October 7, 2015 Show with Stephen Atkinson on “How Those Outside of the USA View American Christianity” PLUS Steven Tsouklas on “The Nation of Islam”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio

platform on which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear

from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity

living on the planet earth.

We're listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this seventh

day of October 2015.

And for those of you who are expecting Michael Haken to be in our program today, as

we had previously announced, Michael Haken, who is a world -renowned Christian

historian and author and professor and conference speaker, brilliant brother in Christ,

well, he had an unforeseen urgent matter to deal with today and had to reschedule

his interview to sometime within the next two weeks, so we are apologizing for that

on behalf of our dear brother Michael Haken.

And also yesterday, at the end of yesterday's program, I accidentally announced that

Ken Ham was going to be on today.

Ken Ham, the world -renowned creationist apologist from back

to Genesis, well, he was never going to be on today.

He was supposed to be on and is going to be on, God willing, next Wednesday, October

14th, and I just accidentally looked at the wrong area of the calendar when I said that right at the end of

yesterday's program.

But I'm sure you won't be disappointed nonetheless because of the lineup we have today, and I thank these

brethren that we have as guests today for filling in last minute for me.

First of all, we have returning to the Iron Sharpens Iron program today, Stephen Atkinson, who's

originally from Northern Ireland and he is currently the North American Director of Ministry

for a Christian Witness to Israel.

Following Stephen's hour on the program, we are going to have a guest that

appeared on the old Iron Sharpens Iron program, and I'm delighted to have him back to the new

broadcast for the first time, Stephen Tsoukalas, and he is going to be speaking

about the Nation of Islam.

I'm not talking about the world religion known as Islam that millions of Muslims

adhere to globally.

I'm talking about the specific cult that was born here in America, the Nation of

Islam, currently headed by Louis Farrakhan, and due to the fact that they are having

another Million Man March, apparently, this weekend in Washington, D .C.,

and Mr. Farrakhan is calling for African Americans to tear down

the American flag, we thought that it'd be appropriate to educate our listeners

during the second hour on exactly what the Nation of Islam is.

So I hope you stay tuned for the second half of the broadcast as well.

But first, let me welcome back a new friend of mine, and I'm looking forward to many years of

friendship with him and laboring with him for the cause of the gospel, as many years as the Lord

will permit.

It's an honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens.

Iron.

Stephen Atkinson.

Well, thank you, Chris.

It seems like no time at all.

I was setting this live.

Once again, it is a privilege.

I want to hear that.

Well, it is a privilege to be back with you.

I'm very glad to help.

I'm very glad to stand in for.

Michael Aiken.

Yes, and I'm very

happy that you were able to do so.

And before we even get further into the interview, I just have to

read to you all what I think is a hilarious commendation for

my program that I just received today from Todd Freel.

Todd Freel, as many of you may know, is the host of Wretched

TV and Wretched Radio, and he's an author.

And I had the honor and privilege to have him yesterday on my program.

Well, here is what Todd had to say about me.

Iron Sharpens Iron.

Let's see.

Let's see.

It was my pleasure yesterday.

Wait a minute.

I somehow lost his thing here.

Hold on a second.

I'm sorry, ladies and gentlemen.

I had it right in front of me.

Oh, here it is.

Here we go.

Todd Freel here says spending 30 minutes on air with Chris Arnzen is like riding a

bull in a rodeo without a clown to save you.

Fast, hard, challenging, and somebody inevitably gets stepped on.

It was a gas.

I don't know what he feels like.

Well, excuse me, folks.

If I seem a little bit frazzled today, I just literally got Stephen Atkinson to agree to do the program today

about five minutes before the show started.

So my mind is not quite where it should be right now.

But I thank you for your patience.

But Stephen, before we go into our specific topic today, which is a controversial one and kind of

goes right hand in hand with what Todd Freel had to say about Iron Sharpens Iron,

you are going to speak on today what those outside the U .S.

think about American Christianity or what the view is of those outside of the U .S .A.

about American Christianity.

And before we go into that, if you could please give us a little bit more

background about Christian witness to Israel.

I know that you already did that at great length in previous interviews, but there are some people who

are perhaps tuning in for the very.

First

time.

So let me give

you the prayer

driving the

missiology.

I think

that's a

concern.

Indeed, our theology,

impoverished theology, either generally will

have a diminished or a

disorientated missiology.

In other words, if we don't get the belief

right,

we don't get

the

belief in

church the church to be engaged with their Jewish neighbors.

And so far as I'm

able, community,

very

fine

men.

And today, as I

said, our topic is what those outside of the U .S .A.

think of.

American Christianity or how those outside of the U .S .A. view American Christianity.

And obviously a very controversial subject.

Some people may be offended by some things that are said, but I think that these kinds of things are important.

So in fact, years ago, I conducted an interview

with a liberal Roman Catholic because he wrote a book called

Holy Land, USA.

And it was basically, I think the subtitle was a Catholic

ride across America's evangelical landscape.

And the reason I did that interview is because I wanted to hear how an outsider

outside of evangelical Christianity viewed evangelical Christianity.

And this Catholic author, Peter Feuerherd, who,

as I said, is a liberal and openly liberal, identifies himself as a liberal Catholic.

He basically what he found in many of the

American evangelical churches, according to him, in fact, I will quote when he was referring to the mega

churches, he said, you will find most often more thus

saith Oprah than thus saith scripture.

And the thing that was quite interesting, being a liberal, he was happy about that.

And I thought it was a fascinating interview myself.

And I told him that I agreed with his analysis of the evangelical landscape in America.

But I was not happy with his findings as he was, I was very disturbed by

his findings, although lamenting that I had to agree with him.

But that is kind of the mindset that I had today in a different way.

I know that you are a obviously a Bible believing Christian, but you're also theologically reformed as I am.

And you come from the UK, Northern Ireland specifically.

And you have been living there most of your life in the UK

as a Christian for many of those years.

And I just wanted to have some discussion today about the view of many of those

that you have come to speak with and meet and know and worship with and

labor with for the gospel, what their opinions are of American Christianity.

And what kind of sparked this in my head, this idea, is that

there was a brother, I'm not going to mention his name, but a brother in Christ in the UK who

posted something on my Facebook page.

He was disturbed by myself and other Christians

saying very negative things about a speech that President Barack

Obama gave right in the aftermath of the recent horrific

massacre or executions by a crazed gunman in Roseburg,

Oregon.

And he immediately, in fact, openly stated that he intended to politicize this

horrific event.

And it was obvious he was talking about gun control, which has always been a part of his platform.

And myself and other evangelicals were talking about the hypocrisy

of Mr. Obama attacking law -abiding, gun -owning

citizens of the United States and somewhat making it clear that

we in America who believe in gun owner rights and who

are against gun control laws, especially those from the left of the aisle there,

he was clearly insinuating that this was the root of the problem.

And yet this man is also totally in favor of murdering unborn children in the

womb, in fact, partially born children.

And so this brother in Christ from the UK was

standing up at least for the comments of President Obama in regard to

gun control.

And he was criticizing myself and other Christians

who were bringing up this hypocrisy.

So I just wanted to give you a little background of what sparked this.

But before we even go into some of the criticisms that you may have of the United States, perhaps you could start with

Christianity in the United States, the things that you admire.

About it and seek to emulate and imitate and so on.

Well, you know, I think that

in that, you know, I think we're very, very quick to speak.

We're very quick to make judgments.

We're very quick to make generalizations in our

ignorant

Northern

Ireland and

the Highlands.

And

therefore,

when I come on here, I need to make

pronouncements.

I have been in the US.

I've been traveling over for three years.

And I think also it would be

helpful, perhaps UK is not

all we, the United Kingdom is the United Kingdom

of

Great Britain and Northern

Ireland.

It's a different deal.

When I think that we,

again, in the UK,

there's the American church

scene

and

therefore the

good.

And again, I think that we need to recognize that there are certain personalities and

characteristics of the English, the Northern

Irish culture that makes you make pronouncements.

Sometimes there is an attitude that tends towards negativity.

Make negative pronouncements, then it can make us seem rather

reasonable.

I find

really just kind of setting pronouncements that I

might make some way, having something of a disclaimer, because

I'll be making,

maybe some have, and maybe some of your listeners have,

that we then,

all of that, you

know, into the mix.

I think we need to be careful.

And certainly if we're counting on what I have and what knowledge I have and what an

understanding I have, and even what observation I might make.

And therefore, I will be very

happy

to kingdom work is overall.

And I see both the negative and the...

Okay, well, start out with the positive.

It might be better to work it that way.

Well, I'm very happy to do that.

And I'm.

Happy to do that because sometimes, you know, when folks from the UK make their pronouncements, it is

often in the negative.

And so I'm very happy to come and say that

a country that has, and I really mean to

you, I think as I've shared even last week when I was with you, had a huge

potential for Jewish mission as we narrow the focus for the specific work that I'm involved

in.

You also know the book by Piper Johnson called Operation World, where he really

has an analysis seen all

around the world.

And he said, I've got a quote in front of me, actually,

in Operation World, we are living in the time of the largest in gathering.

And then he makes a comment concerning the United States.

And he says, no other continent has such a wealth of

and means for evangelizing their own continent and the world.

In other words, you know, a guy that has analyzed the world, I'm coming here with observations from the UK

and the US, but someone that

I

think

that's a

challenging statement, optimism, as I have the privilege

to

recognize.

And what is the main contrast you see in a positive

way between what you've experienced in Christianity here and

overseas now that you live here?

I think one of the great positives, and this sounds really mercenary, because I'm in a not -for

-profit mission.

And I'm,

you know, desiring to

raise funds,

got more money over

availability of

something

that needs

to be recognized, and need promoted and used.

And, you know, I'm not saying

that, I'm not saying that we're all stingy

Scots -Irish, there is a

generous, generosity pertaining to finance, a generosity pertaining,

and just the hospitality.

Having said that, Irish hospitality is legendary, obviously, and

the hospitality of my UK brethren.

I think what I would have to, you know, make clear, too, that, as I said, we have a

very different kingdom here

in that, like, 100 miles by

100 miles, somewhere around that region, you're going to have a thousand Bible -believing churches.

And that

reformed witness of a bygone year, England has seriously

good efforts at regaining, Southern Ireland would be

90 Catholic, and increasingly, the amount of that is just set

aside of Ireland.

I saw American church planters.

So, and Michael Hagen, indeed, could

this next time when he's on, because he has been entering into conversations with the

of Ireland, and I think they are planning on setting some kind of

outpost of

in Cork, WI, I traveled a lot all

over Ireland, and an encouragement just to

see in

that the

American church, looking

at the need, another

generosity was made clear to me by a number of guys

in England.

Now, as I said, my own in Cambridge, England,

in

the 90s,

that denomination is continuing and

growing and has the point that

is being made to me is by these American church planters, is that we in America have

been

in

the United States

with

what we have,

let's use our resources, let's use our manpower.

Sometimes the sometimes the

life is

and again, those are

just

things we need

to encourage one another, we need to build one another up within the kingdom

of God

and his and we're

going to be going to a break right now and you can pick up where you left off.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question for Stephen Atkinson, about how those outside of the

USA view American Christianity, our email address is chrisarnsen at

gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -S -E -N at gmail .com.

And whether you agree with our guest, whether you disagree with our guest, whether you have negative things to say about

Christianity from your observation, Christianity in the United States or whether you want

to bolster a positive view of American Christianity, we'd love to hear from you, we'd

especially love to hear from you if you live outside of the USA and I know we have many listeners in

the UK and other parts of the world.

Chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com

and chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

Please give us at least your first name and the city and state that you're residing in and the country where you reside if you

live outside the USA.

Don't go away, we'll be right back with Stephen Atkinson.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen, if you've just tuned us in for the last half hour.

Our guest has been and he will be for the next half hour, Stephen Atkinson, who is the North

American Director of Ministry for a Christian Witness to Israel, CWI

is how it is known, is

CWINA .org.

We have been discussing how those outside of the United States of America view American

Christianity.

And we were just concluding with some of the positive things that our

guest, who is a native of Northern Ireland, has been saying about Christianity.

I know one of the negative things that probably popped into your head is these bloody Americans and their

commercials during Christian radio.

Well, that's one of the things that I need to survive.

This is market -driven America, you see.

Well, if you could continue, I don't know if you want to continue with anything positive or if you want to go straight for the juggler vein and start

talking about negative things.

Well,

I'm

happy

to

talk

about either

angle, but I

don't reach part

of even of your history that

is different

from your

own

setups.

I was just going to say that a lot of that comes from one of the most ingrained and

deeply rooted things that Americans and American Christians especially cherish,

although obviously not all of us, but those who believe in a free church, in a

free state, who at least from history

know that it is never a good idea for a denomination

to have tyranny over all other Christians and enforce upon you

obedience to them at all costs, even in light of

disagreement on serious issues that arise.

Now, is this maverick spirit or this lone wolf spirit, obviously since you're talking

about this coming out of the American pioneer spirit, is this something that is much more prevalent over

here than in the UK and other places in.

The world that you've been?

I think that's undoubtedly, I think that kind of...

I have 47 varieties in my closet.

Entitlement

to pioneer

-style nature.

Folks

have a

mindset

because

the

kingdom,

we go because they

are the experts,

not me.

I

don't

want something,

you've

got to tell me feel good.

And again,

because

it's

market -driven,

who gets the

crack to the

scriptures,

it will demand the

proper...

And I want to just

add something about those who

advertise in my.

Program.

It should be known that these folks that advertise with me, the first and foremost priority

in their minds is that the gospel is spread and that this show remains on the

air.

Very few of them have a grandiose idea or misconception about making a lot of

money from these ads or getting a lot of business.

I hope they do get a lot of business to help return the good that they've done to me.

But I just wanted to make it clear to my audience that I know all of these advertisers personally, and I know that they're godly

men and have the right motives involved in even sponsoring a show like this.

So I just wanted to make that clear to our listeners.

I'm sure you would agree that one of the things that's unique about the United

States is we are more culturally and ethnically and racially

diverse than any other nation in the world.

And we also have a lot of freedoms that aren't in existence in

a lot of places.

And freedom, which is a wonderful thing, often has negative baggage.

I mean, when you think about, I have heard Roman Catholic apologists

blame every evil in the world on the Protestant Reformation

because sola scriptura in their minds is a blueprint for

anarchy.

And all of these liberal denominations have popped up all over the globe, and they blame that

on the Reformation.

And they also even blame the liberalism within the Catholic Church on

the free spirit that was spawned by the Reformation.

Now, some of that may even be true.

But whenever you have freedom, because men are born totally depraved, you're going to have people

misusing that freedom.

And the alternative is not better to have a tyrannical church like

Rome was, and even the Church of England in the past was, where the

streets ran red with blood if you disagreed with them.

That's not a better option.

I mean, do you agree with that or not?

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

You know, in all of.

These things, it's simply taking the wrong extreme and taking

that which could be good.

I'm saying as you speak of

some of the ill

observers can be tyranny,

tyranny of the minority.

And there can be that attitude of a few people.

And I've seen pastors, and sometimes I've had to sit alongside pastors

in the congregation that

just

drive the pastor

nuts.

The other

thing that

I've

reformed, all we've got to do

is discuss.

We're all gathered together.

That's our kingdom work.

You know, it

takes over.

And even we

have that

arrogant

pride, and

we're better

because our theology is better.

Again, why

are

the

numbers, but to

where

the bad

speak,

okay, there's a little

of a lot more of that

outside that.

But I think on balance, I has a huge

potential.

By the way, I can recall having a meeting at

the radio station where I.

Used to work in the 90s and early 2000s, and a

part of one of the largest, in fact, the largest Christian network in the world.

And we had a visitor that day in our conference room.

The sales staff had a meeting with the general manager of a new Christian

station in London, because it was a very new thing in England,

apparently at that time, where the laws were changed, and they were given the freedom to have

Christian radio in the

Was that premier Christian radio?

It could have been, I don't remember.

It might well have been, yeah.

But this general manager came to the States to visit with

Christian radio stations that had success, and he wanted to learn from us and so on.

And I said to this man, you know, I always wanted to visit London, especially to see

the Metropolitan Tabernacle.

And he said, pardon me?

I said, the Metropolitan Tabernacle.

Sorry, I'm not following you.

The Metropolitan Tabernacle?

Well, Charles Haddon Spurgeon was the pastor in the 19th century.

I'm sorry, who?

The man didn't know who Charles Spurgeon or the Metropolitan Tabernacle, and

his station was in London.

How was that possible?

Well, it depends what circle you walk in.

I feel

that we

stand

amidst of

the

gap for

that.

And we need to know why people died for

what may come a time.

Now, what words of counsel do you have for both our

American listeners and our UK and overseas listeners

and listeners in Canada?

What do you have to say to all of us as a word of counsel regarding everything that

you've said in summary?

I, again, this might sound heretical to some.

The more I want to see likeness to

individuals

carrying

Calvinists.

Brother in the Baptist Church in Kansas gave me a little card at

the top, a card carrying Calvinists.

So I'm there.

That's where I am.

But you know, we are not justified.

We're not justified by our cerebral knowledge of the intricacies of

the faith.

Faith alone in

Christ

alone

is

done.

When

we

get the

preachers

and

as

we

grow in

that

closer walk with God,

then we pray, your kingdom come, your will be done.

Very

well said.

And

I just want you now in about two minutes to.

Remind our listeners how they can get in touch with you and also how they could invite you to speak and

support the mission of CWI North America.

Well,

that's our

concern.

While I'm doing my driving, people can get in touch with me.

I can

write

to you.

You'll

pass on the

email to the ancient people.

Amen.

And I do want to speak with you at some point tonight or very soon.

I am prayerfully considering relaunching a pastor's luncheon that I used to

conduct every year near Christmastime, where I treated pastors absolutely free of charge to lunch.

And we had a speaker every year.

There is such a thing as a free lunch then?

Yes, there is.

And hopefully I'll be able to organize that again.

And I would love to have you as the first speaker to relaunch my luncheon.

And this was something that was the brainchild of my late wife, Julie, who one year said

to me, instead of giving each other Christmas presents, why don't we start treating pastors to lunch every

year since you have so many friends that are pastors more than anybody I know.

And we started doing that and it lasted for about a decade.

And she went home to be with the Lord.

And this will be the first luncheon that I am relaunching, if God enables it,

since her going home to glory.

So I would love for you to be a part of that, if you are able.

And I'll discuss more of the details with you later.

I purposely put you on spot in public, so you'll have no way of wriggling out of it without looking

bad.

Well, would I ever wonder?

Well, I look forward to having you back very soon on the Iron Sherpa's Iron broadcast, brother.

Thank you very much.

I'll talk to you soon, Chris.

All right.

God bless you.

And don't go away because we have Stephen Sokolos coming up after these

messages speaking about the Nation of Islam, especially since Louis Farrakhan is planning another

Million Man March, I believe, this weekend in Washington, D .C.

So don't go away.

We'll be right back after these messages.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen.

If you've just tuned us in, our second guest today is Stephen Soukalos.

Stephen teaches in the area of world religions and theology at Wheaton College in

Wheaton, Illinois.

He's earned master's degrees at Harvard University and Gordon Conwell Theological

Seminary and his PhD in theology at the University of Birmingham, United

Kingdom.

He's a part of Sound Doctrine Ministries, a ministry to non -Christian and pseudo

-Christian religions.

The Sound Doctrine Ministries website is sdmin .com.

That's sd for Sound Doctrine, min for ministries .com, sdmin .com.

It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron and for the very

first time, welcome you to the all -new Iron Sharpens Iron, Dr. Stephen Soukalos.

It's a pleasure to be on, Chris.

I hope you're well and looking forward to the next hour.

I am as well and to get this discussion rolling, I am just going to play

a brief clip of Louis Farrakhan, a brief

clip of a speech he recently gave.

This is just to set the climate for our discussion on the nation of Islam.

I want to educate our listeners what the nation of Islam actually is,

especially because of the fact that Louis Farrakhan is arranging another Million Man March in Washington, D

.C., and I believe it's this weekend.

Here is a clip from a recent speech that Minister Farrakhan gave.

I don't know what the hell the fight is about.

Over the confederate flag.

We need to put the American flag down because we've got as much hell under that

as the confederate flag.

Who are we fighting today?

It's the people that carry the American flag.

What flag do the police have?

What flag flies over the non -justice department?

What flag flies over the White House where a black man lives this

called.

Every day?

What about that flag?

Well, that was just a bit of our charming friend, Louis

Farrakhan, giving us a piece of his mind about the United States and

our flag.

But this is an interesting organization, the nation of Islam.

Many people who are unaware of its roots and its teachings assume that it's just

another sect within the world religion known as Islam, but nothing could be farther from the

truth.

So, Dr. Tsoukalos, tell us, first of all, I know your book is out of print, but tell us

something about the book you wrote, and perhaps somebody in publishing listening will

bring that back into print.

I think it needs to be back into print.

But tell us something about this book you wrote and why you felt a need to write it.

It's also particularly of interest that you are a white Christian and a white American.

What was the thought behind this when you wrote the book on the nation of Islam?

The nation of Islam,

before it can be understood theologically,

and to take what I do,

establish the sociological in which,

perhaps you'll ask me about that later, but the book's

sociological into the 19th century,

perhaps the

first quarter of the 19th century, all the way up to 1930.

So it has about 100 years

that we

can establish when we're talking

about slavery.

But the nation of Islam did not arise in a vacuum.

It arose in a setting

by which we can understand the nation of Islam,

what we'll call orthodox Islam or true Islam.

It's actually a.

Heresy.

Yes, and one of the reasons why, and

perhaps after I make the statement we can go into its roots and its origins and so on, one of the reasons

I know it's heresy is because, correct me if I'm wrong, but do they not teach that God is

a black man?

And obviously, according to Islam, so -called orthodox Islam, the world religion

that has millions of adherents all over the globe, they consider that the worst

form of blasphemy, to give partners to God, to teach, as Christians do,

that God came in the flesh as Jesus Christ, and to believe in the trinity and so on,

they would equally abhor a notion of God being a black.

Man, would they not?

Oh, yes, indeed.

It's one of the cardinal, in

traditional Islam, is

that the nation of

Islam publications, under

what, now isn't

that interesting?

However, when you ask them to flesh that out, that is the nation of Islam adherents, what they'll tell you

is Detroit in

1930, unpack more of that

later,

but that's Shirk.

It is Shirk,

correct.

Now, the doctrine of God in the nation of Islam is a little bit hard to discern.

Nation of Islam, its theologians, if I may put that in quotes, is

hardly systematic in its expression of what God is.

They have a notion of God as the trillions of years

ago, who was created out of darkness, and note

that.

Secondly, they see Fard, Wallace D. Fard, as God himself, or

Allah himself, in the flesh,

and you could...

Now, tell us something about the actual background of Fard and Elijah

Muhammad.

Much was known about Fard at the time he appeared in

Detroit.

Back then, it was not an age of the internet where you could, you know, Google

Wallace D. Fard.

His ID is a San Quentin inmate,

completely unknown, and they

weren't under the understanding that his roots could be traced back to San

Quentin as an inmate.

He rid

himself of that name because Poole was his

ancestor's slave master, and his surname was named Poole

for that reason, and his

Nation

of Islam

adherents either have

an...

Two weeks after, just quickly,

Muhammad Ali is no longer...

He was a son, and loved to

debate, loved to talk theology, and do

what was known as industrial,

moving up

to the

bigotry, as

he did in...

Quickly disillusioned in the 19 -teens, and into the

1920s, two black leaders, as we go into the upper 1920s, two black leaders,

Noble Drukus Garvey

was a great...

As well.

By the late 20s, both...

Either Garvey was...

And that was Wallace D. Fard, or Fard Muhammad, as he's also known.

Later, Elijah Muhammad, who was captivated by Fard, and

listened often outside a window, because the meeting places were packed, of course,

couldn't get near the place, and was very captivated.

And at the end of the...

At the end of one meeting, Elijah Muhammad recalls that he made himself through the

crowd, made

himself...

You are...

You are God.

And Fard reportedly said...

So, going back to even Fard, was he making any kind of

proclamations that he was God?

Not at the time.

I think Fard... I'm inferring here.

I'm...

My thesis is that not at the time, but later on, began to be

deified by Elijah Muhammad.

And Fard was, of course, willing and able to accept that confession.

And so

he was a

salesman of fine linens, and he would make himself, make his way into

homes.

Their true origin, about their

truth,

i .e. Christianity, was misleading them, and turning them

into... Turn the other cheek when slapped

by people to stand up for

who they are, giving them a sense of racial identity and pride.

Now, it turned into his

establishing a following, which was small at first, which led to home meetings, which then

led to large gatherings.

Now, the nation of Islam has a lot of

positive things that came out of it socially, in regard

to moral and social ethics and behavior, and rescuing

black people from the inner cities out of a hellish lifestyle, wasn't it?

Weren't there some positive things that at least initially came out of that?

And still today, in that respect?

Comes out of it, just like many of the cults of the world, you know, like Mormonism, for instance, you

know, that people can be rescued out of a deadly lifestyle, like such

as drug addiction or alcohol abuse or anything else that you could think of, because of the

strict moral standards.

If you could just comment on that.

Sure.

Yes, indeed.

And you often find

from the nation of Islam in prisons, for example.

And yes, yes, for sure, their lives have been turned around, coming

out of drugs,

turning one's life around.

It's had tremendous social and many,

so in looking at

these, and we

can

call it

behavior,

occurs when one is redeemed by grace

through faith in the

Lord.

Amen.

What is the view of the fate of the white.

Race in the minds of those in leadership in the nation of Islam?

Do they believe that white people are beyond salvation, that we are reprobate and

without hope?

Back in 1991, when I was lecturing in New York City, in Queens, a

series on cults, I had a day off and I went with my friend, I mentioned this at the beginning

of the sidewalk,

we came across a young black man

on the sidewalk, and he had books and he was

being, I approached

the young man turned away from five degree angle.

And as I asked him questions about the books, he would answer my questions, but not look me directly.

I said, Thank you.

And we went on.

My friend said, Do you know who that was?

I said, I said, No.

He said that that was a member of the black Muslims.

That was a member of the nation of Islam.

He thinks you're a devil.

And so that prompted me to study the nation of Islam deeply getting

their public newspaper.

Yes, the black, excuse

me, the white person within

is an individual.

And they have Chris, interestingly, a sacred myth or

sacred story that explains why white people cannot be trusted.

It's the story of the evil black scientist, Yakuv.

Now, do in their minds, do white people though, have an

opportunity to repent and actually join the nation of Islam?

There have been white people throughout history, even involved in the Black Panthers and involved in any kind of

activity with black activists and so on, that

that, you know, want to take on the identity of black folks.

So do they view that that that is a possibility in.

Their theology and minds?

I would say reading their materials?

No, it is not a possibility.

Now, whether that's done in practice, I don't know.

But reading their publications,.

The whites are devils and cannot be trusted.

Now, even Malcolm X, though, he was of mixed race,.

Was he not?

Yes.

And interestingly, there's a theology here that I have had to infer in my reading of

nation Islam.

To answer your question, yes.

And even Lewis saw white blood in him.

Now, what happens here?

Well,

and I'm going to

repeat our

email address if

you'd

like to join.

Us on the air with a question for Stephen Soukalos.

By the way, am I pronouncing your name correctly?

It's been years since I've spoken with you.

So is it Soukalos?

Yes, it is.

Okay, great.

Great job.

Yes, I'm also one of the few people that can correctly pronounce the

name.

He's a Christian believer who was formerly a Muslim.

Okay.

But the email address if you'd like to join us is chrisarnsen at

gmail .com.

We do already have a listener in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, a Christian

who wants to know what was the fate of Wallace D. Fard?

Did he is the is his death known about?

And if so, how did the nation of Islam react to their God.

Dying?

There's a twofold answer to that first in the strictly from

their

perspective, seriously

disappeared in 1934.

Three and a half years after that.

Interesting in Detroit.

So from a secular standpoint, that

and

Elijah Muhammad

never did.

Rather, the both of them are on in

the atmosphere

and they are the mothership

Fardian Islam.

And what's your problem

with that?

We do have a listener in Mechanicsburg, Harrison, who wants to know how accurate

was the 1992 film Malcolm X produced and directed by Spike

Lee?

If you've seen it, I thought it was very accurate.

Yeah, you know, I thought that was a fascinating movie.

And if you see it, I'm talking to my listeners.

Now, if you see it listed on a regular TV station where they're going

to do some editing of anything that would be profane and so on, I would highly urge you to

watch it because ironically, Spike Lee, who, who

started the film in a really absurd way with the police beating a

black individual.

But in an occurrence that was very globally known in the early night, the

early 1900s, but the early 1990s.

But the rest of the movie, it was not a tribute to the nation of Islam, he was exposing

some very evil and wicked and corrupt.

Sides of that movement.

Malcolm X, born, he grew up

as and being a criminal and was in jail, reading

philosophy and theology heavily.

And Malcolm X

began to

turn

to the nation was eventually

and

made

a

program

began

to have to Muhammad, because several young women were claiming to

have the

tables that

when he arrives in Mecca, pretty much

an honorable, rather than going himself, Elijah

Muhammad, but he found himself

standing shoulder to shoulder with

began to turn the tables even more.

And when he returned, he eventually renounced.

Right, we're going to be going to a break right now.

And so we do have a listener in Florida that has a question we'll get to you right after the station break.

If you'd like to join us on the air as well.

Our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com.

Ch r i s a r n z e n at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Steven Sukalis and our discussion on the nation of Islam.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnson.

If you just tuned us in, our guest for the remaining half hour is Stephen

Tsikalos and he is the author of a book on the nation of Islam that we are

discussing today, largely due to the fact that Louis Farrakhan, their current leader, is

organizing a million man march for this weekend, I believe, in Washington,

D .C.

Our email address, if you'd like to join us, is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

We do have an email from Mike in Fort Myers, Florida.

He says, I have a copy of your book on the nation of Islam, which definitely needs to be brought

back into print given the widespread misunderstanding of this sect, not only within the

Christian church at large, but the public as well.

My question to you is this.

In trying to dialogue with a member of the nation of Islam, where would you begin in terms

of laying a.

Good foundation?

First of all, thanks for that kind comment.

I do hope that both that book and my book, Masonic Rights and Wrongs, do indeed return to

print.

Thank you for your kind comments.

Let's return to the sidewalk in Manhattan in 1991.

Had I known back then what I know today, here's how I would have handled the

dialogue with the young man selling books.

And if you're just tuning in, there was a young man of the nation of Islam selling books on a

Manhattan street sidewalk.

And when I approached him at the book table, he turned away from me to answer my questions because I

was a white devil.

Now, what I would have done, I would have stated after asking some questions about the books,

you know, I've read.

I actually care enough about you to read your books and to

understand you as best I can.

And although you think I'm a white devil, please understand, at least right now, that I've made the effort to

understand and enter into your world of belief because I care for you.

I've read about the Yaqub, named

Yaqub, and how the white race was actually grafted from the black race in a series

of experiments.

And that's why you

made the effort.

And I think I'm going to appeal to your

intuition

and that which molds your life.

And I want to share that with you.

And I also want to tell you about who Jesus is and what he has done and how he can truly

make you and I.

Amen.

Amen.

And we have already heard from you that the Nation of Islam

is a cult that really departs in many crucial ways from the

world religion known as Islam.

What other than the Koran do they claim to hold as their guide

for life and religious teaching.

And so on?

Well, the Koran, they'll say, the

supreme wisdom.

The Koran is a holy book from God.

The Bible is a poison book.

So they indeed rest upon the Koran for their belief system.

However, I doubt that in

self

-Koranic...

Obviously, the shirk that they teach regarding.

God being a black man, that's really a vivid example of how they can't really be.

Knowledgeable about the Koran.

Without doubt.

And they're calling the white people devils is also a

doctrine that you would not find.

And also, in addition to answer your question,

they would hold that the writings of Muhammad...

What do you

make of the video that was publicized.

A number of years ago, where it seems crystal clear that Louis

Farrakhan is taking upon himself with no apology,

responsibility for the assassination of Malcolm X.

And it was really astonishing that not really much was made of that public

profession, which obviously was made by a person with a hidden camera.

This was not something that he wanted for public consumption.

But what do you make of that video?

First of all, I'm assuming that you saw it.

Did.

You see the video?

I did not.

I will say it confirms my theory, and it's not a theory that

myself, that members of the Nation of Islam did in fact...

Yes, well, I would advise you look that.

Up because it's pretty clear that he's admitting to it.

He's using cryptic language, but it's obvious that's what he's doing.

He explained it away in some absurd fashion.

But I also knew years ago, back in the 90s, a pastor in

Detroit, John Davis, who was a Christian convert out of the Nation of Islam.

He was one of Malcolm X's bodyguards, and he believed with certainty that

Farrakhan was involved in that assassination.

So what has changed, if anything, in regard to the

teachings or public image or the public relations of the Nation of Islam

since it was founded, now that it's under the headship of Louis Farrakhan?

I remember I was quite surprised when I saw a clip of

Louis Farrakhan defending Mike Tyson, who was being accused of

sexual impropriety and even rape.

And the way that Louis Farrakhan was defending Mike Tyson, not of his innocence, but he was

saying basically, what do you expect when somebody is a

heavyweight champion of the world and a celebrity like that, and women are clamoring over him, he's going to give in to these

temptations.

And he was acting like he was joking about it from the podium, which seems to contradict

their strict moral standards.

Yeah, that is interesting.

Well, to your question, nothing really has changed of substance,

because if you go on noi .org, for example, not for example, if you go

on noi .org, you'll find that there's a statement, a confession,

twofold of what the Muslims believe and what the Muslims want, created by Elijah

Muhammad, who, of course, was a disciple of

Wallace D. Farr.

So nothing of substance has changed.

But it is interesting that you bring that up, that Farrakhan would say that about Mike

Tyson, when all along, on paper,

the NOI, rather than behave the way he's behaving,

on paper, you'll find Farrakhan, and yours is one

example, convincing his...

Now, has the Nation of Islam always accepted

invitations by black churches to speak

in their pulpits?

It's quite a fascinating thing to me.

I saw not long ago, maybe two years ago, a video clip of Louis Farrakhan

speaking in an African American Baptist church at the invitation of the pastor.

And the irony was that Louis Farrakhan was actually saying a lot of true

things in his rebuke of the black church at large in regard to

liberalism and feminism.

And the pastor, after Farrakhan was finished, saying that his

pulpit is always open to Dr. Farrakhan or Minister Farrakhan.

And it's quite amazing that people who profess to be Christian would be welcoming

a man who is the enemy of Christianity into their pulpits.

And by the way, I do have to say that Farrakhan was describing himself as a type of

Christian, which was another thing that astonished me.

Can you comment on those things?

Absolutely.

That's a good word, too, that you brought up.

Is this Baptist minister, should he

be seen as a pastor or as a...

We, even with Farrakhan, who claims to now and then have been a Christian, being

a Baptist, and with others,

we really don't know unless we ask the right

how to...

I'm speaking directly to

this pastor.

I don't know.

Your

name

could go to the

pulpit.

Christianity.

And I would also put the coin when he claims, if he were ever in front of me

claiming to be a Christian, I would ask him,

what's the Trinity?

Holy God, holy man, the only way...

Then we'd get...

Now, was

that a novel thing that he did, identifying himself as a Christian?

Oh, no, no, no, no.

Matter of fact, I

even had

to up 2 ,000.

As long as he's a member of the nation of Islam and holding to Elijah Muhammad,

he really, he is not a Christian.

Oh, I know that he's not a Christian, but I mean, is it novel that he would identify himself.

Publicly as a Christian?

No, it's not novel.

He's done that.

The...

I don't know if you've ever read the biography of George Lincoln Rockwell, who is the

founder of the American Nazi Party in the 50s.

Hate, it's called, H -A -T -E, George Lincoln Rockwell and the American Nazi Party.

Fascinating book, and it goes into the very bizarre

and unlikely bedfellows that you would find with white

racist groups that would freely use the N -word to

describe the black race and so on, and

advocate all kinds of violent and grotesque behavior against them.

There was a great connection made between the

nation of Islam and the American Nazi Party, and they invited George Lincoln Rockwell at least once, I think

even more than once, to speak for them, and I believe it was at the Madison Square Garden

event that George Lincoln Rockwell was invited to speak by them, and he and his fellow American

Nazis were the only whites in the audience, and he had a roaring applause afterwards because of the

similarity that they were both segregationists and were very opposed to

the liberal policies in the United States regarding integration, and if you could comment on that

bizarre affinity that they had.

Well, interestingly too, if you're.

A newcomer into the study of the nation of Islam, you would think the

readings were on the same page as Martin

Luther King, for example, but really they're not.

They had a tremendous dissipation because he was indeed

not a segregationist.

What you

are saying

is that we

want our people in America, whose parents are grandparents, to be allowed to

establish a separate state.

Is there still a so -called friendly relationship today between

white racist groups in the nation.

Of Islam?

I don't know for sure the answer to that.

I apologize.

Okay, and so you're saying.

That the nation of Islam, other than that, which I just mentioned,

is pretty much the same organization that was founded by Elijah Muhammad and his teachings and his

practice?

Yes, indeed,.

Just a visit.

Having read, if you've read my book, and then visit noi .org, you'll see that the same.

Beliefs are listed.

What is the public view and statements regarding our current

president, Barack Obama, since he is an African -American, and

obviously in many ways has views far to the left of the beliefs of the

nation of Islam?

Do they condemn him as a traitor, or how do they view him?

Or do they applaud the fact that he is the first black president?

How do they view the.

Situation?

They would definitely

applaud him, although he's

not

particularly

in

field.

Yeah,.

I guess it would be other than some of the more overtly liberal things that

Reverend White and his denomination, the United Church of Christ, in favor of

homosexuality and feminism and so on.

I'm assuming that the nation of Islam would be in opposition to those.

Points.

That's correct, but on paper, there's one

thing.

It's one thing.

In other words, on paper,

they should be believing such

and such.

We have John from Bangor, Maine,.

Asking if he knows why Malcolm X's daughter made peace

with Louis Farrakhan after originally believing Farrakhan was a part of the

assassination of her father.

Cannot comment.

Sorry.

Okay, but you did hear about that.

They had some kind of a reunion years ago, did you not?

Yes, I did.

I did hear about it, but do not have sufficient knowledge.

And what, if any, can you tell us about, or

if anything, I should say, about other branches of

black racist religious groups.

That have perhaps sprung out

of

the nation

of

Islam?

Yeah,

it may get an

example of this

that you do

have.

You

were just

speaking

about

Elijah

Muhammad's

son

before who went...

Yes, I'm sorry.

Waliduddin Muhammad, correct.

Right, right.

Did he become a full -fledged member of orthodox Islam, or was it just still an offshoot of

some kind?

He was converted.

Okay, so it was more of the mainstream world religion of Islam.

Correct, correct.

And so that is quite fascinating that his own son would depart from that group.

It is.

And in fact, what you were saying before,

when Malcolm X visited Mecca, as the Spike Lee film

depicts accurately, he saw the falsehood of the religion that he

embraced largely because of its racism, and he realized that Muslims were

multiracial and that this was being hidden from them, correct?

Yes, yes.

And what can you tell us in the remaining minutes that you most want to unburden your heart about, that

you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners?

You never know in the providence of God if this, especially when

it's a podcast, archived on the Iron Trepans Iron website, may fall into the

hands, as it were, or into the ears of a member of the Nation of Islam, or somebody who

has family members or loved ones in the Nation of Islam.

What do you have to really say to us as your listeners today?

Yeah.

Thank you for that, Ellis.

Yes, I know, Carl.

I know, Carl.

Okay.

And of course, for our listeners, he

states, not black,

do the homework, endeavor as much as you can to understand their

beliefs and what makes them be a great witness to

them.

So what I'd like to share is that it's not my book.

Read something on the Nation of

Islam to understand

the time to study.

And in that

context...

And I'm assuming that one thing we need to do is

separate those.

Who have, in the name of Christ, said, wrote, and had actually

practiced atrocious things against the black race and against black individuals.

We have to separate that from what actually is taught in the scriptures, that

God's people are from every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and that

the fact that we have to view the fact that the Nation of Islam,

in some ways, is actually apparently thriving on the notion

of the failures of the black church at large, succumbing to liberalism, and

the matriarchal, female -led atmosphere of the church at

large in the African -American community, that is really something that they prey upon, from my

understanding, and we have to reveal to them that this is not what the scriptures teach,

correct?

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

In Christ, there is one blood, and there is no white or black

slave nor free, if I can loosely paraphrase, that all in Christ we

are one, and we can live that, we can preach that, we can

state all the while that, yes, atrocities have occurred to blacks at the

hands of white bigots, and that we

have the healing blood of Jesus Christ, which makes humanity

of all who call on the name of Jesus with glory, triune God.

Yes, amen, and one should never reject Jesus Christ because of Judas, so

regardless of what any wicked man has done or said or written in the name of Christ does

not mean that we should reject what is in the inspired and errant word of God, and even when

godly men in other respects have said or written racist things, we have

to recognize that all men are sinners, and at the same time not overlook and

candy -coat the sins that they commit, whether in.

Thought, word, or deed.

We are called to live holy lives, and we don't want to downplay that.

We are the saints of God if we are in Christ Jesus, but also it's a wonderful

thing that Christianity rests upon who Jesus is and what he has done, and it is

to him that the world should.

Look for the true answer.

Amen, and do you care to provide any contact information for our listeners?

Well, once again, if you'd like to visit our website, Sound Doctrine Ministries, which is sd, for

Sound Doctrine, min, for Ministries, dot

com or dot org,

sdmin, and mine included, on the Nation of Islam so we can understand

better this movement and reach out to them.

With Christ's love.

Yes, in fact, I know that the book is available from Amazon still, even though it's out of print, so

you could spell your last name for our listeners so they can look it up.

Properly.

Well, I'll do it just as the way when I talk to telemarketers.

T as in Tom, S as in Sam, O -U -K, A

-L, O -U -K,

A -L as in Sam.

Yes, and that's the Nation of Islam, and you can get that from.

Amazon.

Thank you so much for being on the broadcast today, Dr. Tsoukalos.

We look forward to you coming back.

I want to thank everybody who listened, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far

greater Savior than you are a sinner.

We hope you tune in tomorrow to Iron Sharpens Iron.