Why Are Effeminate Men Gross and Wrong?

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for so much of human history it seemed like pretty much every single society throughout the throughout human history has understood that men and women are different and that you know men are are better at certain things than women are and vice versa women are better at certain things uh compared to men as well morning the following message may be offensive to some audiences these audiences may include but are not limited to professing christians who never read their bible sissies sodomites men with man buns those who approve of men with man buns man bun enablers white nights for men with man buns homemakers who have finished netflix but don't know how to meal plan and people who refer to their pets as fur babies your discretion is advised people are tired of hearing nothing but doom and despair on the radio heaven the issue is that humanity is in sin and the wrath of almighty god is hanging over our head they will hear his words will not act upon them and when the floods of divine judgment when the fires of wrath come they will be consumed and they will perish welcome to bible bash where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask we're your host harrison kerrigan pastor tim mullett and today we'll be seeking to answer the age -old question why are effeminate men gross and wrong now this is a conversation this is a conversation that's been um you know it's been going on for a while now especially within the last few years i think we've all sort of seen this really strange pushback against normal gender stereotypes especially as the lgbtq movement has really kind of taken off and become such a dominant feature of online culture you see you see a lot of people who really try and fight against the idea that men and women are different in a lot of different ways and and they have various strengths and weaknesses that are specific to their gender and so we've seen a lot of people who are trying to come along and say hey look men and women are the exact same there's no differences between them yeah they're basically just interchangeable parts right yeah and they're interchangeable parts and and even we've taken it so far that even now you know men can get pregnant by women right that's how far that's how far we've tried to take it this was so weird about it what's so weird about it is that this is the exact point that the transgender people are making and then you have conservative christians who are basically sounding just like the transgender individuals are are sounding you know as it relates to this topic of effeminacy so you know basically i don't know how we're arguing with them if there is no such thing as masculinity and if there is no such thing as a femininity and then if there really isn't even a concept of effeminacy in general so i mean plenty of the conversations i've had with people this week have been over this topic of effeminacy and you have basically you know christians who don't even have a category for what that could be right and why that could be wrong right yeah and and like i said you've really seen this this war against it basically um but then you know for so much for so much of human history it seemed like pretty much every single society throughout the throughout human history has understood that men and women are different and that you know men are are better at certain things than women are and vice versa women are better at certain things uh compared to men as well and it seems like every culture before us has really understood that to a certain degree but then we've come along and really sort of um twisted things in a way that's extremely unnatural i mean unnatural pretty much in every way that you could possibly think of um and so so that leads us that leads us to the problem we have now which is you have you have men who are coming even christian men who are coming along and saying hey it's okay to be effeminate the bible doesn't necessarily the bible doesn't you know um it doesn't it doesn't condemn men who are effeminate you know you don't have to be this you know really muscular dude who's angry all the time and you know drinks a beer every other every other minute right and then smashes the can on his forehead you don't have to be that kind of guy and you know that's that's a little bit of an exaggeration but it really it's it's kind of it's not much not much of an example it's really not and it's kind of it's kind of jarring honestly to see christians who are i guess i shouldn't be surprised by anything at this point but it is kind of jarring to see christians come along and you know say things like the bible doesn't doesn't mention effeminacy right uh as something that men should avoid which is just i mean you just have to i mean just read the bible and and you know that's not true but that that's what is leading us to have this uh type of episode uh that is to say you know why why is it so weird why is it gross why is it wrong when we see men who behave like they're women essentially um and so so i guess i guess where we'll start is just that topic question tim is why why you know just on surface level when i see when i see a guy who is who's dressed effeminately or who you know carries themself effeminately or or speaks effeminately it it's strange to me it feels weird to see that obviously you're you're hateful big i mean yeah obviously obviously i'm so putting that part of it aside why why is it just why does it feel wrong to even just observe someone else uh behaving that way well i guess you have you have two components to the question so you have the component why is it gross and then you have the component why is it wrong so um and then you know you're asking it in a way that you're collapsing both of those two together but i mean i guess we can we can address the gross first and then if you want we can address the wrong later i suppose that's the order you're wanting to go yeah yeah let's let's go in that order all right so the gross part i mean so i mean the gross part is one of those things where you shouldn't have to even answer that question because it's one of those things that paul essentially um you know in first corinthians 11 he's having a discussion about long hair and men he's basically saying nature itself teaches that it's shameful for men to have long hair and when he says that what he's saying is nature itself is teaching something meaning like you should you're you should intuitively know that this is gross i mean that would be another way to put it like it's shameful meaning it's gross right like it's it's shameful meaning like when you see a guy with long hair paul is saying what you should think is you should think that that is strange and that is intuitively repelling in a certain way it should be shameful so you have what's described as the yuck factor you know that many people use to describe this sort of thing but there should be a yuck factor that's associated with it like a sign of shame like i feel embarrassed for you i feel the kind of i'm starting to internalize the kind of shame that you should be feeling but you strangely aren't right right right that that's what's going on now now the reason why that would be so like in a certain sense this should be when a man acts like a woman and he takes on the habits the practices the mannerisms the dress like uh when he presents himself with all the signs and symbols that are associated with femininity when he does that everyone should be grossed out everyone should be um yeah emphasis on should be they should be you know i mean and i was i was making fun of big eva and i made a meme you know that i shared that got a few got got a few laughs out of it but um you know it's basically saying you know paul says to men be strong act like men and then big eva says we got this and i showed the picture of the guy in the crocs with the long hair and the hugging the puppies cuddling the puppies with the skirt on you know and i had people arguing with me about that picture as if i mean i couldn't believe some of the responses i got people arguing with me about that picture but like that should be gross and the reason why it should be gross is because like intuitively what people should know is that like a man doesn't make a good woman okay so there's something repelling about it because like what happens is you're you're what you're witnessing is a caricature of an idea right yeah so you're not witnessing the real thing so like and this is what people can't understand like femininity is a great thing like femininity is a wonderful thing like a woman can embody femininity and when a woman embodies femininity like that's a glorious thing in the bible like women are made to be the glory of a man that's a glorious thing it's a majestic thing it's a wonderful thing that's a great thing and they're like uh like but then all you have to imagine is you have to imagine bruce jenner putting on a dress and you realize that it doesn't it's not glorious anymore it doesn't translate very well it doesn't it doesn't like what you've done is you've just made a mockery of the thing right right so you like you've you've taken this concept that is appropriate when it's embodied in the way that it's supposed to embody and you've turned it into something that's a parody of itself because the thing is men are not made for beauty in the same way men are not made uh been men are not made to be beautiful and women are right right so a can be beauty beautiful she can embody that but when a man puts up puts upon himself and takes upon it uh takes it upon himself to put all those symbols of femininity on himself all you get is a caricature in the same way that like if a woman tries to make herself butch and manly it's not like it's not intimidating right it's pretty off -putting yeah it's pretty off -putting it's gross right it's gross like to see the lesbian bull dyke or whatever like that's that's gross like it's not like it's not manly it's not intimidating it doesn't accomplish the effect like that you're intending to accomplish right so when some radical feminist comes along cuts off all of her hair right puts herself in the ugliest clothes imaginable and tries to present herself as strong as strong no man looks at that and thinks to himself man i'm intimidated they think to himself what a joke right i mean uh that's assuming that the man is you know fairly masculine i could i could i could see some effeminate men saying hey i'm pretty intimidated by this lady if there is a such a man that actually exists you know and i'm sure that there are a few then that would be a sign of judgment upon him right yeah but you know the same thing is happening with the guy on the other end so it should be gross because it's contrary to nature meaning god's designed certain things to function in certain ways and when you reject the design that he has so men are designed to be strong women are designed to be beautiful among other things okay but when you have a woman trying to present herself as strong is it becomes a caricature yeah of the concept and when you have a man presenting himself as beautiful it's a caricature so the more that you do that the more that you um you you you embrace these symbols of femininity or masculinity when they're not appropriate to gender all you're doing is you're making yourself into a parody essentially yeah it's the equivalent of blackface but even worse i think i think way worse right right so that's why that's why it's gross right i mean that would be what that would be part of why it's gross i mean that's what paul is saying when he's saying nature itself is teaching this it's like you know it like essentially what you're meant to imagine is trying to use a screwdriver to hammer a nail you know it doesn't like you ruin the design that way it's not designed for that purpose and so you're you're meant to think oh don't do that right so i mean if you see someone like taking a wrench and hammering a nail or something everyone just kind of goes like recoils at that a little bit right you think to yourself like oh you know like like that's not what it's made for and you're ruining a perfectly good thing here right and so that's the reaction we should have with effeminacy is to be just it's shameful it's gross okay um so it's shameful it's gross um i guess one of the responses that a lot of people um really seem to have when it comes to this conversation is basically to say hey the bible doesn't say men need to be manly which is a little funny because it's kind of i i personally i think that this is pretty telling of someone's understanding of the bible um because you know you don't even have to read through the whole thing to understand that men god requires men to like men i mean i i know i i know for some that's kind of a profound sounding statement but if you just it's a deep mystery if you just read the bible a little bit you know and and i think you know in genesis right in genesis okay genesis well in the beginning he made them male and female right so then what you think when you read that in the beginning he made them male and female that male and female are two different things right with completely different roles right with different roles but not only different roles but different strengths and weaknesses they're just they're designed in different ways and i mean you don't even have to like it doesn't take a lot of intelligence to figure this out you know like meaning uh you know i posted this on twitter because i thought it was somewhat interesting but my daughter she's four uh vivian she has a game that she likes to play with me every night and it's and it's this game where you know what's your favorite animal is that's so she likes to chit chat with me before you know i'm putting her to bed she wants to chit chat with me like a woman does right and so then so she engages in you know small talk with me and then you know she asked me what's my favorite animal and so i would give her my favorite animal so when i first started doing this game i thought okay what's my favorite animal and i was trying to think because i'm not you know big animal lover and so i thought you know sheep because i can make uh euros out of them right and hey lamb is lamb's pretty good i love lamb so that's how i was trying to i was trying to answer it that way but then she looked at me she said no sheep are sheep are girl animals and so she was policing my answers right so i couldn't say sheep but because sheep in her mind was a girl animal and so i thought huh that's weird you know and so then i said well okay well cows because i was thinking hamburgers right but then cows were cows were girl animals too and so then i was like okay right and so i was like how how was she categorizing this kind of thing right so i'm trying to figure out how is she categorizing the difference between a boy animal and a girl animal because i'm not going to tell the birds and bees at this point but uh but then what i realized is that most herbivores in her mind were girl animals okay so anything that was nice like anything she thought of as a nice animal that was a girl animal right like anything she thought was pretty was a girl animal so like a horse right or a unicorn those are girl animals did you say a unicorn was your favorite animal i tried to just to see what would happen at some point and i was rebuked thoroughly for it you know because i i lost my man card with that one uh but then you know i was trying to figure out what is a boy animal any carnivore counted right okay any so i could get away with saying lions tigers bears right naturally yeah naturally but then anything that was kind of loud you know like a dog dog is obviously a boy animal cat's a girl animal in her mind right okay i mean and it makes sense i mean like once you figure out what's happening it makes total sense what's happening here right but then if i were to try i was trying to test the waters and i was like all right what about a monkey right and what do you think a monkey was uh i would say a girl animal i guess you think not to her she thought a monkey was a boy animal because it was funny because they're funny yeah yeah they're funny they're how are they funny well i mean they do funny things you know like i guess i have seen a video of an orangutan they're playful and funny put on sunglasses that someone dropped in there yeah they're funny that was pretty funny she knows that like ladies don't have the same kind of sense of humor as men like so she obviously the answer here is you're just you're it's because you're raising a bigot and training well i didn't teach her any of this stuff you know i didn't teach her so but then i tried to say well all right what about a buffalo right and buffalo is obviously a boy yeah boy animal yeah it's obviously a boy just because it's strong you know it looks strong and you know but the point though the whole thing is that she knows like right like if you try to like take stereotypical man traits and stereotypical woman traits and you map them on the animal kingdom you come away with this intuition that some seem to be more like human manly you know and some seem to be more human feminine right you know we need to put out a poll this week asking is a monkey a boy animal or a girl animal settle the debate hey she would not let me say it's a girl you know for sure but uh that'll be the debate but um no i mean so but the point though is just to say i think you know even young children know that men and women are different i mean it doesn't i mean my goodness just go go to a high school and you know observe the different sports teams right the guys like guys on sports teams look like you know some of them look like action figures right the ladies don't you know they don't you know so like it's just we're very different and that says something about how we're made but anyways i hijacked you but yeah so if the bible is you know so okay obviously we know there are a lot of men in the bible who are masculine right um sure right and david's mighty men right and i guess i guess it might be helpful i was what i was going to ask is you know where does the bible does the bible actually command so we know there are men in the bible who are this way but does the bible actually command us to be masculine but i think before i asked that actually i want to ask you to um you know like let's just define biblical masculinity now that now that we're 20 minutes into the episode why don't we define like what biblical masculinity is so people understand what we're talking about because i sort of painted a caricature at the beginning that's like hey you know you gotta be you gotta be extremely muscular you know basically like superman strength you've got to uh you've got to know everything about every sport that goes on you need to drink beer all the time and crush the can on your head right drive a giant monster truck uh that's a caricature right but then when we're when we are actually talking about masculinity in a serious manner what what are we what are we talking about here what does the bible you know say is masculine well yeah that's where like the other side has no definition of this concept whatsoever and that's the problem so basically what you have is the other side in this kind of discussion you you basically have men and women are interchangeable parts the only difference that that people can see is that there are certain roles there that are different if they believe that at all right so men and women are different and that they have different roles so obviously a woman is made to make a baby right yeah right you know you can't even say that most christians agree that that's the only way to make a baby these days i mean but you're not allowed to say it really even though it's obvious because then you're reducing a woman to a baby maker or something like that and then what about the woman who can't have babies and there are some women who are barren so what do you make of that but that doesn't the thing is like men and women are different they're made to do different things but in the minds of many people you don't have um like those differences are purely arbitrary so god just so happened to decide that a man should be the leader of his home who knows why right yeah because a woman could lead just as well as a man probably even better but then that's just the way god decided someone has to be the tiebreaker so it just so happens to be the man who's going to be the tiebreaker and that's the way that many people are actually thinking about these things but then what that betrays is that they don't have this concept of masculinity that you're talking about undergirds the project so um as i've interacted with people what they do then is like they only have a category for like what you might describe as the machismo or whatever uh which is uh you know the spanish way of putting it uh which is basically the category you've appealed to right so the machismo category is like the abusive loud male uh you know confident guy alpha male kind of right who is brash dominant you know probably sexually um uh active you know in that way and you know uh treats women like garbage treats women like trash he's strong right uh engages in destructive behaviors and and so what's happening on this other end is like you have people who basically are they only have like they don't know how to tell the difference between like that kind of category which is like a distorted kind of masculinity and then true masculinity and then femininity like they don't have all they have is just well whatever the biblical idea of masculinity is it's almost in their minds like the exact opposite of machismo right but then the exact opposite of machismo is uber femininity yeah so then masculinity becomes uber femininity in their and that's what's actually coming out right yeah yeah that's what's like this was actually happening but what you need is you need to realize well what is masculinity itself it's not really that hard i mean you just have to ask yourself how did god design men so masculinity is meant to be contrasted with femininity in the bible like the more you read the bible more you realize that the bible has given you a definition of masculinity but what you want to do is you want to tie it to the roles and responsibility that god has given men and the corresponding strengths and weaknesses that men actually have and so this like masculinity is just simply the you know the traits and the roles that are associated with being a man right which so so give us like a brief overview of what some of that looks like yeah so over and over and over again you know you read the bible um and over and over and over again you know men are designed for war okay big shock you know so men are stronger than women women are described as a weaker vessel men are stronger than women that means physically you know despite the fact that everyone wants to deny the obvious reality of olympic records and sports competitions men are obviously much stronger than women like significantly stronger than women because god designed men to be stronger stronger than women and that's why you can read the bible over and over and over again and you're going to see that men are over over and over again told be strong and be courageous because strength like physical strength encourages a mental strength emotional strength these are more in abundant supply in men than they are in women and it's not even close right so that's because so god's designed men to be warriors like that's why all the warriors in the bible are men right and jl isn't even an exception to that you know all she like in order to you know beat cicera she basically had to lull him into sleep and then drive a tent peg through his head when he was incapacitated and mobile but you don't have some kind of mulan like female character in the bible because that's not real right you know what i'm saying yeah like so what you need like so men are designed to be strong um and like so like when you think about that one trait of masculinity strength it can go two different ways so it can go the machismo way which is going to be basically where a man's going to take that strength and use it to destroy things yeah and to hurt other people and then if you if you take that same strength component of masculinity and put it in a biblical perspective then a man's going to use his strength to protect other people who are weaker yeah and to work to the glory of god in order to like so you know man's work was cursed like the toil of the ground was cursed for him and that meant that him plowing and digging and doing those hard things was going to be made harder right for him but then the thing is that was a curse to him because he was made to do that not woman right so woman wasn't made with the physical strength necessary be the one plowing the field you get what i'm saying yeah yeah basically basically strength uh in a bib use in a way that honors god is meant to create things and protect those created things right right so that's one characteristic of masculinity is strength and that's why over and over again you know men are told you know act like men be strong be courageous right enter into the promised land be strong and courageous you know every single new king is told to be strong and courageous and do the things that god calls them to do the strength and courage are masculine virtues that that are there right so that's part of it so you think about the roles but then there's also leadership men are designed by god uniquely to lead this isn't just something that like um that could go either way it's not just that women could be good just as good of leaders as men men are designed to lead so men are designed to protect they're designed to provide they're uh designed to lead and um you know and then they're also designed to sacrificially give of themselves to other people so you think about masculinity like all i'm trying to say is you're tying it to these roles you're tying it to these responsibilities and what's undergirding it is the uh is the physical differences between men and women that are going to make these things into um um enabled them to accomplish the roles and responsibilities that god has given them yeah does that make sense yeah yeah so so the fact that we're stronger you know it means that masculinity looks like protecting and building creating new things but then leadership as well being able to make decisions and then also just giving up ourselves right especially for our family and our our local church i assume yeah so we're equipped to be you know strong physically we're equipped to be strong mentally right strength and fortitude courage and that's going to equip us to be leaders it's going to equip us to protect other people you know that's going to equip us to do the hard physical labor of creation that we're to work hard hours to give of ourselves to engage in backbreaking labor you know all that like all that's that is tied into this concept of biblical masculinity i mean there's a lot more that we can say there i'm just trying to say that everyone knows what masculinity is and it's not all that hard to figure it out and my daughter can figure it out she knows the difference between masculinity and femininity you know and so and then part of how you do it is you can trust like things that i mean it's all the gender stereotypes that you can ever imagine like that's masculinity and it's not as if the bible is rejecting these normal obvious things the thing is it's just channeling that them in helpful ways instead of right unhelpful ways and and so now the problem is that you have a lot of like people who are coming along and saying well you know not everyone looks like chris hemsworth or something like that right yeah i definitely don't look like him so but if he's the standard of masculinity then you know then you're shaming all these guys who you know have their soft doughy hands and you know their uh effeminate girl voices and all that and you know are you saying that they're somehow not a man anymore and don't we need to encourage everyone and build everyone's self -esteem and part of the problem though is yeah not not everyone is equally manly sure right not every woman is equally feminine right yeah yeah they aren't they aren't equally feminine we know that right yeah just like everyone's not you know we don't all have the same iq we don't we don't we don't have all the same ability when it comes to you know sports or music or you know whatever it is we're all different right we're different yeah so i mean like just take you know let me say something that would horrify everyone like girls come in different shapes and sizes right so you know a girl who has more of an hourglass figure what do you describe her everyone knows what you describe her you say she has a womanly form right yeah a girl who uh doesn't have an hourglass figure who's straight what do you say you say she has a boy form boy boy shape right like yeah so we know that there are you know there's variation within the sexes but what you don't do is you don't use those variations to basically destroy the concept of masculinity and femininity together do you get what i'm saying yeah yeah so you don't take like the fact that there are variations but then you also have to like say well why like you can make those variations much more pronounced by being the kind of man who only hangs out with women who has no male influence in your life and who intentionally rejects anything that would could conceivably be understood as a masculine activity so if all you do is sit around having girlfriends chit -chatting with girls and you know you never uh ever even remotely try to do anything that might require strength and courage and you reject all those things and you know all you do is you know watch girly movies and you know uh and you know that kind of thing and all your influences in your life are girls and maybe that you come out not very masculine right but what you haven't done is disproven the concept of masculinity all you've done is show us how to reject it yeah yeah does that make sense and you know that kind of leads me into i was going to ask you like hey what do you tell the person because obviously you know obviously everyone's not the same obviously they're going to be people who um who sort of fall into the the uh you know the gender stereotypes more easily than other people do but then what you don't want to do as a christian is encourage a for example to all of the sudden because he doesn't feel like he fits into the you know masculine sort of stereotype that that there is and i'm saying stereotype a lot of people view that as like a a negative only word i'm not i'm not using that as a negative word i'm just saying hey there is a there is literally a stereotype right and it's not bad that it's there but when you uh when a when a guy doesn't fall into that he's going to be tempted to say okay well i must not fit in here let me go let me go look elsewhere and find something else that feels a little more my speed what what do you um what would you encourage that kind of guy with uh to help him um sort of you know pursue masculinity over femininity yeah i mean i don't think that you know the the stereotype here is just to say that art or the thing that people hear the caricature is that okay if you're not very manly then like you know you need to go and learn how to play sports and and i would say hey yeah that may actually help you a little bit even you know even if you aren't very coordinated and even if you aren't actually gifted that way it may be good for you to hang out with men and and i mean it's not as if there's no benefit there to adopting those practices but i mean i think what you want to do is you want to look at the biblical roles that god has given you to do and and try to do the type of thing pursue the type of activities that are that are going to make you the best equipped to embody those roles so i mean part part of the reason why these things are a little bit confusing is because we live in a society right now where there are basically no expectations upon a man to protect a wife for instance so let's just take one of those roles let's talk about strength developing strength and courage well you're living in a society right now like you if you make a decent kind of income you can put yourself in a pretty safe neighborhood to where you're not like the need to protect like your wife and your family is relatively low yeah right yeah right so but then the issue is if you abdicate that role of having to protect them because you're living in a pretty safe place other men are going to pick up the slack for you right that's why you have police officers and everything else they're picking up the slack for you they're being the strong and courageous people so you don't have to be but that doesn't like but what you've done is you've just handed over that role to someone else right yeah and we all take that as just normal that you hand that over to someone else but then just imagine like the anarchy actually happens what then right so imagine that the blm rally comes to your neighborhood right in order to demonstrate uh like the racism that's inherent in all of your white privilege and they're knocking on your doors like then what right imagine that like you're living in chaz like i mean imagine imagine that we do get nuked by the russians or whatever right and the government's out and it's all and it's anarchy all the way down right but that point you're going to realize it's your job to protect like you with your soft doughy fingers right right that haven't done a meaningful day's work in your whole life you're going to be responsible to protect your family because that's what god calls you to do and you're going to be woefully unprepared and inadequate to do that because the first sign of danger you're going to you know basically pee your pants and fall on the ground and you know in tears while horrible things are done to your family right so like the issue is you have that role you have that responsibility and right now you're not being forced to face it like you're not being forced to face it because you're living in a civilized society that's taking over those jobs for you right if that makes sense so but what i'm trying to say though is if you didn't lean on that you say hey this is actually my job and if you can put yourself in a different kind of society where it become much more imperative like then you might realize well that's why the weaker vessel typically gravitate towards men who look stronger than you look and it's not because they're just being irrational it's because they're making a calculation they're saying if danger comes i that guy could take care of me better than you can right um you know i i think i mean i heard um you know i was listening to some mike tyson interviews along these lines and and uh you know there's like the beautiful women mike tyson they'd be beautiful uh yeah it was it was uh i can't remember um someone was talking about mike tyson but basically there'd be beautiful women who would you know want to be seen with him and someone asked one of them you know why why do you want to be you know why why are you so attracted to mike tyson i mean he's a pretty ugly dude right and and it's and you know her response was there's something to be said about being near the you know the guy who can beat every other guy up right you know and and i mean so but here's the point the point though is just to say hey if you you're not you don't naturally gravitate towards those things well it's like you're living in a society that doesn't force you to but if you can put yourself in a different society what that would force you to do is to say hey i do have to actually keep myself reasonably strong yeah in order to do the things that god has called me to do and then i also have to have developed the courage necessary not just to fold like a cheap card trip trick whenever danger comes and so like traditional stereotypical masculinity it does train men to have courage to face like you know just look at all the youtube videos out there and what these youtube videos are showing is that men are putting themselves in reckless situations and you think well that's just stupidity on display it's like no they're training themselves to have courage right and it's like you can be the guy who says i don't want anything to do with that because i i'm i don't come naturally as good as some of the other guys right but then the thing is it's like well if you throw your like you can you can reject all that but what you're doing is you're really intuitively making yourself more undesirable to women which is why you know and plenty of effeminate guys are being pegged as being basically sodomites right and they end up being tempted that way it's because they're making themselves detestable to members of the opposite sex because that lady knows she's weaker than you and she knows she needs someone stronger than her and she doesn't want a guy who's too afraid like so afraid of her you know if he's afraid of her he's going to fold like a cheap card trick when the when the robbers come right yeah so the point though is just to say hey you may not be as good at first but you can work your work as hard as you can and try to compensate for it because god's roles don't change right does that make sense yeah yeah so there's something to be said about basically trying to um you know uh not necessarily like okay so we live in a first world country where you really don't you really don't have these kinds of problems i guess unless you move to like a democratic a democrat -run city or something right but depends on where you live yeah yeah so i guess it depends on where you live but like where we live for example is fairly safe overall you know so i'm not every time we're going out i'm you know i'm not having to fight off you know 20 guys that are trying to rob me my family um but there's probably something to be said about like hey you know you should you should at least get in that mindset right like hey what do i do in this kind of situation am i prepared to protect my family for example in this kind of situation but then beyond that even you know um uh pursuing things like i guess what are what are typically viewed as more masculine activities as well right so like there's probably something if you're physically strong aren't you more confident right yeah i mean if you when you work out on a regular basis you think man i can i'm i'm getting stronger that boosts your confidence that's not just i mean so yeah has limited value in terms of bodily exercises of little profit but like it it also does like give you more confidence and make you um like you know when you just let yourself go and you you you turn yourself into the weakest possible version of yourself you don't have confidence and if you don't have confidence you can't be a good leader right yeah and i think there is something to be said as well about you know paul and that society it's not necessarily like they were the society was not like our society so our society there's there's a ton of jobs that you can get where you basically just sit all day long right sure and you you might type things on a on a computer or work some kind of touch screen or or draw perhaps or whatever but but back then in the society that he's talking to everyone was pretty outside working all the men were outside working right yeah for the most part yeah i mean either being a soldier or having some kind of hard agricultural job right and so so sure you know when it comes to actual like whatever their version of like gold's gym what would have been right um there you know there's not a lot of value there but then that doesn't mean that they were weak right and so so for us muscles are for show more than anything right but i mean depending on where you're at you know if you're in prison they're not for show anymore yeah you have to you have to actually start thinking about hey i need to be a man and defend myself right yeah no i mean so but wait the the point though is just you wanna you want to put on these like you you want to operate according to your design so there's the kind of guy who basically says hey i'm not as strong as other guys i'm not as coordinated as other guys so why even try and there's the same kind of woman on the other side who does the same kind of thing she says i'm not as pretty as these other ladies so therefore i'm gonna make myself as ugly as possible i'm gonna let my armpit hair grow out right i refuse to even try i'm gonna let my hair just like be a mess you know cut it all off i'm gonna dress like a boy do i mean look totally unflattering and like what you have is like that butch girl has basically surrendered the project of femininity she's not even trying right and then big shock it's like guys don't like her it's like yeah you're not helping right and the same thing is happening on the other end where the guy basically abandons the masculine pursuits at all and pursues a feminacy all that's happening is he's just um he's making himself more and more undesirable to women now that's just like those things happen on a scale but then when you intentionally are pursuing femininity you're not just rejecting masculinity that's where we're having this kind of discussion where you can't even get people to say an intentional pursuit of femininity is wrong so i mean i posted that picture of the guy with the long hair wearing a skirt hugging puppies yeah and there's plenty of people saying that there's nothing unbiblical about that it's like well that's that's not just rejecting like masculinity or being a poor man right right that's intentionally throwing yourself into feminine symbols and that's part of what we need to talk about well is the wrong part of it what i've the only argument i've seen anyone really propose you know who's in the camp that you're talking about the one who's saying hey intentional an intentional pursuit of femininity from a man is not biblical uh it's not unbiblical the only argument i've seen is like hey okay so the bible you know the paul over and over again says um you know act like men right uh the effeminate will not inherit the kingdom right but what what i see them argue is is hey so most translations don't even use the word effeminate anywhere so therefore a guy can be effeminate and it's okay um and specifically in in um first corinthians chapter six paul gives a list of yeah verse six nine uh i mean chapter six verse nine you know he gives off a list of things and one of those uh one of those things listed off is effeminacy as like a negative as something that i can't remember if he says they won't inherit the kingdom or they won't enter the kingdom i can't remember exactly i'm sure you won't hear it yeah do not perceive yeah yeah do not perceive the uh you know the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of god uh neither fornicators and dollars nor feminine or uh nor adulterers nor feminine or homosexuals inherited god now some some translations uh because of the greek behind behind this passage some translations leave out effeminate and they just say you know those who participate in homosexual and um i can't remember practice homosexuality yeah um and and but then you have other you have other trends you have a few translations that use effeminacy as its own word on that list but it seems like others sort of combine um that greek word and then the next greek word into uh homosexuality right and so so is that enough to say hey guys don't have to be masculine well i mean it's the dumbest argument in the world all right so i mean what you have you have two words there are two greek words one is arsenic ortai and then the other is um malakoi and so basically um what's being argued is the arsenic ortai is the active partner of a you know a sodomite relationship and then the malakoi is the passive partner in the um in the sodomite relationship and we'll let your mind fill in the blanks there as far as all those things are concerned and that may well be the case it may well be that you know malakoi is describing a katamite you know the passive partner there uh the you know that it basically it can have two different usages so one usage could be soft or delicate to the touch and then the other usage can be the usage of the passive partner uh but like it really doesn't there's a sense of which it just doesn't matter at all okay so what you have is you a group of individuals who basically are demanding that you need to in order for effeminacy to be a sin you need to have a specific word in the bible that's that says effeminate right so you need that so that's what's being demanded but that's just a silly way of arguing right yeah so i mean paul says to you know paul says uh um basically to to um let's see uh first corinthians 16 13 be watchful stand firm in the faith act like men be strong yeah that's a command by the way that's a command so i mentioned that yeah i mentioned that in a meme and someone came along and said you know laugh out loud you know no word paul has never said that you know uh that's nowhere to be found in paul and then i pointed to that verse and that didn't basically cause them to rethink their life at that point but no i mean paul tells men to act like men to be strong and over and over again you see that the continual admonition to men in the bible is to be strong and to be courageous and this is what they're told to do and so like the issue is like what is a man what is a man and what is a woman what is masculinity what is femininity so if god created men and women and god created men and women different right so he created them different and he designed for them to be to have different roles then like here's the point like the point is god's designed men and women different to fulfill different roles if you're going to be a man like to act like a man like if you're going to be a man in the way that god calls you to if you're going to live up to the role that you design then you have to pursue masculinity whatever that means right because paul i mean paul paul commanded it act like well yeah i mean but yeah i mean paul says act like men but then god made you different too like so part of this is like design argument meaning god made you to be a man so you need to figure out what it means to be a man and pursue it right and that's what masculinity actually is is pursuing things like pursuing manliness like living up to your design and that's going to look different than pursuing femininity right because femininity is a different design and there's different things that femininity is designed to do right so it's different it's a different type of thing like females are different types of things than men and were created to do different types of things and so if you want to prepare yourself to be a woman right it's like a woman going to seminary in order to learn to be a pastor like it literally makes no sense because you're not called to be a pastor so why would you be trained to do something that you why would you train yourself to do something that you're not equipped to do and not qualified to do yeah yeah right so like if i were to throw myself into you know like spend the bulk of my life learning how to have a baby and go to lamaze classes and you know like it's just nonsense it's like i'm wasting my time here you know i'm doing something that's just makes no sense whatsoever and so like that's where you have these two different concepts and now like the idea of effeminacy and this is what people don't understand the idea of effeminacy is where a man is intentionally pursuing the traits the habits the mannerisms the dress the of a woman right and so then you know if you want to know why is that wrong well you know there's plenty of passages that you can go to to show that exact same thing so deuteronomy 22 5 says a woman shall not wear a man's garment nor shall a man put on a woman's cloak for whoever does these things is an abomination to the lord why are they an abomination to wear a woman's garment why is it for a man to wear a woman's garment an abomination to god that's a pretty heavy statement to say it's an abomination right yeah so what is the sin there this sin there is the sin of effeminacy so you're a man and you're presenting yourself as a woman by putting on a woman's garment why is it shameful for a man to have long hair and why is it shameful for a woman to have short hair because you with your hair are pursuing like a woman with short hair is pursuing is embodying masculinity man with long hair is embodying femininity yeah you're rejecting god's design right so a woman's designed to have long hair for her glory it said the text says like so if you if you grow your hair out as a man what you're doing is you're having pretty girl hair that's not what you're designed to do you're designed for a different purpose function so whether or not you're you're the you know the passive partner in a sodomite union you know quote unquote what you're doing is you're presenting yourself as a woman sexually right growing out long hair you're presenting yourself as a woman with your hair right that's effeminate right so you can be effeminate in your actions presenting yourself as a passive partner you can be effeminate in your hairstyles you can be effeminate in your dress but you can also be effeminate in your mannerisms right and you can be effeminate in your rejection of masculinity by instead of being strong and courageous as the bible tells you over and over again you pursue weakness and femininity right so the issue is that there's a concept like all those things are symptoms of a problem like a bigger problem that's rejecting the design that god has for you right and god doesn't like it when you when you reject that design so if you're a man who's basically making yourself as girly as you possibly can you're rejecting the design he made you for and not only is it a sin against him it's just you're ruining your life right yeah like when you do that all you're doing you're making yourself undesirable to women even more so than you already feel and you're making you're flagging that you're open to same -sex relationships that's what you're doing you know and it seems like a lot of it seems like a lot of times those kinds of people end up you know pursuing those kinds of relationships instead of normal heterosexual ones because they're playing into it right right you just give yeah same thing with the lady you know who dresses like a man you know starts talking like a man all of a sudden you know who do you think is going to be attracted to her well men aren't going to be attracted to her only women and then it's like well i guess i'm a lesbian right how i have all so like what you're doing is you're sabotaging your ability to actually live according to god's design you're doing something that's fundamentally an abomination to him anyways and then you're um yeah yeah preventing yourself essentially from being able to follow through with the things he's actually and so for the the people that are saying hey it's okay for a guy to be effeminate basically for them to prove their point they have to if you know assuming assuming they're christians who uh who believe in the bible um they have to they have to have some kind of verse or some kind of passage that is that speaks to um you know the permissibility of a man being allowed to pursue femininity and it and it be presented as like a positive thing right um i mean that's basically what we're doing can go yeah the burden of proof can go both ways right so they can look at us and say well i need to burden a proof you need to show a proof text in the bible that says effeminacy is wrong but we can look at them you say no you show me a proof text where it says femininity is okay right yeah because i mean we're i mean number one it's pretty easy to find a proof text from from our you know that are that uh proves like what we're saying here um but then you know on the flip side i don't know that i can think i mean there's nothing there's nothing yeah i mean you basically have to take every like the only way that it makes sense is if you do if you have no concept of masculinity and femininity so what's happening is that basically you have a group of people who can't tell the difference between a man and a woman except for certain biological things that are different right and so then ontologically in terms of their makeup men and women are interchangeable parts they just look they have cosmetic differences on the outside right basically the only difference between a man and woman is that a woman can technically have a baby right in the minds of most evangelicals so if that's your understanding of these things there's no difference there are only purely cosmetic differences period the end then this conversation we're having is incomprehensible right yeah right yeah and i think the other the only other possible argument um against what we're saying that i can think of is the person who comes along and and you know basically creates a straw man uh with the what kind of what what did you call that the machismo machismo machismo masculinity you know um right and and which the bible chuck norris masculinity which the bible like it doesn't condone that kind of masculine the kind of masculinity that is you know aggressive just to be aggressive and get your own way and you know and destroy things right that's not the kind of masculinity the bible the bible tells us to pursue that's not what honors god and so i could see them trying to create a straw man um with that but and possibly to you know maybe maybe present jesus in a way that he's not actually presented in the bible because you know there there are a lot of people who are confused and think that jesus was like a you know a 70s hippie with long flowing hair and and flowers and flowers uh and his hair and you know he's got um bell -bottom jeans or something i assume uh drives a volkswagen van or something i guess and um and they would look to that and say see you know jesus is rebelling against the you know typical notion of masculinity even when he gets captured he doesn't fight back he tells peter to not even fight back right he tells peter to not defend him and so he is breaking the stereotypical norm here and and i think that's just a silly thing to try to try and argue number one is it's not really accurate to who jesus was because jesus actually was pretty aggressive um and in certain scenarios yeah cleansing the temple yeah you bearded vipers who warned you to flee from yeah i mean that's just not that's just not generally like a a female thing to do right um sure to go to go and flip over all the guy's tables and make a make a whip to to drive people out with you know um so so it's not really a fair yeah you have to create some kind of straw man basically is what i'm saying to even defend the art to try and prove the fact that uh the bible is saying hey it's okay to be a woman but then you have to ignore all of the yeah the old testament stuff about um clothing right um about the responsibility of a man and leadership uh that's in the old testament and the new testament you have to ignore paul saying hey i mean just literally act like men right that that has to mean that has to mean something it's not apparently yeah on twitter it only means yeah on twitter apparently only that what that means is um like it doesn't mean don't act like a woman uh -huh but i don't know if that that's just like don't act like a woman okay so i don't know what the other option is uh you like if you're if that doesn't mean don't act like a woman you know then i i mean i suppose what it means is like don't act like a transgender person i don't know okay so so basically the bible you know if we could try and sum all this up basically the bible is just it's teaching us that hey okay why why are effeminate men gross well it's because they're rejecting their god -given design in every way possible really um but then why is it wrong well not only number one it's wrong because you're rejecting your design right so you're you're looking at god and saying hey god i i don't accept the way that you've made me i'm going to i'm going to pursue something better in my eyes right but then it's also wrong just because there are actually explicit commands uh that tell us as men to act like men and avoid effeminacy right um but then there are other commands that you're basically not even able to pursue anymore and try and obey because because uh as a consequence of not behaving like a man right right and and those can yeah i mean and it's like unloving to everyone around you it's unloving yeah well because i mean because you're not creating anything it's harder to produce anything of value when you're not creating anything with your strength making yours yeah i mean if you want to make yourself revolting to your spouse then try to be the opposite gender than what you actually are and if you want to profoundly confuse your kids and you know have give them no picture about what they should be aspiring towards i mean god's the thing is god's designed the world the way he's designed it and he's designed women to be attracted to men who are manly and he's decided to attract he's designed the world in such a way that men would be attracted to women who are feminine and if you want to reject all that like let's say that you somehow get married here you're still you know making your spouses like providing them temptations to detest you right you know right okay well i think that's a good place for us to sort of wrap all this up on and hopefully this has given you guys a lot to think about and um it really it has equipped you to number one just you know go to the people around you and who especially for guys go to the other guys around you who really feel like they're struggling with these things and feel like they don't you know naturally fit into the the um the biblical type of masculinity that's presented in the bible and so that uh this has given you the tools basically and the understanding to come alongside them and help encourage them to pursue masculinity as a command because i think it's pretty clear that the bible says men you know they need to act like men and um and you know assuming the same for women women need to not act like men but act like women and so hopefully this has been an encouraging conversation for you guys something that's really equipped you guys we thank you for all the support that you give us each week as you watch the episodes as you listen to the episodes and we look forward to having you on the next one this has been another episode of bible bashed we hope you have been encouraged and blessed through our discussion we thank you for all your support and ask you to continue to like and subscribe to bible bashed and share our podcast with your friends and on social media please reach out to us with your questions pushback and potential topics for us to discuss in future episodes at bible bashed podcast at gmail .com