Dead Men Walking Podcast with The Liberator Podcast from Free The States: Pro-Life or Abolitionist?

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00:13

Well, hello everyone, welcome back to another episode of dead men walking. I'm your host Greg into my left.

00:18

I have Jason Jason How are you, sir? What's up, brother? How you doing, man? Doing awesome. Yeah, you have a good week had an awesome week

00:25

I turned 40. Whoa Happy birthday, brother woke up with arthritis in a bad back.

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Oh Man, got dad jokes all the time all day So the big 4 -0 dude, it was awesome.

00:39

Yeah, I had some good times with some friends and Yeah, you were there one night

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I was there we went all seven days of the week baby. Oh you did multi night Yeah, man, I just went after it.

00:50

Wait a minute. No, I'm just joking. I didn't at all. I was in bed at 8 o 'clock I'm not even gonna lie. So you went all week and your co -host was only invited to one night for the party

00:57

Hey, man, I like you, but But only for one night a week You take me one time a week.

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That's it to hate tonight, man. Most people on this podcast. Most people tell me that oh My gosh, well,

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I'm excited tonight because we have some guys on the podcast That I'm excited to have on.

01:16

Yeah, you know we so here's what happened. We had someone we posted a an audio clip of Abby Johnson, I believe it was she'd been on the podcast on three four weeks ago and Someone who's a friend of mine on Instagram tagged me and then tagged these guys

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The Liberator podcast from Free the States and they said hey What do you think about this kind of one of these things and actually the guy who tagged me said hey

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I used to be in the pro -life movement, but not after I really got into it and looked at it I'm an abolitionist.

01:44

I went why I know what I think I know what an abolitionist is. I've heard that word, right? No, I was homeschooled.

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Mm -hmm. We were talking about that stuff at home. Yeah, you know the important stuff They didn't say we're talking about the important.

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They didn't send me to roll at school My kids didn't said my mom and dad didn't send me to Rome. All right, so But then

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I started listening to these guys podcasts I started checking out their website and I realized yeah,

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I think I think that's the name for me I just have never called myself that right, you know, cuz obviously we have

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Luke Pearson on from red state Yeah form we've had Durbin on Jeff Durbin from apology or radio those guys Marcus Pittman Marcus Pittman and although and abortion now and we go.

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Wow, we really line up with them or what they're doing You know, we put Luke in contact with our leaders here in Lansing at the

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Capitol for some of the stuff He does and I thought we should have these guys on And just have you know, some bros sitting around talking about a really serious subject

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Which I think what is a podcasting is all about so I'm excited to have them on I we have on James Sam T.

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Russell Hunter from liberator podcast fellows. How are you guys doing? I'll tell you what give us a little two to three minute intro of what you guys do

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Then we're gonna jump into some newsy and then after that we'll get into the meat of the podcast

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Yeah, so we are free the states we are basically we're a lobbying organization

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So we go up to the Capitol and we deliver memos and we show up to committee hearings and all that stuff and do all the stuff that lobbyists do but I would say

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Like the main our main objective really is waking up the church So everything we do whether it's podcasting articles showing up to hearings and live streaming or whatever.

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It's all about Helping the church see that this is an issue The church should be dealing with and that they should be dealing with it in a way that conforms to the way that God's Word Instructs us to remove evils from society

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And so yeah so our project is is abolishing abortion is encouraging the church to take her rightful place on the front lines of the battle to abolish abortion and To do so in a way that is honoring to God and his word and the reason that we are focused on the church, even though we're a legislative lobbying organization because we're abolitionists and as abolitionists we

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Believe that the gospel is the answer to the abortion Holocaust and that goes for the answer for individuals

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Facing the temptation of abortion, but it's also the answer for communities culture states The reason we're called free the states.

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You're like what? Okay, why are you called free the states? Our belief is generally that the states in the

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United States of America Possess sovereignty to criminalize abortion within their borders and if they're not allowed to abolish abortion within their borders, they are not free.

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So The idea would be to free their free the states one by one from their participation in the abortion

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Holocaust And that requires yes legislation the enforcement of that legislation

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But because this is the United States of America, that's the we the people sort of thing

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We have to lobby the culture lobby the people to support abolition so that a state can sort of extricate themselves from Being a part of this massive

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Holocaust Awesome, and we're gonna get into a little bit about the definition of an abolitionist and things like that But first we just want to get into two quick news stories that we came across this week

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Jason What do you think a little news? I Was just dancing like Mick Jagger, sorry.

05:23

Oh beautiful. Anyway, what do we got? Here we go So Greg, I didn't know if you knew about this, but Arizona Education Department encourages talking to babies about Racism Oh baby.

05:36

Yeah babies now says three -month -olds can be racist I didn't know if you knew that or not.

05:42

Wait a minute. What? Yeah, so check this out The Arizona Department of Education has purportedly created an equity toolkit that teaches parents how children as young as three months can develop racial bias and encourages parents and teachers to talk to young children about race and Yeah, so here we are 2021 you know they say that three months three months old

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Yeah Kidding no, that's not the Christian response. How dare we

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I mean, this is This is getting insane insane. I know when we say when we went over white fragility the book by gosh already

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Talk about total depravity Absolutely brothers because I mean here such an agenda being pushed down people's throats and not only that but the total depravity like Like James just said

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I mean we're saying three three months three months old. Yeah, talk about racism I have a baby.

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Yeah, and yeah, she she's a very nice little very nice little girl She's a very nice little yeah, baby.

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Absolutely. And uh, yeah, there's there's nothing inside of her. That is anything like that. Yeah Look at I'm not saying we're not to pray for the minute.

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We're born, right? Right. Exactly Here's the thing. Here's the thing that they want, you know

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It's movement the cultural Marxist the you know the the equal for all not in stature, but you know in Playing field and all that that is an agenda that they're trying to get from.

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Yeah. I mean that really is yeah, it's the same thing with public schools to indoctrinate from birth and How can you even talk to a three -month -old about I have no idea, but they have a tool kit

07:24

They have a tool kit. So we might need to get one of those Ice cream only chocolate ice cream

07:31

No. All right. What else we got? Okay, so after this we have a this this this story is

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One of confusion from the get so this is gonna lead us into our discussion.

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I'm sure we were talking about earlier. Yeah, so Evangelicals for Biden. Hey About these guys over the summer.

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We read their letter. We did I think we hammered on him pretty hard. Oh, yeah So they feel used and betrayed by Biden fulfilling his radical abortion promises

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Yeah, so I'd tell you what orange man was so bad.

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We vote for Biden. We can't we can't have mean tweets though, right? No mean tweets anymore So here we are

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Here's part of their letter, okay, we are very disappointed about the kovat 19 relief package exclusion of the

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Hyde Amendment a long -standing bipartisan policy that prevents taxpayer funding for abortion we're even more upset that the

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Biden administration is supporting this bill as pro -life Lee in the Evangelical community.

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Yeah the pro -life. Sorry. That's just cringe. Yes just cringed for sure I'm reading

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Right, yeah, so we publicly Yeah, right so they're saying we publicly supported

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President Biden's candidacy with the understanding that there would be a Engagement with us on the issue of abortion didn't include us

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Oh man, and particularly the Hyde Amendment We feel used and betrayed and have no intention of simply watching these kinds of efforts

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Happen from the sidelines. Oh, thank you. So, oh my gosh, please everyone listening go back to our podcast

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And when was it July August when we talked about this exactly and you and I said the exact same thing We said look at there's you guys are complete idiots

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If you think that Biden or that what whoever's running the administration cares at all what you think about equality or The state of Christianhood or a biblical worldview the the first minute they get to do what their depraved minds want to do

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They're gonna do it. Yeah, and now and here we are. They're writing a harshly letter to the president.

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How dare you? I know James Sam T. Russell. What do you guys think about that? Kind of a hard one to be shocked by right?

10:03

Yeah. Well, I mean the thing is is that We don't really care about the

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Hyde Amendment. It's not something that like losing Bothers us we think that it's pretty much weak sauce, you know

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Hey the response of the pro -life movement in America and pro -life president even whenever they have

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All the congressional power and the Supreme Court is to defund or Overseas I mean, it's it's such a weak ineffective thing that you know losing it.

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I'm like well It was it was always this sort of thing that pro -lifers like bandy about during presidential

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Election season like we've got to elect this president. So he'll uphold the Hyde Amendment looks like Well, no, we should elect a president who should criminalize abortion, right?

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and When these pro -life presidents, you know Campaign as pro -lifers and pass something like the

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Hyde Amendment and everyone celebrates them They're channeling all that energy and support that would go for backing a president who would allow states to criminalize abortion instead they celebrate a president for just upholding the

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Hyde Amendment, so Funding issue because pro -lifers put a lot of their effort into getting national ban on funding for Planned Parenthood I think that you know when we put our effort into that sort of thing

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It actually deadens your conscience towards abortion. It makes it so yes

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Have a holocaust but don't do it with my money. You know, that's sort of what the call turns into So things like that protecting the

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Hyde Amendment or putting all of our effort in trying to get deep funding it makes it something where it becomes very deadening to the souls of the country because we're actually

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Tolerating and participating in the murder of children. We're saying yes murder children.

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Don't do it with our money. Keep it out of the budget And congratulating them actually as though they've done something good when what they've done is

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Far less than what they ought to do as a at a minimum level as governing authorities

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It's like we we say that we're pro -life and that we believed in the sanctity and dignity of life so the president can stand up in front of a bunch of March for life people and say that children are made in in the image of God and they can

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Wow most pro -life president ever yet the

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Link to which he goes is just to keep his own wallet for the wallets of his people clean It's like yeah, something something screwy here way less than what we want and what we could get if we would stop supporting these lesser measures

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And with all that said obviously that's you know, that's like a high demand funding thing parent. It all is going for what we're

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Something that we would be would care all that much about but it is there is something pretty amazing about about pro -lifers for Biden being

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Somehow shocked or for pretending to be shot I don't know whether they're actually shocked or if they're just pretending to be shot right because I don't know how anyone

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Not pro -lifers like they would have just been calling themselves evangelicals, but they weren't even really Right.

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I didn't know the evangelicals for Biden were like actually Master of fuller seminary

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Which may have been where Greg McCourtney went and Greg McCourtney the guy who?

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Okay, so yeah, I mean sorry for the multi -level response It's just kind of like one of these things where it's like, are we shocked do we care?

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yeah, kind of like yeah, we do but we don't we don't I mean what might be shocking to some of your ears is that regardless of whether you have a

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Republican pro -lifer in the White House or a Liberal Democrat and regardless of the high demand and all that kind of stuff a million babies are murdered every year in the

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United States of America and the stats don't change Whether you have a Republican or a Democrat, right?

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Every time you vote for a pro -life Republican or a pro -choice Democrat abortion remains legal

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It's just you've got someone with a moral opinion of being pro -life in the White House, but it has no effect and part of it too is that Philosophy is to get enough

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Republican presidents They'll get enough Republican appointed justices to the Supreme Court and eventually we'll be able to overturn

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That's the only way that we're going to be able to abolish abortion. The problem is back in 1992

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We had the perfect court setting we had eight Republican appointed justices and one pro -life

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Democrat It was the one who voted against Roe v. Wade in the first place and now and even at that point they doubled down on Roe v.

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Wade So the best possible situation that we could have had Using the presidency and using the

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Supreme Court justices as appointees, we still fail So it's just a something

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I care that they dangle in front of the pro -lifers just to get them to keep voting for them But they have no intention of actually

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Isn't isn't Roe v. Wade just a suggestion? I mean, it's not really Something that the states have to listen to right?

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Yeah, what's an opinion? You know, yeah, we would say that anything that is that violates the law of God and the

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United States Constitution is null and void by its nature, right and so any court or Legislature or executive anywhere anytime any place in the universe who says you can murder babies and it's totally legal

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We think that's null and void by its nature Yeah, and so it's like the Supreme Court has no role whatsoever but it is to say that there are limits on their power and if they go outside it and make like Invent a right to murder children that the state should be a check right the people talk about, you know

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Define the Supreme Court as if it's crazy radical, you know They think or he's wild with people but they're supposed to be checks and balances

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Right, and so all we're all we're calling for is the states to be a check on what is clearly an unconstitutional opinion of the

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Supreme Court I'm fish. This should have absolutely no force of law It was notification

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Was thought to be a natural right of the state to define when something was in violation of the

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Constitution That's why legislators actually swear an oath to uphold the Constitution Not Supreme Court opinion because everyone is an interpreter.

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It's not like the Supreme Court is the pope Definitely wouldn't listen to him. Anyway, every single person comes to the table and interprets and they have the job

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Yeah Like they any nullify or about to decriminalize the distribution of alcohol marijuana the good

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Gonzales the rates of important in 2005 But yeah,

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I mean the Supreme Court make that ruling they look at and they go well that's your opinion

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But here in our state, we're going to sell marijuana And they just do it so nullification is something that you know people do

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But we don't we don't see it from pro -life states What we see instead is this sort of pro -life industry mechanism getting in the way where it's like no

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No, we don't nullify the Supreme Court We use the carrot of nominating

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Supreme Court justices to elect pro -life presidents and then we wait for the Supreme Court To over overturn row or repeal row and then give the state permission to abolish abortion

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Yeah, and they teach everybody like Abby Johnson says that abolishing abortion at the state level is unconstitutional

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Which is probably where the controversy comes in Absolutely isn't and I would say you guys know if you've done any type of lobbying

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I'm an elected official in my state I was a legislative liaison at my capital and I also worked on national campaigns the pro -life

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Subject is merely used for political gain every single Republican and Democrat Libertarian independent

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I haven't I've met very few elected officials on national tickets that don't use

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The subject of abortion and the pro -life movement either for or against to either raise money punt the ball down the field

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Move the goalposts a little bit longer to stay in office a little bit longer. I mean you guys know how this works I mean you get the votes get the votes and then go, you know, hey look at yeah

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I voted this way But look at we got Planned Parenthood limited from 500 million to 200 million dollars in funding

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Give me a right to life a plus rating because I did something, you know

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Yeah, and then it means nothing though. It means nothing. You're on you go ahead. I Legislation These people that get a hundred percent pro -life approval ratings from nationalized life

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Oklahoma's for life the subsidiaries and so on and so forth Not only do the things like defunding or decreasing abortion funds or something like that.

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They also kill bills of abolition They work actively to make sure that states don't assert their sovereignty don't nullify don't criminalize abortion

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So that instead of that they can continue to have incremental victories so you always have all these incremental victories and that keeps that like the

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Political thing that you're talking about like it's always there and if you if you had a state that really abolished abortion

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What would that guy? Use as his social issue to distinguish himself from the liberal.

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He's running nothing Yeah, really nothing more if you're Republican or Democrat. No, I Think that's a good tie -in for why abolitionists, you know

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Because we have a bunch of pro -life organizations that have been set up and they fundraise off of Supposedly stopping abortion and so we find it very important that we actually draw that Change our language and say no we are something else.

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We're not like the pro -life movement. We're not part of the pro -life movement We are not pro -life. We're abolitionists because ultimately, you know, we can't have this kind of adversarial type of relationship with the pro -lifers and Put ourselves underneath that same camp

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We think that we need to shift the paradigm to no longer be pro -life and to be abolitionists and get the

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Legislature to understand that because they may not like our ideas But they understand both and if we can shift the voters to identifying with abolitionists and knowing what that means

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Then the legislators are going to have to change their behavior. We're seeing that now. We've actually had to Two legislators who have been elected completely on abolitionist platforms and they won with flying colors.

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It was it was really crushing The example what they're talking about so there were we had a bunch time for the state legislature here in Oklahoma the last time around last

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November and in the primaries last June and What what we saw was that national rights alike and Oklahomans for life made a special point can painting or the pro -life

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Republicans who were facing challenges from abolition Criminalize abortion and those bills would inevitably make their defunding bills look weak

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Yeah, and so and so one of the things they were they were talking about is, you know They're saying Greg McCourtney is 100 % pro -life and then you know, not national right to life approved

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Oklahoma's for life approved And yeah, so just back to what Sam is saying. You can't like out pro -life like national rights

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But you know, you've got to just kind of draw a line and say okay you guys have that we're abolitionists And you draw that line of demarcation so that people are able to tell here are the abolitionist candidates.

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Here's the pro -life Yeah, here are the abolition bills here the pro -life Here's abolition ideas pro -life ideas You've got to draw that line

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So the people know who to pull the lever for when it comes time until people know who does Which which bill is to support when it comes time to support bills and stuff?

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It's not infighting that's the people always talk about like abolitionists is that we're causing infighting.

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It's not infighting We're on the opposite side like the pro -life movement and the pro -choice

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Movement believe that whenever the Supreme Court says is law. Yeah Maybe I disagree with them.

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That's a different time So some listeners who you know might not be familiar with with the divide here might sound a little bit callous of us

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Me and james are both in the pro -life movement. I was in the pro -life movement for five years I worked full -time as a pro -lifer. Um, my when

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I became an abolitionist my former boss Uh told me that he saw abolitionists as the enemy and the cancer and so It's very clear what the pro -life movement thinks of abolitionists

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And then my my former my former colleague Austin by he actually got fired from that organization for attending an abolitionist conference

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So the animosity as far as like who's willing to talk we're willing to talk to them They're not willing to talk to us.

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They stopped engaging us because they don't like our ideas It's not about whether abolitionists are mean or anything like that because a lot of people say that um

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But they just don't like our ideas like james is one of the nicest abolitionists He'll ever be to be engaged with people and they just shut down when they hear

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Oh, you're saying that it's wrong to say that it's okay to kill babies in these circumstances with my legislation

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Yeah, that's that's what we believe. We think it's wrong to write legislation. That is iniquitous It is saying to the legislature and to the people you can kill babies as long as you do a b

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We think that's wrong I wouldn't say that i've a massive platform when I blast that out to everybody by saying here's a bill that says how to kill

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Yeah, so just to backtrack real quick and then we'll get into the next question. So everyone list for everyone listening uh

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James sam or t russell, what is your definition of abolitionist then? What's the simple one or two sentence definition that someone can take away with them?

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Someone who works for the the total and immediate abolition of abortion For the glory of jesus christ and by the power of his word and spirit, yeah, awesome.

23:50

There you go We're speaking. We're just trying to Get the laws against murder to be equally applied to all people

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So if you say what an abolitionist seeking not necessarily to reduce abortion numbers by regulation

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But to take the laws that are presently against murder for foreign people and apply them equally to unborn people

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So it's full equal treatment under the law No partiality Nothing that makes any fatherless child pray.

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And so yes, that's uh Yeah, that's quite a dividing line. Actually. I've always wondered about that.

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I mean whenever a a woman that is pregnant, um Is shot or killed or whatever and that's a double homicide, you know that when she's pregnant

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I mean like what you know, how how can that even get through the courts? You know that that's that's what that is that is murder right there like you

24:42

Yeah, two lives right there because mothers in america have been given the positive right to terminate their

24:51

Babies in the womb and this is another defining line right here too because the pro -life movement and the pro -choice movement

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Both believe that women and men who commit abortion should not be criminalized for that act just to have immunity

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Abolitionists believe in equal protection. So we think that anyone involved in the murder of a child should be punished, right?

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And that's because ultimately it's because we're not showing partiality towards people who are murdering So a lot of people will say that's good for being cruel to women or something like that But ultimately the pro -life movement has a very low view of women

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They're not looking at them as moral agents who can understand that when they're pregnant They have a baby inside of them and ultimately abortion is the ultimate act the ultimate anti -gospel act

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It is saying instead of jesus christ coming and living and dying for my sins and taking them away from me willingly

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It's the baby must die for my sins and they are the ones who are going to put give the ultimate sacrifice

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It's you sacrifice for me and i'm going to force you to do it. Um, not christ came and sacrificed himself

25:50

So it totally turns the gospel on its head and it is really one of the most evil things that can possibly happen

25:56

Well, there's a couple Sorry Yeah, i was going to say as an example of what you were talking about in here in oklahoma

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Uh, like like the state the state murder codes. It says Like homicide is the killing of one human being potential killing one human being by another this includes an unborn child

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And then that's and that's part part b and then part c says except for illegal abortion So you you can't kill a child in any situation

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But if you're the mother taking a child to an abortionist then yeah And that is that's in the murder codes across wow

26:30

Like you basically see no one they're not actually as delusional and stupid as they pretend. They all go

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Yes, we know that it's killing a pre -born human being in the room But roe v wade ruled that within the right of privacy

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Mothers have the right to do this and so abolitionists are like no They don't have the right to do this pre -born children have the right to life and Nobody in america has a special murder privilege

26:56

And so when we write the language or we support bills or projects ideas, it's specifically to challenge that correct

27:05

Well, there's so much constitutionality going on there, too Even if you want to argue within that obviously we would argue from a biblical worldview as presuppositionalist

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But we would also say you can even you can even argue Uh constitutionally you mentioned before t russell too like the women have been giving a positive right to murder

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And it's actually canceling out the negative right the government has to protect The the pursuit of happiness the right to life and all those things mentioned in the general welfare clause of the constitution

27:33

So you see this weird constitutional thing going on where we we have people and then even the 14th amendment

27:40

Oh my gosh, the state sovereignty. We're all sucking off the federal government's teat

27:45

So, you know these states are so they give up all these rights and freedoms And instead we can legalize marijuana in multiple states and override a class one federal schedule

27:57

For marijuana that the federal government says it's not okay but for abortion a lot of these state legislatures let

28:03

Legislators, excuse me say no, but we can't because we have roe vs wade and I think it goes back a roe v wade

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I think it goes back to falling back on incremental Uh, you know wins for the politician.

28:14

I mean I work around politicians all day I know you guys do too, you know how they think and how is that helping the pro -life movement at all?

28:21

um, so I would say as christ followers, like How do we let's say you have a listener right now and they go?

28:27

What are you talking about? I'm in the pro -life movement. I'm i'm on the sidewalk or i'm at a pregnancy center. I'm trying to help moms

28:33

I'm trying to help babies who are these abolitionist guys come in and saying, you know, what i'm doing is wrong

28:38

Like what do you say to them who maybe I don't want to use the word brainwash. Maybe that's a strong word Maybe it isn't But but someone who's been in that and goes well, why should

28:47

I look at it indoctrinated? Indoctrinated is there a biblical worldview for abolitionism? Yeah, so I think that one thing that we do need to state is the regular pro -life person that's just out there like They just grew up.

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They're christian. They're trying to love their neighbors as themselves including the pre -born neighbors And they've never heard of any of this stuff.

29:05

They don't really know what the pro -life leaders lobbyists Politicians, you know president they don't know exactly what they believe or what they actually do

29:15

They just know it is being sold to them. And so they think that the pro -life

29:21

Establishment is seeking to abolish abortion. They like have this thought um, so we're not trying to be sort of um,

29:29

Dismissive of people with good motives Taking good actions to love their pre -born neighbors

29:36

Now that being said a lot of them because of indoctrination do

29:41

Kind of hold some of those pro -life ideas as they come from top down. Yeah, so you will run into pro -lifers who um

29:49

May after you tell them hey What about just treating abortion as murder in defiance of roe v wade and a state asserting their sovereignty and doing that?

29:58

They'll be like, yeah, i'm on board but because they've had 40 years of being told the way to do that is

30:06

Electing pro -life presidents who appoint supreme court justices. We do have to sort of correct that stuff like well

30:12

No, that's not the way you do it. You can actually challenge supreme court rulings That's the way that anyone does anything to really change anything in this culture whether you're talking about Marriage or marijuana or anything like that.

30:22

We need to have a much more assertive opinion But we can usually move the pro -life

30:29

Christian to abolition by simply saying okay. Here's what we believe. Here's the bills we support

30:36

Compare them to the bible Tell us whether it's biblical or not And then here's a pro -life bill

30:43

That says you can't dismember a baby with forceps, but you can dismember a baby with a suction apparatus

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And you can dismember a baby if they were conceived and raped Compare that to the bible and tell me whether that's biblical.

30:55

Yeah, I just think it's specific here as well I think you know if you if you were to look at uh, for instance romans 1 it talks about the uh,

31:01

You know the man who's been given over to sin It talks about how not only does he give approval or not only does he murder but he gives approval to those

31:11

Um when we talk about pro -life legislation, that is the definition of giving approval to murderers

31:17

It is saying to them here is an explicit Here's an explicit statement in the law the thing that's supposed to protect these pre -born babies

31:24

How we are going to allow you to murder a child is giving approval to a murderer and it's you know

31:30

Tying your hand on that. It's it's compromising. Yeah, but then beyond that we're you know, we're told that isaiah Quotes those who decree iniquitous decrees um

31:37

Someone could argue that pro -life bills are less iniquitous than But they can't argue that they're not iniquitous because a heartbeat bill

31:45

Only protects babies after they have a beating heart if the heart is protected by the abortionist

31:52

Right. Yeah, right Like totally ineffective on the one hand and then wrong on the other it's saying

31:58

This is not a human being until they have a heartbeat And as an example of the consequences of that compromise

32:03

I I was in ohio and I was working for the pro -life group there. I met with my state senator

32:08

He was a pro -life hero He was a guy who championed the heartbeat bill there for six or seven years before it finally passed and i'm meeting with his aide

32:15

And i'm telling her hey, here's what an abolition bill looks like. Here's why we need one in ohio Um, and at the end of at the end of my little spiel she she looked at me

32:22

She says well, this is all interesting, but it's senator brenner's personal religious conviction that life begins at a heartbeat

32:28

Right. Now, where does someone get just a crazy and really evil idea like that, right? You get something like that from championing the heartbeat bill for so long

32:37

So you begin to internalize the arguments you're making and you begin to think that's what makes a human being valuable

32:42

Because that's what the law i'm putting forward says. That's what makes even being valuable So eventually you begin to internalize and actually believe the compromises that you're that you're defending

32:51

You run into the ladies at abortion mills that say my baby's not going to feel any pain You know, like where'd you learn that right they're pro -life youth pastor or whatever

33:01

What are you guys? Uh, i've ran into this conversation quite a bit. Um, uh, just since we've been doing these shows

33:08

I mean, I think this is our what fifth or sixth abortion, uh show that we had a wide range. Yeah.

33:13

Yeah, we've activists Yeah, yeah. Um, uh, but i've i've tended to get answers from people in the christian community that are just like Oh, well, they even if they uh abolish it, uh, you know, they're people are still gonna do it, you know, and it's like like What are you talking like?

33:32

Okay. Yeah, I mean, so we just turn our cheek and just let them do it Like what are you saying? Let's not have any laws then, right?

33:38

Right? Yeah Yeah, yeah, right yeah exactly

33:45

That's a big part of why our emphasis isn't on reducing abortion numbers. Our emphasis is on justice

33:51

That's what god is interested in. Amen. He's interested in a society that actually punishes evil doers for doing evil

33:57

Uh, we we run into legislators. Sometimes we'll say things like, you know, if jesus has forgiven opposed abortive women

34:03

Why should we punish them? Well the exact same thing if if jesus has forgiven someone who is a pedophile

34:08

Yeah, should we punish the pedophile? Right? Yes. Yeah, because that's the role of government

34:14

That's what they're supposed to do and make another thing about it. If you criminalize abortion and did establish justice

34:19

Yes, there would still be people who broke the law just like there's still people who murder born people

34:24

But it would be far less Yeah, and and when they did it there would be the fear of the law right and that tutoring that happens

34:33

And then and the young men and women growing up would would be hearing over and over and over again abortion is murder

34:39

It's against the law. Yeah, and so they are less likely going to pursue that Because law does have that positive effect.

34:46

That's why god instituted the government, right? Well, what's really interesting about that too is just a quick anecdote

34:52

We have some a bunch of friends in ireland northern ireland. They have uh, you know, they had a situation where um

34:58

Criminal act for a long time And they all had the understanding that abortion was murder And then all these pro -lifers from america start coming into ireland telling them how they need to campaign

35:08

And they're telling them things like don't call it murder It was like they had this understanding because the law was teaching them something and then they start

35:16

Lobbying for something that's totally not like they start arguing for it in ways that are actually going to kill their movement to abolish

35:23

They're going to make it harder for them Yeah, yeah. No, it's it's so crazy to me.

35:28

Uh that we that The conversation can come to an end so quickly with most christians when you say do you believe abortion is murder?

35:37

They say yes, and then you say do you believe murder should be criminalized and they say yes And then you say okay, then abortion should be criminalized and they say no and you go where Where did

35:48

I where did we where did I what what train station did I leave you at? And it's like you can't be in both camps, right?

35:54

Like I live in a county in michigan that is famously named after uh, president james monroe

35:59

Well, guess what? He went down in history as an abolitionist, which is a word that you're associated with that was for slavery

36:06

Uh, but there was letters to him and jefferson back and forth where jefferson said look at you can campaign for partial abolitionism

36:13

But you're not really an abolitionist. You can't hold 250 slaves and say i'm against slavery

36:19

You can't say it wouldn't be good for the economy of the united states and then also try to set up.

36:25

Uh, You know relocation camps for slaves in africa So we kind of tried to have it both ways and I don't see how we can have a view as christians

36:33

Having that view with abortion both ways. So my question to you guys would be I mean that seems to be a big hurdle for me when i'm talking to people

36:41

How do you guys overcome that when it's just very for me i'm black and white. It's very simple his abortion murder Yes, does murder of consequences?

36:48

Yes, but then you have so many christians that just go well, no, you know the woman Emotions feelings.

36:54

I mean we had luke pearson on and he just straight up said look at the reason why People don't want to do they don't want to call the woman a murder and I don't want to be crass

37:01

I I you know, I take the great commandment very seriously But at the same time shouldn't we stand up for truth and justice and and what is right?

37:09

Yeah, this is a really important point We actually our most recent pocket episode was with a woman named sonia ginella.

37:15

Yeah, I listened to somebody that was good I'm halfway through it Yeah, yeah, I know it was great and just to hear her to hear just like like the freedom that she has to just say

37:23

I was a murderer like I I murdered my child But the grace of god was there for me and if you did this the grace of god is also there for you um, and it's it's really this is one of the things that uh

37:33

A lot of us have noted and jeff durbin talked about at our conference Uh in in february is he talked about how you're really denying

37:41

The these post -aborted mothers full access to the gospel when you say You're you're not you're not as to blame for what you did because if you're a victim of abortion

37:50

As the mother who aborted her child Then what do you have to seek forgiveness? What do you have to seek god's grace for now internally that mother really knows she did something she knows she's dead

38:00

But you got all these people coming and say no, you know, you're a victim. You're a victim And so they're not gonna they're not going to have that that impulse to go

38:06

And seek the grace of god. They're not going to actually find true healing true redemption that women like like sonia have found

38:12

Um, and so it really is just it's telling them they don't need the gospel when they really really do More than anything else in the world.

38:19

Yeah, um, so it's really it's not even a loving Loving thing in the name of us Yeah, that's pastor friend of mine.

38:26

He actually had a saying that he would say to other pastors But it applies to all christians He would say that there's two implications for not preaching the gospel or for not preaching about abortion to post -abortive women

38:36

Uh one they're either going to get the impression that um, their sin is too significant insignificant to to mention

38:43

Or it's so bad that they couldn't be forgiven for it Just in our own lives what that is.

38:50

It's like after you confessed it It's gone like you put it on the cross. It's nailed there and it's dead.

38:55

There's nothing there's nothing there's no effect It hasn't anymore. Um, and so sonia we saw that with her.

39:00

She was she's a joyful woman I would recommend you guys uh any listeners this podcast check out that one A really good episode on this topic because she speaks to someone who actually when she was advocating for abolition

39:10

She was thinking I thought that I was going to get punished retroactively She's still going out and arguing for it, but like, you know as she grew in her understanding

39:20

She knew that no, we're not arguing for a retroactive justice in any way But she was still someone who was willing to take that punishment and said they're protecting babies from being murdered

39:28

Awesome, and you will and you will find in the pro -life movement Women who are still laboring.

39:35

They've got like this sort of like works based um Theology and they're like they regret their abortions.

39:42

They think that they were a victim they they run around the country talking about their abortion and how they found healing and stuff, but They haven't called it murdered.

39:50

They haven't confessed it They haven't been at the foot of the cross. And so they're still sort of like Burdened by it and then within the abolitionist movement you see these women.

39:58

They were just completely set free and men I mean, they're it we talk about it like it's just women murdering children

40:04

But really they have both you go to an abortion mill. You see just as many men, you know walking them in Um, but there's just so many in our culture

40:13

Who need to be told it sounds harsh But they need to be told and our nation needs to be told that we are a murderous nation

40:20

And we are filled with murderers and our hands are full of blood And we have to repent

40:26

And repentance is going the complete opposite direction. And so that whole thing whenever you remove the call

40:33

This is murder. This is sin. We must repent Um, the judgment of god against this is is great

40:40

Um when you remove that whole thing, it just messes up everything legislatively and messes it up You know logically but also leaves all these people dead in their sin and one of the final how much

40:52

I don't know how much time I have left so I won't spend too much time at this point But this is a very important one that we hit and that is that one of the biggest differences between the pro -life and abolitionist movements

41:00

Obviously, you've got the incrementalism versus the mediatism, but there's also we're Gospel -centered explicitly christian and the reason why this was the other reason but one of them like what

41:09

I just talked about Repentance is the answer right abortion is sin Abortion apathy is sin

41:14

Uh, and all these things are sin. The answer is repentance And so these kind of crafty political schemes aren't going to bring about national and individual repentance

41:23

This has got to be a gospel -centered thing and that's something that we will you know, we'll have a table about it It's very very important.

41:30

This is a gospel -centered movement and the pro -lifers. They want to make it a Big tent business. So bring in the atheists the hindu pro -lifers all of them.

41:38

I'm not having a debate You know, i'm in a pro -life facebook group and i'm debating with the um with the one of the moderators of the group saying

41:44

Hey, you shouldn't allow, you know transgender activists to like evangelize for their viewpoint in your pro -life group and he's like well,

41:51

I mean they have a place in the pro -life movement, it's like Come on, you're allowing people to say that you know, god is a is a queer woman and you know

42:00

That's that's happening in these pro -life They have a place in the abolitionist movement if they repent and believe the kingdom of god is at hand

42:06

I mean, it's like it's not we're not saying that you can't but but like it's it's all can come in to follow christ and so Seeking and I know we're kind of we all you know, you guys are asking like one question that we all kind of know

42:23

But yeah, it's like interrupt anytime but like I think that One we're not just meeting this because we like want to be more christian or more theological or like appeal to that group

42:35

These ideas really are the ideas which actually are going to have the right effect And all the sort of crafty cunning

42:43

Let's fight a let's fight abortion because it hurts women or let's be woke about how we like See that they're second victims and all this kind of stuff

42:51

That the pro -life movement does to appeal to the world and the world's values Has they've been attempting this for like four and a half decades five decades almost

43:00

And it has not borne any fruit um, and so if we can get the church by which

43:07

I mean if we can get the people of god to actually be on board and only unify

43:14

Around fit calls for justice. We're gonna we're gonna see actual ground game.

43:20

This isn't just so we can be Absolute More holy than that our more biblical

43:29

I might have to take a couple of times but I don't always say this people but when they ask me what a biblical argument Is for abolitionists and sometimes

43:35

I just want to say but look at every prophet in the old testament ever Um, because when we're talking about it being about repentance

43:41

But the prophets did was they brought before a people a nation their sin And they were either killed or the people repented

43:47

Like that was those were the things that happened to the prophets like in the case of jonah People repented in the case of so many other prophets.

43:54

They just straight murder And so our role as christians is to be that prophetic witness to the legislature to tell them

44:01

They are sinning they are in the wrong and they have the responsibility to uphold the constitution to abolish abortion

44:07

And to establish justice for their pre -war neighbors that they are not loving them Yeah, I would say to you guys as we wrap up here.

44:14

Uh, you know, I think it's so important to take such a Uh truthful and hard stand for justice.

44:21

I know over the last two years I've been frustrated with some of those in the pro -life movement and industry within churches that are adopting this very kind of woke christianity

44:31

Progressive kind of soup to nuts pro -life like you can't be I mean, it's it's already co -opting the whole movement with saying you can't be pro -life if you're also not pro -life for someone who's in poverty

44:41

Or you know, you have to believe in welfare and you have to believe in all these governmental aides, right?

44:47

this is happening for the You guys probably know better than I do how long but in my area at least two to three years

44:52

I've seen it kind of starting to take shape to where probably in 10 15 years Maybe less than that how fast things are moving.

44:59

You're going to see the pro -life movement kind of be this machine of um of this progressive kind of uh, you know theology of governmental support from Being able to murder the child in the womb, but if it is born indoctrination through schools through welfare through Money programs through social programs and it's and it's very disheartening

45:21

Uh, because now is the time like you guys where you have to take that stand Um, but i'll tell you what, let's look at the language

45:29

I was gonna say if you like look at the language pro -life that term will just Accomplish anything like hillary clinton's pro -life, you know,

45:36

I mean You know people who are pro -choice And don't want abortion to be abolished are doing it for the life of the mother.

45:43

So it's just about Yeah, just a really loose term it can mean anything And oftentimes whenever some abolitionist comes along and is banging the drum for abolition

45:53

To try to so it's a very quick like when someone says what do you think about abortion? It should be abolished.

45:58

It's murdered Yeah The exact reason you're talking about is why abby johnson opposed the abolition of abortion in texas

46:05

She said that they're going to take away their funding for social programs and things like that. Um, that's not very pro -life

46:10

That was her response. Oh, yeah Awesome and also a lot of the pro -lifers are actually anti -capital punishment, which is uh, i've noticed that too with their their anti -justice

46:22

Across the board anti -capital punishment Yeah, so guys as we finish up here, too

46:27

Why don't you just throw out very quickly about the liberator podcast tell people where they can listen to that at And a little bit about what that's about.

46:35

Yeah, so facebook and youtube We're free the states and then on all of the podcast apps going to be the liberator podcast Yeah, and if you go to free the states .org,

46:42

there's a contact there's like a sign up for all our letters We don't send out tons of letters saying send us money send us money

46:48

You know, we're not going to be doing that all the time, but we do update people

46:54

About the things that we're doing but we'll also update people about different abolition bills that are going forward in different states different rallies different campaigns

47:03

Just as the abolition movement continues to grow It's just important to network everybody together sure keep everybody informed so sign up there if you if you like snail mail

47:13

Awesome, you know jason you got anything else for the guys? No, you guys thank you so much for having this, uh, extremely important conversation with us

47:21

We uh, we had a great time with you guys. Thank you so much for your work Yeah, absolutely And guys, we'll make sure for all you listeners

47:28

We'll make sure we link up to each of the links that they mentioned to here on the episode We'll make sure you can get to those as always

47:35

We do appreciate you reaching out to us on facebook and instagram and youtube and all the places where you comment for us

47:41

And listen, we we love bringing glory to god through uh, you know having guests on like this So james sam t russell hunter.

47:49

We appreciate you guys so much for taking time out explaining that to us getting to discuss this And uh, we really love you brothers in the lord and we wish you the best.

47:57

Uh, jason Later dudes. All right. God bless guys Be sure to follow us on facebook and instagram at dead men walking podcast for full video podcast episodes and clips or email us at dead men walking podcast at gmail .com