Should Christians Ever Pray Imprecatory Prayers?

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But either that or, you know, Jesus is God, obviously. So so they're allowed to do it.

They're allowed to pray things like that. But then we're not. Warning, the following message may be offensive to some audiences.

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Welcome to Bible Bash, where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask.

We're your hosts, Harrison Kerrig and Pastor Tim Mullett. And today we'll seek to answer the age old question, should

Christians ever pray in precatory prayers? Now, this is a funny topic,

Tim, because, you know, I mean, not even maybe even a year and a half ago,

I'm not even sure that I knew what an imprecatory prayer even was.

I had never even heard of them before, which is which was, you know, mostly my own fault.

If I had just read through the Bible and really taken my

Bible study seriously, I probably would have figured out what they were. I mean, I think part of it is

I knew I knew there were, you know, in the Old Testament, especially there were certain parts of certain parts of the

Old Testament that seemed to be very, like, very, you know, at times, you know, graphic, obviously.

But then also the Israelites often called on God to basically judge all of their enemies.

Right. And so I knew that was there. But then I didn't know that it had like its own its own, you know, category, basically its own like title that we can call these things by.

And so I learned I learned that they had a name when

I was in college, when I was going to school. And, you know, it was just something that I think it really they really fascinated me, because here we were learning about something as we were going through our

Old Testament. It was probably Old Testament survey that we were going through this. And, you know, our our professor brought up imprecatory prayers.

And, you know, we for about a day, maybe a day and a half, we had discussions about what do we what do we do with this part of the

Bible? And I just found it so interesting because I had I had never even heard people talk about this kind of stuff before.

And and the very few times I did hear people hear Christians talking about imprecatory type prayers, especially like in the

Psalms, it was mostly just trying to not have to explain explain them or what their purpose was.

And just trying to get out of that and, you know, not necessarily always apologize, but just try and not have to talk about it, basically, because it's icky or, you know, whatever the reasoning was.

And so I'm interested to have this conversation. They sound mean, right? Yeah, they do.

I mean, some of them are they sound pretty mean, huh? But it is an interesting conversation that I'm looking forward to having tonight, because I think this probably is one of the aspects of the

Old Testament that it seems like a lot of times it's just mostly skipped over entirely and you just hope no one brings it up, right?

Yeah, most people don't want to deal with the reality of the kind of prayers that are in the

Psalms, but then not only the Psalms, Jesus also is known for making some imprecatory prayers and you see them throughout the

New Testament, too. So the primary example is in the Psalms, but then most people don't really pay attention that well to a lot of the

New Testament stuff. But then, yeah, when push comes to shove, most people are going to lean on the love your enemies kind of passages and not really have a great explanation for how to harmonize these things.

Yeah. So in having this conversation and trying to answer the question, should

Christians ever pray imprecatory prayers? It'd probably be good to start off, you know, for the for the people who were like past Harrison, you know,

Harrison two years ago, who didn't even know what an imprecatory prayer was. Why don't we just start with defining what what even is an imprecatory prayer?

Yeah, well, that's that's a forgivable error because it is kind of a word that isn't found in the

Bible so far as I can see. And so just not knowing that term is not make you guilty of some sort of scandalous sin along those lines.

But then a good example of this might be Psalm 109, and it's a little bit long, but I think it may be helpful just to read it and get a feel for what an imprecatory prayer sounds like.

But then when you're thinking about an imprecatory prayers in general, they're just prayers that are going to invoke judgment or calamity on a person.

So Psalm 109 to the choir master, Psalm of David, be not silent,

O God of my praise for the wicked and deceitful mouths are open against me, speaking against me with lying tongues.

They encircle me with words of hate and attack me without cause. So he's basically just starting out with the sins of others against him.

Right. They encircle me with words of hate, attack me without cause, return for my love. They accuse me, but I give myself to prayer.

So they reward me evil for good and hatred for my love. He says, appoint a wicked man against him.

So this is where the imprecatory part comes in. So he's explained the situation. Here's the imprecatory part. And it kind of goes on and on.

So appoint a wicked man against me. Let an accuser stand at his right hand.

When he has tried, let him come forth guilty. Let his prayer be counted as sin. May his days be few.

May another take his office. May his children be followless and his wife a widow. May his children wander about and beg, seeking food from the ruins they inhabit.

May the creditor seize all that he has. May strangers plunge or plunder the fruits of his toil.

Let there be none to extend kindness to him, nor any pity to his fatherless children. May his posterity be cut off.

May his name be blotted out in the second generation. May the iniquity of his fathers be remembered before the

Lord. And let not the sin of his mother be blotted out. Let let them be before the

Lord continually. So his sins let them be before the Lord continually, that he may cut off the memory of them from the earth.

For he did not remember to show kindness, but pursued the poor, the needy and the brokenhearted to put them to death.

He loved to curse like curses come upon him. He did not delight in blessing. May it be far from him.

He clothed himself with cursing as a coat. May it soak his body like water, like oil into his bones.

May it be like a garment that he wraps around him, like a belt that he puts on every day. May this be the reward of my accusers from the

Lord, of those who speak evil against my life. But you, oh my God, deal on my behalf for your name's sake, because of your steadfast love is good.

Deliver me. For I am poor and needy and my heart is stricken within me. I am gone like a shadow at evening.

I am shaken off like a locust. My knees are weak through fasting. My body has become gaunt with no fat.

I am an object of scorn to my accusers. When they see me, they wag their heads. Help me, oh Lord, my

God. Save me according to your steadfast love. Let them know that this is your hand. You, oh

Lord, have done it. Let them curse, but you will bless. They arise and are put to shame, but your servant will be glad.

May my accusers be clothed with dishonor. May they be wrapped in their own shame as a cloak.

With my mouth, I will give great thanks to the Lord. I will praise him in the midst of the throne where he stands at the right hand of the needy one to save him from those who condemn his soul to death.

So there's an example of them. That's funny. There's probably like three or four different places in there that I thought it was going to stop.

And then he just kept, he kept going and he kept going. So, so that sounds pretty mean to pray.

It's very detailed and specific. Yeah, it was oddly, it was oddly specific. And, and I mean, this was like, this was not like a, uh, this was a premeditated prayer, premeditated prayer, man.

He had it mapped out. He had it, he had like, um, yeah.

So, so that's like, okay. So you've given us a basic, um, definition of an imprecatory prayer.

You've read an example of one. Give us that. Give us that definition one more time, Tim. Yeah. I mean, a purgatory prayer essentially, if it's just, uh, it's just a prayer that invokes judgment or calamity or curses upon one's enemy, essentially.

Okay. So, so what, what is the purpose of a prayer like that?

Because that seems to, I'm sure there's, there's probably, you know, a lot of people that are, that are confused to, uh, when they come across these kinds of passages to think, you know, the, um, the, the

God they've read about in the new Testament, um, is the same God who's saying,

Hey, pray prayers like this. And even, I mean, you know, if, if you understand what the Psalms are,

I mean, these are, these are like, these are songs that they're singing, the Israelites are singing and worship to God.

So, so they've got like, I mean, the one that you read, it almost sounds like a, almost like a diss track in some ways, you know?

Um, and, and they're supposed to be singing that to the Lord. And so, so what is the, what is the purpose of, of praying prayers like that?

And even, and even singing them in a corporate gathering together? Sure. Well, um, maybe it's helpful to point out that this isn't just an old

Testament phenomenon. Okay. So, you know, as you're thinking about like, what is the purpose behind these things?

There's obviously different kinds of passages like there's, there's, um, you know, most notably, you're going to find

Psalms like that in the old Testament. And that's where most people are familiar with this concept. So in precatory prayers or in precatory

Psalms, most people are familiar with it at that level. And then, so you have those kinds of passages and then you have in your, um, in the, in the new

Testament, you have Jesus who basically is saying, you know, love your enemies, right? So you have all the love your enemy passages do, do good to those who persecute, um, do good to those who persecute you.

And despite food, use you, uh, you know, if your enemy hungers, feed him, if he thirsts, give him drink for, and so doing you reap calls of fire upon his head.

So you have those kinds of passages. You have Jesus saying, you know, father, forgive them for they know not what they do.

Right. So you have, you have the love your enemies passages, and then you seem to have these, you know, uh, praying judgment upon your enemies kind of passages.

And then you're trying to figure out some way to harmonize them. And your question is, you know, why are they there?

Why are they there? But then they, before I say give, give an answer to that, just, you might want to think about like just how often these kinds of things actually show up.

Uh, so for instance, like in Matthew 23, 13, Jesus says, what do you scribes and Pharisees hypocrites for you shut the kingdom of heaven against men for you need to go in yourself, nor you suffer, um, those who are entering to go in.

I mean, that's a prayer that's pronouncing judgment on the scribes and the Pharisees with some pretty harsh language.

And so Jesus is known for that, um, you know, of, of Judas, uh, Jesus essentially says, uh, you know, um, what did that band?

It'd be better that, um, he had never been born. Right. So, so Jesus commonly pronounces woe upon, you know, different, uh, false teachers or, um, you know, those who are, uh, seeking to, um, betray him in that way.

Uh, first Corinthians 16, 12, um, if any man doesn't love Lord Jesus, let him be anathema essentially this

Paul, so let him be accursed. Um, Galatians, you might think about Galatians if, you know, we, or an angel from heaven preached any other gospel to you than what you've heard preached, uh, let him be accursed essentially.

Um, you know, Paul talks about, um, in Galatians five at the end, you know, that, um, he wishes that those who the

Judaizers would essentially be, um, emasculated. Yeah. For troubling them. Um, uh, second

Timothy four 14, Paul talks about Alexander, the coppersmith. He says, Alexander, the coppersmith did me much evil.

The Lord reward him according to his works. Okay. And then, you know, I'm sure that you're familiar with a revelation, uh, where the saints in revelation are saying how long ago.

Oh Lord. Oh, holy and true until you exercise judgment upon the inhabitants of the earth, uh, essentially they're murderers, the one who beheaded them.

So, you know, part of this is like, when you're thinking about this category of imprecatory prayers, it's, um, there's different realities that a person has to hold in their head all at once.

And there's different lines of thought in the Christian life. And if you, you press one line of thought in one direction too far, you're going to get, um, you're going to get some problems and you press it another way.

You're going to get other problems. But like the idea though, is that a Christian should, um, love justice.

Okay. So like, there's this, there's this concept of justice needs to be done and Christians are to love, uh, justice.

And part of the purpose of the imprecatory prayers is, is not just about like vengeance and the role, if that makes sense.

So it's not just about like, like personal vindictiveness, um, um, that a person is praying.

So it's not just like someone did me wrong. Therefore I'm mad at them.

Okay. Okay. And I want them to be punished because, um, you know,

I personally am sinfully angry at them and can't seem to get over it. So it's not about that.

What it's about is it's about God's purposes being done in the world. And, you know, one of the things that we read, um, and it may have been, um, you know, easy to pass over when we were reading it, um, in Psalm 109.

But, um, essentially he said, um, you know, Psalm 109, 21, but you, oh

God, my Lord deal on my behalf. And now notice what he says, he says, deal on my behalf for your name's sake, because your steadfast love is good.

Deliver me. So, you know, um, David essentially is the king and he's God's representative.

And when his enemies are, uh, triumphing over him and accusing him, like they're messing with God's plan, you know, in a very significant way there.

Okay. So when Jesus, when, when David is saying, you know, Lord deal with your accusers for your name's sake, he's not saying deal with your

Mike users for my name's sake. He's saying deal with my accusers for your name's sake, meaning you had purposes and setting me up as king.

And when my, if my enemies triumph over me, then that's going to call into question your promises towards me and your protection of your people and your plan for your people.

And so a lot of these imprecatory prayers are not meant to be just personal acts of vindictiveness. Uh, what they are is they're about God's priorities and God's kingdom come and as will be done.

And so when Paul was looking at like the Galatians, um, being troubled by the Judaizers and he's saying,

I wish they were emasculated, he's not saying I'm just so personally mad at them. For them being mean to me, he's looking at them and he's saying,

Lord, like deal with them for your name's sake. Because I love these people. Like, I love the people they're harming.

Okay. And I care about them and I want them to be protected from this. And I want them to believe the true gospel and to believe what's right.

So the, so these, um, purpose of these are about like justice being done, but God being vindicated about his character being vindicated and about his purposes advancing in the world, if that makes sense.

Yeah. So, um, so it's basic, so it's not like, uh,

Hey, I'm, I'm praying this to try and convince God to get back at this person for me.

Right. Um, it's kind of like, uh, as you were explaining that I was thinking of this song, maybe you've heard it before,

Tim, by outcasts. Um, I think, I think it's called roses and you know, there, there's one part of, it's a very vulgar song.

So, you know, I won't admit it then. No, I can't remember if I, I listened to some rap back in the day playing basketball, but I don't,

I don't know. Well, then this song, you know, the basic, I think the, if I remember right, the premise of the song is, is basically he's singing about a girl who's like, just, just like kind of crazy and, uh, self -absorbed and, and only cares about herself and thinks she's all that.

And, um, and part of the song, he basically has this whole section where he describes like a very, a very detailed, you know,

I hope, I hope she's driving on her way to the club and putting on her makeup on looking in the mirror.

And then she swerves off into a dish and a ditch and crashes, you know, and, and he says it all in like this really fast, like it's not to the beat of the song.

It's not to any rhythm that he's done. It's really not even to a rhythm. He's just saying it all as fast as he can, trying to cram in as many details and many bad things that happened to her as possible.

And that's supposed to be what makes it funny. But then, but, and so he's saying this like obviously terrible thing about someone that, that he's like wanting to happen to them.

And the reason it's terrible is because, uh, he's, he's wanting to be vindicated basically.

Right. And so you're saying, you're saying like he, he, I guess you could say in a sense, he is praying an imprecatory prayer there, but he's, he's praying it selfishly for his, you know, for his own gain.

And what you're saying is, Hey, no, we're, we're supposed to do the opposite of what outcasts did in their song. Right. We need to, we need to, um, uh, you know, like, like when they're praying these prayers, they're praying it as like, uh, um, you know, vindicate yourself

Lord. And that's, that's the main, you know, if you, if you get anything from this, the main distinction that is to be made is that like when, when people think about imprecatory prayers, the only context they have for thinking about this kind of thing is some kind of self -centered, um, selfish, uh, you know, just petty vengeance kind of thing.

So they picture like a petty tyrant who basically just, you know, someone hurt their feelings or did something mean to him.

And then, and then, you know, as you read reading through David's list of things, like you're tempted to view it in that way, as if he's just some petty tyrant, right.

And everyone's being mean to him and, you know, abusing him. And, and then he's just praying that, you know,

God do these extreme exorbitant things to them in response. And like, that's, that's just not the way to read what's actually happening.

So, you know, as you, as you're reading through the Bible, one of the things to realize is that God wants us to love our enemies and do good to those who persecute us and despitefully use us.

And so there's like a, there's a personal victim, like personal, like Vendetta kind of category that I think most people, that's the only experience they have in life is some sort of personal

Vendetta kind of category. And then, you know, when, like moving a little bit beyond that, then we also seem to have a category for like a very fierce kind of protectiveness towards our loved ones and towards our family members too, right?

Like meaning, so if someone does something wrong to like one of my kids, then

I'm justified in being kind of an out of control maniac and taking vengeance in my own hand and doing whatever

I need to do in order to fix that. And so, so there's like a, like a, a, a personal

Vendetta. And then there's like a Vendetta on behalf of another person kind of thing that people understand.

But then there is a very real God -centered element to this that I think most people are unfamiliar with.

Okay. So God has priorities in the world and like God's the one who, like, if you think about it through the lens of offense as a

Christian, as you grow in the Christian life, like God's really the only one who's, who's able to take like completely justified personal offense that is righteous for him to have.

Okay. Right. Yeah. Cause he's perfect. He hasn't wronged anyone. Yeah. So like when we think about this in some sense, this is like a discussion about anger.

Okay. Okay. So there's, there's different categories of anger in the Bible. You have a sinful anger in the

Bible and you have righteous anger in the Bible. And if you can get your mind around these two categories of sinful anger and righteous anger, then it puts you in a good position to understand the difference between like imprecatory prayers done right and imprecatory prayers done wrong.

Okay. Okay. So like try to think through these categories. So like the difference between sinful anger and righteous anger is, is all about like, like, if you want to think about what anger is in a simple way, anger is,

I want what I want when I want it. That's what anger is. But then you have to ask yourself, um, like, like what, what's the difference between these two things?

And, and sinful anger is, is all about my kingdom come, my will be done on earth as it are, you know, on heaven, as I want it to be done on earth, whereas righteous anger is about God's kingdom come

God's will be done, um, you know, on earth as it is in heaven. So like, it's just kind of the reverse of that.

So most of us, we only have this category for sinful, like sinful, self -centered, petty, selfish anger, right?

You did something I don't like. I want you to be punished because, you know, basically don't nobody do me like that, right?

Yeah, that's simple anger, right? That's sinful anger. But then like the difference between simple anger and righteous anger is righteous.

Anger is all about God's priorities. Righteous anger is all about God. Like the offenses that God should be dishonored and that I love

God so much. And like my love for him pales in comparison to my love for any human being.

And so in that way, like I should love other people as I love myself, right?

But I should love God way more than I love anyone else. Okay. Now, if you have like a person who is set themselves in opposition towards God's plans and in hostile to everything that God is carrying out, there should be a holy kind of hatred for that person that can coexist.

Right? So they can coexist alongside a genuine compassion for them, but based on what they're doing, what they're doing fundamentally is wrong.

It needs to be stopped. And God needs to be honored. It just like you would have a holy anger towards someone who is abusing your wife, right?

So like we have a category for like that. Like if someone is doing something wrong to your wife, someone is doing something wrong to one of your kids.

We know how to respond in a jealous way. But like you magnify that by a million, that's how you should respond when someone is dishonoring the

Lord. And so you have to have some sort of category for righteous anger in this discussion in that I want

God's priorities to be done. I mean, you should think about like as you're looking at all these false prophets and all these false teachers that are out there that are deceiving people and basically binding on them heavy burdens.

And imagine yourself in the time of the Reformation with Martin Luther nailing his 95 thesis on the

Wittenberg Chapel and all that. Like you have a system that's set up where these individuals are fleecing these people and telling them in order to get favor with God, you have to buy it through indulgences.

Like there should be this like absolute hatred for that kind of act.

And it's very appropriate in that kind of context to be praying God, like. Vindicate your name, protect your people, right?

Yeah. And stop your enemies, OK? Yes. So at that point, Peter, Peter and Axe, who was it that sold their house and then didn't give all the money?

Annihilation of Sapphira. Yeah. Annihilation of Sapphira. He says, Mayor Silver, perish with you.

You're right. No, I'm sorry. That's not an Annihilation of Sapphira, that's Simon the

Magician. He thinks he can purchase the gift that they're, you know,

I think they're healing people. And he wants to receive that gift as well. And he asks them how much money it would cost.

And Peter's response is, you know, Mayor Silver, perish with you because you thought you could purchase the gift of God with wealth or something like that.

So it's very, you know, like he's adamant, you know,

Peter's very clearly adamantly defending the way to salvation, which is not, it has nothing to do with, you know, money, obviously.

So that's just an example of what you're talking about. Right. Yeah. So I think if you get your mind around these categories of sinful anger versus righteous anger, it puts you in a right position to understand, like, what is the purpose of these imprecatory prayers and why are people praying them?

And so there's a way to pray it in a very vindictive and self -centered way. And then there's a way to pray these kind of things in a way that's very focused on God's priorities.

It's not about vengeance, like personal vengeance. It's about God's priorities, God's will being done in the world.

And you wanting God to be honored and glorified and vindicated more than you want anything else.

And that priority supersedes everything else in that way. Right. So in light of that, you know, if the point is to say an imprecatory prayer is not something that's supposed to be vindictive, you know, for my sake, at least, you know,

I was thinking of, I was thinking, I'm pretty sure there's some, there's various passages throughout the

Bible that are basically, you know, they're either imprecatory prayers or there's, you know, there's some form of people calling out, wishing for justice and wishing for God to avenge them.

Right. And so, so I just, I just looked it up real quick because I couldn't remember any specific passages off the top of my head.

And, you know, I've found Revelation chapter six, verse 10, it says, let's see.

And they cried out with a loud voice saying, how long, oh Lord, holy and true.

Will you refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who live on the earth?

So you have that kind of example where they're very clearly calling for God to, you know, judge them, to kill them.

But to avenge their blood. So, so how does that fit in with the, with what you were saying about imprecatory prayers being like not, you know, not something that's vindictive on your, for your, for your sake?

Yeah, I think when you're thinking about the idea of an imprecatory prayer, I mean, like fundamentally there's this

God -centered element to it, but then there is the reality that judgment and vengeance is committed to God.

And so what, like, we are ultimately longing for the day when vengeance ultimately will be carried out.

Okay. So, so Christians are not like categorically against the idea of vengeance, like in, you know, in an eschatological sense, like we, like we know that there's going to be an eschatological judgment.

And like, we live, we live life in the, like with the knowledge of the reality that like, we're coming to a day where, you know, all the people who like persecuted us and despitefully used us, like there's, there's a day coming where their mouths are going to be stopped.

And so we have different postures towards them. So you have a posture where you want them to turn to Christ.

That's a very clear kind of posture that you're going to have towards other people. Meaning like, if you're a person who's been forgiven much and you see that God's forgiven you like a debt that you can never pay and like, there's nothing you can do to earn it.

And that you once were just like these people who are spitting, like you were the same person that, you know, is being like, that is persecuting you, right?

You were them. Like, so that was you. So there's a sense in which like grace and humility and desire for mercy wants them to come to repentance.

And so you have a certain posture that like, and I think that should be the primary posture that you have towards people in this life in particular is a posture that says,

I want you to come to penance. That's what I want. Okay. That's what I want personally for you.

But then there is a, there is a eschatological component to this. That's a bit different than all that.

Okay. So meaning like, we know that all of God's enemies are not going to repent.

Okay. Right. Like, so they're not all going to come to the Lord. There is. So part of this is like a hell discussion.

Okay. So we know that hell exists. We know that hell is real. And we know that like, like there, you know, any number of people, well, you see this in running a podcast or anything like that, or having any kind of public ministry out there.

Being involved in church, you see that there's many people who slander you and who say evil things about you and say wicked things about you.

And part of the, you know, the comfort that a Christian can have is you can have comfort and knowledge that, you know, at the last day, you're going to be vindicated to have been in the right.

Okay. So you're not just like, it's not just like, it's not just that justice is like completely and totally irrelevant to you whatsoever.

Right. So it's not that you just want like out of control mercy with no justice. What you want, if you have a, you have, you know, one foot in one direction, one foot in another direction.

And so in the eschatological sense, like there will be a day coming where everything will be set right.

And you as a Christian will be shown to have been in the right for following God. And so there will be a vindication of you in that sense, like in the last day where it will be shown that what, you know, everything that you suffered unjustly will be, will be put on full display in that way.

And so we like, so part of our posture is, it's not just, so what I'm trying to say is, it's not just this, like,

I want right now, you know, anytime anyone is mean to me, I have a personal vindictive kind of posture towards them that says, you do something mean to me.

I want you to go to hell. Right. That's not, that's not the kind of posture we should have, but like in the final analysis, we do know, and we are waiting for the day when all of that will be proven.

Like where, where all that will be sorted out. Right. Yeah. Where justice will be done, where God will be vindicated.

Not only will God be vindicated, but we will be shown in the last analysis to have been in the right.

Okay. Sure. So it's not just like, I want to suffer unjustly. So signing up for the

Christian life is not just me signing up to basically be persecuted my whole entire life and suffer for it without a word and nothing ever come of it.

Right. So we, like, we are long, like, so you have to have some concept of like justice in the final analysis being done.

And that's going to involve you being shown to be in the right. And those who, you know, cut your head off being showed to be in the wrong that you can, at the same time long for them to be a

Saul. Right. You get what I'm saying? Like, you can long for your persecutors to be a

Saul, but then you can also long for, if they're not a Saul for justice to be shown in the end for God to be vindicated for everything to be wrapped up.

Does that make sense? Yeah. So if I understand you correctly, based off that passage in revelation, essentially what's being stated there is a desire to see what

God has already promised. He's going to do carry it out. Right. So he promised that, you know, obviously we believe that hell is a real place that anyone outside of Christ will be damned to hell for all eternity.

And and God has promised that he will send everyone there who is outside of Christ, who has not put their faith and trust in him and repented of their sins.

And so in revelation, what they're doing is they're just crying out for God to fulfill that promise.

Right. To fulfill his promises and to, you know, have justice be done in the final analysis. And so what we're not to do is we're not to take vengeance in our own hand in this life and have a vindictive kind of posture.

So that's what I'm trying to talk about. We're not supposed to have some sort of vindictive posture where I'm going to make justice happen here and now.

What you do is you give that over to God. And so you have a concern. I want justice to be done. Okay.

Yeah. I want justice to be done, but I'm giving that over to God. And now one of the means that God uses in this life to carry that out is the government who bears the sword.

So the government is God's deacon of vengeance in this life. But then the government is not going to get it all cleaned up in this life.

You're waiting for an eschatological time where that's going to all be done. Where it's carried out perfectly. Where it's perfect.

Yeah. And that's what we want. Like we want to we want justice to be done. So we want a posture that says we want justice to be done.

But then we also want to show mercy to our enemies, too. And we want our mercy. I want our enemies to have the same mercy that we've received.

Okay. But we also know that God has a plan not to save everyone. Okay. Yeah.

And so you have to make your peace with the reality that judgment is coming. And that's a good thing.

And that God will be glorified in that. And everything will be shown to be in the right there.

Okay. So are you saying, you know, and with the title question, should

Christians ever pray in purgatory prayers? What is your answer to that? Well, I think, yeah,

I mean, obviously the psalmist does and Jesus does and Paul does. And so I think whatever you say, you have to start out with Jesus wasn't contradicting himself.

Okay. When he says to love it, love our enemies and do good to those who persecute. I went, you know,

Paul was talking about doing good to those who like if your enemy is feeding me thirst, give him drink and all that.

And so Jesus and Paul are not contradicting what Jesus was saying. And they're so in purgatory psalms exists, you know, we have examples in the

New Testament of this kind of thing. So I think you start with the basic assumption that there must be something in there that's right.

Okay. And then it's your job to try to figure out, well, how do I harmonize the examples you see in the

Old Testament and New Testament with both Jesus and Paul's teaching on doing good to those who persecute you and despitefully use you all the kind of passages that come from that.

So I think, yes, you need some place for imprecatory prayers. And I mean, it's not really that conceptually hard to imagine how this can happen.

So anytime this discussion comes up, I just ask people to think of Hitler. Okay. Just like a Hitler. Yeah. Like, like what, what would you be praying if you're in the allied army towards Hitler?

Okay. Now, like the super spiritual kind of person is just going to say, oh yeah, I pray that God will save Hitler. Well, and that's fine.

That's fair enough. And I think that's a perfectly fine thing to say, pray, like save Hitler, cause him to repent.

But you know, he's killed a lot of people. Okay. And then like the, the, the issue is that there's more people involved in this equation than just Hitler.

Okay. And this is what people don't understand about imprecatory prayers. There's more people involved than just a one -on -one personal dispute between one person and another.

Okay. So there's a lot of other people. So like, what, what is the loving thing to be praying for all of Hitler's victims?

That's what you have to ask. Okay. And so the loving thing that be praying for Hitler's victim is victims is

Lord, like stop Hitler. Right. Right. By any means.

You're right. And it may look like everything that David prayed in Psalm 109. Right. So, but I mean, it may be that level of, you know, may he be carpet bombed, you know.

I don't remember you reading that part. Yeah. Maybe he'd be waterboarded and carpet bombed and, you know, for, for your name's sake,

Oh Lord. And drawn in quarters and, you know, be left unrecognizable with nothing to bear, you know, at the end.

But no, I mean, so, you know, I think you have to, like, there's more people involved in these kinds of equations than just the one.

And that's where, like, if you try to just turn it into a, like, just me versus one person kind of scenario, that's where like, things can get a little bit, like, there's just more to it than that.

Okay. Now I'm not saying that, you know, if Hitler was the one who sent me to the gas chamber, you know,

I would be praying with the, you know, saints of revelation at that point, how long ago, Lord, holy and true until you avenge our blood, you know, no, but so there's a place for like,

Hey, you need to deal with that. That was wrong. That was unjust. And asking the

Lord to fix it all and longing for justice to be done. So it's not just suffering, you know, just irrational kind of suffering with no desire for justice at all.

But like, you know, when you're thinking about these kinds of equations, you do have to think there's more people in this than just Hitler.

You know, you got all the Jewish people you're praying for. You have all your soldiers you're praying for, you know, you're not praying like if you just, you know, pray like in some very simplistic kind of way, you know,

Lord, give Hitler a good night's sleep and help him not to get a, you know, cold and, you know, help him to feel well rested and to be sharp thinker and, you know, help his battle plans to go smoothly.

Like, I mean, you could do that, but then like, the thing is like, whatever's happened there is profoundly immoral.

Okay. That's not, that's not the kind of thing that Jesus is talking about. Okay. So what you're not praying is you're not like, so the

Lord's prayer is instructive at this point. You have to think about how Lord's prayer actually works. The Lord's prayer is fundamentally like your kingdom come and your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

Okay. And so what you're not praying in those moments when like towards an evil person, like you're praying that they be found like, um, like you're playing the only kind of blessings you're praying for them is the kind of blessings that are going to be found in conjunction with this, your kingdom come, your will be done prayer.

Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. So you're not praying for them blessings that are going to be found in opposition to the

Lord's prayer. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you're not going to be praying the let hit or Hitler's battle plans go, you know, smoothly because it's like, he's doing awful things.

That's the opposite of, you know, um, your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

Right. So that what he's doing dishonors God's will. Okay. And a lot of people don't understand like this as it relates to prayer in general, we can be very sentimental about prayer, like I'm very sappy about prayer.

And so anytime anyone that like, like if you have a church member and they have a loved one who is going through a rough time, everyone just asks you to pray that everything is going to be fixed for them.

Okay. And it's just like, but wait a minute, like what, like they're a drug addict. Okay. How about praying that they're just going to find a job with apart from repentance or something like that?

Or I'm not going to just pray that they get cleaned up apart from repentance, apart from like, they like, like the, the issue is like, you, like, you can just pray like, like, um, disconnected, like blessings on a person.

But at the end of the day, I mean, what that ends up sounding like is, you know, my, my son is sleeping around, you know, pray that he doesn't get a venereal disease with all the prostitutes he's going to visit or something like that.

It's like, well, no, that's like a completely inappropriate prayer, a blessing to be praying on them.

So like what you need to like, the issue is you're not like, you should never be praying Lord, help this sinner, like have a better time at sinning and an easier time at sinning.

Okay. Like, like, that's not where you're praying. Like, you're not like, you're not doing that. So now there's a, the opposite of that is just kind of a prayer for justice unmitigated.

Okay. Right. Yeah. Like, uh, particularly because it's motivated by sinful anger on your part that has taken it all personally.

Okay. Okay. Like, in that way, it's just like, uh, you know, you walk, you're walking down the street and someone, you know, bumps you on the shoulder and then you turn around, you say, you know,

Lord, may his house be childless forever. I'll help him to a completely measured response, not an overreaction in any way whatsoever.

Break his, you know, break his teeth out of his mouth and, you know, cause him to, you know, slowly spit out the, you know, spit out the fragments of his teeth, uh, into his food.

You know, like, bro, I just bumped into you, man. I'm sorry. Right. So like, the thing is like, there's different, like, there's a, like, that would be just the personal vindictive vendetta kind of prayer.

And then on the other end, it's just like blessings with no check on them. Right. Like with no,

I mean, it's just blessings with no check. It's like, man, just, you know, help Hitler get a good night's sleep.

And, you know, um, they'll refreshed. And, you know, it's just like, all right, this is not like neither one of the, like both of those prayers are equally wrong in different directions.

Okay. And so what should be like the thing that holds it all together is, is the

Lord's prayer, right? Your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. And in that way, you may say something like, like,

Lord, you know, save Hitler. All right. Cause justice to be done.

And if you don't want to save him, stop him. Okay. Save him or stop him, stop him through saving him and bringing him to trial.

Yeah. Right. Like stop them that way through like him surrendering and repenting of what he's done.

And maybe he can find mercy before he dies and be saved. You know, or, you know, like Lord, just if, if he, if it is not your will to save him, stop him.

Right. And so then you're praying that big list of things that David is praying at that point. Yeah. And you may get pretty creative with it at that point.

Right. Yeah. Well, I was going to ask, like, I mean, are we supposed to be that specific or, you know, are we supposed to go the revelation route?

That's kind of more just general, you know, avenge our blood. Yeah, I think, um, so the, the, the specificity is meant to teach certain things.

And so it's like a teaching moment there. And so the point, the point of the specificity is not simply just to get it all out of your system or something.

All right. It's not a give full vent to your spirit kind of thing. No, it's not.

It's not, that's not the point. Like the point is just to, it's not the outcast, you know,

I hope she's on her way to the club, putting on her makeup, swerves into a ditch. And just get it all out of your system, go as descriptive as you know.

I mean, it's teaching theology is teaching about the things that matter most in life. Okay. You know, and a lot of it is, um, you know, particularly in the context of Psalms, it's just playing off of the

Abrahamic blessing, essentially. So, you know, I'll bless those who bless you and those who dishonor you,

I will curse. Right. And so a lot of this is just playing off that kind of language and it's just teaching, you know, about the things that matter most in life.

And it's teaching about how justice works, like in the defined divine economy, as far as those things go.

And, you know, God will set everything right. He often does it in this life and he will do it in the next. Okay.

And so, you know, part of this is just longing for God's purposes to be realized. His kingdom come as will be done, uh, you know, longing for, um, him to be vindicated, you know, longing for his plans to go out, you know, love for neighbors, right.

Um, love for neighbors, love for loved ones, like, um, and people who are being deceived, you know, and abused by people who are throwing them in gas chambers and things like that.

And then there is, there is also like a, a very real personal element of like, um, like,

I think you can, you can look, um, like it is heavy to have individuals who slander you and misrepresent you and say evil things about you.

And, you know, all those things that the Bible says, like, bless those who do right. Those who persecute you and despitefully use you, you know, no, don't be deceived.

You're right. I didn't come to bring peace, but they bring us to order man's enemies will be those of his own household.

Those things are hard. You know, when God raises an evil against you from your own house and you have loved ones, you have family members who set themselves in opposition towards you and slander you and gossip about you and, you know, just set themselves out like, just absolute kind of hatred for you.

That is intent upon destroying you. There is some comfort in the knowledge that one day, like you will be shown to be in the right, right?

That your faith in God and your faith in his word was not misplaced. And that you weren't a fool.

And that, you know, like people have this, like, um, like, like that's hard.

Like all that, and what I'm trying to say is all that stuff is hard and it's hard to bear in this life.

And if you just thought that, you know, it just like, that's just part of it and you're just going to have to deal with it.

And nothing's ever happened from it. Then that could be kind of a profoundly discouraging thought to think that I signed up for the

Christian life and, you know, it was just bad news in this life and bad news in the next, right?

Right. Yeah. I mean, that's why Paul says, you know, if we're wrong about all this, then we're, we're to be pitied.

Yeah. We're of all men must be pity. Yeah. Because like, there's no like, um, man, so we got, we signed up for bad news here and bad news later.

Right. But that's not the way it works. Like there is some comfort in knowing that all those times that individuals misrepresented you and spoke falsely against you and slandered you and, you know, did evil, vindictive, hateful things against you and tried to get you to lose your job and try to get you to, like, tried to destroy your church and try to, you know, these kinds of things.

I mean, those will be set right one day. And there is some comfort knowledge that that'll happen. Now, if in this life, if in this life, one of those people could come to repentance and you could reconcile it now, you should desire that, right?

You should desire that. And so that's, this is what Jesus is saying, right? You should, you should realize that you've sent against Jesus a debt you can never pay in a million years.

Right. Right. And you should want your brother to be forgiven and ready to forgive him too.

But if he hardens his heart and that's going to be him all the way down, all the way to the end of this life and all the next justice will be done.

Right. And you will not, you will be shown to have been right. And that's a comforting thought too. Right. Um, yeah, that reminds me of, you know, talking about like,

Hey, we should, we should want people to be reconciled because we were like them.

I mean, that, that just, I guess maybe it's Titus that, um, says something similar to that, you know, basically for, we were once like them hating and, and being hated.

Right. Um, where Paul is saying there's nothing, there's no difference, um, in between the saved person and the not saved person in terms of what they have done.

Right. The difference comes in what God has done to the believer, uh, regenerated them to new life, given them faith, brought them to repentance, right.

Filled them with the Holy spirit. Um, and so all of that work is what makes us able to, to, you know, do anything that we do in faith, um, trying to worship and honor

God. And there's nothing that we brought to the table that made us better than anyone else.

And so, so from that aspect, that makes it very easy to say, um, that makes it very easy to say, well,

Hey, I can't, I can't just totally, you know, um, completely condemn a person and not desire to see them saved at all, because I was literally the exact same thing.

And, you know, I'm sure there's plenty of people who, um, who were, who were doing the exact same things

I was doing before I was a Christian, you know, and they're still doing them now without having repented.

And, and I, I don't, I don't have any sort of like, well, I'm better than them because blah, blah, blah, whatever.

And, um, so I think that is an important point to make. I do have one more question before, uh, before we wrap things up and that, you know, one thing that I've been thinking about as we've been talking through all this, as we see, you know,

I think it's clear at this point that you see biblical examples of, um, imprecatory prayers through all throughout the

Bible, throughout the old Testament, throughout the new Testament, you know, the prophets, they do it.

Um, the, the psalmists do it. Um, Jesus does it, the apostles do it.

You know, you, you see it everywhere as if you're, if you're paying attention, you see it, you see it everywhere in the

Bible. One, um, argument that I think people might bring up,

I don't know how, I don't know how popular this argument is. I don't know if it is even a popular argument.

Um, but I was thinking about this as we were talking about, you know, where do we see imprecatory imprecatory prayers throughout scripture?

Um, someone might come along and say, okay, look, I get it. The prophets did it.

The psalmists did it. Um, the apostles did it. Jesus did it. But here's the thing.

So like the prophets are speaking for God, right? Um, you know, the psalmists,

I mean, they're writing, they're writing the songs. They're inspired by the Holy Spirit. Uh, Jesus is, you know,

God, obviously. So, you know, that seems like a, okay, yeah, that makes sense. He's God.

He's allowed to do that. The apostles are the, are the ones who were first given the Holy Spirit.

They were the ones who are directly under Jesus and they were inspired by the Holy Spirit. Um, and their writings, uh, or, you know, at least some of them were, uh, and, and even the martyrs who are, who are dead already.

Um, and revelation, the martyrs in revelation, they're dead. They were killed for the name of Christ. They're calling out for their blood to be avenged.

All of this is scripture that we're reading, right? So, so what, when we were looking at those things would lead us to say, okay, this is something that we need to carry on.

You know, it could, what, how would you respond to someone who says like, look, that's people who were inspired by the

Holy Spirit. Um, but either that, or, you know, Jesus is God, obviously. Um, so, so they're allowed to do it.

They're allowed to pray things like that. But then we're not, because, you know, we're not, we're not, um, speaking for God in any kind of way.

You know, they're just, they're just, um, they're praying those prayers. They're allowed to do that.

We're not. What is your response to that? I mean, the saints in revelation is the easiest place to go with that.

Um, like trying to answer that kind of question. Now, I mean, depending on your interpretive scheme for the book of revelation, you have different ways of expressing like how that makes sense.

Okay. So like, if you have a futurist scheme of the book of revelation, then that those saints are going to be you.

Okay. Right. Okay. So in that scheme, right, then, um, they're going to be you.

Now, if you have some, like an idealist interpretation of the book of revelation, then like, these are principles that like, so this is revelation is written to the church, right.

And that like those saints represent the church. So if they represent the church and that should be representing you.

So in that way, I think there's no, like, and there's, you know, I'm not going to go through all the interpreters, but you don't want to, you don't want to break that down 50 minutes into a podcast.

You have a preterist. If you have a preterist interpretation of that, then those were, um, you know, the, uh, saints at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem.

Okay. Saying the same thing. So, um, you know, before the destruction of Jerusalem and all that.

So, you know, the, the point that was just to say, depending, like, depending on like, that's the easiest place to go to answer that objection.

I think the hardest one would be, um, I think if, if you're looking for like the hardest, um, you know, the, the, the most difficult way to harmonize it may be

Romans 12, 14. Okay. So that would be the most, uh, like seemingly obvious barrier to the kind of discussion we're having.

So, you know, Romans 12, 14 says, bless those who persecute you and do not curse them. So bless those who, uh, persecute you bless and do not curse them.

Rejoice to those who rejoice, reap with those who weep, live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, never be wise in your own sight.

Verse 17, repay no one evil for evil, but get thought to do what is honorable on the side of all. If it's possible, as much as it depends on you, live peacefully with all people.

And then beloved, never avenge yourself, but leave it to the wrath of God for his written vengeance is mine. I will repay, says the

Lord. To the contrary, if your enemy hungers, feed him. If he thirsts, give him drink. For by so doing, you'll reap burning coals upon his head.

Don't be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. So I think in that passage, you have, you know, the first statement, bless those who persecute you, bless and do not curse.

You could read that in such a way as to say, never pray for justice, right? And that's essentially what you'd have to be doing.

If you're praying like that, the imprecatory prayers are, if you're saying imprecatory prayers are off limits, you're basically reading that in a very specific way to say that prayers for justice are inappropriate and wrong.

But really what you need to do is just read that in the context of what it's saying. And there's so much in there, like to say, hey, you don't repay evil for evil, right?

You don't repay evil for evil. Don't avenge yourself. So we're talking about like, don't be like your own personal avenger, right?

Leave it to God and government's going to take care of that. And to the contrary, if your enemy hungers, feed him.

If he thirsts, give him drink. For in so doing, you're going to reap coals of fire on his head. Don't be overcome by evil, overcome with evil by good.

So as far as it depends on you, you shouldn't be like personally seeking their active harm in that way, right?

So yeah, like a personal offense towards you, like in that kind of context, personal offense towards me, like I'm not going to be like, like you, you elbowed me on the street.

You know, I'm not going to be praying a thousand curses upon your head. You know, I'm just going to try to do good to you. Okay. Like, I'm going to try to overcome evil with good in that way.

Now that doesn't mean that I, you know, ultimately in the final analysis, we're not praying for judgment. That doesn't mean that like, if, um, like you're torturing me for months and months and months,

I can't pray that God would stop you, you know? Okay. But, you know, as my own personal posture towards you,

I'm going to try to seek to do good to you and try to win you over that way. And if my efforts are unsuccessful, I am going to pray to God, like, you know, solve this.

Okay. Fix it. You know, so. May their womb be barren and their houses burnt down and, you know, their flocks and cattle raided and their crops fail.

Yep. All that. Yeah. All of that. Okay. All right. Well, that makes sense. I think that's a good place for us to stop.

And hopefully for you guys, this has been a challenging conversation to hear about imprecatory prayers.

Whether you're the person who's like me a few years ago, who didn't even know what an imprecatory prayer was before this conversation, or you're someone who knows what they were and you didn't really know what we should do, how we should understand these various passages throughout scripture, or even the person who already did know what to do with these.

Hopefully this has been a conversation that encourages you. Number one, like we say so often to, you know, not apologize for what the

Bible says. Everything that the Bible says is, you know, it's inspired by God and we don't need to apologize for those things.

But then number two, it does give us, it does give us a little more insight into how

God wants us to pray. And so, you know, obviously we don't need to neglect prayers for people to come to repentance or, you know, prayers, you know, for loved ones that, you know, they be healed if that's

God's will or whatever else, or sanctified or, you know, have joy in the midst of trials.

But then we also need to be praying, hey, you know, God, please bring about justice.

We should be a people who long for justice and to see God's will done, just like Jesus prayed in the

Lord's Prayer to him, like you mentioned. So hopefully this has been an encouraging conversation. It's a lot of fun to be able to have these and talk about these and encourage you guys through this.

And so we love being able to do this and getting to interact with you all the time. And so it's something that we really enjoy doing.

And obviously we enjoy talking about theology as well. And we're glad that there's so many of you out there who like to talk about these things and who like to hear about these things and ask us questions and whatnot.

And we're glad that, you know, it seems like God is using the podcast in that way to encourage a lot of you guys.

So we love hearing about how you will have been encouraged by the things we're talking about. And until we have the next episode, we'll see you then.

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Now, go boldly and obey the truth in the midst of a biblically illiterate world who will be perpetually offended by your every move.