Authority of Scripture

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five. Three three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white.

Opening Banter and Introductions

And good morning. Welcome to the dividing line on a Tuesday morning. The summer has arrived in Phoenix, Arizona. I think we're about to set a record for the number of consecutive days above 100 degrees in the month of May.

Which has nothing whatsoever to do with global warming. So in fact, I was listening to a book this morning as I was writing on the myth of global warming. It was very good. It was very Enjoyable, maybe someday we'll do something on the myth of global warming.

That interesting noise in the background is the fact that I am NOT alone in studio today. Behind me we have Ezekiel known as Zeke the dog. We've just decided that. Everybody else is in here. So he was could be in here, too.

Hopefully he will not be audibly participating in the program today. And if he does it will really interrupt everything. I'm sure but anyway. And then I think the reason he's here is he's sitting next to my daughter summer who is just sitting on the floor staring at me so.

He's not. Well, why would those two people be in the studio? Because we have two other folks in the studio and this is where the channel rats. Get to have some enjoyment in in listening to the program those of you who listen I know we have we have special forces guys in Afghanistan that listen to this program.

I think that's awesome, and they don't really get to be channel rats, unfortunately. But and I don't know where we came with the term rats. Anyways, because they're not the rat is not the most, you know.

Then again sheep aren't either so we don't want to call them channel sheep. We are you already had them called a no minions and things like that so just regular folks in the chat channel and so when they come by we had Pastor Bartolucci on a few weeks ago and when when when folks tend to pop in we drag them in here and and Jamin Huebner was on.

How long ago was that? March 23rd funny how summer would know the exact date like that. Hmm wonder why. Well anyway. Mm-hmm. So anyways, I have in channel with me two folks I've now we'll start. We should go ladies first, but we're not going to.

We'll start with with Lane sitting to my right now some of you know who Lane is because you also watch YouTube videos and Lane has Far surpassed my my pitiful little YouTube sites my little page with its 300 some odd little videos on how many how many videos do you have for 50?

Okay, but I only have 3 ,300 subscribers and well and you have how many subscribers? 6200 6 that 6 ,000 subscribers and I only have 1 .3 million video views. You know and so I'm just you know, I'm just the small fry, you know, but That's because I only put my stuff up.

That's right, that's right, so I do get some credit for a little bit of everything so but You've been you started doing that before I did didn't you? Yeah, just a little bit and I learned for example, I learned what a YouTube partner was from Lane and How to apply for that and so those of you who like the longer videos on my YouTube page.

You can thank Lane if you don't like the longer YouTube videos on my page. You can blame Lane. That's the sort of how it works. So it's just but you all are And I guess I'll just mention also sitting across from me.

I can't see I can only see eyes Through the all these spider webs of microphones here. It's sort of funny. We call her sue ski. I Supposedly, you know what? I should have done. I'm I I apologize. I should have had the Florida Gators flight fight song Chewed up and ready to go here, you know and because sue has Sue's claim to fame is that I happen to know who won the NCAA ladies championship this year.

And why in the world would I know that except that I was watching Sue play for Florida and I Even did that when I was in Dallas. I'd come into channel and nobody's talking you. Hey, what's going on? We're watching Sue.

You know, it's like oh this is exciting in here and channel is great. Okay. So I'd go searching for it in the in the hotel room on you know ESPN or something like that and we'd we'd watch the game or something like that, but so you all are doing a.

Cross-country drive type thing here. Is that what. So no, it's there and back. We came just to see you actually.

Longer drive than you expected a little bit. Isn't it exciting between here and and Southern, California? Isn't it? Just beautiful. That's great. That 80 mile stretch we didn't know. Yeah, well it night it's not very pretty.

No those of us who have driven it many times there's really nothing there. That's why they blew up nuclear weapons and stuff out there because there's nothing to kill. So. Yeah, it's it's not all that pretty but you did come at a wonderful time.

We had record heat yesterday. You just barely missed that and it's actually gonna cool down over the next couple days. So That's actually better. But if you want to have 107 degrees or something like that, you just you just missed it.

Oh, it's a shame. So you all are out Visiting my daughter I guess and I'm a little concerned about what it's gonna happen when we let you guys loose after you leave. It's gonna be scary but now Lane, I guess we're supposed to be doing something a little bit later on a Recording and as this a video webcast.

Yeah, this is um, I'm doing a podcast and this is gonna be the first video one and you're gonna be the first.

We'll do that and That'll be up on your YouTube page. I would imagine you're not gonna be putting on my YouTube because that would help my stats so anyway. And so tell us a little bit about some of the people that you.

Feature, I know you've got a lot of Paul washers material Paul washer. I just posted something about Phil Johnson. Just not.

Is he the creationist Phil Johnson or the grace to you.

Yeah grace to you pyromaniacs. Phil Johnson. Who else to have a lot of cross TV stuff with Mark Keillor? Yeah, great great stuff.

Yeah, really high quality production. Yeah. I remember watching the first one of those and I was going. I've heard this somewhere before. And then I realized they were just using the Potter's Freedom, right?

So, well, that's excellent and you got a lot of a lot of people that really appreciate that and it takes a long time. You know, I first started YouTube videos man, I was cranking about right and left and it's like man this takes forever you know.

And and and. It's one thing when it works, right? But what really gets frustrating is when you run up against a wall and you've got one video you worked so hard on. But there's one part of it. That's just you know, crashing the encoder or something, you know, and it just oh.

Just sucks the life out of you. It's like, ah, it's rough. But you keep you keep working on as best you can so we appreciate that work. Now now sue you I was gonna go, you know, I didn't ask you about what.

I was gonna talk to you about her dad, but. But I was just gonna ask it. It just must be you know, I would imagine everyone recognizes that. Collegiate sports is filled with with wonderful Christian people and.

That it must be very easy to have a testimony of the Lord because everybody's Christian and everyone's pure as a driven snow and. There's no I mean I watch the sidelines even during the ladies games and I don't want you to be specific, but I saw a few coaches.

It looks really angry and I I just can't imagine they're just going. Oh darn. All the time during those during the during the breaks. Because it looked like their eyes were about to explode out of their heads a couple times.

They looked so angry at what was going on in the court and stuff like that. So is it is it pretty easy being a Christian in college sports?

It's it's very difficult. But you kind of just have to have a filter on at all times basically. Yeah, but you're always being watched. You're always being watched. You are definitely just a living testimony and especially if you're very vocal about your faith and you really put it out.

There it's it's not easy by any means, but it's a very high-pressure situation at all times. You know, not only are you being watched on your faith? You're being watched on everything you do, right?

So but you know and how you respond to adversity and getting getting yelled at by the coach and everything else.

Where did you all finish this year? What was your final ranking? Um, I can't remember our exact ranking. We had gotten as high up as number nine in the country, right? But I think we ended around like late teens because we kind of fell off in the month of February was.

But we we made it to the second round of the NCAA Tournament and hey, let's let's face it you you lost to Connecticut and.

Connecticut. Pretty much beat everybody. Yeah, the way they beat us in the second round is the way they won the national champion. Yeah.

Yeah, it just seemed to me that I don't know aside from having some really really really good players that Just hit their shots. They just seem to Execute constantly the other team might do it for a while, but they just couldn't keep up the Consistency over time that they did and that's why they just you just watch the points and it's first.

It's pretty close and then they start pulling away and then it just gets bigger and bigger until the end of the game. It's like yeah. Yeah, it was it was it was pretty amazing to watch him grind through everybody.

So but no I Obviously as we would watch the games and I would watch What would happen? I? Just I couldn't handle that. Because you know people say oh, well you you know, you do debates with Muslims in London.

And so it's totally different because you're talking about someone getting in your face and you're doing the best you can and they're just screaming They're there, you know their lungs out and I'd be sitting there going now.

There's no need for that kind of language. That's not gonna work in that situation. I realize that so I couldn't I couldn't I couldn't do that kind of thing. It's a there's too much pressure.

I don't know how he does it. Yeah, my pastor in Florida. He. He came. I had to sit out a year because I transferred. He would come to those games whenever I was sitting out and you. Talking with me about him and then the year that I was playing didn't show up to one.

I have I understand that there were a couple times I. And I know this is ridiculous, but but I've always felt that if I watch a team I want to see when they're gonna lose. I just feel like I'm a bad luck guy, you know.

So I just sort of like, you know. Or or you know. You'd take a shot and let's say would rim out or something like that. And and I just have this real real desire to like flip over to CNN. No, not even CNN.

No, fuck something like that. Okay, they're not gonna play the replay good. Okay, I'm back in you know that type of thing. So there's there is that kind of pressure. But it was sort of fun watching and channel.

You'd see everybody changing their Knicks. I don't know if anybody ever told you about this, but I never saw this part. Well, yeah, but I would change your Knicks to like Grace Su fan and wonky, I don't know if one gear did it but He couldn't spell Su fan.

But anyways, we'd all be putting Su fan at the end of our Knicks and channel. And so it was a sort of a family thing. But so anyway, it's it's good to have you I keep saying kids cuz Lane Lane sees Lane's got the the black the black birthday of 3 -0.

Staring down out of there. So I mean, he's already having to have knee surgery. Stuff like this and man I tell you I keep telling I keep telling my kids once you you get over that tipping point is Accelerates man.

So you just go on straight.

He can beat me in basketball still so well. She lets me win.

That would be interesting to watch that. You can't just stand out at three-point range and drain him.

Uh, we go back and forth because as tall as he is he's also a three-point shooter.

So summer and I probably wouldn't want to take you guys on. It'd be pretty ugly. Well, it's good to have you guys out here and I just wanted to get you over the nervousness. When you've had TV cameras in your face and stuff like that the NCAA Tournament or something like that and it's like.

But anyways, well, thanks for being on the program with me today and like I said you all need to. They'll keep it calm today, you know, I don't want to be getting any phone calls. Ripping up Phoenix, you know.

Whoo me? No, it never happened. So but anyways, well, thanks for being here. I want you to stick around a second and we've got a couple minutes for the break and We're actually got a fellow on the phone so you can all listen to how it sounds when we do the big radio shoe here and Who knows maybe Harold in Conyers, Georgia will have a question for you guys because who who's the George you're the Georgia.

From where. Marietta. Marietta. Alrighty, so let's talk with Harold. Hi Harold. How you doing? Hey, I'm doing great. How are you doing? Pretty good.

Hey, I just come just calling up with a question with regard to solo scriptura. Alrighty. Well, first of all, I'm a Reformed Baptist so I London Baptist Confession of Faith and the availability of scriptures in there and viciously for all the Needs of the church including salvation and life a little nervous here.

No, no reason to be nervous. Well, I'm not in the studio audience. Anyways, the okay. I understand why the canon is the canon that is by virtue of it having been inspired in and Authored by God who is the absolute authority and therefore the church does not need further Revelations from Rome to make the canon what it is.

Well because God did that when he inspired it, right? So my question has to do with how God led his church to recognize his word throughout the centuries. I Understand is sheep. Here's what this is my question.

Would you say that the only means to be inspired in reality the what are the inerrant at?

Well, let me ask you real quickly. Have you seen my book scripture alone? Actually, I just ordered it I'm just beginning to go through it. Okay, there's about two chapters on this subject and I think they'll be of assistance to you and it's it's difficult to Go back over the fundamental issues there but I'll try to summarize it as best I can because it is a common question and The problem is the vast majority of works that you will read approach the issue of the canon from a Historical rather than theological perspective.

What I mean by that is if you read FF Bruce or some of the others What they do is they they they look back on History and they go. Okay this early church father gives us this information and this early writer gives us this information and so we can sort of see that these were the kinds of standards that were going through people's heads as they dealt with issues of what was and what was not scripture and It is recognized by most people that Marcion for example Raised a lot of interest in the subject of the can of scripture because he altered what was being used as scripture.

He made alley. He not only changed for example the texts themselves taking out anything that was positive about the Old Testament or about the Jewish people. But he also rejected certain books because there were certain books.

You just you couldn't even bother to edit it. There was just too much Old Testament it like he wasn't like that, right? What would you have left if you took the Old Testament Hebrews, you know? But That's how most look at the subject of the can is if you can you can look back that direction I approach it from a different a different way and it's not that that isn't valuable and important it is but for some reason.

The vast majority of discussions on the subject of the canon do not start with asking a theological question and yet. Isn't the canon a theological issue? It's not just a historical issue. I mean how the canon is recognized over time is historical.

But the nature of the can itself is a theological question and so it seemed to me that first and foremost a person has to have a Theological understanding of what the canon is and how the can is formed and so that's why in the book I present the idea that that and this is this is the terminology but that the the canon is an Artifact of revelation it is an artifact of revelation.

It is something that comes into existence by necessity in light of God's act of revelation and I use the illustration of You know a personal illustration and that is I've written a certain number of books.

And I've done that over a certain period of time a period of time. Actually now I think about it longer than certain people in this room have been alive and So it's it's it takes time but not longer than other people.

So I just wanted to get that out there, but but the as soon as I wrote the first book a Canon of my writings came into existence now I did not have to take out a piece of paper and Put at the top the canon of my writings.

And then write the fatal flaw and then answers the Catholic claims and letters to a Mormon elder. That is the first three books are out, but I did not have to have a list someplace a canon comes into existence by necessity once an author Produces something in in writing and.

So I think it's important to recognize this and we in regards to scripture the reason it can exist is because God has inspired at least one book and He has not inspired all books.

I found your argument in order to communicate. Or it would be it would be Irrational to expect him to not then communicate at all. Well of course.

But the point is the point is his his his active inspiration has not been all books obviously right there is a limit To it. So once God began that process of revelation The canon came into existence and God knew what it was.

Even if nobody else at that point in time did so the first thing to remember is the canon is not something that is created by an external act outside of Revelation itself the canon must be completely divine that is it is first and foremost known Infallibly by God.

And so what I did in my book is I did for it differentiate between canon one Which is God's knowledge of the canon which is infallible and perfect and is as a result of his revelation and Canon two which is our knowledge of what God has done and canon two has to be differentiated from canon one if you if you Squish them together you end up with the Roman Catholic claim that the church is the one that creates canon if you don't recognize what these issues are in regards to The canon being an artifact of revelation, and then I raised this question What is God's intention in Giving us scripture.

Why has God revealed himself now if God? Revealed in his scriptures, and if he didn't actually let us know what they were then we might not even be able to know this. But if God for example revealed in the scriptures that he just wanted to sort of give a willy-nilly Revelation that some people might get and some people might not they didn't hit really have a purpose in it.

Then he wouldn't have to put out any effort for us to know what scripture was. But the scriptures actually tell us what his purpose in giving us revelation is there are these interesting passages for example The end of the book of Romans.

Paul makes the statement that that these things were written down in former generations for our benefit for our Encouragement and so we find these texts and scripture. It tells us that God has a purpose for his church to possess and know the scriptures.

And so the question then becomes all right. What what effort is God going to put out to fulfill his own self-stated purpose in?

The giving of the scriptures exactly that that's exactly what my question, right?

And so and so when when you say when you ask the second part of your question. And this evil thought just crossed my mind. I should say now having said that suit take it I'm just gonna stop just freeze Silence it just what see if make sure summer took a picture right then and there as the the look of horror across across Sue's face.

It would be sort of similar to all of a sudden her realizing she just shot at the wrong basket and drained it. Connecticut appreciates that anyways. But I will not do that because I am a merciful man.

And she's from Georgia and you're from Georgia. So we have to be nice to two people in Georgia because they really need us to be nice to them anyways, but I mean think about Ordo and channel. I mean Man, I'm gonna tell you something.

So the tambourine lady. Yes, indeed. Oh, no, Katie Bo is coming in now, too. This is gonna get crazy anyhow. I'm not trying to take the question non-seriously, but In answer to the second part of your question, they'll see that's where most people focus themselves is.

Alright, but what was the process? Can we know and notice what you in in making the statement what you said would be the this this idea of Holy Spirit inspiration just be aware of the fact that Roman Catholic apologists, especially Love to jump on that.

They love to jump on That claim because what they'll do and they're they're sharp some of them. Anyways, what they'll do is they will read you Texts and they'll say does the Holy Spirit tell you that's inspired or not and they'll pull some out of the Apocrypha.

They'll some pull some out like Augustine and then they'll pull stuff out of these obscure parts of the Old Testament that unfortunately most of us have never read. And caused tremendous confusion as a result because the fact the matter is.

That's not how it has happened. And that's not how it happens today. God has used his people and God has used godly men and godly churches in the past in The process of bringing his people to recognize not Canon one.

But Canon to Canon one exists because God has inspired scripture. Canon two is our knowledge of what God has done and I say that God will put forth just as much effort as is Necessary for him to fulfill his purposes in giving the scriptures and inspiring the scriptures in the first place.

Since the scriptures are meant for the edification of the church and to function as that foundation upon which he stands then that process that took place which interestingly enough and this is where a lot of Christians get lost because they don't know church history and Both of you I'm sure you guys I could I could start throwing up church history names and you guys just be batting them around.

Like anything, right? Yeah, yeah I mean like putting Irenaeus into the into the right, you know century stuff like that. Yeah, okay. Anyways, Clement of Rome, okay the time period that that was in effect between the end of the writing of the Old Testament scriptures and their recognition and function as scriptures during the time of Jesus ministry is Almost identical to the time frame that we see the Canon developing in the New Testament.

And this is this is why I have so often Insisted that when Roman Catholic apologists in essence taking the position of the agnostic Want to question our knowledge of the New Testament scriptures. They run afoul of the process that brought about the Old Testament Canon Jesus clearly held men accountable for what God had spoken in the Old Testament.

There's no question about Exactly have you not read what God said to you saying Matthew chapter 22, right? What was the process? How long did it take and was there an infallible magisterium that decided it?

The answer is clearly no and it's interesting to me that in the exact same time period of About 400 years you have the very similar process taking place of the New Testament that you had with the Old Testament if you didn't Have to have some Roman magisterium when there was no Roman magisterium during the first 400 years anyways.

But if you had didn't have a Roman magisterium in the Old Testament, you don't have to have that for the New Testament either. That's that's another key issue that I raise in the book, but that's I forget which chapters there I could look them up here for you, but you you have it you have it there I think it's chapters five and six something around that area where I go into this entire discussion.

So Hopefully the written version will allow you to review it more slowly than the spoken version does but maybe the two of them together. We'll make it a little bit easier for you.

One of the things I'm just really trying to understand and I'll be reading the Text trying to take and understand your arguments very clearly. And but one of the God uses are the inherent attributes of Scripture.

So with that we know what they are in reality.

Okay. Well, I'll tell you what Harold I'm gonna put you on hold just a second. And I'd like to discuss a little bit of that on the other side of the break and we'll continue it then. Okay? Okay. Hold on just a second.

All right, eight seven seven seven five three three, three, four one. We're gonna take our break and I'll let you guys escape from this warming up Studio. Thanks for being on the program. No making faces to the glass.

Thanks. We'll be right back.

Bible works 8 is here full of innovative and essential tools. Users will have a hundred and ninety plus Bible translations 35 original language text and morphology databases 29 lexical grammatical references and an abundance of additional resources.

Pastors you will appreciate the phrase matching tool which will allow you to find all of the verses containing Phrases similar to your search verse giving you greater depth and keener insight during sermon preparation.

Seminary professors and students will be enriched by the way Bible works 8 shows the most common words in the pericope Book or chapter plus provides a wider range of formatting options and faster access to copying preferences.

Scholars. Your research just got easier with the army external resources manager a handy tool to collect organize and display resource files from your computer As well as the internet. Dr. James White says Bible works is the best Bible software available.

I have used Bible works software for years and each new release has brought many new and useful tools to the program. This is the program that runs 24 -7 on my office computer and it is the one that's running on my laptop.

When I engage in Debates it is simply the number one research tool for anyone doing serious exegesis of the text. For over 15 years Bible works has assisted all users in their study of the original languages and That enables you to do one thing focus on the text and that translates to focusing on the truth.

Order your copy of Bible works at a omen org and for a limited time You'll receive free shipping and a free mp3 download of the white airmen debate. The history of the Christian Church pivots on the doctrine of justification by faith.

Once the core of the Reformation the church today often ignores or misunderstands this foundational doctrine. In his book the God who justifies theologian James White calls believers to a fresh appreciation of Understanding of and dedication to the great doctrine of justification and then provides an exegesis of the key scripture texts on this theme.

Justification is the heart of the gospel in today's culture where tolerance is the new absolute. James White proclaims with passion the truth and centrality of the doctrine of justification by faith. Dr. Jay Adams says I lost sleep over this book.

I simply couldn't put it down. James White writes the way an exegetically and theologically oriented pastor appreciates. This is no book for casual reading. There is solid meat throughout an outstanding contribution in every sense of the words.

The God who justifies by dr. James White get your copy today at a omen org. Hello everyone. This is Rich Pierce. In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man-centered self-help program.

The need for a no-nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater. I am convinced that a great many go to church every Sunday yet. They have never been confronted with their sin. Alpha and Omega ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses.

Man is sinful and God is holy. That sinful man is in need of a perfect Savior and Jesus Christ is that perfect Savior? We are to come before the Holy God with an empty hand of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Alpha and Omega takes that message to every group that we deal with while equipping the body of Christ as well. Support Alpha and Omega ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glorious grace.

Thank you, and we'll go back to the dividing line. We are talking with Harold from Conyers, Georgia and now now the the question you have. Repeat it for me because you're talking about the inherent attributes of Scripture, right?

Well, basically my question has to do is attribute the origin so that we would know what they are in reality.

Well, keep in mind that I would argue that to even be able to recognize these things Would require a spiritual aspect. What I mean by that is I've really been taken recently with Luke 24 45 and Jesus's statements after his resurrection that he he had to open their the minds of these believing men Believing Jewish men so they might understand the scriptures and they might If we're in this instance see the scriptures testimony to him as the Messiah, and so there seems to be If you follow the discussion through the Psalter you look at Paul and Romans 1 There seems to be an inherent Attribute of sin that darkens the mind specifically in reference to recognition of God's Word and obedience to God's Word, so I'm answering this question in regards to the Christian.

What would the Christian see as those inherent? elements of God's Word that point to its perfection inspiration and And so this is something that the man of God would recognize and I think it's an excellent question one that we should ponder on more than we do we should meditate about because for me one of the things that has Become very important to me in in thinking on that and in in Recognizing the the perfection of God's Word and the the spiritual nature of God's Word Has has been the consistency of that word across 1 ,500 years of inspiration across multiple languages and and all the change that took place in in the nation of Israel then as the scriptures went out into into the Roman Empire to see the consistency that is found in all these different authors and all their different life experiences and Yet to find the scriptures to be consistent harmonious with themselves.

This is the very area that is under attack in in our day, and I think it is because it is What the man of God? comes to to see to sense to experience. And it's not something that I can necessarily give to somebody else.

It's not I can sit here and talk about it until the cows come home, but it is only when you have Taught through the Word of God. It is only when you have preached to the Word of God when you have studied it when you have Not run away from the tough things not run away from the difficult text, but have worked through them that you come to recognize this and you come to embrace this as a a precious element of One's inheritance as one of the people of God is what God has revealed for us in in his scriptures.

And it is right here that I think there are so many today That they they start encountering this and because So much of the preaching and teaching in in the church today lacks authority it lacks That element of exhortation that would cause us to grow in faith.

They end up turning away at the very point where they could discover the greatest treasure of the Word of God. They they because they're they're professors In so many seminaries are not men of God in the sense of being churchmen.

They don't have that sense of being ambassadors for Christ. They offer them an easier way. In fact, I'm sure you've heard this but if you haven't I think it's important people recognize that when Bart Ehrman Went from Moody to Wheaton and then to Princeton and he was first at Princeton.

He wrote this lengthy paper on the text in Mark chapter 2 where he discussed the issue of Abbie Athar in the days of Abbie Athar the high priest and One of his professors wrote on his paper Rather than interacting with what he said and think of that.

He wrote on his paper. Maybe mark just made a mistake and It was that that opened the floodgates for Bart Ehrman to be the agnostic enemy of the Christian faith. That he is today. Well, he was there's no question, I mean, let's let's.

I wasn't even addressing the fact that obviously from my perspective Bart Ehrman There are so many people who have a crust of religion and yet They don't have the the changed heart and as a result are are eventually going to experience either that kind of apostasy or an apostasy that leads them into some form of heresy that that shouldn't surprise us because that's what the Bible actually teaches about.