Authority of Scripture

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.

White call now It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white And good morning. Welcome to the dividing line on a Tuesday morning.

The summer has arrived in Phoenix, Arizona I think we're about to set a record for the number of consecutive days above 100 degrees in the month of May Which has nothing whatsoever to do with global warming

So in fact, I was listening to a book this morning as I was writing on the myth of global warming It was very good.

It was very Enjoyable, maybe someday we'll do something on the myth of global warming That interesting noise in the background is the fact that I am

NOT alone in studio today Behind me we have Ezekiel known as Zeke the dog

We've just decided that Everybody else is in here. So he was could be in here, too Hopefully he will not be audibly participating in the program today

And if he does it will really interrupt everything. I'm sure but anyway And then

I think the reason he's here is he's sitting next to my daughter summer who is just sitting on the floor staring at me so He's not well, why would those two people be in the studio?

Because we have two other folks in the studio and this is where the channel rats

Get to have some enjoyment in in listening to the program those of you who listen

I know we have we have special forces guys in Afghanistan that listen to this program

I think that's awesome, and they don't really get to be channel rats, unfortunately But and I don't know where we came with the term rats.

Anyways, because they're not the rat is not the most, you know Then again sheep aren't either so we don't want to call them channel sheep

We are you already had them called a no minions and things like that so just regular folks in the chat channel and so when they come by we had

Pastor Bartolucci on a few weeks ago and when when when folks tend to pop in we drag them in here and and Jamin Huebner was on how long ago was that?

March 23rd funny how summer would know the exact date like that. Hmm wonder why well anyway

So anyways, I have in channel with me two folks

I've now we'll start. We should go ladies first, but we're not going to We'll start with with Lane sitting to my right now some of you know who

Lane is because you also watch YouTube videos and Lane has

Far surpassed my my pitiful little YouTube sites my little page with its 300 some odd little videos on how many how many videos do you have for 50?

Okay, but I only have 3 ,300 subscribers and well and you have how many subscribers?

6 ,200 6 that 6 ,000 subscribers and I only have 1 .3 million video views

You know and so I'm just you know, I'm just the small fry, you know, but That's because I only put my stuff up That's right, that's right, so I do get some credit for a little bit of everything so but You've been you started doing that before I did didn't you?

Yeah, just a little bit and I learned I for example, I learned what a

YouTube partner was from Lane and How to apply for that and so those of you who like the longer videos on my

YouTube page You can thank Lane if you don't like the longer YouTube videos on my page.

You can blame Lane That's the sort of how it works. So it's just but you all are And I guess

I'll just mention also sitting across from me. I can't see I can only see eyes Through the all these spider webs of microphones here.

It's sort of funny We call her sue ski I Supposedly, you know what? I should have done.

I'm I I apologize. I should have had the Florida Gators flight fight song ready to go here, you know and because sue has

Sue's claim to fame is that I happen to know who won the

NCAA ladies championship this year And why in the world would I know that except that I was watching

Sue play for Florida and I Even did that when I was in Dallas.

I'd come into channel and nobody's talking you. Hey, what's going on? We're watching Sue You know, it's like oh this is exciting in here and channel is great

Okay So I'd go searching for it in the in the hotel room on you know ESPN or something like that and we'd we'd watch the game or something like that, but so you all are doing a

Cross -country drive type thing here. Is that what so no, it's there and back. We came just to see you actually

Longer drive than you expected a little bit isn't it exciting between here and and Southern, California Isn't it?

Just beautiful. That's great That 80 mile stretch we didn't know

Yeah, well it night it's not very pretty No those of us who have driven it many times there's really nothing there

That's why they blew up nuclear weapons and stuff out there because there's nothing to kill. So Yeah, it's it's not all that pretty but you did come at a wonderful time

We had record heat yesterday. You just barely missed that and it's actually gonna cool down over the next couple days.

So That's actually better. But if you want to have 107 degrees or something like that, you just you just missed it.

Oh, it's a shame So you all are out

Visiting my daughter I guess and I'm a little concerned about what it's gonna happen when we let you guys loose after you leave

It's gonna be scary but now Lane, I guess we're supposed to be doing something a little bit later on a

Recording and as this a video webcast Yeah, this is um, I'm doing a podcast and this is gonna be the first video one and you're gonna be the first We'll do that and That'll be up on your

YouTube page. I would imagine right you're not gonna be putting on my YouTube because that would help my stats so anyway

And so tell us a little bit about some of the people that you Feature, I know you've got a lot of Paul washers material

Paul washer. Um, I just posted something by Phil Johnson just not Is he the creationist

Phil Johnson or the grace to you Yeah grace to you pyromaniacs

Phil Johnson Who else to have I have a lot of cross TV stuff with Mark Keillor. Yeah, great great stuff

Yeah, really high -quality production. Yeah I remember watching the first one of those and I was going

I've heard this somewhere before And then I realized they were just using the

Potter's Freedom, right? So, well, that's excellent and you got a lot of a lot of people that really appreciate that and it takes a long time

You know, I first started YouTube videos man, I was cranking about right and left and it's like man this takes forever you know and and and It's one thing when it works, right?

But what really gets frustrating is when you run up against a wall and you've got one video you've worked so hard on but there's

One part of it that's just you know, crashing the encoder or something, you know, and it just oh

Just sucks the life out of you. It's like, ah, it's rough but you keep you keep working on as best you can so we appreciate that work and now now sue you

I Was gonna go, you know, I didn't ask you about what I was gonna talk to you about her dad, but But I was just gonna ask it.

It just must be you know, I would imagine everyone recognizes that Collegiate sports is filled with with wonderful Christian people and That's um, it must be very easy to have a testimony of the

Lord because everybody's Christian And everyone's pure as a driven snow and There's no

I mean I watch the sidelines Even during the ladies games and I don't want you to be specific, but I saw a few coaches

It's really angry and I I just can't imagine they're just going. Oh darn all the time during those during the during the breaks

Because it looked like their eyes were about to explode out of their heads a couple times They looked so angry at what was going on in the court and stuff like that So is it is it pretty easy being a

Christian in college sports? It's it's very difficult

But you kind of just have to have a filter on at all times basically. Yeah, but you're always being watched You're always being watched

You are definitely just a living testimony and especially if you're very vocal about your faith and you really put it out there

It's not easy by any means but it's a very high -pressure situation at all times, you know

Not only are you being watched on your faith? You're being watched on everything you do, right? So but you know and how you respond to adversity and getting getting yelled at by the coach and everything else

Where did you all finish this year? What was your final ranking? Um, I can't remember our exact ranking

We had gotten as high up as number nine in the country, right? But I think we ended around like late teens because we kind of fell off in the month of February But we we made it to the second round of the

NCAA tournament and hey, let's let's face it you you lost to Connecticut and Connecticut Pretty much beat everybody.

Yeah, the way they beat us in the second round is the way they won the national championship Yeah, yeah, it just seemed to me that I don't know aside from having some really really really good players

Just hit their shots. They just seemed to Execute constantly

The other team might do it for a while But they just couldn't keep up the consistency over time that they did and that's why they just you just watch the points and it's

First it's pretty close and then they start pulling away and then it just gets bigger and bigger until the end of the game

It's like yeah Yeah, it was it was it was pretty amazing to watch him grind through everybody.

So but no, I Obviously as we would watch the games and I would watch

What would happen? I just I couldn't handle that Because you know people's oh, well you you know, you do debates with Muslims in London And so it's totally different because you're talking about someone

Getting in your face and you're doing the best you can and they're just screaming their their you know

Their lungs out and I'd be sitting there going now. There's no need for that kind of language

That's not gonna work in that situation. I realize that so I couldn't

I couldn't I couldn't do that kind of thing It's a there's too much pressure. I don't know how he does it.

Yeah, my pastor in Florida he He came I had to sit out a year because I transferred he would come to those games whenever I was sitting out and you

Know enjoying I'm talking with me about him and then the year that I was playing didn't show up to one Exact reason he told me you couldn't have it too much pressure.

Yeah, you can handle it. I have I understand that there were a couple times

I And I know this is ridiculous, but but I've always felt that if I watch a team

I want to see when they're gonna lose. I just feel like I'm a bad luck guy, you know So I just sort of like, you know or or you know

You'd take a shot and let's say would rim out or something like that And and I just have this real real desire to like flip over to CNN.

No, not even CNN No, fuck something like that Okay, they're not gonna play the replay good.

Okay, I'm back in you know that type of thing So there's there is that kind of pressure But it was sort of fun watching and channel.

You'd see everybody changing their Knicks I don't know if anybody ever told you about this, but I never saw this part. Yeah, but I would change your

Knicks to like Grace Su fan and Wonky, I don't know if one gave her did it but He couldn't spell

Su fan. But anyways, we'd all be putting Su fan at the end of our Knicks and channel And so it was sort of a family thing

But so anyway, it's it's good to have you I keep saying kids cuz It's kind of old

Yeah lanes lane sees lanes got the the black the black birthday of 3 -0

Staring down out in there. So I mean he's already having to have knee surgery

Stuff like this and man I tell you I keep telling I keep telling my kids once you you get over that tipping point is

Accelerates man. It's like you're just going straight You can beat me in basketball stuff. Well, she lets me win

That would be interesting to watch You can't just stand out at three -point range and drain them

Uh, we go back and forth because as tall as he is he's also a three -point shooter So summer and I probably wouldn't want to take you guys on Well, it's good to have you guys out here and I just wanted to Get you over the nervousness, so, you know, you're all sitting

I mean you've had TV cameras in your face and stuff like that the

NCAA tournament or something like that and it's like But that's the dividing webcast 48 people listening.

Oh, you know But anyways, well, thanks for being on the program with me today.

And like I said you all need to They'll keep it calm today. You know, I don't want to be getting any phone calls

Ripping up Phoenix, you know It's going whoo me. No, it never happened. So But anyways, well, thanks for being here.

I want you to stick around a second and we've got a couple minutes for the break and We're actually got a fellow on the phone so you can all listen to how it sounds when we do the big radio shoe here and Who knows maybe

Harold and Conyers Georgia will have a question for you guys because who who's the George? You're the Georgia? Georgia from where Marietta Marietta.

Alrighty, so let's talk with Harold. Hi Harold. How you doing? Hey, I'm doing great How are you doing?

Pretty good Hey, I just come just calling up with a question with regard to solo scriptura.

Alrighty Well, first of all, I'm a reformed Baptist so I I do believe in accord with the

London Baptist Confession of Faith and the infallibility of scriptures and their Conficiency for all the needs of the church including salvation life little nervous here

No, no reason to be nervous I understand why the canon is the canon that is by virtue of it having been inspired in the end up authored by God Who is the absolute authority and therefore the church does not need for the revelation from Rome to make the canon what it is

Well, because God did that when he inspired it, right? So my question has to do with how

God led his church to recognize his word throughout the centuries Understand is she hears voice through the

Spirit of God. So this is my question Would you say that the only means outside of a person for a person to recognize the scriptures is?

To be inspired in reality Would be the quickening of the Spirit of God Also, would you say could you say something about the what are the inherent at the inherent attributes of Scripture that would demonstrate their origin?

That their origin is from God Well, let me ask you real quickly, have you seen my book scripture alone

Okay, there's about two chapters on this subject and I think they'll be of assistance to you and it's it's difficult to Go back over the fundamental issues there but I'll try to summarize it as best

I can because it is a common question and The problem is the vast majority of works that you will read

Approach the issue of the canon from a historical rather than theological perspective

What I mean by that is if you read FF Bruce or some of the others what they do is they they they look back on History and they go.

Okay This early church father gives us this information and this early writer gives us this information and so we can sort of see that These were the kinds of standards that were going through people's heads as they dealt with issues of what was and what was not scripture and It is recognized by most people that Marcian for example

Raised a lot of interest in the subject of the canon scripture because he altered what was being used as scripture

He made alley he not only changed for example the texts themselves

Taking out anything that was positive about the Old Testament or about the Jewish people But he also rejected certain books because there were certain books.

You just you couldn't even bother to edit it There was just too much Old Testament it like Hebrews isn't like that, right?

What would you have left if you took the Old Testament of Hebrews, you know? but That's how most look at the subject of the canons if you can you can look back that direction

I approach it from a different a different way and it's not that that isn't valuable and important it is but for some reason

The vast majority of discussions on the subject of the canon do not start with asking a theological question and yet Isn't the canon a theological issue?

It's not just a historical issue I mean how the canon is recognized over time is historical

But the nature of the can itself is a theological question and so it seemed to me that first and foremost a person has to have a theological understanding of What the canon is and how the can is formed and so that's why in the book.

I present the idea that that and this is this is the terminology but that the the canon is an

Artifact of revelation it is an artifact of revelation. It is something that comes into existence by necessity in light of God's act of revelation and I use the illustration of You know a personal illustration and that is

I've written a certain number of books And I've done that over a certain period of time a period of time

Actually now I think about it longer than certain people in this room have been alive and So it's it's it takes time but not longer than other people

So I just wanted to get that out there, but but the as soon as I wrote the first book a

Canon of my writings came into existence now I did not have to take out a piece of paper and Put at the top the canon of my writings

And then write the fatal flaw and then answers the Catholic claims and letters to a

Mormon elder That is the first three books are out, but I did not have to have a list someplace a canon comes into existence by necessity once an author

Produces something in in writing and So I think it's important to recognize this and we in regards to scripture the reason it can exist is because God has inspired at least one book and He has not inspired all books

I found your argument interesting that it would be absurd for the God who created us with an insatiable desire to communicate

Or it would be it would be irrational to expect him to not then communicate at all

Well, of course But the point is the point is his his his active inspiration has not been all books

Obviously, right there is a limit to it So once God began that process of revelation the canon came into existence and God knew what it was

Even if nobody else at that point in time did so the first thing to remember is the canon is not something that is created by an external act outside of Revelation itself the canon must be completely divine

That is it is first and foremost known infallibly by God And so what

I did in my book is I did for it differentiate between canon 1 which is God's knowledge of the canon which is infallible and perfect and is as a result of his revelation and Canon 2 which is our knowledge of what

God has done and canon 2 has to be Differentiated from canon 1 if you if you squish them together you end up with The Roman Catholic claim that the church is the one that creates canon if you don't recognize

What these issues are in regards to the canon being an artifact of revelation and then

I raise this question What is God's intention in?

Giving us Scripture Why has God revealed himself now if God? Revealed in his scriptures and if he didn't actually let us know what they were then we might not even be able to know this

But if God for example revealed in the scriptures that he just wanted to sort of give a willy -nilly Revelation that some people might get and some people might not they didn't hit really have a purpose in it

Then he wouldn't have to put out any effort for us to know what scripture was But the scriptures actually tell us what his purpose in giving us revelation is there are these interesting passages for example the end of the book of Romans Paul makes the statement that that these things were written down in former generations for our benefit for our

Encouragement and so we find these texts and scripture It tells us that God has a purpose for his church to possess and know the scriptures

And so the question then becomes all right What what effort is

God going to put out to fulfill his own self -stated purpose in? the giving of the scriptures exactly that that's exactly what my question right and so and so When when you say when you ask the second part of your question

And this evil thought just crossed my mind. I should say now having said that suit take it

I'm just gonna stop just freeze silence it just what see if make sure summer took a picture right then and there as The look of horror across the cross

Sue's face It would be sort of similar to all of a sudden her realizing she just shot at the wrong basket and drained it

Connecticut appreciates that anyways But I will not do that because I am a merciful man

And she's from Georgia and you're from Georgia so we have to be nice to people in Georgia because they really need us to be nice to them anyways, but I Think about Ordo and channel.

I mean Man, I'm gonna tell you something. So the tambourine lady. Yes, indeed. Oh, no,

Katie Bo is coming in now, too This is gonna get crazy anyhow I'm not trying to take the question on seriously, but In answer to the second part of your question, they'll see that's where most people focus themselves is.

All right But what was the process? Can we know and notice what you in in making the statement what you said would be the this this idea of Holy Spirit inspiration just be aware of the fact that Roman Catholic apologists, especially

Love to jump on that. They love to jump on That claim because what they'll do and they're they're sharp some of them.

Anyways, what they'll do is they will read you Texts and they'll say does the

Holy Spirit tell you that's inspired or not and they'll pull some out of the apocrypha They'll some pull some out like Augustine and then they'll pull stuff out of these obscure parts of the

Old Testament that unfortunately most of us have never read And caused tremendous confusion as a result because the fact the matter is

That's not how it has happened. And that's not how it happens today God has used his people and God has used godly men and godly churches in the past in The process of bringing his people to recognize not canon 1

But canon 2 canon 1 exists because guys inspired scripture canon 2 is our knowledge of what?

God has done and I say that God will put forth just as much effort as is necessary for him to fulfill his purposes in Giving the scriptures and inspiring the scriptures in the first place

Since the scriptures are meant for the edification of the church and to function as that foundation upon which he stands then that process that took place which interestingly enough and this is where a lot of Christians get lost because they don't know church history and Both of you.

I'm sure you guys I could I could start throwing up church history names and you guys just be batting them around Like anything, right?

Yeah, yeah I Mean like putting Irenaeus into the into the right, you know century stuff like that.

Yeah. Okay. Anyways Clement of Rome Okay the time period that that was in effect between the end of the writing of the

Old Testament scriptures and their recognition and function as scriptures during the time of Jesus ministry is

Almost identical to the time frame that we see the canon developing in the New Testament And this is this is why

I have so often Insisted that when Roman Catholic apologists in essence taking the position of the agnostic

Want to question our knowledge of the New Testament scriptures They run afoul of the process that brought about the

Old Testament canon Jesus clearly held men accountable for what God had spoken in the

Old Testament. There's no question about He said what what what the Bible said you see what the scriptures that exactly have you not read what

God said to you saying Matthew chapter 22, right? What was the process?

How long did it take? And was there an infallible? Magisterium that decided it the answer is clearly no and it's interesting to me that in the exact same time period of About 400 years you have the very similar process taking place of the

New Testament that you had with the Old Testament If you didn't have to have some Roman Magisterium when there was no

Roman Magisterium during the first 400 years anyways But if you had didn't have a Roman Magisterium in the

Old Testament, you don't have to have that for the New Testament either That's that's another key issue that I raise in the book, but that's

I forget which chapters there I could look them up here for you, but you you have it you have it there I think it's chapters five and six something around that area where I go into this entire discussion.

So Hopefully the written version will allow you to review it more slowly than the spoken version does but maybe the two of them together

We'll make it a little bit easier for you. Sure, and I really appreciate it one of the things I'm just really trying to understand and I'll be

Being proud to try to be real careful reading the the text trying to take and understand your arguments very clearly

And but one of the things that's been I really bring Having a lot of questions in my mind is how is it that we

What are the Means by which God uses through the rich God Shows us what are the inherent attributes of Scripture?

So with that we know what they are in reality Okay. Well, I'll tell you what

Harold I'm gonna put you on hold just a second And I'd like to discuss a little bit of that on the other side of the break and we'll we'll continue it then, okay

Okay. Hold on just a second. All right, eight seven seven seven five three three three four one

We're gonna take our break and I'll let you guys escape from this warming up Studio, thanks for being on the program.

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Thank you And we'll go back to the dividing line we are talking with Harold from Conyers, Georgia and now now the the question you have

Repeat it for me because you're talking about the inherent attributes of Scripture, right?

Well, basically my question has to do is What are the inherent attributes of Scripture that would demonstrate their origin so that we would know what they are in reality?

Well, keep in mind that I would argue that to even be able to recognize these things would require a spiritual aspect what

I mean by that is I've really been taken recently with Luke 24 45 and Jesus's statements after his resurrection that he he had to open their the minds of these believing men

Believing Jewish men so they might understand the scriptures and they might If we're in this instance see the scriptures testimony to him as the

Messiah, and so there seems to be If you follow the discussion through the

Psalter you look at Paul and Romans 1 there seems to be an inherent Attribute of sin that darkens the mind specifically in reference to recognition of God's Word and obedience to God's Word, so I'm answering this question in regards to the

Christian What would the Christian see as those inherent? elements of God's Word that point to its perfection inspiration and and so this is something that the man of God would recognize and I think it's an excellent question one that we should ponder on More than we do we should meditate about because for me one of the things that has

Become very important to me in in thinking on that and in in Recognizing the the perfection of God's Word and the the spiritual nature of God's Word Has has been the consistency of that word across 1 ,500 years of Inspiration across multiple languages and and all the change that took place in in the nation of Israel then as the scriptures went out into into the

Roman Empire to see the consistency that is found in all these different authors and all their different life experiences and Yet to find the scriptures to be consistent harmonious with themselves

This is the very area that is under attack in in our day, and I think it is because It is what the man of God comes to to see to sense to experience

And it's not something that I can necessarily give to somebody else It's not I can sit here and talk about it until the cows come home, but it is only when you have

Taught through the Word of God it is only when you have Preached to the Word of God when you have studied it when you have not run away from the tough things not run away from the

Difficult text but have worked through them that you come to recognize this and you come to embrace this as a a

Precious element of of one's inheritance as one of the people of God is what God has revealed for us in in his scriptures

And it is right here that I think there are so many today That they they start encountering this and because So much of the preaching and teaching in in the church today lacks authority it lacks

That element of exhortation that would cause us to grow in faith

They end up turning away at the very point where they could discover the greatest treasure of the

Word of God They they because they're they're professors In so many seminaries are not men of God in the sense of being churchmen

They don't have that sense of of being ambassadors for Christ. They offer them an easier way

In fact, I'm sure you've heard this but if you haven't I think it's important people recognize that when

Bart Ehrman Went from Moody to Wheaton and then to Princeton and he was first at Princeton He wrote this lengthy paper on the text in Mark chapter 2 where he discussed the issue of Abbie Athar in the days of Abbie Athar the high priest and One of his professors wrote on his paper

Rather than interacting with what he said and think of that. He wrote his paper. Maybe mark just made a mistake and It was that that opened the floodgates for Bart Ehrman to be the

Agnostic enemy of the Christian faith that he is today It's almost like he liked so many or it was just fighting for to hold on to tradition that he held.

Yes Oh, well, he was there's no question. I mean, let's let's I wasn't even addressing the fact that obviously from my perspective

Bart Ehrman There are so many people Who have a crust of religion and yet They don't have the the changed heart and as a result are are eventually going to experience either that kind of apostasy or an apostasy that leads them into some form of heresy that that shouldn't surprise us because that's what the

Bible actually teaches about Those who are not truly of us. They will go out from us. They will either go out from us as heretics

Causing people to follow after them or in this case an agnostic but the point being that the professor's response is what most people experience in the vast majority of theological seminaries today and so Given that that is the case that easy way out of just basically saying well, you know what?

I don't have to worry about Maintaining I don't have to do the hard work of Finding how the scripture expresses itself and the consistency over time things like that.

They don't have to do that So in answer to your question for me the the the the most fundamental element of the scripture that would that would

Demonstrate that it is divine is that if God is truth, then the scriptures themselves will be true, but it takes effort to work through the many difficulties that Come from the richness of this revelation being spread over 1 ,500 years

It's a whole lot easier if you have just one guy write one book Well, that's true, but it's still gonna be a whole lot easier than trying to get people over 1 ,500 years to agree with each other

And and and it we cannot You know, there's there's much to be said in allowing each of the writers to have their own

Particular ways of saying things their own emphases all of that is is true and there's great depth to be found in that But it is it is when you put all of that together that you really see the the beauty of what scripture really is and I probably haven't haven't expressed that really well, but There's all sorts of illustrations that pop into my mind as to as to how that that could be described

But that to me would be the the first and most basic inherent quality of scripture is the is that it reflects its author

And it does so with with consistency over time So that's where I'd go as as a start to the answer of of that question

But we've now been talking for a long long long time Your answer and your ministry as as I've been very much in a in a culture of King James only of them and and I've just sort of basically read it with a with a staunch

Almost wanting to just prove it at every end and that but but reading it very carefully I mean,

I've been able to come out of come out of that and I've learned much of much of the doctrines of grace

Yeah, I certainly Appreciate your ministry Well, I appreciate that Harold and of course you hadn't mentioned that at the start obviously

I think one of the the greatest dangers of King James only ism as a movement is the fact that That that very discussion.

We just had you really can't have Within the King James only Because even ask those questions is actually considered to be questioning into the faith

Why even asking right right exactly and Then so thinking people who then encounter the

Bart Ehrman's of the world are really left with no place to go if they if that's all

They know is there and that's that's one of the reasons. I'm very thankful. The King James only controversy is has been out there

So anyway, thank you Harold for your phone call today. Thank you so much and have a wonderful day.

All right. God bless Thank you. Bye eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. Let's talk with Mike. Hi Mike Hi, dr.

White, how are you doing good? Great. I have actually a question and a request if you don't mind

Can I start with a question? Sure I have recently gotten a job where I'm able to Ride around with different people while they're training me and it's been a great opportunity to witness to many many people and one person that I've encountered is

Is a Very skeptical person who apparently grew up there was pressure to be

You know going after Becoming a pastor or something by his mom and Apparently along the way he that can be a recipe for disaster.

Yeah, and it seems to have been in this case he seems apparently to have come across somebody who is

I'm Put him on to some weird stuff. He the first thing he encountered me with was or the first thing he

Confronted me with was something about someone named Lilith. He said, you know Lilith is right? I was like no in the dark about that one

But after he brought it up to me I went and looked at a few articles and read up on the list and you know the history behind this this person this character but he's he's got a lot of Weird Objections it to me weird

I guess I'm sure you've encountered these things like know that there's no way the Egyptians could have built those pyramids themselves and I mean to me.

I thought it was just simple mathematics that that was you know, allowing them to do those things But I mean, there's a lot of different things

He's wanting me to read a book called the fingerprints of the God that has to do with the basically in South America You know those those pictures you can see from the sky in the cornfields and whatnot, yeah, yeah

Yeah, there's there's no end To the the the material you can find all you gotta listen to I gotta do is listen to coast -to -coast

An art bell for a while and you'll be able to find anybody And anything if you want to put your faith into stuff like that There's there's there's no end of where you can go with all that kind of stuff.

There's no question about that I didn't know if you had any good resources With the gospel and you know,

I mean, there's not much that I can do. I know I'm praying for him Yeah, well, I would say that was with someone like that First of all, all of us have to make decisions at some point in light of what

Jesus himself taught us Concerning whether we have gotten to the point where we are no longer

Being wise with our stewards of our time when we're talking to someone I mean I think we need to err on the side of patience in those situations, but Eventually, we do have to make those decisions

This this person is still creating the image of God and God's law still has an impact upon that person's soul and So you might just be very straightforward and say look it seems to me

Like you're grabbing hold of all sorts of things that are not only highly dubious that do not have the kind of historical foundation or consistency to them that the

Christian gospel does but it also seems like they're all sort of designed to let you get away from the fact that God's law says that you are an adulterer in your heart that you are you know, you've lied you've stolen you've done all these things and that the the penalty of God's law is this and sometimes that's the best way just cut past all of the

Smoke that they're blowing to try to try to you know, cover all that stuff up still

Unless the Spirit of God works upon upon the man's heart obviously being a consistent witness being an individual who lives a consistent

Christian life can be a great help, but sometimes just being very straightforward at that point is the best thing you can do for someone who's off playing with the

Lilith art bells of the internet. Yeah. Yeah, I've actually I've had I've had the pleasure of being able to confront someone very straightforwardly with the gospel and just just witnessing the power of the message and and cut right through their excuses and their

And their objections and it was really something to see and so yeah, I'm praying for him and I appreciate the advice he just basically says

You know, he just knows that not everything is in that book in that Bible, you know And that's what he's told me many times and so, you know

Well, you know obviously I think part of what I was just saying to Harold might be relevant there and that is

Okay, so you you know, not everything's in there but you can show me something else where you have 40 different authors over 1 ,500 years that present this this

Concerto of harmonious testimony to the coming Messiah. You can you can you find that in your

Lilith literature? I don't think so But anyways, you said you said you said you had a had a request

Yes, I do. I live in Columbus, Ohio Yes, sir, which is a city of well over I think we're pretty well over a million people now

And I just moved back here from Bible College. I was up in northern, Wisconsin going to Bible College and I grew up in an independent fundamental

Baptist Church Which has since gotten away from the original fundamentalist type, you know

Practice I guess you could say yes And I'm having some real difficulties there and I'm coming to the point where I had

I have to look for another church and There are no Reform Baptist churches in Columbus that I can find anywhere.

I've gone to a couple Presbyterian churches and met with the Woman pastor and you can't see my fingers with the quotation marks, but I'm making them.

Yes And this woman actually never didn't even know who Machen was or what

Westminster Theological Seminary was. Of course not really but if I mean even if you would pray and if others would pray they're listening to your show about starting a

Reform Baptist Church in Columbus, Ohio Or that the Lord would just you know cause that to happen here

Because we need a solid witness here and it's and there's there's a lot of places There's a lot of places where there needs to be something now.

I I don't know off the top of my head Have you looked at Pharisee calm? F a r e se dot -com

Someone in channel just posted Parsons Baptist Church in Parsons Avenue in Columbus, Ohio, which is supposed to be a founders friendly church

So if you go to pharisee .com or founders the founders website, I think it's founders org

Tom Askel's ministry see what you can find there in the area and then

I've got great friends in the OPC Church where they do not have women pastors And the

Orthodox Presbyterian Church go to their website see what they have in that area OPC, okay

Those are those are going to be the first places to look to see what's in your in your in your general area

I've known of people who literally drive an hour and a half on Sundays to to get to a decent place to worship and You know that there are places where that is the case.

There's there's no question about it but Check those out first and and then we can certainly pray that the

Lord would provide For his people in that area a sound place of witness and testimony

Okay, all right Mike Eight seven seven seven five three three three four

Someone had taken over my Another one of my Knicks in channel, there's been much mischief out here

You're in studio and the the channel rats have taken over your office that is not good

I'm waiting for that YouTube camera to get fired up and oh boy Thankfully, it is disconnected at the moment, and I don't think they'd be able to figure out how to get working.

But Let me tell you something There's there right now. There's only there's only

Seven minutes left in the program and retribution will be swift and it will be eternal

I'm sitting I'm sitting here trying to do the Lord's work. And what are they doing? I tell you man.

I tell you anyways Young people and middle -aged people it's it's rough

I'll let you all figure out who the middle -aged people are and I'm not gonna get into that All right, as we finish up the the program today

I wanted to get back to a section of the discussion between Dan Barker and Bart Ehrman Right at the end of the program last time

Dan had mentioned he was going to be debating one of those a conservative Bible type guys. That was me

And I I just really really wish he had mentioned my name Because then can you imagine what partner?

It Would have been interesting but anyway Here's this is as far we got before.

I think there's an interesting comment coming up here. Let's say let's see and In your first book that I well

One of the books I just read of yours. I'm misquoting Jesus you talk about the problem of the Trinity in the New Testament right, so The the standard doctrine of course is that the that the

Trinity there there are three persons But one God so father son, Holy Spirit all three are

God. They're distinct from one another, but there's only one God and I mean the smartest theologians have always said that it's a mystery because you can't understand it

And if you if you try it, if you think you understand it, you don't understand it Yeah, well, you know

I was sort of wondering why Dan Barker didn't you know go into a little more depth in his

Critique of the Trinity in our debate and you know, it could have just been a matter of time But the reality is

I don't get much evidence that either Dan Barker or Bart Ehrman Really have any in -depth criticism to offer of the doctrine of Trinity because I don't see any evidence

They have any in -depth knowledge of the doctrine of the Trinity to begin with I Really?

I know it'll never happen But I would love To have the opportunity of engaging

Ehrman on his claims that well Yeah, John clearly does present the deity of Christ, but Matthew Mark Luke now they got no no concept

I would just just love To go through the text and the synoptic Gospels to say okay, so you're telling me that a monotheistic

Jewish writer Described Jesus in these ways and yet he didn't believe in the deity of Christ now what you're saying

I I just I would love to have the opportunity and of course The other host there, you know, that's strange math

Well, it's not strange math when you recognize one being and three persons

That's not one plus one plus one equals three That's just basic level ignorance of the topics being addressed is what you've got there

What I argue in misquoting Jesus is that this doctrine is not actually taught explicitly in the

New Testament Except in one passage in the book of 1st John so here comes the

Kami Ohanian now this is I It's very clear to me that Dan Barker has learned about the

Kami Ohanian from reading Bart Ehrman. That's it. He didn't know about it He admits he did not know till about 10 years ago

And now he's reading Ehrman and that means he hasn't read Erasmus He hasn't read any of the original materials on this and so all he's gotten is

Ehrman's less than balanced presentation here And evidently does not recognize that Christian scholarship in defense of the doctrine

The Trinity is in no way shape or form Dependent upon the Kami Ohanian, but this passage turns out wasn't originally in the

New Testament It was added much much later than the original New Testament I thought that was fascinating to find that and the

Vulgate right the Catholic Church inserted that now did you catch that the Catholic Church? Again such such anachronism as if the the cat, you know drone translates this and no that's that's not where it's coming from and So well the

Catholic Church must have inserted it and and this idea as if the Catholic Church could insert things

Into the text is just such naive historiography that it's it's it's truly

Incredible to hear that kind of a statement being made by Dan Barker It is in the Vulgate and so it came down in the

Latin Bible But it wasn't around in the Greek Bible, which of course the New Testament was originally written in Greek Eventually got into the

English Bibles. And so it became a standard feature of English Bibles For well for a long time now,

I can't tell you how many times when I was a preacher I quoted that There are three that bear record in heaven the

Father the Word and the Holy Ghost and these three are one and I said it With such authority believing that was the

Word of God and yet now you tell us that I was deceived Well, it's in the King James Bible But the reason it's in the

King James Bible is because an early editor of the Greek New Testament Erasmus Decided to put it into his

Bible because he got so much flack for originally leaving it out we left it out because there weren't any manuscripts in Greek that had it but but Now some have turned up that are well over a thousand years after the original

So it wasn't originally there. So again basic information

That you know Dan seems to feel like I'm somehow mean to point out that he himself in his own words has said his theological education was glorified

Sunday school and He got a a bachelor's degree in Religion without knowing anything about the text of New Testament nothing about its textual critical background its history any of those things

And you know, there's nothing wrong with that lots of people unfortunately are in the exact same boat

What bothers me is when he then tells people in debates that he's translated most of the

New Testament and all the rest of stuff That's where the two I don't see fitting together very well at all because if he actually had translated most of the

New Testament He's sort of hard to miss those little squiggles in the bottom of the page Called the textual critical apparatus unless of course he was only using a

TR and then there wouldn't be down there to begin with Anyway, we'll continue in listening to this. There's not there's only a couple minutes left the next time on the program

Thanks to Lane and sue for being on the program today. However, if I go in my office and find anything has been disturbed

By well, anyway, we'll tell you what happens on the next program. See you then The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

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