Gene Cook Called About His Interview with Dan Corner

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.

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If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 973 4602 or toll -free across the

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United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

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James White And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line on a

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Thursday afternoon Another chilly one here in in the Valley of the

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Sun at least for us Fact I was mentioning just a few moments ago.

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It's a valley of the clouds today. It is pretty cloudy out there no, two ways about it and only about 49 degrees and Maybe have snuck up to 50 or something like that.

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But someone up in Chicago said it was 48.

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So when we're within one degree of Chicago, that's That's called for us. But hey that Enjoy it while we can

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I still remember back in August getting up at 4 a .m To go down the South Mountain to ride by 5 a .m

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So you can get get up to the top before the Sun rose because it was 93 degrees at the start So I can't really complain too much.

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Hey, I wanted to Thank Brother Gene Gene cook to be differentiated from Gene Scott You're who's dead?

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Yes, this is true Gene cook took note of my having taken note of him having taken note of Dan corner and having him on his program and I blogged about it last yesterday had to after listening to that interview on while I was riding yesterday and There were a couple times

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I was riding along and it must have been very odd to see a rather large bald man on a racing bike

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Riding along going shut him up, Gene I Would have shut that guy up so many times

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Gene's obviously considerably nicer than I am and because I was just ah, I was

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I guess I said most everything I would need to say at least a couple years ago on the dividing line that we linked to Where I went over what had happened back in st.

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Louis regarding Dan corner, but be that as it may I want to thank

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Gene for Mentioning I did not get the chance to hear the program myself rich did and I guess he took the opportunity this morning of announcing to his wife on his program

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That they are going on the cruise and so now you have much more reason to go on the cruise instead of just the angry bald man and And a class on the cross.

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It's historicity in theology. Now you get to meet a famous guy like Gene, so you better hop to it now and Get your get your reservations in while there's maybe we should put him to work while he's there, you know

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I was thinking about that. I was thinking about maybe like a mock debate or something on board I I but he'd he'd have to be the

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Christian I'd get to be some some nasty Snarling heretic or something. That would be very

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I could be Dan corker Anything well, you'd definitely be a better Dan corner is

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Because we all hate it when you roleplay the Mormon. Oh, yeah, or the Jehovah's Witness We all just sit there and go no, no, no, no somebody else do it.

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Somebody else. We hate it when you do that That would be fun. Does that Murray says chalice is coming to that's that's quite interesting

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He's gonna be paying more for internet to blog Yes for the cruise I can assure you of that.

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But anyway, I appreciated Jean's comments and promotion of the of the cruise and Just a reminder for all you procrastinators before we get back to a brother

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George One one ought seven the prices go up and you say well, well, why is that well because you have to Yeah, I've learned a lot about the travel industry over the past number of years and you have to start paying for your inventory it over time and the good deals are up front and I've been encouraging folks

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The cost on this thing. Honestly, you you couldn't take classes like this Almost anywhere else for less and you get wonderful food in the process.

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The mercury is well known for its cuisine its food so it to throw all that in with the the beauty of the scenery and If by the way, if you're concerned about getting seasick or something, you need to understand something we're gonna be in the inside passage, we're not going out to sea basically and Since we're going to be in the inside passage then it is going to be just as smooth as silk,

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I mean I I At one point last June was on the mercury. I was working on pulpit crimes.

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It just started it and Needed to get some fresh air went out on the very back while we were in the inside passage and and caught a

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You know lounge chair back there and to just be sliding through that Incredible inside passage is a beautiful day.

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So partly cloudy as the Sun would come out and go back and oh it was It was gorgeous. So don't

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Don't be concerned about that In fact, I can't think of a better cruise to go on if you are concerned about that because in the inside passage

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There's just there's there's basically no motion at all. It's just as smooth as can be in the mercury is a beautiful ship

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So keep that in mind it's a it's a excellent opportunity to Get together with a bunch of folks and I thank

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Gene for discussing that on his program I for one I'm going to be listening to the narrow mind tomorrow morning because I want to hear more of What hand corner has to say?

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I we played a clip. We have a clip on on the website and I I hope you listened to it

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Because I was gonna queue it up and I completely spaced doing that. I apologize for that, but It Just absolutely positively when

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I heard this I remember exactly where I was on on the road as I was listening to this and it's so Plainly illustrated the vast difference between a

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God centered salvation and a man centered salvation it was just To Hear Dan corner who of course is absolutely unwilling to recognize

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The connectedness of such things as the intercessory work of Christ. Hey Christ intercessory work isn't important to his gospel

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It only makes salvation a theoretical possibility. Anyways, it's all man. It's all man. It's all man.

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Let me see if I can Bring this up and maybe if you've got the the volume there

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I want to I want to play that that segment again from the from the program on I believe it was

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Monday when when Jean had him on because it just it just struck me as Being so clear and and so strong that I want to see if I can pull it up.

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Here's my question for you I'm gonna ask you this for the third time. You haven't answered this question Do you believe that Jesus Christ sitting at the right hand of the

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Father? intercedes for people who are not Christians All right, you asked me that for the third time you said

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I have an answer that that is absolutely irrelevant To the discussion that's supposed to be going on if it's possible for a

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Christian to lose his salvation. It is relevant Let me tell you what? Let me just stop right there for a moment.

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It is irrelevant To whether a Christian can lose his salvation whether Jesus Christ is interceding for that person or not

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Think about that for a moment. What does that mean that the intercessory work of Christ doesn't save anybody?

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That he's that he could do that for everybody and it's still up to you.

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It's your contribution It's your activity. I Would love and I don't think you could ever get him to answer straight questions like this

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But I would love to ask him So what does it mean that he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw nigh unto

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God by him? What do you mean? He's able to save Because from corners perspective he can't he has no ability to say

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I'll tell you why no in John chapter 17 Jesus prayed to the

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Father not everything Jesus prayed for Was accomplished we know because he prayed for unity.

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We know in the Corinthian congregation. They had disunity So just because Jesus now, let's just stop right that kind of Outrageous eisegesis is

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One of the reasons there's 800 pages in corners book now I mentioned to someone just recently if Dan corner had had a professional editor

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His book would be 200 pages long not 800 pages long. That's first thing But but secondly, it's this kind of outrageous eisegesis that connects the disunity that exists in the

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Corinthian Church and Somehow means that means Jesus's prayer was not fulfilled Doesn't see the unity of the body in the

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Holy Spirit in first Corinthians 12 is being fulfillment. No, no No, no what Jesus prays for it doesn't necessarily happen.

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So we have To keep Dan corners man -centered salvation going we have disunity in the

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Godhead We have the Father and Son at odds with one another

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What an amazing thing or or could it be worse than that could it be that God The father agrees with the son, but there's nothing he can do about it

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He doesn't have the ability to do anything about it. Because of course is

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God is Not sovereign is God is under the control of the autonomous will of his creature

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What an incredible thing God wound up this creature and let it go and oh no it went insane and Now there's nothing

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God can do about what an incredible concept praise for things It could still be interfered with somehow some way based on that comparison between John 17 and 1

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Corinthians chapter 1 which of course is the actual thing that has

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Nothing at all to do With the intercessory work of Christ because Christ isn't just praying that something would happen

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His intercession is a presentation of his finished Sacrifice see what happens when you become a man -centered theologian when you don't have a gospel.

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That's a divine work Let's face it on the key issues of the gospel

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Dan corner is still a Roman Catholic He may not have the sacraments anymore, but he's still Roman Catholic his view of sin his view of grace his view of the will

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Of man, everything is still Roman Catholic He's he's not a he's not he rejects reformers.

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In fact, I would love it. There was no question asked about this I would love if someone would call in and ask this question though Again, you can't get a straight answer out of this man if you tried but but ask him

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What did you mean by this imputed righteousness? What do you do you reach do you deny? That that believers have the imputed righteousness of Christ, I can't see how he could possibly affirm that I really can't

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Because none of his none of his theology gives any any indication that he actually does does believe in that So I'm looking forward to hearing that hearing that tomorrow before we go back to George Bryson and his his

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Attacks upon the Reformed Faith 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 is the phone number and we've got a caller

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We've got Mike. How you doing, Mike? Oh Hi, dr. White. How you doing? Pretty good.

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How are you doing? All right. I had a quick question here I know it's off subject, but I was talking to a friend of mine just yesterday and we were talking about theology, which is a popular subject around here and I was wondering what your comments would be on second

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Peter 3 9 says I have a Different Bible translation, but it says in mind the

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Lord does not delay his promise Hello. Yes. Oh, okay as some understand delay, but is patient with you not wanting any to perish but all to come to repentance and so I went through and read through the whole thing with him and gave him an answer for myself, but He wasn't totally satisfied with my answer.

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I was wondering what you had to say about it well I've I've addressed that particular subject a number of times and I have a chapter called the big three in The Potter's Freedom where I deal with Matthew 23 37 2nd

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Peter 3 9 and 1st Timothy 2 4 and one of these days I'm gonna buy that book. Well, you know, you sort of need to do that.

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Yeah And also everything of yours on my shelf if I if I weren't a poor college student

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The poor college student excuse I was a I was a poor college student when

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I started building my library, too And sometimes you just eat the mac and cheese to get the book, you know Remember what

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Erasmus said? He said when I get money I buy books and if I have any left over eight, so That was there you go the wife now if you're single it works.

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Okay the wife part Yeah, it doesn't doesn't work very well. That's the problem. I have yeah. Uh -huh. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I my wife was very patient But anyway,

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I also addressed it of course in the book with Dave Hunt debating Calvinism. So let me just Go back over briefly in regards to the the context that the the answer to 2nd

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Peter 3 9 And by the way, if you do a blog search, you'll also find a discussion of this

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If you search on the blog, but 2nd Peter 3 9 is is in a context and it's the context that is so very rarely

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Examined when it says the Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but as patient toward you who is the you who is to whom is this patience being shown the assumption of the normal citation of the verses is that you is a

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Universal term of all human beings who have ever existed on planet Earth That's the only way that they could make this because not wishing for any any of who?

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Any of you so the you defines the any unless someone wants to say well

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He's patient toward you my immediate audience And then this is just a general statement not wishing for any at any time in any place to perish

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But for all that is everyone at any time in every place to come to repentance

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Maybe they try to make that argument But what I do is I just I just back up the the truck in essence and say, all right, let's

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Let's follow the pronouns. Let's follow what's going on here And what is the context because the context is not even a soteriological context.

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The context is eschatological If you look at it 2nd

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Peter 3 1 this is now beloved the second letter. I'm writing to you Where's beloved come from?

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Well 2nd Peter 1 1 the very beginning of the book itself gives us the indication of who this is written to Simon Peter a bondservant and Apostle of Jesus Christ to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours

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By the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ. So to whom is he writing?

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His audience is to those who have received a faith Just a little bit of an evidence there of the fact that the that saving faith is the gift of God Received a faith the same kind as ours by the rights of our

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God and Savior Jesus Christ And that is the correct translation of the text. It is our God and Savior Jesus Christ that is a reference to the deity of Christ just in passing

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So this is now beloved the second letter. I'm writing to you, which I'm stirring your sincere mind

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By stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder that you should remember the words spoken beforehand by the

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Holy Prophets and the commandment Of the Lord and Savior spoken by your Apostles knowing this first of all here comes the context then the last days

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Mockers will come with their mocking following after their own lusts and saying Where is the promise of its coming for ever since the father's fell asleep all?

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Continues just as it was in the beginning of creation. So what's he talking about? There are gonna be those that are gonna come

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They are going to be engaged in mockery. They're gonna be saying where is the promise of his coming? Everything is the same as it's been he's not coming back, etc

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Etc for when they maintain this for when they now notice you've got you second person

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We've already established the context of that you are those who received same faith as we have received and then they now becomes these false teachers these mockers for when

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They maintain this it escapes their notice that by the Word of God The heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water

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Through which the world that time was destroyed being flooded with water But by his word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire kept for the day of judgment and the destruction of ungodly

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Men, but do not let this one fact escape your notice Beloved that with the

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Lord one day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like one day So if we just stop right there, we have a they a third person

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Mockers People outside the faith and we have Peter saying to you in contrast second person

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But you don't let let this one fact escape your notice. You need to understand these things

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Especially when those outside begin to mock so that then becomes the context The Lord is not slow about his promise promise of what the promise of the coming of Christ as some count slowness

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But as patient toward you not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance but the day of the

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Lord will come like a thief in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements be Destroyed with intense heat and the earth and its works will be burned up So notice there is no shift between eight and ten as to what's being addressed

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It is still the parousia the coming of Christ. Why has the parousia been delayed?

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Why is it that time has passed and these mockers are mocking us? What is the reason?

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Well, it comes up in verse 9 He is not slow about his promises some count slowness

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But as patient toward you not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance now with all of that said then

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There are those who from a reformed perspective from reform perspective would say this is still a general statement that is the grounds for God's Patience toward mankind.

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It's meant in a general way similar to saying that the law for example says

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Do not murder and so it is God's general will that murder not take place

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However, we know that in his specific will and his specific decree has included murder has included the kidnapping and Joseph for example what happens when the

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Assyrians come into Israel or even most clearly what you have in Acts chapter 4 and The murder the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, and so they will say that's what this is about.

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Well Okay, I don't know that I would necessarily, you know argue too strenuously

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But I would go, you know, I the only problem with that is that I don't see where the you

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Changes the you in verse 8 and all the way up the context and then down below the context as well

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Stays the same and so to interpret that way I'd have to interpret the you is for some reason just just changing now that can happen if there's a real strong Reason to force you to believe that but I don't see anything in the context that forces me to believe that The way

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I would look at it consistently is the Lord is not slow about his promises some counts loneness

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But is patient toward you who is the you? Well, the immediate you are the beloved those who've received the same the faith the same kind second

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Peter 1 1 not wishing for any and I would interpret the audience of any

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To be the same audience as the you So the reason and but for all all of who all of you to come to repentance so the reason for the parousia is rather clear

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God's patience has held back that wrath held back that day held back that coming as He has been gathering in all his people in Christ Jesus those who from eternity

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He had chosen to be electing Christ. Yes I mean if the if the piracy of Christ had returned and he had returned 2 ,000 years ago or if you turned 1 ,800 years ago

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What would happen to all of us? None of us would ever have had the opportunity of salvation

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And so the delay is not that he is slack about his promise not that he is slow about his promise

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But he's gathering the elect in and he continues to do that and he's done So all across the world so that the number of them is indeed as the sand of the sea over the course of of the the history of the church and so There you go in regards to how

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I would read it in context Very rarely I I can count on on on one hand very easily

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The number of folks that I have talked to who've quoted 2nd Peter 3 9 who have ever given any

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Consideration to the text in its context They're just quoting it because they've heard it and it says he doesn't want anybody to perish.

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So that must mean That you know that he's desperately trying to save every single person is very upset that he missed missed a few in the process.

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So that's Just been my experience people don't look at that Okay, that's actually how

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I how I presented to him not as in -depth as you did, but Thank you, sir, all righty,

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I want to let you know, uh, I pray for you just about every day Well, I appreciate that. Thank the

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Lord for your ministry. Okay. Well, thank you very much for listening and definitely keep praying for us All right.

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God bless my back Have very encouraging a call there and many more on the line.

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Let's talk to Rick. Hi Rick Hey, how you doing doing? All right. Good. Um, my question was

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I'm actually I liked how when there was a call actually from like Here, maybe it was last time.

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Um, how you mentioned that? God's predestination Regarding of the reprobate and you mentioned that his choice of mercy is not the same as like the necessity of justice that goes on the other side and I always kind of I Never had that resolved and I really

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I thought that was really insightful and well well I think it's important because I in fact, I appreciate your call because I got an email and I I just it's next to impossible to respond to all emails so I guess

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I can sort of respond to this email in answering your question and in fact in commenting on what you just said because The individual clearly had not heard what

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I was saying and was saying well look it It sounds like you're still saying this double predestination thing people need to recognize the difference between predestination and election

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Without recognizing that difference they can get into a lot of a lot of issues Predestination when used in a in a general sense is talking about the entirety of God's sovereign decree and when it comes to Individuals hence the end result of what

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God's decree concerning that person is about election is a gracious act of God And when

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I say gracious, I'm not just saying the partially true definition of grace, which is unmerited favor

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That's that is a true definition, but it's only partially true It's better to say Demerited favor.

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It's not that we're at a moral neutral point It's that we deserve something else and we get something completely other than what we deserve

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And so election is an extension of God's grace. It is a powerful extension of God's grace done totally freely unconditionally without fulfillment on the part of an individual and God looking down the corridors of time blah blah blah blah it is free on his part and As such it is a exercise of grace whereas Not electing someone to salvation is simply a part of God's freedom which results in the necessity of justice being done in regards to a particular individual now, of course, we know that the

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Electing grace of God works in concert with God's provision of perfect salvation in Jesus Christ So that his justice is never overthrown.

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His justice is never mocked. His justice is never just dismissed That's why when people like George Bryson try to turn this into just a matter of God and eternity past rigged the game

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Well, if all God did was just rigged the game and then went off to Tahiti someplace

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Okay, I can see maybe some objections there, but what you need to recognize is that all of God's decree is a part of his self -glorification

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Including something as amazing as the incarnation itself The incarnation is absolutely necessary for him to be able to extend that grace because it's it's that work on the cross

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It's that work in in in Jesus Christ It's that forms the foundation upon which that extension of grace can be made

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And so to cut all of that out and say that's irrelevant to cut all that out and say, you know, that doesn't mean anything is to completely miss the whole point of what election and predestination is all about and To do it in such a way that you have just this bare

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Eternal decision without the incarnation without Christ without being united with him with without the sanctification process without all the things that go along with that is to take one little portion of the truth and set it apart by itself and In essence mock it from that point forward and that's what

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I really dislike about to George Bison's presentation. Okay. Yeah Yeah, that was a wrestling a little bit with how

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Like I believed in that and I believe that you know God chooses who receives his mercy and who doesn't but I was like in what

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I guess what what would it mean that God is? Not the author of sin. Like how do you like I've been trying to run with that Do you have do you have a book or have access to a book or maybe a library nearby that would have

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Robert Raymond's a new systematic theology of the Christian faith. No, I could might want to track it down at the library

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If you don't have it, I mean, it's a it's a great book to have it's available in electronic formats And it's in the library library.

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It's available even for your PDA for that matter you know, there's lots of different ways of getting it, but I would

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Recommend it to you. It's Thomas Nelson publication his section on God's sovereign decree and man's responsibility is really really good and it's something that honestly what you need to do is

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And this is this is tough for a lot of modern folks to be honest with you because we just don't do this very much But you need to get alone in a quiet room turn off the iPod turn off the radio and all the rest that stuff and Probably read the section three times in a row and then maybe go get some

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Tylenol and try it again, but it really does take Concentration that a lot of us these days in the video generation

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Struggle to put forth that kind of mental effort for a long period of time to really work through everything

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But in a in a short summary in essence of what we need to Keep in mind when we talk about the author of sin,

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I am the author of Pulpit crimes. I'm the one who's who sat at the keyboard and I'm the one it was my brain that made the fingers move that formed the words that made the statements and so I am

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Accountable for that. I did not Say to so I did not say to someone else say to the the folks who helped me with the editing

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The uber librarian Marie or flame me up in Canada and the friends that help with that I did not

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Send them an idea and say you write this. I did not force them to write something in my place

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I did not in other words use secondary Influences I did not use secondary causes in the writing of my book.

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I'm the one who authored the book. It was first -person I'm the one that did it. So when we talk about God as In his relationship to sin

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We need to differentiate between God being the author of sin in his bringing it about by his direct action and the use of secondary means that is the the fact that and and people

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Normally want to focus on Adam, but let's at least start with something that we know something about let's let's start with our own experience we know

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That there are these desires in our hearts and that there are times we enjoy acting upon those desires that we love our sin and that in fact

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It is God who restrains us very often from from going farther in that in that sin that we would or even

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Keeping us from committing that sin in various instances. And so we understand

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Both the concept of God restraining and the fact that there have been times that God has used in our own lives our own sin as a means of sanctification the the

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Experience of forgiveness the position that it put us in all of these things we know that all things work together for good for them that love

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God for them as they're called according to his purpose and Even our fallen state is used by God in that fashion.

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And so I am the author of my sin I am the one who wants to do it.

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I'm the one who acts upon it When I sin in a high -handed way in the sense of I know this is wrong.

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I know beforehand that it's wrong It's not that someone it's or God or the devil or anybody else is standing behind me with a big old gun saying do this

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Do this do this. I'm the one that does it and it comes forth from me now the issue of God's Relationship to evil is the issue of God's decree to the actual action itself

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And that's why I keep taking people. It's the only thing I can do really I'm not smart enough to do all the philosophical stuff

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I have to keep taking people to the scriptures and illustrating from the scriptures how this works when you have

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The greatest example of that of course is the crucifixion itself Acts chapter 4 These men

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Herod and Pontius Pilate and the Jews and the Romans they all had different Intentions they had different hearts.

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They had different backgrounds They had different desires and yet they did exactly what God's hand had predestined would occur

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Now you have one action and on the part of the man It's sinful but on the part of God his purposes in it are perfectly just and holy

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Same thing happened when God brought the Assyrians against the Israelites to punish them in Isaiah chapter 10 very clearly

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He brings them that what they do is terrible. I mean the Assyrians were nasty guys And yet he then turns around and punishes the

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Assyrians for the attitude they had in conquering the Israelites It's right there in the text.

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It's it's it's it's plain on the page and Clearly the the point of judgment the the the locus of judgment that God uses is the

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Intention of our heart and since God's intention is always holy just and good in this even we can't see what the purposes are

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He has we have that promise and ours never is We see the the basis of judgment and that goes all the way back to Genesis chapter 50 when?

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Joseph is talking to his brothers and he he says to them about the heinous things that they had done selling him into slavery

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Fooling their father and into thinking he was dead and all the rest of things. He says God you intended this for evil

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God intended for good and to save many people alive today So God had a purpose in what he did even in that action, which on their part was sinful

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But it was not sinful on God's part. That's the that's the key Differentiation to see is that that action was not sinful on his part.

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He was saving many people alive. In fact, he restrained Joseph's brothers from doing more to him.

34:00

They wanted to do may want to kill him But he restrained them and kept them from doing that. And so really

34:07

Raymond I think does a good job expanding upon that and making application

34:12

I think you might find to be find to be useful along those lines. Oh, thanks a lot. Okay.

34:17

All right. Thanks All right. God bless brother. Bye. Bye eight seven seven seven five three three three four one

34:23

Let's continue on and talk with Arturo. Hi Arturo Hey, dr. White, how you doing doing good?

34:30

Long time talking to you for a while I've been in channel for a while. You're in my channel that I am working for you.

34:38

Yes. I haven't had much time Yes. Yes. We have a we have a UPS man on the on the line.

34:43

What do you why aren't you working right now? La some family leave My son was born in May.

34:49

So I'm taking a week off. I understand. Yeah, I'm sitting here watching the closed -circuit television via reflection on a mirror and We always keep an eye out for that big the big brown the big brown truck that pulls up Yeah, what can

35:05

Brown do for you? That's right. What can Brown do for you? Anyway, I'm a ties with there.

35:10

I'll send you a bill a little bit later. There you go Talk a little about about the Catholic apologists

35:17

I think everyone pretty much in channels. I'm Catholic, but It's kind of scary the way the

35:23

Holy Ghost might be leading me doing a lot of reading So when I listen to Catholic radio and listen to these

35:29

Catholic colleges the people call in with questions the apologists will answer the questions and Just make it that that's gospel.

35:40

For example, let me give an example Then we don't call in about the Canon and I'll listen to John Martin only a few weeks ago and he talked about The council council of Hippo Carthage and basically was saying that you know

35:55

That's where the Catholic Church established the Canon and they leave it at that knowing or not knowing that Jerome Gregory the great all these other churchmen rejected the apocrypha

36:09

Oh, yeah Well, you know they do know that I mean we've debated that I don't know whether Martin Yoni does but but others are aware of those things, but it has been my experience that They only are willing to discuss those things when they are sort of forced to By the

36:28

Protestant having enough knowledge to to challenge them when they're talking internally They're willing to just basically go with the least common denominator.

36:37

That's enough to keep people happy and That's one thing that I would say is it is a major difference between how we do things

36:46

Not how everybody in the process side because look in the process side you get people do the same thing there's there's lousy books out there in the apologetics realm that give very surface level answers and You know, that's that that happens

36:58

But the fact the matter is at least when we are addressing these issues We try to address them in such a way that you know,

37:04

I'm thinking about alright if I tell this person XY or Z And they go out and and and say this to somebody else

37:11

What kind of refutation might be offered so I want to try to give them enough information and a depth of enough information to where they will

37:21

Hopefully be able to give a fuller answer and within their context. So right. Yeah, I understand that I think

37:28

Yeah, I was just rewatching the park for debate you had against Gary Machuda, right?

37:33

And The biggest man I think I've ever debated Yeah, it was amazing to see him walk up to the podium and then watch you walk up there like I don't think that's always that short, but you like your show that that's the biggest man.

37:47

He walked in there I was like, oh my goodness. I mean, he seems like a gentle giant. He really does.

37:53

Yeah, but he's huge. Yeah Soft voice mannerism about him. Yes. Yes I was planning watching the debate when he would when you would make good points.

38:02

He would acknowledge that that's a good point James That's a good, you know when you yeah, he was very different And and Moses and in Jude Yeah, he wasn't

38:11

Jerry. He wasn't a Tim Staples. Yeah And that's one of the debates. I would love to have on DVD.

38:17

The most would be the papal infallibility debate you had against him because I listened to him on Cali radio too, and he and they

38:26

Advertised so much as papal infallibility CD said that he's done and I'm thinking like well, dr.

38:32

White blew you out the door. I mean But yet people won't hear no, no

38:38

And and they'll just take Tim gospels CD said or whatever what he's what he talks about as being the truth and not go into historical

38:47

You know biblical historical patristic sources. Well, no, that's interesting to me because I didn't know that he had done a

38:54

DVD on that. I know you've been doing a lot of stuff. I think that a CD set. Yeah that that doesn't Is it dated after the debate?

39:02

I wonder oh, yeah It's a recent one. Yeah, Catholic answers is advertising right now on their

39:07

Catholic life show on their on their on their breaks They that's one of the things they're advertising right now is a new

39:13

You know on papal infallibility and I think on Mary I think I have an idea for something next

39:20

Tuesday I think I think we may need to play that clip followed by the cross -examination period from that that debate

39:27

That's which was such an incredible Experience on My part his is asking me four or five questions

39:37

During I think it was 14 minutes and I asked him I think 41 distinct questions during mine

39:43

That was quite quite the interesting experience, but right I thought during the cross -examination

39:48

His first question was about the cannon and I'm thinking what the cannon have to do with people on television

39:54

Yeah, I mean to me that's the same that you know, they're they're losing it They're drowning. They're coming over their head and they have to switch

40:01

To a totally different topic that for some other debate and it's and it's to get their people excited

40:06

And that that's exactly what it did believe me My my wife and kids reported to me the stuff that they were hearing in the audience around them

40:14

Which was which was quite interesting. But anyway, yes, Gary Gary was quite different than then

40:20

Tim State Tim Staples was no no question about it. Did you uh, did you want to? fairly

40:26

Fairly briefly raise the issue that had been discussed in the in the channel a little bit

40:33

You come up you Chris. Yes Yeah, I think that's one of the issues for me that I'm holding on to as I read more reformed

40:44

Literature as a matter of fact, I just got done reading RC scrolls. What is reformed theology? You know understanding the basics and then

40:50

I'm jumping into the five points of Cal Calvinism Defined defended and documented by still

40:55

Thompson Quinn and It's really could I could I suggest a bit of a challenging one?

41:03

one that I think that you would find to be useful would be John Owens the death of death and the death of Christ and the reason obviously that I would recommend that is

41:14

I honestly think that the the the greatest Argument and it's not so much an argument to be honest with you

41:22

I I would suggest to you Arturo that that some of the connection that you feel there is

41:29

It's experiential It's it's it is something that that is very deeply rooted in your in your psyche

41:39

And I understand that it's difficult to address Issues like that in an unbiased manner and it takes time.

41:47

I mean No one has been chasing you around and saying, you know, you need to change your your ways at this very moment people have been suggesting things to you and I think that the greatest way to to get past that and to to really

42:02

Analyze it in the proper way is not so much arguments about for example, what could

42:09

God do? but to from my experience for most people what what gets them past that issue and really to the point of being able to embrace the truth is a thorough knowledge of Not what could

42:24

God do and is it possible that this happened or that happened? But what has God done in Jesus Christ?

42:30

What is the cross really all about and is it God's will to in essence?

42:36

parcel out a body of grace that is created by the death of Christ and Really the question and and you know this you've you've read my stuff

42:48

So this isn't anything new for you, but but I I again would just really strongly impress upon upon you the question

42:56

Do you really look at the writings of the New Testament, especially the book of Hebrews and do you see there?

43:02

a concept that in essence says well You can come to the cross because remember

43:09

I'm going with Rome's best presentation here I'm not giving you the jack -chick stuff Rome's best presentation.

43:15

Is that the cross is a Representation of the one singular sacrifice of Christ.

43:22

Okay, if that's the case Then do you really believe that the

43:27

New Testament teaching is that you can come to that one? sacrifice a thousand times 5 ,000 times ten thousand times over your life and yet die

43:40

Impure having come to that one Sacrifice of Christ over and over and over again, you know what

43:48

Ludwig Ott says, you know what he says about Intentionality, you know what he says about the the limitedness the grace

43:56

You know about these things and I'm mentioning them because not everybody does but I look at that and I go.

44:03

No, wait a minute You read the book of Hebrews and you've got these these

44:09

Jewish Christians who are being who are be it's so much pressure is being placed upon them to go back to the old ways go back to the old ways and What kind of an argument does the writer provide to them would?

44:23

the Mass have been an argument that would have kept one of those

44:30

Jewish Christians from going back or would they be going back the very same thing that you have in the mass a repetitious activity that never

44:42

Perfects you instead it reminds you of your imperfection That's the question that I would ask.

44:50

Is that really what the New Testament is teaching and and honestly Arturo? My prayer for you is that and for everybody to be honest with you

44:57

I'm speaking to my to to folks who who may have you know Been in my church or my tradition for a long long time there needs to be a passionate commitment and a passionate understanding about the once -for -allness of the cross because without that We are going to be subject to all sorts of errors all through our doctrine of salvation and our own

45:25

Personal experience of it and the security that we have in understanding our relationship to God I would say the very same thing to Dan corner to be perfectly honest with you

45:34

I'm not sure if you know who he is, but I played a portion of him earlier He doesn't have a finished work that actually accomplishes anything either

45:41

Right, and so that's what I would say to you. Is it you know get hold of I'm sure there's plenty of folks in In channel that can help you to track down the best price.

45:51

Hey, look who just pulled up outside What can Brown do for us? There's plenty of folks there channel who

46:00

Would be able to help you find the best the best resource and tracking down the death of death and and I mean, obviously if there's an issue there, we'll get it to you somehow or another

46:08

But I'd really encourage you to track that down and and then once you've had an opportunity to really think through the the whole realm of of the atoning work of Christ, then maybe we can really have a foundation upon which to Compare that with what

46:23

Rome teaches about the Eucharist sound like a plan Sounds like a plan wrong one real quick more question if I could

46:31

The the Catholic Church says that the Lord instituted the sacrifice of the mass at the

46:36

Last Supper but my question is how could our Lord have instituted the sacrifice of The once and all false sacrifice of the mass at the

46:46

Last Supper when he had not even gone to the cross and made the sacrifice Well, you know what their answer that is

46:52

I mean, I consider that a valid objection because of the nature of the relationship of Christ role as as the sacrifice itself and then as the high priest in heaven

47:04

Their answer to that just to give you the Scott honey in response Is that since Christ is an eternal person then all of his actions can be considered to be a temporal now

47:16

I I go well that yes Christ is an eternal person but how does it follow that therefore his actions are a temporal when the presentation of those actions in the

47:27

New Testament clearly have a Temporality that is the parallel between the high priest who would offer the sacrifice and then take the blood into the holy place

47:35

I mean, there's a temporality there that you can't get around and so I find it to be a less than than genuine response but that's the response that is offered by by Roman Catholics and I Reject it, but we at least are going to give you the best answer.

47:51

They're gonna they're gonna provide. All right, okay Well, I hope I wish someday you'd make it up to the up here to your sister -in -law's

47:59

Well, who knows maybe maybe it'll happen. I'll just have to keep in channel. All right. All right. God bless All right, great great to talk to our tour here on the dividing line and let's

48:13

Let's run over to line one real quick as Adam I know you're there, but you gotta admit Adam we get you in all the time

48:18

We're gonna try to get to you But we don't get calls from uber famous people with narrow minds like Gene Cook all the time.

48:25

Hi, Gene Hey, I'm doing pretty good, I'm all excited about tomorrow now.

48:31

Oh, yeah, I am too. I'm losing sleep over it Well, let me tell you something

48:39

I've got to describe this for you if if you had seen me I don't know if you're listening the whole thing

48:44

But if you had seen me I was riding along on on my racing bike along the canal here in Phoenix and it's cold

48:51

And so I'm all bundled up and I'm listening this whole thing and after about I'd say 10 or 15 minutes.

48:59

I Started and I hope no one saw me doing this because it would look like I'm a complete loon

49:06

But I started yelling Gene shut him up Gene stop him because you were being too patient with the man

49:14

You it's like I would have jumped in so much faster, especially At the beginning

49:20

I understand you got it. You got to get the interview going and stuff like that but when you'd ask a clear direct easy question that could be answered with such directness and He's off to the races on something that was just you know mentioned ten minutes ago or something

49:37

It's like I just wanted to slap somebody as I drove by them on my bike, but I didn't thankfully

49:43

It was it was just so so frustrating and I got to agree with you at the end there

49:49

That you know, this guy is this guy's pandering to false gospel around. There's no question about it. Yeah Absolutely.

49:56

Well, he's gonna be he's gonna be on again tomorrow. Yep 9 a .m Yeah, I'm looking forward to talking to him

50:02

The reason why I called in today is because I want to know how many people do I need to sign up for the cruise before?

50:07

I can actually get my free cabin Well, we're gonna have to get you we're gonna have to get you in touch with Michael Fallon and who is currently on an aircraft flying from interestingly enough from Tampa to Phoenix and we'll be here late this evening, but be happy to to get you get you in touch with him and See what we can we can work out because I'm Lee.

50:30

I Say that tongue -in -cheek because I reserved I reserved a cabin here at this afternoon

50:36

But I don't know if you anybody told you but I actually plugged the cruise for about 15 minutes

50:41

Yeah, I program I mentioned it this the beginning of my program today. I I thanked you for that and Then use that as the segue into repeating what to me was the most amazing statement on the part of Dan corner with you and that was in reference to The intercessory work of Christ and how it is irrelevant to quote -unquote eternal security and how

51:05

Jesus doesn't always get what he prays for I Felt that was probably one of the clearest examples of the difference between a divine gospel and a man -centered

51:16

Gospel I'd ever heard did you by the way catch the dividing line? I did back in 2001 where I documented

51:24

The the shenanigans that that corner pulled on me back in st. Louis, I was listening to part of it last night

51:30

Yeah, it yeah, what's funny is yeah, he did the same thing with dr.

51:35

Robert Mori. I don't know if you know about that. I Wouldn't did he make you sign a contract?

51:41

No, no, no, he didn't. Okay. How did you get how'd you get him to do that? Because every other time he has he has been insistent upon people

51:48

Signing a contract that they would never mention the other points of Calvinism, I guess he's getting desperate

51:56

But here's the thing I hope he might be listening I've got a couple surprises for mr. Corner tomorrow, okay

52:02

He pulled the same thing with dr. Mori. In fact in his book toward the end. He has an open letter to Hank Hanegraaff I think he might even have an open letter to you in there.

52:11

I think he does and He mentions in his open letter to Hank Hanegraaff that dr.

52:16

Mori refused to debate him So after I read that I called up dr. Mori and I asked me started laughing

52:21

He basically told me the same story that I heard about your deal with Tim and out In fact, it was going to be with Tim and out.

52:28

Oh and he wanted Mori to promise. He wasn't going to talk about anything, but once they've always saved and You know you and dr.

52:37

Mori are too smart to fall into that trap. So I Got I have a little soundbite because dr.

52:45

Morita called him from the Tim and Al show and So I called Tim or actually he had

52:51

Tim called me and we recorded a little bit about Tim Barron saying that That this is just a lie.

52:58

This is a fabrication Really? So I'm going to ask him about it tomorrow and then I'm gonna

53:04

And I'm gonna play the sound clip from Tim Barron's. I'm gonna say now we got dr Mori and Tim Barron So I must be talking to an unsaved man because I'm sure that lying

53:14

Then it will get you thrown out of liars will not inherit the kingdom of heaven That's right along those favorite texts of his and and you can add to that the fact that I have challenged him since 2001 to provide to post the entirety of The tape recording he made of me talking with him so that we can demonstrate that he did in fact

53:38

When he posted on his website He cut it in the middle of a sentence and that the rest of the sentence is exactly what

53:44

I said It was which completely changes the intention of what was being said. So There's there's a number of folks that he he needs to settle up with if he wants to be considered an honest individual

53:54

As to his behavior in the past, but I'm definitely looking forward to it I don't think you can get much of a straight answer and to be honest with you if you do that Right toward the beginning.

54:05

It's going to be a short interview Yeah, yeah, I'm he may not make it through the full hour tomorrow.

54:10

Yeah. Well if you play that stuff, yeah First reason I was being so patient is because I wanted him to come back on Friday But as a result of the show on Tuesday, I did buy an additional piece of equipment for our studio

54:22

I don't have to ask my wife to meet the

54:28

Guest on the professional line. I can do it from where I'm sitting. Yeah Tomorrow's gonna be more of a controlled environment, you know,

54:35

I mean, well, I heard you say that and I and I thought to myself Well, my little Gintner unit here is is a nice little

54:42

Thing to have because I can I can mute you pop you on hold do whatever I need You know very quickly and that's very useful when you when you're doing interviews with somebody

54:50

So I'm gonna be listening and Rich says he's gonna be listening. So I'm definitely looking forward to it and I'm also looking forward to to October and who knows like I said the beginning of the program

55:01

What Rich said was well, we had to put him to work and I said, hey I said may we could do a a mock debate on the ship and I get to be some nasty snarling heretic and Thinking about having an actual debate, but then

55:17

I couldn't think of anything that we did We can find something. I'm certain we can find something but it would

55:23

Not be nearly as exciting as what you're gonna be doing tomorrow. So that we'll talk about that Forward to it.

55:29

Also, I didn't catch the first part of the program today. I tuned in about 330 our time okay, so but I appreciate the plug and Hopefully we'll give you something enjoyable tomorrow morning.

55:41

All right. Thanks, Gene. All right. God bless. All right. God bless. Bye -bye Looks like we lost Adam. I was good.

55:46

I had time to get back to Adam if he had been there I could have gotten to him but no We bailed out now

55:53

I'm looking forward to tomorrow morning for those of you who are wondering who in the world that was Gene cook the narrow -mind webcast you know the ease

56:01

I've got links on my blog to to his main page and to the mp3 of the

56:07

Dan corner interview and Some people might say who cares about Dan corner. Well, you know what?

56:14

I Fully understand that Dan corner is is a small blip on the radar screen in academia

56:21

But you know what? It's this kind of stuff We've had us we've had a fellow in channel who has mentioned that Some good things were happening in a church that he knew of and they brought

56:32

Dan corner in specifically to snuff out the development of of a biblically based soteriology in that church and so while academia at times sticks its nose up in the air and says these folks aren't aren't worthy of You know

56:51

What's the amount of time you spend with them blah blah blah blah, yeah, okay, I understand

56:57

This is this is not the best our minion ism has to offer But you know what? Sometimes you've got to deal with what's actually coming into the church and into the pew and that's not always the high brow end of things in academia, and so you you sort of have to deal with the whole range of stuff and Sometimes that's not as nearly as enjoyable and it can be very frustrating and I could tell

57:24

Gene was frustrated How could he not be I certainly was? Just listening to this man running around questions and and you could not say boo without him trying to comment on you're saying boo

57:36

It's just It was it was such an odd thing to listen to his pontifications in that program, but We may blow up poor

57:46

Gene server Tomorrow on the webcast. I may end up having to catch on archive or something if it turns out that way

57:53

But if so, then once again as I'm riding along the canal bank I will be listening and yelling something as we're going along and it's better than what a lot of folks

58:04

Along that that place are listening to I'm I'm listening to good stuff after I got done listening to Gene cook and Dan corner

58:11

I picked up a da Carson lecture on the historicity of Jesus. So I went from the

58:17

Partially absurd and to the sublime in in so doing so anyway next week what we got to do

58:23

I've got to remind me rich I got to catch the Tim Staples commercial for the papal infallibility thing and follow that straight up with the it with the

58:32

Cross -examination we did and ask the question will Tim Staples put the cross -examination in his

58:38

CD set Well, let's find out Friday to order that set in to huh? What do you think? We'll see on the dividing line next

58:44

Tuesday. God bless He was standing at the crossroads

58:57

Let this momentous flow away We must contend for the faith above us fought for we need a new

59:05

Reformation day The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries if you'd like to contact us call us at 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or write us at p .o

59:45

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That's a o m. I n dot o RG where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books tapes debates and tracks