An Unbelievable Ride and Calls

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:29

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

00:49

Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.

00:54

White call now It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

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United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

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Here is James white Thank you. Morning. Welcome to the dividing line on a

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Tuesday morning. Good to be back here in Phoenix, Arizona I keep forgetting to move that calendar.

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I Look up there for the date and it's all wrong, but that's okay.

01:23

We'll we'll live with that. It's the 10th Yes, I know Good to be back here in Phoenix spent the weekend in Brooklyn, New York and Like I said, it's good to be back in Phoenix Let me tell you some

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I don't know anybody drives around that place And in two of the four nights,

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I were there a total of 25 people were shot in the city I love how well gun control works And in one situation one situation one guy was shot 23 times by the cops and lived

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That would indicate a lack of gun control on the part of the cops. That is aim And in fact one cop got hit by another cop in the process so Yeah, it was it was great but it was there for the

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Jeremiah cry conference got to meet a lot of folks there and spoke on the holiness of God on the first day and Then the second day spoke on Responding to Bart Ehrman and the use of his argumentation out there on the street and So had have had a great time there then preached for both grace and hope reform

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Baptist churches there on Long Island those folks know me well been there many many times will be back again in only three weeks and Spending a week of those three weeks in Detroit leaving next

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Monday will be in Detroit be watching I should have a schedule up eventually Once I get there at least of when

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I will be on Jesus or Muhammad live and So you might want to be watching online or via satellite.

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However, that goes and then looking Excuse me looking at September.

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I Believe it's 24th For a possible Skype debate where I will be

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Skyping in to The program and You know if they're talking

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Skyping in video Instead of audio and you have to ask him about that because I could actually set it up the way that I do

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The videos at my desk right now. I think I'm pretty certain I can do that So that'd be sort of cool if they could like switch over to me

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But of course those Skype things are you look like you're a little bit of a robot if you're moving Anyways, that'll be interesting with they're trying to array arrange a debate with a

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Muslim Sheikh for that that time. So we'll see what happens. But anyway,

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I'll be in in Detroit I'm gonna be at the garden culture conference speaking at the garden culture conference The weekend after next there in the

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Detroit area. I don't believe they're in Dearborn because I would be afraid to go there So Anyway had a good time this this weekend and we'll be back there in three weeks for the two debates

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Christopher Ferrara on the Immaculate Conception sinlessness of Mary and Then David Silverman on is the

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New Testament evil Those are on the 28th and 30th of August Respectfully respectively.

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I'm well, we've hopefully respectfully to And in between I'll be speaking at two churches in the

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Long Island area on the day in between so I get there on a

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Friday I debate on Saturday preach twice on Sunday debate again on Monday get on a plane

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Tuesday morning So it's one of those real fast ones, but I will be staying out on the island I don't mind driving on the island

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I mean but driving in Brooklyn is is is enough to age you and age you fast

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Let me tell you something So it's good to be back here. Even though the temperature is heading for 110 to 112

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Later this week starting I think tomorrow and I'm trying to do a massive amount of riding.

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In fact, I did this morning You can tell that I am a complete addict. I did a 70 mile bike ride this morning was up at 330 in the morning only nine hours after I landed from New York, that's because it's a little drier today and I actually saw 76 degrees out on Carefree Highway way out in the middle of nowhere

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Beautiful morning got some nice pictures haven't had a chance to work on those yet I'll hopefully get them up on the blog, but I was it

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I need to call it an unbelievable Ride, it was unbelievable because I was listening to unbelievable

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Unbelievable is Justin Brierley's webcast. It's radio program actually on the

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Premier Radio Network It is a we've got to say it the way they say it. It's a Crestian program

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That that sounds like Crestian to those of us on this side of the pond, but that there's an extra.

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There's an extra syllable in Christian if you're in the

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UK and then you also need to slur a verb So it's Crestian Crestian radio

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Premiere dot org dot UK dot slash unbelievable something like that Anyway, you can find it.

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Justin's easy to find and I Am one of his podcast listeners.

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And so today I dragged the podcast over to my writing playlist on the nano and I got caught up on a number of them.

06:50

I really enjoyed listening to a discussion of presuppositional Apologetics it was refreshing to listen to a an atheist or a quote -unquote free thinker

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Basically saying well, we don't really need to be logical on these matters that was that was very very interesting to listen to and very very useful and You can you can get ahold of these things yourself.

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In fact, let me look over here real quickly. This was His his name is very interesting sigh ten bruggenkats

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Ten is the is the Dutch, you know, like Corey ten boom. So it's size his first name then ten bruggenkats and he did a debate on that particular

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Program with Paul Baird and Paul Baird just recognized that he was getting cornered by size presuppositional approach

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So he just said well, you know, we don't really we don't want to go that direction He wouldn't he would not even affirm the law of non -contradiction.

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It was very very interesting So that was the first one I listened to and then I started listening to the programs with Victor Stanger now

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Victor Stanger is is a physicist and He The first program was a little bit more useful to me than the second though It kept coming up he had written a book about the

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God hypothesis my hypothesis how it's the failed hypo and How they had done experiments on prayer

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Double blind random Experiments where they had people pray for individuals who were undergoing medical treatment but the people undergoing medical treatment didn't know that anyone was praying for them and So they they tracked these things as if this would somehow and and Stanger kept saying well

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If if we saw that like the Catholic prayers had this huge Percentage increase that I'd go and become a

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Catholic I'd go back to the Roman Catholic Church because he was raised as a as a nominal Catholic, obviously and I took over two hours because there were two different programs two different weeks and Two different opponents for him and though Justin sort of got close to mentioning it and and and it sort of came up a little bit

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No one ever just came straight out and said this whole thing is absolutely foolish because it's based upon an absolutely foolish view of prayer as If it's a button you push heel person press button and and it just happens

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Because it was all about intercessory prayer well what if God's answer is no or what if God's answer is not now or what if God's answer is that's not according to my will and You know, it should have been just a you know, knock it out of the ballpark in the first five minutes

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Answered to point out that the entire experiment was based upon foolishness But that never really got stated with the clarity that it needed to be stated and that was very frustrating to me

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So I was riding along rather rather frustrated but In between the two stinger programs that I listened to there was a discussion an evangelical versus liberal view of the resurrection and Let me let me play for you a section here.

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I wanted to queue up more stuff. I just didn't have time To get to all of it, but this was a discussion between Adrian Warnock who is let's see.

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What was that? Was his his website well Adrian Adrian Warnock calm, but he was with a

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Jubilee Church or something there in in in London as I recall But then we had

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Jonathan Clatworthy of Modern Church He is sort of like the lead guy in Modern Church And I was not overly shocked that he came to that position from the leftist liberal

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ELCA Evangelical Lutheran Church of America if you have

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ELCA PC USA The the United Methodist the Episcopalian Church.

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We're talking about the dinosaurs. They're called the mainstream denominations I don't know why anybody

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Would would call these a mainstream denomination. They are not a mainstream

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Mainstream denominations anymore. They're they're they're dead They're they're dying on the vine, but they're the liberal denominations and Jonathan Clatworthy Was defending the idea that we don't have to believe that Jesus physically rose from the dead and Listening to this whole thing.

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It was so you know, oh and I've had more time this morning I would have gotten the part where he said well, you know, we can't believe the

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Bible is a Sufficient source for revealing what we should believe and I mean he was there was only a

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Smidgen of a difference between the kind of argumentation he was using and that which you'd have with with an atheist or anybody else

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Again, it all comes down to biblical authority but right off the off the bat Adrian was good enough to say that if you don't believe in the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ, you're not a

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Christian and Of course Adrian just I just I can't believe that people still think this way.

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So let's listen to a right toward the beginning of the program When when

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Justin Ashton bolt, you know, what what exactly do you do you believe about these things and and this is what?

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He had to say is that the disciples of Jesus had an experience of seeing

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Jesus risen now Adrian actually made a mistake about Paul Paul never says that Jesus Was raised physically.

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Paul was the first New Testament author to write about the resurrection It's only

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Luke who was the fourth as you say in the order, but Paul Mark Matthew Luke He's the first person who says it makes it clear that Jesus's risen body was was physical and he ate a piece of fish

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And I think that was for reasons to do with The debates they were having with people who thought

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Jesus was never a real human being so I don't agree with Adrian about that now as for People who don't believe in the physical resurrection not being a

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Christian, of course, that would include st Paul would include many of the first Christians and And So, I Don't think that's that's fair comment

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Incidentally the point about we don't talk enough about the resurrection. We talked too much about the cross

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I certainly do agree with that But unfortunately the leaders of the

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Reformation were among the people who did that most of all Emphasizing the death of Jesus as part of a sort of salvation myth

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Which isn't in the New Testament, so I would agree with him on Emphasizing the resurrection, but I think actually

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Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic traditions have been better than reformed traditions Do you hold then that?

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the disciples Experienced the risen Christ. This was in some sense a spiritual experience. This was not a flesh -and -blood experience

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This was something within the minds of the disciples or well we only have one first -hand account and that's

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Paul and they're quite clearly it is an experience of the risen

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Christ without any hint of it being Physical body so I'm inclined to think that's more likely and But of course,

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I don't know And I wouldn't pretend that the matter can be settled by a scientific analysis or anything

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Is in the New Testament, I don't think there's any useful evidence outside the

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New Testament But certainly your argument then is that you certainly don't have to believe in a physical resurrection to be able to call yourself a

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Christian well, actually, I heard Adrian say that and I thought well is that just defining terms,

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I mean whether One person defines another as a Christian is

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You know is technically a matter simply of defining terms, unfortunately, there's a long tradition of sectarians

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Saying we are the only true Christians the rest of you are not true Christians and I'm acutely well,

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I used to be a university chapter acutely aware of people from the reformed tradition

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Busily insisting that Roman Catholics aren't Christians Who Christians Anglicans aren't

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Christians because they're wanting to claim that their theory of Christianity is the only one but I Okay We need to get away from that.

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Yeah I mean that a lot stuff in the New Testament about truth and error and false brethren

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I mean Paul was just over the top. You're listening to a false teacher right there. You're listening to an unbeliever in Sheep's clothing within the fold

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Or at least pretending to be within the fold If you can't draw lines if you cannot determine what is and what is not

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Christianity then you have nothing to say you have no message to proclaim and It became so patently clear later on in in the conversation

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Here's a man who does not believe that the Bible is the Word of God in any meaningful sense He doesn't it doesn't believe that you you should even attempt to harmonize the teachings of Scripture you just you know, you get to pick

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I think Paul was saying this here and Contradicting himself over there, but I like the contradiction and then we've got something

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Peter over here. Oh, it's just it is it is An excellent if you want to listen, this is the

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August 7th unbelievable program. So this is this this last Saturday and If you want to hear

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Why liberalism why quote -unquote Christian liberalism is not Christian? Then listen to that program because it is it is just so painfully obvious In listening to this that they have no message for the world.

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They have they have nothing to say They cannot engage in apologetics in In in any way shape or form.

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It is truly amazing and yet well, I just I just can't believe that you'd want to say that someone is or is not a

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Christian and Well, you know the Muslims get around to doing it and it seems to be something that the

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New Testament thought was very important but Yes, we just can't do that. So that's what

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I mean by it being a unbelievable Ride this morning.

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It was because I was listening to unbelievable. So Google Justin Brierley and the unbelievable radio program put him in your podcast list

18:52

Not not if you're gonna do so Realize now for example, and I'm gonna write to Justin if I remember to and say hey

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You might want to listen the first few minutes of my program today because I talked about you but The Justin even asked

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Sai the presupposition list Well, you know, you'd have to say that that on this program.

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We normally aren't doing Doing apologetics the way you think we should do apologetics and I would just say to Justin you've had other

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Presuppositionalists on your program me I'm just dealing with Muslims and universalists or people like that Unitarians like Anthony buzzard and so it's those are primarily biblical discussions or historical discussions or whatever, but I'm I'm a presuppositionalist as well when you're dealing with an atheist so He's had presuppositionalists on before and hopefully we'll have them again in the in the future

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But if you if you listen to the program You will get an education, but sometimes you will want to bang your head against the wall

20:02

Because there are times I mean he had what would when was this one? Let me see here

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Somewhere recently, I'm looking at the list right here somewhere recently he had a an atheist on the name of be strong and this was

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I could only listen to about 15 minutes this program before I moved on because this guy was

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Just so bad And I was going to mention listening to Victor Stinger Has reminded me of just how utterly non -reflective the new atheists are about worldview issues

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Victor Stinger cannot even begin to understand why someone would challenge his worldview.

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He just doesn't get it That's why that's why I say these men these new atheists the new atheism are

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Our Richard Dawkins is the perfect example of a fundamentalist atheist now I'm using that term fundamentalist not in this historical sense, but in what it's come to mean, unfortunately and What does it come to mean?

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It has come to me in a person who is unwilling or incapable of Recognizing the role his worldview plays and have had possessing any ability

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To critically examine his worldview and see things from somebody else's perspective not to say that someone else is right, but even to understand the criticism of one's presuppositions

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When you think of many a quote -unquote fundamentalist, isn't that where they're at? But that's where the new atheists are

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Victor Stinger. I Not once did I hear any ability on his part to even begin to process

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The criticisms that were being offered on a fundamental level you you're a naturalistic materialist

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That's all that's rational and therefore there is no evidence no evidence no evidence

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You just dismiss all the rest just just incredibly shallow in worldview thinking

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But that's the world that they that's the world they live in So if you if you sign up for unbelievable, you'll you'll get great education some great programs

22:18

Though other times when you will want to throttle the Christian that is on the program because in England, especially

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I'm sorry but in England, especially The sometimes they are just they lack a backbone

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They're not willing to say this is the truth and that's error. Now. Sometimes they are But there's just so such a strong drive for for political correctness

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That that sometimes you just you just you don't want to bang your head against a wall to feel a little bit better after a while, so Keep that in mind, but you will you will get to hear a lot of great programs if you listen to unbelievable

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So that's what we did this morning. Let's go ahead and Catch some of our

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Some of our phone calls here we lost one of the callers if he wants to call back on first Corinthians 7

23:12

I can address that one probably since I'm used to that one, but let's go ahead and talk with Antoine in Colorado.

23:21

Hi Antoine Hello, Dr. White. Hello Hi Guys, I have a question

23:30

So it's about God ability to lie Anyway, we know from second

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Thessalonians God can I believe it says that God can hand people over to lies and then second

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Kings 1922 no second Kings I believe chapter 2 verses 19 to 28

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Actually, I have no idea where I'm quoting from actually but Anyway God sends a lying prophet to the king and a

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So, how can God do all these things and then remain truthful? Well Antoine the answer is pretty straightforward if you read the context of each text both of them are judgment the text that you mentioned second second

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Thessalonians chapter 2 is that and Speaking about those who are perishing because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved this reason

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God will send upon them a diluting influence so That they will believe what is false and or they may be judged who did not believe in the truth

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But took pleasure in wickedness. So if a person refuses to love the truth

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And instead loves a lie, then God will give them exactly what they love More Untruth which seals them in their judgment in the same way the unrighteous nation of Israel That would not listen to his prophets and we're always always looking for prophets to tell them

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That what they're doing which was sinful and evil was good and right Then there's comes a point when

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God gives them over to the desires of their hearts and he sends to them Exactly what they want to hear which results in their destruction

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So given the fact that if God is just and holy he could bring his wrath to bear at any moment upon any sinner and He doesn't do that.

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He is patient toward them and does not bring his wrath to bear at any particular time

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Is it not true that God would have the right? To bring his punishment to bear in a way that glorifies him and that also edifies his people

25:56

In any way he sees fit All right, yeah, that makes sense

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But while we're on this topic, could I also ask about God's sovereignty if you'd like to oh sweet anyway, um

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So I have a lot of friends that are unfamiliar with reformed theology

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And so they're not familiar with the idea that God is sovereign and whatnot.

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Mm -hmm. How how may I? Give them an introduction and walk them through the concept of God's sovereignty because You know people don't really like a

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God who can do what he wants well if you're talking to a person who

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Demonstrates or at least professes a real belief in the

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Bible as the Word of God and Is a Christian That's gonna be different than if you're talking to somebody else

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So if you're talking to a believer who simply has more of a man -centered theory concerning God and and his sovereignty

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I I've found either taking a believer to clear texts of Scripture that enunciate these things or Utilizing common beliefs even the person who denies the the sovereignty of God in salvation

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Almost always unless they're a Pelagian or just a complete rank Arminian is inconsistent on that matter and so for example the cross

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They will admit that that Christ set his face to go to Jerusalem. He said is necessary He he prophesied exactly what was going to happen

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So it it's not like it was uncertain or something like it might not have happened Or it could have failed or Jesus could have failed or he could have shrunk back at the last moment or whatever else it might be and so when you

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Have that kind of common belief then you can utilize that to say well, don't you see what lies behind that?

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You can you can go to that wonderful prayer in Acts chapter 4 where Once the disciples are threatened, you know, do not speak any longer this name they they gather together in the church praise and in the prayer of the church is the confession that when

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Pilate and Herod and the Jews and the Romans were all gathered together against Jesus what they did they did because God's hand had had predetermined had predestined it to take place and so here you have the actions of all sorts of different people and they all acted for different reasons the

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Jews hated Jesus because he he had exposed their Sin the Romans were just being Romans. I mean

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Romans do things like that Herod was nuts and he was looking for you know a magic show and Pilate was a coward and So they all had different motivations and yet according to Scripture They did exactly what

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God's hand Predestined that they were going to do yet. It was sinful for every single one of them to do what they did

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They did exactly what their hearts desired to do and yet here you have the compatibility between God's sovereign decree and man's actions and So you can you can illustrate something and hopefully what you're doing is the best you can do is be an instrument in kick -starting someone's thought process and in kick -starting a deeper reflection upon truths that they already possess

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But don't recognize how how those truths relate to one another that's really The best you can do now what we've done with folks in the past when they would come into our chat channel

29:48

For example and ask questions like that I've gone to John chapter 6 or other texts like that, but I like going to John 6 because it's

29:56

I know it's not as as Intimidating I guess to some people to do it that direction to be in the

30:04

Gospels and that type of thing And so they tend to listen for a little bit longer and it tends to linger in the mind longer something like that But that's that's the direction that so we normally go

30:17

Okay, okay Okay, all right, thanks Antoine for calling Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number

30:30

And I guess we'll just go flying by the break as we so often do And let's talk to one of our good buddies up in Wisconsin.

30:40

Let's talk to Dabney. Hi Dabney Well, I'm just sitting here hoping that my

30:49

Hamstrings do not go into a seizure right in the middle of your phone call. I Had to rush a lot this morning to get in and even get the little queuing up that I did done and so I did not stretch quite as well as I should have after a 70 mile bike ride, so If I start speaking in tongues, you'll know why it is

31:25

That's stick to it to miss for you, there you go, that'll That'll do it for you. Hey, I Started riding

31:31

May 13th, 1993. I went out and rode four miles almost died But I got the next morning and rode five miles and almost died and that was 52 ,000 miles ago

31:42

So you got a start start someplace? You know, I just resolved to the good old jump rope

31:50

Oh, that's exciting. Wow. Yeah Anyway, that wasn't why you called there

32:01

I Had heard in the rumor mill

32:20

That there was a new edition of chosen but free coming out. I have not seen it Green paperback.

32:27

Well now that it's out. I will have to get hold of it and see what kind of What kind of changes have been made someone had actually told me about a month ago

32:38

That they were talking with Norman Geisler and that he said that it was a complete rewrite in response to me so If that's the case

32:55

I Sound that sounds like the second edition now, so Yeah, I'll hopefully remember to jump on Amazon and Take a look at it.

33:09

But if it has been a complete rewrite then that would tell me that You know, maybe

33:18

We had a little impact there. I'm certain that we have but I don't know. We'll see

33:24

If if norm is is wise he will have removed a lot of the fundamental errors that that he made

33:33

But I've not heard any evidence given the speaking that he's done that he has in any major way

33:40

Modified his rather unique form of Arminian ism, which he calls moderate

33:46

Calvinism But you know, we'll see it might be better to Do an update that, you know put the any new information or new presentations into a

34:02

Appendix or something like that because the book right now really does fill a real need and and the presentations very useful or maybe what

34:12

I'll have to do is is go through each chapter and You know, it might take a real overhaul.

34:19

We'll see. I don't know but For some reason Bethany didn't send me a free copy.

34:25

I'm not sure why Yeah, I you know what I think I'll I think

34:30

I'll call Bethany up and see if they'll I still have a Bethany house author They still sell my books.

34:35

So I think I might drop my friends up there a line and say hey About how about firing me off something here because something tells me

34:44

I I will be referenced even more often than than before Yeah, you're becoming a pretty popular guy.

34:50

Well, yeah and obviously unfortunately the situation with Eric and Kanner has has complicated the the situation with Norm Geisler, but Yeah, we'll take a look at it there certainly was a massive amount of room for for editing in chosen but free so but if it is a completely it's a complete rewrite and The many errors

35:19

I point out are gone. That's just vindication. That's just there you go

35:25

But if there's nothing in there saying well, I was wrong about this and it was pointed out to me here

35:31

Then that that would be a little bit disappointing. But you know, we'll see so Well, we'll track it down Okay, well, yeah, obviously if if if this is

35:46

Substantially different than the second edition then. Yeah, it would be it would be important and I'm sure that The folks at Calvary Press would work with me and in doing a new a new edition that would reflect it.

35:59

So All right. Awesome. Okay, man Thanks for calling. God bless. Bye. Bye Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one along those lines.

36:08

I did see something very interesting this morning In the brief amount of time that I had to look at anything this morning

36:19

On the Liberty student news .com website Headline canner cleans out office and leaves school question mark and It reads several sources are confirming that Ergin canner cleaned out his office and is leaving the school for good

36:36

It's not certain if he's moving to a smaller office where he's just leaving the school for good But what my sources understand is he's leaving for good then in all caps developing dot dot dot well obviously if if he's going to be just a professor he wouldn't be in the same office that he was in before but What has had everybody interested is that?

37:05

There's The the schedule that had already been published back in the spring of classes

37:14

That had his name on it His name has been removed from every class First those were turned over to TBA to be announced and now they've been assigned other professors there right now

37:26

Ergin canner is not scheduled to teach anything at Liberty this fall. That's significant and You know, he could be cleaning out his office so that they can paint it or fumigate it or get rid of Bugs, there's all sorts of things

37:41

I suppose but there's also the possibility that he's not gonna be staying there and I Can just imagine that his his small cadre of defenders

37:55

Would come up with some explanation for that as well Because they've come up with explanations for everything else too, but This is just You know just being reported

38:08

That Ergin canner cleaned out his office and is leaving the school. So We will follow that as further information becomes available.

38:17

Maybe he's just moving his offices who knows But we will we will see but it did remind me

38:25

That It has been I I went back and looked at the blog and it has now been over a month on July 8th

38:36

I posted a video and article and Which was called three questions for Norman Geisler posted

38:46

July 8th and I have not heard any answers to the questions that I have asked

38:54

Norman Geisler And I would love to hear a response, but it seems when we ask the focused questions the the questions that you can't really

39:08

Step around by answering another question when you when you ask the important questions, then then

39:16

Ergin canners defenders become very silent and And we asked emir canner we posted the picture that Ergin canner had on his

39:27

Facebook site Saying this was his 10th birthday and we asked the question was this in Turkey How long did you live in Turkey?

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Were you just visiting Turkey? Now? These are things that emir canner could answer should be able to can to answer fairly easily

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But it is completely Silent and of course the one I really really really would like.

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Dr. Geisler to answer Found in the July 8th article.

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So my question dr. Geisler is this please quote for us hadith 2425 and Explain its relevance to the

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Quran if you cannot do so Please explain your defense of Ergin and emir canner's use of a citation system that cannot lead one of the proper citation

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But instead would leave one to have to guess Dr. Geisler if you cannot provide full scholarly documented responses to these questions

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Then I submit it follows that your defense of Ergin canner is not motivated by the facts of the matter This would mean you are putting friendships collegial relationships employment relationships and simple politics ahead of the truth in this matter

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Dr. Geisler has ignored these questions and I would just like to remind everyone that he has done.

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So and Since dr. Geisler and dr. Canner are speaking at numerous conferences together.

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I Would encourage truth lovers to ask dr. Geisler and dr.

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Canner to cite hadith 2425 and to explain its specific meaning and relevance to the

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Quran and Then report back to me. I'd be happy to take your phone call on air To explain what they say

41:18

Now an earlier caller had asked a question About first Corinthians chapter 7 and my understanding is that the question is this the standard question?

41:28

This is this is an apology on an apologetic level. This is something you need to know about Because Muslims use this atheists use this it is a constant misrepresentation the

41:40

Apostle Paul that When he is talking about the subject of marriage he specifically makes reference to commands of the

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Lord and Those we find reflected in the Gospels themselves

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So what he's saying is when he's talking about commands in the Lord, he's talking about the tradition

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That was passed down in The Gospels and then becomes enshrined in the written

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Gospels Matthew Mark Luke and John which we find for example in Matthew chapter 19 and it is interesting to me that when

42:19

Paul specifically says The Lord said the Lord's commandment is what he's saying is exactly we have in our

42:25

Gospels And this is before the Gospels come along. I think that's a very strong evidence and witness to the vitality and accuracy of the the the passing on of the teachings of the

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Lord Jesus even before the writing of the Gospels, but Then Paul makes reference back.

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He says I not the Lord he says he has no commandment from the

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Lord and Muslims and Atheists will say ah see here

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Paul's just giving his personal opinion No, he's not. In fact, he's going to at the end of the chapter once again remind his readers of his own apostolic authority

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But what he's saying is that he does not have any tradition Any teaching that has been passed down where the

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Lord Jesus Christ himself addressed this specific? situation and So now he is speaking as the

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Apostle of Jesus Christ Not repeating the words of Jesus that he spoke while on earth in his ministry

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But now as an apostle with the Holy Spirit of God giving apostolic instruction to the churches this is not in any way shape or form a

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Denial of the inspiration of the text or the authority the text. It's a simple recognition on Paul's part that even he

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Was the recipient of The tradition which is the teachings of Christ which we now have in the

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Gospels themselves and When he says he has a command from the Lord lo and behold, we find it in the

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Gospels. Isn't that something? So be prepared for that misuse of first -rate.

44:16

Well, even Paul was just giving his personal opinion. This can't be the Word of God that's what the Muslims are always saying and that they have missed the reality of what's actually going on there a 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1.

44:31

Let's talk to Vince down in Texas. Hi Vince Hey, hi, James.

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Nice to talk to you. Yes, sir. I had a question on I saw one of your videos you had on your blog

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I can't remember who it was it was a Muslim guy and it was concerning the one of the questions he had on those

44:53

I think it was the harmony of the Gospels and with respect to the staff if you know one gospel said that Jesus told the

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Apostles take a staff one of them said not to Yeah, something to that effect and I went in you referred him or you give him a resource

45:13

He told him to get a a T. Robertson or how many of the Gospels? Well, I got it and I didn't

45:19

I didn't see I went to the back Try to try to see what what answers they had

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And I didn't I didn't see anything and I was just wondering Did I just had that question and how we harmonize that?

45:35

Well, I I'm pretty certain that the the harmony of the Gospels by Robertson that I have in the other room has a specific

45:45

Discussion of that. I don't that that probably would have been in the discussion with With Shabir Ali I'm not

45:56

I'm not certain which one you're you're referring to. Yeah, that's what it was. It was should be early, right?

46:04

so But if you have and I'm looking for it here table of contents, let's see

46:14

Where did I deal with that? That is probably

46:22

Chapter 11, I think if you have My my book on Mormonism Mm -hmm

46:33

I went through a whole well, actually, you know, I'll take that back. It might be in there, but I Also think it might be in Scripture alone too, let me

46:45

Let me see if I can find it here because I know that I there's a section one of my books where I went through that I'm just trying to remember

46:55

Yeah, I remember you told yeah Shabir Ali you give them both references the one to a

47:00

P Robertson and Your book on Mormonism Yeah Let me see here.

47:10

And if you would have any other any other resources that I could read up Let me see, okay, here we go.

47:21

Yeah Scripture alone page 164 is

47:28

Where I start with Matthew chapter 10 verses 9 through 10 They're not acquire gold or silver or copper for your money belts or a bag for your journey or even two coats or sandals

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Or a staff or the worker is worthy of his support Matthew gives an expanded account and so doing he provides the need explanation as well

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Jesus is instructing disciples to go out into ministry with the barest of necessities not looking to acquire

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Anything extra for the trip when he tells them not to take shoes Do we really think he means there to go barefoot?

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Of course not rather they're not to take an extra pair of shoes along In the same way if a disciple had a staff, he would not be prohibited from taking it along But if you did not have one he was not to acquire one just for the journey

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So what we have in Luke and Mark is only part of what we have in Matthew Luke records of prohibition given against acquiring

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Another staff while Mark communicates the implicit permission to take along a staff already in possession there is no actual contradiction here, then

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I was doing this in the the context of a dialogue between Dennis and Joshua and so Dennis is my my

48:34

Atheist and he says again, I find this sleight of hand very convenient If you didn't have Matthew you'd never have a way out of that one to which

48:39

Joshua says It's not a matter of looking for way out of something It's a matter of honestly dealing with the text and allowing for harmonization between the accounts something you'd allow for and expect in any modern situation where multiple witnesses to an event are recording their views as This example shows

48:53

Mark and Luke are giving complementary not contradictory information and the allegation of error actually lies in our ignorance of the statements

49:00

Context Matthew clears up the background in this instance But what are those other instances where we don't have a third view in?

49:07

Honesty and fairness should we not learn wisdom from this example and be slow to come to conclusions of contradiction.

49:13

So I'm pretty certain. I just don't remember which chapter it was in in Letters to a

49:20

Mormon elder that I I went through that exact same section I just don't remember exactly which which which one

49:28

I was in and letters to a Mormon elder is available on Online as well, but of course we have it available in printed form too.

49:37

So Okay. All right. Okay, that sounds good. Okay Hopefully that's helping you and if you know of any other resources that deal with that I'm dealing with an atheist and he's bringing up these questions and I essentially said the same thing you said

49:51

With this question that he had for me Well, obviously the best resource is is

49:57

Gleason Archer's encyclopedia of Bible difficulties You may not always embrace his particular harmonization

50:03

But at least it's often a start to give you some of the background information that you need The the older commentaries will frequently deal with issues like this newer commentaries like to as they say leave the tension in the text and and not address this stuff, but You know, sometimes you do have to delve into some fairly

50:30

Deep sources. I know that in the book of Hebrews I'm gonna be coming up on some text that you know, you'll have a whole stack of books, but it's it's good to do that and Obviously, I'm in a situation of having a whole lot more in the way of resources available to me than a lot of other people are but still it's it's a good thing to Work through these issues and struggle with them because once you've worked through it then

50:55

Rarely do you forget what the what the answer was even though as you get older you might as I just demonstrated by needing to read it to you from from my own book, but especially

51:06

Well, of course, I wrote letters to a Mormon elder in 1990 Okay, if anyone would like to say

51:12

I remember exactly where I would put stuff in 1990 I I dare you to remember anything you said in 1990 actually

51:21

But anyhow, all righty, sir, okay. All right. Thanks a lot. Thank you. Thank you very much. God bless us.

51:26

Bye. Bye. Bye So rookie, do you remember anything you said in 1990? How old were you in 1990?

51:33

Well, come on, you're an engineer you should be able to whip this type of stuff out like that. Come on. Oh Wow caught you flat -footed listen to the dead air

51:42

You don't remember how old you were in 1990. Oh, I was six six. Do you remember anything you said in year six?

51:49

No, that's that's good Well, come up one or two things and I remember those my parents told me about them repeat

51:57

I see but you don't actually remember Them, you know, they were just embarrassingly. That's right. All right, see so if I remember things from 1990, it's perfectly, okay

52:06

Yeah, the rookies the rookies back the rookie was MIA, but we found him and we he had been transported to the mothership

52:14

And we were able to send the Enterprise in and the defiant and the together they did a cross -beaming thing and got him out of the mothership and Yeah, that was

52:29

Anyhow now I'm faced with an odd situation here because oh a hefty

52:34

UPS package, huh? Hmm. I wonder what that is I Could go back to the syngenous slick thing because I have it queued up But In in six minutes

52:55

How far can you get? So eight seven seven seven five three two, three, four one If you've if you've had that one question that you've wanted to get in now's the time to grab it real quick Rich do you have a have a question?

53:09

I'm sorry Phillips Craig and Dean what about him? Sorry what

53:16

I have no earthly idea what you're talking about Well, some people actually looked at their own

53:21

Facebook website. I don't I don't do Facebook. I know you don't see last week I happened to get a phone call from a young gentleman who was a former one

53:30

UPC. I I know and It's all about you mentioned channelized I didn't the link that we just happened to you know, oh our stuff on PC &D is a little old.

53:42

It's you know, some of that stuff dated 2004. Yeah, I don't know how old Jamie was then I think it was that would have been 10.

53:49

Yeah, no, no, no 20 20 12 and 20. Okay. Anyway, so if it is 6 in 1990 anyway, he's he's looking to research this because a local church is bringing them in and there's a radio station promoting it and He called the owner of the radio station and said hey these guys are they deny the

54:13

Trinity and you need to know this and the guy is like, okay, I need some evidence and He was willing to look at it, etc

54:20

And and the guy came to our website and started poking around some places Well, apparently some of the things were leaking linking to on those old pages aren't there anymore?

54:28

of course not and so I don't know if we could even update those But I found

54:37

Eric Nielsen's page and followed a few links and one of them went to Randy Randy Phillips's dad's church, right and he's always been strongly one and Randy Phillips is right there on the

54:54

On the contact page Underneath his dad is one of the pastors. Mm -hmm, and I saw hey, this has got a fancy search engine in it

55:03

Type the word Trinity on it and boom up comes all the texts from the sermons that dad's been giving slamming the

55:10

Trinity, of course and You know PC and D has been very ambiguous

55:16

With these radio stations. I said I told the young man I said there you go right there. I walked him right to it

55:21

You have that radio station manager go to that very same spot do the same thing see if that isn't enough evidence for him yeah, and not only that when you look at the

55:32

Statement of Faith, you know, they've they even use the term triune But they they say triune manifestation not the existence of three divine persons and let's face it.

55:42

I mean I Know there are good solid folks in Christian radio

55:47

But there are a lot of non -christians in Christian radio. And so a they're not going to care about this stuff and be

55:54

Those that are worried about you know, people jumping on them for promoting heretics or something like that Are not going to have any meaningful understanding what the doctrine of Trinity is anyways so a modalistic presentation that talks about three

56:11

Manifestations of Father Son and Holy Spirit or whatever else it might be is going to be enough for a lot of people to let them just go sliding right by because they they don't understand that we're talking about the existence of three divine persons the eternal relationship of Father Son and Holy Spirit and So they just and let's face it for the vast majority people.

56:35

They don't care They do not care about The theological background of the people that are singing as long as it makes people feel good.

56:46

Oh, it's very pretty music Oh, yeah revelation song. I mean, how can you how can you help me revelation song?

56:52

I mean, come on. That's great revelation So someone just mentioned that in channel. Did you see that's what I always hear I hear it all the time you mentioned

56:57

PC and D and and then they but but but revelation song I Know well, and I've told the story many times that when

57:05

I was writing an article for the CRI Journal Ironically, I was in Chicago speaking at a conference with Norman Geisler.

57:14

So this was a long time ago I was sitting there in the motel room and I was writing the article and I was

57:22

Looking through some material that CRI had sent me on the

57:29

Trinity and current issues in the Trinity and lo and behold, there was an article about Phillips Craig and Dean and So I start reading this article and I start digging through stuff and The irony was there

57:44

I am writing an article called loving the Trinity and Guess what CD was in the

57:50

CD drive of that old old laptop laptop? I was using I was listening to Phillips Craig Dean I did not know and so I hit the little eject button and sat there looking at the

58:01

CD and Took it out and closed the door and continued writing the article on loving the

58:07

Trinity Without listening to this was long before iTunes and stuff like that without listening to folks who do not love the

58:16

Trinity and Loving the Trinity is obviously I believe Incredibly important and why would you want to be led in worship by someone who doesn't love the

58:27

Trinity? well We are out of time for the dividing line today, but I'm gonna be here

58:35

Lord willing on Thursday. What will be left of me by them? then next week

58:40

Don't know what we're gonna do because I will be in Detroit it's possible

58:47

I might be able to work something out, but I'm gonna be live on Jesus or Muhammad Anyways, so I mean even if you wanted to call in and ask a question you could you could do so So probably won't be doing any programs next week

58:59

But be watching the blog for information about when we'll be live. We'll be back Thursday afternoon taking your calls.

59:06

Talk to you then We need

59:32

You The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

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