Witnessing to Mormons part 9: Joseph Smith

Second Timothy 2 15. Be diligent to present yourself approved to God. A worker who does not need to be ashamed rightly. Dividing the word of truth. Alpha and Omega ministries presents the dividing line radio broadcast.

The Apostle Peter commanded all Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us. Yet to give this answer with gentleness and reverence. Your host is dr. James White director of Alpha and Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White, you can call now by dialing 602 274 1360. That's 602 274 1360 or if you're out of the Metro Phoenix dialing area, it's one eight eight eight five five zero thirteen sixty.

That's one triple eight five five zero thirteen sixty. And now with today's topic. Here's James White and good afternoon Phoenix. My name is Rich Pierce sitting in for dr. White today. He is once again down in Tucson teaching for Golden Gate Theological Seminary and I'm gonna be sitting in for him kind of sort of picking up a little bit where he left off last week.

Mormonism, Joseph Smith, and the PBS Documentary

Yes, we're going to be talking about Mormonism once again. The last time I was with you I was going through the book of Abraham and focusing on Joseph Smith's ability to translate Reformed Egyptian hieroglyphics.

Now the one thing I want to do this day this particular show is a little bit different than what I normally do when I come in and sit in and I kind of want to throw it out to open phones for the subject of general Mormonism general Mormonism questions discussion, etc.

I have some issues that I want to talk about and I will be kind of Introducing the show going into them regarding the person of Joseph Smith and who he was. What his origins were what his background was and well some shall we say interesting things in his checkered past as well as his checkered life and which is all in the past, but One of the things that I wish 2020 hindsight ladies and gentlemen, I really wish that I would have done this week.

But circumstances didn't allow me to do that and I have found out after the fact that I had missed it PBS aired this week a television Documentary as it were called the American Prophet the story of Joseph Smith and One of the things I would like to talk about with you today Is if you had a chance to see that show because I didn't I did not get a chance to see that show I did not get a chance to go through it.

I'm gonna be reading a little bit information from a gentleman I respect a great deal who who did get to see it and wrote a shall we say an editorial on it and I will be reading that shortly, but today's Today's show is going to depend a great deal on your participation.

I need to have you folks that have been following with us for years that are familiar with our Mormonism ministry and Are familiar with this particular subject of Joseph Smith and hopefully got a chance to see the show call in and Shall you shall we say share with me your thoughts and share with Phoenix and the nation over the Internet your thoughts on the show and how you think it was portrayed.

I'll be honest with you. I've seen a number of different secular programs done Discussing Mormonism. I saw a movie a few years ago that I thought was fairly well done starring Charles Bronson. Where he was a newspaper investigator and got went through investigations of some Mormon offshoot groups that were still performing blood atonement that were doing all kinds of interesting things to one another and he was investigating a murder that had taken place regarding one of the leaders of one of these groups and again, we we've talked about blood atonement in the past and the implications of that.

But To get into mr. McKeever's evaluation of this of this program I received fortunately in the mail yesterday his His newsletter called Mormonism researched a little plug here for him because I think he deserves it.

He is the head of Mormonism research ministry out of El Cajon, California. If you want to look up their website, they are at www .mrm .org. And he goes on here some Some comments that I highlighted here in his commentary tracing the story back to the beginning.

The film comments on the religious excitement that was taking place at the time of Smith's first vision. Only the 1838 official account is referenced. He's speaking of a gentleman named Alan Oaks who is one of the Apostles of the Mormon Church and Oaks goes on here.

Let me turn the page. Let's see here States that the resistance Smith faced by the religious leaders of his day was due to the fact that their motives were Tainted says Oaks words like jealousy and envy and threat and resentment come quickly to mind.

The possibility that this immediate resentment was based on the fact that Smith was making claims contrary to the Bible is never given plausibility. He later goes on to say that the film ignores the fact that this Mormon scripture.

It has that Mormon scripture has undergone several revive Revisions and that it does not teach the necessary precepts modern Mormons believe that they they must practice in order to achieve celestial glory.

Condemnation against the Book of Mormon and even Smith himself comes through the mouths of Smith's enemies. None of the particular arguments that drew them to these conclusions are discussed so already he's kind of going into Something that well oftentimes we hear and I think PB bet PBS as I recall a few years ago did a program on the migration of the Mormons from from the Midwest out into Utah and again the Persecutions the opposition that the Mormons face.

Well, these folks are are bitter people. They they're resenting. They resent Joseph Smith. They resent The Mormon Church this new religion that started up. They have jealousy. They have envy. They're threatening.

These kinds of terms are given to the motivations of the people who were Contrary to the Mormon movement early on to Joseph Smith's claims early on. In as he goes on here on the last page or next to last page this one's lengthy but I think it's very telling in in what it does say and the things that are very much missing apparently missing if you're familiar with Joseph Smith's Genuine history the film dares not to venture into the relationship Smith had with his wife.

Many Mormons have been led to believe that they had an ideal marriage. Van Wagner and he's speaking of Richard Van Wagner who wrote a book and this is what he's quoting from called Sidney Rigdon. Sidney Rigdon portrait of a religious excess where he's.

Van Wagner's talking about this a Multitude. Van Wagner notes the following on page 293 of this book. A multitude of Mormon records provides irrefutable evidence for Smith's prerogative with an array of women.

Many of them just a few years older than his own children and while the Prophet now stands astride the Mormon world like a colossus. In Nauvoo, he maneuvered within the charisma of his own mystique to defy both Church Nauvoo City and Illinois marriage laws as well as to conceal his behavior from his wife Emma this equivalent equivocal deportment secreted by a deferential and circumspect group of men and women Created two cultures in Nauvoo one where monogamy and fidelity prevailed the other where Eros and duplicity seemed to subvert the highest moral values and where Exonerating the Lord's anointed became more important than telling the truth.

This dichotomy left Joseph's and Emma's marriage hanging by a thread. Emma spent the last three years of her husband's life Jealously battling his errant yearnings more than once threatening to return to her family in New York.

Unquote. Mr. McKeever goes on. Several Mormon historians discuss an event where Emma Smith taught and caught her husband alone in the quote Haymo unquote with their 19 year old maidservant Fannie Warren.

Fannie Ward Alger. On Page 10 of his book Mormon polygamy van Wagner writes that there was a sexual relationship seems probable. Okay, fine. Some have argued that she became Smith's first secret plural wife.

Promising the salvation of her family. Smith also tried to secretly turning the page here Marry the 15 year old daughter of his associate Heber C. Kimball. He also hit on the 19 year old daughter of Sidney Rigdon.

She rebuffed his advances. This is the man of whom Gordon Hinckley says. I reverence him. I respect him. I admire him. I honor him. In June of 1844 several dissidents joined to print the Nauvoo Expositor a newspaper that exposed the American prophets plural wife system as the town's mayor Joseph Smith led the Nauvoo City Council to order the printing press destroyed along with all the existing copies of the paper.

Peck said, Illinois Governor Tom. This is a Gregory Peck is he's playing the role in the movie I guess. Illinois Governor Thomas Ford intervened issued an arrest warrant and ordered Joseph to turn himself in at Carthage the Hancock County seat.

Joseph. Joseph at first refused. Joseph and Hiram were actually planning to flee Nauvoo and head west toward the Rocky Mountains. According to the documentary history of the church volume 6 page 549 Emma Smith sent Orrin Porter Rockwell with a letter urging her husband to return.

Several of Smith's followers accused him of cowardice. Stating that once he was gone their property would be destroyed and they left with it and they would be left and they left without house and home.

States the narration his enemies were not willing to wait for a trial broker a settlement or risk. Joseph somehow. Wrestling from their grip their faces daubed with mud and just to disguise their identities.

The force stormed the Carthage jail in a flash. They were up the stairs and firing through the door unquote. No mention is made that both Hiram and Joseph had earlier in the day received two smuggled pistols from a friend named Cyrus Wheelock also in the cell with Smith brothers were.

The Smith brothers were Willard Richards and John Taylor. Taylor records that when a musket ball pierced the door and mortally wounded Hiram Smith Joseph instantly arose with a firm quick step and determined expression of countenance approached the door and pulling the six-shooter left left by brother Wheelock from his pocket opened the door slightly and Snapped the pistol.

Six successive times only three of the barrels. However were discharged. I afterwards understood that two or three were wounded by these discharges two of whom I am informed died. That's from documentary history of the church volume 7 page 103.

We wholeheartedly agree with Richard L Bushman when he says. Even if Joseph Smith Trespassed on American sensibilities about freedom of the press that did not that did not license people to gun him down.

Despite the concept of frontier justice the attack on Carthage Jail and the killing of Smith was unjustifiable. That from Mormonism Research Ministry Bill McKeever very well done and that was his. That was his impression of the the television show.

And I'd like to know what your impressions were if you're a Mormon and you feel that mr. Smith was portrayed in a certain way. Positively or negatively. I'd like you to give us a call 1 -800 -550 -1360.

I'm sorry, that's one triple eight five five zero thirteen sixty and if you're in the local Phoenix dialing area we're at 602 two seven four thirteen sixty and. Our first caller is calling in from Fresno, California.

Mike how are you today? Great. Thank you.

Yes, my question is is there a high suicide rate among Mormon missionaries? I.

Think it's an excellent question. I do want to ask you a question before I answer it though, and it's kind of a. Well, my question is kind of curious as to what leads you to ask the question in the first place.

Was there something you watched?

Well, I had heard from some I don't have all the data in front of me as far as why I You know believe that it was just reading various unconfirmed reports. That didn't substantiate it with you know, any information that read about it and I was just wondering how.

Real it was. Well, I'll give you I'll give you an alpha to make a ministry standard answer on this question because we hear it a lot. And it's not necessarily all about Mormon missionaries, but Mormon youth in general.

A One of the first films ever to be released In in my adult lifetime that I've ever heard of was a film called the Godmakers. Are you familiar with that film? Yes, okay, and in the Godmakers one of the issues that is brought up is Kind of this well, you know, they've got this really high suicide rate among youth up in Utah and It's a sensational thing to do it's a sensational thing to say because when the numbers are measured up Utah is really no no different than the rest of the nation.

Utah's no really different than if you will even evangelical Christianity when it comes to this issue and and youth. The fact is is they blend right in with the norm. I don't know anything about missionaries.

Having this problem quite frankly the number of missionaries that I've talked with I would be quite shocked. One of the things that it takes to be a Mormon missionary for two years out there, especially in this country and dealing with the kind of folks that Hopefully more and more evangelical Christians are becoming more knowledgeable about Mormonism Mormon teachings and are better prepared to give an answer.

But I have I've sat in front of Mormon missionaries who clearly Their faith was rocked. After our presentation and after our talking with them I've seen Mormon missionaries just jokingly after listening to dr. White to go on for a half an hour.

So one of them jokingly took his badge and threw it across the room. That was funny and we all laughed but Their next question was well, what do we do now? But even in those circumstances To my knowledge the missionaries finished their mission and that's a tough thing to do when you don't believe that the Mormon Church is The true church.

So in a lot of ways what they find themselves. What we found that they do is they kind of reel back into what we call the Mormon testimony trying to reaffirm Their belief in the Mormon Church despite whatever doubts we've placed in their minds.

And so oftentimes when we talk with them, we kind of take the approach of look, you know. Let's give you some books or maybe we can send them to you after you're off your mission. Listen, we know you're busy.

We know you've got two years on this mission and we don't expect you to read them right now. But if you would just kind of tuck them away when you're done with your mission when you get a chance to kind of reflect Back on all that's happened on your mission.

Give the book a read. And consider because oftentimes what happens is they really don't let that guard down until after they're off their mission. So I would be really surprised given my experience with the temperament and the the mindset that the missionaries have.

That that that would be an issue. I also felt somewhat the same way and that's why I was mentioning that it was all anecdotal. Yeah, you know a nature and I really appreciate a answer in regard to that and one that you know.

It doesn't necessarily attack them, you know personally.

Yeah, my opinion on and this is basically Alpha Omega's evaluation of the God makers and much more so the God makers too is That it it got into some sensational stuff and left some important information out and I think it's important for us who are involved in In this kind of ministry to be able to to say that and to be able to say To folks because there you don't know how many times we run into Mormons were there talking with them and they go Well, you just be you've been watching the God makers too many times, you know, and there's just all this false information in there, etc and I don't know that it's necessarily false, but it's more innuendo and a better way of Presenting that information regarding Mormon youth in my opinion would have been to say look This is an organization that Claims a tremendous amount of the population of the state of Utah and Utah has this high this this suicide rate that's right there within the norm of the rest of the country.

Now if this is the one true Church If this is God's anointed Church.

You follow my direction here. Yes. But you would expect the suicide rate to be at less than you'd be you'd expect it to be remarkably lower.

Right, you would expect God to be really kind of doing a lot of different things and and given the fact that the the Mormons Especially in Utah for the most part live the kind of life that the church goes around proclaiming that they live.

They're very sweet people. They I they're very sincere. They believe what they believe intently. They do everything within their power to live. The life that the Mormon Church has laid out for them to live and.

You see the difference. I mean when you talk with You meet someone who's a devout Mormon, you know, this is not a general Philistine that you run run into at work. This is not just somebody that you know, you're gonna encounter on a routine basis that you know.

Is like I said a secular kind of individual this some this someone who's very devout. So if that's how different they are in their lives, why is this result just the same as the rest of our society? I.

Really appreciate this what I consider to be a really sound answer on this and.

Thank you very much. You bet. Thanks for calling Mike. I appreciate your call. You're welcome and Mike's called two seven. Well, actually Mike called one eight eight eight five five zero thirteen sixty one eight eight eight five five zero Thirteen sixty we'd like to hear from you today in a discussion on general Mormonism just kind of looking at the Question and answers that Christians have for it.

If you're LDS, I'd like to talk with you today and I get like to get your impressions from whoever about the issue of the book American prophet the story of Joseph Smith and see what you thought of the movie.

Like I said, I didn't get a chance to to see it but from Bill McIver's perspective It does sound like a lot was left out of the life of Joseph Smith that in my opinion as well as shared by Mr. McIver is pivotal in understanding who Joseph Smith was and the deception that really he perpetrated on unwell-meaning people and.

Just to get into that and start discussing it you may want to know well if you didn't see the movie. And I don't know if they went into all this information, but his origins. Where did Joseph Smith come from?

Who is this guy? And how is it that all this stuff came about? Well, first of all, Joseph Smith was born on December 23rd 1805 in Sharon Windsor County, Vermont now Keeping up with the the the Smith family as they moved around is very important.

And I don't want to get it too deep into it today. But in a future show when I get to substitute for dr. White I'm going to delve into the first division and you've heard if you've talked about Mormonism at all you are familiar with the first vision story of Joseph Smith and all the things that go along with that that is predominantly the foundation of Mormonism.

If the first vision didn't take place the rest of it falls like a house of cards and. So as we go through this, we understand that Joseph Smith was born just before Christmas on 8 in 1805 his family moved to a town called Palmyra in New York in 1815.

They then moved to Manchester in 1819 1919. He was the fourth of nine Children and one of the things that folks on both sides of the fence like to go after Joseph Smith whether positively or negatively Was the fact that he had very little formal education.

It's my understanding that Joseph Smith Essentially had a fourth grade education from the Mormon perspective. That's a really good thing how can a man with such little education accomplish so much and from the Critical perspective of Joseph Smith we sit back and say it explains a lot it explains a lot of Joseph Smith's actions and his writings and his abilities.

His character is. Unfortunately, his character is said to be that of the highest according to the Mormon perspective on the issue. There's a couple of quotes here I'll be honest with you. I I don't have Journal of Discourses in my possession anymore.

I have given the volumes away. It's a 26 volume set and has very valuable Valuable quotations in it. We've gone to the LDS collectors library for our quotations, which has all that in there and I was looking around in dr White's library this morning for the CD so that I could get a couple of quotes that I didn't have in my manual here and They were not there and the character quote from the Mormon perspective Journal of Discourses volume 14 page 203 if you have it I Can't get a hold of because I couldn't find the CD so I'm kind of at a little bit of a loss here.

But I do have some other quotes for you regarding Joseph Smith from Journal of Discourses volume 7 page 289. Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last Dispensation and is now engaged behind the veil in the great work of the last days.

No man or woman in this dispensation will ever Enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. From the day that the priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding up the of the scene of all.

To the winding up of the scene winding up the scene of all things every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith jr. as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are.

So as as a pivotal decision maker in your salvation as a Mormon he is Absolutely crucial. I guess would be a way to to put that from Journal of Discourses volume 8 page 223. In fact, let me throw this out see if I can't get the phone lines lit up with this.

There are some of you part of Alpha Omega Ministries who have the Journal of Discourses set that I gave you. You know who you are and I'm kind of hoping that you'll give a call to area code 602 274 1360 and read for us a quote from Journal of Discourses volume 7 page 289 as well as one from Journal of Discourses volume 14.

It would be very helpful. Journal of Discourses volume 8 page 223. Every intelligent person under the heavens that does not when informed. Acknowledge that Joseph Smith jr. Is a prophet of God is in darkness and is opposed to us and Jesus.

And his kingdom on earth. What do you suppose I think of them? They cannot conceive their own degradation. If they could they would turn away from their wickedness. I know them, but they do not approach.

They do not know me. We live in an atmosphere. They do not approach they have not ability to this to see the path. We walk in and I believe that that quote is from Brigham Young. Part of my notes and one of the things I was hoping to do with this set this morning was to be able to nail Down the source of the quotes and whose sermons it was from.

I had written that in another version. I couldn't find this morning. Journal of Discourses volume 9 page 312. In the first epistle of John it is written beloved believe not every spirit. But try the spirits whether they are from God because many false prophets are gone out into the world hereby know ye.

That the Spirit of God the Spirit of God every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God and every spirit that confesseth not. That Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God and that is the spirit of Antichrist wherever you have heard.

That it should come and even now is already in the world. This is no test to this generation for all men of the Christian world confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh. This generation however is not left without a test.

I have taught for 30 years and still teach that he that believeth in his heart and confesseth that With his mouth that Jesus is the Christ and that Joseph Smith is his prophet to this generation is of God and he that confesseth.

Not that Jesus has come in the flesh and sent Joseph Smith with the fullness of the gospel to this generation is not of God. But is Antichrist all can who confess that Joseph Smith is sent of God in the latter days to lay the foundation of his everlasting Kingdom no more to be thrown down and will continue to keep his commandments are born of God.

Joseph Smith, the Journal of Discourses, and Mormon Claims

So we're gonna go ahead and take a break real quick here. My board op is over there quickly screening calls because I'm normally the guy screening calls. We're gonna go ahead and take a break on the dividing line.

We will be right back. And we're back on the dividing line today, my name is Rich Pierce and I'm sitting in for dr James White today who is actually on the phone line with us right now, you know, James I know what you're gonna say.

It's gonna be I told you so Something along something along those lines. You always warned me always keep a hardcopy set of the journals around.

And here I was gonna tell you. The CDs are in the CD case right next to the computer. Get in the car and I'm heading back to Phoenix after a teaching and and all of a sudden I hear well I was going to look this up.

I.

Please I understand that the person who has the set that I gave away. Called and said, yeah, I'd love to look that up for you. But it's really hard to do that when I don't carry them in the car with me.

We both know who that is and I don't carry the set with me either especially in rental cars, but it is all there and Of course people immediately go Oh Journal of Discourses Journal of Discourses. But as we noticed last week in citing from the temple preparation manual The Mormon Church doesn't mind quoting from the Journal of Discourses When what is taught there remains consistent with what they believe today?

Absolutely, but when it's a doctrine, they'd rather not have people discussing all of a sudden. Their apologists are all over the fact as well, you know, we're not sure about the Journal of Discourses and you know, we're not totally certain of the Accuracy and all the rest of stuff and there's a real double standard that's being being used there.

But everyone has talked to me about that film has said the same thing that it It really presented Joseph Smith and a very positive light. That there was really no interaction with the information out there and that shouldn't surprise us.

PBS is going to Drink deeply at the well of our society which says You cannot judge anything because you have no moral stance to begin with and so let's not talk about his Introduction of polygamy let's not talk about the time that His wife beat on him with a broom when she found out actually beat on the who was it that Joseph Smith read?

Section 132 the Doctrine and Covenants to. I think it may have been Hiram and I'd have to look at it and Said well, you know, I am a needs to be told of this and Joseph Smith like.

Hey, I'm not gonna do it you'll do it.

And she beat him out of the house with a with a broom when he tried to read it to her. So that kind of stuff you you shouldn't expect PBS is going to Barely address because they know that they're going to be accused of being quote unquote negative anti whatever else it might be.

That's just the fact that you can't any longer be honest with history in our society. Without being accused of being unloving unkind so on and so forth and Really just the manifestation of that. So all those citations are on the CD.

That is next to the computer in my office. Hopefully I won't find all my books on the floor and I get back there. Anyways, but anyhow appreciate the work on the other citations and I just wanted to give you a ring and.

Bring up a couple of issues. Okay. Well, thanks for giving us a call today James. All right. And we're gonna go to our next caller right away and we're gonna go to Jill in Mesa, how are you today Jill?

How are you? I do need you to speak up so everybody can hear you real well. Yes.

Yes, I have. You've personally read it. Have you studied it.

Well, I've read it. And yeah, I've browsed through it. I.

Understand certain quotes, etc. But have you read every word? Yes. Mm-hmm. Well, there is a promise in the Book of Mormon. Mm-hmm. We're on I 10 what 30 1045.

I 10 4 5 I've had missionaries present that to me a number of times and I've I've pointed out that it is a conditional point of view that if I do all these things if each of the points that That are made there and I don't happen to have the Book of Mormon right in front of me because we are talking about Joseph Smith today, but general Mormonism as well but.

The interesting thing is is that then? Is. Are these things? Gonna happen. Okay, then it's sufficient. It has to be after all these other things then it'll take place and the point is that The Bible doesn't do that.

The Bible points out that grace is a free thing Ephesians 2 8 through 10 that it is a work of God. That it is a free gift of God and it is not a matter of works that you prepare yourself in advance to do And have taken care of all these things and then once you've taken care of them then God then his grace is sufficient for you.

What more what's more is is that the Book of Mormon is monotheistic.

It does not teach a plurality of gods. Were you aware of that? I believe in the Book of Mormon.

Well, do you believe in the Doctrine and Covenants as well? Doctrine and Covenants section 132 plural are. I believe. It's section 130 verse 22 where it talks about the plurality of gods.

Why are you spending your time downgrading the Mormon Church, why don't you spend your precious time if you don't believe it. Why don't you spend your precious time? teaching the gospel of Jesus Christ.

From the New Testament, that's a very good question. I'm glad you asked it. Jill the motivation for doing programs like these as well as ones on Jehovah's Witnesses Roman Catholicism and various other groups is much like a circumstance where if you were to Foresee that someone was a about to walk out in the street in front of a car They were walking and they're in danger You would have an obligation to warn them to do whatever you could to save them from impending doom.

Okay, I'm gonna hang up now. I just can't abide what you're saying. Well, can I at least finish answering your question?

Okay, so ultimately We do these kinds of programs and we do what we do we go out to. If you've ever been out to the Easter pageant In Mesa, you've probably encountered our group out there passing out tracts.

I don't know if you've ever done that but We do what we do because we care. Okay, it's very serious to us. It is something that we honestly believe in our heart of hearts.

That the Word of God don't have a leg to stand on. Goodbye. Okay.

Well, I guess Jill wasn't real happy with where I was going with this. So we'll move on to Richard in Phoenix. How are you today Richard? How you doing? All right. I had that volume 7 in my hand. I do carry around with me.

Glad to hear somebody does. We're looking for a quotation from page 289 and the thing about these quotations is that they are not always. Not always. The whole page there are segmented so I can't tell you which paragraph okay is particular here but it has to do with the character of Joseph Smith and I'm not sure if you were able to pick some information out there to share with us.

Sure.

Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation and is now engaged behind the veil in the great work of the last days.

Oh, you know what? I just realized that was a mistype and I did in fact read that. Oh, you did. Okay. Do you have volume 14 there? It's it's in the other room I do but what I did not read was volume 14 page 203.

Let me put you on hold rich. I'll pick you up on the other side of the break. Sure, and we'll we'll read that quote. Hang on. Okay, and We're gonna go to gentlemen by the name of Brandon in Salt Lake City, Utah.

I have to tell you something folks about Brandon. I met Brandon in Salt Lake this last general conference. He is a fiery young man who is a former Mormon himself and He is very zealous to see people like Jill come to know the truth that he's come to know.

How are you today, Brandon?

I'm great. I really didn't know if you'd remember me. Yes, sir I do have. I did have the My CD with me. Discourses it looks like you already have a volunteer on that. Yes. I'm gonna go ahead with a different question I had.

Okay, shoot. Okay. Are you familiar with Stan Larson's book quest for the gold plate? I'm afraid I'm not. I'm afraid I'm not. Well, maybe maybe you'll be. Familiar with what it's talking about. Okay, go ahead.

It's a book about the life of Thomas Stewart Ferguson. Mm-hmm. A Book of Mormon archaeologist born and died a Mormon. He had a really strong testimony of what he believed. He went on he got I Mean the church turned him down for money.

Mm-hmm. To start his organization to start archaeological search, right. And He went on and started it by himself off of private donations. What ended up happening. The church finally took over. They they gave him a fairly small assignment in it.

They they turned it over to the then Apostle Howard W Hunter. Mm-hmm. And and it was called the New World Archaeological. You ever heard of that?

I'm afraid I haven't. I in my studies haven't dug that deep into the issue of archaeology. In Mormonism, it's been more theological and some history like for instance the history of Joseph Smith.

But go ahead and share your thoughts here. All right. Well, my thought was that his end result he died not believing in the History of the Book of Mormon he thought is in the end of 19th century literature.

Mm-hmm.

I I have to tell you I've heard of a number of I've heard mentioned a number of Archaeologists or scholars in the BYU arena who Honestly don't believe Mormonism to be true. It's more their life. It's more their family.