01:01:01: They don't even exist. How can they be justified? Well, people will say, well, then how could they have their sins borne?
01:01:08: That's a toughie. But I understand the idea of eternal justification because the problem is justification occurs upon belief.
01:01:19: So if they've not believed, they can't be justified. So there's a sense in which you could say they're eternally justified in the sense that God has decreed that they are to be justified.
01:01:30: And so in his mind, sufficiently, they have been, just as in Romans 8, 28, 29, those who be foreknew also predestined and also glorified.
01:01:42: And the word glorified, there's in the past tense, and that's a future thing. So God sees us as already having completed that in his mind because it's so complete and true.
01:01:51: So there could be in that sense that we're justified is guaranteed, even though in time it has not yet happened.
01:01:57: So it depends on, I think, what they mean by it. Yeah, I agree with that. And that's the way I've always explained it in the past.
01:02:03: It's always been that it is good as done when it was decreed in the
01:02:09: Godhead, right? So it's an already not yet type situation. Yes. It's realized temporally upon faith in Christ, which
01:02:18: I think that's a great way to do it. But lately I've been looking into the atonement itself more, and I just had some questions about it, and that's kind of,
01:02:27: I wanted to lay my views out and see what you thought, so. Yeah. Yeah, I think the way to weave through some of the issues is to be more precise in our definitions in those kind of, with those kind of things.
01:02:42: It's more sophisticated discussions, getting more nuanced concepts on the nature. But limited atonement makes perfect sense, to me at any rate, because sin's a legal debt, the legal debt's transferred, the legal debts are canceled.
01:02:55: At the cross, the wages of sin is death, it's done. So who'd he do? If he paid for the sins of everybody, then that means that all their sin debts canceled.
01:03:03: They can't go to hell. Well, see, and they would also push back to like John chapter one, where it says that John the
01:03:11: Baptist preached that, or John two, actually, no, John one. John one, John one 19 through 28.
01:03:20: But anyway, it's when John the Baptist preached that here's the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.
01:03:26: Yeah, John one 29. Yeah, single, rather. Then I ask, when I ask, did he take away the sin of those who are damned?
01:03:37: Conditioned upon faith would be. It doesn't say that, but it doesn't say that. Right. It says he takes it away.
01:03:43: Presently, he takes it away of the whole world. That's one question. Well, did he take away of the people who were in hell?
01:03:50: And the answer has to be no. Right, they would say conditioned upon faith. And then, but a minute ago, we made the.
01:03:56: That's irrelevant here. We made a conditional on faith as well, right? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
01:04:02: It's not realized until faith happens. No, John one 29. He takes away the sin of the world. Now, there's two questions that need to be asked here.
01:04:10: What does it mean to take away the sins of those people in hell? And what does the word world mean? They're gonna be saying that means every individual.
01:04:18: If it means every individual who's ever lived, then he takes away the sin of every individual whoever's lived.
01:04:25: Right, and this is where Owen comes into play because that's Owen's dilemma once again. So, and remember that I told you, because it's hard not to get
01:04:33: Owen confused with the commercial aspect of the atonement. He would say that that limitation of who it was that the sin was taken away is only limited in the intention of the
01:04:43: Godhead, in eternity in their decree in the covenant of redemption.
01:04:50: So, the limitation comes there and not in the work itself of Christ on the cross. Now, that's an interesting thing because that's what
01:04:56: I've been wondering, that kind of a thing. Because what does it mean to actually pay someone's sin or debt?
01:05:07: So, if you and I are in a restaurant and we overhear someone, a mom with two kids and she lost her wallet and the manager's getting upset and we just say, hey, let's pull our money and pay your debt.
01:05:16: We pay the meal, right? So, we can understand what that is. It's a limited debt payment. We're not paying for everybody in the restaurant.
01:05:23: So, we can understand that there's an abstraction it's an intention in that we are paying that debt, but it works out in the real world of putting cash down for this theoretical thing called debt that she's incurred for food at a restaurant.
01:05:43: Well, this is all abstraction. And so, we're making real time of it. Well, how does that work with God?
01:05:50: That Jesus only bore. This is a question I was, these people who are against limited atonement could ask the question, what does it mean to bear the sin?
01:05:59: I think they should ask the question. What does it mean to bear the sin? Which it works either way.
01:06:06: Jesus can't, is he bearing an abstraction? Or is there this intention of God only for the elect?
01:06:16: What does this mean that he bore our sin in his body? Or what about 1
01:06:21: Samuel 3, 14, where it says, God says, I've sworn that the house of Eli will not have the sins iniquity atoned for by sacrifice or offering forever.
01:06:34: What does that mean? You really think about these terms. What does it mean when the high priest would go in and takes blood and sprinkle it on the mercy seat?
01:06:42: And then they were propitiated to the people of Israel. What's happening conceptually, intentionally?
01:06:49: I think these are good conversations to have. I don't know all the answers, but I do know spiritually something happened.
01:06:57: And it only makes sense to say that he bore the sin of the elect, which means there has to be an intentional accounting of that person right there, just the same as you and I pay that bill of the woman at that table, but not the bill of the next table.
01:07:13: We're actually doing that. So I think there's a similar occurrence in the spiritual realm, which
01:07:18: I can't prove or describe, but that's it. This issue of the abstraction of the nature of the atonement
01:07:24: I've been thinking about recently. And I'm coming up to raise more questions than I can answer right now. True, true.
01:07:30: See, I'm in that same boat, right? So I think that when we look at it from the perspective of the limitation comes in the
01:07:37: Godhead, right? In the covenant of redemption. So like I said, the father chooses the people to elect, the son is sent to procure their salvation and the spirit applies that salvation.
01:07:48: So if we put the limitation in the intention of the Godhead rather than in the work of the cross, then we can allow for the work of the cross to actually be sufficient without having to do it in some commercial way.
01:08:00: But what does it mean to be efficient? And I'm gonna ask a bunch of questions and it's not to be just annoying.
01:08:09: It's what does it mean to be efficient? I mean, these are questions I would ask myself if I was doing an article.
01:08:15: Okay, what does it mean to be efficient? What does it mean to bear our sins? What does it mean to cancel the debt?
01:08:20: What does it mean to have a sin debt? I mean, these are things, I gotta work through these things because the answers to those things are gonna provide a better holistic answer.
01:08:32: But I don't know if it's worth it. And furthermore, I don't know how really valuable it is to argue about limited atonement to begin with.
01:08:41: Yeah, I agree with you. I agree with you on that. Now, some of this started when I looked into Calvin's understanding of the atonement because a lot of people try to put
01:08:50: Calvin on one side of the particular redemption debate which is really anachronistic. He never wrote of the atonement.
01:08:57: There was a formula called the Lombardian formula that was the formula of the day and it allowed for the sufficiency of the atonement but only efficacious for the elect.
01:09:08: So it wasn't until 27 years after Calvin passed that his successor in Theodore Beza started the whole particular debate because he took that formula of Lombard and it had a preposition in it.
01:09:19: He was a Latin linguist. And he said, when he saw the preposition that says for because it had that the
01:09:25: Christ died for, he said, that can only apply to the elect. And that sparked the whole particular universal debate of the atonement.
01:09:36: So the Lombardian formula is what's used for the reform today to bring in the model that Christ's death is sufficient for all but only efficacious for the elect.
01:09:49: It can only be efficacious if there was somehow, some way an intentioned,
01:09:58: I see this, we get it too, it's too abstract. Just, I guess, too many abstractions on this.
01:10:07: Yeah, well, look into it more and check out if you have some access to some journal articles, there's one called
01:10:12: The Forgotten. Let's see, how's it worded? I'm outside, sorry.
01:10:18: My kids, if I go outside, my kids will be too loud. So I'm not on my computer, but it's called
01:10:23: The Forgotten Understanding Atonement of Calvin, I think.
01:10:30: It's a really good journal article by Ruwals, I believe it's got, it's a really good article on it.
01:10:37: And just check it out sometime. It'd be worth checking out. Yeah, I've been thinking more and more about this whole thing.
01:10:44: And your questioning, or our comments together,
01:10:50: I should say, are broaching that issue. Yeah, seriously.
01:10:59: All right, well, I enjoyed the conversation, Matt. Me too. All right, so before we get, we got another
01:11:08: Roman Catholic who's in here, before we add him in. Oh yeah, please. He's, his name is
01:11:14: D .L., we'll have to ask what his real name is. Matt, you got something new from MyPillow this week, haven't you?
01:11:21: Yes. Hold on one second. So, so, so Matt got himself the new
01:11:31: MyPillow. Sorry about that, okay, yes, I did. I got a new bed topper thing, yep.
01:11:38: Yeah, and so, and you know, folks who listen regularly, you know that we are, we're supported here by MyPillow.
01:11:46: And check out this picture, man. Let me share something on my screen here. This is some of our listeners who got themselves a new
01:11:53: MyPillow. And what they said they actually loved about it was, what was included was some scripture references in the box.
01:12:02: So, but they are very happy MyPillow customers, as you and I are.
01:12:09: And so, you got the new pillow topper. Yes, I did. You're gonna have to wait to use that.
01:12:17: Yes, and why am I gonna have to wait to use it? Because you're too old to put it on your bed, that's.
01:12:23: No, actually, my, yeah, I actually used it one night, got up,
01:12:29: I feel good, it's nice, it's really great. I bent down to pick up two socks, and my back went out.
01:12:38: And it's been happening more frequently the older I get. And I'm gonna have to do something to strengthen it.
01:12:44: So I'm gonna wait a few days, put it back on and stuff. I'm only starting to be able to walk again by myself without a cane or something, just today.
01:12:55: It was bad. I was crawling on the floor yesterday to get her out.
01:13:01: It's the only way you can move around. Hey, look, folks, getting old is not for sissies.
01:13:09: So, folks, we do love our MyPillows. It's not just that they're a product that they advertise on MatzLikLive.
01:13:17: We really do like it. We really enjoy our pillows. And both of us have taken them on trips.
01:13:22: I take them on almost every trip. I'm probably gonna have to figure out how to fit it in because I'm probably limited in size when
01:13:29: I go to the Philippines, but I'm gonna have to bring it to the Philippines. You have to get one of those suction things out and whatever, you gotta figure it out.
01:13:36: Comes, no, they come with it. They come, at least mine did, came with the travel bag that you roll it up and so it vacuums it out.
01:13:44: And it's amazing because it sucks out all the air and then all you gotta do is open that bag, shake out the pillow, and it's firm.
01:13:49: It's ready to go. Amazing. So if you wanna get a MyPillow like Matt and I, you can call 1 -800 -944 -5396.
01:13:59: That's 1 -800 -944 -5396. Let them know that you heard about it on Apologetics Live and make sure you get yourself a
01:14:08: MyPillow. And so with that, I'm gonna add DL into the group here, into the room.
01:14:15: Let me make sure his volume is up. You can unmute yourself. And I don't know what his real name is, so if he could tell us his real name when he unmutes himself.
01:14:28: Excuse me. I don't know that I can unmute him. I can't. Well, that's gonna be a really short discussion if you don't unmute yourself.
01:14:37: We're gonna type his question in. Yeah. Well, he was a more, you had a question for him there.
01:14:44: There he goes. No, no, I thought he did. That's someone else coming in? No, I thought he had.
01:14:53: DL, are you there? We'll give you a couple more seconds. And if not, maybe he walked away and we'll go to train the thought who just came in.
01:15:01: Yeah, he's been texting with me, DL. Perhaps he was like me. Initially, I didn't see that little navigation bar at the top with the microphone with the slash in it.
01:15:11: Perhaps. Yeah, he's on a phone, so. Oh, I see, okay.
01:15:17: What you have to do if you're listening and you're trying to figure it out, just tap the screen and it should be a microphone button.
01:15:23: I think it comes up as red when you have it muted and you just gotta click the microphone button and start talking.
01:15:31: I'm glad you said that. I would have never figured it out on my phone. Yeah, so what we'll do is
01:15:39: I will add in train of thought. I know he's been commenting online on Google and there's
01:15:49: Cameron taping up another box of books for me. Thank you, Cameron. That was loud.
01:15:55: Yeah, well, you know. Oh, God, it's horrible. So for folks to know,
01:16:01: I was texting Cameron over there and trying to get Cameron to come up behind Matt and choke
01:16:07: Matt out live for everyone to watch. Thumb poke him in the eyeball. I react, when people do things to me automatically,
01:16:16: I just do an aggressive thing. I laid my brother out once, he did that and I was just telling Cameron about it.
01:16:22: Maybe he's, I don't know. Anyway, go ahead. So yeah, so DL said, Andrew, yes to accept or reject.
01:16:29: Well, just, I guess. I'm not sure what he's asking.
01:16:36: Just unmute yourself. Not sure what he's asking with the accept or reject.
01:16:47: So we're gonna go, we'll go over to train of thought.
01:16:52: Let me make sure his volume is up. So train of thought, you can unmute yourself. There you go.
01:17:00: Okay, hello, can you all hear me? Yeah, we hear you. That's good, that's good. I was just texting in the chat and I had a question, right?
01:17:10: And it might sound, like it might have sounded dumb. I don't know, but I was just curious as to why persecution exists.
01:17:21: Like what does God use that for? Because, you know, I see loneliness and persecution in these things.
01:17:29: And it makes me curious, because I really, I don't know how God can use those things in a good way.
01:17:34: God can use persecution in several ways. One, to bring about his will. Sometimes when people are persecuted, they suffer.
01:17:40: And when they suffer, they cry out to God. And that's a good thing. Sometimes people suffer and are persecuted because there's greater reward for them in heaven based on that.
01:17:52: Sometimes we are persecuted because we need to be purified in the church. And that's another good thing.
01:17:58: People are persecuted because that's the nature. Yeah, that's a good key, that's right. Thanks. What book is that that should go to me?
01:18:09: To the stars? Star Trek. By George Takei. Wow. And it's autographed.
01:18:16: And he wrote, you know, to Matt, to me. And I have a letter from him too.
01:18:23: So persecution can be used by God for different reasons, but it's often to purify.
01:18:31: And plus, there's just a nature of unrighteousness persecutes righteousness.
01:18:38: And it's just part of the nature of how it all works. So there's some of the reasons.
01:18:47: I guess I can kind of understand that. It's difficult because it's a painful thing.
01:18:54: And for the most part, it's like, it's not good. I guess there can be some good in it.
01:19:00: Oh yeah. One of the things I've been thinking about recently is, you know, we don't want to suffer here.
01:19:08: Now, what if hypothetically, you know, we existed before we came to earth? We don't. But let's just say, you know, this is the case just for an issue of discussion.
01:19:21: And God said, look, I can arrange it, your life, so that you have a really nice life. It'll be comfortable. You won't be persecuted.
01:19:28: Or I can arrange your life to be, have some difficulties and persecution. But in that persecution, you'll be praising my name and glorifying me.
01:19:36: And the result will be a higher reward in heaven, a greater reward in heaven. Which would you pick?
01:19:44: Me, I would, there'd be no hesitation. Let me pick that which will bring greatest glory to you and greatest reward.
01:19:50: I would admit I want that forever versus 70, 80 years of life.
01:19:56: So persecution is a small fraction of eternity. And it can be used to glorify
01:20:02: God, to purify us, to bring about his will, also to demonstrate the goodness of good and the evilness of evil and things like that.
01:20:13: There's lots of reasons. Okay. Cameron's awesome back there working for, help, he's a great guy.
01:20:23: And I, oh, he could hear me say that, dang it. No, he's such a great guy.
01:20:28: He and I are shipping those books to me. So he is a great guy. I like Cameron a lot. Oh, you all want my books, huh?
01:20:35: Maybe, you know, I could ship a lot of them out to people. I got way too many. So did you have more train of thought that you were, you sounded like you unmuted yourself there for a second?
01:20:46: Yeah, I was just saying that was a good proposition when you put forth about, you know, having eternal life and going through suffering compared to having, you know, no pain in this life and then dying, you know.
01:21:01: Right. That was a good proposition. Yeah. And I wondered about that, you know,
01:21:06: I mean, what's the greatest good for us? Is your best life now the greatest good for us?
01:21:12: Or is the greatest good for us closer to Jesus forever?
01:21:21: There's no comparison. I know what the greatest good is and I know exactly what I want. I want to be with him.
01:21:27: If it means I got to suffer more here, then so be it. So that's how
01:21:34: I see it. All right, anything else, train of thought? No, nothing at the moment.
01:21:44: That was the main question and I, thanks. All right, I'm just gonna, cause you get some kids in the background,
01:21:50: I'm gonna turn you down and DL, I turned you up. If you want to go ahead and ask your question now.
01:21:56: I don't have any questions. Okay, what's your name? What's my name? I don't know,
01:22:02: I don't feel really comfortable saying it. Call you D, so are you a Roman Catholic?
01:22:08: Yes. Yeah, but is there any point in talking about that? What? You're a
01:22:18: Roman Catholic, right? Yes. Okay, if you were to die right now, where would you go?
01:22:24: He sounds very familiar. You wouldn't happen to argue for Jesus being a
01:22:32: Asian, would you? No. Oh, wait a minute. Are you
01:22:39: Ben? Yeah. He sounds very similar. I don't know why.
01:22:48: Same guy as last week. That's what I'm thinking. Yeah. Maybe he came back with notes. Why do you think so?
01:22:54: I mean. Yeah, same guy as last week. So when are we gonna move along and have a conversation with some others?
01:23:05: Yes, really. So you said I'm the same guy as a guy from last week. You certainly sound like it.
01:23:10: What do you think, Andrew? It sounds like someone trying to get a little bit of a deeper voice, but the same inflections on certain words.
01:23:21: I agree, and I took notes. All right, let's just move along then.
01:23:27: All right. We'll go over to John. I'll bring
01:23:32: John in. And he can, oh, let me turn him up here. He was down.
01:23:38: You can unmute yourself, John. I already have. How are you guys doing? Doing all right,
01:23:44: John. Buddy, how are you doing, man? Exhausted. I'm telling you, man. The work of a postal carrier is tough.
01:23:51: You're a postal carrier? Yeah. That's what he does. That's what Cameron does. Oh, right on.
01:23:57: Yeah. And let's just - That's why he's in good shape. He can keep working. Yeah, but it looks like he probably walks a lot.
01:24:05: I don't. I'm gonna be driving a truck, so. Okay, well, that's good. Anyway.
01:24:12: Hey, I came across a situation where somebody told me basically about the whole issue about Calvinism and how it's related with double predestination.
01:24:29: And I've always thought that that's a straw man. And I mentioned that in one of the groups that I was in on Facebook.
01:24:35: And they all said, no, that's not a straw man. That's actually accurate. So I was wondering, was
01:24:41: I missing something there? I mean, double predestination is when somebody, when
01:24:48: God predestines people to hell. Is that the true
01:24:54: Calvinism stance? There are a lot of Calvinists who hold to it and I lean towards it.
01:25:00: Okay. And - I mean, I have no problem with it, but I'm just kind of wondering what exactly is the official
01:25:09: Calvinistic position? Well, you can be Calvinist, have different views on things.
01:25:14: Like I'm a Calvinist who believes in the continuation of the gifts. Not all Calvinists do. Some Calvinists are dispensational, some are not.
01:25:21: So you can have, what's the official? Well, we would just say basically that that there's a variety of beliefs within reform theology that would allow people different views.
01:25:39: But nevertheless, God does say in Proverbs 16, four, he makes all things, even the wicked for the day of destruction.
01:25:45: So that's what he says. That implies double predestination right there. You go to Romans 9, 22.
01:25:52: What if God, although willing to demonstrate his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
01:26:00: Well, the implication is there that he prepared them for destruction. So we do have verses for that.
01:26:07: First Peter two, eight. Jesus is a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word.
01:26:16: And to this doom, they were also appointed. Now, what does it mean they were appointed beforehand?
01:26:22: Or does it mean they were appointed because they are rejecting God? But it says a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense.
01:26:30: And to this doom, they were appointed. So it's a bit of a difficult thing to kind of easily get out.
01:26:39: At least that verse, I don't use that verse for that very often, but since we're talking about, that's another verse that is kind of implied there.
01:26:48: Double predestination, actually, it is the standard Calvinist stance, but it gets misunderstood.
01:26:57: It doesn't mean, a lot of times it gets conflated with what's called equal ultimacy.
01:27:04: So from our standpoint, it's just this. It is that God has elected a people and by electing a people, he has passed over some.
01:27:13: So he's predestined those to salvation. And because he's predestined these and passed over those, then the others are predestined to damnation.
01:27:22: That doesn't mean that, equal ultimacy would mean that the way that he predestines the elect, that he works in their lives, the spirit comes and applies salvation, the regeneration, this and that, that on the other side of the coin, he actively reprobates the non -elect, which is not a, that's a heretical stance.
01:27:43: Equal ultimacy is heretical. So it's just, double predestination is just that because God elects a people and passes over the others, then he has predestined them.
01:27:52: Yeah, so it's somewhat of a logical conclusion that people come up to. Because, but the real thing that it's the starting point for people is that not neutral and not heaven.
01:28:04: The starting point is because of the sin nature, their starting point is deserving hell. Yeah. That's the starting point.
01:28:11: And so the idea that people will have with double predestination is that if God elected some, he chose some to be redeemed, therefore, by definition, they would say, he therefore, by not electing some, elected the others to be damned.
01:28:29: That's basically the argument. And where it comes into play is people will say, okay, but then you have people who will say, but God can't tempt.
01:28:40: And so they will use that verse typically I've seen to argue against it. I would not hold in double predestination in the sense where God selects some and says, okay, you're gonna be damned and then selects others and says, you're going to be elect.
01:28:57: They're all damned and he selects some to be elect. Amen. Now that makes a lot more sense,
01:29:04: Andrew. That makes, yeah, much more sense. So then those two who don't hold to like original sin, they're the ones who really have their theology really wonky.
01:29:16: Oh yeah. Well, they would have a problem, sure. Yeah. So when people ask me about this, what
01:29:22: I'll do is I'll say, well, what God absolutely does actively do is elect people to salvation.
01:29:29: Then the question is, does he actively force people into damnation?
01:29:35: Well, that's the question. Is there an active work or a passive work of God? He could actively fix it so they aren't saved, but by doctrine of total depravity, they already are not saved.
01:29:47: So how could he forcibly, so to speak, or actively bring them to that place of not being saved? The only place in the scripture that I could find that would support that would be
01:29:57: Jesus speaking in parables so people will not be saved. And it seems to be in Mark 4, 10 through 12, where he says that, that there seems to be an active choice there.
01:30:07: But then again, what's the context? The context is Jesus is speaking with people. And since he's
01:30:13: God in flesh and people are the, he has the elect whom he's come to save, the ones given to him by the father,
01:30:19: John 6, 37. Well, then if that's the case, then if he were to tell people to be saved who were not elect, they'd have to be saved.
01:30:26: So they're not elect. So he speaks in parables so they won't get saved. And so you go, okay, wait a minute, how does that work?
01:30:33: And so it can get a little complicated. And so on Tuesday, I lean towards a real positive, active double predestination.
01:30:44: And on Thursday, I lean more towards a passive double predestination.
01:30:49: And sometimes on Friday, I'm trying to decide which one again. And it's because the scriptures are not exactly clear.
01:30:57: And how you define things, of course, can have an emphasis on which part you're gonna take a look at.
01:31:03: But equal ultimacy deals with the issue of God actively choosing. You're gonna go to hell, I want you to go to hell.
01:31:08: But if you have five people and you only choose two out of the five in a sense you're choosing the other three not to be with you.
01:31:18: But are you? And so it's just not easy. It's not an easy discussion.
01:31:25: Well, and I think part of the problem in the discussion is all of us here are creatures bound by time.
01:31:33: We think within timeframes and God is not. He is eternal. And therefore he's outside of time.
01:31:40: He can work within time. He's omniscient. We're not, we learn through observation.
01:31:46: And this is a big thing. Everything that we learn, we learn through observation.
01:31:53: God never learned anything. He knows everything. And there's a huge difference between those two.
01:31:58: And we cannot comprehend that thinking. So what we try to do is in our finite minds that are bound by time that have to learn things, we end up in a position where we're trying to understand an infinite mind who's omniscient.
01:32:15: I tried that once. How'd it work? Yeah, I got down the infinite long trail.
01:32:23: I got down about three feet and then my brain went. But I mean, that's really where a lot of this comes down.
01:32:31: We are trying in our finite minds to comprehend the infinite and we can't, and we explain it that we bet, we try the best we can to explain these things.
01:32:43: But a lot of times what happens is in the explanation of the terms, people then draw conclusions from those explanations that may not have initially been there.
01:32:55: I mean, Calvin never explained double predestination. Those were from his followers that argued for that.
01:33:01: And it was a logical conclusion they came to. Understandably. But the question is, does the scripture support that?
01:33:09: Well, I don't think so. It supports that he's in control of all things. It supports that he's sovereign.
01:33:17: But when we talk about it, we often talk about it as if God is observing us and reacting to what he observes or that he is bound by time, as if, you know, in time
01:33:32: I do this and then this happens. And so those things are things we have to think through to realize that that's where a lot of this problem ends up occurring from.
01:33:41: Right. Yeah, that was one thing I came across also is if God is omniscient, then he would obviously know who goes to heaven and who goes to hell.
01:33:49: If that's the truth, if that's the case, then. It was not just an issue of him knowing who goes to hell because that's implying
01:33:58: I'm writing on boxes. That implies then that he's looking into the future to see what's gonna happen.
01:34:05: Okay. Well, yeah, and this goes all the way back to the, this goes all the way back to the charge against the
01:34:13: Calvinists with the problem of evil, right? So a Calvinist would make the claim, we would make a claim called an asymmetry claim.
01:34:19: So we would give God all the glory for anything good and none of the blame for anything bad. And that's where the charge stems from, which there are a number of different ways to answer that charge.
01:34:32: But I think it's where it comes from. I myself don't have a problem with holding to a double predestination when it's properly understood.
01:34:38: And I think that Matt was in the exact right place with the active versus passive. There's another way to explain it is the causation of God, that it's a hyperphysical compared to our physical.
01:34:53: So it's a problem that, or a question that comes up quite often. There's been a lot of ink spilled over it.
01:35:00: Yeah, there has been. It's not an easy one. It's just not an easy one. And I don't wanna sound like, hey,
01:35:05: I can't solve it, so I'm just gonna make it up. And I don't know what I'm talking about. No, it's just, you get down to these discussions and it can, like I said, on Tuesday, I'm this way, on Thursday, I'm that way.
01:35:17: And what I mean is, you really think through these things, you're gonna come up with some variables in them.
01:35:23: How deeply you think about particular instances or definitions within it. But just like what he was saying,
01:35:30: I agree, the active or passive issue of predestination of the non -elect. We know that God is actively predestining the elect.
01:35:39: Does he need to actively un -predestined or reprobate the unbelievers? Isn't it need to?
01:35:45: No, not at all. Not at all. And it's actually gonna, it'll all work back to, if you go back far enough to it, to the claim that determinism is incompatible with moral responsibility.
01:35:58: So that's where it'll end up getting back to, because they're like, well, if God has determined that all of these people do
01:36:03: X, Y, or Z, then there's no way that they can be held morally responsible, which is completely wrong.
01:36:12: Right. I was gonna say, Chris, you know, I enjoy your input.
01:36:18: You're more educated about this stuff than I thought you were. I mean that in a good way though, because it's not used to people nailing these things so well, so good for you.
01:36:29: But - I've been in seminary for a little over three years now. Yeah? Which seminary are you going? That's right,
01:36:35: I forgot. SBTS, Southern Baptist Theological. Oh man, well, close.
01:36:42: Close. And I've done a lot of research into the whole determinism versus indeterminism argument, libertarian free will versus compatibilism.
01:36:53: So I've really got a good solid base there. He's now following after Leighton Flowers and he's -
01:37:02: No, no, no, you're not. Don't tell me, Chris, you're following for Leighton Flowers. Who you been talking to,
01:37:07: Andrew? That would be bad. I like Leighton. I've known Leighton. I've known and interacted with Leighton now for probably close to eight years.
01:37:15: So, a lot of people get on me, but - I just want to get Chris triggered. I do enjoy talking to him, but I want him to see, because this whole deal with libertarian free will, it really gets me going, because the indeterminist takes libertarian free will and they say that is just necessary for more responsibility.
01:37:34: And then when they go to argue against the compatibilist, they will say, since determinism is incompatible with libertarian free will, which it is, we'll agree with that, that means that compatibilism in a deterministic framework is wrong.
01:37:49: But see, they beg the question from the outset, because that's the question, is what type of freedom is necessary for more responsibility?
01:37:56: And so they beg the question from the outset and then they come with charges that include a lot of equivocations.
01:38:02: And I've explained all this to Leighton and actually to a few others, some philosophers, some that have some
01:38:09: PhDs in philosophy. And I had some really good talks with them about that, but they just don't want to see it, even though the top proponents of libertarian free will admit that it's just assumed, right?
01:38:21: It's an intuition, right? It's intuitive. And that's what they claim, but they claim that since we don't ascribe to that intuition, then our system must be wrong.
01:38:31: Well, let me ask you this, Chris, in John 5, 19 and 30,
01:38:36: I'll read them to you here in a second, Jesus says, but I ask people, did Jesus have free will? And they'll say, yes.
01:38:43: Okay, what kind? And they'll say, well, libertarian. Okay, great. Jesus says, truly, truly,
01:38:49: I say to you, the Son of God can do nothing of himself unless it is something that he sees a father doing.
01:38:54: For whatever the father does, he thinks the son does in like manner. So Jesus can do nothing of himself.
01:39:00: In verse 30, I can do nothing on my own initiative. Wait a minute.
01:39:06: If he had libertarian free will, he has to be able to do everything on his own initiative. So if Jesus has free will and it was libertarian, how then can it also be that he said,
01:39:16: I can do nothing of my own initiative? Right, that's actually an argument that Guilherme Bignon uses in his book,
01:39:24: Excusing Sinners and Blaming God. If you haven't read that, Matt, that would be a really good pickup. It's probably the best money
01:39:30: I've spent on a book in five years. And what's the name of the book? It's called Excusing Sinners and Blaming God.
01:39:37: Oh, I think I've heard of that. It's amazing, it really is. Okay, let's see if we've already got it or not.
01:39:45: Excusing God, no, Excusing Sinners, Blaming God. Yeah, it's a play off of the
01:39:50: Romans. The two questions that Paul anticipates in Romans, right? Is there unrighteousness in God, which would be blaming
01:39:58: God? And then, well, if all do is will, then why does he find a fault, right?
01:40:03: So Excusing Sinners. Yeah, I did buy it, I did buy it on Kindle. It's excellent, it's really excellent.
01:40:14: Yeah, oh, I already have been reading through it. Jeez, I got so many. About that thing,
01:40:20: Matt's getting old. Look at all this stuff, I've already read through a lot of it, I got stuff highlighted.
01:40:26: Matt, what did you have for breakfast this morning? Eggs, I had scrambled eggs, or four of them, with two pieces of toast buttered and a glass of water, and I sat next to the water cooler on the table on the far side next to the refrigerator.
01:40:41: And I made Anik two eggs and a waffle, which I put butter in from her dish that was not contaminated with my butter because of wheat issues.
01:40:53: Bam, bam. Now ask me what I had for lunch. What'd you have for lunch,
01:41:01: Matt? Four pieces of pizza, which my wife ordered because the guys were here working, and she did, she got man pizza.
01:41:08: It had really nice chunks of sausage, really nice chunks of sausage, with pepperoni, and we had,
01:41:16: I had like seven or eight, I shouldn't have that many, cinnamon roll things and a couple of garlic bread little things, with some more water.
01:41:28: So, hey Matt, check this out. This is what was just sent to me. Someone's gonna send me this for me.
01:41:34: You're gonna ship this up to me. What exactly is, are we looking at right there? That's Kittler.
01:41:42: Hey, Kittler's right here. Look at this, he says you got that right there. Look, hold on a sec. Our place is trash, we're moving.
01:41:50: There he is, that's Kittler. Oh, look what he did. Where's Kittler? I don't see him.
01:41:56: I don't see the cat anywhere. Okay, hold on. There we go. I see a mess,
01:42:02: I don't see a cat. It's a mess, all right. There he is, right, see him? There he is.
01:42:10: So, I was just told that that's coming my way. I should be receiving. Why is, why is he called
01:42:17: Kittler? Because he has a mustache and a hair part like Hitler. Yeah, and he makes the other cats bow down to him and go, meow, meow.
01:42:27: That's right, that is so true. Oh, I'm messing this up. Speaking of pictures and stuff like that, did you see the one of the baptism
01:42:33: I did Saturday? Yeah, with the big foot. Find that, I meant to open the show with that.
01:42:41: Where is that? That was fun, it was so stupid. You said that to me, right? You gotta get that up on screen and share that.
01:42:51: That was great. Okay, let's see if I can find it really fast. I can't find that now. I got it right there.
01:42:56: Okay, share screen, ready? Here we go, share screen. So, I'll describe this while you put it up there.
01:43:06: Okay, so that is from, it says Believe, and it's a picture of Matt Slick after he went into the water on a cold day.
01:43:13: 43, 43 degree water. 43 degree water, and if you look at the picture on Matt's face, it looks just like a picture of Bigfoot.
01:43:23: And my left arm, we were goofing around after the baptism. Oh, it was so cold, it really was.
01:43:29: My legs stopped working for like an hour. We went over to Nathan's house, so we're all eating sandwiches and a whole bit and everything, and the guy
01:43:39: I baptized, his girlfriend took that picture, and she just goes, hey, she didn't know she could.
01:43:45: She goes, I took it by accident, and she showed us, and we're just howling. It was so stupid, right?
01:43:52: And she thought it was funny. And then, you were there, right,
01:43:57: Cameron? When - Yeah, I was the one. They were showing the picture on the phone, and I go, hey, look at this, Nathan. Yeah, we can't hear
01:44:03: Cameron. What? Hold on, sit here a second. We can't see him either.
01:44:10: Yeah, so we were at Nathan's house, and somebody showed me that picture, like, oh, look at this hilarious picture where Matt's all cold, but she was kind of embarrassed that it might make
01:44:21: Matt embarrassed, so she was gonna delete it. I'm like, no, they got a picture of Bigfoot. And I showed it to Nathan, showed it to a couple others, and after Matt started laughing, one of the other guys sitting down there did the dual picture with Bigfoot and the
01:44:34: Believe while we were sitting there. Yeah, that's good. So, as Matt drops his microphone.
01:44:45: Yeah, but it was so stinking funny that everybody was belly laughing. It was just one of those stupid, fun things, you know.
01:44:52: Hey, look at Cameron doing what Matt can't do, picking up that box and just walking away. He can't pick up right now.
01:44:58: I mean, I can't change the world, yeah, that's true. All right. So, anyways, I just wanna say thanks, guys, for the answers and all that, and Chris is definitely one of the guys who
01:45:08: I handpicked for the council at the very beginning, so, yeah, he is definitely someone who
01:45:16: I cherish a lot when it comes to these kind of questions. Before I go,
01:45:21: I'm gonna let everybody know I'm gonna start the after show. What's that? It sounds like Chris is coming more and more to my views on more things.
01:45:29: Before you know it, he's gonna be dispensational. If he keeps studying. Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey.
01:45:34: I don't know if Tyler Vellick can do it. If you wanna keep him dispensational, just go to lds .org. Wow. I mean, that's not even like logically valid, but hey.
01:45:48: No, they're dispensationalists. All right. I was gonna point out that this is probably the only time where Andrew actually has more books than Matt.
01:46:00: No, actually, and the reason for this is that I have way more books.
01:46:05: However, Matt will also admit that he has given away a lot of his books over the years.
01:46:12: No, you mean hardcover books. You have more books on Lagos. That really doesn't kind of count. Well, yeah,
01:46:17: Lagos, I totally have more than you, but oh, you'll love this one, Matt. This was funny. So we're at a shepherds conference and we're sitting there and a pastor was telling me his books in Lagos.
01:46:30: And so he was telling me, he's like, yeah, I have like, I forget what it was, like 6 ,000 books in Lagos.
01:46:36: And I just sat there and looked at him and the other guys looked at me and he realized there's something that was up looking at me.
01:46:47: And I go, yeah, I have like 51 ,000. And he's just like, what? But no,
01:46:54: I do have more books than Matt. It's just that Matt's given a bunch away. He hadn't even seen the stuff in the garage.
01:47:02: I've got boxes of books in the garage and I have shelves of books in the garage. Oh, but you haven't seen my basement.
01:47:09: And I got all my Kenneth Hagan and Kenneth Copeland. Oh yeah. So if there's a flood, like. Yeah, but that doesn't count,
01:47:15: Andrew. Yeah, those are real books. I'm trying to get rid of all of them. I'm gonna get rid of all of them. Matt has on his shelf, it's all
01:47:22: LDS stuff. He's got an entire bookcase just of LDS stuff. And it's all from their perspective.
01:47:29: So come on, are you gonna tell me that LDS is better than Kenneth Hagan and Kenneth Copeland?
01:47:36: They're on the same level. This is a book I've found recently on the, next to the trash can, which
01:47:43: I'm so enlisted. Matt, that is a perfect book to level up a table.
01:47:48: Yeah, so. There's no substance to it.
01:47:56: It's good that he actually found it, you know. Actually, we've got a few other shelf over there.
01:48:03: By the way. It really doesn't even look worn in. That reminds me guys,
01:48:08: I got a new book out now. That's right, you're supposed to mention that. Let's talk about your new devotional book.
01:48:14: You have a 30 day devotional book that just came out this week, I think, right? Yeah, you just said it, there you go.
01:48:21: Yeah. Traveling and forgot about it. So we can get that on karm .org.
01:48:29: I believe, let me go check. Matt should know if we can get it on Karm.
01:48:35: Where's the store? Let's go to karm .org slash 30 and it'll take you down to the page.
01:48:41: Or you go to Amazon and look up. I think it's on, let me see. 30 days.
01:48:48: Karm .org slash 30. See if it's there. If it's gone through there yet.
01:48:54: By Matt Slick. I'm scared. You can order that at karm .org
01:49:02: slash 30. $10 for 10 of them.
01:49:09: That's what comes in as default. So the price is a dollar a book? Is that right,
01:49:14: Matt? Wow, I don't know, Ken set it up. All right, it says get the new book from Karm.
01:49:21: 30 days of devotion for a donation of less than $10. You can edit the quantity, but the default quantity is 10.
01:49:31: So it's a dollar a book. Hey, that's pretty good. So get 10 and give them away. Better hurry up before it changes.
01:49:41: Yeah. So talk us through that book. What are we gonna learn in that book,
01:49:48: Matt? Devotion stuff. Yeah, I knew that was coming. And how many -
01:49:53: It's gonna logically sound devotional. How long will it take to get through that? Depends on how fast you read, but probably 30 days if you do one in a day.
01:50:02: Look at what Cameron is doing. That is classic. For folks who are not able to watch, Cameron moved the box to be right behind Matt's head so that he could pull the tape and Matt could hear it at its loudest.
01:50:17: That is very nice of Cameron. He's making sure that Matt hears the tape.
01:50:25: That's right. Yeah, because I have to write on them. We have a little code. Oh, no, it's not for the writing.
01:50:31: He did that. He was doing the tape further away before. He moved that box up close so that you could hear the full sound of that tape there going.
01:50:46: So that's pretty good. Yeah, SJWs, which one? So I don't know if any of you guys who are here have any other questions.
01:50:54: We got about 10 minutes left for the show, about eight minutes left. If anyone has anything, if not.
01:51:01: I have one more question. Wait, someone's talking, but I don't know who.
01:51:11: Let me see. I was just saying that I had - There we go. Yeah. Trina Thal, what's your name?
01:51:18: I didn't hear you. My name's Massimo. It's what? My real name. M -A -S -S -I -M -O,
01:51:24: Massimo. Massimo. And before you ask it, let me just give a quick shout out to Jason Manning who just gave $10 for Cameron to sneak up behind Matt and tape his head.
01:51:36: So - Not happening. Not a good idea. There it is. Someone gave $10 for you to sneak up behind Matt and tape the back of his head.
01:51:44: No, not happening. Okay. So, Massimo, I mispronounced it. Give it to me again.
01:51:51: Massimo. Massimo, okay. So what's your question?
01:51:58: I was just gonna ask, you know, and this is kind of related to the other question, but there might be a different answer.
01:52:05: So that's why I'm asking. Why does doubt, like, why does doubt exist?
01:52:13: And like, how would someone be able to handle a - Doubt exists because of our sin. So doubt, like, is there any benefit to having doubts?
01:52:25: Because like, when I look at the Bible, it doesn't seem like there's any benefit to having doubts. Well, we could say there's a benefit to doubt, but doubt is because of our sin.
01:52:33: But then when we doubt, we could make a choice to trust God anyway, even though we might doubt how things might work out.
01:52:40: And so we're trusting him above our doubts. So then that wouldn't be able to occur unless we were having the actual issue of doubting.
01:52:48: And then we could bring glory to him by saying, even though I doubt A, B, C, I'm gonna trust you, Lord, to work through that.
01:52:54: I don't know how it's gonna happen. I have my doubts, but I'm gonna trust you anyway. And so, you know, those kinds of things can happen.
01:53:03: I hear what you're saying. So you're saying that doubt would bring about more faith because there -
01:53:09: It could. I'm just saying in that particular, you know, thing, maybe that's a way to look at it, that it could be a good thing in that sense.
01:53:19: I'm not saying it is, but, you know. It's a possibility. I mean, there could be several reasons for doubt.
01:53:28: You know, doubt could cause you to go and study and research and figure out answers. Yeah. And that would strengthen your own thinking.
01:53:40: That's a good idea, yeah. So it's really, the question is, what do you do with the doubt?
01:53:45: What do you do when you have some of the things that you bring up and the struggles, do you run away or do you embrace them and deal with them?
01:53:56: You know, and I think, you know, scripture makes it clear, we should come and reason together. And so that's what we should do.
01:54:02: We shouldn't run away and turn our brain off. We should interact with it and ask, why are we having these doubts?
01:54:09: Most of the people, at least for believers, when it comes to doubt with their salvation, it is most often because of sin.
01:54:19: It's most often because there's sin in their life that is keeping them from wanting to read
01:54:24: God's word, to pray, and because of that, they're not, their doubt is caused because of sin in their life.
01:54:35: And really what they need to get rid of is the sin, you know, and start thinking right.
01:54:41: Yeah. Yep. Good stuff, man. So I hope that helps. We're gonna wrap up tonight.
01:54:49: And so folks, if you've, I hope this has been, it's been kind of a lot of different things tonight.
01:54:55: We've had a couple of trolls in tonight, but you know, we got to watch
01:55:01: Cameron work, do Matt's job. That's nice. I appreciate that, Cameron. That's awesome. Keep up the good work.
01:55:06: Yeah, he's like got all your books gone. Yeah, I'm gonna help him here a little bit if my back will let me. Yeah, don't be dumb.
01:55:13: Don't throw your back out more. So folks, some good sites for you.
01:55:19: If you're watching this live in the YouTube chat, you see our friend, Charlie, who puts out like probably about 1 ,000 different links to Karm.
01:55:29: He's got them all. Charlie is like the Karm master. I think he knows Karm better than Matt himself.
01:55:34: He's getting there. Yeah, he just knows where every article is on Karm and can just drop it in there.
01:55:40: He's dropping in right now some information for folks who wanna listen to Matt Slick Live and you can listen to Matt Slick Live Monday through Friday from six to seven
01:55:49: Eastern time. You can get the details at karm .org. You can, if you so choose, subscribe to the podcast,
01:55:58: Matt Slick Live. Just do a search for Matt Slick. It's hosted on Sermon Audio and you can just, actually you could search for Christian Apologetics Research Ministry or Matt Slick and that will come up.
01:56:12: You can also subscribe to my podcast, Andrew Rapport's Rap Report. There's two of them. There is a daily, which is
01:56:19: Monday through Friday, two minutes long and then there's a weekly that's usually about an hour long.
01:56:25: We just got another super chat from Jason Manning. He says, thank you for the show. God bless, praise
01:56:30: Jesus. So thank you, Jason, for that. I would say that for others who wanna do super chats,
01:56:36: I think there's a little dollar sign button down at the bottom. That's how you do it if you wanna donate and that donation goes to CARM.
01:56:44: That doesn't go to Striving for Eternity, but some ways you can support both
01:56:49: Matt and I or really our ministries, you could support CARM at carm .org and hit the donate button.
01:56:57: It would be good to donate monthly so that, because kind of the bills come in monthly. You can go to strivingforeternity .org
01:57:05: slash donate and donate there. That goes right to Striving for Eternity, both
01:57:11: CARM and Striving for Eternity, our 501c3 organizations. If you wanna support us at our
01:57:16: Patreon, you can go to patreon .com. If you look for Striving for Eternity, that will go to Striving for Eternity.
01:57:23: But if you would like to support Matt personally, not CARM but Matt, you can search for Matt Slick on Patreon and that goes directly to Matt.
01:57:33: That is not tax deductible because Matt personally is not a 501c3.
01:57:39: But if you wanna support him, you could go there. So next week,
01:57:45: I think we don't have anything out of the ordinary next week. We're trying to set up some debates, but some people say they wanna debate and then they don't set it up.
01:57:56: So we will see. I challenged some people to come in. One guy said he could destroy me in Catholicism.
01:58:03: I said, good, come on in. And I haven't seen him. So we'll see. Carmen, what was that he said?
01:58:13: He could destroy me with a tape. He could. Yeah, he could. Oh my goodness.
01:58:18: Look at that. That is so strange. Oh man. Yeah, it's looking naked. Your office is looking naked.
01:58:25: Yeah. All right. So all right, I'm gonna get going too. Until next week, just remember to strive to make today an eternal day for the glory of God.