June 3, 2003

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic here is James White.

Opening Comments on the Debate and the Priesthood

Well, good afternoon and welcome, I hope you can hear me. Yeah. Well, it's noon where you are in New York I'm not sure on the dividing line that this is the only place in the world that I know on anything Normal meal at McDonald's that I come back and there's this pause and then but then you had the You know, we can tell you're a tourist visitor.

You don't live around here and you had mustard and so place out there no two ways about it and Technology available to us these days and that on the cell phone. Hopefully The folks back in the Phoenix are able to make my I've got a good self.

Most of you know, we've been coming out here now For eight years are coming out about my fourth year I'd say in January and then during the summer normally in May and that's what's going on this time though.

It's actually now it's the end of May early June and we just had number eight I rhymed like that. But the great debate number eight and Mary the second year geriatrics and philosophers fourth year Saints and images passing Madrid and now this year Mitchell Pacwa again and this time on the subject of the Roman Catholic.

We have not debated before so when we make these debates available, that will be a new subject that we have not written on or debated on before and I will Recommend this debate to those of you for example who have a role in determining Materials or Wednesday night classes things where you can do.

You know, you have some discretion in materials that you present. I think in light of in my hometown of Phoenix, Arizona big news of the past Ryan Signed what is in essence that he had simply moved from one place and Yes, then I just discovered this morning that last evening the bishop came out and and gave a completely different story and said that he had done nothing wrong and yet the diocese is putting out hundreds of thousands of dollars in fees and setting things up and And agreeing to do this and everything just to give the bitch of the new ad then Why does he need immunity in the first place is what I'm wondering but it's one that is of great interest to individuals right now and the media and that is that Priests and that it's just simply those strange plain Baptists and a few other Protestants that have gotten rid of such a colorful well not Asked found in priests which you find of course in the Anglican Church and things like that so in reality one of the most fundamental questions that I wish has in the context of the Media's discussion dreaming at that point the pained office of a priest one of the many Aberrations of the debate that we had a Thursday night here at the Huntington townhouse and Huntington Here on Long Island up off of the right on the Jericho turnpike just a little bit east of the 110 and if you live out this directly where it used to be how and We had a real good group very interested out the mega ministries.

Both most of my family was able to be there my wife and daughter were there. My son my son has joined and so he's learning about and so he wasn't able to be there, but My wife and daughter were there and Rich Pierce flew out and Simon Escobedo and Warren Smith I'm the daughters were with him.

And then we had a bunch of folk on Phoenix and then we had a bunch of folks meaningful book table has been something is about it, but you know the Roman Catholics would have these huge and we wouldn't have anything and so it's nice to have the the book tables back there and.

And of course then the ministry that can and and and questions and things like that you sort of Multiply the amount of good that you can do in a situation debate itself Was on an unusual topic as I said I've never debated and I shouldn't very confident the historical either biblical and historic Mediatorial or priesthood a New Testament outside of that of Jesus Christ found a number of Roman Catholics that this was the case.

And made it clear that it had the Jesus or day on their authority so on and so forth not in the sense of being United with Christ. You have elder have deacons you have two offices the elders and the deacons and and no such thing as a priest.

And what happened the first century path without any Christians a calling upon anyone and calling them a priest but in the. Even in the second century same thing takes place. You get toward the end of the second century and Tertullian in Latin starts of the priesthood and.

By the middle of the third century you have it being regularly used by someone like Cyprian. But the first important to mention that in the same way as a modern Roman Catholic priest. And I read a number of citates was I knew that historic in the middle of the third Mitch I find anything about it downloaded various things would come up back in 19 January of 1991.

That Mitch Pacwa in our debate on the mass had used in Matthew do this and remembrance of me to come up. But then eventually the the main argument here you have a man who hosts on EWTN he is a is a fall languages of the priesthood in numerous contexts and all rest and.

Assessing Mitch Pacwa's Case for the Priesthood

What kind of an argument is going to be presented. What's the what's the best case scenario for Rome and the best case scenario ended up being a Mitch Packwood did the best job. He has done on the level of speaking there have been a lot of times have been pauses and.

Some ten previous debates there was none here. He was very passionate and I knew that he would be he is a priest. And as such he's going to be passionate about it the subject of the priesthood obviously not.

You know not not surprising at all to me. It was very personal to him and and so he there wasn't much in the way of positive that he was doing what many Catholic colleges do and wandering around the various and you know the landscape and you know getting over to souls at a time discussing issues of and he was right here on the nature of the guy and he made a lot of much more of a.

Now everybody would say mine almost always are my closing statements. I do try to wrap everything up and don't mind having a certain level of passion in it. But both of our clothes it seemed to me the reason that he should have been dealing with more intent upon making more of an emotional connection with his with his.

Interesting and engaging to watch and to listen to his excellent job of our moderator. Listening to me and everything a father. Um, so he did a great job speak the biblical and he didn't send it over to me.

But he mentioned a he told me the next day. He got a an email from someone and you never know coming from but yeah I mean, you know some wife is on the fence thinking about becoming Catholic. I don't know if that means this guy was action about the priest who's going to be very certainly have not heard anyone.

What presented. Yes, and he must be in control of the family and the the the the the obviously you're going to use the singular. They're not the plural. So that seemed to me to be a very back the the the to one.

He asked a question and the the ongoing offering incense as butyruses you expect meant to briefly cut that terminology. But I said, well, no one in the New Testament makes connection between your church.

It's not a church office. It's not a sacrifice in regards to sin. It's giving never in regards. Then the big thing while it used the T99 that's flipping full with oblivion just never expected to hear before.

Lengthy discussion reasons that Paul doesn't use the term priest because he couldn't. Well. Why couldn't he. Well because you see who's studying sir in one day and he no you're not. And he's like what?

You you cannot be a cocaine a priest. You're a car me if you see Paul couldn't use the term priest. Because of because of that because He was because that would not be a part of the Klan. He couldn't bring himself to do that.

You take the comments of a female professor at Vanderbilt in Hebrew 2 ,000 years at the time of Christ and you read that back in the New Testament. And that's why the word priest doesn't appear but presbyter does instead and we're supposed to read Presbytery.

Amazing. I had to be careful. How are we to be kidding like Mitch Packer? I really didn't even the cross-examination I I got a rule you've laid down Regarding Paul and he uses it of Christ everything that's your prophet one new Testament.

Well, and the funny thing is it's written to whom the very people this rule allegedly have the most meaning to Iran look in the books like first second Timothy and Titus. He's not even writing to Jews.

He's not writing from Palestine, he's not writing to Palestine. He's not writing in Hebrew. There would be absolutely positively not the reason there would be the first reason to follow This kind of argumentation.

There's no reason at all To believe that that's why the term priest does not appear in the New Testament. I mean even if you were to grant that the the attitude of this this Hebrew professor some validity 2 ,000 years ago, you would only have validity maybe in the Gospels.

It would not have any validity in Paul's later later writings the church I mean, it just simply didn't make any sense at all. It was it was extremely Extremely Weak as to as to the the whole form of the argumentation it was and there that that's why a priest that amazed me.

And I think anyone who listens the bit to the debate I'm excluded. He tried to cite myself in regards to out of Ignatius of a monarchical Episcopate Would be the early church. That wasn't true. I mean, I don't think the biblical argumentation went.

He didn't present anything that was not rebutted and I presented much that was not Rebutted and would have to be three three four one eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. You can make this a long-distance phone call of mine.

And things like that, I'm not sure I'm just sort of catching things up. I'm watching the channel as I'm sitting here for one if you were there It's concerning that debate or debate in general things to mention about the debate itself what they demonstrated.

They remembered that night that were made to me get online at eight seven three three four one and when we come back We'll talk.

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Audience Reflections on the Debate

How the pilgrims progress. It's not an easy way. It's a journey.

Heard my brother Steve camps down there than he does through it. I want to mention something There were two things to say heard to the turn wondered if he embraced it. It's just me and he said another Christ and he did not compromise that in any way and So that was that was interesting and then one of the things that really bothered me everyone in the chat channel knows the most certain way For you to get yourself in things like that.

The most certain way if you do a kick band out of cross-polygon argument as Roman Catholics frequently do the bodily assumption of Mary or the priesthood doesn't explain that the the Evidence is equal for both when that kind of blasphemy is uttered.

And so I was more than just a little bit a mitch pack had very thing in regards to the Trinity and the priesthood so during the cross-examination, I specific biblical evidence doctrine of the Trinity and the biblical evidence for the doctrines Roman Catholic priesthood are Equal to one other there's an equal amount of evidence for the one is for the other is equal clarity.

He said yes, I Absolutely closing statement. I I said right there. I am offended that a truth That is so plainly revealed in Scripture the deity of Christ the personality and deity of the Holy Spirit that that so plainly taught in Scripture and yet you then got a belief creatures and import all sorts of anachronistic concept in the text of equal To the evidence of the doctrine of the Trinity what an amazing Statement, I certainly don't think that set him in good stead with many of the Protestants there who has any knowledge whatsoever concerning and So but then you always have to remember pretty something memorable is said last gonna be the main thing that people remember and This year's debate was moderated by the pastor Long Island and he did moderate last year's debate and he had Made a very was that set up a microphone.

And you know, you basically have to put a bouncer there to beat somebody up if they start preaching which is what everybody does. That that just and so he suggested that we do what we normally do in other debates and that is utilized Questions that way that everyone turn in their their questions at the break and but then we then Answer them as he reads them.

So you don't have to fight with people who are basically trying to you had to get in and so 15 minutes 10 to 15 minutes. For audience questions, even though we had pretty much started close on time they've done a real good real good job and staying on time moderator and and He rules then I pack a whole series of you know Do you have to believe the priesthood to be saved that you need the priesthood to be saved as a whole?

Series of things that and I must have gone on for seven or eight minutes just as response. I tried to be more brief and make this a couple points, but then the last question was about the youth the turn all when Protestants works because There's a proper way to present this question.

There's an improper way and I've never heard anyone do it. I know Mitch Pacquiao when you hear someone to demonstrate the youth the term father Paul Says I become your father in the faith and all these other passages and he can just with him.

I was since I wanted to ask and I basically want to ask him. Do you feel it's light of the fact not merely as a part? Do you feel it is fair to demand that I? Who do not recognize Rome as a religious authority believe that Rome has not do these debates he and he's administering the debate The Condition, but he would not do it if we would not do that or important than worrying about title well, the question was asked of him and so I Then had the last word I then quoted I quoted from a Roman Catholic priest to the meaning of the words Father when used to the priest and said since I do not believe that Rome possesses the gospel.

Then I cannot acknowledge This offensive to me to have to use this term and I think I think Roman has the thing that got remembered man I had but you just said that you refused to call. The father pack was not worthy because I said well actions and I did include in my comments I would never require that someone called me reverend because that's the religious title not a title in regards to what work you've done or or Graduate programs of study or writing that you have accomplished in the past.

And I said and further I explained the issue. But I could tell these ladies were very emotional and I even said well, you know I invite you to calm down and reason with me. Well, they wouldn't what we can call you Dr Whitehowl until it became very obvious that they had no interest in in reasoning with me logically at all about how mean and kind I was because I dared to make that statement issues of Mary and their emotions not with their mind and Even if a person in a code and kind fashion It does not make any difference still be identified as being mean or and so it's truly an amazing thing as far as I can tell we've only have would be nice to have some pictures up there to you are out and I is online why in the world anyone would do that my goodness, but I look different I thought it looked pretty much the same, but I looked a lot different.

I was writing back then and Writing that year was my biggest year over 6 ,000 miles that year Sunday down in New Jersey and Had a wonderful time with them and all but now after a week or so I'm getting it down pretty well at Dodge and truck, which is not a good thing I know New Yorkers and I couldn't use mine people would honk at and turn this car and what is my dream car?

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Caller Discussion of the Priesthood Debate

Let's talk to Mike in there another but just trying to talk about the priesthood in general like this. It's a but not specifically with Rome teaches about the office but. Then you came in and grounded it nicely with the usual quotes and reference to this with a Christ humbly obeying his priest and coming to the altar and whatnot and.

It seemed to I don't know if it really threw him I'm sure he was expecting it in some way, but regardless he wasn't able to really deal with it. And I don't think there's any question who ended up winning that.

It doesn't seem like like I said, I have not heard any Roman Catholics who have been observance of debate have adopted the idea that if they're debater If he makes it through well, and he can say some some nice things.

That that is indicative of a of a victory level there was even any any contest and. So it does it does strike me as interesting that thousand-year history struggles so mightily in issues like this to be able to to and to Excite the people that were already convinced of that position before they walked in any meaningful That our time and it is interesting someone in Channel last night was mentioning yeah, you know, we're listening to some Catholics talking about the debate and You know guarantee you if the roles were reversed, you know.

The truth is had nothing to do with whether it's a good day bad day. Doesn't matter who is a better debater the truth what I mean it I I just know. Exactly. What was so it is. It is most interesting and as I recall Mike you're sitting on the front row.

So you got to see the down the down the way, didn't you? Oh, yeah. Um, I was somewhat.

Offended I suppose at them because of their reaction when Bill Shishko told them to Quiet down because they're just taking the time of their own debater and they said in return that that's fine and I didn't really think that was their choice to make considering that they're you know a group of two or three out of hundreds of people all of whom paid and Who desperately wanted to see this dialogue go forth, but they're Sovereignly deciding if you will to just take up the time because they need to applaud the fact that they think they're right.

I suppose because there wasn't it's not and the worst part was that that particular point in time I'll be taking time, but then they didn't care at all actually had made some Statement thing that a Catholic was to applaud for and so they went, you know, they went nuts on it and Their response and so it was somewhat I would think It would be embarrassing.

I think to the a person on the Catholic side that they would behave that way, but They're Roman Catholic women and I can guarantee you if I had said something about the Virgin Mary something would have been thrown at so Expect that to go but I did appreciate that.

Not only did you drive up from New Jersey, but One of our regular callers Steve from New Jersey the guy that I try to say is one of the only Christians in New Jersey. It was also there and he pointed out another person from New Jersey That makes three there seems to be revival going on there in the industrial state, so.

Now that all in all I think it went very well. I think the points were clearly shown to anybody who wants to see them that there is no defense for the Roman Catholic priesthood even in the general concept that Packer was trying to aim for.

Let alone this, you know that office with transubstantiation and confessions and whatnot.

Yeah, I think it would be a very useful for for folks who want to be able to give an answer on this subject. It is not a subject that I have addressed in writing before and so if you want to I think this would be an excellent debate for you to add to your To your list and it would be very useful to you in the process again.

Thank you for no problem. It was pleasure. All right. Thanks a lot for calling Mike. All right. I got like three three four one is the 50 saw a lot of folks that I had not seen before. I guess I should mention we had a Unusually high both sides.

At that particular debate. I think one of the reasons that the Catholic side was as well represented it was. Because it was a full moon. I don't remember was because Mitch would didn't mention it on his on his program and.

So I think we had some EWTN advertising going on there. So I think that helps to make it a little bit more of a of a success now. You may ask well, that's the eighth year. How about how about the ninth year?

What type of and our plan right now for next year. We certainly would really like to see James Aiken stand up to these change his name officially. So out of respect said that. Because it's arms and has twice.

Had him agreed to do the debate of Long Island and then he's been unable to do so. So I'm not really sure what the story there is. But if I have to pick up the phone do it. I think it would be excellent to debate Jimmy Aiken and the subject That we want to handle next year is the apocryphal.

Is the apocryphal the right and as the example of that is the that was an issue that came up in the Bible answer man? Discussion it was not a debate even though Catholic answers Presented as such and so that will be the subject for next year.

We hope and pray will be on the apocryphal. Let's see if we can get Eddie in real quick before the end of the program. Are you there? I'm doing fine. They read the scripture and would be tantamount to calling it through the mass.

And if he didn't have a legitimate position, then the mass didn't have a legitimate position. Then right. Yes. Well, definitely. Yeah, I think it's good. He's an example you gave. Yeah, I think it's good to go.

Because it certainly seems to me that most Roman Catholics have never been challenged in this area. And hence it wouldn't be something that they were accustomed to thinking about themselves. So I think it would be good if folks get these tapes and I'm sure in New Orleans that you're probably going to get these tapes and and and sit down with a bowl of and.

And watch right? You've had plans at our church and the gentleman who was in men particularly. Getting together like on a Thursday night and go over the debates because a lot of the fellows thought well, you know I don't want to hear people argue about the Bible for an hour or so and I Explained to him the importance of it because as you've mentioned before Contrary to what some people think which is that you just like to I guess you would say intellectually to fight.

This is about Clearly representing both sides right and having the best the best. You don't search out the worst debater you always go for the person who You believe the best at the topic because that would do the most service for the truth.

That's exactly right that's exactly how we do it and Unfortunately with that our program it comes to a conclusion and I thank you all for listening to this long-distance version of the dividing lines.

I don't believe we're gonna be able to do our Thursday night edition this week. This will have to do it for this week, but Lord willing next Tuesday. We'll see you right here live on the dividing line.

God bless. The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries.

If you'd like to contact us call us at 602 9 7 3 0 3 1 8. I'll write us at p .o. Box 3 7 1 0 6 Phoenix, Arizona 8 5 0 6 9. You can also find us on the world wide web at a omen org. That's a OMI n Dot o RG where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books tapes debates and tracks.

Join us again this Thursday evening at 5 p .m. For the dividing line.