Pastors Panel Podcast- 9

Matthew 24 and the Premillennial Reading of the Tribulation

Pastor's panel podcast. What was that called? Thank you for joining us. If you'll notice on the bottom of the screen, we'd love to pray for you. All you have to do is type me ask questions. We want you to join the conversation.

It doesn't have to be about this topic. If you have a question about scripture a Bible verse. We have a panel here that would love to attempt to try to help you in your walk with Christ. That's what we're doing here.

Anyway, it's trying to share truth and in love so that we can grow up in all aspects into Christ. Every bit of his his life his word and and then apply it to our own. Tonight we're going to continue to look at Matthew chapter 24.

We should have pastor Jonathan joining us here shortly. He's it's been a minute since he's been with us and I'm hoping that he'll he'll come on here. And he'll have some more questions ready for us because he is he's the one of the group him and Pastor John big John.

They are the the non post-millennial point of view folks and it's good to have them to sharpen us to help us to think through our eschatology and So I think we learn from each other when we do that. And so I'm thankful for them and their questions and their Willingness to talk these things through with us.

And so Claude, how you doing tonight?

Doing good, sir. How are you?

Great Dan, how are you doing. Doing fantastic man? Glad to be here. How's the snow? Oh. We only got about another inch today, but we got the driveway cleared almost got above freezing but not not quite.

Looking like we might get above freezing on Wednesday.

Gotcha now Claude. Are you seeing any wintery mix yet?

I'm I am just thinking man. That must be cool to have snow already.

No, I like I enjoy it. It's bad it's when it all comes at once you get to.

Or.

One winter I remember we had about eight inches of snow every week on a Tuesday. So it's like every Tuesday. We've got eight inches of snow that got a little repetitive, but holy cow.

Now, I remember it used to snow that way when I was little. But we don't get those type of snows anymore.

I.

Don't want to mess y 'all up so.

The Sun, Moon, and Stars as Old Testament Judgment Language

Well Let's jump right in to to Matthew 24 because just to let everybody know. Those that like to watch these videos and learn along with us. We're gonna do This video and we're gonna do One more or is this it?

I think I forgot to look at the calendar. I think this is it for the year. Yeah. Yeah this is the last Monday in November and then we're gonna take a break for December and come back at the beginning of the Year, and so this is the last panel pastors panel podcast.

I really want to get through at least verse 41. We may not do that tonight, but I would like to at least get through that. So it may carry over into the beginning of the year. So without any further ado, let's let's jump right in.

So that we can make some make some progress. Since we've been together last talking about Matthew 24. Do you guys have any have anything to add or any questions that have come up any conversations that you've had recently?

On this topic. Nothing, okay, that's cool. That's cool, all right. Well Claude and I we ended it at verse 28 and I really appreciate your insights last time on that. Especially going back to Revelation.

I mean that was fantastic encouraging to my soul. So we've got to verse 29. In verse 29 says in Matthew chapter 24, but immediately after the tribulation. Of those days the Sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light and the stars will fall from the sky and The powers of the heavens will be shaken.

All right. So if you're coming from The the traditional premillennial dispensational view the the folks that believe in the rapture and then the tribulation. From your understanding, how do they view this verse?

How are they coming at it?

Well, I would say I'll go ahead and jump in. I think the the premillennial dispensational view Reads this as though that what the very phrase the tribulation is a period of as the. From the premillennial Premillennialist view they perceive the tribulation as that seven-year period of time.

Right, literally after the church is taken out. They that's the that's the teaching, right? They teach the church is taken and then there's a seven-year tribulation. And so this phrase here in 29 immediately after the tribulation of those days.

Just that phrase that's that's in context from the premillennial view of a Of the seven-year tribulation period in which the church will be gone. So the church won't see this. That's what you're saying that based on the premillennial dispensational view, yeah.

So Dan, how do they view or how do they interpret the the Sun business Sun Moon and? Sun will be dark and then the moon will not give us light. The stars will fall from the sky. From your understanding, how do they interpret that verse?

They like to say that they interpret it literally. It's really hard to understand. Because I've asked these questions and I've been to dispensational Bible colleges and I'm at a dispensational seminary right now.

It's hard to understand exactly What they they think is going to happen because in in the book of Revelation it describes these sorts of things as well during the tribulation.

Period.

Where it talks about you know a something falling from the heavens and then wormwood and touching the waters and then they're being trees burned up and Different things happening with earthquakes and stuff and it's hard to imagine That at that point there's going to be any part of earth left at all Period just because it looks like it's being completely destroyed during that time.

So when it comes here and it says that the Sun will be dark and the moon won't give us light the stars will fall from heaven. The powers of heaven will be shaken. It seems like at least in part From what I can tell there's going to be a major upheaval of the physical universe.

What that means I Couldn't tell you but in their understanding it is all Pulled together with the second coming of Christ and the establishment of his his kingdom on the earth. So I would I would I would assume and I hate to do that That there's a bit of rejuvenation to the earth as Christ returns.

But it won't be the final because in the final Rundown of everything they believe that at the end of the thousand-year reign There'll be a little season of Satan where he will come and deceive the nations again to gather together for war and then at the end Christ will End things will have the judgments and then all of the earth will be Completely destroyed and made anew that we will be the new heavens in the new earth.

So it's almost like it's an inauguration of what will take place at the end of Christ's reign upon the earth.

Okay. And I know there's different viewpoints within the post-millennial camp. And I heard you talk about this last night when we did our video. At the end time Satan that's when Satan will be released and and turmoil will come on the earth because of Satan.

And I'm thinking would that be one of the few places where we would have some some slight agreement with the pre-millennial dispensation is that we we do believe Postmill says that we are in the figurative millennial reign now.

But then at the end there will be that.

Last.

Terminal release of Satan before the second coming.

Well, some do and some don't okay. Um, I know I forget who exactly. Some believe that that it'll be more behind the scenes because if you look at the the Battle of Armageddon in Written Revelation, there's not actually a battle there.

It says that they're gathered Together to make war but then the end comes and they never actually the battle never actually begins.

So.

People fall anywhere in there on it. So some would some would agree some would disagree.

So.

Robert are you. Are. You are making reference to Revelation 20. I like to say verse 7 when the thousand years of expired Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the Nations which are in the four corners of the earth.

Is that what you're referring to?

Yeah, because as post meal we believe he is. He's bound and not able to deceive the nation currently. And then there's that.

Yeah, so there's that there's that question so that so then the question from the Pre are we are we trying to view this from the premillennial perspective? Like basically for right now for foundational purposes.

Well.

We were we were. I wanted to see it from their point of view. And then look the other point of view but when I heard Dan talking about that that time at the end. Where Satan will be released. I know that I've heard some teachers in listening to some post meal points of view Have talked about from a post meal perspective.

They believe that there will be a time at the end. After this after the millennial rank that we're in right now. They believe Satan will will be released at the end for a short period.

To try to deceive the nation one more time. Yeah one last have at it if you would have it, right?

Some people speculate that perhaps we have entered into Satan's little season now that the Reformation was kind of the height of of The kingdom and that now we're in the the little season I. I don't necessarily see that but I've heard heard people I have heard people say that.

So that is.

That is part of some post meal views that there there will be that time and there was this so there's a slight agreement with the premills. That Satan at the end Will have this he will be released and have he will have at it one more time.

Before he's cast into hell, right?

Right. So what would be just a quick question? For for me mentally work through it and maybe it might help. We figure how to word it here, right?

So.

What benefit is there or what comfort is there?

In.

In the view that the church won't be here and If the Chronology if the time order of of the premillennial view is what it is So if the church won't be here the church is gone. Satan is bound during that time.

Would that be a logical? Train of thought to assume if if we follow the scripture in the scripture says So Christ reigns Christ rules Satan is bound right for a thousand years again. That whole idea of the thousand years Has to be understood like and I love the quote the quote that you made last week Robert about being literal According to the literature, right?

So if the thousand years is literal And then After the literal thousand years Satan is let loose for a little period of time. Do does the premillennial?

View.

Assume That Satan regains power even for a short time after Christ has already ruled in rain. I.

Don't think that they I Don't think they believe that that he actually regains power, but he does pull some folks in order to Know a muster an army so to speak where he pulled up pull some people together who get ready to to battle against Christ in his kingdom.

Now, it does say that it's gonna be quite large.

So.

Would you look at the Language around where it talks about Armageddon. But I Really don't. Question is yeah. Hate to put words in somebody's mouth. Yeah.

You're you're going with them where you're coming from and that's kind of where I get confused sometimes in that Viewpoint as well. Because I didn't know where to place or where they place the the new heavens in the new earth and.

And some points of view would say that you know during that time. That that's when there's gonna be no more and no more crying, you know, we're no more death. There's not gonna be more death. Is so there are they seeing all those events happening during the millennial reign of Christ that there's not gonna be more death.

There's not gonna be more tears or sorrow. And then if that's the case that then kind of going on what you're saying. If Christ has already established this no more death. No more tears. No more suffering.

No more crying. He's wiped every tear away. Why would he release Satan one more time?

Right. That's my question. The logical flow of the thought. Yeah, right. Yeah.

From my understanding this where they put all those things within the millennial kingdom millennial reign of Christ. Which is another reason why I found it to be inconsistent because Dan and I have looked at it before where.

You you have the passages that talk about the new heavens in the new earth. You talk about people. They may be living longer, but they're eventually going, you know, they're gonna die when they die at a hundred.

They're gonna be considered young. Right, but there's still death in the new heavens and new earth. So yeah. That was part that was inconsistent to me hard for me to understand and piece together. And it would be nice to I guess to have someone on here that was You know really well versed in that yeah and could could help us understand that perspective.

Well since we talked about in verse 29 and I apologize for my voice my Congestion is really getting to me. We've looked at the pre meal point of view from the best that we can gather on verse 29. I want to let folks know of course.

The post meal perspective. Post-millennial perspective on verse 29. So Chronologically, let's establish that chronologically. Where are we in in the time frame in space and time? Where are we at verse 29?

We are at Jesus describing the coming judgment on Jerusalem.

Okay, and and looking back hindsight being 2020 we believe that the the tribulation And and his his second coming in judgment Culminated at 70 AD but that tribulation that great tribulation was happening, you know throughout that period culminating at 70 AD.

So Where is this prophecy the the Sun and moon and stars, where is that happening in that prophetic timeline? It's prophetic to them and him and the disciples at this point. So so where is that in the timeline?

Just so we can get oriented. So.

Honestly, I was prepared to talk on.

To.

The talk on the When we got to verse back to verse 30 a little bit more, okay. Dan, I don't know. Do you can you are Dan talk about that? Scriptural references.

I'm gonna Read this particular book. It actually has the answers to the pre-millennial questions. I just got sidetracked on. You're on verse 29 though.

Yeah.

I'm on verse 29 and and I do want to talk about how the post meal interprets the the Sun moon and stars. And and I do have an answer for that. But I was just just so we can get ourselves oriented because the pre-millennialists that and there's so you know, there's a ton of videos.

Most that's what most teaching. That type of teaching is is what takes place most often in churches. And so people were kind of familiar with with that timeline. I mean if you've seen John Hagee with all his posters, you know in his background.

He's like this is the next next event in prophetic history and then you have this and then you have this people are used to kind of a Timeline and if we can answer this question, we may have to you know, come back to it.

But if we could answer it to kind of give us an orientation. Where we are. I Think it would help folks because I think a lot of folks are used to timelines. We believe that it culminates at 70 AD all these things that Jesus is talking about would have been fulfilled.

Between then Jesus, you know speaking here and 70 AD. And we can just leave it at that if we want to he Jesus lived he died. He was buried. He rose from the grave and he ascended into heaven and Then from then on the disciples, you know begin to Write the New Testament.

They preach the gospel. They evangelize that they're going out but also at the same time these things are being beginning to be fulfilled and escalate. And then.

Ultimately.

Jerusalem and the temple are destroyed so we can leave it at that. So from the postmill perspective. Before I give my spiel Dan if you want to talk about what? How you think we view the the Sun being dark and the moon will not give us light and the stars fallen.

And then I can give the things that that I looked up if you want to share some of your thoughts.

Yeah, that that's a language taken straight out of the Old Testament. It's talking about the judgment upon a nation. For instance When we look in Isaiah 13 It's a it's a proclamation against the nation of Babylon.

Yes.

When he's proclaiming against Babylon saying Babylon who who has been doing terrible horrible things. There's a proclamation against them. They're going to fall. It then says verse 9 and then 10. It says behold the day of the Lord comes Cruel with both wrath and fierce anger to lay the land desolate and he will destroy its sinners from it so they've been found guilty of their sins and they're going to then be destroyed from the land because of Their sin and then how does he describe their destruction from the land?

He says for the stars of heaven and their constellations will not give their light. The Sun will be darkened and it's going forth and the moon will not cause its light to shine. It's the same language that we see here that whole Sun moon and stars ceasing to give their light ceasing to function it's it's a It gives some sort of cataclysmic ultimate cosmic Idea of what's going to happen over that nation that nation for that nation for Babylon.

It's going to be as if the Sun fell on them the stars aren't giving their light there's no more moon. They are going to be as if the world has stopped because they're going to not be there any longer.

They're going to be destroyed so when it comes to verse 29 immediately after the tribulation of those days, you know as they go through that time period where there the Cities under siege the temples having weird stuff done to it.

They come all the way up to the end. Right at the end of those days of tribulation. You know about three and a half years with that they suffered at the end of that immediately at the end of that time.

You're going to see The moon Not give us like stars fall from heaven in other words That's gonna mark the time when the judgment is going to be at its fullest. When the land is no longer theirs when they're going to be destroyed or punished because of their sins.

They're gonna be wiped out at that point in time. So it's kind of like a Like a process that leads up to an event Process of tribulation that leads up to a an instance in which Judgment is passed which is really interesting because it says then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven.

So it's not as if this is happening outside of God's control like this is Jesus the Son of Man the God man the Messiah the one that they rejected. Showing his displeasure at the sin of the nation of Israel.

Yeah.

Yeah, one of the distinctions that Bible teachers will tend to make In opposition against those of us who hold this view is going to be that well. We we take the Bible literally, you know. We interpret it literally and like you said Claudia and I got that that phrase that definition from Gary DeMar.

We we take the Bible literally too. We we read it literally according to the literature and Here according to the literature, this is you know Apocalyptic type literatures. It's Old Testament Judgmental language and in our interpret our interpretive method here is letting scripture interpret scripture.

Oh, man, and just like. And I wish I would have downloaded. I just saw a picture in one of our groups where I Can't remember that I didn't zoom in enough, but I can't remember they showed a percentage but they went through all the books in the New Testament and like showed a percentage of how much of that book they Quoted or used the Old Testament.

And so that's if if the New Testament writers did that then we should understand. Just like you and I talked about last week Claude, you know, we should start with the with the Old Testament. Understand it before we you know approach the New Testament and we would understand where these these New Testament writers were coming from and Like Dan was quoting he he was showing us.

They were familiar with this apocalyptic judgment language from the Old Testament and Joel and Amos Joel and Amos Ezekiel 30 32 verses 7 and 8 the the Sun enveloped with cloud moon withholding her light.

And then let's see.

They leave glasses have some of that same language.

Did you mention Joel. Joel I think is the one that talks about Jerusalem specifically showing wonders in the heavens and the earth darkening Sun and turning the moon into blood and. Then I thought and I learned this again from Gary DeMar.

We look at these Old Testament passages we see that it's Old Testament Judgmental type language, but but how do we know of course besides the context? He's you know, we know that he's talking about Judea fleeing from Judea.

We know kind of the geographical area, but he According to Gary DeMar and his teaching that he's using this type of language Borrowing from the Old Testament. He is also giving a clue About who he's talking about and if you look in Genesis chapter 37 and you look at Joseph's dream.

He had a dream of the the Sun moon and stars bowing down at the eleven stars what were his brothers and. The the Sun and the moon was his father and mother and they bowed down to him and the the Sun moon and stars according to Gary DeMar represented Israel and.

So we we know who Jesus is speaking about here because he's borrowing or using Old Testament Language and and they his original audience would have knew who he was talking about. They would have known about Joseph and his dream.

Yes, sir. Also who was down in the pit as one who was dead and then brought back up and received By his father as one who had been dead. There's tons of symbolism in that. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Absolutely. So that I hope that was clear and if if anybody's watching have any questions, please leave us a comment. We can see your comments. Let us know if we can touch on anything that you may be confused about and we'll try to answer those questions.

I hope that was that was clear. We're not against taking the Bible literally, but we want to understand it. We want to take it literally according to the literature, but scripture interprets scripture.

Interpreting it in its context understanding the language and let the Bible teach us. Been around liberal folks went to school with some liberal folks have liberal friends and one of their Accusations against us is that we you know, we want to put God in a box and I say whoa, I Look at the Bible.

I read the Bible and I'll let God tell me who he is. I'll let God put me in the box.

Man.

He puts me in the box and tells me who he is. And that's that's the way we interpret scripture or at least I do and I think these guys may be.

In a similar way. We let God tell us who he is. Um, can can I add one more thing? Absolutely. In just to build line upon line upon what you have said what Dan has said in? Particularly the passage that Dan read again.

Remembering that everything that Jesus was speaking he was speaking to men who Rightly understood what he was saying as a reference to the prophets the law and the prophets. And in the book of the Revelation again in verse 16 and 16 in verse chapter 16 verse 17.

The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air and a loud voice came out of the temple from the throne Saying it is done. And there were flashes of lightning rumbles peals of thunder and great earthquakes such as there never had been since man was on earth.

So great was that earthquake. And then the great city was split into three parts in the cities of the nation's fail. And God remembered Babylon the great to make her drain the cup of the what the why I start saying the what?

The wine of the fury of his wrath. All right, so in the book of Revelation again. What many folks fail to understand is that this is a this is leveled at? Jerusalem that great city. Jerusalem was the one who played the harlot.

Jerusalem was the one who who should not have been but turned into a Babylon. I mean, it's coming back full circle to them. Everything that the Lord said they are in the Old Testament.

I don't think that we've hit on it yet, but the that language again Such as there had not been since man came came to be upon the earth. That you know, that's part of this Matthew 24 to that that figurative language That we see in the Old Testament.

So let's go to verse 30. And then the son of the Son of Man will appear in the sky and then all All the tribes of the earth will mourn and they will see the Son of Man coming on the cloud of the sky with power and great glory.

I.

Think you were you're prepared for that one, right? Well, yeah, we talked about that last week. We did. Yep. Daniel Daniel 7. Jesus was not. It's not talking about Jesus coming to earth, but Jesus coming to heaven.

That's the ending on the cloud.

And that's the language that Daniel uses. Yes, we. Automatically when we read that word coming we we automatically think and maybe we've been trained to think that way or that's the way We've been taught, you know, someone is coming or he is coming to me.

There he's going to come to earth but that's not how It's used in the Old Testament here that. You know, just like we pointed this out last week He tells that Jesus tells us in verse 15 Which was spoken of through the Daniel the prophet, of course, he's talking about the abomination of desolation there.

But we know that Jesus is looking back To the Old Testament. He's looking back to Daniel and and there in Daniel that you referenced the way he uses that word Jesus is coming to the ancient of days. Amen.

Language here the linguistics behind it the way that he sets it up. The first part of the verse is as a sign of the Son of Man. So what's the sign the thing that you're gonna look for is going to be in heaven?

So automatically you've got to transport your point of view. All right, this is happening in heaven. That's right. He's coming on the clouds, okay, I'm already in heaven because I've been told to in the first part of the verse so he's Coming and then he sends his angels to the earth to gather the elect.

So even just letting the the words the prepositions the cues that tell you where where to go where to understand it gives that idea of your the perspective of Verse 30 is starting in heaven and viewing everything in light of being in heaven the Son of Man coming Sending his angels gathering the elect and bringing them to to relationship with God in heaven ultimately and then everywhere when It all gets all said and done.

So it's just a matter of understanding the the references Jesus is making. Understanding the words that he's using. Reading the text like Dan was saying how it's written getting our orientation, right?

And then we can understand the verse and it makes sense and it's consistent. Any any last words on verse 30? Verse 31. And he will send forth His angels with a great trumpet. They will gather together the elect from the four winds from one end of the sky to the other.

And Dan before Dan and I before we went on air because I had a conversation Sunday with a gentleman who was on the one it was. And of course, he believes that there's a tribulation yet to come. He believes all this is yet to come and he quoted me the the mark verse.

And I think it would be look good to look at that parallel passage. Was it mark chapter 12? 13 13 mark chapter 13, I believe.

I'll slip since then. I could be wrong.

Yeah, yeah, so so here's the parallel passage and it adds a little more information. Verse 27. And then he will send forth the angels and will gather together his elect from the four winds that we just saw that.

From the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven. Okay, so. What he was telling me was that? From his perspective when he when he saw from the farthest ends of the earth, that's the that's the living and.

To the farthest end of heaven. That's that's the dead those people who were in heaven. They're there they died here on earth. They're in heaven. So Jesus is going after them and then the people that are here on earth.

He's going after them. So he saw that as the the fulfillment of I guess the first Thessalonians 4 where he's he's gathering together the Living and the living and the dead. Or or second Timothy 4. He he didn't see this as as being fulfilled yet.

And so We we tried to answer that question. From a post-mill perspective.

The Gathering of the Elect and the Trumpet Call

Welcome pastor Jonathan. How are you? Hey guys doing good. I'm still in my vehicle drop my passenger off so wanted to jump on here and I'll turn my camera on when I get back in a safe position. Glad to be at y 'all this evening.

Sorry for my tardiness. I called Robert and told him that my appointment I had this afternoon went went longer. So.

Well, we're thankful for you and we're thankful for you to joining us. So, so how would you guys answer that question. He's sending his angels. They mentioned that and he's he's sending them to gather.

Is he like from the four winds of the earth and then of course at mark? He's come out from the farthest parts of heaven and for the furthest parts of earth.

So dead air, sorry, I'm uh. I'm having a technical difficulty here. I'm trying to work out.

Well, then you had a good answer last night off-air. Yeah, I'm trying to remember what it was.

What says that. They'll see the Son of Man coming in clouds of great power and glory. He'll send his angels and gather them his elect from the four winds. The four winds is a We take a Metaphorical type term.

It's a symbolic term meaning the whole earth. There's not there's not only just four winds. There's more than four winds out there. There's winds that blow all over the earth. They blow from the north or the south or the east or the west.

They blow all over the place. So he's gathering his elect from the earth whether they be Furthest part of earth or the farthest part of heaven. Whether they be Here or there. Whether they have already passed on or whether they're on the earth.

Gathering the elect together. One of the reasons why I extended into heaven because at that point in time Not all of his elect were on the earth. Not everybody was there yet. So you can't really pin it down to a point in time.

You know then. Because not everybody was here so when he's gathering it's an initial gathering because the blood of Christ had been shed. By proving his power over sin death and the devil by raising up out of the grave made atonement.

Salvation was actualizing it was. There it was purchased. Holy Spirit was applying it. He was gathering to himself all of his elect.

From.

Here there and all throughout time.

This is yes.

That's what he's getting at. He is. He's come in judgment on the old ways sin has met his match. Salvation has been brought and he's gathering his elect to himself.

And I would say that's another that just that point that you brought out there Dan To me is very encouraging to for the reason for us as Christians when we read the text of Scripture not just to Make glancing blows over words and phrases, but that term his elect.

The very fact that like you said that Of course, we don't know who the elect are right God calls God saves, you know, God redeems, but the very fact that We are still living and breathing and that this world is still going on as it has since the beginning is Indicator to us that It's still things are still going on.

God is still electing and redeeming a people unto himself. That is a wonderful point Dan, I appreciate that.

Well and.