Pastors Panel Podcast- 9

Welcome to the pastor's panel podcast. What was that, Claude? Thank you for joining us.

If you'll notice on the bottom of the screen, we'd love to pray for you. All you have to do is type me, ask questions.

We want you to join the conversation. It doesn't have to be about this topic. If you have a question about scripture, a

Bible verse, we have a panel here that would love to attempt to try to help you in your walk with Christ.

That's what we're doing here. Anyway, it's trying to share truth in love so that we can grow up in all aspects into Christ.

Every bit of his life, his word, and then apply it to our own.

Tonight, we're going to continue to look at Matthew chapter 24. We should have

Pastor Jonathan joining us here shortly. It's been a minute since he's been with us, and I'm hoping that he'll come on here and he'll have some more questions ready for us.

Because he's the one of the group, him and Pastor John, Big John.

They are the non -post -millennial point of view folks. It's good to have them to sharpen us, to help us to think through our eschatology.

I think we learn from each other when we do that. I'm thankful for them and their questions and their willingness to talk these things through with us.

Claude, how are you doing tonight? Doing good, sir. How are you? I'm doing good.

I'm great. Dan, how are you doing? Doing fantastic, man. Glad to be here. How's the snow? We only got about another inch today, but we got the driveway cleared.

Almost got above freezing, but not quite. Looking like we might get above freezing on Wednesday.

Gotcha. Now, Claude, are you seeing any wintery mix yet in your area? No, no.

Okay. I'm just thinking, man, that must be cool to have snow already.

I'm thinking the same thing. Dan's probably not. No, I enjoy it.

It's not too bad. It's when it all comes at once. You get two, three feet of snow.

That's when it gets to be annoying. One winter, I remember we had about eight inches of snow every week on a

Tuesday. It was like every Tuesday we got eight inches of snow. That got a little repetitive. Holy cow.

Now, I remember it used to snow that way when I was little, but we don't get those type of snows anymore.

I'm glad you said that, Dan, because I was thinking about saying it, but I don't want to mess you all up.

Well, let's jump right into Matthew 24, because just to let everybody know, those that like to watch these videos and learn along with us, we're going to do this video, and we're going to do one more.

Or is this it? I think I forgot to look at the calendar.

I think this is it for the year, right? This is it, yeah. Yeah, this is the last Monday in November, and then we're going to take a break for December and come back at the beginning of the year.

And so this is the last Pastor's Panel podcast. I really want to get through at least verse 41.

We may not do that tonight, but I would like to at least get through that so it may carry over into the beginning of the year.

So without any further ado, let's jump right in so that we can make some progress.

Since we've been together last, talking about Matthew 24, do you guys have anything to add or any questions that have come up, any conversations that you've had recently on this topic?

Nothing? Okay, that's cool. That's cool. All right. Well, Claude and I, we ended at verse 28, and I really appreciate your insights last time on that, especially going back to Revelation.

I mean, that was fantastic and encouraging to my soul. So we've got to verse 29. And verse 29 says in Matthew 24, but immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

All right? So if you're coming from the traditional premillennial dispensational view, the folks that believe in the rapture, and then the tribulation, from your understanding, how do they view this verse?

How are they coming at it? Well, I would say

I'll go ahead and jump in. I think the premillennial dispensational view reads this as, the very phrase, the tribulation, is a period of, from the premillennialist view, they perceive the tribulation as that seven -year period of time, right?

Literally after the church is taken out. That's the teaching, right?

They teach the church is taken, and then there's a seven -year tribulation. And so this phrase here in 29, immediately after the tribulation of those days, just that phrase, that's in context from the premillennial view of the seven -year tribulation period in which the church will be gone.

So the church won't see this? That's what you're saying? Based on the premillennial dispensational view.

Yeah, okay. So, Dan, how do they view or how do they interpret this sun business?

Sun, moon, and sun will be dark, and the moon will not give us light. The stars will fall from the sky.

From your understanding, how do they interpret that verse? They like to say that they interpret it literally.

It's really hard to understand because I've asked these questions, and I've been to dispensational

Bible colleges, and I'm at a dispensational seminary right now. It's hard to understand exactly what they think is going to happen because in the book of Revelation, it describes these sorts of things as well during the tribulation period where it talks about something falling from the heavens and then wormwood and touching the waters, and then there being trees burned up and different things happening with earthquakes and stuff.

And it's hard to imagine that at that point, there's going to be any part of earth left at all, period, just because it looks like it's being completely destroyed during that time.

So, when it comes here and it says that the sun will be dark, and the moon won't give us light, the stars will fall from heaven, the powers of heaven will be shaken, it seems like, at least in part, from what

I can tell, there's going to be a major upheaval of the physical universe. What that means,

I couldn't tell you, but in their understanding, it is all pulled together with the second coming of Christ and the establishment of his kingdom on the earth.

So, I would assume, and I hate to do that, that there's a bit of rejuvenation to the earth as Christ returns, but it won't be the final, because in the final rundown of everything, they believe that at the end of the thousand year reign, there will be a little season of Satan where he will come and deceive the nations again to gather together for war.

And then at the end, Christ will end things, he'll have the judgments, and then all of the earth will be completely destroyed and made anew, and that will be the new heavens and the new earth.

Right. So, it's almost like it's an inauguration of what will take place at the end of Christ's reign upon the earth.

Okay. All right. And I know there's different viewpoints within the post -millennial camp.

And I heard you talk about this last night when we did our video. At the end time, that's when

Satan will be released and turmoil will come on the earth because of Satan.

And I'm thinking, would that be one of the few places where we would have some slight agreement with the pre -millennial dispensation?

Is that we do believe, post -mill says that we are in the figurative millennial reign now, but then at the end, there will be that last turmoil release of Satan before the second coming.

Well, some do and some don't. Okay. I know,

I forget who exactly. Some believe that it'll be more behind the scenes because if you look at the battle of Armageddon in Revelation, there's not actually a battle there.

It says that they're gathered together to make war, but then the end comes and the battle never actually begins.

So, people fall anywhere in there on it. So, yeah, some would agree, some would disagree.

Claude has something to say. Go ahead, man. So, Robert, are you making reference to Revelation 20?

I like to say verse 7, when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth.

Is that what you're referring to, Robert? Yeah, because as post -meal, we believe he's bound and not able to deceive the nations currently.

And then there's that relief that you're talking about. Yeah, so there's that question.

So, then the question, are we trying to view this from the premillennial perspective?

Like, basically, for right now, for foundational purposes? Well, we were.

I wanted to see it from their point of view and then look at the other point of view.

But when I heard Dan talking about that time at the end where Satan will be released,

I know that I've heard some teachers in listening to some post -meal points of view have talked about, from a post -meal perspective, they believe that there will be a time at the end.

After the millennial reign that we're in right now, they believe Satan will be released at the end for a short period to try to deceive the nations one more time.

Yeah, one last have at it, if you would have it right for him. Yeah, right, right. I've even heard some people speculate that perhaps we have entered into Satan's little season now, that the

Reformation was kind of the height of the kingdom and that now we're in the little season.

I don't necessarily see that, but I have heard people say that.

So, that is part of some post -meal views that there will be that time.

So, there's a slight agreement with the premills that Satan, at the end, he will be released and he will have at it one more time before he's cast into hell, right?

Right. So, what would be, just a quick question for me to mentally work through it, and maybe it might help.

Let me figure out how to word it here right. So, what benefit is there or what comfort is there in the view that the church won't be here and if the chronology, if the time order of the premillennial view is what it is.

So, if the church won't be here, the church is gone, Satan is bound during that time.

Would that be a logical train of thought to assume if we follow the scripture and the scripture says, so,

Christ reigns, Christ rules, Satan is bound, right, for a thousand years.

Again, that whole idea of the thousand years has to be understood, and I love the quote that you made last week,

Robert, about being literal according to the literature, right? So, if the thousand years is literal and then after the literal thousand years,

Satan is let loose for a little period of time, does the premillennial view assume that Satan regains power even for a short time after Christ has already ruled and reigned?

I don't think that they, I don't think they believe that he actually regains power, but he does pull some folks in order to muster an army, so to speak, where he pulls some people together who get ready to battle against Christ and his kingdom.

Now, it does say that it's going to be quite large, so when you look at the language around where it talks about Armageddon, but I really don't know.

Do you all understand what my question is? Yeah, I hate to put words in somebody's mouth.

Yeah. I think I know where you're going with it and where you're coming from, and that's kind of where I get confused sometimes in that viewpoint as well, because I didn't know where to place or where they placed the new heavens and the new earth, and some points of view would say that during that time, that's when there's going to be no more crying, no more death, there's not going to be more death.

So are they seeing all those events happening during the millennial reign of Christ, that there's not going to be more death, there's not going to be more tears or sorrow?

And then if that's the case, then kind of going on what you're saying, if Christ has already established this no more death, no more tears, no more suffering, no more crying, he's wiped every tear away, why would he release

Satan one more time? Right. That's my question. The logical flow of the thought.

Right. Yeah. From my understanding, that's where they put all those things within the millennial kingdom, the millennial reign of Christ, which is another reason why

I found it to be inconsistent, because Dan and I have looked at it before where you have the passages that talk about the new heavens and the new earth, you talk about people, they may be living longer, but they're eventually going to die.

When they die at 100, they're going to be considered young. Right. But they're still dead in the new heavens and new earth.

So, yeah, that was part that was inconsistent to me, hard for me to understand and piece together.

And it would be nice to, I guess, to have someone on here that was really well -versed in that and could help us understand that perspective.

Well, since we talked about in verse 29, and I apologize for my voice, my congestion is really getting to me.

We've looked at the pre -meal point of view from the best that we can gather. On verse 29,

I want to let folks know, of course, the post -meal perspective, post -millennial perspective on verse 29.

So, chronologically, let's establish that. Chronologically, where are we in the time frame, in space and time, where are we at verse 29?

We are at Jesus describing the coming judgment on Jerusalem. Okay.

And looking back, hindsight being 2020, we believe that the tribulation and his second coming in judgment culminated at 70

AD, but that great tribulation was happening throughout that period, culminating at 70

AD. So, where is this prophecy, the sun and moon and stars, where is that happening in that prophetic timeline?

It's prophetic to them and him and the disciples at this point. So, where is that in the timeline?

Just so we can get oriented. So, honestly,

I was prepared to talk on... to talk on the...

when we got back to verse 30 a little bit more. Dan, I don't know, can you or Dan talk about that?

Scriptural references. I'm going to read this particular book.

It actually has the answers to the pre -millennial questions I just got sidetracked on. Okay, that's cool. You're on verse 29, though?

Yeah, I'm on verse 29, and I do want to talk about how the postmeal interprets the sun, moon, and stars, and I do have an answer for that.

But I was just... just so we can get ourselves oriented because the pre -millennialists, and there's a ton of videos, that's what most teaching...

that type of teaching is what takes place most often in churches, and so people are kind of familiar with that timeline.

I mean, if you've seen John Hagee with all his posters, you know, in his background, he's like, this is the next event in prophetic history, and then you have this, and then you have this.

People are used to kind of a timeline, and if we can answer this question, we may have to, you know, come back to it, but if we can answer it to kind of give us an orientation of where we are,

I think it would help folks because I think a lot of folks are used to timelines. We believe that it culminates at 70

A .D. All these things that Jesus is talking about have been fulfilled between then,

Jesus, you know, speaking here, and 70 A .D., and we can just leave it at that if we want to.

Jesus lived, he died, he was buried, he rose from the grave, then he ascended into heaven, and then from then on, the disciples, you know, begin to write the

New Testament, they preach the gospel, they evangelize, they're going out, but also at the same time, these things are beginning to be fulfilled and escalate, and then ultimately,

Jerusalem and the temple are destroyed, so we can leave it at that. So from the post -middle perspective, before I give my spiel,

Dan, if you want to talk about how you think we view the sun being dark and the moon will not give us light and the stars falling, and then

I can give the things that I looked up if you want to share some of your thoughts.

Yeah, that's a language taken straight out of the Old Testament. It's talking about the judgment upon a nation.

For instance, when we look in Isaiah 13, it's a proclamation against the nation of Babylon.

Yes. And when he's proclaiming against Babylon, saying Babylon, who has been doing terrible, horrible things, there's a proclamation against them, they're going to fall, it then says, verse 9 and then 10, it says,

Behold, the day of the Lord comes, cruel with both wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate, and he will destroy its sinners from it.

So they've been found guilty of their sins and they're going to then be destroyed from the land because of their sin.

And then how does he describe their destruction from the land? He says, For the stars of heaven and their constellations will not give their light.

The sun will be darkened and it's going forth and the moon will not cause its light to shine.

It's the same language that we see here. That whole sun, moon, and stars ceasing to give their light, ceasing to function.

It gives some sort of cataclysmic, ultimate cosmic idea of what's going to happen over that nation.

For that nation, for Babylon, it's going to be as if the sun fell on them, the stars aren't giving their light, there's no more moon.

They are going to be as if the world has stopped because they're going to not be there any longer.

They're going to be destroyed. So when it comes to verse 29, immediately after the tribulation of those days, as they go through that time period where the city is under siege, the temple is having weird stuff done to it, they come all the way up to the end.

Right at the end of those days of tribulation, about three and a half years that they suffered, at the end of that, immediately at the end of that time, you're going to see the moon not give its light.

Stars fall from heaven. In other words, that's going to mark the time when the judgment is going to be at its fullest, when the land is no longer theirs, when they're going to be destroyed or punished because of their sins.

They're going to be wiped out at that point in time. So it's kind of like a process that leads up to an event.

It's a process of tribulation that leads up to an instance in which judgment is passed, which is really interesting because it says, then the sign of the

Son of Man will appear in heaven. So it's not as if this is happening outside of God's control.

This is Jesus, the Son of Man, the God -Man, the

Messiah, the one that they rejected, showing his displeasure at the sin of the nation of Israel.

Yeah. One of the distinctions that Bible teachers will tend to make in opposition against those of us who hold this view is going to be that we take the

Bible literally. We interpret it literally. Like you said, Claudia, and I got that phrase, that definition from Gary DeMar.

We take the Bible literally, too. We read it literally according to the literature.

And here, according to the literature, this is apocalyptic -type literature.

It's Old Testament judgmental language. And our interpretive method here is letting

Scripture interpret Scripture. Oh, man. And I wish

I would have downloaded it. I just saw a picture in one of our groups where I can't remember.

I didn't zoom in enough, but I can't remember if they showed a percentage, but they went through all the books in the

New Testament and showed a percentage of how much of that book they quoted or used the

Old Testament. And so if the New Testament writers did that, then we should understand, just like you and I talked about last week,

Claude, we should start with the Old Testament and understand it.

Before we approach the New Testament, we would understand where these

New Testament writers were coming from. And like Dan was quoting, he was showing us they were familiar with this apocalyptic judgment language from the

Old Testament. That's right. Joel and Amos. Joel and Amos.

Ezekiel 32, verses 7 and 8. The sun enveloped with cloud, moon withholding her light.

And then, let's see. Ecclesiastes has some of that same language.

Ecclesiastes. And did you mention Joel? Mm -hmm. Joel, I think, is the one that talks about Jerusalem specifically, showing wonders in the heavens and the earth, darkening the sun and turning the moon into blood.

And then I thought, and I learned this, again, from Gary DeMar, we look at these

Old Testament passages, we see that it's Old Testament judgmental -type language, but how do we know, of course, besides the context, we know that he's talking about Judea, fleeing from Judea.

We know kind of the geographical area. But he, according to Gary DeMar and his teaching, that he's using this type of language, borrowing from the

Old Testament. He is also giving a clue about who he's talking about. And if you look in Genesis chapter 37, and you look at Joseph's dream, he had a dream of the sun, moon, and stars bowing down.

The 11 stars were his brothers, and the sun and the moon was his father and mother, and they bowed down to him.

And the sun, moon, and stars, according to Gary DeMar, represented Israel.

And so we know who Jesus is speaking about here because he's borrowing or using

Old Testament language, and his original audience would have knew who he was talking about.

They would have known about Joseph and his dream. Yes, sir. Joseph, who was put down in the pit as one who was dead and then brought back up and received by his father as one who had been dead.

There's tons of symbolism in that. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. So I hope that was clear, and if anybody's watching and have any questions, please leave us a comment.

We can see your comments. Let us know if we can touch on anything that you may be confused about, and we'll try to answer those questions.

I hope that was clear. We're not against taking the Bible literally, but we want to understand it.

We want to take it literally according to the literature. Let Scripture interpret Scripture, interpreting it in its context, understanding the language, and let the

Bible teach us. I've been around liberal folks, went to school with some liberal folks, have liberal friends, and one of their accusations against us is that we want to put

God in a box, and I say, whoa. I look at the Bible, I read the Bible, and I let God tell me who he is.

I let God put me in the box. Amen. He puts me in the box and tells me who he is, and that's the way we interpret

Scripture, or at least I do, and I think these guys may be in a similar way.

We let God tell us who he is. Can I add one more thing? Absolutely. And just to build line upon line upon what you have said, what

Dan has said, and particularly the passage that Dan read, again, remembering that everything that Jesus was speaking, he was speaking to men who rightly understood what he was saying as a reference to the prophets, the law and the prophets.

And in the book of the Revelation, again, in chapter 16, verse 17, the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple from the throne, saying,

It is done. And there were flashes of lightning, rumbles, peals of thunder, and great earthquakes, such as there never had been since man was on earth.

So great was that earthquake. And then the great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell.

And God remembered Babylon the Great to make her drain the cup of the wrath, the wine of the fury of Israel, All right?

So in the book of Revelation, again, what many folks fail to understand is that this is leveled at Jerusalem, that great city.

Jerusalem was the one who played the harlot. Jerusalem was the one who should not have been, but turned into, a

Babylon. I mean, it's coming back full circle to them.

Everything that the Lord said there in the Old Testament. Yep, absolutely.

And I don't think that we've hit on it yet, but that language again, such as there had not been since man came to be upon the earth, that's part of this

Matthew 24 too, that figurative language that we see in the

Old Testament. So let's go to verse 30. And then the Son of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the

Son of Man coming on the cloud of the sky with power and great glory. I think you were prepared for that one, right,

Claude? Yeah, we talked about that last week. We did, yep. Daniel 7.

Jesus was not, it's not talking about Jesus coming to earth, but Jesus coming to heaven, ascending on the cloud.

And that's the language that Daniel uses. Yes. We automatically, when we read that word coming, we automatically think, and maybe we've been trained to think that way, or that's the way we've been taught.

You know, someone is coming, or he is coming to me. He's going to come to earth.

But that's not how, it's used in the Old Testament here. You know, just like we pointed this out last week.

He tells us, Jesus tells us in verse 15, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet.

Of course, he's talking about the abomination of desolation there, but we know that Jesus is looking back to the

Old Testament. He's looking back to Daniel. And there in Daniel that you referenced, the way he uses that word,

Jesus is coming to the ancient of days. Amen. The language here, the linguistics behind it, the way that he sets it up, the first part of the verse is a sign of the son of man.

So what's the sign? The thing that you're going to look for is going to be in heaven. So automatically you've got to transport your point of view.

All right, this is happening in heaven. He's coming on the clouds. Okay. I'm already in heaven because I've been told to in the first part of the verse.

So he's coming and then he sends his angels to the earth to gather the elect.

So even just letting the words, the prepositions, the cues that tell you where, where to go, where to understand.

It gives that idea of your, the perspective of verse 30 is starting in heaven and viewing everything in light of being in heaven.

Son of man coming, sending his angels, gathering the elect and bringing them to, to a relationship with God in heaven, ultimately, and then everywhere when it all gets all said and done.

Right. So it's just a matter of, of understanding the references

Jesus is making, understanding the words that he's using, reading the text, like Dan was saying, how it's written, getting our orientation, right.

And then we can understand the verse and it makes sense. And it's consistent. Uh, any, any last words on verse 30 verse 31, and he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet.

They will gather together the elect from the four winds from one end of the sky to the other. And Dan, Dan and I, before we went on air, because I had a conversation

Sunday with a gentleman who was on the list. And of course he's, he believes that there's a tribulation yet to come.

He believes all this is yet to come. And he quoted me the, the Mark verse. Um, and I think it would be good to look at that parallel passage.

Uh, was it Mark chapter 12 or 13, 13,

Mark chapter 13. I believe, um, I'll slip since then

I could be wrong. Let's see.

Yeah. Yeah. So, so here's the parallel passage and it adds a little more information.

Um, verse 27. And then he will send forth the angels and we'll gather together his elect from the four winds that we just saw that from the farthest end of the earth to the father's end of heaven.

Okay. So what he was telling me was that from his perspective, when he, when he saw, uh, from the farthest ends of the earth, that's the, that's the living and to the father's end of heaven.

That's, that's the dead. Those people who were in heaven, they're there. They died here on earth. They're in heaven.

So Jesus is going after them. And then the people that are here on earth, he's going after them.

So he saw that as the fulfillment of, um, I guess the first Thessalonians four, where he's, he's gathering together the, the living and the living and the dead or, or second

Timothy four. Um, he, he didn't see this as, as being fulfilled yet.

And so we, uh, we tried to answer that question, uh, from a postmill perspective.

Welcome pastor Jonathan. How are you? Hey guys, doing good. I'm still in my vehicle, but, just dropped my passenger off.

So wanted to jump on here and I'll turn my camera on when I get back in a safe position.

I'm glad to be at y 'all this evening. Sorry for my tardiness. I called Robert and told him that my appointment that I had this afternoon went, went longer.

So we're thankful for you and we're thankful for you to joining us. Um, so, so how would you guys answer that question?

Um, he's, he's sending his angels. Dan mentioned that. And he's, he's sending them to gather his leg from the four winds of the earth.

And then of course, Mark, he's talking about the farthest parts of heaven and for the furthest parts of earth.

So dead air, sorry. I'm a, I'm having a technical difficulty here. I'm trying to work out.

Well, Dan, you had a good answer last night off air. Yeah. I'm trying to remember what it was. Um, what says that, uh, they'll see the sun man coming in clouds of great power and glory.

He'll send his angels and gather them. His election, the four winds, the four winds is a, a metaphorical type term.

It's a symbolic term meeting the whole earth. Cause there's not, there's not only just four winds, but there's more than four winds out there.

There's winds that blow all over the earth. They blow from the north or the south or the east or the west.

They blow all over the place. Uh, so he's gathering his elect from the earth, uh, whether they be, uh, furthest part of earth or the farthest part of heaven, whether they be here or there, whether they have already passed on or whether they're on the earth, he's gathering the elect together.

One of the reasons why I send it into heaven, because at that point in time, not all of his elect were on the earth.

Not everybody was there yet. So you can't really pin it down to a point in time.

Then because not everybody was here. So when he's gathering, it's an initial gathering because the blood of Christ had been shed, by proving his power over sin, death, and the devil by raising up out of the grave, made atonement of salvation was actualized.

And it was, it was there. It was purchased. The Holy spirit was applying it.

And he was gathering to himself all of his elect from here, there, and all throughout time.

This is, I think that's what he's getting at. He is, he's come in judgment on the old ways.

Sin has met its match. Salvation has been brought and he's gathering his elect to himself.

And I would say that's another, that just that point that you brought out there,

Dan to me is very encouraging too. For the reason for us as Christians, when we read the text of scripture, not just to make glancing blows over words and phrases, but that term, he is elect the very fact that like you said, that of course we don't know who the elect are, right?

God calls God saves, you know, God redeems. But the very fact that we are still living and breathing and that this world is still going on as it has since the beginning is a indicator to us.

That it's still, things are still going on. God is still electing and redeeming a people unto himself.

I, that is a wonderful point, Dan. I appreciate that. Well, and, and Matthew words that like this, you know, we looked at Mark and Mark says further sins of heaven, further sins of earth.

But, but Matthew worded differently when he says from, from one end of the sky to the other.

So I'm taking the, I'm reading that as if he's just speaking of the whole globe, you know, he's, he's going out to get them.

He's going out to get them wherever they are and whatever time period they live in. He's, he's going out to get them there.

He's not going to leave, you know, a stone unturned. He's going to go everywhere. Right. And one other thing.

It just popped into my head. Remember last night, we talked about Psalm two, about how the nations were raging against God, how

God held them in derision, laughed. And then he got very serious about the wrath of God that was coming on those.

And that he had already set his King on Zion, that Christ on Zion, that morning when they died.

And that, that, um, it's a son.

Well, she perished in the way that's the wrath of God comes on you, but blessed is the one who turns.

Now, if we look back at verse 30, when the sign of the son of man appears in heaven, um, and then the tribes of the earth were more.

Yes. It's a fulfillment of Psalm two, because the one who's being brought up and set on the throne of heaven, it's a fulfillment of Psalm two, where God is laughing at all the schemes of man that we would think that we could have autonomy over God's creation, but we can't that at that point, they're going to start to be put under the feet of the sun.

And so now they have the opportunity. He says, kiss the sun, pay homage to him. No, don't come up under his rule because his rule is rightly good.

Kiss the sun, bless you parish. And what we start saying is that they, uh, the tribes of the earth will mourn and they will see the son of man coming on the clouds with great power and glory.

And what does he do? The very last part of Psalm two says, blessed is the one who trusts in the

Lord. Uh, but it says here, he will send his angels with a great sound of trumpet and they will gather his elect from the four winds.

It's talking about Christ ascending to the throne and gathering his people blessing those who trust in him, who place their faith in him and punishing those who will not, uh, bow the knee, remain in their sin and rebellion.

So really it's the, he's saying he's giving you a timetable of when

Psalm two is going to be, um, fulfilled. Psalm two is going to be fulfilled immediately after the tribulation of those days, when judgment is needed out, when all these other things take place.

Let me ask you this question and, and tell me if you think I'm off base, but if you, if you start in verse 31 and it says, and he will send forth his angels with a, with a great trumpet, we know what angels mean.

Messenger. He will send forth his, his messengers with a great trumpet.

When he sends his messengers, the King sends his messenger with a great trumpet. He has a great message.

I have a great message. Is that the gospel? Oh, or is he sending out his messengers into the earth all over the globe with the gospel to bring forth his elect?

I would, I would say yes. Um, I would say yes in two ways.

Uh, one, I think we can take angels here as being angelic being how they're, they're working, uh, to do

God's will to help the gospel go forward. Uh, the Holy Spirit obviously doing both the work, but also in the plain sense of messenger, um, what does it says in Romans?

How the beautiful, those who bring the good news.

Um, we are messengers, but I think it's, it's yes in multiple senses.

Okay. Either, either way you take it, it's God doing the work of bringing the gospel through the power of the

Holy Spirit and the proclamation of, of what he's done for us to bear upon the world.

So you don't think that I would be way far outfield to interpret it that way?

No. I hesitate because there's always a, there's always a possibility that we, we say something, we get excited about it, understand the case and go crazy with it.

Yeah. But yeah, if we just get like right there at that level so far, yeah, man, absolutely.

But without doing those extra thought exercises and thinking through what you're doing, you kind of want to be careful that you don't jump off and sign on to something that you didn't want to sign on to.

Exactly. I'm there with you. And that's why I asked the question.

So I think it's a great parallel. What you just said, Robert, I think that's a good interpretation.

My, my question though, too, is the other trumps that are in the Bible. Does this, does this trumpet parallel, you know, first Thessalonians four or revelation with those trumpets?

And, and I know I missed a bit of the conversation. Is this a firm, futuristic event?

So that is a two part question that you, that I'm just curious, curious from your point of view.

Okay. You dropped out just for a second there at the end. So can you restate your question? Okay. So it's a, it's a two part question.

One, does this, does this trumpet have any parallels with other trumpets in the new

Testament? You know, first Thessalonians four, the trump will sound, the dead in Christ will rise.

And those who are alive will be caught up with him or in the trumpets of the book of revelation.

And that's the first question. And then I know I missed part of the conversation coming in late. So is this event, a preterist event, or is this a futuristic event or is it a, both end the process?

I guess it is. It has happened. It is happening and will continue to happen. Can I, is it okay if I jump in?

Absolutely. Okay. I don't want to jump ahead to anybody. So, so Jonathan, I would answer,

I would answer your question in saying that this in context, again, we're, we're, we're in the context is

Jesus speaking to those concerning the judgment to come on them.

So he says, and he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call.

And so your, your, your question is this a preterist or partial preterist view, or is this a futurist view?

I would say in the context of what he's saying, immediate context that it certainly was a futurist, a warning, but a near future within the next 30 years.

So I would say as a, as a, as a quote unquote, giving them a somewhat of a heads up.

Yes, it was a futurist statement, but in the, in the, in the larger context,

I'm sorry, go ahead. Sorry, guys. Oh, that's okay. Go ahead.

I'm sorry. I disconnected from my, my Bluetooth. Sorry about that. Oh, so that was your phone talking or your car talking.

Okay. So again, with the, with the loud trumpet call again, the context is a, a message being announced, a word going out again, in context of the old

Testament. This is what we, we saw the prophets heralding as if it were blowing a trumpet, making an announcement.

And then in the book of revelation, when the trumpets are blown, what is it about?

It's about those coming judgments, right? So there's those judgments being poured out.

And my answer, that was my long answer. My short answer is a futurist with a very near future idea.

And then, and also a partial prejudice view in that. This is, it has to be understood in what has already taken place in the old

Testament and the words and the warnings that were given to them. Okay.

Cool. I really, for myself personally,

I really need to, I want to look at first Thessalonians four and five. To, to kind of understand it better and where I believe that, that he's coming from, because some people say that that's the rapture.

Some people say it's the, the resurrection. Some people say that first Thessalonians four is part of the partial preterist position that was fulfilled, you know, within that time period between Jesus and 70

AD. So I know Jonathan, you asked about the trumpet in first Thessalonians four.

And so I want to look at that deeper myself to, so that I can kind of decide where I feel like it lands on that spectrum.

Do you have any thoughts on where first Thessalonians four lands, Dan? Maybe. Okay.

Hold on a second. Let me get there. Pages are trying to stick together.

My hands are so cold that they don't want to stick to any paper. We're not cold dry.

I should say, I know that I want to,

I want to say it's scary tomorrow. I want to say that he thinks it's the resurrection.

I do too. And here's why it says that when this trumpet is blown, it is that the

Lord himself will descend from heaven. If we look what happened in the, in Matthew, what we saw is that we're looking at the vision at the end of, of those days of tribulation from the viewpoint of heaven, there's a sign in heaven.

He's coming up there and then he's gathering his elect from the four, from the four winds while he's still up in heaven.

And this says that he's returning to earth, blowing a trumpet that says the dead in Christ will rise first.

And why is that? Well, because they're coming with him. Their bodies are coming up there to meet him. And then we, who are there going to be caught up together.

We're going to be changed and we'll forever be with the Lord. So he's saying that, you know, don't, don't lose hope because you have a loved one who has died.

Remember that their souls are presently with the Lord. And when he returns, he's going to join their souls with their bodies and we're all going to be together with Jesus forever.

So I think first Corinthians four is talking about the resurrection. So you have a, you have a different description of what

Jesus is doing in Matthew 24 and what he's doing in first Thessalonians four, right? In Matthew chapter 24,

Jesus is coming up fulfillment of Daniel seven. He's coming up. The sign of him is to appear in the sky.

He's coming up to the ancient of days. And then he's sending out his messengers with the gospel.

He's sending out his messengers to, to gather his elect from the four winds here in first Thessalonians four.

He's instead of coming up, he's now descending right. Right. And, and that it's probably been up to what, which means he would have already been up in heaven, right?

Now, um, as far as, this trumpet here in Matthew, uh, 24, um, with a great sound, sound of a great trumpet, and they will gather his elect from the four winds of the earth, uh, into heaven.

And when you look at the trumpets in revelation, if you understand them as, uh, taking place, um, during the same events as Matthew 24, when you come to the last one, uh, it says the seventh angel sounded, uh, in, what was that?

Chapter 11, verse 15. And there were loud voices in heaven saying, the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our

Lord and of his Christ. And he shall reign forever and ever. Um, and then it describes all those things.

And it says the temple of our God has, was open in heaven and the ark of his covenant, uh, was seen in his temple and there were lightnings and noises and thunders and earthquake and great hail, that kind of apocalyptic, uh, and of the world type language, which went along with the judgment that you would see, um, with the coming.

So this trumpet, Matthew 24, I do believe is, um, related to, uh, these trumpets that we find in revelation.

Uh, cause when it says the kings of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord. And as we understand the, uh, the son of man ascending into heaven and the tribes morning, being a fulfillment of song to where Christ has been placed on his rightful place in the throne of heaven.

He's been given the kingdoms of the earth and now they have the choice or the responsibility to stop the rebellion, to kiss the sun.

I think those, those trumpets are this are the same trumpets. Is that kind of answer your question,

Jonathan? Yeah, I just, I'm just curious about that point point of view and like, like, but that's where I, I was kind of, one of my questions that I had in this is, is from a partial preterist point of view of Matthew 24 being fulfilled in a past tense.

And again, defining preterist is simply as things of the past, you know, things that have been fulfilled in prophecy.

it's not a, again, I told y 'all before some of the rays that that was a bad word if you're a preterist. So this defining it as simple as that, that it's been filled, you know, it, uh, you know, just, you know, is, does, does

Matthew 24 have any futuristic connotations to it as well? And that's one of the things that I've actually, in my research, been studying some of this, it's kind of like our salvation too.

I think some of these things are, are, are like our salvation. I have, I have a point in my past where I was converted and, and that, that I met

Christ and in a Bible sense, I would say I was saved. And, and in my sanctification and the work that God is doing in me and I am being kept by the power of God, as first Peter says.

So now I'm being saved. And then we're talking about a resurrection of glorification. I will be saved.

So, so when we look at trumpets throughout, you know, I think there's many connotations in the gathering of the elect.

I think our definitions of what we were talking there tonight, as I was listening to you guys driving in, you know, even like what

Robert was saying, uh, that, that definition of the messenger with a trumpet, with a message, with the sounding of, of good news.

If that is the gospel, then by all means, that is something that has a preterist meaning.

It has been done. Praise God. It is being done. And for as long as God allows, it will continue to be done.

Even until all of eternity, the gospel will be proclaimed by his messenger, by him.

So, um, so again, too, I'm just looking for threads that continue to unify us, even while we take, are able to joyfully take different positions in different stances.

You know, I'm, I'm thankful for the unification in all of that. But like I said, the trumpet is something that is always, um, uh, mystified.

It's not the right word, but it's always intriguing. That's the word I'm looking for. There, there are so many references to trumpets and, and, uh, you know, some of my

Pentecostal brothers loved us to blow the shofars and, you know, we, you know, I, I don't think it's a brass trumpet like we think of in a, in a band or a trombone, you know, uh, but, uh, you know, but if you think about blowing a shofar and the sound of that makes and, and the blow the ram's horn as they're going around the walls of Jericho in the old

Testament, connotations of the beautiful things of the trumpet and the blowing of the ram's horn and the blowing of that, you know, there's always a significance around that.

So I'm always looking to where the link is, you know, in, in all of that as we're walking through it, because I do think,

I do think it ties into Revelation and I don't think it's accident that Paul's referencing a trumpet in first Thessalonians four too.

And so, I mean, in first Thessalonians four also is what I mean and, um, in chapter four there.

So, um, so anyways, just, just, just an interesting question. You know,

I just wanted you guys to point of view. So that's good. It's good stuff. Uh, yeah,

I like that. I like that thread that you were making to that, um, comparison was with salvation and sanctification and glorification.

And, um, and that's similar to what, how Dan was describing this, uh, verse 31, that this was a beginning.

And like you said, Jonathan is going to continue. And then we're going to proclaim the gospel, um, in eternity, not, not to win souls, but to glorify, glorify the lamb, glorify the lamb.

Oh, wow. It's going to be glorious. Are you guys ready to move on to 32 or have any last thoughts on a 31?

All right, let's move to, to 32. Um, this is, this is where we get to the popular part, um, working our way to verse 34, but, uh, this is interesting as well.

Um, verse 32, now learn the parable from the fig tree. When its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know, that summer is near.

I'm seeing that as, as Jesus telling them, um, when you see these things be looking around, something's around the corner.

Am I going in the right direction? Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

In light of what he's already told them, he's saying, so here it is. Right. Is there any, anything deeper here that we need to be looking for?

Or is Jesus the same? Just, just like you look at a, you know, a fruit tree. When you start seeing, you know, leaves blooms, you know, there's going to be fruit soon.

When you start seeing these signs, the coming is going to be soon.

Is that correct? Okay. Verse, verse 33 solidifies that.

The point. Okay. Verse, verse 33 also. Yeah. Yeah. So also when you see all these things, you know that he is near at the very gates, right?

Even so you, um, and there he goes again.

And I think it would be encouraging to, uh, if anybody can help us understand the, the pre meal, uh, or on meal perspective, um, because up, up until this point,

I think there's somewhat of an agreement that Jesus has, um, has an audience here or, or who, who he's speaking to there's agreement, but then it changes around verse 33 and 34.

And, and they want to say that his audience there is, is different than what it was previously.

So verse 33 says, even so you, going back to the beginning of, of chapter 24, it's, he's speaking to his disciples, the ones who was asked, asking him questions.

He's answering their questions. Even so you too, when you see all these things recognize that he is near right at the door or the gate, like you said,

Claude. So audience is still the same from my understanding.

Yes. Okay. And then verse, verse 34, unless he might wants to stop us.

Verse 34. I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

So that's, that's where the, the pre -millennialist, um, dispensationalists would say that the audience changes, that Jesus is no longer speaking to his original audience, answering their question.

He's speaking to a future audience, the generation that sees these signs.

Um, I find that to be inconsistent because he's, um, he continually says, like,

I, I just underline them in my Bible so that I could find them real quick. Uh, verse 25 behold,

I have told you in advance. So he's, he's telling them to be looking for these signs.

But then all of a sudden verse 34, but it's going to be the generation that sees these signs in the future will not pass away until all these things take place.

I find it to be, you know, inconsistent to make that transition.

Um, what are you guys thoughts on that? Well, while you're thinking, while you're thinking, um,

I would agree with you. Okay. Well, I have to include, um, Matthew chapter 10.

If you, you know, when you look at context, you want to look at the immediate verse context, chapter context, book context,

Bible context, uh, to, to help you, um, understand the meaning of the text.

So within the book context, um, and I know that there's different, different ways of looking at these things, but, um, just looking at the consistency of it all,

Matthew chapter 10, verse 23, he says, but whenever they, persecute you in this city, flee to the next for truly,

I say to you, you shall not finish going through the cities of Israel until the son of man comes.

And then verse chapter 16, verse 28, chapter 16, verse 28.

He says, truly, I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the son of man coming in his kingdom.

And, and that's where I find the consistency. it's similar language.

You, this generation will not pass away in verse 28 of 16. Some of you are standing here will not, shall not taste death until they see the son of man coming in his kingdom.

Um, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Um, that's where I see the consistency.

Um, and that's what's, what's leading me to say that this is a partial preterist, um, perspective.

Jesus is saying these things will happen to, to that generation. Does anybody know right off hand?

Because we, I've been trying to, to bring that other perspective in, um, can, can anybody relate to us how they make that transition?

Uh, I think that they agree that earlier, Jesus is speaking to the disciples, but then in verse 34,

Jesus is speaking to a future generation. And I think I heard Thomas ice.

Maybe it was him. Explain how he, he gets a, a future generation, but I can't remember how he, how he does it.

Can you, any of you recall how, um, how they switch it and make this a future generation?

it's not, it's not a, to me, it's not a different audience. I think he's still speaking to the same audience for working some of this stuff out, guys.

So again, I approach this humbly. Um, I don't think it's out of bounds though, to have the interpretation that he's not shifted audiences.

He's still spate speaking to the same people. Okay. But speaking of that, all this context, if he's speaking of, and I get what you're saying and studying it with speaking of the temple, going all the way back to the previous chapter and following, following that line.

But again, I don't think it's total heretic, heretical to look at it and say, and all these things, there will be this generation when this stuff begins, this will happen in one generation.

And, and some of the, the labor, some part of it is, is, is working through even like what

I was asking a moment ago, you know, are, are some of these things futuristic? Are they all partial predators point of view?

Where, where does it line up? Do we have historical events that we're saying this is it? This is, this is where the legally fulfilled within the timeline of that generation.

I think that's some of the, the burden of proof, if you will, to be able to definitively say, this is when it happened, just like we know it was prophesied, um, you know, that, that Jesus will be born of a virgin or the

Messiah will be born of a virgin. And then we have a historical event that that happened.

You know, I'm, that's in my mind because I'm preaching to the gospel of Luke right now. So, so I think that's some of the burden of proof.

But now with that being said, uh, I've always wondered what the significance of the

Mount of Transfiguration is. And maybe you guys are just tremendous scholars. Okay.

And, and it's just easy for you to get that one, but it's not been for me throughout, throughout my ministry.

I've not avoided preaching that passage, but I'm like, what is the significance of Matthew 17?

Okay. And so, and, and what's pretty neat to make a reference. I think we have a historical event.

My pre -Millennium brothers will probably throw rocks at me because I'm giving you a historical event that is showing the fulfillment of Matthew 16, 28, what

Robert just read a second ago, because now here we have Peter and John, they're on the

Mount and they get a glimpse of Jesus in his glorified body.

And, and their response is let's, let's set up a shrine, you know, because now they're seeing glorified beings and in, in, in the earth, the divinity of Jesus is revealed.

I think up to this point, even though we know Jesus was a hundred percent man, a hundred percent God, he's been the son of man up to the point of the

Mount of Transfiguration, even that in miraculous things, no one had ever seen him with his manhood stripped and his glory revealed.

And so, so that's, what's pretty wild is they, they get a glimpse of that in the, in the, in the

Mount of Transfiguration there in Matthew 17. So this generation would have seen Jesus.

This is the kingdom leader. This is the king of kings and the Lord of lords and the voice of heaven saying, this is my beloved son in whom well pleased.

So that's not just the son of man at baptism. This is my beloved son in the gospel of John and whom

I'm well pleased. Now here's the glorified. This is my son and who

I'm well pleased. And it's the king. And so, so that was an interesting cross reference for me in Matthew 16, 28, coming over to Matthew 17.

But again, for, for our brothers that would say, I don't, again, I don't know that I've not personally heard that interpretation that it's a transference of, of, of group that he's speaking to an audience rather.

It's that it's still in, I've always understood the same audience, but it's a much more general interpretation that once these signs begin to take place, then this generation will not pass away until the son of man comes.

And so, so that's why even in the futuristic point of view, people are still looking at signs.

They're still trying to make an effort to have, Hey, this is what this means. And people are looking at, you know, political alliances and what rush is doing and what's happening in Israel and so on and so forth, that they're trying to line up those things because we want our generation to be the generation that we see the son of son of God coming in the clouds with that, that there is the rest.

We want to be that generation, if you will. so anyways, you know,

I don't think it's totally heretical and I don't even think it's wrong to desire that, you know, to that word that we're, however, it lines up that we're the last generation.

I don't think it's wrong to desire as even John prayed, even so come now,

Lord Jesus, even so come, come now, that's not wrong to desire that.

But again, with consistency of interpretation I do think your interpretation is probably the most consistent, but at the same time there is, there is that other piece of there that I don't think it's a transfer of audience, but I think it's, it's a futuristic point of view that in that generation that this begins to take place, they will not pass away until these things are completed.

Well, I appreciate you bringing up that point because I didn't intend to, to misrepresent cause you, you better stated what

I meant to say. So I appreciate you, you bringing up that point. So he's speaking to the same audience, you know, he's standing in front of his audience speaking to the same people.

Let me, let me ask you guys this translation question. Is punctuation inspired?

Well, the answer is no. Punctuation is not as a part of the original text, but my translation has a comma.

And so that's where I'm seeing it. Truly I say to you, comma.

So his audience is those who are standing in front of him. Truly I say to you that this generation, so that's, that's how you're saying they're interpreting this passage.

He's speaking to his original audience. I say to you, comma, this generation that sees these signs, they won't pass away.

So am I, does that make more sense? It does. And so that, so the question is how to, and I don't know that we can perfectly answer it, but we don't see, because we don't see their responses.

The question that I've always asked is how is his audience that he's speaking to interpreting what he's saying, you know?

And, and I think that's an important piece of it too. Go ahead, Dan. Yeah. I can't see you moving.

So it's weird for you to see me moving. You just kind of like, sorry, getting a little freezing up here.

No, no, that's all right. I, I think because they're having, they're having this conversation.

All right, Dan, you got to start all over, buddy. Cause you froze. Did I? Yeah, I'm sorry.

Go back. You did this number. You raised your finger and then I lost you. All right.

They were, they were having a conversation previous where he's talking about Jerusalem.

The one who kills the prophets and stones, those who are sent to her. And he goes on and says, see, your house has left you desolate.

So I say to you, you shall see me no more till you say, bless is the one who comes in the name of where did

I go back up even further before that? It says, assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

So he's already talking to, he's already used that terminology and he's talking about it.

In, in terms of a, a people who are going to be judged for their sins against the prophets that brought the word of God to them.

Cause he said, therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you're the sons of those who murdered the prophets.

You fill up the measure of your father's guilt, cause them serpents, brood of vipers. Oh my. He's laughing.

Popular words, popular words. The blood of Abel, the blood of Zacharias, who you murdered between the temple and the altar.

And he says, these things will come upon this generation. He's, he's talking about, so he's, he's already been in this same context, talking about a judgment that's going to come on a people for their sin.

And he says, all these things will come upon this generation. So when he continues the conversation, cause he, he, he changes venues.

He then goes from, uh, uh, well, he was walking through the temple and then he changes, uh, goes to the

Mount of Olives and sits down the temple. The, the, uh, disciples started asking him questions about what he had just been talking about.

He goes through all that we'd just gone through in, in chapter 24, then comes to this point and he uses that same language.

He was talking about that generation, those people who were there who were rejecting him. You're not going to see me anymore until, um, this generation, the generation he's talking to is going to receive that punishment.

And he says, again, uh, surely I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away until all these things take place.

There's a consistency there where he's talking to a singular audience where I don't think you can change the, the, the meaning of the phrase this generation to mean the one who sees the signs happen or sees the judgment come, but it's the ones to whom he's given the warning who will see those things, uh, taking place.

So, so chapter 23 helps us to understand who, who the generation is. Sure. It's part of the context.

Yeah. I said that the long way, but it's good to look at chapter 23.

Um, because it, he's using the same terminology. Um, he's woe to you.

Woe to you. So he, he's speaking to those people at that time, that generation, and then it carries over to chapter 24.

Well, he's talking about persecution, but then he also talks about all the righteous blood shit on the earth.

So there's like a, a judgment for even all past old Testament. And so one of the, it's, it's a, it's a broader stretch, you know, but I think it really falls into context of Jesus.

Even, even in this, we can't miss the, the symbolism and, and the metaphor of his own, uh, crucifixion and resurrection, you know, and, and, you know, he had already told the

Pharisees, tear down this temple and I'll build it back in three days. And so we can't, we can't just dismiss.

Jesus is telling his own story. Jesus is telling his own like, and it's going to, and, and in this timeframe, judgment is going to rain down upon them.

Well, where did judgment really get poured out? Is it not the crucifixion? You know, that's where that was, where judgment and wrath was poured out, was in the cross.

And so, so that's all I'm saying too, is that I do believe there's definitely things that are fulfilled in this generation that they experienced by all means.

And we benefit from what has already happened, you know, greatly. Um, I still just have questions going back to that specific interpretation though, of, of, and all of these things are fulfilled.

Then, then I still would like to see the historical evidence of that, you know, of, of the expectation of what they were having.

Because, because, you know, they ask him two questions of, of when, when will these things take place?

And then when will we see the, the coming of the son of, or when we see the sign, tell us when these things will happen and when we'll see the sign of your coming at the end of the age.

And so, so the end of age, you know, we're in agreement that there is a transformation, a transition from an old

Testament age to new Testament age and, and those kinds of things. um, but I think they're also looking for his coming because he had already told him, uh, it's good that I leave you, but then

I'm going to come again for you. So, so there's also a, a broader question that I think they're asking him, not just in the context of these two chapters, but I think we're getting toward the end of where Jesus is marching toward Calvary.

And I think even the disciples, all the gospels, we see them beginning to ask more and more questions, especially toward the end.

It's not just Jesus teaching only, but they're asking more and more questions. And so, um, so anyways,

I'm just saying in a broader context, I think there's some very specific things that they got on their mind and it's not just tied to the previous chapter, but it's tied to the previous 20, the previous 23 chapters from chapter one up to that point.

And then we honestly don't know how much time transpired between these woe passages to the scribes to where they actually were.

We're meeting here. That's the other thing that I think a lot of times we miss an interpretation is, is when

Jesus said the woes and then Jesus laments over Jerusalem, that's two very succinct different places in time.

Um, and then we get to Matthew 24. And so we don't know if it was a day or a week or a month in between chapters that would have happened.

And we don't know all the gaps that happened in there. So, so that's okay that we don't know some of this stuff.

We don't have to know that God didn't intend for us to know all of those things, or he had told us or wrote it down. you know, so I think what we have is very sufficient, but that's the only reason

I'm bringing all that up is I think it's very healthy to, to have a conclusive point of view on any of these texts, you know,

I mean to say, Hey, this is, and that's why I say that the interpretation is consistent with what you're saying.

So I'm not rebutting that. I'm also saying though, that some of the guys that have a futuristic point of view of this, you know, they're not all just extremely on left field, you know, either that, that there's, there's reasons that they have some of those convictions.

But the good news is there is a coming of the son of man that we look forward to, you know, there's a unity in that.

So but anyways, that's, that's all I'm trying to say is there's some pretty neat threads and cross references that when you start branching out through that, that it's pretty fun to chase some of those rabbits, honestly, you know, and, and, and, and I am,

I am making a genuine attempt to chase them with honesty, just like when I first started to study of reform theology,

I often use this jacket or a jacket that I have on. I, you know, I took off my jacket with all my badges and all my systems and everything.

And I took it off and I go hang it on the hook. And then, then we get to the text and try to do the text.

And then I put my jacket back on and I'm having to rip off this badge and so a new and all this kind of stuff.

So I'm okay with doing that. You know, I value that's why we're here tonight to, to, to discuss this.

So, but so I don't think it's inconsistent, Robert, and what you guys are saying at all,

I think is extremely consistent with the text. I just think also there's, there's still some gaps in that, that we all have to be real honest about the potential of gaps there so that, so that we continue to humbly approach the text without arrogance and, and, and to be able to humbly say, this is what

I think. And, and this is consistent. But it's not, this to me is not one of those passages that the heart,

I guess is what I'm trying to say. The hard part with this text. And it's the very first time Robert and I had this conversation.

I think if you remove this text, then you don't have a preterist point of view. That's, that's, that's, that's one of the, the strong issues that I have with a partial preterist conviction or post millennialism conviction is it hinges so much on this, on this, like one passage of this generation will not pass away.

It hinges so much on that because that's, that's supposedly the kryptonite to the pre millennial view.

And, and all I'm saying is, I'm not sure it is, is all I'm saying.

So that is, I mean, it's, it's not a shot at you brothers. I mean, because again, again, I'm, I'm learning, you know, is all

I'm saying. So that's the two things that I have, you know, just, just to, just to try to bring some context to, to, to a different point of view is, is again, historical proof of tangible historical proof that is undeniable historical proof, not interpretational historical, but is undeniable historical truth.

And then, and then second of all, it's just a lot to hinge on one passage of scripture where we try not to do that.

It's, it's continuing to, to build and you give tons of cross references, so it's not just one passage.

Please don't take it as, as a, as a disrespectful statement in that place. But, um, uh,

Jonathan, would you care to, uh, and I know you're probably very busy, but for me,

I mean, I'm just taking in all what you're saying. Would you care to, uh, maybe at some point in the next week or two, um, jot down every single question there that like you talked about, so I can look at them individually and ponder them seriously.

Would you care to do that, Jonathan? I don't mind at all. Yeah. That'll help me. Cause I, um,

I'm running on, on a low fumes right now, mentally. So, uh, we probably all are, and that will be, that will be a good list to post in our chat group so that we can all look at it.

Uh, I would love to be able to do that. Um, and you're right about Matthew 24, 34, and, and it's a, it's an important verse to, to me and helping me understand, um, the, the partial preterist position.

Um, but just one initial, as you're talking about it, one initial response to that.

Um, to, to say that it's not the only one.

So my answer to that would be, if you go to the verse right before that, the language that Jesus uses there, he says, uh, when you see these, when you see the tree, you know, ripening, bearing leaves and, and, and blooming, uh, you, you know that he is near right at the door.

That language is used quite often, um, in this context and in other books of the

Bible. Um, if you look at the beginning of revelation, um, at least two or three things, because I don't, like I said, with me joining late, forgive me on it.

And I just grabbed my Bible that I had laying over here. And I think it's a, yeah, this is a new King James version.

So can, can we get clarification on, um, cause mine just has a side note in verse 33.

Yeah. Also, when you see all these things, no, that is it a pronoun in the

Greek of he is near or it is near. The new

King James uses the word. It is near. Yeah. The ESV uses.

He uses he, okay. I didn't have my ESV Bible, so I just, I went, my footnote says, or, or it.

So see, to me too, that's, that's a pretty big interpretation because, because we're talking about an event that it would be an event or the, he would be in a person.

So I know that we're talking about sort of the one, the same, because we're talking about the coming of Jesus.

Okay. I mean, the, this, this him coming, but the, the, he is here.

I can, I can, I can shift that with the kingdom of God and acts two and the day of Pentecost and multiple things that happens in this generation with he, um, versus it.

That's the reason I was asking about the trends, the, the, the, the parallels with first Thessalonians four and some of those other places, you know, of, you know, because it, to me, if something that significant happens of the first Thessalonians four or in revelation, and that Trump sounds something significant like that happens, that it happens, there's going to be historical records of it that are like, if the dead in Christ rise and those that are yet alive or caught up in the air with him, if that, when that event happens, the resurrection happens like there's going to be significant historical evidence of that.

Does that make sense? And so, so again, obviously that's not happened, right? Correct.

Correct. That's all I'm saying. That's not happened. And so, so to me that, that again, that's where, when we get into futuristic versus partial preterist,

I think some of those things are just very, very important to dial in because the futuristic guys are looking for it.

They're looking for that historical, recognizable, undeniable event that will happen in that generation.

Whereas from the, um, the first, the very, I remember this the very first night that we started talking about things, versus allegory versus actual event, you know, like, like I asked a question about the, the lamb supper and, you know, when somebody said they believed it already happened, that the lamb supper has already happened.

And, and those kinds of things of like revelation, um, I guess that 19,

I guess it is wherever it's at there. But anyways, um, that's what

I'm trying to say is there's some things that are metaphorical and allegorical, and then there's other tangible events that are historical.

And so I think that's also a divide in our translate, in our translating of these scriptures in groups.

I'm just trying to point that out is all I'm saying. Sorry. I mean, I'm talking, making my thoughts happen.

That's good. That's good. But if we, if we, if we do go back because we should go back to the languages, right?

The Greek for the new Testament. So the actual Greek, regardless of what, how the new

King James translators translated, or the ESB translators translated it, the

Greek word there is, I mean, so, right.

And again, what did Jesus say before Abraham was,

I am a go. I mean, right. So yeah, go ahead. Yeah.

It's, uh, it's, it's Amy, but it's, uh, in the third person, uh, singular.

So it's, it's S and, um, in text. And when it's in the third person singular, it can mean he, she, or it.

So it leaves it ambiguous in the text, which is why you'll have some translations, which will say he, because they believe it's referring to he.

And some, which will say it because they believe it's referring to it. So it's really still personal.

It's a personal, right? It's a personal pro down, not as not an impersonal, but it's not necessarily an event would be an impersonal thing.

And it would be impersonal, but if it's a, he or she, then it would be personal.

So it really depends on what you think that verb is pointing back to. Like, what is the thing doing the, uh, the, what does it refer to?

You know, what is the, the, it, what does it refer to? What does he refer to? If it's referring back to, to, uh,

Christ, then it would be, uh, his coming or he, he comes or where, where is it?

Uh, that he is near, but if you see it referring back to those events taking place, it would be it.

So really it's an, it's a translational, uh, and interpretational type thing.

Well, correct me if I'm wrong from the partial predators position that those two things are interchangeable because when, when we say

Jesus is coming. And I, and the reason I was just making that reference is it goes back because we're talking about the tree.

Okay. Going all the way back to the fig tree and the disciples question was, tell us when these things will be and what will be the sign of your coming.

And so the fig tree is, he's speaking of signs. Now these, these things that we see happening are, are evidences that this event or this person, he or it will, will be taking place.

However you want to translate that too. So, so it goes all the way back to the original question. Cause I feel like what they're doing,

Jesus is wrapping up their conversation here. And he's saying, I've told you all these things. And now here's the signs that you're looking for.

You asked me for a sign. It's just like the fig tree. You can read the fig trees, you know, and then later he's talking about the skies, you know, and you read skies at night and skies in morning, but you can't see this, the signs of the coming of the son of man, you know?

Right. So anyway, I think that's also, go ahead.

I'm sorry. What? Can you guys hear me?

I can hear you. Okay. I can hear you. Make this more clear that I'm about to make it, but from the partial printer's position, they're interchangeable.

So the, the signs are the coming of the son of man. So we, we would say that the, the coming of the son of man is coming in judgment.

And so the, the signs are the coming. Does that make sense?

Yes, but I think that the coming here is going to be referring back to a verse 30.

You said the sign of the son of man here in heaven. So it's a sign that takes place in heaven, orient us in heaven.

So the coming of the son of man is a coming from the earth to heaven on the throne.

So, so that would be the coming that we're looking forward to, you know, when you see these things happening, these other signs, when you see the fig tree ripening, you know, that it is near the, the coming of the son of man to his throne in heaven and the gathering of the elect.

So you would agree with, you would say that it is the better translation. Not necessarily, but I just think that it's important to remember that the coming is not him coming back.

Right. But it's the coming of him to his, his throne. So either way you put it, if you say he is coming to put the emphasis on Christ and then understanding that he's doing all those things, when he comes to his throne, then that's great.

But if you also think of it as all the things that he's doing and say it, as long as you have all of the pieces together,

I think that's really what the passage is trying to get at that, that at the time that Christ takes his throne in heaven, all these other things are taking place.

And here's how, you know, when that's going to be, um, there's no, yet being the judgment of God and the perks, the person of the judgment of God is

Christ inextricably tied together. Yeah. Right. And so one of the first signs of the judgment was coming upon the nation of Israel was that sign of, of Jonah that he laid in the ground for three days and he rose again.

He then ascended into heaven, uh, to take his rightful spot on the throne, um, in heaven.

That is part of the beginning of the birth pangs. And people say, you know, if somebody says to you at that point,

Hey, look, there he is, or he's over here. Don't believe him. He's not there.

He's on his throne. No, he hasn't returned. He's going to his throne.

Does that make sense? Oh yeah. And I appreciate you bringing that point out because I mean, that was wonderful to tackle and look at.

Um, and I did, I did want to answer, um, one question that Jonathan brought up about how verse 34, um, is really the hinge on, um, what partial preterism swings on.

Um, and if you don't have it, the door may fall down. Um, my argument against that would be, and that's what

I was trying to point out in verse 33, is that the language that Jesus uses there is the, the near terminology.

Um, he is, he, or it is near right at the door. Um, just another example, revelation chapter one, the revelation of Jesus Christ, which

God gave him to show to his bond servants shortly take place.

And he sent a sent and communicated it by his angel to his bond servant,

John, who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw blessed as he, who reads these, uh, those, those who hear the words of the prophecy and he, the things which are written for the time is near.

And, um, the other apostles, um, and authors of these books use similar language.

The near demonstrative, dear, near demonstrative type language. Um, so I think if we lose verse 34, we still have the, the idea that the author was writing to these, these churches, these people and saying it's near, it's near, it's shortly to come.

That would be my answer to that question or, or objection. Any, any other thoughts on that?

No, I think that's fine. And I think that the thing that makes that so painful and hard, if that is true for pre -millennial, then they, we, we, as I was raised pre -millennial or those kinds of things, we have inserted ourselves so much in the text that to take that away, it's no longer near, you know,

I shared with you guys that, that as I was really, really trying to put myself in a post meal, that's supposed to be a message of hope.

And I found it as a message of despair, at least in its original deal. And I really was trying to wonder why.

And I was just saying, if that means that I can't preach that the, that the, the, the nearness of Christ, I can't preach that it's near that there's no longer any signs pointing to his nearness of this coming to the earth or this coming in this kingdom as, as in that translation, does that make sense?

And so, so that's, that feels like a lot of loss to, you know, it feels like a lot of shift in, in culture all the way around.

And so, so don't get me wrong. I'm, I'm moving in that, you know, and there are messages of hope in the post millennial view.

So please, please, there's things that I've already adapted into my own convictions and theologies of that, that really the dominion in the earth now, you know, and not, not just a futuristic hope, but there is a hope and dominion now for he is

King of Kings and he is Lord of Lords. And so don't get me wrong, please don't take it as like doom and gloom. This is, if anything, it's more, it made me more of a theological mutt than a purist,

I guess you could say. I would say though, you, you hit the nail on the head when you said the, the challenge or, or the, the idea might be that we placed ourselves too much into the text.

I don't want to, you know, I don't want to change, change your phraseology, but that's, that's the challenge.

And that's where the despair always comes. When we place ourselves in the text or in the place of what has already been accomplished.

And, but the beautiful thing is though, Jonathan, Dan, Robert, is that we, we, we actually have more certainty from, according to the scriptures, because Christ repeatedly in Luke, we're in Luke two at, at the church at Reformata too,

Jonathan. So I'm right there with you, but Luke repeatedly brings to light the fact that Jesus says the kingdom of God has come.

Concerning him in his coming there. And the kingdom of God has come near you.

It's both, it's both an encouragement and a rebuke, really the, to those who, to whom

Christ calls, to those who are expectantly looking for him, particularly in the context of the gospels.

It is a great encouragement, but to those who like the scribes and the Pharisees who refused and denied him

Christ's word that he says, be sure the son of God has come near you is a word of rebuke.

So we as Christians now have the great privilege in, in the greatest of certainty, simply because we have it pinned down in the scriptures themselves, verified by the

Holy spirit, affirmed to us by the Holy spirit in our lives. We have that great certainty that we can say,

Jesus Christ has come. Jesus Christ has bore the wrath of God on our behalf.

Jesus Christ has suffered and shed his blood for my sin, regardless whether anybody else realizes it or not.

I can say, I know Christ died for me. Now, a lot of people have certainty about a lot of things.

They'll say, I know this and I know that, but friends, I can tell you the only thing that I am 100 % certain about in life and in death is that Christ died for me and that he, he, he was buried in that.

He arose again in that one day, this text here, that one day he is coming.

And when he comes, whether I'm dead and gone or not, hallelujah, anyhow, because if I'm dead,

I'm going to outrun the, I'm going to outrun the living saints getting to him. And if he comes before I die, hallelujah,

I'm going to rejoice with the saints that have gone on before me. So either way, right?

It's, I know it's a country ism, but I'm a winner either way. If I go or if I stay so that according to the scriptures is what gives the

Christian great certainty in great hope, in great confidence.

It's not whether these things are going to happen or these things are going to take place later.

You know, when this is going on, we have the certainty that Christ came, Christ died. And we have the certainty that we have been called to herald the message that Jesus saves,

Jesus saves. And that Christ will effectuate, actuate, whatever the right word is there, that he will accomplish all his will.

And there is none of his elect that will ever be lost.

He will, he will not wrap this thing up. He will not close it up according to his word until all of the redeemed of God, the elect of God are come to him.

So that is the great certainty that, that we have according to the scriptures.

Amen. Yeah. And I wanted to insert,

I wanted to continue to talk about the nearness, but I apologize for that.

No, no, I don't. No, I don't. Wait a second. If y 'all could reach me, you should smack me in the back of the head, right then.

I'll follow the certainty of God's sovereignty from the beginning to the end. Amen. Dirty varmint ain't been on here, has he?

Or she, whoever they are. I've not seen that person. We, we had dirty varmint join us last, last

Monday. That was a good time. But, well,

I guess I'll just interject this and we'll close on verse 34. We're, we've been together for a while, but, but we talk about the nearness and Jesus, Jesus, John, the, the other authors are telling them to, to look, it's near, it's right around the corner.

And, but we have to ask ourselves what, what's right around the corner from the pre meal or post meal.

Not only is it, is it his coming and the pre meal would see that as, you know, the rapture is the first event, but the tribulation is, is part of that.

This bad stuff that's going to happen. That's, that's what's right around the corner. That that's what's near. And, um, from the, the partial predisposition, that, that bad stuff has already happened.

And we're, we're on the other side of it. We're on the victorious side of it, you know, fleshing out that victory, uh, bringing his, uh, being messengers, bringing the gospel, uh, uh, a part of God drawing all nations to himself.

Um, but from the, the other perspective, which, which would

I, I would see as the, the more difficult perspective. Yeah. If you're looking for what's near right around the corner, the, the rapture, the, the escape, you still have the tribulation to come.

And, um, that's, that's bad news. Um, but so, so I find the hope.

And I, and I agree, man, that's, that's where it's the, the psalmist writes, you know, the, the day of the coming of the

Lord, what a horrible day that it will be a horrific day. So the judgment will still come.

I think that's, I think that's one of the misunderstandings, you know, is it can sound like partial predators don't believe in a judgment to come, but there is a judgment to come.

That will be a horrifying, horrific day. I mean, for some, and then those that are the elect of God, um, that's the hope that I find even in this text.

And that's what I wanted to leave off with. If it's all right, I'll just, I'll say my last two cents right here, not to take away from anything that you said, because I agree, but I love,

I love the certainty in the assurance that we have that heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will by no means pass away.

So there, there is that covenant theology here, even though I still,

I'm still grappling through that dance. So you got to help me out on some of this brother, you know, but there, there is still covenantal things that by God's promise, his word, it is a written word, but it's, it's really deeper than to me.

And please don't take it heretical. It may be a separate way to say it. It's deeper than just what we have on these 66 books and recorded pages.

It is in the mind and heart of the word of God, the spoken word of God, because we know we don't even have, we don't have every spoken word.

The gospel of John tells us that we don't have a spoken word of Jesus. Not all the books of the world would contain it.

As he said, the works of Jesus, but we have enough, but I'm saying even the undocumented words of Jesus will not pass away.

I mean, there is the promises of eternity, um, that we can have great assurance in and great confidence in.

And so therefore every promise that I do have from Christ for his elect will not pass away.

Not only these to the, the speaking to this generation. And I think that's where in a healthy way, we can assert ourselves into the story is it's in the, the promise that, that there's going to be a lot of things happening in the earth, passing away, but his word will not, that will not change.

And I think he's the same yesterday, today and forever. And that's the good news for us to me that, that, that brings it full circle for me, no matter where I land in, in all these things, the promises aren't bound to, to, to an eschatological position.

And I'm thankful for that. You know, I'm thankful that the promises are the same for all those who find their rest and conviction and joy in Jesus Christ.

And those are the promises that, that we have that, that won't change. So thank, I think

Claude's already preached enough on that. And that's, that's the hope having that. And I'm thankful for that good news guys.

So I love you brothers. Thank you for entertaining my questions tonight. And I'll try to do that for you, Claude.

I'll try to get you a list together. Maybe we can post it in the, in the group, take clarity. Thank you.

And my, my closing thing is think about this, that, that is certainly a great hope, but heaven and earth will pass away.

Consider that the, the temple there was considered where heaven meets earth.

Sure. So that is a, is likely a physical, a physical example or illustration or an illustration of the temple passing away.

I love you, man. I appreciate y 'all, man. Yeah. I barely know you and still, but I hope to get to know you.

It's better. We, we hope so too. Dan, any last words before I wrap it up?

Nope. Okay. God, God, God, preaching the gospel and going on.

I mean, once you say that, what else is there to say? You're exactly right.

And, and, and I, I kick it myself for, for continuing because I mean,

Paul sharing the gospel is the highlight is the pinnacle is the beak. Jesus is the, the, the peak.

And, and that's where, you know, that's where we want to end up every time is sharing the gospel and exalting

Christ. One last verse that I wanted to share that that might be related to the, the looking for the rapture, you know, around the corner and it may or may not be related.

You guys can get back to me on it, but the, the verse where Jesus says, um, it might be

John 17. And when he's praying to the father, uh, he prays that, uh, that they won't be taken out of the world, but that he will be with them through, through, um, and I'm, I'm misquoting it, but it is something to that effect that he, he prays that he won't take them out, but be with them, you know, through these things.

So yes, what, what Jonathan was saying was exactly right. We believe that there will be a final and in judgment.

And the answer to that is exactly what, um, brother called was sharing with us that Jesus is it.

Jesus is the answer. And we want those who, who watch this, that's our whole point of doing this is to work our way back to Jesus, hearing the gospel and, um, coming to know him as savior and living for him in obedience.

Do you have something you want to say, Claude? No, sir. Okay. So if, if you've not responded to Christ, we, we would plead with you, with you, that you would turn to him, repent of your sins and turn to him in faith, believe in him, believe the gospel.

Um, that, that would be our greatest joy. Um, if you have any questions, feel free to shoot us a, um, uh, a message.

We'd love to try to answer your questions. Again, if we could pray for you, let us know if we can do that. Um, brother

Jonathan, would you close this in prayer? Absolutely father. I love my brother so much and I'm so thankful that we can grapple with your word.

And I thank you for the wisdom that each man carries, uh, where your Holy spirit has, has, and is teaching us.

I pray father that you will, um, continue to draw us deeper in.

And we thank you for how you are doing that. Thank you father for the promises that you have made and that you never break.

And I thank you for the promise that we cling to, that all that believe on you shall have everlasting life.

And I'm thankful for that Lord. And I pray that during this season, it will not take for granted the message of the angels, where it is a message of peace and goodwill toward men that Christ, the savior is born.

And I pray that we truly rejoice, not in just a Christmas season, but in every day of our lives, the truth that we have a savior.

Uh, thank you for this podcast and this broadcast. And what I pray that you'll continue to spread it throughout the world, that people can hear a message of hope and the truth of the gospel.

It's in Jesus name we pray. Amen. Thank you brothers. And thank you guys for watching. Hope you guys have a good.