October 7, 2015 Show with Stephen Atkinson on “How Those Outside of the USA View American Christianity” PLUS Steven Tsouklas on “The Nation of Islam”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions.

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Now here's our host Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon

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Cumberland County Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth.

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We're listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arntzen your host of Iron Sharpens Iron wishing you all a happy Wednesday on the seventh day of October 2015 and for those of you who are expecting

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Michael Haken to be in our program today as we had previously announced Michael Haken who is a world -renowned

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Christian historian and author and professor and conference speaker brilliant brother in Christ.

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Well he had an unforeseen urgent matter to deal with today and had to reschedule his interview to sometime within the next two weeks so we are apologizing for that on behalf of our dear brother

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Michael Haken and also yesterday at the end of yesterday's program I accidentally announced that Ken Ham was going to be on today.

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Ken Ham the world -renowned creationist apologist from back to Genesis well he was never going to be on today he was supposed to be on and is going to be on God willing next

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Wednesday October 14th and I just accidentally looked at the wrong area of the calendar when

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I said that right at the end of yesterday's program so but I'm sure you won't be disappointed nonetheless because of the lineup we have today and I thank these brethren that we have as guests today for filling in last minute for me.

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First of all we have returning to the Iron Sharpens Iron program today Stephen Atkinson who's originally from Northern Ireland and he is currently the

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North American Director of Ministry for a Christian Witness to Israel.

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Following Stephen's hour on the program we are going to have a guest that appeared on the old

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Iron Sharpens Iron program and I'm delighted to have him back to the new broadcast for the first time

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Stephen Tsoukalas and he is going to be speaking about the nation of Islam.

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I'm not talking about the world religion known as Islam that millions of Muslims adhere to globally

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I'm talking about the specific cult that was born here in America the nation of Islam currently headed by Louis Farrakhan and due to the fact that they are having another million man march apparently this weekend in Washington DC and Mr.

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Farrakhan is calling for African Americans to tear down the

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American flag. We thought that it'd be appropriate to educate our listeners during the second hour on exactly what the nation of Islam is.

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So I hope you stay tuned for the second half of the broadcast as well but first let me welcome back a new friend of mine and I'm looking forward to many years of friendship with him and laboring with him for the cause of the gospel as many years as the

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Lord will permit. It's an honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Stephen Atkinson.

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Well thank you Chris it's a delight to be back with you it seems like no time at all I was sitting in your room doing this live and now

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I'm back in Arkansas and doing it once again it is it's a privilege and when

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I hear that introduction of these world -renowned leaders I just wonder why you're calling me.

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But it is a privilege to be back with you I'm very glad to help I'm very glad to stand in for Michael Aiken I know

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Michael and I hope to visit with them up in Toronto at some point but I'm very happy to be here standing today.

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Yes and I'm very happy that you were able to do so and before we even get further into the interview

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I just have to read to you all what I think is a hilarious commendation for my program that I just received today from Todd Friel.

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Todd Friel as many of you may know is the host of Wretched TV and Wretched Radio and he's an author and I had the honor and privilege to have him yesterday on my program.

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Well here is what Todd had to say about me. My mind sharpens iron uh let's see um let's see it was my pleasure yesterday wait a minute

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I somehow missed I somehow lost his uh his thing here hold on a second

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I'm sorry ladies and gentlemen I had it right in front of me oh here it is here we go Todd Friel here says spending 30 minutes on air with Chris Arnzen is like riding a bull in a rodeo without a clown to save you fast hard challenging and somebody somebody inevitably gets stepped on it was a gas

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I don't know what he feels like well uh excuse me folks if I seem a little bit frazzled today

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I just literally got Stephen Atkinson to agree to do the program today about five minutes before the show started so my mind is not quite where it should be right now but I thank you for your patience but um

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Stephen before we go into our specific topic today which is a controversial one and kind of goes right hand in hand with what

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Todd Friel had to say about Iron Sharpens Iron uh you were going to speak on today uh what those outside the

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U .S. think about American Christianity or what the view is of those outside of the

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USA about American Christianity and before we go into that if you could please give us a little bit more background about Christian witness to Israel I know that you already did that at great length on previous interviews but there are some people who are perhaps tuning in for the very first time well for those that haven't heard of Christian witness to Israel before let me give you the very brief and potted history but we we began we are a ministry to the

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Jewish people we are a reformed ministry to the Jewish people that came out of really a theological burden of the

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Scottish Presbyterians of the 1830s our first meeting was held in November 1842 in London and Robert Murray McShane was present at that meeting to open in prayer we've also had notable worthies preach for us over the years such as C .H.

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Spurgeon and really it has been the the burden and the drive of a theology driving the mistheology

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I think that's you know if I can just again talk very briefly just on on that my concern as I come to the

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United States is to see that indeed our theology drives our mistheology but if we have an impoverished theology either generally or pertaining to the

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Jewish people to Israel the people if we have a diminished theology there then we will have a diminished or a disorientated mistheology in other words if we don't get the belief right we'll we'll get the practice wrong if we don't get the belief right on on what the bible teaches about Israel then we'll get our mission to Israel wrong and so I've stressed if I did last week when

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I was with you I've stressed that our mission is quite simply to bring the gospel back to the people and 42 % of those people live in the

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United States and so my burden my work is to awaken the conscience of the

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Christian church challenge the church to be engaged with their Jewish neighbors and so far as I'm able to equip the church to bring resources and seminars and teaching to assist the church in the local community that we really have church -based mission we have church -based mission reaching the ancient people on our own doorstep so we are a historic mission but as I said repeatedly we don't rest on our historic laurels we have some very very fine men who have kind of signed along the dotted line with us and endorsed us and for that I'm very grateful as well because it cuts through a lot of the clutter and mess of the whole subject of Israel and Jewish missions in particular but with with some good men behind us in the past and in the present

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I would go forward to bring that gospel to the Jewish people here in the United States and today as I said our topic is what those outside of the

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USA think of American Christianity or how those outside of the

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USA view American Christianity and obviously a very controversial subject some people some people may be offended by some things that are said but I think that these kinds of things are important so in fact years ago

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I conducted an interview with a liberal

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Roman Catholic because he wrote a book called Holy Land USA and it was basically

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I think the subtitle was a Catholic ride across America's evangelical landscape and the reason

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I did that interview is because I wanted to hear how an outsider outside of evangelical

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Christianity viewed evangelical Christianity and this

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Catholic author Peter Feuerherd who as I said is a liberal and openly liberal identifies himself as a liberal

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Catholic he basically what what he found in many of the

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American evangelical churches according to him in fact I will quote when he was referring to the mega churches he said you will find most often more thus saith

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Oprah than thus saith scripture and the thing that was quite interesting being a liberal he was happy about that and I thought it was a fascinating interview myself and I told him that I agreed with his analysis of the evangelical landscape in America but I was not happy with his findings as he was

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I was very disturbed by his findings although lamenting that I had to agree with him but that is kind of the mindset that I had today in a different way

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I know that you are a obviously a bible -believing Christian but you're also theologically reformed as I am and you come from the

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UK Northern Ireland specifically and you have been living there most of your life in the

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UK as a Christian for many of those years and I just wanted to have some discussion today about the view of many of those that you have come to speak with and meet and know and and worship with and labor with for the gospel what they are their opinions are of American Christianity and this what kind of sparked this in my head this idea is that there was a brother

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I'm not going to mention his name but a brother in Christ in the UK who posted something on my

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Facebook page he was disturbed by myself and other

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Christians saying very negative things about a speech that President Barack Obama gave right at the right in the aftermath of the recent horrific massacre or executions by a crazed gunman in Roseburg Oregon and he immediately in fact openly stated that he intended to politicize this horrific event and it was obvious he was talking about gun control which has always been a part of his platform and myself and other evangelicals were talking about the hypocrisy of Mr.

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Obama attacking law -abiding gun -owning citizens of the

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United States and somewhat making it clear that we in America who believe in gun owner rights and who are against gun control laws especially those from the left of the aisle there he was clearly insinuating that this was the root of the problem and yet this man is also totally in favor of murdering unborn children in the womb and in fact partially born children and so this brother in Christ from the

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UK was standing up at least for the comments of President Obama in regard to gun control and he was he was criticizing myself and other

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Christians who were bringing up his hypocrisy so that I just wanted to give you a little background of what sparked this but before we even go into some of the criticisms that you may have of the

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United States perhaps you could start with Christianity in the United States that the the things that you admire about it and seek to emulate and imitate and so on well you know

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I think that one of the things I learned and the older I get the less

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I know and in that sense in that you know I think we're very very quick to speak we're very quick to make judgments we're very quick to make generalizations in our ignorance of situations on the other side of the world

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I have had the privilege of ministering in in Northern Ireland for a good portion of my life

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I had five years in England I've with CWI since 2004 and I've traveled from the highlands of Scotland through to the the south coast of England and to Wales to the extremities of Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland and you know

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I can say that I am increasingly slow to speak at such generalizations and therefore when

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I come on here and you you're asking me to make pronouncements I have to put that disclaimer right and let folks know

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I have had some experience of the church scene in the

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UK and the US I've been traveling over here to the US since so well about 15 years and although I've only lived here just just over three years and I think also it would be helpful perhaps that your listeners would would realize that the

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UK is not all the same you know we the United Kingdom is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and so there are regional differences even regional differences in the church between England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and then

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Ireland or Southern Ireland is a whole different country and a whole different deal when it comes to the church as well and I think that there are things that are good and there are things that are not so good and I think one of the things that we again in the

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UK there's often an ignorance of the American church scene and you find that there are those sweeping statements made uh there's the good the bad and the ugly in every in every land and in every uh church scene uh the the difficulty with well maybe not a difficulty but uh the thing about the

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US is that you have everything bigger yes you know that and therefore the good is bigger uh the bad is bigger and the downright ugly is bigger as well and so when we when we make these statements we see things and seeing things from the

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United Kingdom we see things as we see the bad and we see and again

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I think that we need to recognize that there are certain personalities and characteristics of the

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English culture the Scottish culture the Northern Irish culture that makes you make pronouncements and sometimes there is an attitude that tends towards negativity and if we can make negative pronouncements about others then it can make us seem rather reasonable and rather good and I find that to be the case sometimes as well so all of this is really just kind of setting the ground as it were for uh for any pronouncements that I might make um and and in some way having something of a disclaimer because um

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I am making some some I will be uh just as I as I speak even now I'll be making some uh observations and some subjective statements that may be sweeping may not be uh totally true but are simply um my uh my analysis of how

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I find the situation and I think also you know we're we're in the Reformed camp we're we're coming from a uh you know a blessed situation some of us uh maybe some have and maybe some of your listeners have have only come into Reformed theology fairly recently um there is a danger that we then uh become arrogant and and thinking well now we know it we've we've got the five points nailed we know it and uh these these uh others that are less uh well taught by by these other churches well you know we we look down our noses upon them and so all of that you know into the mix

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I think we need to be careful and certainly if we're Calvinists we believe in adoptions of grace and what

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I have and what knowledge I have and what understanding I have and even what observation I might make is all by the grace of God and therefore

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I am I will be very happy to to enter into the pronouncements or even some of the observations that are that are um you know more ugly um but I think we also need to to look at what

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God is doing what the kingdom work is overall and I see both the negative and the positive okay well start out with the positive it might be better to do work it that way

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I'm very happy to do that you know and I'm happy to do that because sometimes you know when folks from the

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UK make their pronouncements it is often in the negative and and so I'm very happy to to come and and say that you know that this is a country that has huge potential and I really mean huge potential for the gospel and you know

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I think as I've shared even last week when I was with you a huge potential for Jewish mission as we narrow the focus for the specific work that I'm involved in there there is a huge potential um your listeners

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I'm sure you also know the book by Patrick Johnson called Operation World where he really has an analysis of the the evangelical scene or the the church scene all around the world and and he said

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I've got a quote in front of me actually right now from him where he says in in Operation World we are living in the time of the largest in gathering of people into the kingdom that the world has ever seen and then he makes a comment concerning the

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United States and he says no other continent has such a wealth of Christians churches agencies and available tools and means for evangelizing their own continent and the world in other words you know a guy that has analyzed the world

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I'm coming here with observations from the UK and the US but someone that that has a greater handle on the whole church scene good bad and ugly all around the world and he he says that no other continent has such a wealth of Christians churches agencies and tools and means for evangelizing the

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US and the rest of the world I think that's a wonderful statement a challenging statement but one that that gives me optimism as I have the privilege of preaching on so many churches to stirring to stir the church to to recognize our calling and be about our father's business and what has what is the main contrast you see in a positive way between what you've experienced in Christianity here and and overseas now that you live here uh

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I think one of the the great positives and this sounds this sounds really mercenary because I'm in a not -for -profit mission and I'm I'm uh you know desiring to raise funds but I I would have to say off the bat that there is a generosity of spirit among the

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Lord's people in the United States that I haven't seen elsewhere now if you know my

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UK brethren may say well they've got more money over there well maybe that's the case but I've I've found that there is yes there is more disposable wealth yes there is more availability of some funds but I have seen some wonderful examples of generosity at all levels from the widow's mite through to you know the large sum and I think that that kind of generosity in the

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American church scene is something that needs to be recognized uh and praised and and need promoted and used um you know

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I'm not saying that this is where my my brethren back home will uh could could pick up a wrong vibe

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I'm not saying that we're all uh stingy Scots Irish you know back home but there there is a sense in which what

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I have seen over here is a generous uh generosity pertaining to to finance a generosity pertaining to folks welcome and and and just the the hospitality having said that Irish hospitality is legendary obviously and and the hospitality of of my

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UK brethren is is also very noteworthy I think what I would have to you know make clear too that as I said we we have a very different church scene in the

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United Kingdom and Northern Ireland is Bible Belt Europe and as I've said to you know several people over here in that like hundred miles by a hundred miles somewhere around that region you're gonna have a thousand bible -believing churches in that that hundred mile square um

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Scotland is is losing something of its reformed witness of a bygone year

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England has seriously lost its way although there are some good efforts at uh regaining lost ground uh

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Southern Ireland would be 90 percent Catholic and and and increasing the amount of that is just secular but again as I traveled into the side of Ireland I saw a number of church plants beginning and many of them were

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American church planters so and Michael Hagen indeed could could uh you know speak to this and maybe if you you can talk to him about this next time when he's on because uh he has been entering into conversations with the

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Baptists in the Cork region of Ireland and I think they are planning on setting some kind of outpost of Southern Baptist Seminary in Cork so that some courses may be done in Cork Ireland again in my time with CWI I traveled a lot all over Ireland and quite a number of Baptist churches in the

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Cork region and it was such an encouragement just to see in that darkness of of Roman Ireland or more accurate really now is is secular

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Ireland uh there is a burden for the lost um and it's very much coming from the

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American church looking at the needs of of the home countries another uh wonderful example of that kind of was made clear to me by a number of guys from over here who were church planting in England you know as I said my own history is that I was ministering in Cambridge England in the 90s and I was part of a newly formed denomination called the

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Evangelical Presbyterian Church in England and Wales and I was privileged to be a part of that for for five years but what

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I'm seeing is that that denomination is continuing and growing and has several church planters from America and the the point that is being made to me is by these

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American church planters is that we in America have been the beneficiary of good theology for decades centuries perhaps even and but now

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England is is a mess theologically and so these these guys these church planters from the

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U .S. are saying it's not time for the United States to pay back uh and I again that thrills my heart and it's that kind of generosity of spirit uh and sacrificial uh generosity that that will up and move and go to to uh darkest

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England as it were to bring the gospel back to those in seed that in some ways brought it to the states so that kind of uh generosity and that kind of sense of we are privileged in the

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United States with what we have let's use our resources let's use our manpower sometimes the impression is given and I need to let you cut in here but sometimes the impression is given in the

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UK that America takes all the best you know all these big churches will just take all our great preachers and bring them all over the states and they'll have a very comfortable life uh that that's not how it is and again those are just negative assessments coming from a negativity that quite frankly

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I I I'm I'm I just don't like it at all I think we need to encourage one another we need to build one another up uh within the kingdom of Christ uh across the pond

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UK to the United States United States the UK we we uh are serving a great

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God and his call to us will place us wherever he would have us to be placed and we're going to be going to a break right now and you can pick up where you left off if you'd like to join us on the air with a question for Stephen Atkinson about how those outside of the

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USA view American Christianity our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

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c h r i s a r n z e n at gmail .com and whether you agree with our guest whether you disagree with our guest whether you have negative things to say about Christianity uh from your observation uh

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Christianity in the in the United States or whether you want to bolster a positive view of American Christianity we would love to hear from you we'd especially love to hear from you if you live outside of the

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USA and I know we have many listeners in the UK and other parts of the world chrisarnson at gmail .com

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chrisarnson at gmail .com and chrisarnzen at gmail .com

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please give us at least your first name and the city and state that you're residing in and the country where you reside if you live outside the

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USA don't go away we'll be right back with Stephen Atkinson I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries the

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Chris Arnzen if you just tuned us in for the last half hour our guest has been and he will be for the next half hour

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Stephen Atkinson who is the North American director of ministry for a

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Christian witness to Israel CWI is how it is known and their website is

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CWINA .org that's Christian witness to Israel North America dot org

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CWINA .org we have been discussing how those outside of the

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United States of America view American Christianity and we were just concluding with some of the positive things that our guest who is a native of Northern Ireland has been saying about Christianity I know one of the negative things that probably popped into your head is these bloody

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Americans and their commercials during Christian radio that's one of the things that I need to survive so that's this is market driven

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America you see well if you could continue I don't know if you want to continue with anything positive or if you want to go straight for the juggler vein and start talking about negative things well

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I'm happy to talk about either I don't know if you've had any emails or callers that want us to take off at a different angle but I was thinking just in the break that there you know if you want to identify some negative

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I said there is a huge potential and what saddens me greatly is when individuals congregations nations even don't reach their full potential and the reason we don't reach our potential is because of the sinfulness of our own hearts and I think one of the things that that I have noticed even as I come over here that is really just part of your culture and part of even of your history that is different from the

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UK is that there is a sense of the pioneer spirit which is good when when it's used for for kingdom purposes so if you get some guy that really wants to go at it and he can preach and teach and he can go forward but with that pioneer spirit sometimes there's a lack of accountability and therefore the you can you can set up church anywhere with very little accountability and so charlatans and and you know some of the crazy you may say can set up church and gather around themselves those with the 18 years and the person will will give them whatever they want to hear and that kind of comes part of that good pioneer spirit right and a good emphasis on personal choice but doesn't but lacks that balance the biblical balance of mutual submission in the lord to your brethren and and that sense of accountability to one another yes yes yeah yeah

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I was just going to say that a lot of that comes from one of the most ingrained and deeply rooted things that Americans and American Christians especially cherish although obviously not all of us but but those who believe in a free church in a free state who at least from history know that it is never a good idea for a denomination to have tyranny over all other

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Christians and enforce upon you uh obedience to them at all costs even if it's you know even in light of disagreement on serious issues that arise and uh now is this maverick spirit or this lone wolf spirit obviously since you're talking about this coming out of the

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American pioneer spirit is this something that is much more prevalent over here than in the UK and other places of the world that you've

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I think I think that's uh undoubtedly I think that kind of spirit is uh it's one of those uh you know good bad and the ugly that then grows large in the

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United States I think uh there is uh an obsession with self which again sadly

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I think it's all of these good things which then can be twisted Satan can twist uh to our ruin yes um you know

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I go to the grocery store and I see you know 47 varieties of big beans uh and you know back in the

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UK you get maybe three you can't get up I have 47 varieties in my closet oh yeah

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I'll not go there you just have an endless amount of choice because it is a market driven

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America you want to put it in that way and therefore there is a sense that everyone believes that they are born with this entitlement to choice and the entitlement to the pursuits of life liberty happiness and really it is the entitlement to a sinful life a false liberty and and the pursuit of perverse happiness if you want to put it in those terms and that's the kind of ugly side that where sin takes a hold of that which is good namely that kind of individualism and the pioneer spirit and the go for it and make it happen and get it done all of those good things can then be abused um as our sinful nature uh you know takes uh takes a downward spiral rather than the upward spiral one of one of the things that I've noticed as I come over here you know we joked a little earlier about the uh advertisements that that are on your radio program well you know

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I I'm just amazed at the ton of advertisements that are on the television and and some of them you know quite frankly are just absolutely ridiculous and and you wonder is anyone gullible enough to actually um listen to those but obviously you know some folks are but one that that really strikes me is and it gets to the core even of this issue that we're talking about and is that when you know medication comes up and it says tell your doctor about such and such tell your doctor about this or tell your doctor about that you really need to go and tell your doctor well that's totally foreign to a uk mindset because when we when we go to the doctor in the united kingdom we we go because they are the experts you know they have studied for six seven nine whatever years to become the expert and and I want them to fix me not me to tell them how

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I'm going to be fixed now that really I suppose comes to the nub of that some of the differences that that I have you know observed as I come over here um

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I I don't want someone to tell me how to preach I've been preaching for 30 years

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I trust by the grace of god I have some aptitude to do that but if you have a spirit that is self -obsessed that person will come to the preaching and you've got to tell me what

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I need to hear what will make me feel good and again because it's market driven and if I can put it bums on seats then you know we we need to give a message that will uh appeal to the people and therefore that kind of takes us down the downward spiral uh into the pleasing pastor who gets the crowds in and gives them what they want so you know again it goes back to those good things those good um observations which can just be twisted and perverted and lead us astray and lead us into sin

43:34

I do think there's a huge potential but it will demand us coming back to the scriptures it will demand the pastors being willing not to give the people what they want but rather give the people what they should have and and instead of uh checking everything by the dollar sign or even by the numbers in our congregations but bring it to the touchstone of the word of god whatever the numbers whatever the dollar and I want to just add something about those who advertise in my program uh it should be known that these folks that advertise with me the first and foremost priority in their minds is that the gospel is spread and that this show remains on the air very few of them have a grandiose idea or misconception about making a lot of money from these ads or getting a lot of business

44:31

I hope they do get a lot of business to help uh return the good that they've done to me but I just wanted to make it clear to my audience that I know all of these advertisers personally and I know that they're godly men and uh have the right motives involved in even sponsoring a show like this so I just wanted to make that uh clear to our listeners um

44:53

I I'm sure you would agree that um that one of the things that's unique about the

45:00

United States is we are more culturally and ethnically and racially diverse than any other nation in the world and we also have a lot of freedoms that aren't in existence in a lot of a lot of places and and freedom which is a wonderful thing often has negative baggage

45:23

I mean when you think about I have heard Roman Catholic apologists blame every evil in the world on the

45:33

Protestant Reformation because uh sola scriptura in their minds is a blueprint for anarchy and all of these liberal denominations have have popped up all over the globe and they blame that on the

45:49

Reformation and they also even blame the liberalism within the

45:54

Catholic Church on the free spirit that was spawned by the

46:00

Reformation now some of that may even be true but whenever you have freedom because men are born totally depraved you're going to have people misusing that that freedom and the the alternative is not better to have a tyrannical church like Rome was and even the

46:18

Church of England in the past was where the the streets ran red with blood if you disagreed with them that's not a better option

46:27

I mean do you agree with that or not absolutely absolutely you know in all of these things it's simply taking taking the the wrong extreme and taking that which could be good and could be better and abusing it

46:44

I'm thinking as you speak of tyranny yeah I've spoken some of the ill regarding uh the

46:50

U .S. I better balance that out with some of the ill observant observations in the

46:56

UK and you know I find in churches there can be that can be tyranny in the

47:01

UK churches and it can be a tyranny of the minority and there can be that attitude of a few people and I've seen pastors and sometimes

47:11

I've had to sit alongside pastors and weep with them where you know there have been individuals in the congregation that just drive the pastor nuts because he's just there's just this tyranny of a few people and the good gracious humble rest of the congregation uh are are remaining quiet because they you know they're living their quiet godly lives and and those that those that bark the loudest are those that ultimately you know create that kind of tyranny the other thing that I've you know if I can again make a comparison because over here you know everything's bigger in the

47:50

United States and certainly that that is true although we have some sizable congregations in Northern Ireland as well that number in the thousands so people need to realize

47:59

Northern Ireland Bible Belt Europe keep getting keep keep that into your mind um but there is also an attitude amongst some and I suppose it can cross the the pond as well that small is beautiful and particularly in our our reformed camp we can sometimes think that all we've got to do is to retreat into our little reformed monasteries and and discuss theological questions and and we'll all gather together and discuss superlapsarianism that's our that's our kingdom work uh it challenges me to see some small churches um just thinking that well where we are we are the people and we are and you know we're doing what's right and they're comfortable and content with that smallness not you don't get me wrong

48:51

I am I am not advocating this theology absolutely not I'm not advocating we just have this speaker sensitive approach to everything and get the numbers in but I think on the opposite extreme the same rule applies where our sin takes over and even we have that arrogant pride that we are better than that other street down or other church down the street and that other church has got a thousand and we've got 50 and we're better because our theology is better well

49:20

I have to question and I again it may be that the theology is better but I have to question why are the numbers small why is the lord not blessing why are you not reaching out to to the lost in your community some of us will travel 30 50 100 miles to go to a theological conference and won't travel 30 50 100 feet to talk to someone else about the lord that's that's a problem that we have well it's a problem we have right across the christian world but we would have that to some degree in the uk and I think that's uh where here there is a there's certainly a greater openness particularly maybe more in the southern states maybe the more conservative states there is an openness to to wear the badge where to wear the t -shirt or you know to speak okay to bow in prayer in the restaurants there's a little of that that goes on back home but I would see a lot more of that in the united states so good and bad on on both sides but I think on balance

50:23

I would keep saying that this country has a huge potential as patrick johnson said for evangelizing your own continent and the rest of the world by the way

50:34

I can re recall uh having a meeting at the radio station where I used to work in the 90s and early 2000s uh and uh one a part of one of the largest in fact the largest christian network in the world and we had a visitor that day in our conference room uh the sales staff had a meeting uh with with the general manager of a new christian station in london because it was a very new thing in england apparently at that time where the laws were changed and they were given the freedom to have christian radio uh in the premier christian radio it could have been

51:18

I don't remember yeah but the this general manager came uh to the states to visit with christian radio stations that had success and he wanted to learn from us and so on and I said to this man uh you know

51:35

I always wanted to visit london especially to see the metropolitan tabernacle and he said pardon me

51:40

I said the metropolitan tabernacle sorry I'm not following you the metropolitan tabernacle well charles haddon spurgeon was the pastor in the 19th century

51:49

I'm sorry who man didn't know what wow who chose virgin or the metropolitan tabernacle and his station was in london how the heck how is that possible well it depends what circle you walk in I suppose and you know you might feel that because you've suddenly got this and you find opportunity um that and you think that you've got all the the tools of the gospel uh one of the sad realities and it's it's not again just uk or us it's it's across the board is that lack of understanding not only of theology but of church history and that that saddens me deeply because we owe a great debt we stand on the on the shoulders of those that went before and those that bore that torch and and even bore that torch and went to their death for that and we need to know our church history and we need to know why people died for what they believed because it may come a time in the future when we will have to do exactly the same now what uh words of counsel do you have for both our uh american listeners and our uk and overseas listeners and listeners in canada uh what do you have to say to all of us as a word of counsel regarding everything that you've said in summary again this might sound um it might sound heretical to some but the older I get the more

53:32

I want to see likeness to christ in individuals and in churches um

53:39

I'm not I'm not sure if I showed you but I'm a card -carrying calvinist I I quite literally am a card -carrying calvinist a good brother in the baptist church in kansas gave me a little card with the five points on it and it and it says at the top a card -carrying calvinist so I'm there that's where I am but you know we are not justified by the five points we're not justified by our cerebral knowledge of the intricacies of the faith and how well we can speak of the order salutis we are justified by faith alone in christ alone we are justified by the work that he has done and our work in terms of our sanctification working out our salvation with fear and trembling for it is god working with us to will and to do his good pleasure our work is to grow in the likeness to jesus christ and what

54:36

I want to see more and more as I travel widely is not can you identify the the aspects of the faith and can you um give me all the theological intricacies of all the doctrines but what is your image of christ and how is that developing because ultimately we are to be like him and ultimately my future your future and the future of those that know the lord is simply to be like him and what

55:05

I want to see grow in the american church the uk church is yes substantiality back in our preaching yes substantiality of doctrine not this silly nonsense and not the superficiality but rather deep and profound and substantial christianity but above all

55:27

I want to see deep and profound and substantial christian living which I suppose goes back to what

55:33

I said earlier your your theology will drive your missiology what you believe will drive what how you behave and I think we need to get our preachers and pastors back to the main things and preaching uh the gospel and preaching the word of god instead of being man pleasers and preaching soothing social messages and when we get the preachers back to that and we get the people listening and hungry for the word of god then we will grow by the word of god because it is our food and drink it is our meat and as we grow in that closer walk with god then we pray your kingdom come your will be done on earth as it is in heaven we can turn a world upside down those who were disciples of christ in a former age turned the world upside down and so I again retain that optimism because I believe optimistically in the gospel of our glorious god amen brother uh very well said and uh

56:38

I just want you now in about two minutes to remind our listeners how they can get in touch with you and also how they could invite you to speak and support the mission of CWI North America well one of the privilege

56:54

I have is is to get invited to speak in many different churches and I travel 30 to 40 ,000 miles a year by car and I listen to a lot of good podcasts including

57:06

Iron Sharpens Iron while I'm doing my driving so people can get in touch with me at the website cwina .org

57:16

or if you are on Facebook and you want to check where I'm going to be in week after week at facebook .com

57:23

again then slash cwina and or you can write to cwinamerica at gmail .com

57:34

cwinamerica at gmail .com but I would love to visit with you or if either folks want to contact you and I know you'll pass on the email to us

57:43

I would love to visit and speak at those unsearchable riches of Christ and challenge the church to remember the ancient people and bring the gospel back to those that brought it to us amen and I do want to speak with you at some point tonight or or very soon

58:01

I am prayerfully considering relaunching a pastor's luncheon that I used to conduct every year near Christmas time where I treated pastors absolutely free of charge to lunch and we had a speaker every year.

58:17

There is such a thing as a free lunch then? Yes there is and hopefully

58:22

I'll be able to organize that again and I would love to have you as the first speaker to relaunch my luncheon and this was something that was brainchild of my late wife

58:33

Julie who one year said to me instead of giving each other

58:39

Christmas presents why don't we start treating pastors to lunch every year since you have so many friends that are pastors more than anybody

58:46

I know and we started doing that and it lasted for about a decade and she went home to be with the

58:53

Lord and this will be the first luncheon that I am relaunching if God enables it since her going home to glory so I would love for you to be a part of that if you are able and I'll discuss more of the details with you later.

59:08

I purposely put you on spot in public so you'll have no way of wriggling out of it without looking back.

59:14

Would I ever want to wriggle out of that? What a wonderful opportunity and what a wonderful privilege to be able to assist you in that way brother and I thank you for assisting us in our ministry as well and for your hospitality that I received from you when

59:27

I visited there last week. Great well I look forward to having you back very soon on the Iron Sherpa's Iron broadcast brother.

59:34

Thank you very much I'll talk to you soon Chris. All right God bless you and don't go away because we have

59:40

Stephen Sokolos coming up after these messages speaking about the nation of Islam especially since Louis Farrakhan is planning another million man march

59:51

I believe this weekend in Washington DC. So don't go away we'll be right back after these messages.

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01:01:49

that's linbrookbaptist .org Welcome back this is Chris Arnzen. If you've just tuned us in our second guest today is

01:01:58

Stephen Soukalos. Stephen teaches in the area of world religions and theology at Wheaton College in Wheaton Illinois.

01:02:08

He's earned master's degrees in at Harvard University and Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary and his

01:02:15

PhD in theology at the University of Birmingham United Kingdom. He's a part of Sound Doctrine Ministries a ministry to non -christian and pseudo -christian religions.

01:02:28

Sound Doctrine Ministries website is sdmin .com that's sd for sound doctrine min for ministries .com

01:02:38

sdmin .com and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron and for the very first time welcome you to the all new

01:02:48

Iron Sharpens Iron Dr. Stephen Soukalos. It's a pleasure to be on Chris. I hope you're well and looking forward to the next hour.

01:02:56

I am as well and to get this discussion rolling I am just going to play a brief clip of Louis Farrakhan a brief clip of a speech he recently gave.

01:03:12

This is just to set the climate for our discussion on the nation of Islam.

01:03:17

I want to educate our listeners what the nation of Islam actually is because of the fact that especially because of the fact that Louis Farrakhan is arranging another million man march in Washington D .C.

01:03:31

and I believe it's this weekend and so here is a clip from a recent speech that minister

01:03:38

Farrakhan gave. I don't know what the hell the fight is about over the confederate flag we need to put the american flag down because we've got as much hell under that as the confederate flag.

01:04:02

Who are we fighting today? It's the people that carry the american flag.

01:04:12

What flag do the police have? What flag flies over the non -justice department?

01:04:21

What flag flies over the white house where a black man lives that's called every day?

01:04:32

What about that flag? Well that was just a bit of our charming friend

01:04:40

Louis Farrakhan giving us a piece of his mind about the united states and our flag but this is an interesting organization the nation of Islam.

01:04:54

Many people who are unaware of its roots and its teachings assume that it's just another sect within the world religion known as Islam but nothing could be farther from the truth.

01:05:07

So Dr. Tsoukalos tell us first of all I know your book is out of print but tell us something about the book you wrote and perhaps somebody in publishing listening will bring that back into print.

01:05:19

I think it needs to be back into print but tell us something about this book you wrote and why you felt a need to write it and it's also particularly of interest that you are a white christian and a white american.

01:05:31

What was the thought behind this when you wrote the book on the nation of Islam? Well the nation of Islam has to be understood both sociologically historically

01:05:42

I would venture to say before it can be understood theologically and I was under I was able to undertake what

01:05:52

I see as a fascinating study to establish the sociological historical soil in which the nation of Islam arose.

01:06:04

Perhaps you'll ask me about that later but just a nutshell of the approach and what the book's about. So the first six or so chapters delves into the sociological and historical soil that produced the nation of Islam.

01:06:19

This soil goes back into the 19th century perhaps the first quarter of the 19th century all the way up to its founding in 1930.

01:06:31

So it has about 100 years of history soil sociological soil as well that we can establish although some of the roots of course will go back even 100 or 200 or 300 years earlier than that especially when we're talking about slavery.

01:06:51

But the nation of Islam did not arise in a vacuum it arose in a in a and I'll say it again sociology in a historical setting and by which we can understand the nation of Islam and the nation of Islam is not to be confused with what we'll call orthodox

01:07:10

Islam or true Islam it's actually a heresy a false teaching of true

01:07:16

Islam and but it but it's also a heresy of Christianity. Yes and one of the reasons why and perhaps after I make the statement we can go into its roots and its origins and so on one of the reasons

01:07:32

I know it's heresy is because correct me if I'm wrong but do they not teach that God is a black man and obviously according to Islam so -called orthodox

01:07:44

Islam the world religion that has millions of adherents all over the globe they consider that the worst form of blasphemy to give partners to God to teach as as Christians do that God came in the flesh as Jesus Christ and to believe in the trinity and so on they would equally abhor a notion of God being a black man would they not?

01:08:12

Oh yes indeed it's one of the cardinal doctrines actually the first one in traditional

01:08:20

Islam is that there is no God but God or there is no

01:08:25

God but Allah now and what's interesting Chris is that in the nation of Islam publications now the nation of Islam publications um under what the

01:08:37

Muslims believe and they consider themselves Muslims number one is we believe in the one

01:08:43

God whose proper name is Allah now isn't that interesting however when you ask them to flesh that out that is the nation of Islam adherents what they'll tell you is there uh the

01:08:56

God they are speaking about directly is um Wallace D.

01:09:01

Fard who appeared as a stranger in Detroit in 1930 whom Elijah Muhammad um

01:09:09

Lewis Farrakhan's predecessor and teacher um taught that Fard was

01:09:15

God in the flesh Allah in the flesh again we can pack more unpack more of that later but that is the first no -no in what would for um traditional

01:09:27

Islam. That's shirk. It is shirk correct now the doctrine of God in the nation of Islam is um a little bit hard to discern um nation of Islam uh it's theologians if I may put that in quotes it is hardly systematic in its expression of what

01:09:47

God is they have a notion of God as the first black man of several scores of trillions of years ago who was created out of darkness and note that darkness and he was the first of a string of finite gods secondly they they see

01:10:06

Fard Wallace D Fard as God himself or Allah himself in the flesh and the present

01:10:13

God in the flesh and then thirdly you could the nation of Islam understands

01:10:19

God as a collective for all blacks now tell us something about the actual background of Fard and Elijah Muhammad well

01:10:32

Fard it's interesting not much was known about Fard at the time he appeared in Detroit in 1930 of course we back then it was not an age of the internet where you could you know google

01:10:48

Wallace D Fard and come up with um his idea as a

01:10:53

San Quentin inmate uh before coming to Detroit so he was largely unknown probably wholly unknown

01:11:01

I would say and um they weren't they weren't under the the understanding that um his roots could be to San Quentin as an inmate but he appears in 1930 and uh

01:11:14

Elijah Muhammad was born Elijah Poole p -o -o -l -e and he rid himself of that name because Poole was the name of his slave master his family's and ancestors slave master and he was named his surname was named uh

01:11:33

Poole for that reason therefore stripping him of his true identity as a black man and his actual roots which go back to Africa and that by the way is why a nation of Islam adherents either have an

01:11:48

X after their first name like Malcolm X or their names are entirely changed for example

01:11:57

Cassius Clay became Muhammad Ali um what's his

01:12:02

I forgot about Elijah Muhammad named him two weeks after Cassius Clay became a member of the nation of Islam and just quickly

01:12:11

Muhammad Ali is no longer a nation of Islam adherent but he was the son

01:12:17

Elijah Muhammad was the son of a minister and loved to debate loved to talk theology and uh he was on his way from the south to come to what was known then as the utopian north in the industrial north and but he found that moving up to the utopic industrial north in the early 1900s wasn't all that it was cut out to be

01:12:46

Elijah Muhammad states that he found just as much bigotry and hatred among the whites for the blacks up in up in the north part of the country that he managed as he did in the in the southern part so he was quickly disillusioned in the 19 -teens and in the uh into the 1920s now two black leaders as we go into the upper 1920s two black leaders

01:13:14

Noble Drew Ali who started an Islamic kind of cult heresy in the teens 19 -teens and Marcus Garvey was a great social leader as well by the late 20s both either

01:13:32

Garvey was deported and dead and and Ali was also deported and so there was a social theological vacuum in Detroit where Elijah Muhammad was at the time and so this vacuum was filled by the stranger who appeared from the east and that was

01:13:57

Wallace D. Fard or Fard Muhammad as he's also known later

01:14:02

Elijah Muhammad who was captivated by Fard and listened often outside a window because the meeting places were packed according to Elijah Muhammad couldn't get near the place and was very captivated and at the end of the at the end of one meeting

01:14:23

Elijah Muhammad recalls that he made himself through the crowd made his way through the crowd and after Fard spoke and walked up to him and said

01:14:35

I know who you are you are God and Fard reportedly said that's right but don't tell it now wow uh so going back to even

01:14:51

Fard was he making any kind of uh proclamations that he was

01:14:56

God not at the time I think Fard I'm inferring here

01:15:03

I'm um my thesis is that not at the time but later on began to be deified by Elijah Muhammad and Fard was of course willing and able to accept that confession of faith but Fard would make his way into homes by selling silk and other things and so he was a salesman of fine linens and he would make himself make his way into homes sell sell his wares or attempt to sell his wares and tell tell the black people about their true origin about their true home in Africa and uh taught them to to uh be pride take pride in who they are and that the white man's religion i .e

01:15:55

christianity was misleading them and turning them into uncle toms who would turn the other cheek when when slapped by a white person so he was teaching people to stand up for who they are giving them a sense of racial identity and pride now these individual house visits eventually turned on turned into his establishing a following which was small at first which led to home meetings which then led to large gatherings at perhaps rented places or establishments now uh the the nation of islam uh has a lot of positive things that came out of it socially in regard to moral and social ethics and behavior in rescuing uh black people from the inner cities out of a hellish lifestyle wasn't it weren't there some positive things that at least initially came out of that and and still today in in that respect comes out of it just like the many of the cults of the world uh you know like mormonism for instance you know that people can be rescued out of a deadly lifestyle like such as drug addiction or alcohol abuse or anything else that you could think of because of the the strict moral standards if you could just comment on that sure yes indeed and you often find ministers or spokespeople or teachers from the in prisons for example and yes yes for sure their lives have been turned around coming out of drug addiction coming out of promiscuous behavior as a married black man for example turning one's life around it's had tremendous social implications upon the lives of many uh black men so that that is not to be downplayed um so in in looking at the nation of islam we can draw upon these uh so -called positive notions of change now why did i say so -called they indeed exist and we can call upon them but um ultimately theologically the only true ethical behavior can occur and i'll repeat that the only truly ethical behavior occurs when one is redeemed by grace through faith in the lord jesus christ and honors god the father with the works by the enabling indwelling of god the holy spirit amen uh what is the view of the fate of the white race in the minds of those in leadership in the nation of islam do they believe that white people are beyond salvation that we are reprobate and without hope back in 1991 when i was lecturing in new york city uh in queens uh a series on cults i had a day off and i went with my friend i mentioned this at the beginning of the book when we were in manhattan walking along the sidewalk we came across a young black man who was had a table and whose back was to the traffic sitting on the sidewalk and he had books and of course this always interests me when i see a book display i go ahead and check it out see what's being sold and as i approached the young man turned away from me at a 45 degree angle and as i asked him questions about the books he would answer my questions but not look me directly in the face i said thank you and we went on my our merry way my friend and i my friend said you know who that was i said i said no he said that that was a member of the black muslims that was a member of the nation of islam he thinks you're you're a devil and so that prompted me to study the nation of islam deeply getting their publications and uh their books uh their final call magazine or newspaper yes the black excuse me the white race collectively is known as the devil and each white person within uh the devil or the collective idea of the devil is an individual devil cannot be trusted and they have chris interestingly a sacred myth or sacred story that explains why uh white people cannot be uh trusted it's the story of the evil black scientist yakuv huh now do in their minds uh do white people though have an opportunity to repent and actually join the nation of islam there have been white people throughout history even involved in the black panthers and involved in any kind of a activity uh with uh black activists and so on uh that that you know want to take on the identity of of of black folks so uh do they view that that that is a possibility in their theology and minds i would say reading their materials no it is not a possibility now whether that's done in practice i don't know but reading their publications the whites are devils and cannot be trusted now even malcolm x though he was of mixed race was he not yes and interestingly this there's a theology here that i have had to infer in my reading of nation islam nation of islam books what to answer your question yes and uh even lewis farrakhan i imagine and elijah pool had white blood in him now what happens here well fahd muhammad wallace b fard was also of mixed uh blood and theologically what the nation of islam does is that in the person of wallace fard the white and the white is overcome by the black and so then by confession of fard as allah in the flesh they are incorporated into this belief system spiritually and they as well live in victory of the black over the white in themselves and i'm going to repeat our email address if you'd like to join us on the air with a question for steven sukalis by the way am i pronouncing your name correct it's uh been years since i've spoken with you so is it sukalis yes it is okay great great job yes i'm also one of the few people that can correctly pronounce the bt anya wheeler who's a christian believer yeah he's a christian believer who was formerly a muslim uh okay but uh the email address if you'd like to join us is chris arnzen at gmail .com

01:23:16

chris arnzen at gmail .com we do already have a listener uh in carlisle pennsylvania christian who wants to know what was the fate of wallace d fard did he is the is his death known about and if so how did the nation of islam react to their god dying there's a twofold answer to that first in the strictly from their perspective in the strictly secular uh way wallace fard and this is based on some well how should i say this wallace fard mysteriously disappeared in 1934 three and a half years after his appearance isn't that interesting in detroit so from a secular standpoint we don't know what happened to him he just disappeared however nation of islam states that today wallace d fard who uh never did die and elijah muhammad never did die in 1975 rather the both of them are on the mothership a half mile by half mile spaceship uh circling or in the atmosphere of earth and they are preserved and they are waiting for the final day of armageddon where the mothership will unleash 1500 bomber planes to destroy the white race and all those who do not accept fardian islam and what's your problem with that um we do have a listener in mechanicsburg harrison who wants to know how accurate was the 1992 film malcolm x produced and directed by spike lee if you've seen it i thought it was very accurate yeah you know i i thought that was uh a fascinating movie and uh if you see it i'm talking to my listeners now if you see it listed on a regular tv station where they're going to do some editing of anything that would be uh profane and so on i would highly urge you to watch it because ironically uh spike lee uh who who started the film in a really absurd way with the police beating a uh a black individual uh but in an occurrence that was very uh globally known in the early night the uh not the early 1900s but the early 1990s um but the rest of the movie it was not a um tribute to the nation of islam he was exposing some very evil and wicked and corrupt uh sides of that movement malcolm x uh born malcolm little his father also was a traveling baptist preacher uh was in uh was a criminal he grew up as and being a criminal and was in jail reading philosophy and theology heavily and um appeared to him one day was this stranger who he later would identify as fad so afad is making appearances after his supposed disappearance in the jail cell uh of malcolm x and from that point on malcolm x began to turn to the nation of islam was eventually was eventually um converted was became a very articulate well not became a he already was an articulate man well studied became a spokesperson uh for elijah muhammad back in the in the 19 late 1950s early 60s malcolm x made a hajj the pilgrimage that is a part of uh islam traditional islam he made a pilgrimage to mecca now prior to this hajj this mecca meccan pilgrimage malcolm began to have suspicions about elijah muhammad because uh several young women were claiming to have uh have given birth to children that were fathered by elijah muhammad now the tables the taste is turning and when he arrives in mecca which by the way was pretty much a an honorable position to be in because rather than going himself elijah muhammad entrusted malcolm x with the hajj he said that he found himself standing shoulder to shoulder with white devils worshiping allah that began to turn the tables even more and when he returned he eventually uh renounced the nation of islam and formed his own group and was later assassinated right we're going to be uh going to a break right now and so we do have a listener in florida that has a question we'll get to you right after this station break uh if you'd like to join us on the air as well our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com

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c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com don't go away we'll be right back with stephen sookalos and our discussion on the nation of islam charles haddon spurgeon once said give yourself unto reading the man who never reads will never be read he who never quotes will never be quoted he will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves he has no brains of his own you need to read solid ground christian books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the prince of creatures to heart the mission of solid ground christian books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to christians in the present and future and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world since it's beginning in 2001 solid ground has been committed to publish god -centered christ exalting books for all ages we invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com

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that's solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past you can unearth from solid ground solid ground christian books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of iron sharpens iron radio i am chris arnson of iron sharpens iron radio are you a christian looking to align your faith and finances then you'll want to check out thriving financial you're not your typical financial services provider you're a not -for -profit fortune 500 organization that helps their nearly 2 .4

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million members to be wise with money they provide guidance that reflects your values so you can protect what matters most they help members live generously and strengthen the communities where they live work and worship learn more about the thriving story by contacting michael gallagher at 717 -254 -6433 at 717 -254 -6433 lending faith finances and generosity that's the private story welcome back this is chris arns and if you just tuned us in our guest for the remaining half hour is stephen sakalas and he is the author of a book on the nation of islam that we are discussing today largely due to the fact that lewis farrakhan their current leader is uh organizing a million man march for this weekend i believe in washington dc and uh our email address if you'd like to join us is chris arnson at gmail .com

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c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com and we do have an email from mike in fort myers florida he says hello steve i have a copy of your book on the nation of islam which definitely needs to be brought back into print given the widespread misunderstanding of this sect not only within the christian church at large but the public as well my question to you is is this in trying to dialogue with a member of the nation of islam where would you begin in terms of laying a foundation very good question well first of all thank thanks for that kind comment i do hope that uh both that book and my book masonic rights and wrongs do indeed return to print so thank you for your kind comments um well let's return to the sidewalk in manhattan in 1991 had i known back then what i know today here's how i would have handled the dialogue with the young man selling books and if you're just tuning in uh there was a young man of the nation of islam selling books on a manhattan street sidewalk and when i approached him at the book table he turned away from me to answer my questions because i was a white devil now what i would have done i would have stated after asking some questions about the books you know i've i've read your the books i actually care enough to about you to read your books and to understand you as best i can and although you think i'm a white devil please understand at least right now that i've made the effort to understand and enter into your world of belief because i care for you and i've read about the yakuv story the evil black scientist named yakuv and how the the the white race was actually grafted from the black race in a series of experiments birthing experiments uh lasting for 600 years and i understand that you believe that story and that's why you're having trouble trusting me right now but i've i've made the effort and i think deep down inside my friend i'm going to appeal to your intuition that you know i'm not a devil i'm a person who cares about you genuinely i under i want to understand i have understood i've endeavored to understand i continue to endeavor to understand your belief system and your that which molds your life and i think you can trust me i want to share that with you and i also want to tell you about who jesus is and what he has done and how he can truly make you and i of one blood amen amen and uh we have already heard from you that uh the nation of islam is a cult that really departs in many crucial ways from the world religion known as islam uh what other than the quran do they claim to hold as their their guide for life and religious teaching and so on well the quran they'll say in in one of elijah muhammad's publication called supreme the supreme wisdom the quran is a holy book from god the bible is a poison book so they they indeed rest upon the quran uh for their belief system and the guidance in their life however i doubt that meant very many of them have even read the quran elijah muhammad himself displays an ignorance of actual quranic teaching and islamic teaching obviously the shirk that they teach regarding god being a black man that's a really a vivid example of how they can't really be knowledgeable about the quran without doubt and uh they're they're calling white the white people devils is also a doctrine that you would not not find in in the traditional is islam but also they in addition to answer your question they would hold that the the writings of elijah muhammad though kind of on a secondary tier because muhammad got it from part is are those writings are to be considered authoritative in learning and living uh what do you make of the video that was was publicized a number of years ago where it seems crystal clear that lewis farrakhan is taking upon himself with no apology responsibility for the assassination of malcolm x and uh it was really astonishing that not really much was made of that public uh profession which which obviously was made by a person with a hidden camera this was not something that he wanted uh for public consumption but what do you make of that v i'm first of all i'm assuming did you see the video i did not oh i will say it confirms my theory um and it's not a theory that that is shared only by myself that members of the nation of islam did in fact assassinate malcolm x yes well i i would advise you look that up because it's pretty clear that he's admitting to it he's using cryptic language but it's it's obvious that's what he's doing he explained it away in some absurd fashion but i also knew years ago back in the 90s a pastor in detroit john davis who was a christian convert out of the nation of islam he was one of malcolm x's bodyguards and he believed with certainty that farrakhan was involved in that assassination um so what uh has changed if anything in regard to the teachings or public image or the public relations of the nation of islam since it was founded now that it's under the headship of lewis farrakhan i remember i was quite surprised when i saw a clip of lewis farrakhan defending mike tyson who was being accused of sexual impropriety and even rape uh and the way that lewis farrakhan was defending mike tyson not of his innocence but he was uh uh saying that that basically that what do you expect when you know somebody is a heavyweight champion of the world and a celebrity like that and women are clamoring over him he's going to give in to these temptations and he was acting like it was he was joking about it from the the podium which seems to contradict their strict moral standards yeah that is interesting well well to your question nothing nothing really has changed of substance because if you go on noi .org

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for example not for example if you go on noi .org you'll find that there's a statement or confession twofold of what the muslims believe and what the muslims want uh created by elijah muhammad and who of course was a disciple so the story goes of of um wallace d five so nothing of substance has changed but it is interesting that you bring that up that that farrakhan would say that about mike tyson when all along on paper the noi would state that he has to get his wife together rather than behave the way he's behaving so on paper nothing has changed although you will find farrakhan and yours is one example uh farrakhan mincing his beliefs now uh has the nation of islam always accepted invitations by black churches uh to uh speak in their pulpits i was it's quite a fascinating thing to me i saw not long ago maybe two years ago uh a video clip of lewis farrakhan speaking in an african -american baptist church at the invitation of the pastor and the irony was that lewis farrakhan was actually saying a lot of true things in his rebuke of the black church at large in regard to liberalism and feminism but uh it's in the the pastor after farrakhan was finished saying that his pulpit is always open to dr farrakhan or minister farrakhan and it's quite amazing that that that people who profess to be christian would be welcoming a man who is the enemy of christianity into their pulpits and by the way i do have to say that farrakhan was describing himself as a type of christian which is which was all another thing that astonished me can you comment on those things absolutely um that's a good word too that you brought but brought but with this occurrence i asked the question is this baptist minister or pastor uh should he be seen as a pastor or as a pastor and i put that in quotes we even with farrakhan who claims to now and then have been a christian being a christian and this pastor and with farrakhan and with others we really don't know unless we ask the right questions and we know how to ask the questions for example if i'm not speaking um directly to this pastor i don't know of the event but what interests me and then startles me but no longer surprises me is that you can have reverend in front of your name and you can be followed your name could be followed by a string of letters and and periods and still be a wolf in sheep's clothing because you would deny jesus as the only way his bodily resurrection the doctrine of the trinity the virgin birth the bible as the inspired word of god right on down the line so the pastors that invite people like farrakhan to the pulpit in a teaching situation i would seriously question their christianity and i would also put the questions to louis farrakhan when he claims if he were ever in front of me claiming to be a christian i would ask him well you do you believe jesus is fully god the son and full humanity as one person second person of the trinity holy god holy man the only way of salvation then we'd get some interesting non -christian answers i would hope from louis farrakhan if he's being virtuous enough to articulate what he really believes now was that a novel thing that he did identifying himself as a christian oh no no no no matter of fact i even had to have an appendix in my book written back in 2000 2001 and the appendix is is entitled is lewis lewis farrakhan changing so i mean we'll always hear rumors of this but as long as he's a member of the of islam and holding to elijah muhammad's teachings no really he is not a christian oh i know that he's not a christian but i mean is it novel that he would identify himself publicly as a christian no it's not novel he's done that over and over again as that's why i had to write that appendix in my book right uh the uh i don't know if you've ever read the biography of george lincoln rockwell who is the founder of the american nazi party in the 50s hate it's called h -a -t -e george lincoln rockwell in the american nazi party a fascinating book and it goes into the very bizarre uh and unlikely bedfellows that you would find with racist white racist groups uh that would freely use the word the n -word to describe the black race and uh so on and and and uh advocate all kinds of violent and grotesque behavior against them there was a great uh connection made between uh the nation of islam and the american nazi party and they invited george lincoln rockwell at least once i think even more than once to speak for them and and i believe it was at the madison square garden event that george lincoln rockwell was invited to speak by them and he and his fellow american nazis were the only whites in the audience and he had a roaring applause afterwards because of the similarity that they were both segregationists and were very opposed to the liberal uh policies in the united states regarding integration and if you could comment on that bizarre affinity that they had well interestingly too if you're a newcomer into the study of the nation of islam you'd you you would think as you approached uh the the readings and books and the newspapers you'd think that they were on the same page as martin luther king for example but really they're not they had a tremendous disagreement with martin luther king because he was indeed uh not a segregationist and they wanted to keep separate the white from the black as a matter of fact uh just to put some flesh on what you were saying uh in muslim public in black muslim publications uh what the muslims want uh number four we read we want our people in america whose parents or grandparents were descendants from slaves to be allowed to establish a separate state or territory of their own either on this continent or elsewhere we believe that our former slave masters are obligated to provide such land and that the area must be fertile and minerally rich we believe that our former slave masters are obligated to maintain and supply our needs in this separate territory for the next 20 to 25 years until we are able to produce and supply our own needs so indeed that's that's what they want and they would be at odds with people like martin luther king right is there still a so -called friendly relationship today between white racist groups and the nation of islam don't know don't know for sure the answer to that i apologize okay and so you're saying that uh the nation of islam uh other than that what i which i just mentioned uh is pretty much the same organization that was founded by elijah muhammad and his teachings and its practice yes indeed indeed just a visit having read if you've read my book and then visit nli .org

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you'll see that these same beliefs are listed on its website what do the uh what is the public uh view and statements regarding our current president uh barack obama since he is an african -american uh and obviously in many ways has views far to the left of the beliefs of the nation of islam uh do they condemn him as a traitor or how do they view him or do they applaud the fact that he is the first black president how do they view this situation they would definitely applaud him although he's not uh formally a member of the nation of islam to my knowledge they would applaud uh that applaud him they would also applaud the fact that uh at one time in the past he was a member of a reverend white's congregation right and i'll put reverend in quotes uh congregation where ideologically and theologically much or let's say some of reverend white's rhetoric was very similar to that of the nation of islam so for those reasons they would they would applaud him yeah uh i guess it would be other than um some of the more overtly liberal things that uh reverend white and his denomination the united church of christ uh in favor of homosexuality and feminism and so on i'm assuming that the nation of islam would be in opposition to those points that's correct but oftentimes as we've seen with lewis farrakhan on paper there's one thing it's one thing in other words on paper we have the books we have the final call magazine or newspaper on paper they should be believing such and such such and such but practically we've seen lewis farrakhan stray when it comes to political statements etc we have uh john from bangor maine asking if he knows why malcolm x's daughter made peace with lewis farrakhan after originally believing farrakhan was a part of the assassination of her father cannot comment sorry okay but did you did hear about that they had some kind of a uh reunion years ago did you not where they yes i did i did hear about it but do not have sufficient knowledge to answer the question and uh what uh if any uh can you tell us about or if anything i should say about other branches of uh black racist religious groups that have perhaps sprung out of the nation of islam yes there's uh there's perhaps scores of them um they for some reason as as you well well know chris what can happen is that a movement a person joins a movement and the movement um somehow uh fudges either on beliefs or on certain statement statements uh people might make like lewis farrakhan a person may get uh disillusioned by that and as a result go on to to form uh one's own religion that is still based on much of the theology for example of the earlier movement an example of that is after muhammad elijah muhammad died wallace dean was entrusted with the reigns of the organization dean took it took it uh more toward a traditional islamic belief system and lewis farrakhan broke off from that and claims to maintain and he has claims to maintain elijah muhammad's original teachings and um throughout the land you do have expressions of these these uh movements that are founded ideologically uh theologically or if former adherents wise uh from the nation of islam there there are plenty of them and a lot of them still are are in mission are in uh excuse me uh prison ministries as well so -called ministries so you were just speaking about uh elijah muhammad's son before who went yes yes i'm sorry well it's dean muhammad correct right right well did he become a full -fledged member of orthodox islam or was it just still an offshoot of some kind if he was uh he was converted to sunni islam okay so it was more of the mainstream uh world religion of islam correct correct and uh so that that is quite fascinating that that his own son would depart from that group it is uh and uh the and in fact what you were saying before when uh when malcolm x visited mecca as the spikely film uh depicts accurately he saw the falsehood of the religion that he embraced because of largely because of its racism and he realized that muslims were multiracial and that this was being hidden from them correct yes yes and what can you tell us uh in the remaining minutes that you most want to unburden your heart about that you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners you never know in the providence of god if this uh especially when it's a podcast archived on the iron trip and zion website may fall into the hands as it were or into the ears of a member of the nation of islam or somebody who has family members or loved ones in the nation of islam but what do you have to really say to us as as our as your listeners today yeah thank you for that well interestingly the forward of my book was written by uh carl f ellis yes i know carl i know carl yeah okay and of course he's a for our listeners he's he's black and he himself states that uh you don't it's okay if you're not black you if you do the homework you understand the movement endeavor as much as you can to understand their beliefs and what makes them tick then it will be a great witness to them so what i'd like to share is that even if it's not my book read something on the nation of islam to understand the black muslims and try as best you can to enter into their world and know their beliefs and when you talk with them tell them that you've taken the time to study and know christianity well enough so that you're able to ask the white right questions and in that context to provide a strong christian witness and i'm assuming that one thing we need to do is uh separate those who have in the name of christ said wrote and had actually practiced atrocious things against the black race and against black individuals we have to separate that from what actually is taught in the scriptures that god's people are from every tribe and tongue and people and nation and that the fact that we have to we have to view the the fact that the nation of islam in some ways is actually apparently thriving on the the notion of the failures of the black church at large succumbing to liberalism and the matriarchal female -led atmosphere of the of the of the church at large in the african -american community that is really something that they prey upon from my understanding and we have to reveal to them that this is not what the scriptures teach correct absolutely absolutely in christ there is one blood and there is no white or black slave nor free if i can loosely paraphrase uh that all in christ we are one and we can live that we can we can preach that we can state all the while that yes atrocities have occurred um to blacks at the hands of uh white bigots and that we we know of that but that we can offer to them the reconciling blood of jesus christ which makes humanity of all who call on the name of jesus one with glory triune god yes amen and uh one should never reject jesus christ because of judas so uh regardless of what any wicked man has done or said or written in the name of christ does not mean that we should reject what is in the inspired inerrant word of god and even when godly men in other respects have said or written racist things we have to recognize that all men are sinners uh and at the same time not overlook and uh candy coat the sins that they commit whether in thought word or deed mm -hmm we are called to live holy lives and we don't want to downplay that we are the saints of god if we are in christ jesus but but also it's a wonderful thing that christianity rests upon who jesus is and what he has done and it is to him that the world should look for the true answer amen if do you care to provide any contact information for our listeners well once again if you'd like to visit our website uh sound doctrine ministries which is s d for sound doctrine m i n for minutes ministries .com