October 7, 2015 Show with Stephen Atkinson on “How Those Outside of the USA View American Christianity” PLUS Steven Tsouklas on “The Nation of Islam”

American Christianity Seen from Outside the United States

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth. We're listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this seventh day of October 2015.

And for those of you who are expecting Michael Haken to be in our program today, as we had previously announced, Michael Haken, who is a world-renowned Christian historian and author and professor and conference speaker, brilliant brother in Christ, well, he had an unforeseen urgent matter to deal with today and had to reschedule his interview to sometime within the next two weeks, so we are apologizing for that on behalf of our dear brother Michael Haken.

And also yesterday, at the end of yesterday's program, I accidentally announced that Ken Ham was going to be on today. Ken Ham, the world-renowned creationist apologist from back to Genesis, well, he was never going to be on today.

He was supposed to be on and is going to be on, God willing, next Wednesday, October 14th, and I just accidentally looked at the wrong area of the calendar when I said that right at the end of yesterday's program.

But I'm sure you won't be disappointed nonetheless because of the lineup we have today, and I thank these brethren that we have as guests today for filling in last minute for me. First of all, we have returning to the Iron Sharpens Iron program today, Stephen Atkinson, who's originally from Northern Ireland and he is currently the North American Director of Ministry for a Christian Witness to Israel.

Following Stephen's hour on the program, we are going to have a guest that appeared on the old Iron Sharpens Iron program, and I'm delighted to have him back to the new broadcast for the first time, Stephen Tsoukalas, and he is going to be speaking about the Nation of Islam.

I'm not talking about the world religion known as Islam that millions of Muslims adhere to globally. I'm talking about the specific cult that was born here in America, the Nation of Islam, currently headed by Louis Farrakhan, and due to the fact that they are having another Million Man March, apparently, this weekend in Washington, D .C., and Mr. Farrakhan is calling for African Americans to tear down the American flag, we thought that it'd be appropriate to educate our listeners during the second hour on exactly what the Nation of Islam is.

So I hope you stay tuned for the second half of the broadcast as well. But first, let me welcome back a new friend of mine, and I'm looking forward to many years of friendship with him and laboring with him for the cause of the gospel, as many years as the Lord will permit.

It's an honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens.

Iron. Stephen Atkinson. Well, thank you, Chris. It seems like no time at all. I was setting this live. Once again, it is a privilege. I want to hear that. Well, it is a privilege to be back with you. I'm very glad to help.

I'm very glad to stand in for.

Michael Aiken. Yes, and I'm very happy that you were able to do so. And before we even get further into the interview, I just have to read to you all what I think is a hilarious commendation for my program that I just received today from Todd Freel.

Todd Freel, as many of you may know, is the host of Wretched TV and Wretched Radio, and he's an author. And I had the honor and privilege to have him yesterday on my program. Well, here is what Todd had to say about me.

Iron Sharpens Iron. Let's see. Let's see. It was my pleasure yesterday. Wait a minute. I somehow lost his thing here. Hold on a second. I'm sorry, ladies and gentlemen. I had it right in front of me. Oh, here it is.

Here we go. Todd Freel here says spending 30 minutes on air with Chris Arnzen is like riding a bull in a rodeo without a clown to save you. Fast, hard, challenging, and somebody inevitably gets stepped on.

It was a gas. I don't know what he feels like. Well, excuse me, folks. If I seem a little bit frazzled today, I just literally got Stephen Atkinson to agree to do the program today about five minutes before the show started.

So my mind is not quite where it should be right now. But I thank you for your patience. But Stephen, before we go into our specific topic today, which is a controversial one and kind of goes right hand in hand with what Todd Freel had to say about Iron Sharpens Iron, you are going to speak on today what those outside the U .S. think about American Christianity or what the view is of those outside of the U .S .A. about American Christianity.

And before we go into that, if you could please give us a little bit more background about Christian witness to Israel. I know that you already did that at great length in previous interviews, but there are some people who are perhaps tuning in for the very.

First time. So let me give you the prayer driving the missiology. I think that's a concern. Indeed, our theology, impoverished theology, either generally will have a diminished or a disorientated missiology.

In other words, if we don't get the belief right, we don't get the belief in church the church to be engaged with their Jewish neighbors. And so far as I'm able, community, very fine men. And today, as I said, our topic is what those outside of the U .S .A. think of.

American Christianity or how those outside of the U .S .A. view American Christianity. And obviously a very controversial subject. Some people may be offended by some things that are said, but I think that these kinds of things are important.

So in fact, years ago, I conducted an interview with a liberal Roman Catholic because he wrote a book called Holy Land, USA. And it was basically, I think the subtitle was a Catholic ride across America's evangelical landscape.

And the reason I did that interview is because I wanted to hear how an outsider outside of evangelical Christianity viewed evangelical Christianity. And this Catholic author, Peter Feuerherd, who, as I said, is a liberal and openly liberal, identifies himself as a liberal Catholic.

He basically what he found in many of the American evangelical churches, according to him, in fact, I will quote when he was referring to the mega churches, he said, you will find most often more thus saith Oprah than thus saith scripture.

And the thing that was quite interesting, being a liberal, he was happy about that. And I thought it was a fascinating interview myself. And I told him that I agreed with his analysis of the evangelical landscape in America.

But I was not happy with his findings as he was, I was very disturbed by his findings, although lamenting that I had to agree with him. But that is kind of the mindset that I had today in a different way.

I know that you are a obviously a Bible believing Christian, but you're also theologically reformed as I am. And you come from the UK, Northern Ireland specifically. And you have been living there most of your life in the UK as a Christian for many of those years.

And I just wanted to have some discussion today about the view of many of those that you have come to speak with and meet and know and worship with and labor with for the gospel, what their opinions are of American Christianity.

And what kind of sparked this in my head, this idea, is that there was a brother, I'm not going to mention his name, but a brother in Christ in the UK who posted something on my Facebook page. He was disturbed by myself and other Christians saying very negative things about a speech that President Barack Obama gave right in the aftermath of the recent horrific massacre or executions by a crazed gunman in Roseburg, Oregon.

And he immediately, in fact, openly stated that he intended to politicize this horrific event. And it was obvious he was talking about gun control, which has always been a part of his platform. And myself and other evangelicals were talking about the hypocrisy of Mr. Obama attacking law-abiding, gun-owning citizens of the United States and somewhat making it clear that we in America who believe in gun owner rights and who are against gun control laws, especially those from the left of the aisle there, he was clearly insinuating that this was the root of the problem.

And yet this man is also totally in favor of murdering unborn children in the womb, in fact, partially born children. And so this brother in Christ from the UK was standing up at least for the comments of President Obama in regard to gun control.

And he was criticizing myself and other Christians who were bringing up this hypocrisy. So I just wanted to give you a little background of what sparked this. But before we even go into some of the criticisms that you may have of the United States, perhaps you could start with Christianity in the United States, the things that you admire.

About it and seek to emulate and imitate and so on. Well, you know, I think that in that, you know, I think we're very, very quick to speak. We're very quick to make judgments. We're very quick to make generalizations in our ignorant Northern Ireland and the Highlands.

And therefore, when I come on here, I need to make pronouncements. I have been in the US. I've been traveling over for three years. And I think also it would be helpful, perhaps UK is not all we, the United Kingdom is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

It's a different deal. When I think that we, again, in the UK, there's the American church scene and therefore the good. And again, I think that we need to recognize that there are certain personalities and characteristics of the English, the Northern Irish culture that makes you make pronouncements.

Sometimes there is an attitude that tends towards negativity. Make negative pronouncements, then it can make us seem rather reasonable. I find really just kind of setting pronouncements that I might make some way, having something of a disclaimer, because I'll be making, maybe some have, and maybe some of your listeners have, that we then, all of that, you know, into the mix.

I think we need to be careful. And certainly if we're counting on what I have and what knowledge I have and what an understanding I have, and even what observation I might make. And therefore, I will be very happy to kingdom work is overall.

And I see both the negative and the... Okay, well, start out with the positive.

It might be better to work it that way. Well, I'm very happy to do that. And I'm.

Happy to do that because sometimes, you know, when folks from the UK make their pronouncements, it is often in the negative. And so I'm very happy to come and say that a country that has, and I really mean to you, I think as I've shared even last week when I was with you, had a huge potential for Jewish mission as we narrow the focus for the specific work that I'm involved in.

You also know the book by Piper Johnson called Operation World, where he really has an analysis seen all around the world. And he said, I've got a quote in front of me, actually, in Operation World, we are living in the time of the largest in gathering.

And then he makes a comment concerning the United States. And he says, no other continent has such a wealth of and means for evangelizing their own continent and the world. In other words, you know, a guy that has analyzed the world, I'm coming here with observations from the UK and the US, but someone that I think that's a challenging statement, optimism, as I have the privilege to recognize.

And what is the main contrast you see in a positive way between what you've experienced in Christianity here and overseas now that you live here?

I think one of the great positives, and this sounds really mercenary, because I'm in a not-for-profit mission. And I'm, you know, desiring to raise funds, got more money over availability of something that needs to be recognized, and need promoted and used.

And, you know, I'm not saying that, I'm not saying that we're all stingy Scots-Irish, there is a generous, generosity pertaining to finance, a generosity pertaining, and just the hospitality. Having said that, Irish hospitality is legendary, obviously, and the hospitality of my UK brethren.

I think what I would have to, you know, make clear, too, that, as I said, we have a very different kingdom here in that, like, 100 miles by 100 miles, somewhere around that region, you're going to have a thousand Bible-believing churches.

And that reformed witness of a bygone year, England has seriously good efforts at regaining, Southern Ireland would be 90 Catholic, and increasingly, the amount of that is just set aside of Ireland.

I saw American church planters. So, and Michael Hagen, indeed, could this next time when he's on, because he has been entering into conversations with the of Ireland, and I think they are planning on setting some kind of outpost of in Cork, WI, I traveled a lot all over Ireland, and an encouragement just to see in that the American church, looking at the need, another generosity was made clear to me by a number of guys in England.

Now, as I said, my own in Cambridge, England, in the 90s, that denomination is continuing and growing and has the point that is being made to me is by these American church planters, is that we in America have been in the United States with what we have, let's use our resources, let's use our manpower.

Sometimes the sometimes the life is and again, those are just things we need to encourage one another, we need to build one another up within the kingdom of God and his and we're going to be going to a break right now and you can pick up where you left off.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question for Stephen Atkinson, about how those outside of the USA view American Christianity, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-S-E-N at gmail .com.

And whether you agree with our guest, whether you disagree with our guest, whether you have negative things to say about Christianity from your observation, Christianity in the United States or whether you want to bolster a positive view of American Christianity, we'd love to hear from you, we'd especially love to hear from you if you live outside of the USA and I know we have many listeners in the UK and other parts of the world.

Chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com and chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Please give us at least your first name and the city and state that you're residing in and the country where you reside if you live outside the USA.

Don't go away, we'll be right back with Stephen Atkinson. I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries. The.

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The Strengths and Weaknesses of American Christianity

Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen, if you've just tuned us in for the last half hour. Our guest has been and he will be for the next half hour, Stephen Atkinson, who is the North American Director of Ministry for a Christian Witness to Israel, CWI is how it is known, is CWINA .org.

We have been discussing how those outside of the United States of America view American Christianity. And we were just concluding with some of the positive things that our guest, who is a native of Northern Ireland, has been saying about Christianity.

I know one of the negative things that probably popped into your head is these bloody Americans and their commercials during Christian radio. Well, that's one of the things that I need to survive.

This is market-driven America, you see.

Well, if you could continue, I don't know if you want to continue with anything positive or if you want to go straight for the juggler vein and start talking about negative things.

Well, I'm happy to talk about either angle, but I don't reach part of even of your history that is different from your own setups.

I was just going to say that a lot of that comes from one of the most ingrained and deeply rooted things that Americans and American Christians especially cherish, although obviously not all of us, but those who believe in a free church, in a free state, who at least from history know that it is never a good idea for a denomination to have tyranny over all other Christians and enforce upon you obedience to them at all costs, even in light of disagreement on serious issues that arise.

Now, is this maverick spirit or this lone wolf spirit, obviously since you're talking about this coming out of the American pioneer spirit, is this something that is much more prevalent over here than in the UK and other places in.

The world that you've been? I think that's undoubtedly, I think that kind of...

I have 47 varieties in my closet.

Entitlement to pioneer-style nature. Folks have a mindset because the kingdom, we go because they are the experts, not me. I don't want something, you've got to tell me feel good. And again, because it's market-driven, who gets the crack to the scriptures, it will demand the proper...

And I want to just add something about those who advertise in my.

Program. It should be known that these folks that advertise with me, the first and foremost priority in their minds is that the gospel is spread and that this show remains on the air. Very few of them have a grandiose idea or misconception about making a lot of money from these ads or getting a lot of business.

I hope they do get a lot of business to help return the good that they've done to me. But I just wanted to make it clear to my audience that I know all of these advertisers personally, and I know that they're godly men and have the right motives involved in even sponsoring a show like this.

So I just wanted to make that clear to our listeners. I'm sure you would agree that one of the things that's unique about the United States is we are more culturally and ethnically and racially diverse than any other nation in the world.

And we also have a lot of freedoms that aren't in existence in a lot of places. And freedom, which is a wonderful thing, often has negative baggage. I mean, when you think about, I have heard Roman Catholic apologists blame every evil in the world on the Protestant Reformation because sola scriptura in their minds is a blueprint for anarchy.

And all of these liberal denominations have popped up all over the globe, and they blame that on the Reformation. And they also even blame the liberalism within the Catholic Church on the free spirit that was spawned by the Reformation.

Now, some of that may even be true. But whenever you have freedom, because men are born totally depraved, you're going to have people misusing that freedom. And the alternative is not better to have a tyrannical church like Rome was, and even the Church of England in the past was, where the streets ran red with blood if you disagreed with them.

That's not a better option. I mean, do you agree with that or not? Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, in all of.

These things, it's simply taking the wrong extreme and taking that which could be good. I'm saying as you speak of some of the ill observers can be tyranny, tyranny of the minority. And there can be that attitude of a few people.

And I've seen pastors, and sometimes I've had to sit alongside pastors in the congregation that just drive the pastor nuts. The other thing that I've reformed, all we've got to do is discuss. We're all gathered together.

That's our kingdom work. You know, it takes over. And even we have that arrogant pride, and we're better because our theology is better. Again, why are the numbers, but to where the bad speak, okay, there's a little of a lot more of that outside that.

But I think on balance, I has a huge potential. By the way, I can recall having a meeting at the radio station where I.

Used to work in the 90s and early 2000s, and a part of one of the largest, in fact, the largest Christian network in the world. And we had a visitor that day in our conference room. The sales staff had a meeting with the general manager of a new Christian station in London, because it was a very new thing in England, apparently at that time, where the laws were changed, and they were given the freedom to have Christian radio in the

Was that premier Christian radio?

It could have been, I don't remember.

It might well have been, yeah.

But this general manager came to the States to visit with Christian radio stations that had success, and he wanted to learn from us and so on. And I said to this man, you know, I always wanted to visit London, especially to see the Metropolitan Tabernacle.

And he said, pardon me? I said, the Metropolitan Tabernacle. Sorry, I'm not following you. The Metropolitan Tabernacle? Well, Charles Haddon Spurgeon was the pastor in the 19th century. I'm sorry, who?

The man didn't know who Charles Spurgeon or the Metropolitan Tabernacle, and his station was in London. How was that possible?

Well, it depends what circle you walk in. I feel that we stand amidst of the gap for that. And we need to know why people died for what may come a time.

Now, what words of counsel do you have for both our American listeners and our UK and overseas listeners and listeners in Canada? What do you have to say to all of us as a word of counsel regarding everything that you've said in summary?

I, again, this might sound heretical to some. The more I want to see likeness to individuals carrying Calvinists. Brother in the Baptist Church in Kansas gave me a little card at the top, a card carrying Calvinists.

So I'm there. That's where I am. But you know, we are not justified. We're not justified by our cerebral knowledge of the intricacies of the faith. Faith alone in Christ alone is done. When we get the preachers and as we grow in that closer walk with God, then we pray, your kingdom come, your will be done.

Very well said. And I just want you now in about two minutes to.

Remind our listeners how they can get in touch with you and also how they could invite you to speak and support the mission of CWI North America.

Well, that's our concern. While I'm doing my driving, people can get in touch with me. I can write to you. You'll pass on the email to the ancient people.

Amen. And I do want to speak with you at some point tonight or very soon. I am prayerfully considering relaunching a pastor's luncheon that I used to conduct every year near Christmastime, where I treated pastors absolutely free of charge to lunch.

And we had a speaker every year. There is such a thing as a free lunch then? Yes, there is. And hopefully I'll be able to organize that again. And I would love to have you as the first speaker to relaunch my luncheon.

And this was something that was the brainchild of my late wife, Julie, who one year said to me, instead of giving each other Christmas presents, why don't we start treating pastors to lunch every year since you have so many friends that are pastors more than anybody I know.

And we started doing that and it lasted for about a decade. And she went home to be with the Lord. And this will be the first luncheon that I am relaunching, if God enables it, since her going home to glory.

So I would love for you to be a part of that, if you are able. And I'll discuss more of the details with you later. I purposely put you on spot in public, so you'll have no way of wriggling out of it without looking bad.

Well, would I ever wonder? Well, I look forward to having you back very soon on the Iron Sherpa's Iron broadcast, brother.

Thank you very much. I'll talk to you soon, Chris.

All right. God bless you. And don't go away because we have Stephen Sokolos coming up after these messages speaking about the Nation of Islam, especially since Louis Farrakhan is planning another Million Man March, I believe, this weekend in Washington, D .C.

So don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages.

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The Nation of Islam, Louis Farrakhan, and Black Nationalism

Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. If you've just tuned us in, our second guest today is Stephen Soukalos. Stephen teaches in the area of world religions and theology at Wheaton College in Wheaton, Illinois.

He's earned master's degrees at Harvard University and Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary and his PhD in theology at the University of Birmingham, United Kingdom. He's a part of Sound Doctrine Ministries, a ministry to non-Christian and pseudo-Christian religions.

The Sound Doctrine Ministries website is sdmin .com. That's sd for Sound Doctrine, min for ministries .com, sdmin .com. It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron and for the very first time, welcome you to the all-new Iron Sharpens Iron, Dr. Stephen Soukalos.

It's a pleasure to be on, Chris. I hope you're well and looking forward to the next hour.

I am as well and to get this discussion rolling, I am just going to play a brief clip of Louis Farrakhan, a brief clip of a speech he recently gave. This is just to set the climate for our discussion on the nation of Islam.

I want to educate our listeners what the nation of Islam actually is, especially because of the fact that Louis Farrakhan is arranging another Million Man March in Washington, D .C., and I believe it's this weekend.

Here is a clip from a recent speech that Minister Farrakhan gave. I don't know what the hell the fight is about.

Over the confederate flag. We need to put the American flag down because we've got as much hell under that as the confederate flag. Who are we fighting today? It's the people that carry the American flag.

What flag do the police have? What flag flies over the non-justice department? What flag flies over the White House where a black man lives this called.

Every day? What about that flag? Well, that was just a bit of our charming friend, Louis Farrakhan, giving us a piece of his mind about the United States and our flag. But this is an interesting organization, the nation of Islam.

Many people who are unaware of its roots and its teachings assume that it's just another sect within the world religion known as Islam, but nothing could be farther from the truth. So, Dr. Tsoukalos, tell us, first of all, I know your book is out of print, but tell us something about the book you wrote, and perhaps somebody in publishing listening will bring that back into print.

I think it needs to be back into print. But tell us something about this book you wrote and why you felt a need to write it. It's also particularly of interest that you are a white Christian and a white American.

What was the thought behind this when you wrote the book on the nation of Islam?

The nation of Islam, before it can be understood theologically, and to take what I do, establish the sociological in which, perhaps you'll ask me about that later, but the book's sociological into the 19th century, perhaps the first quarter of the 19th century, all the way up to 1930.

So it has about 100 years that we can establish when we're talking about slavery. But the nation of Islam did not arise in a vacuum. It arose in a setting by which we can understand the nation of Islam, what we'll call orthodox Islam or true Islam.

It's actually a.

Heresy. Yes, and one of the reasons why, and perhaps after I make the statement we can go into its roots and its origins and so on, one of the reasons I know it's heresy is because, correct me if I'm wrong, but do they not teach that God is a black man?

And obviously, according to Islam, so-called orthodox Islam, the world religion that has millions of adherents all over the globe, they consider that the worst form of blasphemy, to give partners to God, to teach, as Christians do, that God came in the flesh as Jesus Christ, and to believe in the trinity and so on, they would equally abhor a notion of God being a black.

Man, would they not? Oh, yes, indeed. It's one of the cardinal, in traditional Islam, is that the nation of Islam publications, under what, now isn't that interesting? However, when you ask them to flesh that out, that is the nation of Islam adherents, what they'll tell you is Detroit in 1930, unpack more of that later, but that's Shirk.

It is Shirk, correct. Now, the doctrine of God in the nation of Islam is a little bit hard to discern. Nation of Islam, its theologians, if I may put that in quotes, is hardly systematic in its expression of what God is.

They have a notion of God as the trillions of years ago, who was created out of darkness, and note that. Secondly, they see Fard, Wallace D. Fard, as God himself, or Allah himself, in the flesh, and you could...

Now, tell us something about the actual background of Fard and Elijah Muhammad. Much was known about Fard at the time he appeared in Detroit. Back then, it was not an age of the internet where you could, you know, Google Wallace D. Fard.

His ID is a San Quentin inmate, completely unknown, and they weren't under the understanding that his roots could be traced back to San Quentin as an inmate. He rid himself of that name because Poole was his ancestor's slave master, and his surname was named Poole for that reason, and his Nation of Islam adherents either have an...

Two weeks after, just quickly, Muhammad Ali is no longer... He was a son, and loved to debate, loved to talk theology, and do what was known as industrial, moving up to the bigotry, as he did in... Quickly disillusioned in the 19-teens, and into the 1920s, two black leaders, as we go into the upper 1920s, two black leaders, Noble Drukus Garvey was a great...