December 26, 2017 Show with Dr. Desmond Ford on “The Investigative Judgment & The Everlasting Gospel”

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 26th day of December 2017, the day after Christmas.

I am so delighted to have on this program for the very first time Dr. Desmond Ford.

Dr. Ford received his BA in theology at Avondale College in Australia.

He has his master's in systematic theology from Andrews University and a PhD in rhetoric about the

Pauline epistles from Michigan State University here in the United States and another

PhD in eschatology from Manchester University in England.

He is a teacher and minister of the gospel and has been for over 50 years. He's a former head of the religion department at Avondale College in Australia for over 16 years, a former member of the

Biblical Research Committee, the Seventh -day Adventist's chief theological committee in both

Australia, now working independently through a non -profit ministry for over 20 years in Auburn, California and the

USA. And that is called Good News Unlimited and today we are going to be discussing

Seventh -day Adventism, the investigative judgment and the everlasting gospel and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Dr.

Desmond Ford. Thank you, Chris. It's my privilege and my honor and I do indeed thank you for this opportunity.

Yes, I thank you even more because I know that you had to get up at a ghastly hour of the morning to be on the program.

It's right now just a little past 7 a .m. in Australia at least where Dr. Ford is in Eastern Standard Time and by the way the church that I am a member of,

Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, we were a part of a church plant just recently in Perth, Australia and I was wondering if you are anywhere near Perth?

It's five hours by plane. Wow. It's the most isolated city in the world, five hours from Sydney.

Wow. Well, before I even go into a bit of your own personal testimony,

I wanted to get an idea of the kind of religious atmosphere you were raised in and how the

Sovereign Lord drew you to himself and saved you and how you believe you had a call to the ministry but before we do that, let our listeners know something about Good News Unlimited.

Well, Chris, Good News Unlimited began when I was exiled from the

Adventist church because of my protests against the investigative judgment teaching which

I knew that most of the scholars for 75 years had rejected.

So when I was put out of my teaching position at Pacific Union College, hundreds of people around America who had heard me preach of weekends, they got together and formed

Good News Unlimited and it's been going for nearly 40 years. In Australia, I've probably taken several hundred talks for Good News Unlimited in this country but I've also spoken in many other countries,

Canada, England, Russia, Germany and so on. As for my

Christian background, I was born an Episcopalian. We call them

Anglicans over here and I was fortunate enough to hear some good preachers as a young boy, probably from what we call the

Low Church. Sydney is the center of the Evangelical Low Church.

Yes, I actually know a minister from that group, David Old. Do you know David? I don't know

David but there are many wonderful men in the Sydney Anglican church. There were men like Leon Morris and all sorts of men who were very influential.

Well, I attended the Anglican church but I was challenged regarding the fourth commandment, whether it should be taken literally like the other nine and I believe that the

Ten Commandments as interpreted by the New Testament was still binding and as a boy,

I could not find anything in the New Testament about the change from the seventh day to the first.

So, I became an Adventist at that time but not long after Chris, in reading

Hebrews 9, I got a shock. In Hebrews 9 verses 7 and 8, 12 and 25, as well as Hebrews 10, 1 to 4 and Hebrews 6, 19 and 20,

I found the New Testament clearly taught that the Day of Atonement pointed to the cross whereas Seventh -day

Adventists had it pointed to their origin in 1844 and the

New Testament said it pointed to Calvary and I was still only a teenager, 15 years of age and it gave me a shock and I worked for years to try and find a way out of that problem and I failed.

So, ultimately, when, because of my emphasis on the evangelical college,

I was moved to America to get me out of Australia. There arose a ferment in America among us over 1844 and the investigative judgment and I was asked by the forum of PUC if I would speak on the subject at a forum meeting.

This is 1979. I said it will only cause trouble.

They said, no, you can say anything you like in a forum. And they promised you immunity, didn't they?

That's correct. Well, they're a lovely group of people and I said yes because for 30 years

I'd been trying to get the Adventist church to face the problems, especially those in Hebrews, but not only

Hebrews. In Daniel chapter 8, the little horn has its first fulfillment in Antiochus and it's talking about a wicked power defiling the sanctuary, not the sins of the saints.

And then I found out, too, that the year -day principle wasn't a biblical one.

I think God and his providence used it for centuries when Christians were worried about the delay of the second coming.

But an Adventist minister, a conference president for his PhD, wrote a dissertation called

The End of Historicism and that got rid of the year -day principle.

So, at Pacific Union College, the forum expected 20 people or 40 or 60, but they came to 100, then 200, then 500, and 1 ,000.

And we had to leave our site and go up to Irwin Hall. It was a great site to see hundreds of people going up to Irwin Hall.

And I spoke there for about an hour and I proclaimed myself a loyal Adventist, but not a traditional one.

I saw things differently to my own people in a number of respects.

And I dealt with Daniel 8 and I dealt with Hebrews 9 and Hebrews 6, the year -day principle, the misuse of Ellen White as a

Bible instead of as just a pastor. And they asked another man, Dr.

Syme, if he would reply to me. But he stood up and said, I mainly agree with Dr.

Ford. I'm not going to say anything negative. Well, this upset the church and they gave me six months to prepare a document that would be studied at a worldwide committee.

And I wrote 1 ,000 pages for it and rejoiced at the opportunity because here was

God's providence giving me a chance to point out the problems of the church.

And at Lacey View, everyone was very friendly except the president of the church.

He was not quite so friendly, but everyone else was friendly and they had all sorts of meetings, but the meetings counted nothing.

Finally, they had a consensuous meeting with some very good men, Fritz Guy and Duncan Eve, William Johnson, that's

J -O -H -N double S -O -N, very spiritual man, all good men. But the document they came up with in at least seven places, key places, supported what

I'd written. But my judges that Friday didn't know enough theology to see that.

So I said to my brethren, you've already accepted a large section of what

I've said against the investigative judge, only a few years and you'll accept it all.

So Chris, I want to emphasize this. I have nothing but affection for the

Seventh -day Adventist church, but my sorrow is that despite the fact the scholars gave it up three quarters of a century ago, there's not been a scholarly book written on investigative judgment for over a century.

Despite the fact that ministers have given it up, the leaders persist in cherishing it.

Wow. Now, I think it might be helpful for us to back up and give some basic universal beliefs and practices of the

Seventh -day Adventist church for the listeners that I have that are very unfamiliar with them.

Most people know that Seventh -day Adventists worship on Saturday. In fact, they believe, just as the

Jews, that the Sabbath begins sundown on Friday. And I know that many but not all

Seventh -day Adventists are vegetarians, and I know that they obviously hold a prophetic view of Ellen G.

White. Can you share anything else? And also, I know that there is a unique view of eschatology, if I'm not mistaken, that Seventh -day

Adventists hold. But if you could tell us, basically, what universally are doctrines held by Seventh -day

Adventists? Chris, this is an excellent question. Let me say first that James A.

Beverley has written a book, Nelson's Guide to Religions, in which he says that Adventists are mainly orthodox.

They are not cultic. Here he is echoing Walter Martin, whom

I knew years ago. Walter was a diabetic and died of a heart attack while still apparently in good spirits and good health.

But he and I talked together, and he wrote documents saying Adventists are not cultic, but they hold some views that are pretty close to cultism in elevating

Ellen White against her desires, making her almost a

Bible, though she said never use my writings instead of the Bible. And Adventists, by a yearday principle, have set a series of dates, every one of which is wrong.

1844 is wrong. 538 is wrong. 1798, even the date they give for Christ's death, 31

AD, is wrong. And they are thus defying Christ, who on Acts 1 .7

said it's not for you to know the dates. So the three things that stand out that are heretical in Adventism is this idea that the saints can't have assurance because they're coming into an investigative judgment before Christ returns, and many who think they're saved will be lost.

There's no assurance if you believe the investigative judgment teaching. And yet John 5 .24

says you've passed from death unto life. You have eternal life. You're not under condemnation.

The Bible repeatedly says that. 1 John 4, these things are written that you may know you have eternal life.

The Christian rejoices. He's one with Christ. He was buried with him in baptism.

He rose with him on the third day. He died with him at Calvary. And so he has the verdict of the last judgment.

So that's the worst heresy, investigative judgment. But the historicist approach to prophecy, trying to interpret the

Old Testament prophecies using the yearday principle, is out of date. An Adventist conference president wrote his

PhD dissertation, The End of Historicism, and many

Adventist ministers have read it and given up the yearday principle, but the church leaders still cherish it.

Many of them good men, but sadly many of them ignorant theologically.

And then perhaps in some ways the worst mistake, Ellen White, who lived to 87 years, who took over 450 public meetings, sometimes to 22 ,000, often just a couple of thousand, spoke in 82 cities, even in her 80s traveled across America and back, taking meetings.

A great lady, I've known many who knew her, but Adventists have abused her. They have misused her.

They've used her as a Bible, as though every line she wrote was inspired. She said, as for infallibility,

I've never claimed it. You can't honor God by error. Age won't make error into truth.

Truth can afford to be fair. Don't think, God, you've believed something for years. Your ideas are infallible.

But the church has not obeyed their prophetic leader, and they've used Ellen White as though she was this, and Ellen White was wrong.

In great controversy, there are at least 14 passages where the

Bible is exegeted, and every one is wrong. Not one of them is today in Adventist literature.

Not one. And when she wrote Desire of Ages, in the last page of the

Calvary chapter, she applied the Day of Atonement to the cross. And when she wrote

Acts of the Apostles, years later, on page 33, she applied the

Day of Atonement to the whole atoning ministry of Christ, from his incarnation to his second advent.

So there are the three problems with Adventism. And my problem is, they know it.

Many of the leaders know it. But they have not the courage to say, we were wrong.

We have dishonoured God. We've brought fear to the hearts of millions of our people by teaching an investigative judgment that doesn't exist.

They're New Testament Christians. There's not a line in the New Testament about the investigative judgment.

I've written four or five books on Daniel. There's not a line to support in Daniel an investigative judgment.

Now, when you wrote the book Daniel 8 .14, the Day of the Atonement and the

Investigative Judgment, were you at that time a non -believer in that teaching?

Oh yes. That book of a thousand pages, originally, was to show that all the excuses used for the investigative judgment, all the so -called biblical arguments, every one of them was wrong.

And the reason the book is so big, I was looking ahead to the future. Anyone who would criticise, anyone who would try and support, and the fake, dead, passé doctrine, would find the answer in the book you have just entitled.

Now, did Seventh -day Adventism become, over the years, more biblically orthodox since the days that L.

N. G. White founded it? Because I've heard, and perhaps you could either confirm or dismiss these ideas, but I have heard that L.

N. G. White originally, at least, denied the Trinity and the Deity of Christ, are those true claims, that she denied those two things.

And the other thing would be that I have heard that the Adventists and L. N. G. White originally believed that there would be no other professing

Christians in heaven other than the Seventh -day Adventists. In other words, all other denominations were false churches, and worshiping on Sunday is the mark of the beast, and therefore no one who is worshiping on Sunday, at the return of Christ anyway, would be saved.

Are those true statements? Chris, you are right in saying that those things have been said, but it is not true that those things are found in Adventist literature of the last 60 or 70 years.

The idea of the mark of the beast was something that would happen in the future when church and state united to persecute a non -conforming thought by many eschatological scholars on Revelation 13, but they brought in the

Sabbath there, and they said whoever obeyed man rather than God then, at the end of time, would get the mark of the beast.

But all those things you've mentioned cannot be found in Adventist writings of the 50s or 60s years before today.

Ellen White believed in the Trinity. It's very clear in the first chapter of Desire of Ages.

W. W. Prescott helped to write it. He was very orthodox and a man who'd been president of colleges and who gave up the investigative judgment.

Ellen White did not believe that people of other churches were lost. She told Adventist ministers, go and pray with other ministers.

Don't speak so much against the Catholics. And Adventists have had a, you know,

Adventists have been known as people that hate the Catholics and don't eat meat. That's a terrible picture, and it's dangerously true for a small minority.

It's not true for the church at large. Well, the not eating meat part, at least that was something that they had in common with the

Catholics at one time when they used to forbid it on Friday, but that of course is not a discipline anymore.

Now, as far as Ellen G. White's status as a prophetess, do you, did the, well, let me rephrase this.

I got the opinion through my friendship with Seventh -day Adventist pastor years ago that there was disagreement on what level of respect and authority she and her writings had.

You had those that nearly put her writings on par with the scriptures or above it, and you had others who viewed her with no more authority than I would view my hero

Charles Adams Spurgeon. Where is the truth in regard to what a Seventh -day

Adventist must believe about her? Well, Ellen White never once said she was a prophet.

She wrote about a hundred thousand pages, more than any woman before her or since.

Many of those pages are beautiful gospel pages. The book Steps to Christ is a wonderful gospel book.

It's gone to 100 billion copies, translated into 165 languages, and I think,

Chris, that you'd agree with every page of it. I read it as a boy of 10 before I was an

Adventist and found the love of God. And later on, when I was debating with people about perfectionism, she said, since we're fallen, we cannot perfectly obey a holy law, but our righteousness comes from Christ.

So Ellen White, at least in the last 25 years of her life, particularly after 1888, when there was a great among Adventists over the gospel, ever since that time, she made the gospel her main theme.

She said it's the sweetest melody of human lips. She said we don't have to make our peace with God.

You never can. You never will. But you're called to accept Christ, who is our peace.

She said you don't have to be anxious about what God thinks of you, only what he thinks about Christ.

So she would agree with those verses to run and work the law commands, but gives me neither feet nor hands.

Better news the gospel brings. It bids me fly and gives me wings.

I love that hymn. That's a beautiful one. So she was very much gospel in the last 25 years, and she over and over again said, don't use my writings instead of or in front of the

Bible. I have a book here called Evangelism on page 256. He says, let none bring the testaments to the front.

But there are Adventists who are very extreme, but they're in every group, Chris. Even where you worship, there'll be some that perhaps you think at times are a little extreme.

It's true in every church. Reformed Baptist? Never. I'm just kidding.

The church is like every individual Christian. We say with Paul, wretched man that I am.

Who'll deliver me from this body of death? He said that in the section on sanctification,

Romans 6, 7 and 8. It's in the present tense. It's in the first person. It's 14 years after he was converted.

And he said, wretched man I am. Was he committing adultery? No. Killing? No. Stealing? No.

Why'd he say it? He didn't love enough. He didn't pray enough. He didn't trust enough.

So he said, wretched man that I am. There aren't any perfect Christians. Now, as I told you before the program,

I really enjoyed the episodes of the John Ankerberg program that you conducted with Walter T.

Ray. That was quite some time ago. Was that in the 80s, 1980s? I think it was in the early 1980s.

Okay. Yeah. That was a fascinating program. And you were still, at that time, a Seventh -day

Adventist. Yes, I was officially sacked two years later.

But one year before, I knew I was sacked because I offered to give me a job in the health food factory.

And I guess that was a diminishment of your role there. I did not think

God had called me to work in the factory. And, well, it seemed that you were, at the time, when you were doing the

Ankerberg program with the Reverend Walter T. Ray, that you were, although you were agreeing with Reverend Ray on many things,

Reverend Ray who wrote the book The White Lie, although you were agreeing with him on many things, there was a bit of mild tension between the two of you.

You were in disagreement. And I was wondering, since then, have you come to be more in agreement with Reverend Ray than you were then?

Or what has changed since those John Ankerberg episodes in your life? I disagreed with the bitterness, the sarcasm, the approach

I felt of Walter, who was my friend, but I felt his approach was not a

Christian approach. And I am still opposed to anyone who uses a bitter spirit in their fight against Ellen White or against Seventh -day

Adventism. Our only job is to exalt Christ and to exalt this book.

So where have I gone since that time? Well, I'm more and more sure of all the things

I wrote in the thousand -page manuscript on Daniel 8 .14

and Investigative Judgment. I'm more sure than ever. And that's why, although I love the

Adventist people, I feel somewhat shy in attending their meetings because I'm not one with them in their intellectual beliefs, because they hold to three dominant heresies that I cannot agree with.

And I'm more there now, even when I was with Walter Ray, although I held those three beliefs at that time, but not in a bitter spirit.

By the way, you mentioned Walter Martin earlier. One of my most loyal listeners is his daughter,

Cindy. Right. Well, I knew Walter well. We ate together.

We laughed together. We prayed together. We disagreed together. When he and I argued on many things, we came out as one.

But when we argued on the nature of man, we didn't. He just refused to pursue it.

We're going to be going to a break right now, and I'd like to let you know in advance,

Dr. Ford, that either mute your microphone on your side during the break, or try not to speak, because everything that you say will be heard during my station break.

So I just wanted to warn you in advance about that. I don't want to have you say something that you'd rather not have broadcast over the air.

But we're going to be returning in just a minute. If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. God willing, we'll be right back with more of Desmond Ford, Seventh -day

Adventism, the investigative judgment, and the everlasting gospel. Don't go away.

God willing, we'll be right back. matter.

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Welcome back, this is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours with 90 minutes to go is

Dr. Desmond Ford of Good News Unlimited. He is a former Seventh -day Adventist and today we are addressing the theme of his book

Seventh -day Adventism the investigative judgment and the everlasting gospel. If you have a question you'd like to ask our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com

chrisarnzen at gmail .com. Please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside of the good old

USA and Dr. Ford I'd like to ask you a question. How much have you retained in your current theological positions and active faith from your

Seventh -day Adventist days? That is a splendid question and I believe wholeheartedly in the inspiration of the

Bible. I retain that reverence and respect.

I still very much long for the second advent of Christ from which

Adventists took their name. I am still a Sabbath keeper but I'm usually worshipping where I preach and I have taken thousands of meetings since the church said goodbye to me.

So in many respects I still maintain what even non -Adventists call a type of orthodoxy except for the

Sabbath. I still have found no evidence from the New Testament that said the seventh day was changed to the first but in most things

I'm very much an orthodox Christian and therefore in many ways still an

Adventist but I reject the investigative judgment. I reject the historicist interpretation of prophecy and I reject the use of Ellen White as a

Bible. Chris before I forget it can I ask you a question? Sure. Is there any chance you have influence in America that I don't have?

I long for the day when Christian magazines perhaps getting it from you will say

Desmond Ford as he enters his 90th year urges the church leaders of Adventism to give up teachings which they know are wrong especially investigative judgment.

Any hope of that happening? Only God knows that. I probably have a lot less influence here than you may think

I do but I do have a couple of acquaintances who are

Seventh -day Adventist pastors who have had various or varying I should say responses to me when

I brought up things like the investigative judgment. Some held to it firmly and others have told me that there is prayerful investigation no pun intended going on behind the scenes amongst ministers who are questioning things like that.

So he told me that he one of them anyway I'm not going to identify him of course but one of these

Seventh -day Adventist pastors that I spoke with told me that there was a lot more doubting and questioning of some traditional

Adventist beliefs that have been viewed by those outside of Seventh -day

Adventism as heretical. So he told you the truth more and more

Seventh -day Adventists refuse to speak on the investigative judgment it's passé.

I took a meeting for 350 Adventists about two years ago near Avondale College and they asked 13

Adventist ministers if they would reply to me not one would accept it.

Well we have some listeners already who have questions they want you to answer. First of all we have

Linda in Hilltop Lakes Texas and she says our daughter went to an

Adventist medical university in Mexico. She was taught that water baptism was to be done in the name of the

Father Son and Holy Ghost and in the name of Ellen G White. Oh that's terrible.

And can you ask the question you using my name or not what does Reverend Ford say about this?

I say that is altogether wrong and I have never seen an

Adventist baptistry cursed by such wrong words.

We don't baptize in the name of Ellen White. Adventists never have do not and never will but I can't vouch for things that happen in Mexico.

And we have a listener in Slovenia his name is

Joe. Dear brothers Chris and Desmond I'm wondering about what

Seventh -day Adventists believe about the human nature of Christ. Do they believe that Jesus Christ possessed a human nature that was not only weakened by sin but had propensities towards sin itself?

Do they believe that his nature was like that of Adam after the fall? Do they teach that because of his success in overcoming sin

Jesus is primarily our example? That is a splendid question and it is true that Seventh -day

Adventists too often spoke of Christ having a fallen sinful nature but in the last 25 years or longer the church has repudiated that beginning with the book

Questions on Doctrine and ending with the book Seventh -day

Adventist belief. So we were guilty of it and it's a terrible teaching because as far as the

New Testament is concerned Christ is our savior first and our example second and we should never reverse it.

I cannot labor with my hands to save my soul this the Lord has done but I would work like any slave for love of God's dear son.

So the questioner is right on the beam. Adventists have been guilty of that but not since the book

Questions on Doctrine first appeared some decades ago. So did

Ellen G. White teach that that Jesus had a fallen sinful nature? There are some very early statements, very few, but there are a few lines that might indicate that but never in her last decades of life.

In her last decades of life she said exactly the opposite. Ellen White was like other women.

She changed her mind sometimes. But unfortunately as you know there are people that view her speaking infallibly which

I know that you disagree with. Definitely disagree with. Yes and I guess that also hinges on the controversy over the impeccability or peccability of Christ.

Yes. And I know that even people from a more mainstream evangelical protestant background do even disagree on that part.

Yes much depends on how much we worship

John Calvin. He's one of my heroes but I must say of John Calvin that even like Spurgeon who was one of his successors there's no infallibility in any man that breathes and there's no theological statement that cannot be questioned.

I think that as God Christ was not peccable. You cut out brother.

I don't know what you said the after you said as God he was not peccable but then. Yes yes that's where I stopped.

I do not think that Christ could have chosen to sin.

Physically he could. Physically he could. Spiritually he could not.

He was God in the flesh. And we have a listener from Lindenhurst Long Island CJ who says

I saw a documentary on Ellen G White that seemed to clearly document to document irrefutably that Ellen White from her own words believed in vegetarianism because it was her way of diminishing the male sex drive.

Is this true? I have probably read more of Ellen White than practically every

Adventist who draws breath. I've never read that statement and I'm rather critical of programs that pretend to speak about reality of over a hundred years ago.

So I do have a question regarding the questioner's comment because I've never read anything in Ellen White that says just that.

And we also have let's see BB in Cumberland County Pennsylvania.

BB in Cumberland County asks let me have you clarify something in regard to Ellen White.

You appear to still uphold her as a great woman of God and yet she taught something that annihilated the very gospel itself.

How can you uphold her as a sister in Christ if she has done that? Yeah let me give you an example.

I'm a former Roman Catholic and although I know that there are Roman Catholics or should

I say I believe that there are Roman Catholics who are truly regenerate who

I will see in heaven but it is not because of Roman Catholic dogma. It's in spite of it and because of the fact that many

Roman Catholics do not believe either consciously or unconsciously. They do not believe in Roman Catholic dogma when it comes to justification and other crucial elements of the faith.

I cannot call a Roman Catholic that says he's faithful to Trent my brother or sister for example but those that I know who say they don't agree with Trent on justification even though they shouldn't be

Roman Catholic by saying that I have confidence I'll see them in heaven. Now how would you view not only

Ellen White or anyone else who's an Adventist who seems to eclipse the gospel or deny the gospel by believing in this investigative judgment?

I would then be tempted to deny anything they said. Ellen White in her book

Selected Messages a compilation pages 350 to 400 speaks just on the gospel and I find every line that she's written in those 50 pages agrees with the many books

I have from non -Adventist writers on justification, the gift of the spirit, the forgiveness of sins and repentance.

Chris you and I read hours a day. I've read hours a day now for 80 years from my childhood.

I've been wedded to books but we have learned when we read a book not to judge the whole book by an odd sentence or paragraph.

We must ask what is the consensus teaching of this volume, of this author?

When I look at Ellen White that way I find she was fallible. She made some mistakes.

She made some mistakes about history. She made some mistakes about theology.

She made some mistakes about conduct. But if I ask myself honestly what would be the tenor of the life that was very much guided first by scripture but secondly by those that love scripture such as Ellen White?

Ellen White's books lead to a holy life that adores

God and respects every man and woman that's been purchased by the cross of Christ.

So I cannot take an extreme view against Ellen White. By and large she was very very

Christian despite her mistakes. So basically going back to my previous question

I'm assuming then and I don't want to put words in your mouth but would you hold her with no higher esteem than I would hold an

R .C. Sproul or a John Calvin or a Charles Spurgeon? Well I'm glad you mentioned

Calvin and Spurgeon. I have been reading Spurgeon since I was a teenager.

He was a keen Calvinist but he was very careful to say not everything

Calvin said was correct. Not everything Wesley said was correct. He said

I seek for the good in both of them. So I do the same thing with every writer

I read including Ellen White. Now do I view her as more gifted than my neighbor next door or the person in the pew next to me when

I worship? Yes I do because I have found her exaltation of Christ and the gospel lifts my spirits in a way that makes me rejoice in the cross of Calvary.

But I cannot view Ellen White as a bible. I know she was is fallible.

And you believe and I'm having you repeat it of course you believe fully and unwaveringly in the inerrancy of scripture.

In the which? In the inerrancy of scripture. Oh I believe the bible is inerrant in all that it intends to teach.

When it says the sun rises and the sun sets I don't have a question about errancy there.

The sun doesn't rise and the sun doesn't set. I believe the bible is inerrant in all it intends to teach.

When it mentions the corners of the earth I do not think it's trying to teach us geography.

When it says in Genesis chapter 1 that on the fourth day God made the sun and the moon and the galaxies the stars.

Here Genesis is putting the creation of earth before the creation of the rest of the universe.

So I have to ask is the bible intended primarily to teach me science or is it meant to teach me how

I can be right with God through the cross of Christ? Yes Chris I believe in inerrancy in all the bible intends to teach.

It doesn't intend to teach the four corners of the earth. And let's see we have

RJ in White Plains New York who says have you ever been involved with the one of the oldest denominations in Christendom in the

United States which is the Seventh -day Baptist Church. I have spoken for many denominations including the

Seventh -day Baptist. I have sometimes been called upon to indicate what distinctions there are between Seventh -day

Adventist and Seventh -day Church of God and Seventh -day Baptist.

Of course the Seventh -day Baptist preceded Seventh -day Adventist. I have a great deal in harmony with Seventh -day

Baptist. And of course we have the Worldwide Church of God that went into many splits after the death of its founder

Herbert W Armstrong. That was surely a cult when he was leading it and you have the split offs.

I know of only one that has become reasonably orthodox but I think most of the others are just competing to be the most faithful heirs of Herbert W Armstrong.

Well his magazine during his lifetime, The Plain Truth, had seven and a half million readers.

His radio and TV shows, The World Tomorrow, had millions of listeners but they were listening to many human ideas.

They were not hearing the gospel of Christ. Every minister has his responsibility to preach most often on Calvary, on the forgiveness of sins, on justification by faith.

Armstrong did not do this. The Worldwide Church of God did not do this. It was cultic.

And we are going to a midway break right now and because of the fact that Grace Life Radio 90 .1

FM in Lake City Florida insists that we have a 12 -minute break between the two hours.

I hope that you're patient with us as we take an elongated break and in the meantime write some questions for Dr.

Desmond Ford on Seventh -day Adventism and more particularly the investigative judgment. And my email address to do that to send those questions in is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA. And please only remain anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable because of the fact that the question involves a personal and private matter.

Perhaps you are a Seventh -day Adventist and you don't feel comfortable identifying yourself because you're disagreeing with your congregation or your denomination or something like that.

That's completely acceptable. But if it's not personal and private please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence.

By the way I forgot to mention all of those so far who have written in questions have won a free copy of the book

Seventh -day Adventism the Investigative Judgment and the Everlasting Gospel a retrospective on October 27th 1979 by Dr.

Desmond Ford. And we thank Dr. Ford's staff for sending us these books all the way from Australia so that we can share them with listeners today who write in questions.

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We are now back with our guest, Dr. Desmond Ford, and he is a former Seventh -day

Adventist, and we are discussing Seventh -day Adventism, the investigative judgment, and the everlasting gospel.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com, chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

And we do have Harrison in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, Dr. Ford, who wants to know, what do you believe are the most dangerous things that Ellen G.

White ever wrote, even though you are, by and large, defending her? Ellen White often used secretarial help.

She was a very busy woman, and there were times in even her great books, like Great Controversy, she asked assistance to find a historical quotation or something similar to fill in.

This was done on the chapter, Investigative Judgment, and there are things in that chapter, in Great Controversy, that seem to call for perfection, that if a person died with a single sin, unconfessed, they could be lost.

Well, this is quite contrary to all that she said on the subject elsewhere, and there is good evidence that a quotation from Uriah Smith was inserted into Great Controversy there.

So the most dangerous things I see in the writings of Ellen White are very largely some insertions from people that were not always accurate, and Uriah Smith and J.

N. Andrews were especially prominent in those people who made such insertions.

Well, thank you very much, and you have also won a copy of the book that we are giving away,

Seventh -Day Adventism, the Investigative Judgment, and the Everlasting Gospel by Desmond Ford.

So please keep spreading the word, Harrison, in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania and beyond about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

I am just curious where you fall in the theological spectrum in regard to my own theology, which is

Reformed theology, or nicknamed Calvinism. I happen to be a Reformed Baptist. I believe that each church is autonomous, and the hierarchy of the church does not extend beyond the local elders, other than Jesus Christ himself, of course, and the inerrant scriptures, but as far as the earthly authority in the church, they don't pass beyond the local elders.

We believe in baptism of believers only by immersion, and after that, we would pretty much be in agreement with our conservative

Presbyterian brethren because the 1689 London Baptist Confession, which is just a summary of biblical teaching, is nearly identical to the

Westminster. Where do you fall in that area? How do you view those things? Would you call yourself a

Wesleyan Arminian? I know that you would call yourself a Biblicist most of all, but as far as the human nicknames that we give to theology, where would you fall in the spectrum?

It is my opinion, Chris, that most of the things that you have emphasized in your personal pilgrimage, particularly baptism by immersion, which is not always the way for most people of a

Reformed faith. It is so in some parts of Switzerland, in some parts of France, but in the great majority of Reformed churches,

I think it is not what you see as correct today, baptism by immersion.

I am for that. But you have not stressed what you really believe in your heart of hearts, that we can say to anyone, you need not remain a moment longer unsaved.

Believe. Receive. Look to Jesus. Don't be anxious about what

God thinks of you. Only be anxious about what he thinks of Christ. Where do I stand on the spectrum?

I believe there is error in every theological formulation, whether it is the

Westminster Confession or whether it is what is taught in a seminary

I greatly esteem and greatly honour today, the

Westminster Seminary in Philadelphia. I think that is a group of saints who make the gospel preeminent, but I am afraid

I think that there is room for some improvement even there.

Most scholars in the recent 70 years have given up on the immortality of the soul.

They read the five texts in the King James Version that uses the word immortality.

God only has immortality. Romans 2 .7, we should seek for immortality.

500 times the word is used for mortal man in the Old Testament, enos.

Never in the 1700 Hebrew and Greek references, rumour, psyche, humour, is there an adjective saying immortal, undying.

So even in groups I literally adore and honour with all my heart, like Westminster Seminary, I think there is room for improvement, as there is for Des Ford in a thousand ways.

So where do I stand? I stand as a learner, committed primarily to what is expressed in the book of Romans, what is said in 2

Corinthians 5, 14 to 21, that one died for all, then all died, that we who live should henceforth not live to ourselves, but unto him who died and lived again.

So I am very much committed to the New Testament gospel, particularly as found in its theological centres,

Romans, Galatians and Hebrews. But I cannot assent 100 % even with groups that I greatly respect.

I respect the Reformed faith because I love Calvin. God used that man.

He was a great man. But he wasn't infallible. He followed Augustine and all sorts of things.

He believed in infant baptism. The Bible doesn't have one verse about infant baptism.

Five times it talks about a household, but it's always people who believed that were baptised.

The New Testament says you believe first and then you are baptised.

So where do I stand? I stand as a fallible learner, committed fully to the gospel of John 3 .16,

Romans 3, 21 to 26, 2 Corinthians 5, 14 to 21.

I confess I am an ignoramus in a whole host of other matters.

Yeah, I would agree with that part as far as my own description of myself, as far as the ignoramus part.

I know that your daughter, by the way, this may be a pleasant surprise to many of our listeners, your daughter

Ellen is a student at Westminster Theological Seminary in Philadelphia. And loves it, and loves it, and loves the teachers.

Oh, she is overwhelmed with the Christian spirit of that college.

She loves it with a whole heart. Now, the two areas that we who are

Reformed would be most different from our Wesleyan Arminian brethren would be, of course, unconditional election and definite or particular atonement, sometimes called limited atonement.

But it is not the most popular way to describe it because so many people who are opponents of Calvinism misunderstand what we mean by limited atonement.

It's only limited in its scope, but it is unlimited in its power, in our opinion, because everyone for whom it was intended will indeed be in heaven one day.

But what is your position on those things? I am concerned about the usual teaching on predestination.

When I consider a teaching that seems to say that God passes by the majority of the people he made and consigns them to eternal misery, agony, perdition, and everlasting flames, including millions of children whom

Calvin said would be on Christ's left on the great judgment day, born in Sodom, the forecourt of hell, when

I consider the popular teaching of predestination, it seems to picture a

God I do not know, a God very unlike the good Samaritan that crossed the road to help the wounded.

The God they picture seems to be like the priest and the Levite that leaves the dying people alone.

In other words, the God of predestination, to me, seems a monstrous being, not the

God who so loved the world, who by grace desires everybody to be saved.

1 Timothy 2, 4 -6, Titus 2 .11, 1

Peter 3 .9. He doesn't want anyone to be lost. I must confess that I'm a long way from the popular view of predestination, which has

God committing most of the people he has created to burn forever and ever, including millions of children.

I hear Jesus saying, let the children come unto me, and forbid them not, for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

I think that is the biblical teaching about children, not that millions will writhe in flame of hell forever and ever.

I do not think the Bible teaches that. I'm opposed to the usual teaching on hell.

The Bible does not teach man by nature is immortal. Most scholars reject that teaching today.

I am with them. There's immortality only in Christ by faith.

In other words, just like Edward Fudge, who wrote the book, you believe that those who are among the lost will not suffer eternal torment.

You're not a universalist, though. No, I'm not a universalist.

If universalism was true, Jesus could never have said about Judas, it was good for that man that he should not have been born.

Christ killed universalism with that one statement. I agree with Ed Fudge.

The book, The Fire That Consumes, is the result of a controversy between Fudge and Robert Brinsmead, and Brinsmead said to Fudge, I will pay you week by week as you study this subject.

Fudge believed in hell, everlasting hell. He accepted

Brinsmead's challenge. He studied week after week, supported financially by Brinsmead.

He changed his mind. He wrote The Fire That Consumes that has brought peace and joy to thousands of people, and sadly,

Fudge died about two weeks ago, but I am with him. Oh, I didn't even know that Ed Fudge died a couple of weeks ago.

I had him involved many years ago in a debate on a radio station that I once worked for, and had some very friendly correspondence with him, even though I disagree with him and you on that issue.

And of course, I disagree with you on the Calvinism aspects that you disagreed with, but obviously,

I'm not going to turn today's program into a debate. I just wanted to get your opinion on it so our listeners might understand where you're coming from.

And by the way, not all Calvinists believe that infants who die in infancy will certainly be in hell, and some believe even that they will not.

Charles Spurgeon did not believe that. But the people that you mentioned are not altogether

Calvinistic, because Calvin clearly taught, I have his institutes with me,

Calvin clearly taught that some children would be like the children of Sodom, and would go to an infinite burning hell, to the glory of God.

I cannot worship and adore a God that burns forever.

Children, I hear Jesus say, let them come to me, and forbid them not of such as the kingdom of God.

So you're right, many people refuse to believe that, but Calvin did teach it.

And if you're a true Calvinist, you should teach it. Well, no Calvinist, or no one that uses that nickname that I'm aware of, believes that Calvin is inerrant, just as you don't believe

LMG White is inerrant. And so we would, like for instance, I'm a Reformed Baptist, I don't believe as Calvin did in infant baptism and other things.

Good, very good. But of course, when we're in heaven, and we are perfectly in sync with God's will, there's not going to be anybody in heaven who's horrified by anything that God does, and we're not going to be horrified by anything that he wills to do.

So, but we will have to leave that for another discussion, and perhaps a friendly debate at some point.

Certainly. But let's see, we have another listener who has a question for you.

We have John in Bangor, Maine, who says, do you believe, and this is somewhat of a repetition, a repeated question from someone else, but stated in a different way, can you count those

Seventh -day Adventists who are rejecting the true gospel because they still tenaciously hold to the investigative judgment as your brethren in Christ?

I see them as holding to pernicious errors that can do naught but damage to all to whom they communicate them, but they're also beloved of God.

Christ died for them, the Holy Spirit intercedes for them, and I pray that many of them will yet change.

At the moment, their life is a legalistic, torrent, fearful life without assurance, and I pity them, but I don't damn them.

I don't say they're lost. God may yet win them, some of them. Well, I agree with the last part, but my question, or should

I say, John in Bangor, Maine's question makes me wonder about how you could view the

Apostle Paul being just in his condemnation against the

Judaizers, because for all we know, the Judaizers agreed with Paul on everything except for justification by grace alone through faith alone, and because they insisted on circumcision, and that's the only thing we know, that the

Judaizers insisted on adding to faith, he condemned them. He said that they are to be anathema, accursed, and why would you view

Seventh -day Adventists holding to the investigative judgment in a different light than Paul would view the

Judaizers? That's very good, Chris, but I must remember that Paul so loved the erring

Jews, he said, I have great sorrow in my heart for them. I could wish myself a curse from Christ for their sake.

The beginning of Romans 9, and elsewhere in later chapters, Paul expresses great sorrow of heart for the

Jews that are pursuing righteousness by works, and Adventists that still believe in investigative judgment, they're living legalistically.

They think they can earn salvation by becoming perfect. That's impossible.

Every time I pray, I must pray, forgive me my trespasses, and so must they, so should they.

So my attitude to them is that of Paul to the Jews, where he says,

I have great sorrow in my heart for them. I could wish I had a curse from Christ for them, but he says some of them will be grafted in again.

So lots will be saved, lots will be lost. And let's see, we have

Christian in Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, who asks, have you heard of the reformed

Seventh -day Adventist movement, which is viewed by many to be more cultic because of the ultra -high position with which they hold

Ellen G. White? I know the group very well indeed.

When I was a student at Avondale in the 40s, I visited the reformed

Adventist college on the Hawkesbury, and I spent the Sabbath with them.

I felt they were wonderfully good people, but also terribly ignorant.

They looked upon Uriah Smith as almost inspired, Ellen White as almost divine.

I traveled with certain of them on a ship coming from America to Australia in the early 60s.

Beautiful people, wonderful people. But again, it seemed to me, and I am very fallible and a very sinful mortal, it seemed to me they were ignorant people.

It's not enough to be good in the 21st century, Chris. We have to learn as much as we can.

Paul says, you'll understand, and I find there are many good people that are woefully ignorant about what the

New Testament teaches, and the reformed Seventh -day Adventists are usually very ignorant people.

They were right about the war. Adventists should not have got involved in World War I the way they did.

Cowardice in Germany that had been influenced by L .R. Conradi led to the government and the reformed church largely grew out of that.

I think they were right. Christians cannot believe in most of the wars that have characterized our history.

A just war is a very rare war. And of course, the reformed

Seventh -day Adventists should not be confused with Calvinism because of the word reform. No, no, no.

Most of them would know nothing about Calvin. That is the main problem I found with them.

I found they were lovely people, but it's just as though books didn't exist. They didn't seem to know much that was written on the

Seventh -day

Adventists. They didn't seem to know much that was written on the Seventh -day Adventists. They didn't seem to know much that was written on the Seventh -day Adventists.

They didn't seem to know much that was written on the Seventh -day Adventists. They didn't seem to know much that was written on the Seventh -day Adventists. They didn't seem to know much that was written on the

Seventh -day Adventists. They didn't seem to know much that was written on the Seventh -day Adventists. They didn't seem to know much that was written on the Seventh -day Adventists. They didn't seem to know much that was written on the

Seventh -day Adventists. They didn't seem to know much that was written on the Seventh -day Adventists. They didn't seem to know much that was written on the

Seventh -day Adventists. They didn't seem to know much that was written on the Seventh -day Adventists. They didn't seem to know much that was written on the

Seventh -day Adventists. They didn't seem to know much that was written on the Seventh -day Adventists. They didn't seem to know much that was written on the

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Seventh -day Adventists. They didn't seem to know much that was written on the Seventh -day Adventists. They didn't seem to know much that was written on the Seventh -day Adventists. They didn't seem to know much that was written on the

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Day of Atonement for all Israel was fulfilled at Calvary. So the

New Testament doesn't have a line about the investigative judgment. It forbids all date -setting and I would say again that Adventism has to repent not only investigative judgment which is based on dates, 1844 to the end, but all its prophecies are wrong.

538, 1798 supposed to be the time the papacy reigned. That's not true.

The Eastern Orthodox Church never accepted the papacy. For centuries the

Emperors of Rome ruled the papacy. None of the dates that Adventists use as fulfillments of Bible prophecy are correct, not one of them.

The decree of 457 has nothing to say about the rebuilding of Jerusalem.

Every date is wrong and Christ said it's not for you to know the dates, the times and the seasons.

So the reason investigative judgment is now rejected by practically all the scholars in Adventism, by many of the ministers and many of the administrators know but are close -lipped about it, it's because the

New Testament doesn't have a line on it. It's got many lines against it. It cancels out the gospel.

The gospel says come to Christ just as you are. You don't have to reform just as you are.

Come and accept him. He'll reform you. You will be changed but you come just as you are.

You needn't for a moment, single, longer, unsaved. Whosoever will may come.

All the whosoever's of Scripture. He so loved the world. There's the big circle that whosoever believe it, that's a smaller circle that respond to the love.

But whosoever will, that's opposite to the investigative judgment. The investigative judgment says if you're perfect you may make it.

Wow, well that is obviously a obliteration of the gospel of Jesus Christ and I'm assuming the term investigative has something to do with the investigation of the obedience of we humans as to whether or not we are worthy of heaven.

Yes, yes, thank you. So they do not believe in the imputation of Christ's righteousness as the sole reason we are deemed worthy of heaven?

That's the problem with that teaching. The truth of the Bible is the moment I believe,

I receive the imputed righteousness of Christ, lock, stock and barrel, 100%.

The righteousness by which I'm saved is a hundred percent but it's not in me, it's in him.

The righteousness which is in me is sanctification but it's never a hundred percent. At glorification it'll be both in me and a hundred percent.

But until death I trust wholly in the imputed righteousness of Christ, a free gift of grace received by the hand of faith of a naked beggar.

Amen. Amen. You see we can agree on certain very important things even though you're not a

Calvinist. True, true. And the one thing that this is obviously not nearly as important as the investigative judgment, it's just something that I found curious or I found interesting and I was curious about it.

A friend of mine, the Reformed Baptist pastor, adopted children in Ukraine and while there, believe it or not, he actually stayed in the home of a

Seventh -day Adventist minister and his wife and the Seventh -day Adventist minister and the family there did not practice a vegetarian lifestyle.

Now would they be considered living in disobedience by all Seventh -day Adventists or is this more of a matter of personal conviction and preference that you have the vegetarianism?

Chris, that's an excellent question. The facts are about 40 % of Seventh -day

Adventists are not vegetarians and they sit in the same pew as their brethren who are vegetarians.

Recent scientific research has shown that people who all their lives are vegetarian have a much better chance of getting to 90 in good and vigorous health.

The world's increasing in the years of its age but not in its health. It's no good being old if you're not healthy.

I enter my 90th year in about a month's time but I feel fit as a fiddle and I think it's partly because I avoid eating anything with a face and I'm physically vigorous.

And that is something that I applaud you for but going back to whether or not it is a litmus test for obedience, what is your view on that?

I mean because obviously there are things that certain people in fact even health and fitness gurus disagree with one another on how to exercise and what to eat and they disagree on the carbs versus protein ratios and all kinds of things.

That doesn't mean that if somebody finds something that worked remarkably well for them and others that it's binding as a litmus test for genuine obedience.

How do you view that? You're quite quite right. Adventists does not have any litmus test.

It just says counsel. It's much better than the word of wisdom of the Latter -day Saints but it's not law, it's counsel.

Ellen White wrote a book Counsels on Health. She herself was not a perfect vegetarian until she got into her seventies.

Now I can say that when I visited the Seventh -day

Adventist congregation pastored by a friend of mine back in the 1990s they did have as a guest speaker a physician who was a

Seventh -day Adventist and he actually from the pulpits said he gave a story of who was obedient and who was in sin and he gave the story of three men who went out to lunch together.

One had a tuna fish sandwich and a coke. One had a salad and a coke and one had a vegetarian meal with a glass of water and only that one was living in disobedience and the other two were in disobedience and sinners.

So that obviously was a strange and unbiblical story. But that's a terrible story.

But I'm assuming not for us to decide how the other man eats and drinks but it's very important,

Chris, how you eat and drink and how I eat and drink. That's important, not the other fellow.

Amen. Well I want to make sure that you have an uninterrupted portion of this interview now to actually speak to Seventh -day

Adventist listening because I'm fairly certain there are some listening live but I'm even more certain there'll be many more who hear the recording.

I'd really like you to open up your heart, unburden your heart, and talk to them who are listening either live or by recording.

Well I have met wonderful people in every church group where I have worshipped, non -Adventists and Adventists, Catholic or Protestant.

I've met wonderful people in all of them but I have to say that during my 70 years as an

Adventist it's been a great privilege to mix with many Adventists whose religion was love, mercy, kindness, thoughtfulness.

To such people I would say pray for your leaders, jolt their elbows, ask them when are you going to come out and tell the world you're giving up everything that's contrary to the

Bible, like the investigative judgment and your date setting and your use of Ellen White in the

Bible. Go to your ministers and say why are you all the time silent on these matters?

Are you afraid you won't have bread and butter? But pray for them, but do urge upon the church that have become fully

Christian by giving away everything that's not Christian and in the meantime find out just what the gospel is.

Good, glad and merry tidings makes the heart to sing and the feet to dance.

That's the gospel. Good news, not good views. Views can be right or wrong but the good news is about someone else and it's about the past.

It's about Christ and it's about Calvary and God sees you in him on the cross.

You died with him on the cross. You were buried with him in Joseph's new tomb.

You rose on the third day in newness of life if you have faith in Jesus.

It's such a simple message. Believe and receive. The love of God is the strongest power in the universe and the essence of God according to Scripture is

God is love. Three words, so powerful, the most powerful words of Scripture but not even

Christians fully believe them. Christians say God is loving. That's not enough. God is love.

That's his essence. So believe it, teach it, live it and spread it and God bless you.

Amen. Well how do you respond to those those in apologetics who are either former

Adventists or just non -Aventists, never were actually a member of the Seventh -day Adventist Church, who are saying that the

Seventh -day Adventist Church is not only a cult but they do teach a false

Christ. That there is something about the the nature of Christ himself that is a false

Christ in that group which they would deem a cult. How do you respond to that group of Christians who obviously are not trying to be nasty and mean -spirited or hateful, not all of them anyway, but who have a burden for the souls of men and do not want to see men damned, whether you believe in eternal conscious punishment or not.

Someone who is being denied eternal life with Christ is a horrific notion.

So people do speak on these things very often with great compassion and love, not hatred.

But if you could let us know why are they wrong about that? Well such people have my sympathy.

I know many fine Christians who have just that attitude to Seventh -day

Adventism and it's usually based on their experience. Very often with some administrators who had little tact and no love.

And it's also based on their knowledge of early teachings of Adventist about Christ having a sinful nature.

And it's above all based on their experience of being taught from a child that one day their name would come up in a judgment in heaven.

And if there was one slip, one failure, one wrong word, one wrong thought, one wrong deed, they were done for.

So it's such people who speak that way about Adventism have my sympathy. I know many great people among them who looking back see so many things that hurt them and so many things that were wrong.

But I have to remind them that whatever church they go to, whatever church,

Catholic or Protestant, they will find wrong things. They will find wrong people.

They will find wrong beliefs. Only in Jesus is there a hundred percent truth and a hundred percent love and righteousness.

Now you were just apparently implying or outright saying that the investigative judgment also requires a belief in sinless perfectionism,

I'm assuming. I mean it sounded that way. Yes. The way it is written up in great controversy, not the other statements of Ellen White, but the paragraphs she borrowed or one of the secretaries borrowed from Uriah Smith was sinless perfectionism.

And that's not biblical and it's very bad news and it's opposite to the good gospel.

This man receives sinners. He's going to be guest with the him that's a sinner. Hey, that's me.

That's you, Chris, and he's our guest. Yes, it's amazing that anyone could think who had any awareness of their own life and mind and heart, any, obviously nobody knows their own heart even fully, but anybody who has even any kind of level of knowledge about themselves, how they could believe sinless perfectionism is a possibility on this earth and how there could be even a great host in heaven one day that achieved this on earth.

It's just, it's staggering to me, to my mind. It is staggering. James 3 in verse 2 says, in many things we all offend.

Note three things. Many, many things. We all, that's you and me and the people next door, offend, break the law of God.

In many things we all fall short, but this man receives sinners.

Now, obviously, there is a truth behind this. The one truth is that if you do commit the slightest sin that you will go to hell if you do not have the imputed righteousness of Christ.

If you are trusting in your own goodness, if you are rejecting Christ and his redemptive death on Golgotha, you are indeed going to go to hell for even the slightest sin, but where they are deadly wrong and heretical is when they think that a human could achieve this without the imputed righteousness of Christ.

Chris, two things. The majority of New Testament scholars and Old Testament scholars reject the traditional views of hell.

Still cherished in some wonderful churches, but the majority of exegetes from Scripture have rejected hell.

Secondly, the Bible about sin has two types, sins of ignorance and presumptuous sins.

Sins of ignorance we're guilty of every day. We do lots of things that falls short of the perfect standard of God every day.

That's a sin of ignorance. A presumptuous sin is when I willfully, persistently step over the line of righteousness and that can endanger my soul forevermore.

And in regard to your eschatology, because that I know from reading your biography or your biographical sketch

I should say, not a full published biography, but from reading your biographical sketch that eschatology is something that has been a primary focus in your life.

Can you summarize what that eschatology would be? And is it far from any of the major eschatological views that are held within evangelical

Protestantism such as amillennial, postmillennial, historic premillennial and dispensational?

The type of eschatology I believe holds the reins today among scholars is not dispensationalism.

Dispensationalism has been dropped by most people of scholarly bent who've investigated it.

My emphasis in eschatology is he that hath the Son hath life. He that hath not the

Son hath not life. He that hears my word and believes on him that sent me has everlasting life, has passed from death unto life and shall not know condemnation.

I do believe in the nearness of the second coming of Christ. I believe Revelation 20 teaches two resurrections.

The first resurrection only being of the righteous and the second resurrection being of the lost.

I said to FF Bruce when he was my tutor at Manchester, do

I need to write a chapter in my dissertation on Revelation 20 about two real resurrection?

He said no, that battle is over. Perhaps he was wrong but I have written on the subject in my book

Crisis. As regards biography there is a biography of me by Milton Hook.

What's it called? Oh it's just Desmond Ford I think but that's the biography that's gone around the world by Milton Hook and it tells the real story of what has happened in the last 50 years but my eschatology is simple.

John 14 1 to 3. You believe in God believe also in me.

I go to repair a place for you. If I go and prepare a place for you I will come again and receive you unto myself.

1 Thessalonians 4. Sorrow not as those that have no hope. If we believe

Jesus died and rose again, the voice of the Archangel, the dead in Christ shall rise first.

So it's a very simple eschatology found on 1 Corinthians 15, 1

Thessalonians 4, Matthew 24, John 14. What about, and forgive me if you said this and it flew over my head, but what about the view that many, if not all, pre -millennialists believe that there will be a physical thousand -year reign of Christ bodily present on earth before the final things to come.

Thank you. Thank you for bringing that up Chris. FF Bruce wrote a commentary on Revelation, one of the

Bible commentaries that are available to anybody, and he says it should be noted that this chapter,

Revelation 20, says nothing about a reign on earth. So my eschatology is that he comes and as it says in 1

Thessalonians 4, we're caught up with him into the air. We spend the millennium in heaven because Revelation 20 pictures the earth becoming a desolate waste like it was before the creation of Genesis 1.

So no, I do not believe in a millennium on earth and I know no passage of Scripture that teaches it.

So you believe though in a future tribulation on earth when these saints... Yes, just before Jesus comes.

Yes. And it will be, in your opinion, a literal thousand years. Yeah, well, it could be a figurative number, but I don't know any alternative number.

That's the only number that's ever given regarding it. By the way, I want to let you know that I bought my first car at Desmond Ford in West Babylon, Long Island.

I'm just kidding. And I want you to, we're running out of time,

I want to make sure that you really now not only include the Seventh -day Adventist in your comments, but to all of our listeners,

I want you to declare what you most want etched in their hearts and minds before the program is over.

Believe that God loves you no matter what. Believe that God loves you if you've committed the same sin for the 500th time.

Believe that your guilt is cancelled the moment you understand the cross of Christ.

And until guilt is gone, the power of sin remains. If sin remains a power in your life, it's because you haven't lost the guilt.

You lose the guilt when you believe Jesus died for you. Don't tell the world

Christ died for the world. Go to every man and say, Christ died for you. If you can say, rock of ages, cleft for the world, it won't impress many people.

But with undried eyes and a shaking voice, you can say, rock of ages, cleft for me.

You will help somebody. And dear friend, whatever your present estate, however many your failures, you're not worse than the thief on the cross.

And he received the assurance that very day that he'd be with Christ in paradise.

That assurance is for you if you look to Jesus now with the eye of faith.

Receive him. Believe him. Amen. And by the way, your quotation of rock of ages fell completely,

I think, perfectly in alignment with my belief in definite atonement. So there was no argument from me there, brother.

And I'm sorry, brother? Toplady. Yes. It was written by Toplady. Yes.

Who I think was a Calvinist. Yes. And well, I want to make sure that our listeners have all of the information that you want them to have.

For instance, I know that the website for Good News Unlimited is goodnewsunltd .org.

That's good news and the abbreviation for Unlimited, unltd .org. Is there any other contact information that you care to share?

Well, they should keep in mind, I've written more than 30 books, and many of these are available through Amazon.

My latest book is on the demise of Darwinism. It's called Genesis versus Darwinism, and that can be gotten from Amazon.

So if they use their computer and look up Good News Unlimited or Desmond Ford, they'll find abundant information in every area they seek it.

And they also can get on Amazon the book that we gave away today, Seventh -day

Adventism, Investigative Judgment, and the Everlasting Gospel. Is there anything that I failed to ask you about before we go off the air, about that very serious heresy, the

Investigative Judgment? Before we go off the air, I want to make sure that there was no stone unturned.

Chris, you've been very tolerant, very charitable, very kind to a sinner, and I say thank you for canvassing the subject so ably and well.

I think everyone who's heard the two hours will have gotten the heart of it. Amen. Well, I thank you very much.

I look forward to your return in the future, Dr. Ford, to our program, and I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who wrote in questions.

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.