Just Open Phones for 75 Minutes on the Dividing Line Today

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:38

And greetings, welcome to the dividing line open phones today at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one eight seven seven

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Seven five three three three four one. I noticed that Cy ten Bruggen Kate just joined the channel so that'll probably mean that people in the channel are gonna be distracted with his with his brilliance and Not gonna be listening to the program or anything like that So that's sort of how that goes when the big guys show up us little people just are left out in the in the cold but I Don't think that's what what

01:19

Rich was just laughing about but anyway eight seven seven seven five three three three four one I do have a

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King James only video queued up if we don't get enough calls. So I know that's threatening

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Used to be back in the olden days and we did actual radio and we paid huge amounts of money for just a few people to listen to us

01:42

When we wouldn't get phone calls I would threaten to start playing John Denver music, which

01:49

I actually love But other people found that to be a highly threatening and probably offensive thing.

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I can't imagine what it'd be like today but anyway That's just how that goes so we already have

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How do you know oh, how do you know that he joined it someone is asking me how I know that Sai joined the channel so That's sort of an inside joke.

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So by what standard do I know well, I Run the channel so I can get rid of him if I wanted to but I don't want to It's it's good to have in there.

02:29

Anyways, eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. We've already got lines full So let's start with the first call for for Sam.

02:39

Hi, Sam Hello, Sam Hello Sam, I got no

02:47

Sam man Sam be gone So Now we got a

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Noah and the someone know on Sam wanted Sam was gonna ask me about Chris a Christian architect designing a

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Christian mosque Christian A Muslim mosque and assuming

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That the question was sort of well, maybe not theoretical but would

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I be able to do that? There's there's two two aspects to this

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First of all, if I was an architect I would I Would respectfully ask that someone else do the work

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Just as if I were designing a church I would not feel comfortable asking a

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Muslim to design a Christian area of worship and that's just simply being honest with the fact that we don't believe that the other is

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Offering pure and true worship to God. It doesn't that's not disrespect. I know in our society anymore

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That's just really disrespectful, but it's not when you think about it In fact, I would think it would be actually a sign of respect

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I would want to I would want to tell the Muslims that I would want to say, you know if if Okay, if they didn't know about it in the first place then there's no reason to drag them into it

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But if it was a situation where you had communication there, there's a great opportunity to be able to in a very meaningful way

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Express what you believe about worship show that you understand what the Muslim believes about worship put it on both feet shall we say and You know, maybe open a door for conversation

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I know there's danger of you know in our day in our society everybody is offended about everything

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But you have to try to get over that if you're going to open up any doors of communication so personally,

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I would struggle with With doing anything like that. I would not be able to do that But I would want to have the freedom to express why that is and Maybe open a door of communication that way so that's that's

05:19

There you go Size asking how do you know that's in that's in Twitter say someone in Twitter asked.

05:27

How do you know question? How do you know? So obviously somebody somebody that knows knows you so anyway

05:36

I Guess we will pick up with line two then. Okay, let's talk with Kim.

05:41

Hi, Kim Hi, Dr. White. How are you? I'm pretty good. I love your program and my pastor says you are great

05:51

Well, you're all supposed to believe your pastor. So I guess we'll go with that. Um, I Have where I live, um, there's many unsafe people

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But I talked to this lady, um, her name is Ann and I've witnessed to her several times and Have given a warning and she always comes back with I don't care

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I've asked my pastor. How do you deal with that? What can you say and he says

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There are a lot of people today that says I don't care

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What do you say or what do you do? And the more

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I thought about it Paul's word came back to me and Romans 1

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Romans 3 that there's no fear of God before their eyes Well, there's no recognition of their own mortal

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Their own mortal condition or the fact that they will someday stand before a holy God you know, you can sort of do the

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Way of the Master thing and bring the law of God to bear. This is a person who's made in the image of God and but at the same time

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I have likewise spoken to people who Even when you bring the law to bear there is zero evidence

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That there is any Convicting work of the Holy Spirit in their life. They are you know with each generation it passes

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We're gonna be getting into more and more of a thoroughly and completely a secular Society where the person truly has bought the line and believes that they are a cosmic accident that they have no spiritual nature that when they die, they just simply turn to worm food and that's it and That their only concern is to have a comfortable retirement and have enough to be to live comfortably in this life which is why they don't care about future generations or having children or families or you know any of that because Once you're gone, what does it matter?

08:04

You're not gonna care. You don't exist any longer. So There is no, you know magic bullet for something like that there is no specific way of getting a person past that the best that you can do is to is to bring the the law of God to bear and If the

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Spirit of God is is active in that person's life, then you could be able to go from there Otherwise if they it's looking to go,

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I don't care, you know, you can't force anybody to Have a conversation with you and you know outside the

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United States. It's been more like this in Western culture for a lot longer period of time and so Christians in Australia and Europe and places like that Have been dealing with that humanistic apathy

08:53

Much longer than we have and so you can understand why they get excited when when they have any opportunities really of encountering people where there's there's evidence of some spiritual activity at all and So we've we've had it good in the

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United States for For a long time, but that's that's changing and we have to remain

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Faithful and despite it in spite of all that right The only thing that really

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I pray for her. I literally Shed tears for her.

09:31

She's 80 or 81 Yeah, and if she died we never know when we're gonna go and I know where she's going and that If it breaks my heart what in this world must it do to God's heart?

09:46

Well, yeah When you say when you when you say she's 80, that's that's a different situation.

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I mean You know that that's someone who has lived in a land that was not secularized and hence

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What you're dealing with there is just this the reality that when you just when you just look at the numbers it is a rarity

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For the Lord it happens. I'm not saying it's impossible But it's really a rarity for the

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Lord to draw his people to himself at extremely advanced ages

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To have allowed them to live their whole life In the clutches of the world and and and to bring such

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Dishonor upon themselves and so on and so forth You know when you look at Christians the vast majority of them came to faith

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Much much earlier in life and it is a you know, there are that that's why there's so many warnings in Scripture You know do not harden your heart because there's just so many times over nine decades

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That God has done things around you and you have seen things around you that you had to harden your heart against there is a lot of warnings against that and So it's just a it's just a given you don't you don't give up on anybody

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But it's just a given to recognize that it is Well, we don't know those things so Anything is possible and we don't we don't have that that information so You can't operate on that on that foundation you you pray for the person but you also take a lesson that Here's a good illustration of why it is that you do not harden your heart and You know you get to you get to 80 and you've hardened your heart many many many times against so many things

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I mean, it's a lot of sunsets to look at without bowing the knee to your makers. So That you know just the numbers tell us that's that's how it works

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Well, I thank you and I enjoy your program and I am in richly blessed by you and your knowledge

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And I pray for you, and I am very thankful for how you answer the absolute insanity of this world

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Well, there's a lot of that out there and no two ways about it, so thank you for your call today Kim Thank you.

12:24

Have a great day. Thank you. God bless Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.

12:31

Let's talk to Davis I Davis Hello Good Hey, I just want to say thank you so much for everything that you do

12:41

You guys really use you to strengthen my faith and and the way that thank you. Maybe only my pastor has done

12:47

Thank you so much, thank you very much so my question is And that I I can't go to seminary right now or Currently, I can't go to seminary and I was wondering if you had any idea for a curriculum that I could

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Employ myself or you have any suggestions for that? Well when you say you can't go you mean quit your job move someplace, right?

13:12

Uh yeah, I guess I know there's lots of online stuff, but um,

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I Just I'm I just recently got married. I want to be a missionary With my wife right now.

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I'm Looking for a full -time job. We're living with quite a few other people and I think it's kind of a priority

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It's like I will still want to learn but I need to be providing for her So right well, I need to get us to have a good place where we can maybe have kids, right?

13:39

Sure. Yeah Well, and of course taking kids in the mission field too is something to to to be pondering and considering as well, but there there are a lot of You know if someone wants to learn even in a situation like that, even if you only have half an hour a day or something like that there there is a

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Tremendous amount that can be done relatively freely assuming a person has

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Some level of access to the internet there's so many good places offer video lecture series is

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Which come with bibliographies? there's all sorts of I'm not sure if iTunes University still exists, but I know that I've downloaded a tremendous church history classes and and Just just all sorts of stuff

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At no cost whatsoever a lot of these schools a lot of the seminaries the the better seminaries and you always have to be careful there too, but Want you to you know, they're willing to make stuff available to you for free so that you know you that that that makes you think of them in a better fashion so that If you do decide to become a student down the way and are able to get the financial wherewithal to do it

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Then you're thinking about them first before anybody else and that makes sense. So for example,

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I linked last year to Michael Kruger's class on The text and canon of the

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New Testament and it's available online Some of the classes are just audio There are some that are that are video because he was going over certain manuscripts and stuff like that And I mean, it's just that's just fantastic stuff.

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I was listening to it while I was driving back from From Colorado, so, you know, it's a good refresher for those of us that actually work in the field

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But that stuff is available. So, you know RTS you can look at RTS as materials and and TMS master's seminary and and Places like that and and they're doing a lot of stuff making that kind of thing available and then normally for each class there will be a website with With a bibliography within it with you know, what the class readings are and stuff like that and Course syllabus will frequently be available to be downloaded and that's some of the best ways to you know

16:13

Mine that data and to get the books that are actually being read right now and Things like that and that way you can also

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Look at your specific area of interest So, you know when I was the seminary there were there were a number of classes that Well, I was

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I was fortunate. I I didn't have to take too many classes That I didn't have any interest in at all.

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I was thankful along those lines, but You know Sometimes you do get stuck with some at least if you're doing study on your own and sort of trying to prepare yourself for what?

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May be coming in the future You can at least start with what you're gonna be able to really invest yourself in and have some real serious interest in so You know

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It would be good to get started before the kids come along because after that It ain't easy

17:08

Yeah, it ain't easy. So I mean both of my kids were born while I was in seminary. So I Okay, that's where I lost all my hair

17:17

I have one Further question That's actually a little bit of point of concern for me if I get to just pick whatever

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I'm interested in right now I'll spend some time online. I'll like I'll watch past dividing line episodes or I'll read some books

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But it's all based on what I'm interested in at the time Well, remember once you get into once you get into a program there are required classes.

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And so they force you to But but even then, you know I've told the story a number of times about how

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I was one of the only people in the room that was really really really interested in Old and New Testament background classes

17:58

New Testament history That is that the history up until the point of the time the New Testament the background type history and stuff like that Yeah, I was fascinated by all that stuff because I was already involved in in apologetics and most everybody else

18:10

I mean if if they had been given the opportunity to not take something That's what they wouldn't have taken because you could tell they were just bored to tears

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And I was all excited because I knew how important this stuff was. So yeah It used to be

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I'm afraid it's changing in a lot of places, but it used to be That there was a a core of required classes that was specifically designed to keep you from avoiding

18:37

Some of the foundational stuff that you would avoid. Otherwise, it's sort of like biblical languages

18:43

But a lot of the a lot of the seminaries, unfortunately are you know hurting and they're in competition with one another and so It's not quite as good as it once was but anyway

18:56

Okay. Awesome. Thank you so much. Okay. All right. God bless. Thanks for calling Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.

19:07

Let's talk to Russ. Hi Russ Hello, dr. White so happy to speak to you and so happy with everything you have on sermon audio

19:16

Oh good, if that gentleman if that gentleman learns everything you have on sermon audio He'll go a long way

19:24

I Have a question about the Gospel of John. Mm -hmm. Why did they avoid the word repent?

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It's not a matter of avoiding the word repent It does not appear in its normative form that you find in Matthew Mark and Luke in John, but you have the conjunction of believe and obey in in John and Unless you isolate

20:00

John from the other Gospels Which some people do for some theoretical reason given that John seems to be the last gospel written and does not does not pretend to be trying to Replace not not replace but but to exist apart from them

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I mean it just seems like like John assumes that his audience has already gotten the synoptic

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Perspective and now his focus is elsewhere And he's filling in on a lot of the stuff that that the other

20:35

Gospels don't speak on it and this actually touches on a number of important subjects a lot of people argue that the

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Gospel of John cannot be a historical work or have historical validity

20:49

Because of how different it is from the synoptic Gospels If we assume that John is aware of the synoptic

20:58

Gospels, which I think is a given Then the question would be well, why is he writing what he's writing?

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And why is it different in its format layout? structure what's being focused upon than the others and and I think that touches upon your question because Fundamentally when you look at Where the message of repentance is in say a mark it is in the public proclamation

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Amongst the people the vast majority of John is

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Polemical it is Well, you think about it's it's Jesus talking to Nicodemus as she is talking to a

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Samaritan woman. It's Jesus Interacting with Jews in all sorts of different contexts in the synagogue in Chapter 9 in regards to blind man chapter 10 in the temple.

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In other words, it's it My theory is anyways that it's written enough later

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That John is willing to talk about a lot of stuff that Matthew Mark and Luke couldn't

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Because of the people who were still alive at that time Developments had taken place since then

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John's the last of the Apostles. He is able to Go into more Well, he does half of his gospel from chapter 13 onward well a half but a major portion of his gospel dealing with Jesus's words to the disciples and So the repentance motif is primarily in the normative preaching of Jesus to the people but you don't get a lot of the normative preaching of Jesus to the people in John what you get is

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Interaction with look at chapter 8 for example It's all about dealing with the the scribes and the

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Pharisees and then there's even a division amongst them and some I'm like what he has To say by the end there picking up stones to stone him

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So I just think it's the focus I think the concept is there when you put together believe and obey but since it's not the just another retelling of Jesus's public ministry and all the parables and stuff like that.

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I just think it's a matter of what John is emphasizing writing after and in light of what's already found in Matthew Mark Luke and Matthew Mark and Luke and therefore he's not he's not repeating that he's focusing upon something else.

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So You know that that would be my understanding of why you have that Difference in in emphasis is because there is a there's a difference in context and audience when it's being written and the assumption

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I think that that John can safely function on and that is that those other Gospels are already Available to people inside information is already there

23:53

Thank you very much and then when will rich have your discussion from Utah hosted

24:00

Yeah, Jason Jason Wallace sent me a a note

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About two days ago, I think saying that Because the video cameras that they were using were shooting different resolutions riches riches cringing another room

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That it's taking a lot of time for to switch things over and to get the editing done

24:27

So they're definitely working on it, but it's turning out to be a big a big task.

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So they'll they'll get it up there We'll let everybody know once once once I get it posted And we'll have another episode of the church history this

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Sunday You know what I'm not a thousand percent sure because That the next natural topic

24:58

Is the Anabaptists? I'm ready to do Calvin but I I I've started listening to a bunch of stuff about the rebellion at Munster and I There's a book

25:15

I want to get through so I'm not sure how I'm gonna handle that yet And the the two weeks after that I'm preaching the

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Sunday morning sermon So brother Callahan will probably be doing Sunday school. So I'm not sure what I'm gonna do

25:28

Sunday yet Because I don't feel ready yet to do Munster and I really want to do a good job on on Munster because there's a lot of It's not only is it one of the most fascinating stories in church history?

25:42

And I can show pictures of the three cages that are still hanging in Munster and I'm gonna be going to see Munster Hopefully in January next year.

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I'm gonna be back from Russia But There are so many applications to be made and so many dangers in the direction that The radical movement went at that point that we can learn from That I I just don't want to I don't want to do it, you know half -heartedly or half prepared

26:12

I really want to have some good material available now and I've not When I've taught church history in the past,

26:17

I've mentioned it in passing Very briefly, you know like in five minutes and I want to do minimally an entire class on it

26:26

This time so we'll see. I'm not sure. I Appreciate that very much that radicals movie you recommended that gives you a lot to think about it does

26:36

I look forward. I look forward to You're covering that period of time. Okay.

26:41

Thank you Russ Thank you. All right Yeah that that is a good video by the way for those of you who?

26:51

have Not been listening to the church history series that I'm doing a PR BC it's

26:58

Just the regular Sunday school Adult Sunday school class that I've been teaching for years and years and years.

27:03

I did church history I think 52 lessons on it back in the 1990s. It was recorded in real audio if anyone remembers real audio and So we decided to redo it again, we're somewhere in the mid -60s now

27:17

So I've obviously expanded things out a good bit and we're getting toward the end I'm only gonna go through the Anabaptist period and Calvin.

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I'm not gonna go beyond that that time period but If you

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If you if you haven't listened to it I had recommended that everyone watch the

27:37

BBC Martin Luther heretic movie, which is available for free on on YouTube And then the movie called the radicals the story of Michael Sattler I saw it in theater.

27:51

I Think it was I think it was available in a theater for one day in one theater

27:57

My dear brother Jeff Neal and I went and watched it together sometime in the early 90s, I think and You know

28:06

Well Spock's dad's in it, I mean, I suppose that you know that That that he was definitely the biggest name was

28:13

Spock's dad was was in it But you know, it's 1990s and it's a

28:20

Christian film. And and so, you know There's no CGI or anything like that obviously, but I think it's really really well done and When I've taught church history,

28:31

I've played both of those because you watch Martin Luther heretic It's like yay Martin Luther and then you watch the radicals you go.

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I was more complicated than that and it was When we went to Germany last year everybody on our on our tour learned the reality that It's a lot more complicated than Then people think it is and that's just just the reality eight seven seven seven five three three three four one

28:56

Let's talk with Jay. Hi, Jay How you doing? Dr. White doing good Thank you for taking my call and thank you for your ministry.

29:04

Mm -hmm Quick word of encouragement to Kim called a while back is

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I gotta say reasonably late in my life But my parents got saved a couple years ago. Both of them were 71 years old.

29:15

So no, okay Sometimes he does wait a little longer. Yeah But yeah,

29:21

I got a question about eternal generation Where the Sun Existence is eternally communicated to him existence

29:31

Right, no that that that wouldn't be an appropriate terminology what we're talking about and we talk about eternal generation is the is

29:44

There are two things called the opera ad intra and the opera ad extra. So you have the external operations of the

29:52

Trinity and you have the internal operations the external we see in What's called the you know, the the economic work of the

30:03

Trinity and redemption creation so on and so forth the internal operations

30:09

Are only available to us Because scripture reveals things to us about the relationship of Father Son and Spirit We would have no way through observation of Creation or things like that to have this information and so there are only a few texts

30:31

That specifically give us information on the eternal relationship the

30:36

Father Son and Spirit That would not be available to us as created beings.

30:42

And so the the Carmen Christi and Philippians chapter 2 The creation sequence in Colossians 1

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Hebrews chapter 1 John chapter 1 Those great normally primarily

30:56

Christological passages or then Jesus his own teachings in regards to John 14 and 16 and the

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Father and the Son Sending the Spirit. These are the primary texts that we go to Because they're

31:11

Revelational and they're graciously revelational. In other words. I don't think God had to give us this information, but he did

31:19

So when we talk about eternal generation, what we're talking about is the there's two terms that are used eternal generation regards the

31:27

Son and Spiration in regards to the Spirit and it's how the

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Father and the Son and the Spirit relate to one another now Some post -Nicene writers

31:43

Went a real long ways down the road In regards to Speculating on what some of these things might mean

31:54

We have to be I think we have to be very careful at this point in time because there is

32:01

You know, it's it's going back to Calvin's I think very appropriate Maxim that when

32:09

God makes an end of speaking We make an end of speaking and I've said many times that one of the primary differences between Calvin and Edwards was the fact that Calvin feared going past a particular point and in many ways

32:28

Edwards did not and so Edwards ended up in Some self -contradiction especially regards the origin of evil and Adam and the will of Adam and so on so forth

32:38

Even his greatest offenders admit that his work on that subject became muddled because he went beyond what what?

32:46

had been actually given in Revelation into an area of speculation and and Our minds even a mind as great as Edwards is is not up to that task.

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And so what we have to recognize is That there there is meaning in the terms father and son

33:05

That there is a relationship that exists between father son and spirit but that all of these are a

33:14

Eternal hence they do not imply origination beginning inferiority

33:22

That each of the persons is fully God Altaf a us in regards to Calvin's concern

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Emphasized regarding the Sun that is that their participation in the being of God is not secondary it may be marked by a relationship generation inspiration

33:48

But those are natural eternal Relationships they were not something where God the

33:55

Father decides I'm going to have a son Or and then the father's son decide they're gonna send have a spirit or something like that our big problem is that we import human

34:08

Categories to each one of these terms whether we want to or not. It's it's the function of language I think one of the

34:14

I think one of the great things about eternity and are being freed from The limitations of a

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Abiding sin and and things like that entering into the eternal state is that we will either learn to or immediately be able to Communicate in the way that God can communicate in the sense of Not having the limitations that we have now and therefore we will not read into Divine categories the limitations that we have in in human categories and so What has to be remembered when you talk about eternal generation is that we are not talking about a temporal act

35:02

We're not talking about a time -bound act. We're fully talking about a relational act and Whatever else you do with it.

35:13

You cannot allow it to result in your denying that the

35:20

Sun by Nature Participates in the divine being with full equality with the

35:28

Father and the Spirit It is simply a description of what that relationship is now somewhat so far as to say it the

35:36

Sun Derives his derives that participation Almost in a secondary way and I think especially once you get to that point you're going way way way beyond I just can't think of anything in in Scripture that that could be stretched far enough to say

35:54

Yeah Here is firm light being cast upon that so as with so many of the things when we talk about the deep things of theology proper what we're doing is we're drawing a

36:05

Negative line and that is instead of saying positively what's in the center of the circle?

36:12

We're drawing a negative line based upon what Scripture says and what we're saying is it can't be anything out here

36:19

It's only what is in here But what is in here may be beyond our our comprehension or even our understanding?

36:29

but given that the God wants to be known truly he's given us the boundaries in Scripture and I think eternity is could be spent filling in the inside of the of the of the of the circle

36:41

Whereas in in this life, we're primarily drawing that line To keep other things out of it and to say no, it doesn't mean that and no, it doesn't mean that and so so Keeping that temporality that creaturely aspect out of it.

37:00

I think helps to understand what's actually being said there I'd have to have a context of someone using it

37:11

Because I honestly haven't heard someone use that term He terribly gotten it.

37:17

Okay. Yeah, I've not heard. Yeah, it was in the time context of the father Eternally, but yet they get the son and as long as that's referring yeah, as long as that's referring to something that is a relationship that has no beginning and is speaking of Two divine persons as they are related to one another

37:36

Within the Godhead in their participation one divine being yes Okay, a lot of people want to want to translate that into Incarnational categories or Messiah ship categories or all sorts of other things like that, which

37:53

I think are inappropriate Okay, okay, I think I agree with you that if it's fixed or relational

38:00

Then that's acceptable But when it goes because I've actually heard people talk about it in terms of his existence is eternally

38:06

Communicated to him where it makes him makes the Sun sound like he's dependent upon the father Well again someone

38:12

I could see how someone would use that terminology Maybe in an orthodox fashion, but it's only after they've already established all the stuff that I just established

38:22

Because if you don't do that, then yeah, that's what it sounds like. It's communicating they may be assuming someone already already has all that background about Altaf a us and and the eternal nature of these things and stuff like that And if you don't then it can sound it can sound way off Okay, I appreciate all right.

38:40

Thanks day. God bless eight seven seven seven five three three three four one

38:46

Let's talk to Robert. Hi Robert Hello, dr.

38:52

White I want to thank you very much for your ministry and for all of the knowledge that you share with us

38:59

Daily, well, thank you almost daily not quite Now this is like the fifth hundred time

39:06

I call the line thankfully I was able to Now I have

39:13

Two questions. The first one is brief. They're both brief. So my first question is about New Calvinism and the young and reformed movement and since You collaborate with Many Christians who you don't necessarily agree on on every subject

39:41

But you still collaborate for gospel Ministry. Mm -hmm.

39:46

How do you help your people? Think about the distinction that exists

39:53

How do you warn them about novelty and other forms of worship? The dangers that are involved with this

40:02

Well, but yeah, well I think it's I think it's a matter of focusing upon Giving to people a solid foundation in knowing what is central what's definitional what's foundational and what is

40:17

Then important but not necessarily definitional and then the next layer in the next layer.

40:23

It's those concentric circles and Challenging people to to be consistent and balanced in how you

40:31

Determine those things and to recognize that you may have brothers and sisters who

40:39

Will draw those circles a little bit larger or a little bit more tightly than you do and if you

40:48

Demand that everyone have the exact same listing as you you're gonna be a very lonely person in this world and It just seems to me that Christian maturity over time

41:01

Demonstrates that that by its its natural that we end up in churches with like -minded individuals

41:09

And as as one who preaches and and teaches regularly I try to Demonstrate and to illustrate and to be a model of Consistency in trying to draw those lines and yet at the same time

41:30

I will recognize that there are people in my own fellowship that are going to have tighter circles or broader circles than I myself have and You know once it gets right down to it each one's gonna be judged by the

41:44

Lord, you know Romans 14. So For me it's it's making sure that people see what the what the foundational issues are

41:53

Then the nature of God and and what true worship is and what the gospel is what justification is and so on so forth

42:01

Issues of bibliology and inspiration and and that kind of thing And when you do that when you do that consistently over time,

42:10

I think a lot of that stuff sort of sorts itself out but I recognize that that for some folks they just get absolutely focused upon one particular thing and It ends up creating an imbalance and As a result, they just can't possibly

42:30

See past that one defining Thing and maybe it's been an experience in their life.

42:36

Maybe they've come, you know, it's really common if someone has come out of a particular movement in their own experience

42:45

It's real easy for someone like that to have a strong bias That this is the thing and if you disagree with me on this that I just can't have any respect that you you know anything else at all and We have to I think over time grow on our own maturity and examine our own hearts and to see where our own biases are and That's that's not the easiest thing to do

43:14

But it is I think a necessary aspect so just trying to model for the

43:19

Saints a Consistency over time is I you know, positively

43:24

I think is the best way because I can't just sit there and say, okay Here's the line, you know, you just you just follow follow me and No, I want to I want to consistently over time illustrate that to my people and Let that line become their line by conviction not just simply because I tell somebody

43:44

This is very helpful Thank you, my second question is about prayer

43:55

You Talking about prayer you often say that or you point out the fact that prayer doesn't change

44:04

God It changes me. It changes how I accept

44:09

God's will and in my life and in his in his world

44:16

So how how should a reformed

44:23

Bible believer think about God's sovereignty God's decree

44:29

God's impassibility but also the duty to pray and How do you cultivate that love for prayer?

44:38

How did men of old? How were they able to? Bow down for hours before the throne of grace, but still knowing that God has foreordained

44:52

Everything that happens in this world, how do you Think about these things so that your hunger for prayer and your love for prayer grows

45:03

Yeah, well you you start with obedience everything in the Christian life starts with with obedience

45:09

You're you're commanded To lay your petitions before the

45:14

Lord you're commanded to to pray. So there is a beginning That is a matter of obedience but obviously when we look at any act of obedience in Scripture, there is a biblical context provided to it as to why

45:33

God would command obedience in a particular fashion and we are able to see Why the obedience to God's law brings blessings so on and so forth and so There is a

45:47

There is a reality when we look at The subject of prayer that reminds us of who we are and who

45:55

God is As a reformed believer, we should recognize the sovereignty of God, but we should also recognize that the content of His decree is

46:10

Unavailable to us and we are not judged on the basis of that content And so we have to hold in proper biblical tension

46:18

I think we're given examples of this in Scripture, but we hold in proper biblical tension the

46:27

Reality of God's utter sovereignty and his divine decree and that that divine decree and sovereignty

46:35

Results in God's Interaction with us in time in the incarnation in his dealings with Israel And and now he has sent his spirit to dwell within us who cries out

46:51

Abba Father and and draws us into communion with him and Says this is what

46:58

I desire for you. This is a means by which you are going to be made more Like your

47:03

Savior and therefore it is something that we desire to enter into and we do not desire to try to somehow with our finite minds put together my interaction with my

47:18

Heavenly Father and His eternal existence. I mean you really you can't even figure out how

47:24

God is eternal Let alone how one who exists outside the realm of time Can have meaningful interaction with someone who is completely limited to experience in time

47:34

And so if we if we demand to have all the boxes checked and have all that stuff figured out

47:42

We'll never get around to doing what God has called us to do. We need to recognize certain divine truths

47:50

God is sovereign over what happens in this world. That's what's the basis of Romans 8 28 But that doesn't mean that we then just sit back and just wait for God to zap us or Anything else we have been called to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

48:06

And so we hold Those two things together not as contradictions

48:13

One thing does inform the other I mean it is God's sovereign will that his spirit work within me and that I struggle against sin and then that and that I Labor in prayer and that I do all these things

48:28

That's that is God's sovereign will so the sovereignty of God remains the the over arching reality that gives meaning to everything else, but We don't allow that to become well, that's over on that side

48:41

But then the contradiction is over on this side and then we somehow have to figure out how that works. No That's not what we're called to do.

48:48

We are we are called to be obedient to do what God calls us to do We are to contemplate the deep things of God There's nothing wrong about thinking about for example the last caller and this concept of the relation of father son spirit and things like that But there needs to be a balance.

49:04

We can't we can't just get to the point where we are Contemplating our navels all day long

49:12

We are called to live in this world and to glorify Christ and to do his work in this world And so there needs to be a balance and the older I get

49:21

The more often I find myself saying that a Christian maturity is is obtaining that balance and so many of the errors that we see is just is just imbalances in those areas things that people have lost their lost their way and Rather than constantly seeking to have that that balance so Men of old the great reformers, you know, and we just we're just talking about Edwards men of men of prayer and That that doesn't seem to mark

49:58

The modern era very much to be perfectly honest with you and I think it's because we're far too distracted with all of our stuff

50:08

It seems to me that people who have much less of the goodies of the world

50:14

Tend to find much more delight in prayer Than those who have a tremendous amount of of stuff so That little sermon was was for free

50:27

Thank you. Dr. White. Um, I Appreciate your answer and I will meditate on this.

50:32

All right. Thank you. Thank you Robert. God bless. Bye. Bye all right, I think we'll probably

50:41

Do well to stick with what we got right now, don't you think? Three calls and Eight and a half minutes probably end up going along.

50:50

Anyways, so let's talk with Chris. Hi, Chris Hey brother, thanks for taking my call.

50:58

Yes, sir I'm sorry to attend that very interesting very lively debate

51:08

I'm sorry. I didn't hear what you said. What did you say? I said I mentioned, South Dakota I was there to it.

51:15

Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. Okay, very lively debate. Yes, it was it was interesting Did I hear correctly that there's going to be a part two or did that fall through well hopefully eventually

51:30

I don't think it's been some contact for a while So we'll we'll see what comes of it.

51:35

I certainly would like to do it, but Be fairly honest with you looking at the rest of this year I'm already busier than I than I then

51:43

I absolutely I Should not be doing all the things that I'm doing already this year. So We keep saying

51:51

I'm gonna I'm gonna back off on stuff so I can get this work done and then I Keep saying yes to stuff.

51:56

So we'll see Well, it'd be cool to see but yeah, it was good to meet you and Conley and Aaron and the rest of the guys

52:03

Mm -hmm. So my question is about middle knowledge slash God's omniscient and Actually while I thought of one more question if this was brief enough

52:14

I would like to be able to ask the second question on middle knowledge. Yeah, right. That'll be brief No, no, no, not on middle knowledge.

52:20

It's something else. Oh Okay. Well the the question on my screen says middle knowledge. So we'll we'll see.

52:26

Okay. Well, we'll see if I can make this quick so My question is basically so I understand why we reject middle knowledge in the

52:35

Molanistic sense But is there a thing in which we can speak of a reformed view of middle knowledge or not the middle knowledge?

52:44

and what I mean by that is If God was free to choose whatsoever comes the path

52:49

Is he not also free to think of other ways he could have chosen whatsoever comes the path?

52:55

Well, but that's not what middle knowledge is My Well the the historical objection as Very clearly laid out by Francis Turretin to the concept of middle knowledge is called the grounding objection there is there the the two categories of God's free and natural knowledge is

53:23

Sufficient for everything and and God could contemplate All sorts of other ways in which he could have glorified himself within those two realms.

53:34

There doesn't need to be this mythical Kind of knowledge that in essence

53:43

Postulates the existence of Of Theoretical creatures who would be fixed in how they would do things outside of God's creative decree and all the rest of stuff

53:54

That there's there's there's no need for all that In my opinion silly complication for God to contemplate all sorts of lesser, you know if God wants to contemplate lesser glories,

54:09

I guess he could but um it's And i'm also concerned about the idea that God had to sort of contemplate all these different possibilities

54:19

And then come up with something um That that sounds like a god who's learning or again

54:27

Contemplating stuff that's coming to him from outside and these are all issues that I think are are highly highly problematic so when there are there are reformed men who

54:39

Identify themselves as advocates of middle knowledge I've not had an extended dialogue with any of them to be honest with you on this subject.

54:48

Maybe they're afraid uh to do so not because they fear me but because they figure i'm just such a terrible horrible mean nasty person because that's my reputation so uh, but i've just never

55:00

Uh had the opportunity honestly to sit down with a a thoroughly Reformed individual who says this and say okay

55:08

So, where does this middle knowledge come from? Uh, what what is its origin? What is its nature?

55:14

How does this exist outside of God's creative decree? um And i've just not heard meaningful defenses of those things.

55:22

So Okay So with our view of sovereignty you think it

55:29

Would it make sense for us to speak of things like God would know exactly what would happen If I ran for the mailbox and back he would it just that's kind of nonsense to talk that way well

55:41

I can't I can't I can't conceive of a context in which that would be a meaningful statement.

55:47

Um, I mean um the assumption of the statement is that there are

55:54

You know sort of a star trek universe with all sorts of uh alternate timelines Um, right, uh, you know,

56:01

I think of one of those last next generation episodes where you know Have all these different rikers on the screen from different timelines and stuff like that And the poor the poor guy the poor one riker and the really really really bad borg universe.

56:14

But anyway, that's another story Um, that's uh that that may that may work real well with uh with the next generation doesn't work real well with isaiah uh, let's just put it that way so um

56:26

You know people can come up with all sorts of wild speculations But that doesn't necessarily mean that it's a category that is uh edifying or worthwhile

56:37

Okay, well that's helpful, um My other question was about limited atonement and a challenge that somebody threw at me and uh, if I could ask that okay

56:46

I'd appreciate it. Um, so basically my a brother of mine He doesn't hold to limited atonement

56:52

And he tried to put forth a challenge to me by asking me if god will judge the non -elect for rejecting christ and I said yes, it's a sin to reject christ

57:04

Um, and then he tried to cleverly Uh reword his question by saying so god will judge them for not

57:11

Believing that christ died for them And am I right to respond by saying no, he won't judge them for Not believing that christ died for them he'll judge them

57:22

For not believing that christ died for all who will repent and believe that's correct

57:27

Uh, the apostles never even addressed those theoretical things. Uh, they said repent and believe

57:34

Uh, they said jesus christ is lord. He rose from the dead He commands you repent and believe period all the rest of this stuff is pretty much to be honest with you

57:43

Mechanisms that's either amiraldians or those deny The the specificity of the atonement and the unity of the work of the father son spirit in redemption

57:54

Uh to try to create a division that's not actually there It's when when someone says well, we'll cry will god punish someone for rejecting jesus?

58:03

Well, what what does that mean? Does that mean that the gospel was clearly presented to someone and they rejected the claims of christ to be the messiah?

58:13

The idea, you know nowhere in the bible. Are we told that unbelievers should do something?

58:20

Because jesus died for them uh, so Says jesus did something so nice for you.

58:27

You need to do something really nice for jesus that's just that's just not a a meaningful biblical category there is a

58:35

Uh, the father has testified of the resurrection of his son If you reject that you're calling god a liar and that that is a sinful action now

58:46

Not all unbelievers have committed that simple action because not all unbelievers have ever heard So obviously there are different levels of knowledge

58:53

I mean if you really have a knowledge of what scripture says concerning who jesus christ is, okay, then then you're going to be held accountable for the rejection of that but uh this whole idea of well god's going to punish people for Uh their views of atonement or something like that It's just not a it's just not a biblical category to begin with.

59:11

Uh, the issue is if you reject The mechanism that god has provided if you reject

59:20

Uh the the lordship of jesus christ if you reject the the empty tomb Uh, you don't have to have much knowledge beyond that that is that is a culpable action in of itself

59:31

So trying to bring in everything else after that uh, you know all the way down to well if you reject, uh credo baptism verbatim baptism verbatim baptism, you know, people can just just just start adding all sorts of stuff there

59:45

And it's just not really just not really relevant right Okay, very helpful.

59:52

I appreciate your time. Thanks chris. All right. Have a good day. Bye. Bye All right, two more. Let's uh, talk to uh, joel.

59:59

Hi joel Hi. Hello. Yes, sir yes, okay, um call me because I mean first of all,

01:00:07

I just want to say that uh, you are a really Uh blessing, you know to my life in so many ways.

01:00:14

Well, thank you. Um I'm calling because I want to ask you something. Uh When I went to seminary in my country, uh, the

01:00:22

Dominican Republic a long time ago I took greek uh for uh two years

01:00:30

But my greek is not like the best, you know greek I can actually read a lot of things but i'm really really limited so I've been thinking about this.

01:00:42

So I uh, and this is really my question I saw that uh, rosetta stone

01:00:48

Has a really great program For modern greek.

01:00:54

Do you think it would be a good idea for for someone who wants to actually? uh

01:01:00

I mean dig deep deeper into the bible to actually uh Uh study through rosetta stone modern greek to do exegesis in the new testament and the septuagint

01:01:13

Yeah, no, I wouldn't uh, because it's modern greek and the new testament wasn't written in modern greek

01:01:19

Uh, there is sufficient difference. Well, even there's even difference between uh, the the septuagint and And the new testament as far as certain

01:01:28

Grammatical forms and things like that. There's 200 years of development 250 years of development between the two.

01:01:34

So maybe more 300 Um, so there there are subtle changes there. I mean, obviously

01:01:39

I can read the septuagint just fine knowing koine greek Uh, but it's more classical than than the koine was and so there are some unusual forms and things like that even then

01:01:49

But then you throw in 1800 years of development beyond that And no,

01:01:55

I I would not recommend a modern greek study because there are all sorts of readily available um ways that you could refresh your greek and um

01:02:08

Get a better foundation in it Available online as it is. I mean, uh, dr.

01:02:14

Mounce's grammar, which I taught through for years in seminary um has a workbook and you can get you can for a relatively small amount of money can uh get his lectures and Go through the the workbook and the vocabulary and there's just all sorts of stuff and it's directly relevant to the new testament

01:02:37

Uh rather than a a secular study that would have you studying how to say

01:02:43

Uh, I want to get out of the automobile and find the restroom before I go to the restaurant, uh in greek

01:02:49

That's not really going to help you Uh too much, uh, i've i've got rosetta stone for arabic and german so I know

01:02:55

Um, so, you know those things are relevant phrases to know except when you're studying the new testament because That's that's not going to help you out too much.

01:03:05

So and besides that there's actually a lot of pronunciation and differences as well, uh from from modern greek to koine, so Um, no,

01:03:14

I wouldn't recommend that but like I said i'd look at mounts and there are others that I just may not be familiar

01:03:20

With but I know perspacher, uh has a refresh your greek, uh thing and there's all sorts of computer programs and And things that you can do today.

01:03:30

Uh, it's it's honestly, it's never been easier except That learning a language requires long um

01:03:40

Attention spans and most of us don't have that anymore. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Uh, absolutely, you know, so yeah, there you go

01:03:47

Yeah, yeah, and my final question is what do you think about dr. Jordan peterson?

01:03:53

Oh goodness, that's Uh, I did uh, I did a program a few uh a few months ago where I went through uh, ben shapiro and and dr.

01:04:03

Peterson uh chatting about theology and then before that I did a response to peterson's uh, to a particular presentation peterson made um

01:04:16

And and and tried to say, you know, there's a lot of truth here, but here's what's missing and here's where it falls short

01:04:23

And that's why there are errors here. I Had a friend send me a link this morning to a half hour discussion.

01:04:30

He had with an evolutionary psychologist on the relationship of the hemispheres of the brain

01:04:37

Uh, and again, it was all based upon, you know, evolutionary psychology. He's an evolutionary psychologist

01:04:42

And so he's giving us the best he can given the foundation that he has it's uh, There are there's there's a lot of common grace there, but there's it's not a christian presentation and and where it intersects um with uh with truth

01:04:58

Uh is a function of of common grace and the fact that we're we live in god's world uh, but uh, you know, you you pray for dr.

01:05:07

Peterson and and hope that uh, Uh, god will uh reveal the glories of christ to him because he hasn't as yet Okay.

01:05:16

All right. Let's um He was gone Oh Oh, well, yeah, of course.

01:05:26

Yeah, I I mentioned that you can you can go listen to those. Um But I lost

01:05:31

I don't have him here anymore. So let's just go to uh van. Hi van

01:05:37

Hi, dr. White. How you doing? Doing good. You're our last caller Fantastic, uh, well, thank you for taking my call.

01:05:44

Um, i've been listening through your uh holiness code for today's series Uh, very good.

01:05:51

I definitely recommend it to anyone who's listening. But uh, With regards to to the trend we're seeing today with the lgbtq and and and so on and so forth everything gets added to it and now recently you mentioned uh, uh, you read an article from uh

01:06:09

Uh, I can't remember who it was but about adding pedophilia you might as well add pedophilia to it, right?

01:06:16

Now a lot of the you know looking at the holiness code Uh, I was chatting with a friend the other day and he asked the question

01:06:23

Why is it that we don't really see anything in the old testament? that that speaks to um to to that particular sin or or is there something and Correct me if i'm wrong

01:06:34

But as far as I know, I don't I don't know that i've read anything like that that really speaks to sexual misconduct against minors

01:06:41

Is there something like that or is there a reason why that isn't really in the old testament? Well, there's a couple things.

01:06:48

Um the very definition of minor um is highly culturally, uh determined Uh, we live in a day where I you know, you know,

01:07:00

I haven't actually looked up for a long time what the current Life expectancies are it's been a decade or more since I did

01:07:08

I need to do that Um, let's say life expectancy right now in the west in the united states is in the late 70s

01:07:16

On average something along those lines. That's probably a safe guess anyways um that was that was that is a uh a major change from the medieval period where Uh, you would literally have life expectancies in the 40s because of all the disease,

01:07:35

I mean In the 14th century, it probably would have been in the 30s. Um, because of the plague

01:07:42

I mean half of europe wiped out in a matter of a couple years and uh, so the the point being that Generations, uh before us um

01:07:55

Had to get started a whole lot earlier I mean, let's just put it this way if american men today

01:08:03

Uh were the standard down through history There would be no humanity. Uh, because if you put off marriage

01:08:10

Until you're 32 and you have uh, you have uh reached the highest level of every possible first person shooter video game uh in your mother's basement, um then uh

01:08:22

There would be no humanity today because you'd only have a few a few years left to live so, uh marriage was at a considerably earlier age

01:08:32

Uh in in years past and so the issue of defining uh, what a minor is is the first thing that you'd have to deal with secondly

01:08:44

Uh, there is the assumption biblically of the existence of a family marriage

01:08:51

Uh being done by individuals outside of the control of their parents based upon emotions

01:08:59

Is not how mankind has done it for a very very long time we In the west have developed the you know in the romantic period this idea

01:09:10

And it's deeply ingrained in us now, but if we know our history That's not how it was done

01:09:17

And even in the new testament Paul has to address. Hey, you know if a man wants to keep his daughter virgin, that's that's not sinful

01:09:24

Well, we can't even understand that we don't even have we don't have categories for that and so biblically, uh, you would in essence anything where the scripture speaks about Uh any type of sexual activity outside of a marriage that would be arranged and determined by the parents

01:09:47

Um would be sinful so that would include any kind I mean and I mean That was that that's just a given um that a

01:09:56

Uh that a father and a mother are not going to give their six -year -old daughter uh to a 52 year old man, um in in marriage or and even then pedophilia is is not really

01:10:13

Generally considered to be in the context of marriage in the first place. It's considered to be illicit acts um and desires and things like that the whole biblical narrative is outside of this relationship of marriage

01:10:29

There isn't anything anything outside of this is is just simply wrong And so while there isn't a specific text that relates sexual desire to age specifically um, there is just fundamentally the reality that Marriage is the only context in which these relationships are to be taking place and those

01:10:54

Those are determined by the parents. And so the assumption is the parents obviously are going to Only allow that when they themselves know that that their uh their offspring are of an age to be able to Handle that situation now, obviously in times past that could be 14 or 15 years of age

01:11:15

I mean that was not unusual in many cultures and in many periods of church history because If you're living to 35 14 is about halfway there.

01:11:25

Anyways, so If you're going to continue the the species, uh, that's that's what was uh, that's what was going on So I think the

01:11:33

I think the reality of what marriage was Is where you'd get the the context, uh for that and and hence any type of behavior any type of uh attitude outside of that uh realm and of course jesus himself said, you know, it's a long after your husband your your neighbor's wife is

01:11:52

Is uh is sinful well that if it's if if that's for the wife, then it's also obviously for the children

01:11:58

Uh as well, those are those are disorder desires. Did you have something? Yeah, I was just going to contribute that the um

01:12:04

The practice isn't all that ancient even though we know what to be It's much more carried much more into the modern times.

01:12:12

My grandmother 105 years ago Was 13 years old When she was given to my grandfather who was 23

01:12:20

For marriage her first child she had when she was 14 years old. Yeah No, it's not unusual

01:12:26

Yeah, not unusual at all. No, no, I mean some people say I took a child bride, but I was 19.

01:12:31

She was 18. So So, all right, man

01:12:37

All right. Well, thank you. Dr. Watt. Thank you that quick quick side note just on the light note Have you ever done the uh cape town cycle tour?

01:12:45

No, you know everybody mentions that to me when i'm i'm down there. I've only been to cape town. Uh Once or twice

01:12:53

I can't remember now. I haven't gone down there for a while because uh, I won't I want to be able to drink water

01:12:58

Did they finally get rain? They did they're actually doing really well their their dams are up to I think it's almost 60 percent

01:13:05

Uh, I speak under correction, but I know it's close to that. Um, well good We were praying for that So so maybe

01:13:13

I can get back down to uh to visit my friends in cape town now that uh I'm, not gonna be worried about uh dying of thirst while i'm there

01:13:19

I mean, i'm not trying to make light of it. They were in serious serious serious trouble, but i'm I'm glad they've got it's a beautiful area and sure i'd love to do something like that but let's just be honest most the time when i'm traveling i'm uh,

01:13:31

Well, okay when I was in I was up in colorado, that's what I was doing But that's different thing when when i'm when i'm overseas i'm normally teaching

01:13:38

Though I did I did run. Uh, I did a 10k along the uh along the beach there in uh in cape town

01:13:45

It was gorgeous. It was beautiful on the promenade. Uh, yeah. Yeah down along I forgot which side I was on but you could see the mountain across the way.

01:13:51

So it was pretty It was pretty. All right. Thanks for your call van Thank you, dr. White, I got a great day.

01:13:57

Oh you too. All righty. There we go. Uh, almost uh an hour and 15 minutes of uh phone calls

01:14:06

I I gotta admit, uh, jesse, uh in uh in uh in twitter um

01:14:12

I no I can't the question is can you suggest a book that deals with the history of the church in munich?

01:14:19

Nope, no idea at all there. There may be something somewhere, but that's just a little little too specific, um maybe you're you're assuming because we're looking at munster, but uh, there's a reason why we're looking at what happened in munster because believe me what happened in munster was wild absolutely

01:14:39

Wild and we'll tell that story At another time, thanks for watching the dividing line today lord willing we'll be back again next week on a pretty much regular schedule