May 29, 2020 Show with Samuel Frost & Don K. Preston Debating “Full Preterism”; Day 2: “The Physical Resurrection of the Dead is Still In Our Future” (Frost Affirms/Preston Denies)

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June 1, 2020

May 29, 2020 Chris Arnzen moderates a 2-DAY DEBATE on “FULL PRETERISM”!! Featuring FORMER FULL PRETERIST Samuel Frost vs. FULL PRETERIST Don K. Preston Day 2 Topic: “The Physical Resurrection of the Dead is Still In Our Future” (Frost AFFIRMS/Preston DENIES)

00:01: Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister
00:08: George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.
00:21: This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
00:31: Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
00:38: Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation, to make one another wiser and better.
00:50: It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions, and now here's your host,
01:00: Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,
01:09: Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth.
01:15: We're listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is
01:20: Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday. On this 29th day of May, 2020, and today is day number two of the two -day debate on full preterism, and our debaters are
01:37: Don K. Preston and Samuel M. Frost. Don K. Preston is the full preterist in our debate, and Samuel M.
01:47: Frost is a former full preterist in this debate. The theme today is the physical resurrection of the dead is still in our future, and Sam Frost affirms that thesis, and Don Preston denies it.
02:03: And we're going to just start right off, since we've already introduced our guests formally and at greater length yesterday.
02:11: Anybody who needs to know more about them can listen to the first day of the debate, and you'll hear an introduction of them in detail.
02:18: But right now, we'd just like to have Samuel M. Frost, since he is affirming the physical resurrection of the dead is still in our future, he opens up the program, he opens up the debate with a ten -minute opening statement.
02:34: Sam? Thank you, Chris and Don, for allowing this time.
02:43: Let me start here. The resurrection of the dead is something that Christians believe will occur in the future.
02:54: They have always asserted this, and along with Judaism, firmly maintain this doctrine against all ridicule and attack.
03:02: Christians, from the time of the apostles' creed to the Westminster Confession to the
03:08: Roman Catholic Catechism of 1994, have all affirmed in unity a bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust.
03:15: To quote Paul, "...having a hope in God, which these men themselves accept, that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust,"
03:25: Acts 24 -15. It is noted here that Paul explicitly says, "...which
03:31: these men accept," where the word accept means hold to, or wait for, or expect.
03:38: These men are the Jews, mentioned in verse 9. And we know that the Jews believed a bodily resurrection of the dead, one of the prime examples of it being found in 1
03:51: Maccabees 7, a Jewish writing in the 2nd century B .C., where bodily resurrection is defined with the utmost explicit terms possible.
04:00: And with this, Paul stated just before, "...I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the law and written in the prophets, having a hope which these men themselves accept, that there will be a resurrection of the just and the unjust."
04:14: Let this be known, then, that the Apostle here affirms that the resurrection of the just and the unjust is taught in the law and the prophets.
04:23: Indeed, in the earliest form of what became the universal expression of the fundamentals of the Christian faith, the
04:29: Apostle's Creed, we find the wording to be this, "...from heaven he will come to judge the living and the dead," words taken straight from the
04:37: Scriptures. This is what Christians believe and what defines Christianity on this matter. A denial of such a cardinal point of faith is deemed rightly so heretical, a veering off course, a swerve far off the reservation of acceptable theological speculation and theory.
04:56: Rufinus' commentary on the Apostle's Creed, written in 390 AD, on this clause, "...he
05:02: shall judge the living and the dead," is appropriate to mention here, for on this clause he wrote, "...we
05:07: think it necessary to remind you that this doctrine of the faith would have us daily solicitous concerning the coming judge, that we may so frame our conduct as having to give an account to the judge who is at hand."
05:24: It is this last phrase, "...at hand," wherein we find Rufinus using it not in terms of something to come in the future at any second in terms of time, but something that is in reality a state of being in terms of the stage of development for what is most certainly next in the divine program, resurrection.
05:44: Rufinus was not using such a term to express that he believed the resurrection could occur at any moment, but that it was something viewed as assured in light of the resurrection of the man,
05:56: Christ Jesus, who has brought to light the reality of resurrection in terms of his own. "...the
06:01: resurrection of the first man has occurred, therefore the judge is now ready to judge the living and the dead.
06:08: Jesus is near, standing at the door, calling all who will come to the banquet, just before he swallows up death forever, for all the nations upon whom the cover of death is over, according to Isaiah 25 .6."
06:21: What is tied to this is that Rufinus depicts the resurrection and ascension of the Son of Man, Jesus of Nazareth, as necessitating the resurrection of our bodies precisely because his body was raised and ascended and now sits at the right hand of God in heaven.
06:38: And this Don Preston denies. Preston is on record as stating that Jesus did not ascend bodily, but rather shed his body.
06:46: For the Christian faith, nothing could be more devastating. Yet as we shall hear from Mr.
06:52: Preston himself, Jesus of Nazareth is not at the right hand of God in heaven, body, soul, and spirit.
06:59: And he does this because he entirely discredits the defined hope of the Christian faith, a bodily resurrection of our mortal bodies.
07:08: Paul is most explicit on this point, that it boggles the mind that such would even be debated.
07:14: Because of sin, Paul wrote, the body consigned to death, yet the spirit within is alive because of righteousness.
07:21: Now if the spirit that raised Jesus from the dead dwells in your body, which is destined for death, the one who raised
07:28: Jesus from the dead will also raise that very body of yours that dies through the spirit,
07:34: Romans 8, 11. It is this mortal body here that is to be raised.
07:40: In yet another place with the utmost explicit terms, Paul wrote, from whence we await a
07:45: Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly bodies to be like the glorious body he now has, according to the power he has to bring all things in subjection to himself,
07:59: Philippians 3, 21. Thus, in bringing all things under his power, the transformation of the body, whether living at the time or dead, will be a demonstrating of the power of God in nullifying the power of death over our bodies.
08:13: Paul's explicit teaching here, unified in the testimony of the sheer overwhelming volume of Christian testimony and exegesis for 1 ,900 years, is something he found taught in the
08:25: Law and the Prophets, and we would understand that he got this from them because he quotes them.
08:31: Paul quotes Isaiah 25a, which itself is linked to 2619, which explicitly states,
08:38: Your dead shall live, together with my dead body they shall arise. And what is more interesting is that the
08:46: Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, states, The dead shall be resurrected, the ones in their tombs shall rise, which again demonstrates the interpretation of those
08:59: Jews who interpreted the Hebrew scriptures into Greek and what was meant in the text. Jesus states the same thing,
09:06: Quote, All those in their tombs shall hear his voice and come forth, John 5, 28, in a remarkable parallel.
09:15: There is no doubt among scholars concerning what was believed when it came to this doctrine, because it was alone unique and still is among the religions of the world.
09:25: Preston's view, which you will hear him expound, is called the corporate body view. Preston understands fully that a resurrection of bodies in their tombs, catacombs, and graves did not happen in 70
09:35: AD, for if such a thing did, it surely would not have been missed. Thus, because present is so tied to his belief that the resurrection was fulfilled in 70
09:45: AD, then all other aspects and considerations are thrown to the wind when it comes to this doctrine.
09:51: Church history is thrown aside, and all of its unity on the matter. The exegesis of scholars is thrown aside.
09:58: Preston maligns them as, quote, confused, inconsistent, presuppositional, and biased.
10:04: That is, they assume that body means body, and tomb means tomb. Preston does not heed the wisdom that if one interpretation of a particular thing leads to an obliteration of other interpretations on the matter that are held in unity, then something is probably off -balanced.
10:21: Instead, Preston's view ignores this advice and plows right through several doctrines, overturning each one of them, all for the sake of his understanding of the issue of timing and the time text, of which he cannot produce a single text in all of the
10:36: Bible that says the resurrection is near. We have seen already where the devil was reinvented to mean
10:43: Old Covenant Judaism, where the thousand years has ended in 70 AD, that heaven and earth in the
10:49: Bible do not mean heaven and earth as normally understood. Today, we will hear more.
10:55: Death is not what you think it is. Body is not what you think it is. Rising from the dust of the earth is not what you think it is.
11:02: In fact, the idea of the incarnate Lord, Jesus of Nazareth, at the right hand of the Father, is not at all what you understand it to be.
11:10: All of this will be redefined and thrown into another light because the time text, as Preston understands them and interprets them, trumps any and all other considerations for any other doctrine.
11:22: I know this all too well because I used to run with Preston, speak with him at conferences, and have long conversations over the phone.
11:30: When I began to see a growing list of other doctrines being thrown away all for the sake of an interpretation of time text, it began to dawn on me that something is amiss, off -balanced, askew, and perhaps it would be wise to check my own limitations and fallibilities.
11:47: I did, and I thank God I did. The contention before us is whether or not the resurrection of the dead has happened already.
11:54: Preston affirms that it has, and, in order to do so, must totally reinvent the understanding of the
12:00: Jews in Paul's day and Paul himself. We speak of audience relevance and mean by that what the everyday
12:06: Jew and Gentile would have heard when he listened to phrases like heaven and earth, he shall descend from heaven, the dead shall live and come forth from their tombs.
12:13: These phrases carry with them commonly understood expressions that are used today as they were used then.
12:20: Tombs are the same, dead is the same, and heaven and earth have not changed from then to now. I appeal that if one must, and in Preston's case he must, build a framework by which one can then redefine common sense terms understood in all cultures and at all times, then surely it is entirely rational to suggest that you are most likely being played.
12:39: I am appealing to Arkham's Razor and the common unity of history and faith. And with that,
12:44: I close. That's still fine.
13:41: It would be the fulfillment of Isaiah 25, Sam agrees, and it would be in fulfillment of Hosea 13 and 14.
13:49: Prior to this debate, I asked Sam Frost, is the resurrection that Paul anticipated in 1
13:54: Corinthians 15 the same resurrection foretold in Hosea 13 and 14? He answered very simply, yes.
14:02: Let's examine Hosea very, very quickly. The story of Hosea can be broken down very easily and quickly into some major headings.
14:11: Yahweh was married to Israel. However, as a result of her spiritual adultery,
14:18: God divorced her. When he divorced her, he departed from her, and she died.
14:24: However, the Lord made a promise to Israel. He promised to return to her,
14:31: Hosea 5, verse 15 and following. He promised to remarry her, Hosea 2, 19 and following.
14:37: And he promised to raise her from the dead, Hosea chapter 6. After three days, he will raise us up again.
14:46: We will live in his presence, the very foundation for Paul's doctoral thesis, if you please, and his doctrinal thesis of 1
14:54: Corinthians chapter 15. And Paul develops this inclusio in 1
15:01: Corinthians 15. So we have Hosea talking about the divorcement of Israel, the departure of Yahweh, the death of Israel.
15:13: We have Yahweh promising to return and to remarry Israel and to raise her from the dead.
15:20: Now, the great question, of course, is since the resurrection of 1 Corinthians 15 is the resurrection foretold in Hosea chapter 13, we have every right to ask the question, what is the nature and identity of the death in Hosea?
15:37: Well, Hosea chapter 13, 1 and 2 is very explicit and very emphatic.
15:44: When Ephraim spoke trembling, he exalted himself in Israel. But when he offended in Baal, he died.
15:52: And yet he sinned more and more. Now, I think even Sam Frost would agree with me that it's impossible for physically dead people to keep on sinning.
16:02: Yet here are people who when they sinned, they died, but they kept on sinning.
16:10: It is that death, which was not the biological death of individuals, but the corporate death of the nation, that is the focus of the resurrection of Hosea chapter 13 and verse 14,
16:24: Sam Frost agrees it's the same resurrection. Well, if it's the same resurrection, it's the same death.
16:30: And since the death is not, cannot be in the context, the biological death of individual human beings, then that means that the resurrection is not of biologically dead human beings in Hosea 13 and 14, demanding that the resurrection of 1
16:47: Corinthians 15 is not about the biological raising of human beings out of the dust of the ground.
16:54: Now, this would happen when God remarried Israel. When would God remarry
17:00: Israel? Well, the remarriage of Israel, according to Matthew chapter 22, 1 through 12, and by the way,
17:06: I find it extremely disappointing, it's extremely revealing that all Sam Frost can do is scoff at time statements.
17:15: He says, that's basically all I have. No, I have a framework here of the departure, the divorce, and the death of Israel, and the promise of the return, the remarriage, and the resurrection of Israel, specifically and emphatically identifying the kind of death, the kind of grave, if you please, that Israel was in, and it's a corporate death and a corporate resurrection.
17:45: Now, he mentioned Isaiah chapter 25. I could not be more happy than he referred us to Isaiah.
17:53: Well, let's take a look at Isaiah and this concept of the raising out of the dust.
17:59: Sam somewhat sarcastically said, we all know what dust means. Well, if we think we know what dust is, and if we close our mind to the nature of Hebraic poetry and Hebraic metaphor, then we're going to miss the beauty and the power of the
18:17: Hebraic language. In Isaiah chapter 24, we have a prediction of the destruction of, quote, heaven and earth.
18:26: In Isaiah chapter 24, verse 4 and following, the earth mourns and fades away, the world languishes and fades away, the haughty people of the earth languish.
18:34: The earth is defiled under its inhabitants because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, they have broken the everlasting covenant.
18:44: Here is the destruction of heaven and earth. The earth would fall and never rise again, and it would be in that day that the
18:52: Lord would punish on high the hosts of exalted ones on the earth, the kings of the earth. They will be gathered together as prisoners are gathered in the pit and will be shut up in the prison.
19:01: Then the moon will be disgraced and the sun ashamed, for the Lord of hosts will reign gloriously on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem.
19:13: Then in chapter 25, we find a reference to in that day.
19:19: We have an inclusio in that day on this mountain. On this mountain, the
19:26: Lord will destroy death. Now, let's make sure that we understand something. This death that was to be destroyed predated
19:33: Israel, to be sure. It's the death of the garden. In the day, you will surely die. But that death reigned from Adam to Moses.
19:42: But the law of Moses exacerbated and compounded the horrible nature of that death.
19:50: It is that death that the Lord says he will swallow up death forever.
19:55: So here is Isaiah 25 and 8 predicting the resurrection foretold by Paul in 1
20:03: Corinthians chapter 15. But wait a minute. In Isaiah chapter 25 and verse 12, the
20:09: Lord is speaking about Israel and about her future at this in that day time.
20:14: And he says the fortress of the high fort of your walls, he will bring down. He will lay low.
20:20: He will bring it down to the dust. Now, let's go into chapter 26.
20:27: And very, very quickly, I would just point out that in Isaiah 29 and verse 4, the
20:32: Lord once again spoke of Israel's future. And he said he was going to bring them down all the way to the ground and they would speak out of the dust.
20:42: Well, here are living people. They're speaking, but they're in the dust. And in Isaiah chapter 26, we have this great promise of the resurrection.
20:53: Now, it's interesting to me very quickly that Sam referred to Philippians chapter three in the plural.
21:01: Well, the plural bodies. It's not in the plural. It's the singular. So it's rather troubling that that Sam would change the actual
21:10: Greek of the text. Now, then, Isaiah 26 and 19, your dead shall live together with my dead body.
21:18: They shall rise awake and sing. You who dwell in the dust, dwell in the dust. Yes, dwell in the dust.
21:24: For your due is like the dew of the herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. OK, when would this be?
21:31: Well, verse 20 and 21, it would be at the day of the Lord for the avenging of the blood of the martyrs.
21:37: When did Jesus say all of the blood of all the martyrs would be avenged?
21:43: He said it would be in his generation and the judgment of Jerusalem, because they, the Jews of his day, would fill up the measure of their sin.
21:51: Well, let's go on. In Isaiah chapter 27, we continue with those references, which, by the way,
21:57: Sam never touched and never breathed on it last night. This time of Israel's salvation, this time of the resurrection out of the dust, would be the time,
22:07: Isaiah chapter 27, verse 10 and following, in which the fortified city would be desolate, the habitation forsaken, the altar would be turned to chalk stone, and the people whom the
22:20: Lord had created would no longer receive mercy. This out -of -the -dust resurrection is clearly metaphoric because Isaiah chapter 52 tells us and points us to this interesting fact.
22:34: Awake, awake, put on your strength, O Zion. Put on your beautiful garments,
22:40: O Jerusalem, the holy city. For the uncircumcised and unclean shall no longer come to you. Shake yourself from the dust and arise.
22:49: Well, how could they shake themselves from the dust if they are dead biologically?
22:55: They're not dead biologically. They were dead covenantally because they had sinned against God.
23:02: Even John Watt points out they died by being sent off into captivity, which is exactly and precisely what
23:10: Isaiah 27, 10 follows. They were dead, not biologically, but covenantally.
23:16: That's the resurrection that would come. Thank you, Don. And now we are going to go to a commercial break.
23:24: And as I have asked you before, please, folks, please be patient with us as we air commercials because this program cannot exist without the financial support of our advertisers.
23:36: So please remember that. And please be patient. And we look forward to resuming the debate right after these messages from our sponsors.
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35:33: Welcome back. This is Chris Ornzen. This is Day 2 of the
35:39: Full Preterist Debate between Full Preterist Don K. Preston and former
35:44: Full Preterist Samuel M. Frost. We have now reached the point in today's debate on the physical resurrection of the dead is still in our future where Sam Frost will offer rebuttal comments, seven minutes in length, and he will be followed by Don Preston offering his own seven -minute rebuttal.
36:05: And here is Sam Frost to once again affirm the physical resurrection of the dead is still in our future.
36:12: You have seven minutes, Sam. Thank you, Chris. Number one, it's interesting that Don talks about this
36:21: Hebraic mindset or this Hebraic understanding. And what's funny about that is
36:26: I guess the Hebrews didn't understand their own idea of what resurrection of the dead meant. I would rather go to that as a source than I would to go to something that Don himself refers to as a framework, which in my introduction, that's what
36:43: I noted, is that this is a framework that's being imposed upon the scriptures.
36:51: Secondly, Paul's agreement with the Jews, as he says, I have the same agreement with these men, would mean that if Don's framework is correct, then that would be the framework that Paul was saying that he has in agreement with the
37:07: Jews, which would mean that the framework of Don Preston is the framework that the
37:13: Jews in the first century had. But yet we find absolutely no reference, no indication, no source work outside of Don's framework that the
37:25: Jews ever entertained anything such as you just heard in his ten minute introduction and in his ten minute opening.
37:33: This is further confirmed when he states also in the context, brothers,
37:39: I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee, and I stand in my hope for the resurrection of the dead.
37:46: And here a dispute broke out between the Pharisees and the Sadducees, the Sadducees who denied the resurrection of the dead and angels and spirits and afterlife, and the
37:57: Pharisees who we know what they agreed with in terms of resurrection of the dead. And so again, we can see even right here that a foreign framework,
38:07: Don's framework, is being imposed that has no historic justification for it, and indeed has no historic work.
38:14: If you ask the Jews today, a scholar, Jewish scholar today, which many
38:20: I've asked this, was there any such concept like this in first century
38:26: Judaism or what we call second temple Judaism in academia? And the answer to that is no.
38:33: So I don't, I don't, this just underscores my point. Secondly, as an issue textually,
38:41: Don brought up Philippians 3 .21 and said that the word body there is plural, and indeed it is.
38:48: It's followed, however, by a plural noun, a genitive noun of possession.
38:54: One of the noted examples of this is, for example, that in Greek classes you would take this, is that a plural pronoun that takes a singular subject in possession can also be plural.
39:11: And an example that's used in several grammars that I have, Revelation 11 .8,
39:18: it says, every translation says, and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city. Every translation, and their dead bodies, plural, will lie in the street of the great city.
39:27: However, the Greek text is, and the dead body of them. It's singular with a plural pronoun, but the translations are all the plural bodies will lie in the streets of the great city, which just underscores the
39:42: Greek grammatical rule that a noun in the singular with a pronoun in the plural possessive can also be plural in meaning.
39:51: And in fact, many translations of Philippians 3 .21 has the plural there.
39:56: Our lowly bodies. That dismisses that point. This actually goes, because of what
40:07: Don is doing here in his framework, that all of the references that we have that we've heard in his opening that he has said are completely different and opposite terms and definitions of those terms.
40:21: And this just underscores my point that when Don talks about the second coming or the resurrection of the dead or life from the dead or any of those kinds of things, he's not talking about the same thing that you could go into any church today and start talking about death and resurrection, resurrection of the body and all of that kind of stuff.
40:42: And any Christian will immediately understand what you're talking about. However, when Don goes into a church and starts talking about the things that he's talking about using the same terminology, but different definitions, they have no clue what he's talking about, because you have to first buy into the framework in order to understand the system that's being imposed here.
41:05: And these two systems, as Don is showing us, as he's demonstrating the point, are two completely opposite systems.
41:13: They do not have the same definition. They don't even have the same reference point. And that, to me, just shows the utter disparity between both of these views.
41:24: Number four, and finally, the death that is removed, whatever that might be, and it's physical death, as Paul was using it in 1
41:32: Corinthians 15, he quotes Hosea 13, that same death, Don would agree, is the same one that's in Isaiah chapter 25 and verse 8.
41:45: But we've already read in Isaiah 25 and verse 8 that that death did not just include
41:50: Israel. It was the shroud that covered all the nations. It was the cloud that was over all the peoples.
41:59: And that cloud, which is death, would be removed not just for Israel, but for all the nations.
42:06: And indeed, within Christianity and Christian theology, in the last day, death is swallowed up in victory.
42:14: It's removed. And the effects of it are removed, which means that the just and the unjust, from Adam until the last day, will be raised from the dead.
42:25: The just and the unjust will be raised from the dead because death has been swallowed up in victory.
42:32: And when that happens, it applies to all the nations that have ever been. And those who happen to be alive at that time, death will be removed.
42:42: And all will stand before the judgment seat of God. Again, typical Judaism. And we find in typical
42:48: Christianity, and we find this image and we find this picture, that after the thousand years,
42:54: John sees this very thing. All the dead, great and small, standing before the
43:00: Lord. And then he quotes in 21 of Revelation, Isaiah 25, death shall be no more.
43:09: Thank you, Sam. And now we have Don K. Preston to give his own seven -minute rebuttal in denial of the thesis that we are addressing today, the physical resurrection of the dead is still in our future.
43:22: Don? Okay, make sure my mic is on, okay? Yeah. Okay, very good.
43:28: Here we go. Well, it's interesting to me that Frost says there was absolutely no doubt in the
43:35: Hebraic mind about resurrection. Again, it's interesting to me that when you actually read the scholarly literature, you will find that there were a variety of different views in the
43:46: Hebraic mindset concerning resurrection and life after death. As a matter of fact,
43:51: John Collins, who is one of Sam's favorite writers, makes a point of telling us, quote, there was considerable variety in the forms of belief, and bodily resurrection was not always involved.
44:04: For instance, in Jubilees 23 -31, and by the way, Sam read from a later
44:09: Christian author, so it's appropriate for me to allude to something like this. Jubilees 23 -31 promises the righteous that, quote, their bodies will rest in the earth and their spirits will increase in joy.
44:23: And so when we examine what is actually said and believed, it's not quite as cut and dried as Mr.
44:32: Frost wants us to believe. Furthermore, let's remember, the book of Job knows nothing of physical resurrection and seems to deny it.
44:43: In Job 7, 6 -10, Job says the one who goes down to the grave does not come up.
44:50: He shall never return to his house, nor shall his place to him anymore. In Job 10 -21, are not my days few?
44:59: Cease, leave me alone, that I may take a little comfort before I go to the place from which
45:04: I shall not return to the land of darkness and the shadow of death, shadow of death and darkness.
45:13: Job 14, they, that's the dead, shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
45:18: Job 16 -21, oh, that one might plead for a man with God as a man pleads for his neighbor.
45:26: For when a few years are finished, I shall go the way of no return. And let's remember that in Isaiah chapter 26, while the
45:36: Lord says your dead body shall rise, he spoke of others and said they shall not arise.
45:43: Now, Sam wants us to believe that there is an absolutely united consensus in Hebraic thought in regard to resurrection.
45:53: That's just simply not the truth, ladies and gentlemen. I have a stack of books on my desk that affirms that particular thing.
46:00: Now, I love the fact that he says that Paul specifically said that he agreed with the
46:07: Pharisees. Well, it does appear that way in Acts chapter 23. I'm a
46:13: Pharisee. And the Pharisees immediately said, hey, Paul's a great guy.
46:18: But about 14 days later, those very Pharisees want
46:24: Paul dead. They don't want him dead because he's some kind of a seditionist. They do not want him dead for any reason except one reason.
46:35: He taught resurrection. Well, wait a minute. If Paul taught resurrection in the exact same way that the
46:44: Pharisees believed it, why do the Pharisees want him dead? It will not do to say, well, they rejected
46:51: Paul's view of the resurrection, not Paul's view of the resurrection, but because he taught it in Christ. No, no, no.
46:57: They want the resurrection. And here's something that is absolutely critical, ladies and gentlemen, as N .T.
47:04: Wright, R .T. Frantz, and other scholars note. Resurrection, believed on by the
47:11: Pharisees, was inextricably bound up with their doctrine of nationalistic, geopolitical restoration.
47:21: So the Pharisees' view of the physical resurrection was not, quote, strictly theological, unquote.
47:29: It was inseparably bound up. You could not divorce their concept of resurrection, the purpose of resurrection, the framework of resurrection from their doctrine that when the
47:40: Messiah came, he was going to destroy the Romans. Now, does Sam believe that Paul agreed with that concept, that at the coming of the
47:51: Lord, Jesus would whip the Romans? The Pharisees believed that when the Messiah came, he would sit on a literal physical throne in literal physical
48:00: Jerusalem. He would purge the literal physical temple. He would restore the literal physical priesthood.
48:06: Physical animal sacrifices would be offered in purity. That was the Pharisaic view of resurrection.
48:13: All of it was bound up together, inseparably bound together. So the question is, is
48:19: Sam going to affirm that Paul agreed with the Pharisaic view of the framework?
48:26: Now, Sam said that I invented my framework. Well, I challenge anybody, and I want everyone to take note, please.
48:36: Sam Frost did not go to Hosea chapter 13 and even attempt to refute the definition of the death that is in the text.
48:44: But again, the resurrection of 1 Corinthians 15 would be the resurrection of Hosea 13 -14.
48:50: The resurrection of Hosea 13 -14 would be from the death of Hosea 13 and 1 and 2.
48:55: But the death of Hosea 13 -1 and 2 was covenantal death, sin death, alienation from God.
49:03: The resurrection of Isaiah chapter 25 and verse 8 is from the death of Isaiah 27 verse 9 and following.
49:14: Has the Lord slain Israel in the same way that he has slain others? Yes, in part, by sending her away.
49:21: How had Israel died? What was the death of Isaiah chapter 25?
49:27: Now, remember, this is, and I don't know why Sam misrepresented me on this. I made a point of saying that the death of Isaiah is not just Israel.
49:38: It's the same kind of death as from the garden. Death reigned from Adam to Moses.
49:46: Moses did not cure that death. But that death is the same death that Israel experienced in Isaiah 25, that Israel experienced in Hosea 13, and it was not biological death.
50:00: I did not impose that on the text. It's what the text emphatically says. And so when
50:06: Sam appeals, it's an ad hominem argument. And he says, well, when I go to churches, they understand what
50:12: I mean by death. That's because they've been indoctrinated in his framework. They have never heard or read or understood the actual, the biblical framework of Isaiah 25 to 29 or Hosea 13.
50:27: Well, thank you, Don. And that concludes our seven -minute rebuttals for this portion of the debate.
50:35: We are now going into another commercial break. When we return, we are going to be once again conducting my favorite part of every debate, the cross -examination section.
50:46: And this time the order will be reversed. And the full Preterist debater today,
50:53: Don K. Preston, will begin by cross -examining Sam Frost, the former full
50:59: Preterist. And then Sam will follow with his own cross -examination of Don.
51:05: And each have 10 minutes. Once again, I'm going to remind my debaters about the rules.
51:13: Whenever a debater is cross -examining his opponent or asking him questions, he is only to ask questions.
51:22: He is not to bring up things that he forgot to say earlier on in the debate to kind of play catch up.
51:29: He's not to give speeches. He's not the filibuster. And the one answering questions, the one being cross -examined, is not to ask questions of his own other than clarifying questions such as,
51:43: What did you mean by that? Can you please repeat that? Et cetera. And also, the one answering questions is not to give speeches or filibuster either.
51:53: So keep that in mind, folks. We are now going to our commercial break. And don't go away because we'll be right back with the cross -examination section right after these messages from our sponsors.
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01:08:33: We are now going to be starting the debate up again. At my favorite point in the debate, as I've said many times, every debate that I've organized over the years since 1995 always includes a portion that is my favorite portion of all, the cross -examination segment.
01:08:54: And we have our order reversed, as I said earlier, where now we have the full
01:08:59: Preterist debater, Don K. Preston, cross -examining the former full
01:09:06: Preterist, Samuel M. Frost. And he has 10 minutes to do so. And Sam Frost will follow that with his own 10 -minute cross -examination of Don Preston.
01:09:15: But first, Don, you have 10 minutes. Is Don there? Okay. Sorry.
01:09:21: I had turned it off. I wasn't absolutely sure. Okay. A little bit of point of clarification.
01:09:27: I thought I was strictly asking questions. Isn't that what I said? This is the cross -examination section.
01:09:36: Okay. So all I'm doing is asking Sam questions. Okay. Yes. Thank you very much. Okay. Here we go.
01:09:42: Sam, I have pointed out from Hosea 13, 1 and 2, that Ephraim died when she sinned and yet kept on sinning.
01:09:52: So there is a death there and yet, seemingly, continuing and continuance of sinning after that death.
01:10:01: Please demonstrate for us that, number one, this is speaking of a large individual death of individual human beings, and yet they continue to sin.
01:10:14: Which verse are you referring to, Don? Hosea 13, 1 and 2.
01:10:23: It says, when Ephraim spoke, men trembled. He was exalted in Israel, but he became guilty of veil worship and died.
01:10:31: Now they sin more and more. They make idols for themselves from their silver.
01:10:38: So if Ephraim is a tribe and identified as a tribe, of which some of them died, the tribe continued.
01:10:49: So the tribe of Ephraim can be spoken of as people that have died in Ephraim. Certainly, Ephraim has a long history by the time we get to Hosea.
01:11:01: And yet the tribe of Ephraim, which this is referring to, continues to sin more and more.
01:11:08: That's how I would answer that. Okay. Picking up on that, in Isaiah chapter 27, verse 7 and following, a directly parallel passage, it poses the question of, and I will just read this so that I won't miscite it.
01:11:30: Has he, that would be Yahweh, struck Israel as he struck those who struck him?
01:11:37: Or has he, that's Israel, been slain according to the slaughter of those who were slain by him?
01:11:44: And the answer to that question is in verse 8, in measure, sending, by sending it away.
01:11:52: You contended with it. So it certainly seems, my take on this, is that Israel was slain.
01:12:02: Israel died by being sent into captivity. Not by going into physical graves, but by being sent into captivity.
01:12:11: So please explain your take on this passage. How, once again, it is the death of individuals, and it is not a corporate death of Israel, as the text seems to indicate.
01:12:24: You're reading from, oh, I'm sorry. I'm in the wrong prophet, chapter 27. I'm in Ezekiel 27.
01:12:32: Okay. Isaiah 27, 7. And there again, because of who they are, he has struck her and he has struck down who has struck her.
01:12:51: She has been killed as those who were killed who killed her by warfare. You exiled and contend with her with this fierce blast.
01:12:58: He drives her out on the day of the east wind. Again, I don't see any of this because, for example,
01:13:06: Israel died in the wilderness. There's a verse there where it states that Israel died in the wilderness, but we know that Israel made it to the promised land.
01:13:15: So by understanding that it's in reference to the tribe of Israel, that you could have individuals within that tribe be struck down and killed, which
01:13:24: God killed quite a bit of them throughout their history. But yet, another generation would come along and they would still continue to live.
01:13:34: And I think, again, it's just speaking along in those lines that he struck her and he struck them down and he killed many of them.
01:13:44: He killed them with the Assyrians. He killed them with the Babylonians. He killed them with snakes in the desert under Moses.
01:13:51: He was going to wipe out every single one of them. But yet Moses interceded on that behalf and Israel continued.
01:14:00: That's, again, how I would answer that. Okay. Since you are saying that it refers to the death of some, and yet it refers to Israel and Ephraim, these are corporate terms.
01:14:15: They are not individual names of individual people. So how do you change the definition of Israel as a corporate identity,
01:14:26: Ephraim as a corporate identity, and say that it only refers to some?
01:14:33: If it's some, why did he not say that he killed some in Israel, some in Ephraim?
01:14:41: And I obviously have a follow -up to that. Well, for me, you can't have an idea of corporate without an idea of individuals.
01:14:50: So if you're of the tribe of Ephraim or if you're of the tribe of Dan, he could slaughter the tribe of Dan or slaughter the tribe of Manasseh or cut off the tribe of Judah.
01:15:00: But does that mean he cuts off every single Judahite? Because if he speaks later of a remnant of Judah, clearly he's not indicating that every single individual member of the tribe of Judah was killed if they have still a future that he's going to revive out of a remnant.
01:15:19: You can go both ways on the idea of corporate to where you can't, but you can never exclude the two or radically divorce the idea of the individual from a corporate.
01:15:30: You can't have a corporate without the individual. Any more than you can have a body with just an arm.
01:15:37: You have to have the entire edifice to constitute a body. Okay, let me follow up with two things very quickly because I'm running out of my time here.
01:15:47: It says that he sent Israel. Again, that's a corporate term.
01:15:53: And yes, obviously individuals were involved in that. But he killed Israel, the corporate body, by sending
01:16:02: Israel into captivity. It was the corporate body that was sent into captivity.
01:16:10: It was the corporate body that was killed by being sent off, not by perishing in physical death.
01:16:17: So please explain. Well, the issue again would underscore my point because if what you're speaking of is the death that has already come through Adam, which is a death that they were already experiencing, and then yet again, they're going to experience another corporate death, which they already were under in Adam, then how many deaths are they going to have?
01:16:41: If deaths are defined in these terms, then it seems like they're dying a lot. I mean, how many times has
01:16:47: God killed Israel? If there's only one death that came through Adam, my answer again would be along the same lines, that you have to consider both and instead of either or.
01:17:01: And both of and are aspects that are going on of the Israelite, the individual who is an
01:17:07: Israelite, and sometimes can be referred to as, that's Israel. For example,
01:17:14: Jacob, his name was Israel, and he's referred to as Israel. Sometimes it seems like in Isaiah, he's referring to just Jacob.
01:17:22: In fact, he calls him Jacob. He refers to the nation of Israel, calls him Jacob, who was an individual.
01:17:30: So again, it's a both and issue with me, rather than what you're trying to make it an either or issue.
01:17:38: Okay, follow up question very quickly here. What's my time here? Very quickly, come on.
01:17:45: Okay, in Ezekiel chapter 37, Ezekiel saw the
01:17:51: Valley of Dry Bones. And the Lord said that those Valley of Dry Bones represented, quote, the whole house of Israel.
01:18:01: So that means Judah, and that means Israel. Not some members of it, but it was the whole house of Israel.
01:18:11: And there was a resurrection that took place, and it took place, it would take place when the
01:18:18: Messiah came, when the new covenant was set in place, and the tabernacle of God was established.
01:18:28: So here is the resurrection of the whole house of Israel that was in captivity. Whole house, not just a few individuals, whole house.
01:18:40: Resurrected at the time of Christ sitting on the throne of David, whole house, or resurrection, the giving of the new covenant.
01:18:47: Please explain this and tell us how this is not, or tell us how this is a physical resurrection when
01:18:55: Christ would sit on the throne, the new covenant, and tabernacle. Well, again, for me, this underscores the point that at least the concept of what this is actually describing is a physical resurrection.
01:19:11: I will make breath to enter in, and you have bone to bone, and tendons to flesh, and flesh appearing, and flesh was cut.
01:19:17: So the concept of physical resurrection, it's debatable whether it's being used metaphorically here or whether the other way around.
01:19:25: I have commentaries on both sides of the issues. But the fact of the matter is, is that what's being described here, whether it's being used metaphorically or whether it's making a greater appeal to a greater resurrection, a better resurrection, is that we have a description here of a bone -to -bone, flesh -to -flesh, tendon -to -tendon, skin -to -skin resurrection of the dead.
01:19:47: And we are now out of time for this segment, and now Samuel M. Frost will cross -examine
01:19:54: Don K. Preston for 10 minutes. I'd like to stay in Ezekiel 37, but I'm going to go to Philippians 321.
01:20:07: And I'm going to ask Don there, on that particular text, it says, and I'm just,
01:20:17: I'm reading out of the Greek text, He who shall change us, Christ is the subject of the relative.
01:20:24: He who will change the body of the humility of us.
01:20:30: Now, Don, are you under the impression there that the body there can only be singular?
01:20:37: It cannot be plural? I believe that the body that is there is the old covenant body that is described in the very first part of Philippians chapter 3, in which
01:20:49: Paul urged the brethren, Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilation, for we are the circumcision who worship
01:20:57: God in the spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, have no confidence in the flesh. And he describes the old covenant world, and he describes that as, well, to be blunt, as dung.
01:21:13: It was the body of humiliation. It was the body that was mortal. It was the body of corruption that was being transformed, even when
01:21:22: Paul wrote, into the immortal, incorruptible, new covenant man of Jesus Christ.
01:21:28: That's the context of the entire passage. We don't just jump in at Philippians chapter 3.
01:21:36: And so let me, excuse me, verse 20 and 21, and say, oh well,
01:21:41: Paul's talking about Christ's individual body and our individual bodies. We have to look at the passage when he says, our citizenship is in heaven.
01:21:52: I mean, one commentator after another agrees that Paul is setting forth a contrast between cities here.
01:21:59: Well, if he's contrasting cities, he is contrasting covenant worlds. He's contrasting bodies.
01:22:06: And that's the whole point. Paul had a desire to know Christ, and I want to make this point very, very clear.
01:22:16: Paul said that it was his desire that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, the fellowship of his sufferings, being conformed to his death.
01:22:27: If by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
01:22:33: Now look, if resurrection is a divine fiat act of God of raising biological bodies out of the dead, then
01:22:40: Paul was going to attain to it whether or not he wanted to. But it was Paul's desire to attain.
01:22:48: And the word attain there, if I remember correctly, you may correct me on this, you can double check the Greek, I don't have much
01:22:53: Greek text in front of me, but it's from contento. It's to arrive at a destination, to arrive at a goal.
01:23:00: And Paul said that it was his desire to attain to the resurrection from the dead.
01:23:07: Then he says, not that I have already attained. Well, look, folks, if Paul's talking about biological resurrection or resurrection of biologically dead resurrections, dead physical bodies, what kind of a statement is it for Paul to say,
01:23:23: I want to attain to the resurrection even though I haven't attained it yet? Well, obviously he had not attained it yet because he hadn't died biologically yet.
01:23:32: That's tautologous, and it makes no sense whatsoever. Paul was looking at the resurrection from the dead as something that he could strive toward and could attain, just like he said in 1
01:23:47: Corinthians chapter 15, as we have borne the image of the earthly. Let us bear, in the subjunctive mode, which is the preferred and more accurate mode there, let us bear the image of the earthly.
01:24:05: That's exactly parallel to Philippians chapter 3, and so Paul says it was his desire to attain to the resurrection of the dead, but not that I have already attained or I'm already perfect, but notice what he does.
01:24:18: He says, to the degree I have already attained. Do what?
01:24:26: How had Paul already attained to a degree or to a measure of resurrection if resurrection is from biological death?
01:24:36: Was Paul almost biologically dead? No. So, to put this in the context of biological death and biological bodies really makes no sense at all.
01:24:49: Now, one final point here. It is widely assumed... I just want to be able to get in a couple more questions here before we go very much long.
01:25:00: I'll hurry here, Sam. It is widely assumed that Paul's talking about Christ's post -resurrection, pre -ascension body as being his glorious transformed body.
01:25:11: I deny that. Categorically, Paul is referring to Christ's heavenly existence, about which
01:25:19: John said, we do not know what he is like. So I'll stop right there so you can ask some other questions.
01:25:25: Well, the text here that he's comparing the body with is with the body of his glory.
01:25:32: Would you affirm that Jesus, that the body of his glory was in existence when
01:25:38: Paul said this? Obviously, Christ ascended into glory.
01:25:44: He sat down with the right hand. The bodily ascended. Christ ascended in the same identical, unchanged biological body that came out of the grave.
01:25:57: That is not the body that he had when Paul wrote. John said in 1
01:26:03: John chapter 3, beloved, dear children of God, now we are the children of God, but it does not yet appear what we shall be.
01:26:12: We do not know what he is like, John said. Well, John was writing about the same time that Paul was and says, we don't know what he's like, but we do know that we'll be like him when he comes.
01:26:22: Now, John knew, just as Paul probably did, exactly what Jesus's post -resurrection, pre -ascension body was like.
01:26:30: John said in John chapter 1 verse 3 and following, that which was from the beginning, which we have seen, which our eyes have held, which our hands have touched, which we have handled the word of God.
01:26:41: John handled Jesus after his resurrection. He saw Jesus eat. He saw
01:26:46: Jesus walk with him. He touched his body, so far as we know. So he knew what his post -resurrection, pre -ascension body was.
01:26:53: He did not know what his post -resurrection body was. And that's the focus of Philippians chapter 3.
01:27:01: So, you would assert that Jesus did not ascend in the same body that he had when he came out of the tomb.
01:27:10: Sam, you're misrepresenting what I said. I was very clear on what I said. The very same, identical body that came out of the grave is what ascended out of their sight.
01:27:23: He no longer has that same mortal, unchanged biological body.
01:27:31: I have said this on numerous occasions. So, that would not be a resurrection body that they're being transformed into, because the word here, sumorphae, or sumorphos, refers to the form, which is what morphos means.
01:27:47: So, what is being said here is a comparison. The body that we have, the lowly body, will be changed to be like the body that he has, which is a body of glory.
01:27:59: And, which means that it must be in existence. Both of these things must be in existence to make the comparison work.
01:28:06: Now, are you going to preach to me, or are you going to preach to me? How is a corporate, non -physical body being transformed into a corporate, non -physical body?
01:28:18: Number one, you started preaching to me, you stopped asking questions. Number two,
01:28:25: Paul is talking about, and you've ignored every single thing that I have said in regard to the physical, or to the contrast between bodies in Philippians chapter three, between the old body of Israel, which was the mortal, which was the corruptible, versus the body of Christ.
01:28:43: And there is but one body in Paul's eschatological and soteriology.
01:28:51: And that one body is his church. That body was going through transition. And let me point out again,
01:28:58: Paul said that the resurrection that he hoped to attain to was already taking place.
01:29:04: Now, this agrees perfectly, by the way, with John chapter 5, 24 and 25, when
01:29:09: Jesus said, the hour is coming and now is, in which those who are, in which the dead, now, the audience needs to know that Sam Frost says there's only one kind of death in the
01:29:20: Bible, and that's physical death. Well, that means that Jesus was saying in John chapter 5, 24 and following, the hour is coming and now is, in which the dead shall hear the voice of the
01:29:31: Son of Man, and those who hear shall live. Well, that means that the biological, physical resurrection of the dead had already begun even before Jesus was resurrected.
01:29:41: Well, nobody believes that. At least, I don't think Sam believes that. And so, and yet we have
01:29:47: Paul right here in Philippians chapter 3 saying, I hope to attain unto the resurrection
01:29:52: I have not yet attained, but to the degree that I have attained. And so here is
01:29:58: Paul affirming in the clearest sense possible that the resurrection of the dead had already begun.
01:30:05: All right, we're out of time for this segment. And we are going to our final commercial break. And when we return, each of our debaters are going to give closing remarks lasting seven minutes each, and we are going back to the original order with Sam Frost who has affirmed the physical resurrection of the dead is still in our future, going first, and then followed by Don Preston who denies that thesis.
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01:37:37: We are now back with our final part of the program, and each debater, starting with Sam Frost, is going to give closing remarks of seven minutes each.
01:37:48: And if you could, Sam Frost, begin. You now have seven minutes. Well, there's two points I want to make. The first one is
01:37:54: I hope it's become clear to the listener the utter disparity between what
01:38:01: Don calls his framework. It is a framework, that it's being imposed upon the
01:38:07: Scriptures, and that the terms that are being used are not common.
01:38:12: In fact, Don mentions this, let me quote him, that if you walked into a church and talked about resurrection of the dead, he said they would agree with my view because, quote, they have been indoctrinated.
01:38:25: I want that to sink in. I want you to catch the power of that. For 2 ,000 years, on these fundamental core issues that have united the church, they have been indoctrinated.
01:38:40: And I want that to sink in, that the entire edifice on these matters have been an indoctrination, a false indoctrination, an indoctrination that is entirely and completely devoid of reality, according to Don Preston's new framework that nobody has ever had before, prior to the last 50 or so years.
01:39:10: I want that point to sink in, because that's what's being said here. These two views, as I have hoped to demonstrate in these two days, are not compatible.
01:39:23: This is not just an agreement or disagreement over the millennium. This is not a disagreement over how long is the millennium going to be, or whether the millennium is still future or not, or whether or not there's going to be a rapture.
01:39:38: This doesn't even enter into those conversations. This is a complete overhaul of Christianity.
01:39:47: These definitions of Don's framework and the definitions of my framework are not compatible.
01:39:55: They're completely opposite. Don walked right into Philippians 3 .21, where there he says that the body—I don't know of any commentary that I have, and I have quite a bit in my library over the last 30 or so years, that would even suggest something like this.
01:40:17: Secondly, the Philippians, Paul says, our lowly bodies. So were the Philippians part of Old Covenant Israel?
01:40:23: Last I checked, I don't think that they were. But Don says this is solely a transformation of Old Covenant metaphorical, non -formed, non -physical, corporate body that's being transformed into a non -physical, non -form, non -morphos, no form, glorious body of Jesus, which
01:40:50: Don admitted is not the body that he had when he walked out of the tomb. He has another body.
01:40:58: Where he got that body, I have no idea. Don didn't say, and I didn't have time to press him on asking him, where did he get that body?
01:41:07: It would have to be a metaphorical body, would it not? If the glorious body of Christ already exists, which it must, according to the
01:41:16: Greek text because a comparison is being made, then is that metaphorical corporate body of the glorious body of Christ, is that also a metaphorical body?
01:41:30: Is that also a non -morphos, non -formed body? Would it not be the individual body of Jesus of Nazareth who appeared to Paul and introduced himself years after he was dead and raised from the dead, and then he appears to Paul and he introduces himself as,
01:41:48: I am Jesus of Nazareth. That sounds like an individual to me.
01:41:55: It sounds like when Paul says, and I, like the others, also saw him.
01:42:01: Did he see a non -physical, non -corporate, metaphorical body named
01:42:08: Jesus? Who did he talk to? Well, he introduced himself as Jesus of Nazareth, and that tells me exactly who he is.
01:42:17: This is the man that they crucified on the cross, who was buried for three days.
01:42:22: His physical body was buried for three days, and his physical body was raised unto glory and honor, according to Hebrews chapter 2, crowned with glory and honor at the moment of his resurrection.
01:42:40: This is not a corporate body, not a metaphorical body. It is an actual body, and every
01:42:46: Christian has believed this. This was stated again, over and over and over again.
01:42:54: The other aspect and the other point of this is that Don did say this is his framework, and that you have to buy into the framework, as I did many, many years ago.
01:43:07: And I was hooked in by time statements that seemed on the surface to make the case that indeed all these things took place in 70
01:43:15: AD. But when I continued to press that issue on these other matters in the theological encyclopedia of Christianity, I began to find that I had to redefine this doctrine, and I had to redefine that doctrine, and I also had to redefine these other doctrines over here, all because I hung my whole hat,
01:43:39: I put all my eggs in one basket on time text. And because of that,
01:43:45: I brought myself to the place where I was making arguments, such as the old covenant
01:43:50: Israel non -corporate metaphorical body of the Adamic death curse that came through the sin of Adam, which covered over all men, is the redemption from which in the metaphorical corporate new covenant natured body, corporate entity of the metaphor of life from the death, which has nothing to do with physical death, by the way, which is what everybody can relate to.
01:44:15: I found myself speaking like this. These are two different systems. These are two different frameworks, and neither of them can be compatible with each other.
01:44:25: And both of them cannot call themselves Christianity and say that with a straight face.
01:44:32: With that, I close. Thank you, Sam. And now, Don Preston, you have seven minutes. Is my microphone?
01:44:39: Yes, it is. OK. OK, there we go. All right. All right. Let me start off by observing something here.
01:44:46: Sam implied, and Sam has said during this debate, that I hang everything on the time statements.
01:44:52: I believe that if anyone goes back and listens to last night, and certainly tonight, they will find that I alluded to time statements extremely few times.
01:45:02: I appealed to 1 Peter chapter 4. I appealed to Hebrews chapter 10. I appealed to Matthew chapter 24.
01:45:09: But guess what? Mr. Frost did not address one single one of those time statements.
01:45:15: Because Sam Frost knows that if he admits that even one time statement of the eminence of the coming of the
01:45:21: Lord, the judgment, the resurrection, are valid, then his entire framework is destroyed.
01:45:28: Catch the power of that. And realize, realize, folks, he did not breathe on one single argument.
01:45:37: But the point of fact is, guess what, folks? I did not rely on time statements. I went to Isaiah chapters 24 through 27.
01:45:46: I showed you that the context of the resurrection in those passages was the time in which, and remember, once again,
01:45:54: Sam Frost did not breathe on these arguments. Literally not a word.
01:46:00: So once again, please catch the power of this. The resurrection of Isaiah 25, 26, and 27 would be when the fortified city would be destroyed, when the temple would be turned, or altar would be turned to chalk stone, when the people whom the
01:46:19: Lord had created would no longer receive mercy. I called attention to the fact, you can call this a time statement if you want, but not in the sense that Sam is referring to it.
01:46:30: It's not an at -hand, coming -quickly -etc. time statement. But Isaiah 27 is citing
01:46:37: Deuteronomy chapter 32, which was a prediction of what would happen to Israel in her last days.
01:46:45: Now, since the resurrection of Isaiah 27 would be in fulfillment of Deuteronomy 32, and Deuteronomy 32 is about Israel's last days, not the last days of time, not the last days of the
01:46:57: Christian age, then that means that the resurrection of 1 Corinthians 15, the resurrection of Isaiah 25, the resurrection of Hosea 13 would be in Israel's last days, not the last days of time.
01:47:11: Sam didn't breathe on that. Literally did not say one word. And look, folks,
01:47:16: I didn't create that framework. It's in Isaiah 25, or 24, in which heaven and earth would be destroyed as a result of Israel's violation of the
01:47:26: Torah, verses 1 to 5. And in the day of the destruction of that heaven and earth, the
01:47:32: Lord would rule gloriously from Zion. In that day, the temple would be turned over to foreigners.
01:47:37: The fortified city destroyed, Isaiah 25, which I called attention to numerous times. Sam Frost ignored it.
01:47:44: That day would be the day of salvation of Israel when the Lord would come and avenge the blood of the martyrs, which
01:47:50: I pointed out in Isaiah chapter 23. Excuse me, Matthew chapter 23,
01:47:56: Jesus posited for his generation unequivocally and undeniably. Sam Frost ignored that.
01:48:02: I pointed out that that day of the Lord's coming to avenge the blood of the martyrs would be when Leviathan would be destroyed.
01:48:09: I did point out, oh, by the way, here was a time statement. Oh, that Sam Frost totally ignored.
01:48:15: Paul said in Romans chapter 16, verse 20, the God of peace shall crush
01:48:21: Satan under your feet shortly. That, yes, it's a time statement. Guess what?
01:48:27: We dare not put ourselves into a situation as Sam Frost has done to literally scoff at over 200 divinely inspired statements about when things were to occur.
01:48:44: I pointed out in tonight's presentation that Hosea chapter 13 predicted the resurrection that Paul anticipated in 1
01:48:54: Corinthians 15, but the resurrection in Hosea chapter 13 was not biological death.
01:49:01: Sam Frost changed the focus from the corporate to the individual saying, well, some in Israel died, but that's not what the text says.
01:49:11: It says Israel died. Ephraim died. Just like in Isaiah chapter 27,
01:49:18: God had slain Israel. Not some in Israel. He had slain Israel.
01:49:24: So Sam literally changes the text so that it doesn't say
01:49:29: Israel. It says some in Israel. But the death in Isaiah 25 through 27 was the being sent off, that being alienated from God because of sin.
01:49:43: And by the way, let me point out that the resurrection of Hosea chapter 13, when
01:49:50: God would remarry Israel, I pointed out, which Sam Frost totally ignored, that the wedding would be at the coming of the
01:49:58: Lord in Matthew chapter 22 at the destruction of Jerusalem.
01:50:04: Once again, totally ignored. I brought up Ezekiel chapter 37, which presented the whole house of Israel.
01:50:15: Not some in the whole houses of Israel, but the whole house of Israel, both
01:50:21: Judah and Israel, depicted as dead. Yet guess what, folks?
01:50:27: They were talking. We are lost. We are dead.
01:50:32: That's dead men talking. But Sam Frost said, no, those are biologically dead people.
01:50:39: I posed a question to Sam, asked him to answer the question that since that resurrection of the whole house of Israel would take place when
01:50:48: Messiah was on the throne of David, which by the way, was taking place in Acts chapter 2, it would take place when the new covenant was established and when
01:50:56: God established his tabernacle among them. Now, I think we all know, at least I hope we do, that guess what?
01:51:03: The new covenant had been instituted on Pentecost. The tabernacle of God had begun to be constructed.
01:51:10: That means that Israel was being raised from the dead. But I'm real, real sure that it was not the biologically dead humans of Israel that were being raised.
01:51:22: On Philippians chapter 3, I pointed out, this is not my invented and contrived framework.
01:51:30: This is what the text says. Paul said the resurrection had already begun.
01:51:36: So Sam Frost can say, well, the church has never believed this all he wants. Okay, we're not out of time.
01:51:43: Okay, and now we are going to go to some audience questions. And keep in mind, folks, both of our debaters have agreed to a third program.
01:51:53: We just don't know exactly what date yet. Don Preston has to check his schedule and so on.
01:52:00: But we are going to have a third program where after our debaters give a recap, we're going to take the entire remainder of the time only for audience questions.
01:52:11: And so hopefully most or all of those who have written in questions will have those questions asked and answered during that program.
01:52:19: But let me go to the ones that we have right now. We have, let's see, we have
01:52:27: David in Atlanta, Georgia, has a question for Sam Frost. And his question is,
01:52:33: Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15, 51, we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.
01:52:43: Did the Corinthians fall asleep before death was swaddled up in victory? Yeah, that used to be one of the hooks that got me when
01:52:55: I read Max King. And what is going on there is that what
01:53:01: Max King did was he equated the term fall asleep, which is a euphemism, and the term dying or dead.
01:53:11: And when Paul says all in Adam die, and then he turns around and says, we shall not all sleep, which what's the sleight of hand here?
01:53:21: Max King says, well, if we're not all going to die, but in Adam all die, then the death that he's talking about cannot be physical death.
01:53:27: And that was the slip that caught me. However, upon further research and studying what fall in the sleep means is sleeping in the dust of the earth, undergoing a burial, undergoing all of that kind of stuff.
01:53:39: That's what the euphemism means. That's how it's been used. It's actually used in the Old Testament several times, sleeping with your fathers.
01:53:47: But if the transformation or change comes while those who are alive, the change comes in a flash and in an instant.
01:53:54: And as Augustine understood that passage, as well as other commentaries, is that as they switch from death, from corruption to incorruption immediately.
01:54:05: But it is not a negation of the fact of all in Adam die. What Paul was saying is that some of us are going to be alive at the time when the brightness of the glory of Christ is unveiled.
01:54:17: And you're out of time, actually. And I forgot to mention, I'm sorry, this is my fault. I forgot to mention that each debater has a minute to answer the question you've been asked.
01:54:27: And the other debater has 30 seconds to respond. So now you have 30 seconds,
01:54:33: Don Preston. Okay. Well, actually what Sam Frost did there was to completely and totally evade the question.
01:54:40: Paul was very, very clear. We shall not all sleep. This is exactly parallel.
01:54:46: Excuse me, Matthew 16, 27 and 28, where Jesus said, the Son of Man will come in the glory of the
01:54:52: Father with his angels and shall judge every man according to his words. And verily I say unto you, there are some standing here which shall not taste of death until they see the
01:55:01: Son of Man coming in his kingdom. Christ coming in his kingdom is 1 Corinthians 15. Because Paul talked about flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven.
01:55:11: Both passages talk about entering the kingdom, seeing the kingdom. Jesus said, or some standing there would not die until they saw it.
01:55:19: Paul said, we will not all die. And we're out of time. We have a question now for Don Preston from CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York.
01:55:32: Do you no longer believe that Jesus Christ is the
01:55:38: God -man? And perhaps he meant to say, do you believe Jesus Christ is no longer the God -man?
01:55:46: I have affirmed on more occasions that I can count that Jesus is God -man.
01:55:52: The thesis and the underlying assumption that is being, that is driving the question, if I'm mistaken, it can be corrected, is the idea that Jesus has to have a biological or physical body in order to be man.
01:56:05: And yet, in fact, Sam has affirmed before, you cannot be a human without a physical body.
01:56:11: And yet Jesus was in heaven three days without a physical body. I asked Sam repeatedly, was
01:56:17: Jesus human? Well, he was in heaven. He refused to answer the question. Moses and Elijah appeared on the mountain of transfiguration.
01:56:25: Did they have biological bodies? Well, what did they appear? In Acts chapter 9, verse 39,
01:56:32: Dorcas had died. And the widows gathered around showed Peter the garments that she,
01:56:38: Dorcas, had made, quote, while she was with them. Now, the body was there, but Dorcas was not.
01:56:47: And we're out of time for that. And you have 30 seconds, Sam, to respond. Yeah, you have to have a physical body to be human.
01:56:55: I love what the gospels say in three occasions in the John's gospel, where it says, and they laid
01:57:01: Jesus in the tomb. And Mary says, they have taken my Lord in reference to the body.
01:57:09: And there's another, they laid his body in the tomb. Not it, his body.
01:57:17: So even though the body was in the tomb, it didn't belong to Fred. It wasn't Mike's body. It belonged to Jesus.
01:57:23: And he took that body back up, and it was glorified. He ascended into heaven with that very same body.
01:57:30: Okay, and we have a question now for Sam Frost from John in Bangor, Maine.
01:57:36: Uh, Sam, it is my understanding that you believe that being a full preterist puts one outside of Christianity.
01:57:45: Does that mean that you believe that you are not regenerate or born again until after you abandon full preterism?
01:57:53: I believe that in terms of a historic definition of what
01:57:58: Christianity is, based upon what Christianity believes in its unified core fundamental teachings, that yes, hyper -preterism or full preterism is heretical.
01:58:10: I also believe in the election of God, and that according to the Westminster Confession of Faith, those that are truly of the elect of God can fall into error at times, even dangerous errors, yet not so much to lose the grace of God.
01:58:25: I came out of this error when I saw how damaging it was to the faith of Jesus Christ and to Christianity in general.
01:58:32: I left it. And I believe I left it because the Holy Spirit in me that dwells in me called me to leave it and to see it for what it was.
01:58:41: And Don, you have 30 seconds to respond. Well, I believe there are a world of presuppositions contained in Sam's answer.
01:58:50: He really didn't answer the question. Was he a heretic? Was he lost? During the time that he was conscientiously, supposedly, a full preterist.
01:59:00: Now, if he conscientiously believed in the full preterist view, if he espoused it with all of his heart, with all of his soul, with all of his mind, with all of his intellect, then was he guilty of a heinous, heretical doctrine?
01:59:14: He is assuming, he is assuming, I understand where he's coming from, the reformed position that says, well, he is of the elect.
01:59:22: How does he know he's of the elect? And we're out of time, Don, I'm sorry.
01:59:28: And I want to thank you both for being a part of this very important debate. I'm looking forward to our third day when we are dedicating the vast majority of the program to audience questions only.
01:59:40: I want to thank everybody who listened, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater