Is Calvinism True? Limited Atonement

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00:00

Non -rockabodas must stop. I don't want to rock the boat. I want to sink it

00:08

Are you gonna bark all day, little doggie? Or are you gonna bite? We're being delusional. Delusional?

00:15

Delusional's okay in your worldview. I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional. You don't chastise pigs for being delusional.

00:21

So you calling me delusional using your worldview is perfectly okay. It doesn't really hurt. It's hung up on me!

00:27

YES! What? What? Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men.

00:38

The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men, lauding them for their courage.

00:45

Go into all the world and make disciples. Not go into the world and make buddies. Not to make brosives. Don't go into the world and make homies.

00:52

Disciples. I got a bit of a jiggle neck. That's a joke,

00:59

Pastor. When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not.

01:20

But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent, not made with hands, that is not of this creation,

01:32

He entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves, but by means of His own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

01:43

Amen! What's up, everybody? Welcome back to another episode of Apologia Radio. This is the gospel heard around the world.

01:51

I'm Jeff, the Coleman and Ninja. That's Zachary Conover. What's up, guys? Director of Communications for EAN and Abortion Now.

01:59

So glad that you joined us for this important show, a continuation of the series that we have been doing right here on Apologia Radio.

02:06

It's been scattered, admittedly, but we're getting through it. And it's the series, Is Calvinism True?

02:13

And today we're on everyone's favorite. Yes. Everyone's favorite. Actually, it is my favorite.

02:19

The point with the least amount of contention. Yeah, right. Limited atonement. We chose that terminology even though we don't really like it in terms of it doesn't really express what we're saying.

02:29

But it does help with the tulip part, making it tulip and not toot. Power intact.

02:35

Not toot it. Or toot it, I guess. Yeah, exactly. Sovereignty. That's right. That's right.

02:41

And so we're going to be talking about definite redemption. Did Jesus come to save and save perfectly?

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Or can Jesus fail in his redemption, in his atonement? Was his atonement purposeful, perfect?

02:54

Is it truly finished? Is it able to perfect forever, those who draw near to God through him?

03:00

Was the atonement of Jesus potential? Was it potential? Was it something that's potential or is it efficacious?

03:08

Is it a perfect redemption? Does it accomplish the purpose for which God made it?

03:14

And so that's what we're going to talk about today. And so I want to point everybody to ApologiaStudios .com. A -P -O -L -O -G -I -A

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That's for us to know. That's right. You will find out. You will find out. And so it's all there, guys. Ask Me Anything is there.

05:14

The Apologia After Show is there. So after this show today, we actually are going to do a quick after show right here, right at ApologiaStudios .com.

05:21

And so if you're all accessed, you get access to that. I wanted to lead everybody into, before we get into the discussion of limited atonement, definite redemption, or particular redemption,

05:30

I want to tell everybody there's a lot of stuff happening right now. So I think you guys will be excited to hear this. For those of you guys that have known us for a long time, you've been praying for this ministry.

05:38

You give to this ministry. You give towards end abortion now. We have been given the gift to be able to serve

05:45

Christ for His fatherless children for many years now with End Abortion Now and our local outreach at our local abortion mill.

05:54

And we've been able to raise up, I think we're getting close to 1 ,000 churches globally, mostly across the

06:01

United States of America. And they're out saving lives, many of them. And we've been able to, by God's grace, raise up churches in the

06:08

Republic of Ireland, Northern Ireland. We've been able to now get it started in Germany.

06:14

We actually went to Germany near the end of last year to meet with pastors and churches from across Germany, one from Hungary, and to get this work started to save lives in Germany.

06:25

So all that's taking place because of you. I wanted to tell you what's going on. But you know, many of you, that we have been working with a prophetic ministry that is foretelling the

06:37

Word of God to our local magistrates and magistrates across the country, legislators across the country.

06:43

And so we have right now, prospectively, that is we have commitments from legislators in about 21 states across this nation happening this legislative session, many of them.

06:55

And so that is a very, very big deal. Bills of abolition and equal protection are happening across the country.

07:01

And so please be in prayer. We even have one happening in our own state, Arizona. It's happening across the country.

07:07

We need you. And so I'll just say two things. One, we need financial help. This is a massive undertaking.

07:13

Some of these bills are bills that we were able to communicate with the legislator and to get the bill put in. We got the bill drafted through our attorney,

07:20

Bradley Pierce. Bill's going in that way. Some of the bills are bills that other pastors, Christian organizations are doing, and we're backing them up.

07:27

And so we're kind of all working together, providing support for each other. But it's a huge undertaking. It's a lot to take on.

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And so one of the states, this is important, this is what I want to tell you. One of the states is Iowa. We just recently got word that we were able to get

07:41

Iowa. Bill was drafted. Bill was just put in on Monday. And Representative Zach Deacon is our guy in Iowa.

07:50

And it's a bill of equal protection for all humans from fertilization. It would abolish it in Iowa. We have so many states where we have a lot of ground support.

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We've got a lot of pastors, a lot of churches, a lot of organizations. A state like Georgia is a state like that. We've just got a lot of support for our bill in Georgia, which, by the way, we also may have one in the

08:09

Senate now, too. One in the House. I know they're working on it. There's a variety of different channels they're exploring to get the bill hearing, and they're working on the

08:15

Senate side, too. Yeah. So there's potentially that going on. But anyway, Iowa for us is a state where we feel like we're just breaking ground.

08:22

And so I know everyone's excited to get to the show today, but I've got to let you know what God is doing, especially for those of you guys that give so faithfully to this ministry and have helped to get us to where we are right now to establish justice.

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Iowa, we feel like we're kind of breaking new ground because we didn't anticipate getting a bill in Iowa, but the

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Lord gave it to us, and it's very providential. We are so thankful for it. So with that,

08:44

Zach and I and Carmen are heading to Iowa next week, and so we will be in Iowa, in Des Moines, next

08:54

Friday, 6 p .m., Calvary Chapel, Des Moines. Right. 6 p .m.,

08:59

Calvary Chapel, Des Moines. From what I understand, it's right near the Capitol. Yeah, a block or so.

09:05

Yeah, a block away from the Capitol. And so if you're in Iowa or if you know pastors and Christians in Iowa, we need you there because what we're doing is we're coming in to basically get connected with the churches there so we're all on the same page, same message of the gospel, same truth, and we are going to work hard to have justice established in Iowa.

09:25

And it needs to be a move of the church, and so we are coming out to get face -to -face with you. 6 p .m. next

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Friday, that's January the 9th. Right. February. Sorry, February the 9th, 6 p .m.,

09:39

Calvary Chapel, Des Moines. Just be there. I mean, if you're a pastor, we need you there. If you're a

09:44

Christian leader, we need you there. And so that's what's up with Iowa, and we have a lot going on, a whole lot going on.

09:51

But that's an update for everyone. Please pray for that. This is a very big moment for the church to have this many bills of abolition happening across the country.

09:59

Wow, wow, wow, God. I mean, seriously. In 2015, we're just begging

10:04

God, like just one, one courageous godly legislator, and look where we're at today.

10:11

It's a paradigm shift in how Christians are now viewing their responsibility in the public arena as well. It's not just, you know, the church inside the four walls.

10:19

It's actually in the public square with a message of peace and reconciliation with God and the kingship of Christ.

10:25

Overall things now establishing justice for the pre -born. So it is an incredibly exciting time.

10:30

It is. And again, we need you to pray for us. We need you to join us when we get to those states. That's the second thing

10:35

I want to say to you. Join us when we get to those states, and we need your partnership in that. We need your hands and feet.

10:41

We need your voice. We need your fingers to dial and put pressure on legislators who profess to be Christian and profess to be pro -life.

10:49

We need you to call and tell them to give the bill a hearing. And you can go to endabortionnow .com to give and to get connected immediately with us.

10:59

And there's a page there where you can figure out exactly who you need to start calling with a script and with an email you can send for your state.

11:05

And so that's what's going on. Welcome everybody to the show. Thank you to everybody who's partnering with us again.

11:11

And thank you for everyone who's communicating through the comments. And here we go. So we've been doing the series on Is Calvinism True?

11:18

Now for those of you guys that are just maybe clicking on this for the first time, you found a search, you did a search, and you landed on this.

11:25

You don't know who we are. You don't know what this conversation is about. We have said as we've done this that we are

11:30

Calvinists. We believe in the doctrines of grace. However, we don't follow a man named John Calvin.

11:36

That's not why I'm a quote -unquote Calvinist. Calvinism is a term in history that's used as a quick reference as to a system of beliefs that you have surrounding, in this case, the doctrines of grace or how does

11:55

God save. Soteriological understanding is what we would say, a doctrine of salvation. Yeah.

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Really, when we're talking about Calvinism and you say I'm a Calvinist, it's not referencing at all the man

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John Calvin. It's just a title over a way that you view the grace of God, the power of God in salvation, the atonement of Christ.

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Was it potential or was it perfect? Does it accomplish redemption or does it make men save a bull or does it actually save?

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It's a quick way to communicate truth. For example, are you Unitarian or are you

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Trinitarian? Well, I'm Trinitarian. That's a view of God from Scripture in history that has a long historical pedigree to it.

12:38

I don't need to go into all the details immediately so you can understand what I believe about the nature of God and the persons of God.

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I can say I believe in the Trinity and you get it right away. And so when someone says, are you Calvinist?

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Yes. Nothing to do with a man named John Calvin. Has to do with what do the Scriptures say about God's grace, power to save, the atonement itself.

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And so that's what we're saying when we say we're Calvinist. And for us, this belief in Calvinism, the doctrines of grace, for us, it is really about protecting, preserving the biblical view of the nature of man in the fall and the grace of God and salvation.

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For me, that's it. That's it. So when I say Calvinist, that's what I'm getting at. I believe this about the fall of man and man's capabilities in the fall and his nature.

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And I believe this about the grace of God. This is what I believe about the grace of God. And that's really what we're getting at.

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Right, and even more so the absolute freedom of God. That also is something that is more than worthy of preserving, according to the

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Scriptures, that God is the free one in this equation, and he's acting to bring about his own glorification in the world and in the work of salvation.

13:55

So you mentioned Trinitarian. We are Trinitarians, and that also applies to our view of salvation.

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There is a plan that God has decided on in eternity past that is being carried out by the persons of the

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Trinity. And the persons of the Trinity are working in complete unison and harmony to bring about the redemption of a particular people to the glory and praise of the grace of God.

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So this is a Trinitarian view of salvation. That's right, and what you're getting at is, to make it simple for everyone who maybe is just getting into this, we're saying that the plan of redemption is the triune

14:30

God's plan of redemption and accomplishment. It is the Father who chooses to save and elects, it is the

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Son who comes to redeem and accomplish that redemption, and it's the Holy Spirit who comes to apply that redemption perfectly.

14:43

Right. So in unison, in perfection, this plan of redemption, Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Yeah, there's no discord amongst members of the

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Godhead. I guess we could put it that way. I think you defined the issue is in terms of how we view the atonement, but maybe starting or leaping off here, how does this relate to election?

15:03

Right, the you in the tulip. Well, God did not send his

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Son to die for those he did not predetermine to be saved. Yeah. Right. The same ones chosen by the

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Father are redeemed by the Son, and those are the ones that are sanctified by the Spirit.

15:21

And I think one of an often overlooked text on this would be something that you would see in a greeting to believers in the first century, in the epistles.

15:30

For example, 1 Peter 1, Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who are elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the

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Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood.

15:49

So there's one verse in the greeting of a letter that connects the redemptive work of Christ and sprinkling and cleansing his people, right?

15:56

His offering, his atonement, what that did for the people of God with the foreknowledge or the loving selection of the

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Father of his people, his active involvement in their lives, whereby he sets his intentional love upon them from eternity past and chooses them for himself together with this beautiful continuation of the

16:18

Christian walk in the sanctification of the Spirit. So every member of the Trinity has an active role in bringing about the redemption of God's people.

16:25

That's right. And so we have done already the sovereignty of God. So we took what

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James has said. You really need to start to live off with the sovereignty of God. So it really needs to be a stulip.

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And so we started with the sovereignty of God. You guys can go back and you can watch that one as well. We also went into total depravity, total inability, man's radical corruption, and in that particular show we went through just a ton of text in Scripture talking about the nature of man in the fall.

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What is he able to do? Is his will truly free or is he enslaved to sin? Can he do what's pleasing to God while he's in the flesh?

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And then we went into unconditional election, how God chooses to save and on what basis does

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God choose to save. And now we're in the limited atonement portion of the acrostic or the acronym tulip.

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And so total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, and perseverance of the saints.

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And so today we're on the subject of the atonement itself. And what's interesting, and I want to just say this to those of you guys that may be in the comments right now and you're already quoting the chestnut verses, not dealing with really the whole vast sections and just going, but what about this verse over here?

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We want you to know that we're going to have a particular episode. We were actually just engaged with the handful of texts that are used often, the chestnut verses against,

17:53

I think, the entire overwhelming testimony of what Scripture says about the atonement. We are going to deal with those.

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Maybe we'll deal with some of them today. This is more of a positive case. Yeah, today we want to deal with, well, let's talk about what the

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Bible says about the atonement. Like what does Jesus accomplish in the atonement? Why did he come?

18:09

What does Scripture say about the nature of his coming and his redemptive ministry? We want to talk about that.

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And then, of course, we're going to engage with all the chestnut verses that are often brought. He died for our sins, but not only for our sins alone, but also for the sins of the whole world, things like that.

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We're going to deal with that. And if you, I wanted to say this as a loving challenge to you, if you think those verses are a problem for Calvinism, you may be new to this discussion.

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And so I don't mean that as an insult. I mean that as an encouraging nudge. Trust me, it's been dealt with and dealt with exegetically.

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And I would challenge you with, I'm confident those verses aren't saying what you think they're saying.

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And so we want to go beyond proof texting, and we want to get to the meat, the subject, what's behind it all.

18:58

So we are talking about limited atonement today. Again, welcome everybody. There's sort of a little mini introduction.

19:04

I want to say also, I am so thankful. You guys have heard me saying for the last five months or so, you've heard me talking about what

19:12

I've been doing myself personally. I'm 45 years old now. I turned 46 this month.

19:18

I just had my 25th wedding anniversary. Got five grandkids, seven children. And I have in my house right now,

19:24

I have two babies, twins, girls. They were preemies, and I've also got a four -year -old little boy.

19:31

So I'm starting Durban 2 .0. My other kids are basically grown up, married, out of the house, or getting out of the house.

19:37

And so now I'm starting over again. And so I've been trying to focus a lot on my own physical well -being and my health so that I can be there for my

19:44

Durban 2 .0 children. And so with that, I'm trying to make sure I stay healthy, exercise.

19:51

I train in martial arts. I'm also trying to be very, very mindful of, like, what kind of fuel

19:57

I'm putting into my body, taking care of my body, not putting a lot of garbage into my body. And I specifically also have been doing

20:04

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21:32

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21:42

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21:56

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22:04

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22:11

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APOLOGIA, and you're good to go. So now entering into this, you know, okay.

23:04

So we have to always say like we need to be very careful in proof texting, right?

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Like there's a danger to proof texting. And that is like, well, I don't believe that because here's this one line over here in the

23:17

Bible somewhere. And like there's no context. There's always the what about. Yeah. About this.

23:22

Yeah. And every subject, every topic is like that. You could be talking about the Trinity, right?

23:28

And people will muster up and muster together proof texts against the Trinity, right?

23:33

And so it happens in everything. It doesn't happen just here in the subject of Calvinism and the grace of God and salvation and the atonement.

23:40

It really is – it's a feature. It's a feature in discussion and debate for proof texting to take place.

23:47

However, you can't avoid having to give a text for proof. And so,

23:53

I mean, everyone in some sense proof texts. You're giving, oh, here's my proof of where the truth is. But generally, when we say proof texting, what we mean is that you're taking a text out of context.

24:04

There's no background, no what's before, what's below, what's the context, who was it written to, and you're just sort of ripping it out and just throwing it on the table like, well, that says something that disproves your entire system.

24:14

We need to be very careful of that. I want to just say this. That was what led to my confusion early on as a believer in this discussion about Calvinism because I – and I said this in the early episodes –

24:27

I said that when I first became a believer, my first thing was John, the Gospel of John, every day over and over and over.

24:33

I just devoured that book over and over and over and over again. And so I understood these things, and I was basically there reading

24:40

John. Because you had been steeped in so much of it. I just saw it, right? It's all there. But the problem was is that I started going to church, and I'd never been – church wasn't my –

24:50

I wasn't raised in church. And so I started going to church. And then in church, you start to adopt traditions, the traditions of those in your community around you.

24:56

You start hearing about free will and things like this. And so I sort of had this – what

25:02

I saw in the text, and I did believe about the sovereignty of God, the grace of God, and salvation, Christ never losing us, laying his life down for the sheep, you're not of my sheep, all that.

25:12

But I also had like, well, there's free will, and then he died for the sins of the whole world, and that means each and every individual person.

25:19

And so I had this conflict. And the conflict actually within me was not so much conflict in the text.

25:26

It was a conflict of the traditions and verses that I had memorized. I memorized those Chestnut verses too.

25:33

And I was just – so I was just in this kind of war in my mind of like, well, I know the text says this, but I think this is true.

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And so there was the conflict, and it wasn't until I spent a long period of time just trying to really dig into the text.

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What does the text say? What's the text say? And really being willing to challenge my own traditions, like actually being willing to go to those

25:53

Chestnut verses against the doctrines of grace and examine them and say, well, are they really saying that?

25:59

Is that the context? Is that saying what I've said it means? Yeah. And that's where I began to finally say, no, there's a consistency here in Scripture that I just can't avoid.

26:12

Yeah. Yeah. And letting the Bible define the proper categories by which we understand this.

26:18

Does the Bible teach a free will as in the philosophical concept of free will?

26:24

No. There's agency that all of us have according to our fallen nature. But I think so much of this is just based on the evangelical air that we've breathed.

26:34

Like we grow up in the water of talk about free will, not knowing that we're wet, right?

26:39

Because we've just been surrounded by it. But allowing ourselves to even be corrected by the text itself,

26:45

I think is the main issue that you're getting at. Yeah. And this is where we can, I think, start to dive right in.

26:51

There were things that started to be impressed upon me and where I started to be challenged, where I was like, wait a minute,

27:00

I know that verse. I've read it a thousand times. But wait a second, I don't really believe that. Like the verse says what it says, but I'm not allowing that to actually have its proper implications.

27:13

Like I'm seeing it, I'm affirming it, but I've got something over here that's just resisting and pushing it down, right? Yeah. It's just resisting.

27:19

It's simple things that we all know. Like a verse as simple as Matthew 121, the angel talking about Jesus with Joseph.

27:28

What he's going to come to do. Don't worry, Joseph. This is really by the agency of the Holy Spirit. And then here's what's going to happen.

27:34

She's going to give birth to a son. And then it says, and she'll bring forth a son, Matthew 121, and you shall call his name

27:41

Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.

27:47

Yeah. He will save his people from their sins. Unless you think the angel can lie or be wrong here,

27:54

I think he's bringing an inspired word from God, a prophecy. Yeah. The certain nature of Christ's work.

28:00

Yeah. He actually accomplished, like the verse that we read at the very beginning, an eternal redemption.

28:06

Yeah. He secured it. It wasn't something that he made possible.

28:13

It was something that he accomplished. Can you fill that out for everybody? Because we've been saying that a lot.

28:19

Salvation and atonement, that's not making salvation possible, but something that is accomplished. It is definite.

28:24

I think actually I got this from you, and it really helped me to come to the bottom line of this.

28:31

What's at stake in either believing that this is what the Bible teaches or not?

28:37

As a believer, can you actually say that Jesus died for me? Yeah. I think if you want to personalize it, that's the shortest distance between two points right there.

28:48

Or did his death not actually save anybody, but merely put the ball in the sinner's court to either accept it or reject it?

28:56

Yeah. That is the issue, properly defined. Yeah. Did Jesus accomplish your salvation?

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Can you say, yes, he died for me. It's certain he accomplished this. Or did he merely do something as a provision for men to then either decide yes or no and reject that?

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And by implication, what is the view of the cross? What was the purpose of the cross?

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And could it, if it was left up to the will of mankind, thwarted the intention of God in salvation?

29:30

Could it have left a door open for everyone to reject it? Yeah. And if that's the case, then we need to slow down and examine our view of the atonement.

29:39

That's the issue. It's not a matter of just random proof texts. What does the Bible say about the work of Christ and the atonement itself?

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What does it actually accomplish according to scripture? That's the real issue. Examining the redemption, the atonement of Christ, what did he say was being accomplished?

29:56

Yeah. And you bring up, I think, and I'm glad that that was something that impacted you because that was the thing that impacted me the most, is when you talk about the atonement, are you talking about it in general terms or in particular terms?

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And what we mean by that is general, did Jesus die a death to make salvation possible, like generally for people, for a general audience or general people, or does

30:20

Jesus die for a particular people? So when we talk about substitutionary atonement, that he is the substitute for his people.

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That he actually bore their sin. That's the key issue. And a lot of people don't understand that. In this issue of the atonement, this debate over the atonement, that's where it lands.

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And you really have to open it up there. Like does Jesus, according to scripture, well, okay, when

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Paul actually makes this, when he personalizes the atonement in his letter about himself, he loved me and gave himself for me.

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Precious verse to us. Yeah, yeah. Very precious. And that's where Paul breaks from his general, where he normally talks about the body of Christ, the elect, and he's talking about God's chosen, and he'll speak in the general category for the church.

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He actually personalizes it there, who loved me and gave himself for me.

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Now, if you believe that about the atonement, then you are making the atonement personal and not general.

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And it's important because if Jesus, if you can say, yeah, it's substitutionary atonement.

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Now, by the way, not everyone believes in substitutionary atonement. And that's a problem. We could do a whole show on that.

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But if you believe that the atonement of Christ was substitutionary, in a sense, and by the way, when

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I say not believing in substitutionary, I mean in like penal substitutionary atonement. That he took your punishment.

31:48

That he took punishment. That he gives you his perfect righteousness. That the father was actually pouring out on Jesus.

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Yes, the wrath. The justice wrath due to the sinner. Yes. So if you want to say like, look.

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Did he pay? Yeah, I believe that Jesus on that cross knew my name and was dying for me in particular.

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It was my sins being laid on the sun on that tree. If you believe that, then

32:15

I, you know, I think that biblically speaking and logically speaking, you kind of have to go to particular redemption, limited atonement.

32:23

Yeah. Because you must believe that if you are a recipient of that redemption, that that is a work that cannot be undone.

32:31

Right. And that was what makes it secure. And so when we talk about limited, the natural inclination is to be repelled.

32:42

Everybody limits the atonement. Yeah. It's not just a, it's an unfortunate wording because we're talking about a secure redemption, a definite atonement.

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But when we say limiting, we from our side would refer to the fact that it is a quantitative limiting, not a qualitative one.

33:03

Yeah. How many? Right. Not how worthy. Right. Because we believe what the Bible says in terms of what the redemption is that Christ accomplishes, that he doesn't lose those whom he saves, that if what the

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Bible says is true, that the punishment for our sins was placed on Jesus, there's nothing left to be paid. Right.

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For our sins. Yeah. And therefore that's why we will be with God. Yeah. That's why we have peace with God and we won't be in hell.

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Right. So if you believe penal substitutionary atonement, that Jesus is actually taking the punishment payment for the sins of his people, that he knew your name and was dying for me.

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If you can say he loved me and he gave himself for me. Yeah. He was thinking about you.

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Right. When he was dying. Right. If you believe that, then you're getting your way towards a Calvinistic perspective of the atonement itself.

33:47

Right. Because it's very personal and Jesus is accomplishing redemption there. And so it's very important.

33:53

You brought up a good point in terms of the name limited atonement. We're talking about who, right?

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And we're not saying that it is somehow not efficacious. Who's it for? Right. Like a drop of Jesus' blood could have saved every sinner.

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Right. That's not what we're saying. That more needed to be done to save more. We're saying it was very personal. It was intimate.

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It was for a particular people. It was like Jesus says in John 10 where he says, I know my sheep.

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Yes. And they know me. I give them eternal life. And he says that he lays his life down for the sheep.

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Now in that same context in John chapter 10 where he's saying all of that, I know them. They know me. They will follow me.

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And he says, he says, I have other sheep which are not of this fold. In other words, not just Jews. And he says, and they will also come.

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Right. And then he joined together under one family, one house. Exactly. But then he goes on in that very same discourse.

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It goes right on into now he's talking to people who don't believe. Right. And he says to them right after the discourse in John where he's talking about,

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I'm the good shepherd, lays his life down for the sheep, not like the other ones. Right. And then he says, after he says he knows who they are and they know him, he says to the

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Jews who don't believe, he says, you don't believe because you are not of my sheep.

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Well, wait a second. In the same context here he says he knows who his sheep are, and he lays his life down for them.

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And he says there's this other category over here of people who are not of his sheep. Now look, if you don't like the conversation that there are people that God's chosen over here to be his sheep, to lay his life down for them, you don't like the idea that there's other people over here that are not sheep, well, then

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I'd say you're not really familiar with what Scripture says about how this all is going to play out in the end.

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He says that he will separate the sheep from the goats. And so in Scripture, I'm sorry if you want to say let the

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Bible speak, let the revelation of God be the reference point, let it do the talking, let it correct me.

35:49

Scripture clearly, plainly, without question says there are sheep and there are goats, and there will be a separation, and there is a real heaven, and there is a real hell, and there is a place of eternal damnation.

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And Jesus says it's the goats that go there. So the question you have to ask in terms of the atonement, because Jesus made the claim,

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I lay my life down for the sheep, is did he lay his life down for the goats that he will separate from his sheep and cast into the lake of fire?

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And I don't believe you can make any sense of that biblically with the atonement and the nature of the atonement.

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And so you can get into other things, too, because it does attach. We're going to do more here on the atonement and what actually the

36:27

Bible teaches. But when you talk about things like even the book of life, your name's written in the book of life, chosen by God before the foundation of the world.

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John 6, because you've already done these things. John 6 where he says, I've come down from heaven not to do my will, but the will of him who has sent me.

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And this is the will of him who has sent me that of all that he has given to me, I should lose nothing but raise it up at the last day.

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And he says, no man can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up.

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Jesus knew, this is, by the way, it's John. It's like the same John 10 of knowing his sheep, laying his life down for the sheep.

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You don't believe because you're not my sheep. Jesus clearly taught there is a people given to him by the father that he will raise up.

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They cannot be lost, John 10. Right after he says to those people, you don't believe because you're not of my sheep, he says, what about his sheep?

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He says, they're in his hand. They hear his voice. They hear his voice. He knows them. He knows them. It's an eternal life. And he says, they're in my hand, and nothing can snatch them from my hand.

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They're in my father's hand, and nothing can snatch them from my father's hand. I like that. They're in my father's hand.

37:32

That's some attitude. I'm going fast. I got the NAD and the alpha brain working right now. All of a sudden,

37:39

God spoke Kentucky there for a minute. Yeah. So the point here, and again, this is just laying some foundations biblically, in terms of whole biblical context, what's the story of redemption?

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It's important for us to recognize that Scripture clearly, plainly teaches that this atonement is powerful, perfect, particular.

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I mean, listen to the words, call him Jesus. That's got to be his name, right?

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Let his name say what he's about. He's the one who saves. Yeah, he always saves. Right, and then it says, for he will, not might, not hopefully, he will save, he will save his people from their sins.

38:24

And then, okay, and let's just lay this down, because it's a good thing to put before you as you think about the whole thing. It's John Owen's treatment of this.

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By the way, if you haven't read. You were going to bring John Owen to this. Yeah, if you haven't read The Death of Death and The Death of Christ, sell your shirt and shoes.

38:38

What a title. And go get the book. What a title. I will tell you right now, I'm not the only one that'll say you have to take a few moments getting used to John Owen.

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His language. Because his mind is like next level, and every three sentences is a devastation, and you don't want to miss that stuff, so take your time going through John Owen, because it is just,

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I will never have a mind like John Owen, and I'm okay with that. God gave him that gift, and so praise the

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Lord for it. But John Owen goes through this treatment of the atonement itself and what was accomplished, and it's the treatment of John Owen that really clearly communicates on this point, on this point of the atonement, if you think the atonement was this general thing to make everybody savable, and that Jesus died for the sins of every single person who ever lived, sort of a thing, well, you're going to have to get into universalism, right?

39:37

You just logically, biblically, theologically have to. Well, follow it.

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If he paid for their sins, everyone's sins, then why is anyone in hell?

39:49

Right. Why will that be an eternal destination? And I'm sorry, there's just no way to overcome

39:54

John Owen's treatment of this discussion. Can I read that? I actually have it. Do you have it? I have that section pulled up from the book, actually, because I don't really think there's a better way to phrase it.

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Yeah, and again, this is laying a foundation in terms of how do you think about the atonement, because as you get into the sections of Scripture about the atonement, they say what they say.

40:11

Right. I'm not saying this is my authority. No. I'm saying it's a very effective way to express the truth. The texts say what they say.

40:17

My dealing with this is because it's a dynamite moment of blowing apart a tradition where you have this biblical view of the atonement, you know what the

40:24

Bible says about it, but you've got this tradition just gnawing at it, and Owen blows it up, and you go, oh,

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I actually can accept those texts as they are. He's so glad. So the way he expresses it, he says, the

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Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for either, number one, all the sins of all men, number two, all the sins of some men, or number three, some of the sins of all men, in which case it may be said, if the last be true, so the sum of the sins of all men, then all men have some sins to answer for, and so none are saved.

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That's right. Two, if the second be true, which is the Calvinist perspective, then

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Christ in their stead suffered for all the sins of the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.

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Number three, but if the first is the case, that was He died for all the sins of all men, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?

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You answer, because of unbelief. I ask, is this unbelief a sin or is it not?

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If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which

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He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins. Now, just to kind of bring a little bit of context there, that's usually one of the things that you hear from people is if Christ died for their sins, then why did they end up in hell?

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Well, because of their unbelief. Yeah. And then we have to ask the necessary question that comes next, is unbelief a sin?

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Read the book of Hebrews. Why were the people of God destroyed? Because they did not join their hearts, right?

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That their hearts weren't joined by faith to the promises. That's how the text words it. In other words, unbelief.

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Yeah. Unbelief in scripture is clearly a sin. So did Christ die for the sin of unbelief?

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If you say He died for all the sins of all men, then He died for the sins of unbelief, which is why, of course, in history, when you've seen particular denominations or churches go off into universalism, it is on the basis of that belief many times, that belief that, well,

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Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, all their sins, everything's been paid for. And so people go off into universalism on the basis of a really faulty view of the atonement.

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If He died for the sins of all people, all the sins of all people, then that's a universal atonement.

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That's universal redemption. And that is universalism. Everybody is saved. Yeah, if He died for their sins, what are they paying for?

43:01

Right. Right, so I think Owen's treatment of that is put in terms of he's uncovering an inconsistency in our thinking about what

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Jesus actually accomplishes in the atonement. Now, the thing is you'll have people who are not

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Reformed in the perspective of soteriology in their view here. They'll have some mixed stuff. They'll have, however, an inescapable attachment to what the

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Bible says about the atonement of Jesus. So they know it and what Jesus actually accomplishes.

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They know what's taking place on that cross for them. Yeah. But yet this tradition over here, again, just gnaws at it, right?

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And so they have to sort of abandon what they know to be true about the atonement to hold onto this and secure this tradition over here of like, but it was for everybody, all time, all their sins.

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And you have to press on that. Okay, is unbelief a sin? Well, He died for that too. So that's paid for.

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Also, you have to push what you know about the atonement into the realm of the discussion, okay?

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If Jesus paid for the sins of all people, right?

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And even, well, watch, watch. Even if you say, okay, but it's just not joined together with their belief, all right?

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That's the problem. But their sins were still paid for. Their sins were still paid for. But this is not joined with belief.

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So they suffer in hell for all eternity for sins that Jesus already died for. So for what are they being punished?

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Well, for unbelief, right? But now they're paying for their life of sin and rebellion that Jesus also paid for.

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And so there's a double penalty. How many payments? There's a double penalty. I thought God was just.

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So if in scripture, That's huge. If in scripture, God's justice comes and then justice is paid, there's a penalty and justice is satisfied, okay?

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In the place of Christ where He says it is finished and the justice of God is satisfied there, to telestai, it's done, it's over.

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Wrath appeased. Exactly. If it's finished, then for what are they being punished?

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For all eternity, never ending, everlasting fire and torments.

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For what are they being punished when the Son of God died to pay for those sins?

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So the Father is punishing two people for the sins of the one person? How do we get that from scripture and God's standards of justice?

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Because I can tell you right now, if you know the law of God, that is not permissible in God's law. You do not punish.

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This is good because it calls the character of God into question. That's right. You do not punish two people for the sins of the one person.

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You don't do that. And so if Jesus accomplished redemption on their behalf and paid for all of their sins, for what are they suffering in hell?

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And you can't just go, well, for their unbelief. That's not what scripture says because Jesus, you know,

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He actually talks about people giving an account for every idle word. Now, if those people are being held accountable for every idle word, if that is something that's gonna be brought to their attention on that day of judgment, how's that gonna happen when

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Jesus already took care of that every idle word? And so, you know, we could do this for days, but we need to uncover the traditions we're holding that are actually militating against what we know the scriptures teach about the atonement.

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But just to talk about a little bit more in terms of what we know to be true. Matthew 121,

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I said, He will save His people from their sins. That's particular. That's limited.

46:40

That's definite. Yeah, and just because we hold a definite view of the atonement, I think some people unnecessarily make the leap from that point to say, well, then you only believe that this many people are gonna make it into the kingdom of heaven.

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But the book of Revelation records an innumerable multitude worshiping before the throne of God. Yeah, and the promise to Abraham was that it's like the stars of heaven and it's like the sand of the sea.

47:07

Right. That's innumerable. Right, and also in Revelation, right? And that two chapters before, it talks about worthy are you our

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Lord and God, you know, you made payment, you accomplished this ransom, this redemption for people of every tribe, tongue, language, and nation.

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Out of. Out of. You ransomed them out of. Out of every tribe, tongue, people, and nation.

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And this is not a fringe group. This is not a small number of people.

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This is a multitude. It's ready? The world. Yes, Jew, Gentile.

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Yes, every tribe, tongue, people, and nation. And that's a whet your appetite. Yeah, everyone that God has appointed to eternal life.

47:46

Yeah, so when we say the world, he's the savior of the world, we mean it in the way the Bible talks about it.

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Jew, Gentile, every tribe, tongue, people, and nation. But you're exactly right. He purchased us out of every tribe, tongue, people, and nation.

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That is God so loving the world. Yeah. And so we absolutely affirm that. But we affirm it in its biblical categories, in its kingdom of God categories, of what was supposed to take place with all the nations returning to God and drawn up to God's mountain.

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Every tribe, tongue, people, and language, that's what they meant, that they're

48:22

Jews. They knew what that story was. The world, it's Jews and Gentiles. Yes, God's salvation coming to the ends of the earth.

48:28

It's coming to the ends of the earth. We're not talking about every individual person. And people are like, oh, that's not fair. I don't think that's

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God having a special love for one person. And then others, God says the one who sins, his soul hates.

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So God does hate, and Scripture does clearly teach. We showed that there are reprobates, and there are categories in Scripture of people that God has created for his own purposes of judgment.

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And there's no way out of that. That's what the Bible teaches. And God has a love for his people, a particular covenantal love that he does not have for others.

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Right. In the same way that we have wives that we love and have a love for that we do not have for other people.

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Yeah, I love your wife, Taryn. I love her. She's amazing. But I don't love her like I love candy.

49:15

Right. Right? Yes. Special love, particular love, and then love. And so we would say

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God is loving to every single one of his creatures. He acts in love towards them every day, especially that he does not wipe them off the face of the earth from their sin.

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Sending rain on the just and the unjust. And the just and the unjust. But he has a special salvific love for his people.

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And you know, listen, what's interesting here is that if you pull yourself out of the debate between Arminianism and Calvinism or whatever, pull yourself out of it and just stop for a second and go, oh, no,

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I already do believe this. Because in particular, like today, dispensational premillennialists, who many of them are

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Arminian, not all of them, but many of them are, they'll sort of recoil at the doctors of grace and this special love and chosen and just them.

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And you go, what do you believe about Israel? What was that? You believed about Israel again? They are God's chosen people.

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And I chose you not because you are more numerous or it's because I love you.

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I loved you. I chose you because of my love for you. I chose you out of all the nations of the earth. And so we see it.

50:18

The election of God is clearly there. But there's more. Let's just build upon this. Well, on that point.

50:24

Let me just real fast. Oh, go ahead. Go ahead. Paul's bringing that home in the premier verse on marriage in Ephesians 5.

50:30

Husbands, love your wives like Christ loved the church and gave himself for her.

50:36

Her. The bride. The bride. The bride of Christ. Yep. The love that husbands are to emulate is the kind of covenantal, sacrificial love that Jesus, sacrificial love, right?

50:47

That he laid down his life for his people, right? His church. That's right. And again, this is good we're talking about this because you can just go for days.

50:56

I just had to build on that. No, you go for days with this. It's exactly right. Now feel free. So next one. And again, this is, again, in context,

51:03

I'm making the point here that all of us are familiar with these verses. The tension is though when our tradition comes into conflict with it because we can't actually affirm what it says.

51:14

Like just let it be the text. Let it say what it says. Yeah. And I'm saying this in context.

51:20

We know what these verses are in context. If you don't know, go read it. There's no question here. But like there's a tension when our tradition just doesn't let it be what it is.

51:28

Matthew 20, 28, just as the son of man did not come to be served but to serve and to give his life a ransom for many.

51:38

Now, by the way, that's not just said in Matthew about that. It's also said in the context of the

51:45

Lord's table. The blood of his covenants, new covenant is blood poured out for many for the remission of sins.

51:53

And so Matthew 26, 28 is where that's at. For this is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

52:02

John 10, we've done this, but just to make sure I quote the verse here, verse 11 and 15. It says,

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I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives his life for the sheep. As the father knows me, even so I know the father and lay down my life for the sheep.

52:18

That is a clear knowledge of who the sheep are and this intimate connection between father, son, obviously spirit and the people of God for whom

52:29

Christ is dying. It says in Acts 13, 48, just is one of my favorites actually in terms of like that definite redemption and that triune

52:41

God of scripture accomplishing this perfect plan, father, son, and Holy Spirit. Acts 13, 48, now when the

52:47

Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

52:55

Acts 20, 28, therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock among which the

53:01

Holy Spirit has made you overseers to shepherd the church of God, which he purchased with his own blood.

53:08

Yeah, that's a big one. Gotta look at the object, right? Who's been purchased? Yeah, he bought them, purchased them.

53:16

Yeah. I mean, that whole concept of redemption that, listen, do a study on New Testament, Greek usage of redemption and what that meant in their historical context in terms of purchase and taking something out of not just slavery, but in the context of a purchase and that transaction being complete, that redemption that Jesus accomplishes.

53:41

It's important for us to understand what the Bible is saying there, but when we talk about being purchased, Jesus paid the price. We believe it is finished.

53:48

If you believe it's finished, if you believe he paid the price, then what did it actually accomplish? Are we really saying that he purchased somebody with his own blood, died for their sins completely, laid his life down for them, their sins are in God's eyes already dealt with?

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Are we really saying that he can do all of that and yet they will be separated from God for all eternity in hell?

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Do we really believe that that's what the Bible teaches about the work of Jesus, that that's actually how this happens?

54:17

Romans 8, 32 through 34. Again, these are what we already all know. He who did not spare his own son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

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Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Who is he who condemns?

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It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen and who is even at the right hand of God who makes intercession for us.

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That, by the way, is also the point made in the book of Hebrews about the atonement, the work of Christ.

54:46

Just consider just that text that we're all very familiar with. If you've read Romans, you know this, you've heard it.

54:52

He's making the point in a legal context. Now we say this a lot for justification.

54:58

Judicial. It's judicial. Clearly it's courtroom language. It's clearly that because you have God, condemnation, justification.

55:06

God the judge, condemnation, justification. Charges being brought against God's elect. So the point that Paul makes there is he says, who shall bring any charge against God's elect?

55:15

Well, where are those charges generally brought? We're talking about accusations, legal context, courtroom. It is

55:20

God who justifies, that is, declares righteous. Who is he who condemns? It is Christ. Now, here we go.

55:26

Ready? Here's a discussion. Did Jesus die for people's sins, and yet they'll still be condemned? Right?

55:32

Now, let that hang there for a minute. Did Jesus die for people's sins, and yet they will still themselves be condemned?

55:41

Well, here's Paul's point about Jesus and what he accomplishes. Who is he who condemns?

55:49

And now he's going to refute it. It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.

56:00

His point is this is the death of Christ. How are you possibly going to be condemned?

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If Jesus died for you and is interceding for you, how will you ever be condemned?

56:13

Do you see the point? And so if you have a general view of the atonement and you believe that Jesus died for people and that he is interceding for them with that sacrifice, if you believe that, then

56:27

Paul's point is, well, then you can't be condemned. You can't be condemned because that is the security of the believer in the atonement of Christ.

56:35

You will not be condemned with the death of Christ and his intercession for you. It can't happen.

56:42

The connection between the redemption and the intercession. Yeah. You have already been in John 10.

56:50

What about John 17, where Jesus is talking about how he's praying, right?

56:56

It's his high priestly prayer for his followers. He prays that they would not be taken out of the world, but that they would be protected from the evil one.

57:05

And he says that he's praying for them. I'm not praying for the world, but for those whom you've given me, for they are yours.

57:13

So tracing that. Say that one more time for everyone in the back. Yeah. And it's John 17, nine.

57:18

I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.

57:26

So there is that same audience in view here, right? John six, John eight, John 10,

57:31

John 17, right? We've already, we're following John's story here about the redemption of Christ for his people.

57:38

And that redemption is connected to the intercessory work of Jesus as their representative, as their priest, the one whose mediation in heaven, according to the book of Hebrews, never fails on their behalf.

57:49

He appears eternally to represent them as their great high priest, to make sure that the work of that redemption stays in place, that it's secure, and that it's not going anywhere, which is what

58:00

Romans 8, 32 was about. The reason you can be secure is because there's a redeemer in heaven who appears there on your behalf.

58:08

That's how you know that you can be secure in what Christ has done for you, because he's there interceding for you.

58:13

Question, will the intercession of Christ fail? Will Jesus, will the

58:19

Father not answer Christ's prayer to preserve you from falling away, to preserve you from losing your salvation, right?

58:28

Is it even a possibility? Is it an option? This is not to the negation of calls to faithfulness, calls to obedience, the warning passages in Scripture that we have about not turning away from God and all those things.

58:41

Yeah, given to a general audience and congregation. They're very real. Very real. And they serve a purpose of making it so that the true believer's hearts respond accordingly and we persevere and press on, albeit in God's power.

58:53

But the connection here between redemption and intercession is a big one.

58:58

Yes. Because it's all the work of Christ from beginning to end. Right. And you, again, you're all familiar, probably, if you've been in this discussion for a long time, about what the

59:12

Bible says about Christ and what He came to accomplish, His death for sinners, His suffering for sins.

59:19

This is really important because, look, it is true in history. You know, some of this is just like, it's like, well, guys, like, this is like, it's full -orbed.

59:27

And so, like, you have, like, the Christ as victor view of the atonement. You've got differing views of the atonement.

59:32

You'll see it's sections of history and parts of the world in history.

59:40

And, you know, what's funny to some of us is like, well, it's just this way. It's like, no, there's elements of truth to that, for sure, but it's not just that.

59:48

But it's, this is key. If you're gonna say that this is a substitutionary atonement, that it is actually penal, that there is punishment here, that Jesus is receiving the penalty due to us in His own body, if you believe that, well, then you have to consider, what are the implications?

01:00:04

Like, we've already had a Matthew 21, 21, again, He will save His people from their sins.

01:00:10

I want to let that hang. I would keep saying that because we have to say, like, do I really believe it?

01:00:15

That's a big one. The fulfillment of Isaiah. Yeah. Isaiah 53. That's right. The suffering servant that bears the sins of His people, who justifies the many, bears their iniquities.

01:00:25

Justifies the many. Right. You know, Luke 19, 10, for the

01:00:30

Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost. Second Corinthians 5, 21, for He made

01:00:36

Him who knew no sin to be sin for us or on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him, the purposes of God in Christ's suffering and His being crucified,

01:00:48

His atonement. First Peter 3, 18, for Christ also suffered once four sins, for the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh and made alive by the

01:00:59

Spirit, that He might bring us to God. Why did He do it? The just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God. Does He fail?

01:01:06

Does He suffer the just for the unjust and then fail? No. Galatians 1, 3 through 4, grace to you and peace from God the

01:01:13

Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age according to the will of our

01:01:20

God and Father. First Timothy 1, 15, this is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom

01:01:30

I am chief. This is what He came to do. This is Jesus' purpose in the atonement. This is the point being made here of when we talk about atonement and sacrifice and substitution, we have to draw out the implications because Scripture is clear on it.

01:01:43

This is why He came, so He could save the lost, gave Himself, the just for the unjust. This is someone coming as a substitute and we have to ask the question, what does it actually accomplish?

01:01:53

Titus 2, 14, Jesus who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

01:02:06

You could go for days on this, but you get the point. Do we really believe it or do we have a tradition that's creating a tension between us and the text that's before us?

01:02:19

Because again, we all believe these things as Christians. You have them there, you pass the exam. Yeah, He did that for me, just for the unjust.

01:02:25

That's why He came, that's what He did. But does He actually accomplish it? And that's why like we've said, we prefer the terminology of like definite atonement, definite redemption or particular redemption, because it really aims more at the point of substitutionary atonement.

01:02:41

Yeah. That's what we're saying. Limited atonement is just substitutionary atonement in its biblical categories and logical conclusion.

01:02:49

That's what we're saying. Did you want to... Actually, let me do this, because I know that the questions are being asked right now.

01:02:55

It's okay that they are. They need to be asked. Here is... Again, we're going to do an entire show dealing with the objections to the doctrines of grace and Calvinism.

01:03:10

We'll go through it point by point, all the chestnut verses, we'll do it exegetically, we're going to do all that. But just to watch your appetite, because I know that it's like lingering, like what about all these verses about the whole world and the whole world and all this stuff?

01:03:20

So I'll let Dr. MacArthur just give you about a two -minute answer, just a punch. Well, we know

01:03:26

He's the Savior of the world, because there's only one Savior for the world. The world has only one Savior. But we also know the atonement is limited.

01:03:33

We all know that, right? The atonement is limited because people go to hell. Jesus said in the

01:03:38

Sermon on the Mount, many will say to Me, Lord, Lord, and I will say to them, depart from Me, you workers of iniquity,

01:03:43

I never knew you. Jesus talked more about hell than He did about heaven. We know that hell is a reality and we know people go there and perish forever.

01:03:52

So we all believe in a limited atonement, right? Not everybody is going to be saved. You either believe in a limited atonement or you believe in a universal atonement and if you believe in a universal atonement, to be logically consistent, then there's no hell and no one will be in hell.

01:04:06

Everyone will be in heaven. If you're going to affirm an unlimited atonement, then you really are going to end up as a universalist, because if He actually died for the whole world, then the whole world is saved.

01:04:20

So we can't go there because there is a hell and it's full of people, in fact, most people.

01:04:27

So the atonement is limited. Then the question is, who limits it? Do we limit it or does

01:04:34

God limit it? And the answer to that question biblically is crystal clear. God limited it. He limited it to the elect.

01:04:42

Either God determined whom He would save and take to glory or God just threw atonement out there as some nebulous option and hoped some people would grab hold of it and become a part of His redeeming purpose.

01:04:55

The Bible does not allow for that. So you just need to remind yourself you believe in a limited atonement.

01:05:02

Now you ask the question, are men sovereign or is God sovereign? If God is sovereign, then

01:05:07

He limited it. There you go. Yeah. Everybody believes in a limited atonement.

01:05:15

It's either limited in its scope, who it's for, or in its power to save.

01:05:22

Right. And you can always trust Brother MacArthur to condense it all and get it all neatly into two minutes.

01:05:32

In a very straightforward manner. Yes, very much. And what we're going to do here actually is continue this discussion over at Apologia Studios for the after show.

01:05:44

We're going to do more as we continue this series. You're going to have to do more, talk about more, review stuff.

01:05:50

And just wanted to, before we end the show today, go through a few of the super chats. Thank you everybody in the comments.

01:05:56

Thank you for being here today. Encourage you guys to make sure you subscribe. So if you're not subscribed yet to Apologia Studios, subscribe, hit the bell, do all the things so you can catch all of the content as it comes up.

01:06:10

And want to thank Mark Messer. Thank you so much. Thank you brothers for your faithfulness, for what it's worth. God's providence and August life really helped my wife come to a desire to open up to the

01:06:20

Holy Spirit. Thank you. My son Augustine's story of God healing him from spina bifida. Praise the

01:06:25

Lord for that. Is pre -tribulation dispensationalism theology a good reason to leave a church that practices it?

01:06:34

I recently came to understand that is what my church teaches. Thank you. That's a tough question to answer without knowing all the details of your current circumstances, sort of where you live, and sort of where you're at in the context of your church.

01:06:47

You know, our church, we are covenantal. We are post -millennial. But we have brothers and sisters who are faithful members of our body who are not post -millennial in their perspective.

01:06:58

We've got Presbyterians, people with deep Presbyterian convictions as members of our church.

01:07:04

We glory in God in that, that kind of fundamental unity and essential unity. We even have people with Presbyterian convictions who are deacons at our church.

01:07:12

They are in leadership positions, but they can't ever be teaching elders because we have a doctrinal standard at Apologia Church what's going to come forth.

01:07:20

So you can maintain essential unity with those differences. You just don't want to create factions, and you don't want to split a church, and that sort of a thing.

01:07:30

So I would say, is it possible to just be a part of a solid pre -tribulational, dispensational church?

01:07:36

As someone who doesn't agree with it, yeah, it's very possible. Like, for example, if you were going to Grace Community Church in California, Brother MacArthur, you know, if I was stuck in that area, didn't have any other options,

01:07:47

I would be a faithful member of Dr. MacArthur's church and not agree with those points. So I would say, it's not necessarily a reason.

01:07:55

I'd say if the only really solid gospel preaching church, faithful church, that honors the word of God, is authoritative and final,

01:08:03

Trinitarian, justification by faith, alone in Christ, alone. If the only one that's accessible to you is pre -trib dispensational in that area,

01:08:10

I'd say go all in. Be a faithful member of that church. Serve. Preach the gospel. Lay your lives down for one another in that church.

01:08:17

However, if it was me, in the context of a community where there's lots of options of faithful Bible churches, reformed church, covenantal, preach the gospel, faithful, and then, you know,

01:08:33

I've got another choice over here, and it's just getting a little heavy on the pre -trib dispy stuff, and almost in a destructive sense of dispensationalism and pre -trib stuff, where it's like abandon the culture, you know, it's all going to hell anyways,

01:08:45

I would be like, probably better off bringing my family over here, because I don't want to have to every Sunday after the service correct the pastor's sermon in the car ride home.

01:08:54

That's just not good for your kids. Right? It's not good for your own, I mean, walk with the Lord, too.

01:08:59

Just constantly having disagreements. Yeah. And talking to yourself about it, and, oh, he did this with this verse.

01:09:05

Right. Could be unhealthy. Yeah. It just kind of depends on the context. I don't want to give you just sort of like a flat peanut butter answer.

01:09:12

It just kind of depends. Like, if you find yourself in a situation, like I said, where, you know, basically every

01:09:17

Lord's Day after church, you are like with your family trying to correct the sermon, and it's just getting heavy and overwhelming, you know, you're just going to, you're going to create some animosity between,

01:09:26

I think, your family and the teaching coming from the pulpit that's just not going to be healthy. And so if you had the ability to go to a different church that was just a faithful church, and you didn't have to constantly deal with that, well then, yeah,

01:09:39

I think in that sense, you know, it might be a good opportunity to choose a different church. I think so. But again, you never want to leave a church like that causing an explosion, destruction.

01:09:49

You don't want to leave a church and just create a faction and, you know, try to create division.

01:09:54

God hates that. He abominates that kind of a thing. And so be careful how you leave a faithful church that you have some disagreements with, is what

01:10:05

I'm saying there. Be careful how you do that, because Christ, and look, here's one thing we can agree on. With all the differences that Christians have had throughout church history on some of these side issues, the one thing that we can say is true is that Christ commands unity.

01:10:17

Right? So we can all agree on that. He commands unity. He wants us to be unified. And so whatever disagreements we have on these tertiary issues or the adiophora, the one thing we can all agree with is that he wants the church to have a unity.

01:10:31

And so we can agree on that when you do that. Is that all we have there, Gabe, or is there more? I think there was one above that.

01:10:37

That's it. Oh, that was it. Okay, so I did, oh, yeah, okay. So next thing is I wanted to let everyone know, go to the store, apologiastudios .com.

01:10:46

Go to the store. Get yourself some pre -sip coffee. That is, I've heard amazing, amazing things about this coffee.

01:10:53

People really like it, and you can get it there. And there's a lot of new T -shirts and other things up at Apologia Store.

01:10:59

I'm seeing, like, Luke and Zach walking around the studio and stuff wearing these great shirts, and I'm like, where's mine?

01:11:04

Like, why is everyone getting those shirts but not me? I guess the host maybe doesn't get to wear those cool ones. Yeah, and then I want to point you to two more things, and this, one of them, look, if you're a homeschool family, you've got to get on this and get on it very, very soon considering the context of what's going on around us.

01:11:21

And it's Heritage, and the website, again, was, you had it up for me, I'm sorry. I'll grab it for you.

01:11:26

Yeah, make sure I don't get it wrong. It was heritagedefense .org

01:11:33

and use coupon code APOLOGIA to get your first month free. Heritagedefense .org.

01:11:40

Heritagedefense .org. What do you do if CPS shows up at your door, DCS shows up at your door?

01:11:46

What do you do as a homeschooling family where somebody makes a phone call with the fraudulent claim, false witness, about your family, about your kids, or you get in a situation where you're publicly speaking out against, say, some of the hot topic issues of the day in your social media, and someone calls the cops on you for hate speech, and they send an investigation into your home because you're engaged in hate speech, and whatever the case may be.

01:12:10

If that's a potential thing that can happen to any of us, what are you going to do when they show up at your door?

01:12:16

Well, the first thing I would do is say follow biblical standards, and you are not required to self -incriminate.

01:12:21

Say nothing, right? I don't answer questions, but you also grab the phone. You grab the phone.

01:12:27

You open it up. You dial the number, because you have a membership with them, and you say, talk to my attorney, and then you put your attorney right on the phone.

01:12:37

Use your please. Use your manners. And even when it's tyranny. And so you give them heritage, and you have a membership with them.

01:12:47

You can make a phone call. They're there to defend you guys. Bradley Pierce, one of our close friends, our constitutional attorney that writes most of our bills, he's with that organization, so maybe

01:12:56

Bradley would be on the phone. He'd be one of your attorneys. And so go to them, and then the last one is

01:13:01

Amtac Blades, with our boy Bill Rapier.

01:13:07

He's actually doing our man camp. He's in town right now. Legendary Navy SEAL, DevGrew Navy SEAL, DevGrew.

01:13:15

That's SEAL Team 6, development group. The man's a legend. If you don't know about it, there's a reason.

01:13:22

He's a legend. Bill Rapier doing our man camp. He's actually in town right now. Luke is driving him up to camp right now.

01:13:28

His blades are the very best. I have trained in knife fighting.

01:13:33

I have taught knife fighting for many, many, many years, and it's one of my favorite things to teach.

01:13:39

I'm also extraordinarily afraid of the blade because I know how much devastation it can do. I just love it, and there's been times where someone's like, hey, have this knife.

01:13:48

And because I've taught knife fighting, I look at the knife and I'm like, oh, thank you for that gift, and it's just not a good knife to use in a fight. Your hand can slip.

01:13:55

It's just a weird way the handle is in your hand. It can get wet. I know that's gross to think about.

01:14:02

It can get wet. Your hand slips off. But he's a Navy SEAL, and so he's developed his own blades, and so these things are hard to even get off your belt.

01:14:09

Someone can grab at it, try to pull it. You can flip around, fall around. It's gonna stay put where it's at.

01:14:14

It's really hard to actually get off of your belt or wherever you put it. I love that he did that, and it's in every way, it is just the perfect blade going out into the wilderness, hiking, hunting, whatever.

01:14:26

You can start a fire with it. Man hunting. Man, yeah. And it is an excellent, excellent, excellent self -defense blade.

01:14:34

It is the best, and you know it's the best because it's made by one of the most legendary Navy SEALs, Bill Rapier, DevGru Navy SEAL, SEAL Team 6.

01:14:42

Website for that, www .amtacblades .com slash Apologia, and use code Apologia in the checkout for 5 % off.

01:14:50

So if you're a dude that wants a blade for practical purposes and self -defense purposes, take it from me, if my opinion on this means anything as a master martial artist and world champion and person who's taught blades for many, many years, there's nothing better.

01:15:08

There's nothing better. It's just phenomenal. So go pick one up. Bill's amazing.

01:15:14

Godly man. Love him. I'm actually going to see him in a couple of hours. Thank you everybody for watching.

01:15:19

Go to www .endabortionnow .com. Please go to www .endabortionnow .com. Get your church signed up. Save some lives together with us.

01:15:24

Partner with us in this ministry. www .endabortionnow .com Also to go and give financially. 21 states is not easy, and it's not cheap.

01:15:34

Although we really run this on peanuts as a budget compared to the massive budgets of some of these major pro -life organizations.

01:15:43

But we do need your help to make our budget everyone. We didn't do the major funding drive we normally do at the end of the year. Mostly because I was in the hospital with preemies in the

01:15:52

NICU. But we do need your help. We have a lot happening. We're going to keep you guys updated.

01:15:57

Don't forget if you're in Iowa, meet me and Zach. We're going to be together next

01:16:02

Friday, February 9th. February 9th. In Des Moines. I know, what is it?

01:16:08

6 p .m., Calvary Chapel, Des Moines. 6 p .m.,

01:16:13

February the 9th. Next week in Des Moines. We'll be there, guys. We've got a bill in your state.

01:16:18

So if you know pastors in Iowa, send them to meet with us. If you are a pastor in Iowa, come meet with us.

01:16:24

If you're a Christian in Iowa that wants to be a part of this, we need your help. Come meet us there at Calvary Chapel in Des Moines.

01:16:30

Thank you, guys. We're going to go into the after show for just a couple minutes here, guys. So meet us at apologiastudios .com. We will see you over there.