Evangelizing "the Church of Christ"

The Apologetic Dog

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:04

One is reading the Old Testament the old law and then you know, you graduate into the New Testament We see two totally different, you know

00:16

Everything because I mean the ceremonies have salvation was different in the Old Testament to New Testament I Do yeah, okay

00:23

This is where we part ways because I believe Romans 4 we were justified had our sins forgiven the same way

00:30

Abraham was which was by faith. And so I don't think there's two different Gospels and Old and New Testament It's always been in the finished work of Jesus Christ All right, good evening to everybody welcome to the narrow way podcast and Allow us to introduce ourselves and our guests.

01:10

I am the host of the narrow way podcast. My name is Andre Moore Minister for the

01:15

Oakleaf Church of Christ and we do have our co -host with us here sister or Toria Pittman and we also have a guest special guest with us this evening.

01:27

His name is the apologetic dog also known as named

01:32

Jeremiah so we will be talking with the apologetic dog this evening in regards to Believe that the topic of discussion we have here is baptism

01:44

So we'll talk about baptism as baptism necessary for salvation Things of that sort and we are you know, as obvious we're going to be very cordial and very polite

01:56

That's you know what we do and we are going to allow each side to express their thoughts

02:02

And you know as we get to the scriptures and rightly divided scriptures So the apologetic dog if you would like to introduce yourself or say anything further

02:12

Well, thank you so much and you're Andre. Is that right? Yes. Yes Andre. Thanks so much, man

02:17

So, my name is Jeremiah Nortier. I'm a pastor and elder at 12 -5 church in Jonesboro, Arkansas so we're in the

02:24

Deep South over here and My heart has been in ministry serving the

02:30

Lord for oh Wow, I've been a Christian now for over 20 years the

02:37

Lord has been so gracious in my life just with The gospel illuminating my heart to looking to Christ alone by faith alone all to the glory of God alone

02:46

And I've been in pastoral ministry now for about eight years And so about two years ago, my church family was telling me hey, you should pursue apologetics

02:56

And so that's been something I've been doing for about two years now and the apologetic dog Some people are like why dog and I try to say

03:04

I try to explain that it comes from First Timothy 6 verse 20 where Paul says that Timothy Oh Timothy guard

03:12

The gospel or the the deposit that's been entrusted to you And so the heart behind my apologetics ministry is guarding the gospel of grace

03:21

As as we will discuss what that looks like more is guarding the gospel Against false gospels that say it's faith plus works.

03:30

And so defining terminology is so important in Apologetic endeavors and looking at proof text in light of context and so maybe we can get a little bit more into that But that's essentially where I'm coming from Andre and oh

03:51

We will get this discussion started and you know as we go ahead and discuss these things, you know

03:57

We want to keep it in the atmosphere of you know As we're having a conversation within a living room and things of that sort as well again, you know just allowing you know each side to express their views and the topic at hand this evening is

04:12

Baptism is baptism necessary for salvation So we do want to allow you to take the floor in beginning this discussion

04:19

Jeremiah and to discuss your Okay, well y 'all just cut me off because I'm known to ramble and yellow preachy sometimes

04:30

But my understanding of baptism is that baptism is a wonderful gift from God to the church now

04:39

I believe Baptism is meant for professing believers those that already have

04:44

Their sins forgiven those that are trusting in the perfect Savior and his finished work

04:49

And my understanding of baptism comes from kind of the Greek word and there's a few different forms of it

04:55

But bad tits Oh bad tits ma But when we look at the Greek it's literally a ceremonial rite that's being immersed into water and so since it's a ceremonial rite, we participate and bad tits

05:11

Oh means that it signifies the forgiveness of sins and I love this because baptism is a beautiful representation a beautiful picture of those who already have their past sins forgiven because they're

05:23

Expressing their faith in their working participation Within a church context and so baptism isn't just individualistic.

05:33

It also includes a baptizer And it's in the context. I would argue from Acts chapter 2 and other places in the book of Acts, but the ecclesia

05:42

It's in the context of the church meant as a celebration. I would say

05:48

Baptism pictures the reality the spiritual realities of what God has already done in a person's heart and in their life

05:56

And so that's kind of the positive side that I would say of baptism Especially looking to actually 38 is my main understanding of where I get that functional understanding of baptism but something that I would say

06:09

I do not see baptism as is the instrumentation or means of how someone has their past sins washed away and I think one of the dangers that I see and y 'all maybe you've seen some of my content

06:22

My heart is to say this this can't be the means of how you have your past sins washed away when we look to Acts 238 or Acts 22 16

06:31

Because when we look at the word or God's of my or works It's not our participation in a list of commands that makes us right before God We are justified by faith apart from works as the

06:44

Old Testament Prophesized that Jesus taught about in the Gospels that Paul and in the letters to the

06:50

New Testament along with the other Epistles to the church just say it's our faith faith and works are related

06:56

But they are distinct as we all know James chapter 2 says a mere professed faith only without a change of life

07:03

That's a dead faith. And so hopefully with our conversation. We can look at a number of different proof texts acts 238

07:10

X 22 16 mark 16 16 just to list a few first Peter 3 21

07:15

I like to bring out that baptism there has a surrounding context that a lot of times is talking about maybe baptism of the

07:24

Holy Spirit and I believe that that is the working of the Holy Spirit a baptism without hands that Regenerates a heart that causes a person to look to the

07:36

Savior in faith And therefore in our experience when we have taste and seen that the Lord is gracious Then we desire to be obedient to all that Christ has commanded us

07:47

Well, what do y 'all think far as just getting the conversation started? I like I said, I don't want to keep going and Give you some time miss.

07:55

Oh, that was great You know, I appreciate what you said because that's helping me, you know to to gain a better understanding

08:02

You know of your belief and you know kind of where it originates from. So thank you for the art

08:08

So I guess um, I guess the first thing that I want to know how do you officially?

08:15

Like what's your official faith? Are you Baptist? Are you Pentecostal? Are you holiness? What would you say?

08:21

Yeah, I would thank you for the question. I tell people first and foremost I'm a Christian my soul authority comes from the

08:29

Word of God now when I say Soul authority. It's the ultimate authority. So I think there are some other great authorities

08:37

But lowercase a that come throughout church history. I love the

08:42

Baptist heritage It's funny because we're talking about baptism, but within kind of the

08:48

Baptist heritage. I would definitely identify Once it's understood that I follow Christ and him alone ultimately for the forgiveness of my sins

08:56

I don't mind to also say now underneath that banner. I would definitely identify as reformed

09:02

Baptist But sometimes people think oh Jeremiah you care more about a

09:07

Denomination than looking to the Bible as your soul authority and that's usually where I try to bring some clarity out there

09:18

When it comes down to um baptism, I heard you say basically that it

09:25

Signifies the forgiveness of sins in my fair in did I quote you right on that? It signifies that okay

09:32

So let me ask you this if if it signifies the forgiveness of sins

09:39

Who it who is it signifying it to is it other people other

09:45

Saints the lost? Jesus God, you know, like who is it signifying it to all the above?

09:52

Oh, okay. Okay Okay, and if that is the case then thank you. Um, what would you say?

10:00

About Philippine a eunuch, okay so When we read that account, um, and I'm in just for the listener's sake.

10:09

I'm actually talking about X 8 26 through 40 where the

10:15

Ethiopian eunuch he only knew of you know, the Portion of the gospel.

10:23

He did not know the whole gospel. He didn't know know about Christ So When Philip, you know was told, you know to go and tell him about the gospel and all of that If I understand what you're saying at some point before The eunuch said hey, there's water his sins were forgiven.

10:48

Is that fair to say from your perspective? Repeat that last thing you said, please. Sure. Sorry.

10:54

I know it's a lot So so in a nutshell the Ethiopian eunuch

10:59

Before he said hey, here's some water what hinders me from you know being baptized At what point

11:07

I would say was he was his sins forgiven? Yeah. Well a great question So back in verse 35 then

11:14

Philip opened his mouth and beginning with this scripture He told him the good news about Jesus so With acts being a narrative book

11:25

Primarily descriptive I would interpret when he explained the good news to Philip About how

11:33

Jesus is a perfect Savior. He is the fulfillment of Isaiah 53. Hey, dude

11:39

That's okay Hi, Mrs So with acts being a narrative book

12:01

I would interpret right here where he was preaching the good news That's when he received the gospel by faith

12:08

Which Romans 1 16 would tell us that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation when someone receives that in faith

12:15

Then they display their faith in good works So I would say the fact that he wants to be baptized shows that he understands that the good news was talking about Jesus He's put his faith in Jesus Christ alone

12:28

And that's why he is desiring to be obedient in baptism to display his faith to the world

12:33

Even though it's just before Philip because this is kind of a missional context and then obviously he is

12:40

Displaying his faith before God who already knows the heart and he would already be justified

12:45

Okay Thank you, thank you That's why I was a little confused because I was like, okay if there's no one, you know there to kind of you know show

12:57

Or or you know the I guess your faith and then God already knows, you know, whether it's sincere or not

13:05

You know, that's why I was like, okay. Well Who is around because this is a person that is displaced, you know, he is he is a far far far away from his

13:15

You know country And so, okay So in that so in that instance

13:21

If he was saved, you know before being baptized And so now that he says hey, you know what hinders me if if he would not have gotten baptized

13:35

Do you think he would still be safe? Oh Great question. So when someone is justified, this is a this is a really important term

13:44

I think in talking about baptism because Paul would argue that justification is by faith apart from works

13:51

When someone has been gifted saving faith and are justified before God and having all their sins forgiven

13:59

Then they necessarily will display that faith by being obedient to all that God has commanded

14:06

Not a perfect faith, but we're we're demonstrating our faith in Sanctification. So if someone refuses to get baptized, but they say they're a

14:15

Christian Then we understand that that's a mere said faith that doesn't save anyone and so we can never see the heart

14:21

We can only look at someone's professed faith by their fruit a good tree produces bad or a good tree produces good fruit and a bad tree produces bad fruit

14:31

So the fact that someone is desiring to be baptized This would be good evidence that they have a sincere faith now time will tell like I said, we can't infallibly see the heart

14:41

But when we see that the unit is saying what hinders me from be baptized This is excellent evidence of someone that already has a changed heart and is wanting to display their faith

14:52

And so in a missionary context, um, he would be displaying his faith before Philip and Obviously all things are before God and two other verses that are important that we might can touch on a little bit is

15:04

We are justified by faith apart from works and Genesis 15 6 That's how

15:10

Abraham was justified and then back at 2 for Old Testament text The just shall live by faith and so justification is always by faith apart from works and then a believer lives out their faith in Sanctification which is sanctifying works of obedience to all of what

15:27

God has commanded Okay Got a question I will

15:36

Some questions that I want to ask a little bit earlier you had made the statement that God already does the work in regards to our faith

15:46

So I guess the question there that I want to ask is is there anything that we can do on our part?

15:54

with regards to our faith in the Lord and Jesus Christ since by your statement, you said

16:02

God already did work and Then the next question that I want to ask you stated

16:08

That we are justified by faith Which is what I'm assuming you're you're taking from the book of Romans for that.

16:17

Is that correct? Romans Ephesians Luke 18 and then like I said in the

16:23

Old Testament in the narrative of Abraham He was justified by faith or is counted to him as righteousness based on his faith and not his circumcision

16:32

Okay. Okay. I'll I'll follow up with that question a little bit later, but I did want you to Answer that question with regards to is there anything that we can do on our behalf if God has already done the work?

16:49

There's nothing that man can do in terms of his works to be made right before God and so defining works really helps that out

16:56

But when I what I was referring to the work that God does We read in John chapter 6.

17:02

I may have to look it up around verse 28 and 29 But the fact that we believe is a work of God so it's not something that we pull ourselves up by our bootstraps and that we conjure up on our on our own the work of God is something miraculous earlier in John 6

17:18

Jesus is doing miracles He's doing the work of God and then you have a crowd that's following Jesus wanting to fill their tummies

17:26

And they're like, what what can we do to be doing the works of God? And then Jesus says the most spectacular thing

17:32

He says oh you must believe that's the work of God It's not anything that you as a human being can do

17:38

God must do a miraculous work and this was actually prophesied In Ezekiel 36, this is a beautiful passage

17:46

If you don't mind me reading this is kind of the framework that I'm coming from But Ezekiel 36

17:51

God promises that one day he would put his spirit within his covenant people and this is the promise of The New Covenant he got y 'all.

17:59

So this is Yahweh on high speaking. He says I Will sprinkle water on you and you shall be clean from all of your uncleanness and from all your idols

18:10

I will cleanse you. This is the key. I will give you a new heart and a new spirit

18:15

I will put within you and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh and I Will put my spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey

18:29

My rules and so when I say that God does the work I'm saying man is born dead in his sins and his trespasses

18:37

Romans chapter 3 says there's none good We are all born children of wrath in our federal head

18:45

Adam and so from birth we're not born neutral We're not born in this like perfect sinless state

18:51

We're born as enemies of God and God must do a miraculous work on our heart so that we can see the

18:58

Savior for who? He truly is and that's a work that God does Ephesians 2 8 says that our faith as believers

19:05

Is actually a gift from above that he worked in and Philippians 2 12 says that yes

19:11

God is at work both in you to will and work for his good pleasure

19:16

So verse 12 says we work out our salvation and fear and trembling. I would say in terms of our sanctification

19:22

The verse 13 says oh, but it was God that first did that work in you he who began that good work of Regeneration in your heart he will see it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ Philippians earlier says so when believers are at work

19:38

It's in terms of our sanctification And we don't bring our works to the table in terms of our justification

19:43

That's by faith apart from our works because if we were to add a work like baptism It would be adding to the already finished work of Jesus Christ Okay There was there was something that you said there

19:57

While you were talking in regards to you know, we are born children of wrath, which means we're born sinners

20:04

Right on there. There is a problem with that You know that that we do see in Scripture because if we were born sinners, then

20:13

Jesus Christ was born a sinner as well so, you know G Scripture tells us in first Peter 2 and verses 20 through 21 there or 22

20:25

For what credit is it if when we are beaten for your faults, you'd take it patiently

20:31

But when you do good and suffer if you take it patiently, this is commendable before God for this

20:37

For to this you were called because Christ also suffered for us leaving us an example that you should follow his steps

20:44

Who committed no sin nor deceit was found in his mouth? So that would be the you know

20:52

The issue with being born sinners because Christ was fully human being and we needed that human sacrifice for human sins

21:03

Yeah, well, I appreciate you sharing your thoughts there Andre I will say kind of Reformed Baptist and Church Christ.

21:12

We have completely different worldviews. We have a different understanding of who God is So we have a different understanding of who man is and we have a different understanding of the gospel itself now the way that I would back up a little bit as I don't think

21:27

Being born a sinner is what it means to be human because in the very beginning

21:33

God created Adam from the dust of the ground and breathed into him the breath of life and He created everything that was good good and with man.

21:41

It was very good And so in the beginning God created man and he did not have a sin nature

21:47

Now all of humanity that is born in Adam. I would argue from Romans 5

21:52

We definitely are born sinners not seeking God. We are at entity. We're not just corrupted by our environment

21:59

But we have corrupt hearts as Ephesians 2 says that we are dead in our sins and trespasses and we are by nature

22:06

Children of wrath but going back to Jesus, how can Jesus be the perfect God man and somehow

22:14

Surpasses the stain of original sin with Adam. Well, I think it goes back to in the beginning

22:21

You're not God didn't make Adam a sinner, right? He he made him in his image the

22:27

Imago Dei and so in Luke 135 the angel answered to Mary The Holy Spirit will come upon you and the power of the

22:34

Most High will overshadow you Therefore the child to be born will be called.

22:39

Holy the Son of God and so also in Romans 5 It talks about Jesus Christ the one who is to come

22:47

He is the only one that that has been born and lighted the fall that actually did not he was born of a virgin

22:54

So he did not suffer the stain of original sin that we bear because we all died in Adam Romans 5 1st

23:02

Corinthians 15 Says but Jesus being the the second and better Adam He never sinned

23:09

That's why if you put your trust in him Then you can have all your sins paid for because he is a perfect Savior not just your past sins

23:17

Okay Thank you for that comment. I do want to follow up on that comment with regard as we're you know, talking about You know

23:27

Talking about being you know born sinners First John 3 and verse 1 before yes, whosoever commits sin as you're familiar with the verse

23:39

Transgresses also the law for sin is the transgression of law So my question to you with regards to this would be is a baby able to transgress law.

23:51

I Would say a baby is not able to transgress law But babies still die and so a popular question

23:57

I ask Church of Christ is why do you think babies die? And you know, that's big sin was introduced into the world into the world as Romans 5 tells us through one man's sin

24:10

Namely Adam, you know sin was introduced into the world. So I Okay And it made the condit when sin was introduced into the world.

24:20

It made the conditions likely for Men to sin, but one of the

24:27

Penalties or punishments for sin with regards to Adam was death You know and God had instituted or prophesied back in Genesis 3 15 that Jesus Christ will come into the world to rectify that But that was the punishment all the way in the beginning

24:44

So I have a question. So would you say the infants suffer death by the sin of another?

24:51

Well, you know Romans 5 Let me put that there Yes, sir Romans 5 verse 12 wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world and death by sin

25:02

So death passed upon all men for that all have sinned so and again this you know just goes back to the point of where God sold

25:11

Adam and Eve, you know in the garden and the day that you eat of the fruit you will surely die and That was passed upon all men until Jesus.

25:19

This was to come into the world, but I thought you and it it doesn't contradict

25:26

Sin being you know a transgression of the law when we

25:32

We look at babies for example They don't know how to walk. They don't have any knowledge of anything else

25:40

Therefore they don't have knowledge of sin So, you know with regards to being born sinners with sin being a transgression of law

25:48

You know, we can't really say that babies and we can't we can't say that babies are born sinners

25:55

So this this is what we mean because when you look at verse 19, it's talking about all of humanity were made sinners

26:01

It's by nature. And so when we talk about original sin, we're not saying that babies actually sin We're just saying their entire nature is corrupt from birth and they will sin now

26:11

I noticed that oh, we're shaking her head when I asked you why do babies die? Is it because the sins of another she shook her head?

26:18

No, I think I was gonna double check because you were actually affirming that it's because of Adam's sin So, yeah, so it's two ways to look at that So as Andre is explaining, you know that death because of the original sin that entered into the world

26:35

Death is a thing now, you know, I'm saying so so death happens Versus it would not have been happening.

26:41

You know had that not happened. You understand so What he's saying totally true what

26:48

I was thinking about ways Let me see, I think it's Ezekiel 18 verse 20.

26:54

Yeah. All right, then. All right now come on So, you know there where it's talking about like, you know, the son will not inherit the sin of the father vice versa

27:14

So, you know where there's where there's they're saying I'm thinking to myself like where does their sin come from You know, but but I think you just explained it.

27:24

Basically what you're saying is that It's not that they have seen when they come in is it's the fact that they will

27:34

Okay, they will by nature. They will by nature. Okay, so Do you think that that happens?

27:41

Like, um when they know right from wrong So no, they're born by nature

27:48

Fallen sons and daughters of Adam, so they they don't become sinners when they sin

27:55

They are sinners so they necessarily will sin and when we look at church history

28:00

There was only one heretic called Pelagius that believed babies were born without sin

28:06

And it was possible that they could live an entire life Sinless and so the church universally has

28:13

Condemned that as heresy and I look at you know A church history is a good metric to study and look at but when

28:19

I look at Romans all sin and fall short of the glory of God and when we look at the wages of sin is death and we look at Infants dying it's not that they had personal sin

28:32

But they suffer the consequences of a sin of another and so that's why even when we look at Ezekiel 18

28:39

There's no injustice with God Even though Adam represents all of humanity

28:46

We still bear personal responsibility with our lives. So I would contend.

28:51

That's what Ezekiel 18 is talking about now Are they damned? Because you know, there's different types of ways to view, you know, this sin that we're talking about You know, like I was just saying, you know, there's the there's the fact of the matter that we come into a sinful world

29:09

Where sin was introduced once and that's it. You know, we can't get rid of it, right?

29:15

This is it's the same thing with death. Once death was introduced. We can't get rid of it It's gonna take

29:21

Jesus to get rid of it, right? Okay, so with these little ones Okay, so we're saying that they sin, you know, they do they do things that are wrong

29:31

But they don't know that they are wrong, right? They have to be taught Is that sin on there like impugned to them, you know, so when they die, are they damned?

29:42

Now you you said a good a word you said impugned now, maybe the full word is impute.

29:48

Is that fair? Yeah Yeah, so Romans 5 said, you know, we're already talking about verse 12 about how all die in Adam, right?

29:57

Death is universal because sin is universal And so 19 says for as by the one man's disobedience the many all of humanity were made sinners and I would say by Imputation meaning that we are derived out of the essence of the first Adam the fallen man so even though I believe infants are

30:21

Sinners from the womb by nature now that is Ephesians 2 verse 3 by nature children of wrath and God is holy.

30:28

Holy. Holy Also believe that God is merciful and saves to the uttermost and I don't think in I Personally believe all infants go to heaven but not because they're without a sin nature

30:41

I believe it's because God is merciful And so even though they're totally depraved and if they would have continued to grow up It's not that they would have searched for God on their own

30:51

They would have been like Saul of Tarsus going the opposite way now by God's mercy. He Intervenes in their life and I believe that we have enough principles to know the the character of God is merciful and It seems very consistent that he would save someone that is the lowest son an infant that bore

31:11

That died in infancy an infant that died in the womb But I would say just the fact that an infant is saved by God and goes to heaven for such are the kingdom of heaven

31:22

It's not because they were sinless I would say they they had a corrupt nature, but God is merciful

31:31

Interesting. So why do you suppose that God says we have to become like little children?

31:40

child like faith Infants they can't do any accomplishments on their own

31:45

They're not gonna be able to participate in a ceremony a child just believes in his parents he believes

31:53

By the accomplishments of another and so we must become like a child with a faith alone now not a mere

32:01

Intellectual ascent not just believing facts, but a heart change a trust that God can accomplish his promises

32:09

Like a little child trust their parents Okay. All right. Sorry. Um, I Want us to not to stray too far away from you know, the the topic at hand is baptism necessary So I want to because we have been touching on Romans chapter 5 for a little bit

32:28

I want to Bring go or go back up to Romans chapter 5 and verse number 1

32:35

Justified by faith. So I've got three questions that I want to ask one is

32:43

I want if you could Tell us when or why was is

32:50

Paul talking about justification in Romans When did he begin talking about justification in Romans?

32:58

And when does it culminate in regards to justification in Rome? You may have to remind me all those questions.

33:06

What was the first one win or the one? Yes, why did Paul begin talking about justification in Romans?

33:16

It's such a good question, I don't want to answer that. Okay. So if we look back in Romans chapter 1 Probably one of my favorite verses verse 16 for I am

33:25

NOT ashamed of the gospel for it is the power of God For salvation for everyone who believes and so we're gonna talk about more what that kind of believing is

33:34

Is it a mere ascent to facts only or is it something much deeper? He says for everyone who believes the

33:40

Jew first and also the Greek verse 17 I think I think this is the answer to your question, but there's two verses.

33:47

I want to keep in mind We look at verse 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith as it is written

33:56

The righteous shall live by faith Paul's writing about justification because Salvation has always been the same.

34:05

There's always been one gospel message from Old Testament to New Testament Now we have there's progressive revelation meaning the the proto

34:14

Evangelion of Genesis 15 6 that the offspring of the woman would crush the the serpents head all the scripture further expounds on this gospel promise and so Paul is explaining that Salvation has always been by faith in that Messiah that perfect Savior Now I think throughout church history you have heretics you have those that have added

34:38

Works you've added law to the gospel of grace and so Paul is gonna make it

34:43

Abundantly clear even to the Jews not your working participation and ceremonial mosaic

34:50

Laws are gonna make you right before God It's by faith and then he even goes to Abraham who precedes the

34:57

Mosaic Law and said Abraham even the list of commands that he Obeyed like circumcision leaving the land of her

35:03

Willing to offer up his son Isaac on an altar none of those works justified him

35:10

It was always his firm trust in the promises of God So that's the wine and he quotes from Habakkuk 2 4 and verse 17 the rights the righteous the just shall live

35:21

By faith now, that's sanctification. That's Paul's language at first Thessalonians, I believe chapter 4 where he really goes deep and what it means to live a holy life a sanctified life

35:33

Paul also says in Romans 8 29 that we are being conformed to the image of God's Son So sanctification is growing in holiness

35:43

Sanctification is becoming less like the world and being conformed more into the image of King Jesus now

35:50

He kind of begins the letter that way I would say justification Starts after Romans 1 2 and 3 that talks about the universality of Condemnation for all people now,

36:04

I would say that's important and I would I would include infants infants don't deserve heaven They they they have died in Adam.

36:12

They Do not have a righteous nature that was lost at the fall And so Romans chapter 3

36:19

Paul also kind of switches gears and he talks about Justification that God is both the just and the justifier for those that Have faith and so Romans chapter 3

36:33

I have a lot of conversations about when do you contact the blood of Jesus? Is it by your working participation in the ceremony or is it at the point of faith?

36:42

and so I try to point people back to Romans 3 23 for all of sin and fall short of the glory of God and are

36:49

Justified by his grace as a gift with whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood to be received by Faith and so we receive the blood atonement of Christ when you put your faith in King Jesus And so Romans 4 makes that probably the most clear

37:09

Chapter in all of Scripture that those that precede the law of Moses like Abraham justified by faith apart from works

37:16

King David in verse 6 With the quotation of Psalm 32

37:21

David was under law Justified by faith apart from works the law and then the Apostle Paul identifies his personal justifications with Christians after the laws fulfillment and then the the summation verse which you begin with This is this is kind of tackling the the win and the the to what extent verse 5

37:42

Therefore we as Christians have been justified by not our works not our baptism even in Romans chapter 6 to come

37:49

But it's by faith. We have peace true. Shalom. The Jews would have understand

37:54

Oh, we want to have peace a a true ceasefire Well, you got to put your faith in the author and the perfecter of our faith who is

38:01

Jesus Christ and his perfect work Who never sinned? Okay, so that's where you would say

38:08

Excuse me that it, you know culminates there Yeah, therefore since we have been justified by faith.

38:17

We have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ Okay Thank you for those thoughts and the speaking where the

38:25

Bible speaks Well, I thank you for those thoughts but this is the point that I wanted to point out with regards to that as we

38:36

You know talk about justification We know the the bulk of Chapter 1 is talking about the sins of the

38:44

Gentiles and then chapter 2 is talking about the sins of the Jews but also here in chapter 3, you know is talking about both but the point of emphasis here is in chapter 3 in verse number 8 and He says and not rather as we be slanderously

39:04

Reported as some affirmed that we say let us do evil that good may come whose damnation is just so He's referring to the justification by doing evil that good may come now immediately after verse 8 beginning with verse 9

39:21

He starts talking about justification the whole justification process again. He's condemning both

39:27

Jews and Gentiles he's quoting from the Old Testament and then we you know drop down into Verse 25 through 27 there it tells us there because everybody is you know sin all of sin and fallen short of the glory of God, which is why we need

39:42

Jesus and then we get into Chapter 4 where we're justified by faith the same way

39:49

Abraham is justified so he's he's telling us from chapter 3 in verse number 8 why he begins talking about the justification because he was slanderously reported and Teaching let us do evil that good may come and then he goes on again and he explains

40:07

You know how everybody is under sin then he explains that Jesus is you know, how we you know, have our sins remitted

40:15

He was the propitiation for our sins and then in chapter 4 again, you know as you you know talked about with Abraham We're justified just the same way

40:24

Abraham was and then in chapter 5 in verse number 1 he says that we are justified by faith

40:31

But again, it doesn't stop there because the question that he asked in Romans 3 in verse number 8 he's going to ask again following Chapter 5 we see that all the way down to verse number 18.

40:47

He still talks about justification But when we get to chapter 6 in verse number 1 he asked the same question

40:57

What shall we say then shall we can continue in sin that grace may abound now he began 15 right

41:06

Well, he began to discourse originally in Romans 3 and 8, you know saying that let us do evil that good may come and He's concluding after the justification that he so eloquently explained in chapter 3 4 and 5 with this

41:26

God forbid, how shall we that are dead to sin live any longer therein? Know ye not that so many of us as were baptized into Christ were baptized into his death

41:37

So he this is actually where it culminates the justification process. This is how you are justified in Jesus Christ But I want to continue reading

41:46

He says know you not that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death

41:53

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death That like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the

42:00

Father Even so we also should walk in newness of life, which is talking about that spiritual resurrection

42:07

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death We shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection

42:15

Knowing this that our old man is crucified with him that the body of sin

42:21

Might be destroyed that henceforth. We should no longer serve sin. Now. Here's the problem because Paul is talking about Justification being had once one is baptized, but if we we look at verses

42:38

Two through six here. He talks about baptism. You're you're buried with Jesus Christ You're in the likeness of his death in verse number six knowing this that our old man is crucified with him

42:51

That only takes place in Baptism and that the body of sin might be destroyed.

42:57

So the the question would be is the body of sin destroyed contrary to what we see here and If it's so would that be doing just as those who accused

43:11

Paul slanderously Saying that let us do evil that good may come because Paul says that the body of death is destroyed here

43:20

When you're you know buried with Christ in the likeness of his death. The old man is crucified with him

43:26

That's when the body of death is destroyed So would it not be? Slanderously saying against Paul let us do evil that good may come if we say that baptism is not necessary No, we just we interpret these verses differently

43:44

I think you would agree None of us are neutral and saying once I was just letting the Bible speak and the other ones not we're both

43:51

Interpreting because you're interpreting that a person's working participation Is actually the moment when they come when they contact the blood and when they come out of the water

44:00

Then their past sins are washed away. I would say that Romans chapter 5 talks about that.

44:07

It's by faith. We are in the new Adam the better Adam we have All of his righteousness imputed to our account

44:14

Romans 5 one says by faith and so here for one we would have to establish what what it means to be baptized and Does it qualify as our gods of mine a working participation on man's part?

44:28

Like you already read a few times Verse 4 we were buried therefore with him by baptism into death in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead

44:39

By the glory of God the Father we too might walk in newness of life for if we have been united with him in a death like his then we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his and so Jesus actually died and actually resurrected our baptism is like it there there is both

45:02

Continuity and discontinuity. It's not a literal death and resurrection, but it's a likeness.

45:09

It's a Representation and then I would say actually when we do a full analysis of what baptism is

45:16

I would juice understand the ceremonial right How did John the baptism preach about the forgiveness of sins and a baptism of repentance?

45:26

Well Jew this relates to Acts chapter 2 a Jewish audience will understand that if you are ceremonially unclean then

45:33

Levitical priest at Yom Kippur would They would be fully bathed in water

45:38

They would confess their sins the high priest and put it on the scapegoat and it says it would take away their sins into the wilderness but we know

45:46

Hebrews chapter 10 says the shedding of blood of bulls and goats the scapegoat the the

45:54

Levitical priests that were bathed in water this signified the the forgiveness of sins

46:00

It didn't actually forgive sin because that is when you put your faith in Christ alone

46:06

And then I have a question for you real quick How do you understand the word works?

46:11

Like what's the definition of them or God's in mind? Okay, good question. And I'll answer that before I do answer that I Just want to state again

46:22

Romans 6 and 6, you know It tells us there that knowing this that our old man is crucified that the body of sin might be destroyed now this is you know talking about the baptism destroys the body of sin and Once in verse 7 for he that is dead is free from sin.

46:40

So this is a clear Statement that says that baptism destroys the body of sin

46:49

But I will answer that that question we understand baptism differently there because you're seeing it as the working participation in the moment that your works are aiding in Being set free from the bondage of sin because I would push back to Romans 4 and 5 to say that double

47:05

Imputation happens at faith not when you're working along with faith that is to conflate

47:10

Justification and sanctification and to conflate faith and works Okay, I I'll get back to that, but I do want to answer your question what is works and I do want to go to Ephesians as you know,

47:29

I'm sure you're very familiar with you Ephesians since we've been in Romans, so if we go back to Romans 4

47:35

Okay, I'm curious to see how you would interpret verses 2 3 4 5 and 6

47:40

And I'll read a little bit as you're kind of getting there for if Abraham was justified by Ergon So the noun form of works he is something to boast about but not before God But what does the scripture say

47:53

Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness now to the one who are gods of my

47:59

Works his wages are not counted as a gift But as his due and to the one who does not or gods of my again

48:05

But believes in him who justifies the ungodly his faith his pistis is

48:12

Counted as righteousness and so verse 6 I'll just one more just as David also speaks of the blessing the forgiveness of sin of the one

48:19

To whom God counts righteousness apart from works So what's your understanding of or gods of mine and maybe because there's tons of examples of works

48:29

But what is kind of the key functional definition of a work? Well, and when we look at this this term works here we have to understand that there are works of merit

48:40

Which is you know your personal works there works of the law of Moses and then there are works

48:46

That God has created before the foundations of the earth were laid that we ought to walk in them when you bring up Abraham in Romans chapter 4 verses 2 through 6 there.

48:56

I believe that you read justified by faith it goes back to a

49:02

Statement that I'm pulling up here with regards to Genesis chapter 26 and verse number

49:07

I have a question when I asked you for a definition of works You gave me three different examples and so my point is what definition of works to all three examples of works presuppose

49:17

What's that definition of works? Well, and I'll read the the definition here works

49:25

Business employment that is which anyone is occupied any product, whatever anything accomplished by hand art industry mind

49:33

There's no any any product of effort or any activity done by human effort.

49:38

Was that a good definition? Right any effort any any? Activity, so my question is are you doing any effort in baptism?

49:49

Well, and this is the the point and that's a part of the works that God created in Jesus Christ, but this is the point

49:57

Abraham did not do any good works of his own merit of his own personal being to be justified before God Not of his own merit not of his own personal merits

50:10

So he did any effort to be justified before God. He wasn't taking any active steps of obedience in your view

50:16

No, when you asked me to define the word works Aragon and I gave you that definition and Any kind right?

50:25

Well, I believe the point that you're trying to make is that it's his own work That's your reference.

50:32

Is that correct any effort when he when he left the land of our God commanded him There was effort in him leaving.

50:38

So that's a work He was circumcised in Genesis 17. Well, that was a work He and in James chapter 2 pointing back to Genesis 22 he was willing to offer up his son

50:50

Isaac on the altar James chapter 2 literally calls that a work And so yeah These are all of his efforts and Romans 4 says and none of that justified him before God It was the same

51:01

I would push back against that because that is those are acts of obedience

51:07

Which are called works which which are your effort and that's why I would say that belongs in a believers sanctification not their justification

51:13

Because I think our conversation is demonstrating your gospel is a faith plus works in my

51:19

I'm trying to say You are justified the moment of faith And since your heart has changed then that will lead to good works as you were trying to quote

51:27

Ephesians 2 10 But works belong in a believer sanctification not in their justification Well, and and this is the this is where I'll push back because you know, we go to Ephesians 2 10 as We know it for we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works

51:44

Which God has before ordained that we shall walk in them These are works that God had ordained not that we are there

51:52

So when God is that we are to be baptized, that's the work that he created which is a work for a believer sanctification

51:59

Not justification. That's where we part ways is I would say Ephesians 2 8 9 clearly says it's by faith not by works that we are saved past tense justified verse 10 is saying

52:10

But just because you're saved past tense by faith Then your whole life the way that Jesus on the

52:16

Sermon of the Mount says do good works for others to see Mankind to give glory to God verse 10 is saying your whole life after your point of faith and justification

52:26

Is meant to be a sweet -smelling aroma my light in a dark world And so like I said something that I encourage these conversations to think about is we can't conflate

52:37

Justification and sanctification they are related but they mean totally different things Right, and this is where when we began this this section on Romans 5

52:49

Talking about justification that this is why I brought up Romans 3 and 8 which is where Paul started talking about justification and it culminated in Romans 6 with baptism

53:00

Saying that's how we are justified, but I want to stick to Ephesians just Ephesians for a moment because you do

53:09

Well, we will go back and forth but I just wanted to you know Bring this point out here because you brought up verses 8 and 9 as well

53:17

When we look at Ephesians, you know Ephesians is really I'll let you make your point

53:23

And if you want to ask me a question about I won't cut y 'all Okay. Okay. So Ephesians is you know talking about the

53:31

Jew and Gentile relationship the Jews? They you know felt like they were chosen, you know the chosen nation

53:38

From God. Well Paul in the beginning in chapter 1 says that we were chosen from the foundation, you know

53:45

Because that's what God had Intended because he knew in his foreknowledge that man was going to sin

53:52

So he already made the provisions for Jesus Christ to come before the foundations of the earth were laid But he's talking about this

53:59

Jew Gentile relationship and he's making the emphasis that we are not

54:05

Justified by works of the law of Moses because that's what the Jews felt they had to be justified by the works of the law of Moses and that's why he brings out here in Ephesians 2 and 8 for By grace, you are saved through faith and that not of yourselves

54:19

It is a gift of God not of works Not of the works of the law at least any man should boast

54:24

Because they felt like if they worked the law if they can work their way into heaven Now you can't boast because it's a gift from God the grace of God for we are his workmanship

54:35

Created in Christ Jesus unto good works. So there are good works to be done and those works do include baptism

54:43

Which God has beforehand Ordained that we should walk in them now and this is the point where I think we separate

54:52

It's with regards to works you you feel that works

54:59

Baptism if you can correct me if I'm wrong, you feel that baptism is a work on our part.

55:04

Is that correct? I would briefly say it's the powerful working of God in a believer and a believer sanctification

55:12

So it's it's both a work of God and a work of man because it's our sanctification God is at work and we are working out our

55:22

Salvation sanctification, but it's also God through the Holy Spirit literally in dwelling the

55:27

Saint causing us to obey like Ezekiel 36 Okay, so When God causes us to obey

55:37

Then do we have a choice to be able to walk in those good works that he created

55:42

Absolutely got God's choice and man's choice are compatible Okay, so this will actually bring us back to Romans chapter 6.

55:52

Okay, and I But I I will ask you the question here

56:02

You know with regards to the topic at hand as we're you know talking about baptism and you know,

56:09

I laid out the the statements here in Romans 6 verses 1 through 7 here that baptism is

56:15

Putting us into the death of Jesus Christ Verses 6 and 7 tells us that this death destroys the body of sin

56:24

For he that is dead is freed from sin. So my question to you is do you?

56:31

Say that the body of sin is not destroyed in baptism Well, I would say when we are immersed

56:39

Baptized into Christ by faith that is that's when we receive a new nature. So I'm not necessarily looking at a sacerdotal

56:50

Working participation in understanding Paul. I think Paul being Jewish He would have had what was spoken in the

56:57

Old Testament about how Levitical priests were bathed to signify the forgiveness of sins only

57:04

Jesus was able to accomplish the forgiveness of sins and yet Saints in the Old Testament their ceremonies did not wash away their sins and Paul makes this the case

57:14

That in Romans 4 that believers are justified the same way Abraham was and he was justified before it the ceremony of circumcision he's not gonna turn around and say well and this this

57:24

Ceremony of baptism. That's when a Christian is justified. So mean you are differing over the meaning of baptism

57:31

Because I believe this is picturing according to the semantic domain of baptizo and the

57:37

Old Testament background It's what Paul is teaching us. Is that when we are immersed into Christ by faith?

57:45

That's when we are made new now that is expressed by our working participation in baptism, which is a believers sanctification not the moment of Justification so I would say there is a harmony in Romans 6 verse 7 and Romans 5 verse 1 that faith isn't talking about a faith

58:04

That's worked out in a particular work of baptism It's showing us that we have been immersed into Christ by faith apart from our works

58:14

Okay, so and I'll Ask this question Dan. You cannot go ahead.

58:19

Oh, Toria So I just want to clarify That baptism

58:27

Just by you know your statements here baptism does not destroy the body of sin

58:33

Baptism doesn't wash away past sin Now when I say baptism I'm talking about the ceremony where a person has to get up and walk into the baptistry where somebody is going to Immerse them.

58:45

I would fundamentally say that is not the function We can't add our works to the already finished work of Christ I think the difference between us here is

58:55

Our baptism is a likeness. It's not an actual death burial and resurrection baptism is meant to represent a likeness or Signifies the true reality and so we we are justified according to the

59:10

Apostle Paul at the moment of faith Not when that faith has worked a particular action in a ceremony.

59:15

So I think that is your Assumption in trying to interpret these texts Okay, so My assumption just by reading the scripture baptism does not destroy the body of sin

59:27

Well, what is that isn't there? Do you think it's the the ceremonial working of a believer? No, I think it's a command by God Where in which we are in words

59:39

No, it's a command every command involves every command involves effort This is where we disagree because when we are commanded to repent and believe that's not by our effort in our works

59:49

That's by a heart that rest in Christ. So that's apart from works. Well, I would push back on that because Repentance does require effort.

59:57

You got a change It's a change of mind now you can bear fruit of repentance and so that repentance will work out like a repentant faith works out

01:00:07

But no, I'd say a change of mind is inward in a heart volition.

01:00:12

And so it's still require effort Now you got to change your mind now effort is a working out

01:00:20

Well, it required. Well, let's let me make this statement Jesus made a statement out of the heart is

01:00:29

You know the abundance, you know of the sins the mouth will speak right, right so then lets us know that an effort of a change of heart is required and Well, God does the effort

01:00:42

God changes the heart man cannot do that effort He's born dead in his sins and trespasses and when he changes his mind when

01:00:50

God grants repentance That's not his works that change that that repentance that has been granted to God by God That faith that has been gifted by God that will result in our effort being worked out from a heart of faith

01:01:04

Oh, I think he might have glitched out But bear with me

01:01:16

Well, but you can you can still hear me, okay We'll just roll with that hopefully we were disagreeing on repentance requiring your effort

01:01:26

I'm fundamentally saying no that that repentance is granted to you by God. It's God's effort.

01:01:32

Not your effort. Okay, so based off of what you're you're saying here is that There's No effort outside of a mental belief that we need to do know what you're saying

01:01:49

I caught what you did there No, it's not a mental belief. It's a firm trust. That's the whole definition of pistis and Hebrews 11 one that Paul was alluding to in Romans 1 17 so this is the fundamental distinction between like a five -step formula that the

01:02:06

COC teaches versus a Faith alone because a lot of times we end up going to James 2 24 and it's like no no context is

01:02:14

King here Usually my sign doesn't say I love wifey, even though I do It usually says context is

01:02:20

King, but now it's not a mental ascent It's a firm trust from a heart a repentant heart, which is not our effort

01:02:26

It's God's effort that Ezekiel 36 says that he he will do he'll take out the heart of stone and give us that repentant heart

01:02:33

Okay, so how would you interpret Romans 6? verses 6 & 7

01:02:41

Sure, so for one when when Paul is talking about baptism, he's talking about a likeness

01:02:49

And so that likeness is picturing that it's representing the reality

01:02:54

And so if I were to you know, quote Peter I was saved in baptism. Well, he's talking about It's like if I hold up a picture of my family or my son and say this is this is baby

01:03:06

JJ You would probably say oh man cute boy, you know, I'd say thank you he got it from his mama But I would say that was that's not literally

01:03:14

JJ that actually is a picture that signifies the actual person And so that is the

01:03:20

Jewish Background in Paul's mind when he's talking about baptism here being a likeness of Jesus Christ He's not talking about your working participation in and contacting the blood in water

01:03:35

And then it being washed away He is talking about being immersed into Christ by faith like he already established in Romans 4 and Romans 5

01:03:46

Okay now Two points that I want to point out then you can go ahead sister. I'm sorry

01:03:51

I do just want to point out, you know, he started this conversation on Justification in Romans 3 and 8 and it does culminate because he asked a question the final time in Romans 6 in verse number 2 and then he says this is how you justify by baptism

01:04:09

I say he asked the question again in verse 15 of chapter 6 What then are we to sin because we are no longer under law but under grace by no means

01:04:18

Yeah, but it common it culminates in 6 that's chapter 5, but it culminates in 6

01:04:23

Well, he keeps going because he continues to build a thought of how he's gonna war against the flesh in chapter 7 and then in Chapter 8 he goes back to a believers

01:04:33

Justification who therefore in Christ by faith no longer condemned then he talks about a believers sanctification that will culminate

01:04:40

I would argue in a believers glorification Okay, so this you you did follow the flow with all with regards to chapter 5

01:04:48

In regards to you know, he did mention that but again He he culminates it one final time in chapter 6 and then he says 6 and 2 and then he says

01:05:00

No, you not this is how you're justified By being baptized into Jesus Christ taking on the likeness of his death

01:05:08

This is how the body of sin is destroyed, but I did want to add as well baptism is a well baptism is a

01:05:16

Spiritual resurrection to preserve the spirit for the second coming of Jesus Christ So there's two resurrections here at play

01:05:24

Paul is talking about the spiritual resurrection in chapter 6 Then he's going to talk about the physical body resurrection in chapter 8 so he's talking about, you know

01:05:34

The justification in regards to that point, but uh, I'm sorry, you can go ahead and I'm sorry

01:05:40

If you I just I just gotta say we're just for the audience sake where we clearly differ is

01:05:45

I do not think Paul Is trying to tell us that you're working participation faith plus your works is what declares you right before God I would say what he's talking about So when

01:05:56

I think someone reads into this is you have to engage in a ceremony is they are actually conflating the map for the place or Confusing the representation for the reality and I think it goes back to something that he already spoke clearly about Is there is a distinction faith and works are not the same thing

01:06:16

They are related But we are justified like Abraham and then the principal point in verse 4 and 5 now to the one who works

01:06:24

Now when we say well not apart from the works of law I would actually say the works of law the greatest of all the works of laws love the

01:06:32

Lord your God with all of your heart soul mind and strength the Mosaic law is a republication to love

01:06:38

God Meaning that the the command to love God is assumed when you're before God Almighty And so if someone is going to be obedient in Baptism it must be out of love for God which is actually going back to Mosaic law all all works actually stem back to either a love for God or a

01:07:00

Not love for God and disobedience and love for neighbor or to hate neighbor And so all works actually go back to the bar in which we ought to obey or or not obey

01:07:11

And so that's why when we conflate law and gospel We're actually going back to the old

01:07:18

Mosaic law, which is holy righteous and good and if those Obedience to a list of commands do not save then no

01:07:27

Works of obedience to a list of commands are going to save that's why Justification has always been by faith apart from works in the ceremony of baptism

01:07:38

With John the Baptist and with the backdrop of Jews has always signified the forgiveness of sins

01:07:46

Okay, I am I'm sorry, you can go ahead. I do want to follow up on that because it sounds like you're saying that there is no law now

01:07:54

I'm going to touch on There is but we're still condemned by Okay, so we'll follow up.

01:08:01

Oh, sorry. Go ahead What's your name again? Was it? Andre Andre, thanks so much man for that engagement.

01:08:13

We'll pick up. Yes, sir I love that Okay, so yeah, because I mean that's

01:08:21

I got I got that same kind of vibe I was listening because it sounds a lot like a

01:08:29

Lot of things stood out to me when I was just listening there. Um, it sounds like okay, maybe the sinner's prayer

01:08:35

You know, that's a that's a thing The sinner's do you see this? But I'm gonna tell you

01:08:43

I'm gonna tell you it's very similar to that because I mean, here's the thing One could could argue that same thing and say hey the sinner's prayer also

01:08:53

Helps somebody to change their mind and you know on the inside they are

01:08:58

Repenting to the Lord and you know, so what's the difference here in that emotion?

01:09:05

No, I'm glad. Oh I'm glad you brought that up because I actually say someone that pushes for a sinner's prayer is the same in principle that someone that says you must be baptized to have your pastimes washed away because Especially when we go to like Romans 10 to look at this

01:09:20

Confessing with the mouth and praying before God is your effort That's something that you're having to do a lot of people get on the knees or go walk an aisle and I'm saying we can't

01:09:29

Get it confused of your Participation effort and praying a prayer that's not what aids in faith.

01:09:37

And so it's faith alone It's a changed heart that trust in Christ not plus praying a sinner's prayer, but faith alone now someone that is

01:09:45

Trusting in Christ by faith, not just knowing facts a mental ascent but trusting in Christ What will follow is praying what will follow is baptism?

01:09:55

What will follow is a desire to obey all of what Christ has commanded us

01:10:00

How do you separate the two that that's that's my that's my thought I can work, right? Okay, this faith is a heart

01:10:08

Their heart that's got this in a prayer going on right in their heart They got the faith because they believe that you know,

01:10:15

Jesus is the Christ I believe in God all that good stuff right saying saying words didn't justify them before God What justified them was a changed heart of faith in Christ and that demonstrated itself out in a prayer?

01:10:28

Just like it demonstrates itself out in baptism Okay, so so if I understand you correctly you're saying basically

01:10:36

This person who had that, you know faith in them, you know who

01:10:41

God is and and justified Okay And so, you know the sinner's prayer is like an afterthought, you know,

01:10:50

I'm saying it's just like okay. I'm a sinner Yeah, it's a demonstration of that person's faith Okay, so that's the demonstration piece

01:10:56

Yeah So if someone if someone was saying Jeremiah you have to repeat this prayer after me to order be saved

01:11:04

I would say this is no different than other people that are trying to add the ceremonial Participation of baptism.

01:11:10

I'm saying it's it's by faith Not just a mental ascent but a firm trust in Christ finished and perfect work

01:11:17

So you are biased in to ceremonial anything Ceremonies are just works.

01:11:24

They're good works that praise God if a person is already trusting in Christ alone But if it

01:11:30

Galatians 1 says that if you are to add the works of Mosaic law Which in principle all things will be judged by because the

01:11:38

Mosaic law just points back to love God and love neighbor Which is transcendental then it's to nullify the gospel all together

01:11:45

Ceremonies are good when they're understanding a believer sanctification not a believer's justification

01:11:53

Okay, because because I was gonna say like we see ceremonies all throughout. Absolutely old new

01:12:00

Yada, yada that pattern rather, you know, because a ceremony is a pattern correct

01:12:06

Because the just shall live by faith. So the just the justified by faith live out their faith in sanctifying works of Obedience those obedience to ceremonies never contributed to their justification.

01:12:20

That was my faith Okay, so so that so what is the point of the the point in that particular see we saw that in Old Testament, right?

01:12:27

we saw that they would do you know, the obedient parts and God at the end was like, uh -uh, you know, that's not doing it anymore because your heart is far from me

01:12:38

You know I'm saying and it got to the point to where in the Old Testament God said don't bring me that stuff no more because you know, because y 'all just you going through the motions and you know

01:12:49

You giving me lip service here so so so really The progression

01:12:55

I would say like if one is reading the Old Testament the old law and then you know You graduate into the

01:13:01

New Testament We see two totally different, you know

01:13:08

Everything Because I mean the ceremony salvation was different in the Old Testament to New Testament I Do yeah, okay

01:13:16

This is where we part ways because I believe Romans 4 we were justified had our sins forgiven the same way

01:13:22

Abraham was which was by faith. And so I don't think there's two different Gospels and Old and New Testament It's always been in the finished work of Jesus Christ the gospel

01:13:32

Genesis 3 15 That offspring born of a woman that would crush the serpent's head was

01:13:38

Jesus. That was the proto gospel That was the gospel in seed form. So Abraham even

01:13:45

Hebrews 11 pushes it back to Abel. I would say Adam and Eve by faith Trusted in the promise of God so they trusted in the one gospel the one plan of salvation that is always safe So this for your audience to say

01:13:57

I think it's a good point to say Church of Christ believe maybe and maybe you don't speak for all church Christ But you at least hold to two different plans of salvation as where I would look at salvation has always been found in Christ So one plan of salvation, so where was

01:14:12

Christ? You know when Adam and Eve You know were kicked out and they were

01:14:19

I think he was the Lord walking with them in the cool of the day Okay, so let me ask you this.

01:14:26

Is that not a work for them to? Have to sacrifice to push their sins forward

01:14:33

Are you talking about the just shall live by faith? So when someone is already justified by faith and then they demonstrate their faith out like in sacrifices

01:14:40

Yeah, I'd say that's just a form of sanctification um, I guess my question is more so like We know for a fact that if they would have died in that particular instance without sacrificing, you know,

01:14:53

I'm saying God was upset with them clearly. Okay, they would have been damned Because their sins would have been on them.

01:15:00

Are we are we good up until that point? No God God provided a sacrifice for them

01:15:06

He covered them with the garments of animals God was the one initiating salvation on our on their behalf now to your point is where we're gonna get close to agreeing

01:15:15

I think God would have been just if he would Condemned them and didn't say but God is the one that actually made provision on their part mercy mercy

01:15:26

Is what we would call that but but here's the point though. Hey, right. Yeah. All right. Hey, man

01:15:35

Here's the point though If they would not let's just say like, you know, because we we see what happened with their children, right?

01:15:44

clearly and you know this in this we may agree or not, but clearly at some point

01:15:52

Those children had saw you know that their their parents were Sacrificing, you know to atone for for the sins that they had committed, right?

01:16:02

Okay, and actually did actually atone for sin though No, all they could do was push it forward that law was never designed to just abolish seeing that's what that's why we need a

01:16:14

Christ right, but I digress so for these two two black children's

01:16:21

Brothers They they knew the right way to do it, okay, and Apparently it had been working for them, you know

01:16:31

Previous, you know as far as what they saw from their parents, right? So now it was their time turn, you know to do this.

01:16:37

Are you talking about Cain and Abel or just all? Okay. Yep. Yes, Woody. Okay. Uh -huh. So so so we see what happened there one, you know

01:16:46

Right one dear wrong that God was not happy but but look now look now in the heart

01:16:55

In the heart of the one that did wrong, okay You could have told him he went wrong

01:17:02

He was like because we see the fruits we see the fruits. He killed his brother

01:17:07

It's so so that indicates right there in his heart. He thought he was right So the heart is not a good judge, would you say it just just right there just at that little point right there

01:17:18

Well, and I want to be super respectful if you honestly mean you are standing on different foundations

01:17:24

We see the scripture in an entirely different light. So how we interpret the scriptures are just gonna be different I don't think you're just speaking where the

01:17:31

Bible speaks and I'm not gonna say that I'm I mean serious I'm not gonna just say well, I'm just speaking where the Bible speaks.

01:17:37

I would say though when we go back to Hebrews 11 The Hall of Faith right now

01:17:42

We know that this chapter is coming out of Hebrews 10 38 that quotes

01:17:48

Habakkuk 2 for the just Which are the justified by faith like Abraham was shall live by faith

01:17:55

So what we see with Abel in verse 4 by faith Which we know I would contend for because I know we don't agree with this necessarily

01:18:03

But he was already justified by his faith his his heart of trust in that Proto Evangelion Genesis 3 15 now he offered a more acceptable sacrifice.

01:18:13

He was living by faith He was demonstrating his faith in obedient works because that's a believer's sanctification

01:18:21

But he was justified at the moment of thing Okay, okay, but okay, so but the brother though I'm okay.

01:18:30

Yeah, so so have he didn't have faith Yeah Yeah So in your understanding he didn't have faith at all

01:18:45

So he didn't he didn't trust in the promises of God. So why even attempt? Because he would

01:18:52

Cain is a good I think first John maybe chapter 3 is actually a really good example of somebody

01:18:58

Trying to add their working participation to trusting in God's promise alone

01:19:04

So he was I would say he by adding his works. He was disobeying God He was disobeying the gospel because he wasn't trusting in the promises of God But it's the same as being disobedient, right

01:19:18

Yes to add works to faith to be justified before God is to disobey the gospel to do what you insert your will

01:19:27

Remove his will right? so when God says that we are to trust in Christ apart from our works if we say well actually

01:19:34

I think we have to Do a working participation. I would say that is asserting your will and disobeying the gospel of grace now

01:19:42

Jesus said Hmm lay it on me Jesus said that unless You are born again

01:19:53

Now that water in that spirit You can't be in the kingdom We trust him we believe him come on believe him dear

01:20:06

Jeremiah believe him From the bottom of my heart I think I am because I do want to expand the context of John chapter 3 and I have some questions maybe

01:20:16

Andre can chime in here because What I think is very paramount is to understand who

01:20:22

Nicodemus Was as Jesus was talking to him So as we back up a little bit

01:20:28

Nicodemus was a ruler of the Jews. He was top dog Can we agree on this point? He was top dog

01:20:37

And so he said something incredible rabbi We know that you are a teacher come from God for no one can do these signs

01:20:44

That you do unless God is with him. He got he got that, right? Yeah, Jesus answered him with what you were quoting truly truly.

01:20:51

I say to you unless One is born again. Now. This is what I would say unless you're born again

01:20:58

You can't even see the kingdom of God. You can't understand it. You're you're you're spiritually depraved

01:21:04

It makes no sense. You hate the things of God You have to be regenerate or born again in order to even see why you need salvation

01:21:12

So I was interpreting that a little bit, but I want to keep pushing Nicodemus said to him how can a man be born when he is old?

01:21:19

Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born Jesus? This is where we're gonna differ.

01:21:25

I think he's repeating the same thing He just said and he uses just slightly different words, but it's the same principle.

01:21:31

Truly truth I said to you unless one is born of water and he qualifies what kind of water he's talking about in the spirit

01:21:39

He cannot enter the kingdom of God. Now. Why do I say he's not talking about two totally separate things?

01:21:45

Well, he'd be born of water and spirits talking about a spiritual cleansing He repeats this again in verse 6 that which is born of flesh is flesh and that which is born of spirit is spirit

01:21:55

Now we we might agree on this point Nicodemus Scratching his head like what is he talking about?

01:22:02

And Jesus says don't marvel that I said to you must be born again The wind blows where it wishes you can hear it sound but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes

01:22:13

So it is with everyone who is born of the spirit I would I would submit this is why

01:22:19

I believe I'm trusting in the words of Christ The spirit cannot be contained and manipulated like man

01:22:25

You can see the effects of the spirit like the wind but we can't control the weather I would say we can't control the spirit and the and the waters of baptism

01:22:34

He goes on to say verse 9 How can these things be Nicodemus does not understand and he is top dog

01:22:42

Jesus answered him. Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things?

01:22:49

So Jesus is holding Nicodemus accountable for something that he should already know

01:22:55

And I believe what Jesus is talking about is the promise of the new covenant that comes

01:23:02

We go all the way back to Ezekiel 36 where God says now it checks out to be born again means to be literally born

01:23:09

From above Ezekiel 36. God is saying I Will take out that heart of stone.

01:23:15

I will give you a new heart. I Will cleanse you with my spirit

01:23:22

Jesus is pointing Nicodemus to what he should have already understood that God must do a

01:23:28

Miraculous work on your heart all in Titus 3 5 another verse that we would disagree on the

01:23:33

Holy Spirit Must regenerate you this is a baptism of the Spirit a baptism made without hands

01:23:40

I would allude to Colossians 2 12 not our participation in a ceremony

01:23:46

So I think Nicodemus is thinking earthly He might even be thinking about John's baptism, even though he was from God, but he was doing a earthly baptism

01:23:56

Jesus is trying to get him to think transcendent to the things of God and how God regenerates the heart

01:24:03

God Person You want to interject here just to make sure that I'm getting a proper understanding of what you're saying here

01:24:12

You stated in John 3 5 Accept a man be born of water and the spirit you're saying both of those both of those terms are spirit

01:24:23

Well, he is echoing Ezekiel 36 he's talking about spiritual cleansing

01:24:28

That's what he means by water in the spirit. So water in the spirit By what you're saying could be interpreted as spirit in the spirit

01:24:37

Well, it's interesting you say that because he does actually go on to say that which is born of spirit is spirit

01:24:42

But yeah, he's repeating the same truths here He's talking about a spiritual cleansing not an actual ceremony that you can step into by your working participation

01:24:52

Okay, and so this is where we jump back to Roman 6 because you did agree that Butter oh, yeah.

01:25:01

Yeah, I'm gonna stay on that topic. I'm gonna back to Romans 5 and Romans 4

01:25:08

But we'll go around the circuit there, won't we? Oh, yeah, that's all part of it culmination is in Romans 6 beginning in Romans 3 but Continues past Romans 6 he builds on he doesn't just stop there okay, well we'll get back to that but I I Did want to you know make mention here

01:25:30

You know Context as we're looking at this, you know context really is important as we're discussing water and the spirit

01:25:37

Because you know There's got to be something in the context that would let us know that this water is referring to spirit when we look at just Drop down to verse number 23, there's no transition with this word here water.

01:25:56

It's The concept that context shifts to John's baptism

01:26:03

So Jesus is talking with Nicodemus and then the context shifts to John's baptism and then they get a dispute

01:26:10

I would actually say when you keep reading the verse 25, there's a dispute with John's disciples and a

01:26:15

Jew over Purification so I love this Because purification rites go all the way back to the

01:26:24

Old Testament so John's baptism was actually pricking the heart of the

01:26:30

Jews because they thought they were good because they were physical sons of Abraham and John saying that's that's not gonna cut it your self -righteousness

01:26:40

You're adding your works to of the Mosaic law to what all of what God has called us

01:26:45

That's not gonna make you safe. And so I would actually say the context shifts That's why we got to let

01:26:51

Jesus Qualify what he means by water and he says in the spirit that which is born of spirit is spirit

01:26:58

We must be born again from above That's the context of which Jesus talked about with Nicodemus when you're jumping to that water baptism

01:27:06

Well, he's he's talking about John the Baptist and I would actually say Nicodemus might be thinking about that over there and Jesus trying to say no.

01:27:13

No, we're talking about something that's of this world This is what you know, we are, you know

01:27:19

Separate with regards to this here because When we we look at you know born of water in the spirit and you brought up verse number six

01:27:28

This is telling you this is telling us how we are born of the spirit

01:27:33

How we have that spiritual resurrection being born of the water and the spirit with regards to this word water here

01:27:40

There's got to be since it's being used first here in verse number five

01:27:45

There's got to be something that transitions that lets us know that the water is being used

01:27:52

Differently from this verse here and in verse 23 Because the same word that is used here in verse 5

01:27:59

The word who door is the exact same word that is used in verse 23 who door and there's no

01:28:05

Transition letting us know that this word water here is being Transitioned to mean something else or to apply to something else

01:28:14

So with regards to that context it lets us know that it is water baptism that is being talked about here

01:28:21

Yeah, we differ because I would just simply say it's a different context talking with Nicodemus and then he's talking

01:28:26

John's disciples are talking with a Jew But my question to you is What do you think

01:28:31

Jesus means in verse 10 when he says are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things

01:28:39

Well, this is a part of the the prophecies of the Old Testament of which the what?

01:28:47

Well, it's a I can't think of any off the top of my head here I guess he killed 36 where God says

01:28:52

I will cleanse you with my spirit. I think that might be a good one I have to I have to get back with you

01:29:01

Check that out because you might actually see the the strong continuity that Jesus is holding Nicodemus accountable to I got another question for you

01:29:08

Would you say that we can control the wind as humans? No, no, but again

01:29:17

My follow -up question is if if if we received the Holy Spirit and the watery graves of baptism

01:29:24

Can we not control the spirit if we can control the baptism? I'm Not sure what you're trying to imply with that I'm trying to imply is you can't control the spirit and those that that Say that you receive the gift of the

01:29:40

Holy Spirit at the moment of engaging in a working ceremony Is to actually undo what

01:29:45

Jesus is trying to teach us here. He's telling Nicodemus. Don't marvel at this You cannot contain and manipulate the

01:29:52

Holy Spirit. It has to be done to you You don't get to control it well

01:29:58

No that would actually go against a simple command of being baptized for the remission of his sins because we

01:30:05

Interpret that verse differently because I think your interpretation contradicts Jesus here with Nicodemus Well, you know, we talk about the simplicity of the gospel as talked about in 1st

01:30:15

Corinthians 10 there, you know It's not Believe not to be baptized, right?

01:30:21

It's not difficult to understand. Oh, you know, but I think the gospel is so simple that we can just trust in Christ alone

01:30:28

I think it's everyone else that tries to add additional working commands well, and again, the command is to believe and be baptized, but Justified and command to live a sanctified life.

01:30:41

So they're two different commands. No No, the justification as we talked about earlier began in Romans 3 8 and culminates with baptism

01:30:49

It shows you it keeps going into Romans 8 you can't stop at Romans 6

01:30:56

When we talk about Romans and justification here what we're talking about the

01:31:05

Beginning of it is that they were reporting in Romans 3 and 8 let us do evil that good may come

01:31:11

That's what that was the slanderous report So with Romans 3 9 he begins to discuss justification

01:31:17

Now he asked a question again in Romans 6 to shall we send that grace may abound?

01:31:24

No, don't you know that you're justified when you're baptized into Jesus Christ. So this is how we know justification

01:31:33

This is how we know that justification takes place with baptism. Now.

01:31:39

He also goes on As we talk about Justification is sanctification as you did mention he goes on and he talks about after Justification we we skip over Romans 7 we can touch on that a little bit but I want to go to Romans 8 as well as You know, we talked about the the law of the

01:32:01

Spirit in Christ Jesus now This is where sanctification comes into play as well.

01:32:07

You're justified Once you are baptized into Christ that is when the body of sin is destroyed

01:32:14

And that's that's very clear in Romans 6 the body of sin is destroyed by baptism

01:32:19

Which is you know, you're made in the likeness of the death of Jesus Christ That's when the body of sin is destroyed and we look at that just as a side note

01:32:28

It's no different than what Peter preached on the day of Pentecost repent and be baptized for the remission of your sins and you'll receive the gift of the

01:32:34

Holy Spirit, but Sticking with Romans here. The body of sin is destroyed upon baptism

01:32:42

Sanctification that's justification Sanctification is now that we're justified through baptism.

01:32:49

We walk in the Spirit That's the law of the Spirit in Christ Jesus and he gives those principles in Romans 8

01:32:56

Verses 1 through 6 there and then he lets us know in verse number 10. The body is dead yet.

01:33:02

The spirit is alive How's the spirit alive? Because of baptism, but the question that I do want to ask you because you you did agree that baptism

01:33:15

Is a preservation of the Spirit for the second coming of Jesus Christ. Is that correct? You did agree to that?

01:33:21

That's that last part again You did agree earlier that baptism is the preservation of the

01:33:27

Spirit. Is that correct? No, I think I agreed that there is a baptism of the

01:33:33

Holy Spirit and what I was saying is that regenerates us That's that good work that he began in you that he will see to completion at the day of Jesus Christ Philippians 1 6 okay, so but this is what's being taught here and Excuse me with regards to the preservation, excuse me the preservation of The the spirit the soul and the body first Thessalonians 5 23

01:34:03

Paul makes the statement to the Thessalonians May your whole body soul and spirit be preserved at the second coming of Jesus Christ Here is how he tells us how that preservation takes place again justification as it tells us in Romans 6 is

01:34:22

In baptism because that's when the body of death is destroyed and you're free from sin

01:34:27

Which would be past sin because once you're baptized you're to walk in newness of life Which is the law of the law of life in Jesus Christ?

01:34:37

so then once you're Justified and you have that new life you follow the principles of the law which would be sanctification

01:34:45

So you have justification in Romans 6 Sanctification in Romans 8 and this is how the

01:34:52

Body soul and spirit is preserved for the second coming of Jesus Christ Romans They will clearly, you know go on from that point to let us know, you know that you know

01:35:03

We're awaiting for the adoption of the bodies Romans 8 23 I believe it is all of that takes place with the justification in Romans 6

01:35:11

Excuse me and the sanctification in Romans 8 But this is

01:35:18

Romans 6 differently, so we're gonna have different conclusions when we get into Romans 8.

01:35:26

Okay I'm sorry, CJ. Did you want to say something? What's up CJ Do you know who

01:35:36

I am? Oh, yeah Oh, yeah Hey, we've talked on the phone before by the way,

01:35:48

I love all those books you got behind you man You've been laboring in your study No, I am

01:35:56

I am a diligent Studier right here. Let me just pull one off.

01:36:02

Oh wait Okay But yeah,

01:36:09

I'm not that smart so before you were talking about John 3 and your argument is that That what is the water and the other fluid

01:36:28

No I would say it's the work of the Holy Spirit as Ezekiel 36 tells us.

01:36:35

So what is spirit It's yeah, it's

01:36:41

Jesus way of communicating that that same truth three different times. You must be born again

01:36:46

You must be born of water in the spirit that which is born of spirit is spirit He's saying the same thing three different times, which is kind of what?

01:36:54

Kind of Hebrew poetry just repeat that's one way to to draw emphasis and Nicodemus confused scratching his head probably thinking about a ceremonial baptism like John's baptism

01:37:07

But Jesus saying don't marvel at this truth. It's it's it's really a baptism without hands because it's the powerful working of God No, you

01:37:19

So you would feel like a poetic text like like a song like No, I just said it was similar to that a little bit because Jesus is a

01:37:38

Jew and so he's gonna be you know He wrote the whole Old Testament, so I'm just saying you would find similarities there

01:37:45

But no, it's it's a gospel account. So it's it's descriptive. It can contain

01:37:51

Poetic flares, but in total no Jesus is just trying to emphasize the three -point that this is a spiritual cleansing that God does

01:38:00

So We all talked about the context. Oh Yeah, I beat you to it

01:38:08

CJ John 33 you must be born again

01:38:14

John 3 5 you must be born of the water in the spirit

01:38:20

John 3 16 probably should Should not perish

01:38:28

John 3 22 and 23 they stayed in baptized because there was much

01:38:37

Jesus there. No, it's his water and then John 3 36 the ones that Belief of life of the ones that don't obey

01:38:52

Yeah Obey It's two different words in the

01:39:00

Greek I mean but believe is fine You have a question for me

01:39:07

CJ Well with the evidence

01:39:15

In John 3 22 23 in the context

01:39:22

Well, what do you do with the context being water baptism? That did you remember did were you were you listening to my answer to Andre when he asked me the same thing?

01:39:34

I Did not Okay, I'll do it brief I would say two different contexts

01:39:39

Jesus talking to Nicodemus and one where he's talking about being born from above and then later on as we're getting into there's an exchange between John's disciples and a

01:39:50

Jew over Purification, but it's relating to John's water baptism. And so this immediately says, okay

01:39:57

Why were they talking about? purification rights because the Old Testament is littered with people being bathed in water to Signify the forgiveness of sins and so John's baptism challenged the

01:40:12

Jews of that time because they thought they Already had their sins forgiven because number one they thought they were physical sons of Abraham So they were good and they were also trying to add their works their obedience to the works the

01:40:25

Mosaic law to earn a favor with God in John's whole baptism of repentance is saying y 'all are just as unclean as The Gentiles and you need to repent which has always been fundamental to having your sins forgiven so I would challenge the assumption that the

01:40:46

Jews' problem was obedience Well, we're we're also also the prophets

01:40:55

Like in Micah chapter 6 when he condemns them for making me off Condemns them

01:41:07

He doesn't condemn the offering he condemns the heart

01:41:13

He doesn't condemn the obedience It's not like they were being

01:41:19

Self -righteous All throughout the prophets it was their attitude not the actions themselves

01:41:29

Yeah, we we differ fundamentally there because I would say the Sermon on the Mount Jesus acknowledges that the

01:41:36

Pharisees the those of the second temple Jews. They were externally obedient but their heart was far from worshiping

01:41:46

Yahweh and Therefore if you're disobedient from the heart, even though you're functionally doing external actions of obedience

01:41:53

It's all sin before God and therefore is is all for naught

01:41:59

So I would say even though they're functionally doing external obedience It's entirely disobedient because it's coming from a not a heart for love and honor to God But this just me and you are always gonna disagree on some of the nuance because we have fundamental different understandings of the gospel we have fundamental

01:42:19

Disagreements about who God is and who man is and so probably any verse we go to We're always now we should contend for context.

01:42:28

But yeah, we're gonna see it from totally different worldviews Yeah Right Yeah, cuz it no, that's a good question so if you only do external obedience

01:43:18

Then you've fallen short of the glory of God because God is always going back to to Micah You know verse you quoted that God has always wanted desired mercy.

01:43:27

He's always wanted us to love God something That is not just a suggestion But it's law and all man falls short of loving

01:43:36

God Perfectly from the heart and the Pharisees were really good at being obedient Externally, but their heart was far from God.

01:43:46

That's why Jesus refers to them as self -righteous They didn't have a heart of righteousness

01:43:55

So would you say that then the Bible paints the picture that both of the choir

01:44:05

Obedience and the heart in this way and this way only the just shall live.

01:44:13

Okay Justification is by faith apart from works So a heart of love a heart of repentance a heart that God sees the moment that it's changed in Christ's finished work

01:44:24

This is the gospel of grace But the just shall live by faith so we cannot conflate justification and sanctification

01:44:32

But if a person does look to Jesus in faith That faith is never alone and always is a faith

01:44:40

Working love always a faith that produces good works Challenge the

01:44:51

Justification sanctification to the categories, I mean in first coming six

01:45:01

Well, it's 11, right? Yes, it's 11 Well, Paul Paul uses them in a big slow

01:45:11

You've been washed you've been justified you've been sanctified Those in the name of Jesus Christ in the in the spirit right the full verse

01:45:26

See we're just gonna under I would challenge you you're bringing your presuppositions into what

01:45:31

Paul is talking about there He does list those things, but I would say because he lists them

01:45:37

They're not talking about the same thing and it's definitely not talking about in one swift working ceremony of your participation well, well

01:45:46

If you're talking about Baptism. Well, that's that's not my work

01:45:53

You don't have any effort CJ in your baptism Baptism is not being put under the water.

01:46:03

It's what's in the water Hmm, which is the

01:46:09

Holy Spirit The Holy Spirit Yeah, literally

01:46:20

I Believe Yes Ontologically Please break that word down for me.

01:46:33

Honestly CJ. I appreciate you chiming in man I've watched some of your talks with help me.

01:46:39

What's his name? Yes, so I watched a little bit of you I think y 'all do a good respectful job interacting with with each other

01:46:47

But I do have to sign off before too long. So if y 'all want to ask me any more questions

01:46:53

Yes, I do have I do have a couple more questions that I do want to ask going back to Romans 6

01:47:25

Romans 6 Romans 6 Just going back to that yes versus Yes, so I wanted to ask

01:47:41

With regards to this verse it says knowing this that our old man is crucified with him that I believe in sin might be destroyed that henceforth.

01:47:54

We should not serve sin Okay, now, you know we understand that this is you know in context talking about the baptism and what baptism does

01:48:02

But I would already challenge that assumption. Okay. Yeah, that's that's what

01:48:07

I wanted to actually I wanted to ask you if that's not the case.

01:48:13

When is the old man crucified with that thing? Okay, and the next thing that I wanted to ask is

01:48:24

Hebrews chapter 5 and verse number 9 Obey, obey.

01:48:29

I already know it. Go ahead. So yeah, so just your your Your view on that what does what is that a great question?

01:48:39

Now it'll be everything I've been talking about is we're justified by faith apart from works and a believer obeys in Sanctifying works of obedience and so I think that's the big apologetic in Hebrews as an apologetic to the

01:48:56

Jews that are starting to revert back to the Old Covenant a covenant of works and a covenant of death and the writer of Hebrews is imploring them to obey what those things have always pointed to which is the promise of the

01:49:10

New Covenant a Mediator that saves to the uttermost and cannot fail in order to obey

01:49:17

Put your faith in him so I didn't turn there yet So I'll read it and see if I missed anything that I want to add to that.

01:49:24

What was it? Five? Nine and verse nine. Yes Yep, and being made perfect.

01:49:30

He became the source of eternal life to all who obey him I always try to point out what the word obey

01:49:38

It doesn't always until you're working participation With Jesus and John 14 says believe in God believe also in me these commands to believe to have faith to repent

01:49:48

I would say we can obey in faith and that doesn't require our working participation.

01:49:54

We can obey from the heart It's not our work. It's it's a work of God It's a gracious gift from above that he grants repentance, but I do think in the flow of kind of Hebrews He can speak to the sanctified life for all those that do obey the command all the commands that he's commanded us to From the

01:50:12

Great Commission. He's speaking to the the sanctified life for all of those who obey They are going to experience the full range of salvation meaning.

01:50:21

I believe we're safe I believe true born -again believers. We are saved in the past at the moment of faith justified

01:50:29

We are being saved in sanctification being set apart being made holy less like the world and more into the image of Christ and then we will be saved future tense

01:50:38

When we are glorified and resurrected bodies with our Lord face -to -face for all eternity

01:50:43

So yeah that term obey I do think is in terms of our working obedience, but it's in the believers

01:50:50

Sanctification because in a few chapters the justified the just the righteous by faith

01:50:57

Live out that faith with a demonstrated life of works to the glory of God.

01:51:02

Okay, so your view is Baptism is a sanctified work. Is that correct?

01:51:08

So and even within your view that is needed for salvation, correct?

01:51:14

Well, it it it will happen someone that's been regenerated from the heart

01:51:20

Well, cuz this is where I would say the thief on the cross If he would have continued to live he would have been baptized.

01:51:27

So our works in sanctification So that's gonna look different in the lives of believers depending on how we live and we're at different levels of sanctification

01:51:39

So I'm just saying the believer of sanctification Will happen to some degree meaning that that internal faith will be worked out to some degree

01:51:47

That's that's why I believe if a person desires to be baptized after they put their faith in Christ Lord willing that will happen

01:51:55

But if they were, you know got into a tragic accident before they could was already justified by faith

01:52:01

They were desiring to obey all of what God has commanded us but it their

01:52:09

Justification was never dependent on their external works of obedience to begin with Jesus did all that perfectly

01:52:17

Okay, my last question Can you find can you find

01:52:23

Can you give me a verse within Scriptures that says that baptism is optional or that baptism is you know

01:52:34

Can be given if you're desirous of it. Is there any verse that you can give that would

01:52:40

Are you saying I have to give you one verse that says that Well scripture, you know, yeah, we wouldn't need scripture to confirm.

01:52:50

Yeah. Yeah Okay, I just I was just seeing what the rules were to your question here If if you and others are interested more like I had a debate with Mike.

01:53:00

I saw probably about a month or so ago and In my opening statement.

01:53:06

I said you have to understand six key terms And when you're talking about justification in relation to baptism, and I would say we need to understand faith and works

01:53:18

How they relate and how they are different faith is internal. It's pistis It's firm trust now context is king because even the demons move, right?

01:53:26

And that's a mere sense facts, but they're not trusting from the heart, but a Hebrews 11 1 just talks about Assurance firm trust and he goes on to talk about that which is pleasing to God that are drawing near to him

01:53:38

But it's from the heart. It's not in their their works and seeking him by pulling themselves up by their bootstraps

01:53:45

Point is faith and works are related, but they are distinct and if we ever have a understanding of faith that includes our works then you can't understand in my opinion

01:53:55

Romans for James to what Jesus talks about in the Sermon the mount and so forth, but I would say by definition

01:54:03

We are participating in baptism We are working in some fashion if we are if it's an act of faith

01:54:10

And so I always want to maintain a law gospel Distinction we are not made right before God by our working participation in obedience to a set of commands

01:54:21

It's my faith in the one who accomplished salvation perfectly To tell us that it is finished all of Jesus's works his righteousness accomplished salvation

01:54:32

Then I think it's imperative that we understand the term Justification this is forensic

01:54:38

Romans 4 says it's vertical before God And this is at the moment of faith

01:54:44

Romans 5 1 and The moment of faith all of your sin gets for forgive

01:54:51

I wouldn't assume just past sin because God sees all of your days even the ones that you haven't lived

01:54:56

He is omniscient. And so since Jesus's righteousness is perfect. It covers the entirety of your life now

01:55:03

It's not just something and I would actually go back you appreciate this point Andre I would go back to Romans 6 to say well, if I've been forgiven, can

01:55:11

I just go on sinning? So grace my belt. No, I saved you out of that. You have a changed heart by no means am

01:55:17

I gonna go back to the old man that I was saved from and all my sin and so justification is vertical and forensic and Romans 8 begins by saying no condemnation to your account and that's by faith

01:55:30

Apart from your works, even if we try to qualify it not by works of law well, that's the best working participation because it's holy righteous and good and that ain't getting you in and then

01:55:41

I would say once we have understand justification then Sanctification means to be set apart It's living a holy life not gritting your teeth trying really really hard to obey obey obey or I'm gonna lose it

01:55:53

No, Jesus paid for all that you're seeking to obey in your works to glorify

01:55:59

God with your whole life It's beautiful because you have peace with God. And so once we understand faith works

01:56:07

Justification sanctification then we need to understand the word baptized baptism when we look at the the definition

01:56:14

This is a ceremonial right immersed in water that Signifies the forgiveness of sins meaning it pictures this has a beautiful backdrop in the

01:56:24

Old Testament We're being bathed in water Levitical priest that never forgave sin, but they were

01:56:30

Ceremonial so I don't I don't mean to cut you off I know your time is short, but I was just asking for a verse that would show

01:56:37

Baptism is being optional For justification. I would I would point back to Romans 5 1 that faith is alone in that verse.

01:56:47

No Can you show me a verse that show that says baptism is optional or only if you desire

01:56:56

Can you show me a statement desire for what? For if you want to or for salvation or for sanctification when you say salvation

01:57:03

Do you mean justification sanctification or glorification or all three? Well use your terms all three.

01:57:09

Can you show me? Can you show me a verse where baptism is necessary for our believers justification?

01:57:15

I can't show you that verse Okay, I show you for faith though Okay, so can you show me?

01:57:22

Sorry One second CJ, what were you saying Andrew or Andre? Sorry. Yes.

01:57:28

I was just saying just any verse that would show that baptism is

01:57:36

Optional or desires if it's designed for what for sanctification justification?

01:57:44

Right. I can't show you a verse for justification because it's my faith and baptism Are not the same thing.

01:57:51

How about sanctification? Well, we understand the doctrine of sanctification has talked about in 1st

01:57:57

Thessalonians 4 Doesn't use the word sanctification, but it's implied in Romans 8 2nd

01:58:03

Corinthians chapter 3 but we're being set apart one degree of glory to the next conforming to the image of Christ by Obeying commands that Christ has given us in our works

01:58:15

Like baptism like going to church like doing all the one another's and scriptures that is a believer sanctification

01:58:22

And it's not that we desire That but our heart is changed.

01:58:27

So We do desire to obey all of what Christ has commanded us But that's in the believer sanctification because the scripture is so clear that our justification is by faith apart from works

01:58:39

Okay. All right. No further questions for me Otario CJ did you have any

01:58:45

Andre Roman 6 -7, man? For you one more time

01:58:52

Bear with me one moment. Let me get there 6 and verse 7 for he that is dead is free from sin

01:59:02

But I'm in I'm in knowing this crucified with them

01:59:07

Might be destroyed which is the witness there for on what that means I Appreciate the conversation

01:59:27

Being immersed in Christ which is by faith and then that's what baptism signifies

01:59:33

It's a likeness unto his death. That's what Paul is talking about CJ you know me bring my theology to the table man.

01:59:46

Is that what you're saying? It's not a likeness got it

01:59:57

Oh, it is in the text I see what you're trying to do over there. Well likeness

02:00:03

Is the actual thing identical, right? We're with him in baptism literally

02:00:09

Roman 6 -4 with him in baptism for words and They I like you.

02:00:18

So I'm not I'm not gonna pick this apart man But if you want to ask me a question you can can you be saved without being with Jesus?

02:00:29

Repeat that please. I'm sorry. Can you be saved without being with Jesus? You cannot be justified apart from faith in Jesus Christ I think

02:00:51

I think I know what you're trying to get me with the whole church of Christ But you have to be justified by faith apart from your works in the finished work of Jesus Christ The second person the

02:01:02

Godhead who took on flesh lived among us perfects in this life Was buried died resurrected and ascended on high and is sitting at the right hand of the father

02:01:10

That's the biblical Jesus that you have to trust with all of your heart not also trusting in your own work working

02:01:17

Participation in order to be saved It's not your effort

02:01:25

That's not your effort It's not an act of faith CJ can't take that work from God Is is it an act of faith of the believer?

02:01:39

Okay, if it's an act of faith it's a work of faith it's a faith working out Right the just shall live by faith, that's why

02:01:49

I would say you're not justified by your baptism You are you are obeying in sanctification in your baptism that signifies the forgiveness of sin, that's all words

02:02:04

We agree to disagree man, we can do that and charity can't we

02:02:23

I Don't mean in terms of being saved.

02:02:34

I'm just talking about human to human That's okay

02:02:42

CJ Oh Or CJ or if y 'all got a couple more questions.

02:02:47

I got a little bit more time. Oh Well, I mean if that's the case, I did have one question that I've come on.

02:02:53

Oh All right So, you know we was talking about this heart concept and all of that good stuff.

02:03:01

Okay, so I understand You know, there are scriptures that talk about you know, how the heart can be corrupt, etc, etc

02:03:09

Entertain me so if this is actually an education so remember you were saying that The Spirit of God, you know, he gives you a new heart this than the third now

02:03:21

What if that's actually just an education? There's nothing supernatural, you know per se about that spirit of God That's just the education of God Could that be

02:03:33

I? Wouldn't see that anywhere in the context. I would see when God works in supernatural

02:03:40

Okay And to a certain extent, you know there there of course there is going to be always in a working supernaturally behind the scenes but I mean as far as Yes, but as far as Him taking like and giving you a new heart or what if the case may be what does this do?

02:03:59

You know to the to the to the to the human like is this something well

02:04:05

You know, what is that exactly? Yeah, so the promise of the new covenant where God says

02:04:12

I will take out the heart of stone and give you a heart of When I will cleanse you with my spirit and cause you to obey all of my commands

02:04:20

This is God's promise in the new covenant When his spirit regenerates your hearts and indwells you check this out

02:04:28

We're all gonna disagree y 'all are gonna disagree with me, but the Spirit of God will never leave you He is with you and low even to the end of the age

02:04:36

That's the promise of the new covenant that the Holy Spirit indwells true saints

02:04:42

In a true sight lose it Someone who is truly regenerated would never dream of walking away from the faith

02:04:53

We can get into Hebrews 6 Hebrews 10. These are talking about covenant breakers that attach themselves merely said

02:05:01

These were the Jews that were reverting back to the Old Covenant because someone who has a changed heart

02:05:06

They Cannot do heart surge on themselves to give them themselves back a heart of stone

02:05:12

Who the Sun sets free is free indeed Do you think

02:05:18

Ananias and Sapphira tricked the Lord? The one who knows all things is that we're asking

02:05:27

Because I mean about it Yeah, they you know, they were

02:05:34

They were called brothers and sisters Right. I call a lot of people at my church

02:05:40

Brothers and sisters, but I can't see the heart and I don't claim to infallibly call them brothers and sisters

02:05:47

It's just based on the fruit So but when we're talking about someone who's regenerate we're saying from God's perspective

02:05:53

He knows their heart has changed and I'm saying from that perspective That person will always respond to the commands of Scripture or the warnings of Scripture in a positive way

02:06:03

It doesn't mean that they won't sin But if they have the Spirit indwelling them then they're gonna be compelled to confess and they're gonna be compelled to live a sanctified life

02:06:12

This person it's literally impossible to be unborn Yeah, I agree

02:06:17

I mean, but you can be separates it because remember what the scripture said about it's like the one that goes

02:06:25

The dog that eats his vomit the the pig that was clean he goes back and gets dirty, you know, you

02:06:32

Hangle back into you know, those affairs apparently from God's perspective, right?

02:06:38

No, we would differ. I think are you quoting from 2nd Peter 1 or 2? Yeah, we would we would differ on the nature of false teachers in that text because I don't believe man

02:06:47

Fundamentally can change his own nature Okay So so he could but he can't he change his obedience like because he has free will right

02:07:00

Well, I'm reformed Baptist. So I agree that man has free will but it's different than libertarian free will

02:07:07

I don't know if you're familiar with the philosophy of what that means But I believe man makes his plans according to his heart

02:07:13

But God ordains and determines his step as the Proverbs tell us so God makes choices that are eternal and man makes choices that are tempering

02:07:21

But what man means for evil God can mean for good and so yes, we choose according to our hearts desire

02:07:28

But if that heart desire has changed then we desire to glorify God and we're still Romans 7 warring against our flesh

02:07:40

Both of us man and God How so Because God can make an eternal choice and man can make a temporal choice

02:07:49

I would encourage you CJ go listen to my debate against a K Richardson where we get in We get into the philosophy of libertarian free will versus compatibilism compatibilistic free will

02:08:04

You loved it you hit the like button on that didn't you Aka is a gentleman.

02:08:13

I appreciate Say things like that.

02:08:21

I'm just kidding Could you connect that to closins to Yeah Colossians to I we would fundamentally differ on what it means the circumcision of Christ that's made without hands

02:08:41

I would say all of what that's talking about is Regeneration the word doesn't have to be in that Passage for that to mean that as long as we understand that regeneration is to be reborn the new birth

02:08:53

That's what Paul is talking about. And so I don't think it's talking about a baptism made with human hands, but it's being

02:09:00

Baptized moss. This is a Spiritual washing from above so this gets right back into John 3 is equal 36

02:09:08

I mean, it's a work of God God says I will do all these things If Sorry Three passages

02:09:27

Were water baptism and it could be proven Would they all be connected because they're all talking about the same thing

02:09:38

No, I'm not saying they are But for the sake of argument are they all

02:09:45

Malik Did did you watch my debate with Mike I saw

02:09:54

Did you hit the like button I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding.

02:09:59

I just this I just the same point in my opening speech I could grant that all the baptism verses even

02:10:06

Romans 6 over there Andre Even if all of these were Dogmatically talking about the ceremonial right dipped in water

02:10:14

I would say that still wouldn't negate the overall understanding that it signifies the forgiveness of sin

02:10:21

So like first Peter 321, I believe it's very possible That Peter saying that baptism saves you

02:10:28

He is talking about the reality that baptism signifies because that's what the word literally means and that's the backdrop as we look at all of the

02:10:38

Levitical priests being bathed in water never truly forgiving sin, but it was ceremonially going from unclean to clean

02:10:47

Did I answer your question? No I guess

02:10:58

This way is John 3 Colossians 2 and Ezekiel 3 6 all

02:11:07

Connected no matter what what since you take those passages connected somehow

02:11:18

Honest, I mean this isn't a work around your question I think all of these passages even tons that we haven't even brought up that don't mention baptism.

02:11:27

They're all related But what's underneath is how we understand faith and works

02:11:32

What's underneath all these passages how we understand the relationship between justification and sanctification

02:11:38

But to answer very clearly, yes, I think they're related John 3

02:11:43

Colossians 2 Ezekiel 36 I even would say there's a strong relationship between baptism of the

02:11:50

Spirit and the ceremonial Work that believers participate in because I believe the

02:11:56

Holy Spirit indwells the saint so they're all related But the debate lies to what degree yeah

02:12:04

I just try to let the

02:12:10

Bible speak or the Bible speaks me That what

02:12:18

Oh You know, he's got a song about that big big big brother

02:12:27

Bible speaks it's my ringtone I Just wanted to get that across So you say?

02:12:45

They're all connected, but we would disagree with in what fashion

02:12:52

Say dad, I just want you know, I love you, man Love you, too Hey You never know what the future holds man

02:13:22

Maybe you'll do some reviews of my content in the near future Jeremiah, yeah,

02:13:29

I'm sorry. Um, we we do We have a question that came in.

02:13:35

Okay, if you want my answer, I'll put it up here It's gonna show on the

02:13:41

Facebook at a soul's page. But the question is to you Jeremiah Jeremiah my question to you if you say baptism is part of the works of sanctification then how times are going to Not sure if I understand that correctly how times are going to baptize

02:14:01

You said that baptism is just like going to church. We go to church at least once a week.

02:14:07

How many times? You do your bet. Do you do your baptism Ephesians 4 for it says there is one baptism.

02:14:16

My understanding is Sanctification is an ongoing process to live a holy life

02:14:22

Yeah, I think it's Ephesians 4 5 so not all commands and sanctification are the same and what's beautiful about the ceremonial rite of Christian baptism is

02:14:34

It's a one -time ceremony. And I think when we look in the Old Covenant They were constantly having to get washed over and over they made sacrifices over and over because All of those ceremonies all of those sacrifices never could forgive sin

02:14:52

It was pointing to the one to come who is the type and shadow of those ceremonies those sacrifices and what's beautiful about the one -time baptism of a regenerated believer in Christ and Christ alone in faith apart from works is

02:15:09

They're declaring to the world their faith made public and it's in a context of the

02:15:15

Ecclesia And actually I have to we see the baptisms being done in the church and so my point is

02:15:21

Not all commands to the Christian are the same They are like one another in the sense that they are in the believers sanctification

02:15:30

This obedience to these commands do not contribute to a person's justification

02:15:37

All right. Thank you for that question Lindsay and thank you for your response Jeremiah All right

02:15:47

Say again, will you come back and talk with us some more? You know what?

02:15:52

I like all of y 'all. I like CJ I Do I do

02:15:58

I love you CJ And all the things we're talking about are important. So I would like to do things with you on the future

02:16:05

Maybe you can have me and Leanne Ferguson on together and then we can do something like that Oh, I would love it and she's watching.

02:16:13

So Leanne shout out to you girl We will Have both of y 'all here.

02:16:20

I'm sure she'd be down with it. So I won't make too big a deal of this but just tell me if y 'all don't want me to say this but She she wrote a book and it's just I'll just say the first part

02:16:32

Christ rescued me and if you go to the apologetic dog YouTube channel

02:16:37

I interviewed her on the book and so I'm just saying in terms of education People might be interested in something like that.

02:16:44

It was incredible time just getting to talk with her and if they liked Y 'all having her on a while back then they might like hearing that interview that I had with her.

02:16:53

Yeah Yeah, that's how I found you guys You know seeing that miss Leanne was a former church of Christ Sister, she's still our sister

02:17:05

And when we met her it was really Awesome, we love talking to her.

02:17:11

She is a brave lady Kudos to her, you know for her works and things of that nature

02:17:17

I pray, you know that she'll continue to keep talking with us. I prayed Jeremiah that you would do the same

02:17:25

It was just beautiful to have you today I Saw your name pop up and then a sweat

02:17:52

And then and then Andre was grilling me on Romans 6 Well, we definitely, you know appreciate you coming on and we do enjoy the you know the conversation because these are important conversations to have and You know, we always want to dive into the word and make sure we understand what

02:18:12

God is telling us So we definitely would love for you to come back on. Yeah. Well, thank y 'all for the invitation

02:18:17

I'd love to continue that conversation and do that. I can hear me say I want to do that I have a few friends that might would be interested if y 'all want to continue this conversation with more

02:18:28

CJ knows Paul day. Have y 'all are y 'all familiar with that name Paul day? Not too familiar on my end

02:18:36

He's a good friend of mine He might be interested and something like that But we can continue this conversation through email or we can add each other's friends on Facebook or something

02:18:46

And you got my email so feel free to give it to your friends if they would like to come up and talk because we

02:18:52

Love talking to different faiths all the time. That's kind of what the platform is kind of built on Yeah, so do that for us.

02:19:00

That'd be great. Well, we Fish That that's

02:19:05

I was gonna say the fish bone teeth fish. We do a lot of shared content together I think he would be interested in doing something like this and All I can do is, you know express to them.

02:19:17

Hey, we want to do these Interactions with love and grace and we're obviously gonna differ, but I think we'd all agree with this

02:19:24

Maxim We trust God with whatever happens a man a man that's all there is, you know

02:19:29

And even if that is what we have in common then kudos to that. There's something we can build on You know,

02:19:35

I mean we all agree God's truth is contained in the 66 books. Hey, man

02:19:42

That's right. That's right. Amen. So again one body, which is the body his body

02:19:48

Which is his church the Church of Christ I mean if you just had some a little bit of common sense you think he drove by these denominations where it says grandma's church

02:19:57

Baptist Church Methodist Church Life Church, I mean he drove an hour 20 minutes here and they act like they give

02:20:05

God the glory in Jesus I mean grandma's church Baptist Church Presbyterian Church Church of Christ Same thing again they deny